Geoff Barrow (Portishead) Made a Film with a Sleaford Mod and Every Penny Invada Had

0:00In this episode of the Drowning Sound podcast, I am chatting to someone who is a bit of a legend. He was in the band Portishead. He was one of the driving forces behind the band, in fact. He started out as the tape-op for Massive Attack, and recently he's probably better known for his band Beak and his record label Invader, which has released so many great records. They've released the Drive soundtrack, which I think was one of those kind of high watermarks for film soundtracks. they released gazelle twin who was on the podcast not so long ago they released billy no mates who's fantastic lots of other great things and if you go to drownandsound.org forward slash playlist you'll find a companion playlist for this episode with jeff barrow who is a wonderful man and has worked on so many different things i'm going to include some of the records he's produced including the horrors who we touch on in this interview and various different things which he's done and created.

0:55I'm also going to drop in a track by Sleaford Mods because Jason from the band appears in the new film Game which is what we're talking about today which is the film written and produced by Jeff Barrow. There's a whole bunch of great credits in there and we'll get into what the film's about in a minute but as you can guess on the title Game it might be about video games but no it's about game as in the things that you find out on the land the birds and the animals in nature. But actually, it's not about that either. But that's in the peripheral vision of the film. We will not spoiler the film.

1:31I made a very good job of not doing that, which was my big fear for this interview. But it was really nice. I went to Jeff Barry's house out near Portishead on the outskirts of Bristol. And we sat outside on a very hot English summer's day. Well, not even summer, spring. it's climate change it's making everything way hotter than it should be and we talked about the film we talked about creative processes we talked about politics briefly which surprised me because I was really worried the entire interview was just going to be us slagging off Nigel Farage and yeah if you go to drannonsound.org forward slash playlists you can hear the companion playlist for this episode which is brought to you in partnership with Cobuzz and you will also find there your 30 day free trial to try out the platform and hear music and really high quality and they're pretty ethical platform too so dranninsound.org forward slash playlist for that and all of our companion playlists for each episode of the podcast right let's jump from me in a nice quiet air-conditioned studio to me having set up all my gear outside with dogs and cats wandering around and the wind in the trees and a little bit of sun in our eyes and um yeah this is my chat with the legend that is jeff barrow

2:59lots of your work you've just you talk about being reactionary and i was wondering what making a film is in reaction to that's a really good question i suppose it's reaction to being told you can't make a film you know you can do this and you can't do this unless you've got these connections or that money or whatever it is, you know. And I think the people that I made it with are lifelong friends and some new friends as well. But maybe we're all around the same age and it's kind of like we've talked about making a film. And, you know, if we don't do it, it's never going to happen. So, yeah. because one of the things I want the listener to get out of this conversation is obviously lots of music fans a lot of them are going to be creative people with projects they've always wanted to do yep and I can imagine making music for screen being part of the world of film and tv and all the things that you've done over the last few years yeah there must be that like I just want to make this is the thing I want to put the sound to or this is or being part of seeing people bring their visions to life there's something quite like I've found from being around people doing those kinds of things you're just like whoa these people are doing all these things like how do i get in to do that thing and be part of it yeah i mean you know i never thought i would be ended up working on scores i thought that was for people with nice shoes and scarves you know um that knew about orchestras you know um and mainly it still is unfortunately um but it's that's changing you knows you know um so yeah yeah making making a film was was um i suppose it's look i mean i'm not going to pretend it wasn't easier by having 150 grand in invaders bank account um that i persuaded reg to invest in the film you know uh it's a that was pretty much all our money um you know, we're still going as a label.

5:02So we did survive it. But basically, that was pretty much all our money. So... I mean, even that by filmmaking standards is not a big budget for productions. No, it's not. No, it's, you know, working on, you know, Alex Garland films. That's like a, you know... Like around your first album, that would have been a video budget for like one video. No, I know. Well, I think the Only You video costs 300 grand, you know. so yeah it was ridiculous and then you know but I suppose so that 150 grand is a massive thing lots of filmmakers that want to make their own films making short films and everything else would kind of would dream to have that money to make into a feature you know and we had it so we knew that that was it there was no more so we had to fit everything into that So that meant where it was going to be filmed, how many shots we could, you know, like, could we borrow someone's house to shoot outside it?

