From Paris Hilton to Andy Burnham: Sean & Helena's Lord Brennan Interview Debrief

0:00I never thought we would talk about the things we have spoken about. We've covered Paris Hilton, importantly. We've covered Theresa May.

0:15Welcome back to the Drowning Sound podcast. And welcome home, Helena, because it's been ages since we've done an episode together. I know. And that's partly because I filled my diary with interviews and things. and also because we got the studio time on days that were days that you could do. Yeah, and partly because I'm trying to work maybe three jobs in five days. But thanks for coming in today. We're going to talk a little bit about my conversation in the last episode with Lord Brennan, an interview which got moved a few times. Sorry for all the emails you were CC'd on about it being moved around because we were trying to do it together.

0:54Originally, it was going to happen in Hull at the Music Cities conference and then his train got cancelled and he couldn't even be at the conference which led Sam from Get Kate Where Kate Fly to make a special presentation about the fan-led review which was really interesting. Sam was great he was so moving to speak and to talk through as a musician how important his fans are to him and how important they are to the music scene and how governments and the music industry are listening to fans so it was really good and then it just got moved around a bunch of times there was a whole bunch of things that kind of like are swirling around my head after the conversation but not to ask you to mark my homework but what were some things you took away from it i think one of the main things i took away is just it's nice to hear somebody who's in the house of lords talk like that yeah and you're like oh are some of them human what so that was good it's nice to know that okay there are people within this government that have the backs of music fans I thought his view on Andy Burnham was quite interesting and I know that he said he gave the government half a tick for their the previous government this was half a tick for their implementation or their response to the fan-led review.

2:20And he's hoping he can give a full tick to Andy Burnham and his government soon. But I suppose what I was left with are like a few gaps of how important is this really going to be to Andy Burnham as he's just come in as the new prime minister. Is he going to have quite a few other things on top of his priority list rather than music fans? I don't think he should, but I have a feeling he is going to well it's also that thing of like how do you juggle Iran and Trump and that on one hand trying to solve social care like you know how much you can get done in a week like although he has the whole government at his disposal like it's a lot of people's delegate to yeah I don't know it feels like how you prioritize like not even something be learning school really is it like how do you set like obviously editorial and editorializing is about selecting well this is the headline and this story should be on the front page and this like we obviously do that in amongst a lot of what we do day to day but like how is a government are you going to say that i don't know the unfairness of ticket touts is more important than i don't know kids with send needs getting the support they need or nationalizing the water services or dealing with the like droughts all across the country right now which could lead to like host not just host bike pans but like people not being able to turn the taps on at home right right i think part of the problem is how separate we as a society and also therefore the government view all these different things and how i mean as we've been trying to do with this podcast show like the interconnectedness of politics and music or politics and everything like everything everything is politics and i think if the if the powers that be could have a bit more of of that understanding that everything is connected that music is for a public good then they might be able to implement things quicker but unfortunately as lord brennan was saying in your interview it sounds like it doesn't work that way like i think i think you asked um you know how do you how do you actually like get something done or get something through in the government and he said you have to have a clear ask of the government yeah and i thought that was interesting because it was quite funny to me actually because it was almost like he was being like talk to them like children he was saying yeah they're not that smart you know prompts them like they're a five year old yeah exactly he was like have a clear have a it was like your your beginning and your middle and your end yeah it was really like that but that really signaled to me that yeah i think governments are trying to tackle one sort of problem at the time and forgetting about the interconnectedness of everything yeah well i think that asking one thing like i thought it was interesting like the fan-led review is filling a gap because there's no body that represents music fans and one of its findings was to create a body that represents music fans because although all music fans have different priorities an organization which can pick its battles is going to be really important and i don't think that necessarily all of the like for instance uk music is an umbrella organization that has to represent a lot of different parts and scales of the industry like someone that's signed to domino for a small deal versus someone that's a global superstar on universal like but that all runs through the same umbrella organization it's like there's a lot of latitude longitude latitude width and width rather than depth and breadth um or both and like the musicians union represents all musicians that could be anyone from someone that plays oboe in an orchestra through to a music teacher right through to someone that's headlining glastonbury so the features artist coalition kind of sits in it so it's like there's a lot of different groups of people with different wants and needs and desires and like you hear a little bit of between like the music venues trust and the live organizations like music venues trust representing the grassroots venues whereas live has to also represent live nation and some of the big companies that are part members of their organizations they can't speak necessarily always from the same hymn sheet and the association of independent festivals is going to have different priorities than the festival industry in general or so i think there's like as an industry there's a lot of different shapes to the business side of it but it's also like if you come back to the public good of it like there's not a lot of bodies that represent like i don't know free events at the south bank center or something like that's not something that's as prioritized as can we make sure that adele makes as much money as possible because her copyright is not being ripped off exactly and that's exactly it there needs to be a focus and i would hope that andy burnham as a music fan and hopefully he is as big a music fan as he says he is not just trying to be cool yeah um there needs to be a focus on what going to a gig or a free show or being able to even have the opportunity to buy a ticket for five pounds would do for society in general i don't know whether this is this just comes from from me like growing up in a asian immigrant household where creativity music arts whatever it is was seen as like a side project or a hobby but i do think that there's like a wide a wider like societal hobbification of creativity when in reality what do we have if we don't have creativity i mean we have we have nothing like if you didn't have people that were making the tv shows you love making the music you love you you you look outside and everybody's walking around with headphones there's something playing in their ears and if you didn't have that what would what would society be what would we be running on and i would love someone in the government to say that so this is joining sound podcast brought you in partnership with kobuzz and every week we make a companion playlist and this week helena you're going to make your mid-year mix i've already made mine emma wilkes who does her newsletter's done hers what's going to be on yours do you think first question are there any rules about the mid-year mix should really be music that came out since the start of january that's about the only rule okay unfortunately i've only been listening to the national on repeat do this the same song over and over again that could be a 12 song playlist there was once a um pop justice playlist of bad romance 12 times and it was just a playlist entitled something like the greatest songs of all time stop it that is amazing um but yeah we'll be able to find the playlist at drowninsound.org forward slash playlists and you'll find all the recent playlist including my mid-year mix which has got a big banger from robin on it it's got that amazing track with massive attack and tom waits um it's got some sophia is ella on there because i'm still obsessed and she's still consistently releasing music um some pva um ella was on the podcast earlier this year some art school girlfriend who was on the podcast earlier this year like i do book artists whose records i'm obsessed with so the playlist does overlap quite a bit the um helena do you want to give people a clue what might be on yours okay so i know i made that joke about the national but matt berninger does have a new song out front man of the national um which he released honestly about a week ago and i have not stopped listening to it at all it's called martini mi fatso and it's honestly bizarre and incredible when i saw him live he said that the that the song was about his relationship with god so take from that what you will i didn't get that from it but you know love is like a bottle of gin and god is like a martini is that how the logic of life works perhaps it is uh also what's going to be on there is um a very new and fresh artist who's releasing her debut album called naomi and blue truly this album is incredible if you need to um expel any of your female rage you've got to listen to this uh her latest single is called naive so i'm gonna put that on there and then maybe a bit of a curveball but olivia rodrigo i thought her new album's pretty pretty banging it is really it's it's actually her best album which says just how good the previous two have been nice um but there's some of the best songs she's written her on it as well i thought so as well yeah um so yeah go to try and sound orgs forward slash playlists and you can find helena's playlists my playlist all the companion ones from recent times plus get a 30-day free trial to co-buzz the slightly more ethical music streaming platform that pays artists more than all the others i used to love this idea that bill drummond had of no music day that he wanted to try and turn into like no music year oh what is this so bill drummond from the klf um i think he wrote a column in the observer or something years ago and the idea was that for one whole day you wouldn't listen to any music there'd be no music on the radio i think it was one of those other like all the radio stations would just have to be talk stations for a day no but how differently we would feel and i think one of his jokes was that there'd be a whole year when no new music was released so that when it was released again it would be really special right and i think it's that idea of like abundance and the overwhelm like those of us that live and breathe music like it's everywhere it's all around us for other people it's a bit overwhelming like you've got the entire history of music you listen to and also like 100 ,000 songs every day coming out in amongst all the AI slop and everything else that's going on.