6:05The crew, always, all of them had like four other jobs. And then at the end of it, even the feeling that, I suppose I kind of knew that it wasn't going to be, you know, someone wasn't going to swoop in and buy this kind of film for millions of quid. so it's been a yeah it's been a continuous challenge and labour of love yeah absolutely yeah there's something so I don't want to I've not really done interviews about films before so I don't really want to spoiler it for people because I think there are key moments in the film that if I talk about them so I think we'll talk in slightly more broad brush strokes in case anyone is listening to this a lot of the stuff is kind of out there now so don't worry about it too much but I think the the film itself like there's something very english that you've captured that's we hear a lot of talk about the northern powerhouse and like we get like i guess peaky blinders is birmingham yeah but as someone that grew up in the west country there's something about the edge to the film that feels like an england that i know yeah and the internationally is maybe not like the weirdness of mate give me a hand mate like there's something really English about it yeah like and like that's because I had this conversation with Gazelle Twin who's signed to Invader and we talked about national pride yeah and how encapsulating something in what it means to be English versus she's really proud to be Welsh yeah and like not being nationalism is like taken over what it means to be British and I think what you've managed to capture is something just like being in that place in the middle of nowhere and like the frustrations of it and the like pasty on the floor and like it all feels so brilliantly English.

7:59Is that something that you were like aiming to capture or do you think just like emanates who you are? I think the other thing as well is that when you've got a very low budget and you're going to shoot it in a certain place and it's local and you want the actors to feel comfortable about the words they're saying and the situations that they're in, even though it's extreme in this film, their situations. So, I mean, the worst thing you want to do is really kind of like, you know, try and make a Scottish film if you're from Bristol. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, make a West Country film.

8:40do what we know I mean like it's based in 1993 and that was our time a lot of the people that have been involved in the film and Jason you know Williamson and Mark all you know we just grew up in Portors Head over the hill here and around that time of kind of country raves and driving out to Hereford you know it was all the stuff we knew so we could so even like I bought a lot of the costumes you know off eBay and I kind of knew exactly where to go straight away because it was all the clothes that me and my mates were wearing and then it looks real then, it doesn't look like it's been made by somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about I think one of the interesting things is some of that look and feel is the same the nostalgia for it is what kids are now doing as well I went into an urban outfit a while ago and I was like this is the same stuff or my mates were to raves.

9:39Like, what's going on? And I think in a weird way, I didn't read, because I don't like reading about films before I watch them. And when I read afterwards, it was like, oh, okay. Because of that, it's back in fashion. Yeah. I almost didn't grasp. There was bass back then. Yeah. Which is an odd thing then to get the loop of the loop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought there was something, Jason is such a, like uniquely like I'm sure if you went into the middle America we get these like cliches of what some of those like what we think of people in sort of certain parts of America are like but I think there's like a really rural kind of English kind of like oddballs that would sit out in the woods and just sit there and watch you in struggling and things and I think that we get that American pastoral you know so So, you know, the film is not based on a true story, but there's a friend called Leo who I went to school with in Paul's Head and he's a couple of years older than me.

10:47He's still mates now. He lives abroad. But he was a poacher and supplied chemicals at dance parties at the same time. So I sat down with him for like five hours. He loves to chat as well. and just recorded so much of his experience of being on that side. And he is, I mean, he's, you know, he used to do a drink and stuff and he doesn't anymore. But yeah, I mean, a lot of those blokes I knew, there were poachers around here, were kind of like really not, you know, don't mess with them at all. Not like, you know, it's like a heart, you know, like going into a man kind of thing, but just their view on like the countryside and outsiders and everything else you know yeah it's like we hear in surf culture like the townies and the grokkles and like and i think that's we we sort of know about it in those pockets but when you're inland yeah those things are even more kind of rich one thing i noticed about the film and maybe because i went in with preconceptions knowing that it was your film yeah it was how little music there is at times in it yeah and how much like we're literally sitting here and like the birdsong and the sound design was that quite a conscious decision very very very conscious yeah so basically a couple of things about it so when you watch low budget films they're usually overscored massively which makes them look and sound even worse um people get worried about um the the audience not understanding the emotion and the script and so on.