12:57And I think coming back to this idea of like the value of music is something I've talked about on a lot of different episodes of the podcast. Like when iTunes set a song is 99p and a Napalm Death song that's like 14 seconds long is the same price as like a symphony that's nearly an hour long. Like 99p is just the same price for the same MPP mp3 file and like cds cost more or less the same vinyl costs more or less the same like the contents of it doesn't vary the price whereas the mona lisa is worth more than a drawing i've just done like no offense to my own artistic skills but no one is that interested in that versus and i think that a piece of music that helps at a time when you're heartbroken or helps when you're trying to break your personal best yeah or is that comfort that you need like that's got a different value than a piece of music that's running in the background of an advert right but the music that's running the background of an advert that artist is getting paid a lot more money than you listening to jeff buckley on repeat exactly exactly so i don't know what i'm trying to say is if we valued music not from its monetary output which is i think one of the things the fan led review does touch on really well like the communal value and the mental health benefits of music um i think as lord brennan said in the interview like the quasi-religious experience people have when they listen to music um we would think really differently because like for instance no one thinks about the entry price to go to church like and people do go to church for music and singing and prayer and all the different things like where would we think differently if music was not just this thing that you bought on a disc for a certain price or paid a subscription fee for but actually was something that like your doctor says right you're down in the dumps like here are five gig tickets yeah like isn't it that would be so much better than hey go for a run or try and go for a walk isn't it in germany or somewhere where they give like cultural vouchers to people yes i think it is i think it's definitely somewhere in europe yeah and you get like you can go to as many museums and gigs and things as you want i would honestly love that there are some companies um in the uk that do that in terms of they give their employees like a a culture um not a bonus like a culture what do you call it benefit a culture benefit yeah um and you can buy a ticket to a play or or probably the amount that a ticket is now to see a play probably like a quarter of a ticket to a play but yes you can go to a matinee on a tuesday in january it's um but yeah i think when i was at the bbc actually they didn't really do like staff bonuses but i remember that like i repeatedly broke my kpis my key performance indicators and i got some special like vouchers thing i could go and get stuff from yeah um and like i felt like if that had been like oh you could have got tickets to go see insert bands that i'm obsessed with then that would have been a really nice thing and i think that something i've been thinking a lot about with the report was around stage times and how late shows finish like imagine if your bosses were like it's okay to turn up to work at 11 tomorrow because you're going out and supporting nighttime economy and our culture Now, this, this, okay, this happens though, but with football.

16:41Yeah. You know when the World Cup's on? Oh, yeah. And how bosses, especially male bosses, become extremely lenient with their employees. They're like, oh, yeah, oh, you stayed up all night to watch that match. Yeah, well, of course you did because England were playing at 1am. Yeah. where is my leniency if i want to stay up to go to a gig late or i don't know listen to the national and cry where's my leniency i mean if we thought about it like students get half days on a wednesday don't they like normally the afternoons i think it's quite standard around the country and a lot of club nights like in london white heat used to be on a tuesday night because they knew that students wouldn't necessarily be in on a on a wednesday yeah like those shifts that we could make to our week so that our nighttime economy and culture could function better like not needing to do like tate lates but actually just being quite normal that you can leave work at three o 'clock if you're going to go and do something that's i don't know it feels like there could be adjustments made which would be beneficial to the workplace and the workforce and productivity and and it is interesting because not to sort of go back and rant about football but um for me when i'm listening to you know the lord brennan interview we're reading about the fan led review i'm like oh yeah you know it's amazing that the cultural benefits and the societal benefits and the public good and the mental health aspects of music are mentioned in the fan led review and you know the government is going to read that and whatever but like oh is it is like a stuffy politician ever really gonna recognize the cultural benefits of music but actually now i'm thinking about this i'm talking to you i'm like but they do that with football right they they there's been countless politicians mayors who have stood up and said oh you know and this is amazing because this brings us together as a country and like you know let's go england we're all behind you and and yeah and and there's leniency and everyone's relaxed and there's partying and there's great like camaraderie so it is actually possible to recognize that in a funny way the fan-led review follows the fan-led review of football right so like if you look at grassroots football and also grassroots athletics and things there's no expectation that those people are going to be successful they're not expecting to find wayne rooney from funding kids being able to play sport but they don't think the same when it's about someone learning to play guitar or piano or synths or yeah like and i don't know why we don't view like you say like just because the people in power happen to be football fans like if andy burnham is a music fan as he says he is i also do wonder are his dj sets a bit like those paris hilton ones where she was just pressing play do you remember there was this whole like news cycle around actually i think she's got quite good now i actually think she is i saw her calling out there was a video of her calling out these people in the front row that were holding signs saying like you're not djing properly or something and she she just like let them have it from the dj booth which i thought was quite funny also paris hilton has slowly become this like political force oh totally i mean like she's changed the law around those boarding schools which were not schools which were essentially torture camps for children um she is one of the people that we will look back on and think the way in which society kind of tortured her made her the kind of force that she's becoming yeah i actually i i do recommend watching um paris and love her reality tv series if that's something that uh tickles your pickle because she it was it was honestly fascinating um to get an insight into who she actually is as a person and this facade that she has put on being in the media spotlight for so long um i'm glad we don't really talk about her dj skills but yeah i'm glad we don't script this podcast because at no point will be predicting we're going to talk about paris hilton i know what were we talking about andy burnham's djing um and i think that yeah like to jump back like when he was mayor of manchester like co-op live in one of the first places i think to do the levy and it's a fund local venues in manchester bristol tried to try it out the levy locally as well then like i think as a mayor i think he's seen the like what's the phrase that he's been using is it like a fairness you can feel right and i think like lots of the unfairness that you we like notice in society i think is being picked up on and i think as we're trying to do on this podcast like zoom in like pinch into kind of like some of the big problems and look at the way in which they are just reflections of stuff that's unfair elsewhere and like corporate power run run wild and monopolies and private equity and all these interconnected issues where the extraction of money or the extraction of resources is huge i think going back to the fan lab review of football like the ownership of football clubs is also one of the reasons why there's a regulator coming in for for football and it's like i don't think we would see the same thing happening with music venues for instance like why couldn't i own a music venue or have aspirations to when the only people that really own music venues now are live nation and and the academy group and like a few small companies and then they get to decide how that venue operates how much or little is invested in it like whereas in comparison to kind of arts venues where they're publicly funded they often have to do certain things for public access so i guess it's a bit like the nhs and like looking at the kind of private model like how differently would it be if we owned our own venues and right like the music venues properties that we touched on in the podcast brandy burnham bought a stake in that and they own the snug in atherton and there's a really nice video that mark david i need i shared a clip of it on social media and the full just like andy burnham chatting for like 10 minutes about why it's important these venues exist and why he bought