12:22So they overemphasize the emotion through sad music or spooky music or whatever it is. It's a terrible mistake. I totally understand it, why people do it. But it's a real kind of... And then the other thing, as someone who's done a lot of scores, like I did a TV show called Archive 81 for Netflix. Really enjoyed it. Brilliant people. I did it through lockdown, one of the most enjoyable jobs I've done. But I must say, through 10 episodes, there was 14 seconds when there wasn't music. Wow. And it was cool, you know, that was their choice. But, oh my God, it's just music is so overused. And it's usually just to kind of like to make sure that they know that someone's sad or whatever.

13:16so I just really wanted to do it with no music whatsoever and then we realised that we were going to do needle drops and then had to make some rave tunes oh did you make the tune, I was going to say were they things, did you make them especially? yeah no, it's a guy I play football with

13:34and his name, his old rave music maker name was DJ Smudge so I just asked him, can you come up with some 93 bangers that would be a rural would be on played a rural rave in 93 and he was like yeah Somewhere a photocopied flyer would have given you vague directions In a world before what three words Yeah exactly yeah We've got a flyer we've been giving them out of the cinemas Is that how you do the screenings? That would be really cool Yeah well we just we haven't gone that far there's a rave on but yeah part of the promotion was raves so when people got home they had something to post about the film you know but yeah music was all that and then obviously there's a tiny bit of score and then there's a scene kind of right at the end that uses a kind of a classical track that is mixed with terrible rave and because we knew that we had this big, long scene at the end that needed to be covered by one piece of music.

14:47And we just kind of lucked out, really. Obviously, I don't want to talk about what that scene is because, again, I liked not knowing much about the film going into it. And you'd sent it across, and I was like, oh, Jason Williamson from Sleep for Mods is in it, and it's one of your projects. and then I saw that you mentioned that the director, cinematographer is John Minton that you've worked with on music videos over the years. So basically the way it works with the film is that Mark Besant, who's the guy, who's the raver, we went to school together as kids in Portors Head. He became, he was in Portors Head, the band, like as a rapper really early on and then got into graphic design and he became the head of design down in Real World Studios.

15:42He's done most of Portless Ed's artwork over the years. He does album covers and everything else. But then in his mid-30s, he always wanted to go back into acting because it's that thing of like, I suppose, when you're younger and growing up where we did, it was like being a musician, being an actor. A musician was actually easier than thinking, I'm going to be an actor. So basically he decided to start doing theatre again. So we've always talked about doing that. And then John Mint and I've worked with him for over 20 years now. He did the first videos for people like Gonga on Invader. He's done videos for pretty much everyone on the label.

16:29and then ended up being Port Z's visual director for our tours on 3rd. He was the director and cameraman and did all the, he basically built a Channel 4 from 1982 as a backstage. So he did all the feedback, live feedback and stuff. And we've talked about making a film. And then Rob Williams is a guy that I've met only over the last few years, but he's a Judge Dredd writer and I've been a massive 2008D fan, moved to Porter's Head, but he's Welsh, he's not from around here. And we started writing film ideas together. He's not from around here. I know. But I mean, so he lives in Porter's Head and so all of us kind of got together and just went, and we all would trust each other and know, you know.

17:20So Rob did the screenplay. We wrote it all together, but he did the screenplay and Mark was the main actor. you know, with Jace. And yeah, John directed it and edited it. So why did you end up making a film like this? Well, it's more about kind of why I made a film generally. I mean, you know, when I started Paul Zedd, I was really young. And that quest for kind of knowledge about how to make and record music, produce music. And then I kind of stayed on that. I never found out how to really but when you get to that path I was on that path for a long time and then I quit music for quite a while before I set up in Vader, just nothing inspired me at all but I've always been interested in film music, then got a chance to do film music with Ben and it was like this whole new world this new language I had to learn about how to write music for a picture and so that was really interesting then going and visiting like we visited Ben Wheatley when we did Free Fire and it was this amazing old warehouse down near Brighton, it turned it into a 19th century's Boston dock building and meeting the cast and all that kind of stuff and then so that, I was like oh right, I'm really interested in film and so music kind of in a sense kind of died away I love being in Beak and everything else but ultimately I was just it was like this learning thing all the time and just being inspired and just like how are they doing this?

19:06You know speaking a lot to Alex Garland as well and I was just like okay that's the next thing I want to make my own film I was going to say were you asking some of the people you'd worked with on the scores for like advice around making the film was there anything Any nice things you learned from people? Yeah, but both Ben and Alex helped out, you know, on game, you know. And Andy Stark, who is a really respected producer of indie films, does all of Ben's films and Rook films, really helped out as well. And then even so, because it's like been a self-distributed film, I've had to learn all that stuff as well, which I'm super keen on because I've always been interested in like marketing and all that stuff as well.