like they gave him a framed picture of like his share he now has in music venue properties and i think they've bought 14 venues or so so far and they're like so basically so that the leaseholder um or the landlord can't kick the venue out because they decide they want to do something else with the building right so yeah i think all that stuff points to kind of hope that he's going to do a good job i know there's loads of other reasons to have issues with him yes i also know that having hope in politicians is dangerous i know that's exactly what i was just about to say i was like i don't want to build myself up too much to just come crashing down also we may have a new prime minister in the next i don't know before this episode goes yeah who knows who knows these days um but so there were there were 50 over 50 recommendations in the fanlet review so i'm wondering how you sort of sifted through them and decided what you were going to ask lord brennan i definitely felt overwhelmed at the task of i mean i get why joe rogan does three hour podcasts and i definitely could have talked to him for a lot longer i went with some of the topics that we've covered on the podcast recently because like the ticket touts for instance feels like a really substantive open door to push on because it's already in the labor manifesto i had a lot of different questions and notes and i sort of lent into what he wanted to talk about at the start and sort of followed that chain a bit i don't know about you but when i write down loads of questions for an interview they're all sort of in the back of my head even though they're on the screen next to me yeah and i very rarely dip into them if i unless i feel like i need to yeah it's quite it's such a big report there's a lot of brilliant findings in it but it is like in fact to use his own point if the report asked for one thing it would have been a lot easier yes to have worked out what the focus of the interview was because i think by having so many recommendations and the recommendations are for different things some of them are for the industry some of them are for fans themselves some of them are for local councils like things like late night travel like i think from i think he even mentioned it in the interview councillors can use that data to justify the changes they want to make to their late night transport to put on one or two more buses to the bus operators so the councils will be able to use that to say for our nighttime economy yes you can run less buses at 1 p.m and 4 p.m but we want a bus at 10 30 or 11 o 'clock so that people can come out and experience our town or city at different times of day so i think that the i find prepping for interviews because i'm not like a trained journalist and i'm sure there's probably training that i probably should do that would help me figure out how to prioritize like a little bit was we're back like when we recorded the interview i think it was the day after andy burnham had taken taken power um on the steps of downing street so i obviously wanted to talk about that because it was quite fresh um in terms of timing like knowing that he was coming in i was like well that might make a good clip if i've got the lord that was behind the fan-led review talking about his hopes for music fans um Yeah, I think it is impossible to do an interview now without thinking about clips.

26:41Every job is clips now. That's how I feel. Well, Hannah Callot talked about that in a recent episode. And just like sometimes you like and I thought there was a really good episode of I think it's the Atlantic's podcast called Galaxy Brain. and they did a whole special on like the clipping economy and how like this one person that makes like a million pounds a year just off making clips of other people's podcasts that does not surprise me at all and how much reach most of the clips get and how few viewers in comparison like the conversion from clips to i think even with the galaxy brain podcast he was saying that his friends really like his podcast but they've only ever seen the clips yeah yeah i i get that all the time do you listen to this podcast oh no but i've watched i've watched i've watched it on instagram yeah i've watched the clips yeah so i think there's i think there was a lot of different things like how do you prep when you're prepping for an interview my main thing is that i always put myself in the listener perspective yeah that's that's the first thing that's the main thing um i think as a listener i always try and think what would I need to hear if I had no idea who this person was had no context to what they do or what they care about what they're here to talk about so I always have those like basic introduction questions at the top and the other reason why I think that's important is because I think it often takes a long time for people to warm up and feel comfortable and if you go in super hard with like a deep or like creative or kind of like weird eccentric question um they'll often just not give the answer that they would have given five minutes even later yeah like often those foundational questions are really helpful for the listener to get the context because you can tune into a podcast where you don't know anything about the topic like i did a season two of the podcast was all about the future music journalism and I just started every interview with like what is journalism and everyone answers really differently yeah and gave but it gave such a good sense of who they are and what they care about about the art of journalism and some people will lend so much into the truth and the trust with the audience whereas other people were like this is about the stories that we can explain about who we are and like you got really different and then then I got them to introduce themselves and by that point you're quite deep into a conversation yeah and that but you'd given quite a lot of foundation before people kind of like wandered into kind of maybe a slightly more complex topic exactly and i think listeners want to feel like they are part of the conversation along for the ride and you can't do that if you jump straight in with um lots of assumed knowledge that's the that's the term isn't it um yeah and it's tricky sometimes especially in news um you know we had somebody on media storm the other day who um was giving a lot of answers that were a lot of assumed knowledge oh and this person and they didn't say who owns this paper so um you know we always have to like come back in afterwards with the context well it's also that thing as a journalist or as an interviewer you've got to almost like sometimes people sound a bit thick because you have to ask this the question that you already know the answer to yeah in order to get the response from someone and i think when you know the person that you're maybe interviewing sometimes you can skip and i think some of the the flaws of some podcasts is that they assume a lot of like inside knowledge and i know that in jokes and kind of feeling part of a community is one of the core reasons why podcasts are great but sometimes forgetting that not everyone is where you're at like and i and i really like i really try when i'm like often my questions are quite rambly so that i can get that context in um or off the back of someone saying some like especially if someone uses an acronym or something for instance like thinking oh just it's going to interrupt just to make sure do you mean this thing and it's like it's like yes i know what you mean but i don't think the listener might exactly it's just getting a bit meta us talking about i don't yeah yeah and interviewing whilst no i mean we're not yeah we're not interviewing each other yeah well i thought it'd be really nice to have this type of episode because i do a lot of this podcast like tied up in my own head right and the there's so much more that like i mean there was loads more i wanted to ask lord brennan for instance like and i didn't really know like do i think the house of lords should exist like was this the context to have that conversation probably not loved you to ask him that like did i check his voting record on topics of that maybe outside of music like from what i know he seems like a really good egg and a really nice person and like clearly obsessed with music but obviously you never know yeah like and i i really liked that there was definitely i mean there was also like things that i am aware of that's going on outside of the work he's doing that that's in motion that i know i couldn't talk about yet as well and it's like but there's also things like i don't know what the government announced which looks good where he gave him half a tick a lot of that was already things that had been announced like bundled back together and like does that make me a doomsayer to kind of say well they've basically just repackaged load of announcements um like it was all those kinds of things like i want people to be hopeful that things are going to happen and things are going to change yeah and for a lot of people when they government made that announcement putting all those things together that did actually help because labor have been so terrible with their comms to actually make people know well actually we are doing things it's a very fine line you You almost have to pick and choose your battles a bit when interviewing somebody who has like a wide range of roles that they fulfill.

33:01But is there to talk to you about one specific thing or in this case, one specific thing that had 50 recommendations. So I understand why you didn't delve into the ethics of the House of Lords in that podcast. Maybe we can get them back on. Do you want to talk about proportional representation for a minute? and it's like how many of these different topics like the environmental impacts of music like the public without public transport more people are driving like is that really the place to go that deep and i think i did mention it anyway but it's the fan led review had a lot of ground to cover but if an organization can be set up to represent fans it can be a climate justice organization it can also be a like pushing for democracy because if music fans want to see the music scene improve in this country then they don't need politicians that put profit before people and it's there's so many different things like i'm not saying that's i think it would have to be like a non-partisan organization it's not going to be able to do certain things the charity commission obviously clip the wings of so many different organizations for i guess for genuinely good reasons a lot of the time but the ability for a fan organization to represent all the different things that fans want is going to be quite challenging yes yeah so but having good politicians like if the if like if politicians start putting who their favorite bands are on their flyers when they're trying to be elected that would be a big shift now i would love to see that and i would love to see like who put something down to try and seem really cool and the thing is no i think if they were writing them down on their flyers they need to answer five questions about them name three songs name three songs name this album to start to finish but it's also like those flyers that go out imagine if they were just put like here's a recommendation of a local band you should check out they're about to fly at everyone in their area that would be amazing i'm gonna start like if someone's gonna run a political campaign yeah could the local band like be like right can you put me on one of your flyers and like also this is a slight aside but like government policy should be to use uk artists on all of their promo videos as the music because the amount of times i see videos that go out by members of the british government that have got some weird like sound library music by some american artist on it when you look at the details of who the artist is i'm like surely there should be a budget to help funds the british music economy from the british government if they're going to put out all these promo clips nandy burnham is now doing quite a lot of them like how great would it like be if like i don't know just using the the library on instagram to just big up some british music yeah especially some local or lesser known British music.

36:05Like, do they need a curator in-house, like a crate digger for the PM? I mean, that would be a great job. Maybe you could be like the Labour government's music... Selector. Selector, yeah. I'm making a job for myself. In Australia, they've got a music minister who's also the transport minister who I interviewed at Hull Music Cities a few weeks ago. He's the world's first minister of music because they're normally culture ministers. does he like play music on the trans on the public transport no but i think things like this would be something he could literally say like yeah if you're putting out videos on social media use australian artists i love that do you know why he in particular was selected to be the music minister i need to dig into a bit more he was really great i i might put out the panel we did together because it was such a good conversation and one of the things he mentioned towards the end was um they've been getting noise complaints for the sydney opera house right for property developers who built nearby so like the agent the change principle of um you need to change your property not this the sydney opera house doesn't need to stop putting on music and um he was saying he announced their autumn lineup or i don't know what season they're in australia i guess it would be their summer lineup yeah that's the way it probably around it's because it's about to come up so he stood there and announced what the locals will be able to hear oh my gosh that's good um and the reason i ask that is because like you know how in cabinet reshuffles yeah or even not in reshuffles even when they're selected you know the health minister may have had absolutely zero experience in health education minister never been a teacher i wonder if they reshuffled that and the music minister like doesn't listen to any music yeah that would be weird it's also one of the things that i discovered recently is there's a few mps now who are like super fans of certain artists and like like i think sam get cape was telling me one of the labor mps was like oh yeah i came to this like basement gig you did in my friend's house like way before he was an mp and like so to know that there's people in parliament that are part of communities and cultures i think is really important definitely like i don't know it's like it would be interesting to find out more about who are some of those big music fans because the only things we ever hear is like rachel reeves getting free tickets to a big stadium gigs take her daughters not because she necessarily was yeah the one that really wanted to go or theresa may dancing yeah was abba something like that yeah yeah um how did we get here that's a great question should we wrap up this conversation and um that's i want to really thank lord brennan for his time first though because i and as i said to him at the end of the interview i think the work he's done for music fans is so important um i i just really think that the fanlip review is something that we should all be sending to our mps to get them all to read it even just to read that intro bit where he talks about how much he loves music because that to me was just like so lovely to like as we said on the episode in the reflection to it but they all should be able to take this on board as a really like if you're in terms of populist politics how much more can you get the music there's something that you can really go okay i'm going to do something that's all about pop music or classical or whatever is the type of music you like like to be able to talk about local communities because you represent them as an mp um yeah i don't know it feels like such an important and an easy win for for politicians in a time when things aren't that easy for them there's a lot of reasons to hate on our politicians honestly it's it is an easy win it's staring at them in the face is there anything else you wanted to ask sorry i realized i said we were done no no i mean i never thought we would talk about the things we have spoken about we've covered Paris Hilton importantly we've covered Theresa May um yeah I think that I mean I enjoyed his little uh tidbit that um Apex twin sister is is an MP yeah it was an MP in the Welsh parliament yeah love that the uh I want to work out how she went from Cornwall to Wales and ended up in parliament like this we should probably interview her that's probably a really interesting like and like what does she do for music because of what does she do nothing like leaves that to her brother like it's fascinating we've got a whole new series where we can interview mps about what music they would put on their flyers that is the my takeaway from this episode me too um this has been dranninsound podcast brought you in partnership with kobuzz if you go to dranninsound.org forward slash playlists you can find helena's mid-year mixtape and mine and emma who does our newsletters so that's dranninsound.org forward slash playlists thank you to shaw for letting us use their studios i have been sean adams and you have been helena woodier this has been the dranninsound podcast we'll see you again next time

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