19:52Yeah. So it just seems like a, I honestly thought I was kind of done with music in my like mid 40s. And then just film was like this massive breath of fresh air kind of. Do you think it was like the existential crisis type moment of like what am I making music for? Yeah. And then suddenly finding a different canvas. Yeah, massively, yeah. Because I can see with going through your catalogue of different things you've worked on and different things you've done, it seems like your curiosity and your drive to learn is kind of like quite a strong driving force. Massively. I mean, you know, like I think even kind of from Porter's Head, us wanting to change per album, do you know what I mean?

20:35It's like, it's not like, okay, well, that's Porter's Head, they're going to sound like that for the rest of their career. That's the reason it took 10 years to make third, because I had to completely learn new skills. And I didn't want to make a record that kind of used loops in that sense. It was like, it was done. And the technology had changed in that period as well. Massively, yeah. And it's just like, you have to keep on moving forward, I think. Do you think that, like, obviously you're named after a place? and I think often people don't think about the fact they're soundtracking their environment and I think you can listen to Icelandic bands and they sound like they're Icelandic and I think with both this film and possibly some of your catalogue looking at the way Bristol's changed the city they say this part of the world has changed and adapted cultures changed the platforms people are listening on has changed do you think that some of the kind of what would you do next in that moment in time like the world had changed quite significantly like did you not maybe not know what you were soundtracking anymore so having film as as like another palette possibly like oh okay i can soundtrack this world yeah because the world that i knew and the world that i was in soundtracking is changing so quickly i don't know how to capture it yeah it is i think once you learn like um I think once you learn how to score a film, you then have to learn to unlearn it.

22:09Yeah. Because you'll just end up writing very normal stuff that does the job. And you always want to be pushing yourself. And strangely enough, very much like music, score music is changing. just the rules of it are changing the way that directors are now using the score to really upset traditional ways of making the audience feel you know like whether it be from Uncut Gems or you know they're very different takes on traditional scoring you know and I find it really interesting that it's like someone keeps on pushing something like they do in dance music something always kind of like comes along that reinvents it obviously you released the score to Drive, that probably is one of those pivotal films it was a massive pivotal moment for our label for Invader really really strange, Reg went to see it and really loved it and I was away somewhere on tour and he said, just seeing Drive on, yeah it's great, he goes I'm going to get the score, I'm like don't be ridiculous you know and then he just tracked down the guy at Lakeshore and they had a really good conversation and he just said can we do it for Europe and he was like yeah well it was just like wow and that was like it was a massive record for us you know and it was just like okay it really suited the label and everything in it so that's sparked off what how what we became basically because I think like as a film like those synths against a film that at times is quite violent yeah like I guess Blade Runner has obviously had that Vangelis yeah Vangelis yeah I never know how to say it it's like words you always read on paper moog moog yeah and like I wondered to what extent like film that world has changed like you released The Score to The Road is that right or did I no I misremember no I don't think we did The Road you did a Nick Cave and Warren Ellis one yeah we did yeah Wind River we did we've done lots with Warren and Nick Cave as well, yeah.

24:25No one's going to make at least one mistake. Can't intimately know every color. No, no, no. So yeah, we've done tons of stuff. And what I love about doing film scores, you know, like working with Elizabeth, you know, Gazelle Twin, or Lucretia Dalt, you know, like they're inventive as any kind of new music genre. Do you know what I mean? And even more so because they haven't, they don't have to work around songs and structures and it could be this weird 20 second little kind of motif or whatever you know um so yeah it's been it's it's just yeah especially working with lots of artists that are artists in their own sense as well they're recording artists and score writers because you can bring some of that dna and identity i guess to the to the school like there's certain film people that make film music and they none of their music sounds coherent and yeah it's like they're really good at working to the brief yeah and i think yeah you can hear bits of your dna and some of those scores that you've done yeah but would take someone to know it to probably feel it rather than go ah i know where that world has come from yeah it's really weird i mean when we did annihilation uh for one people were like you know when it came out they were like, because randomly it's become like a TikTok, you know, like it's massive, it was massive, you know.

25:51And people are like, did you do Annihilation? And I'm like, oh, I wondered who it was just from listening to it and just going, I mean, it doesn't sound like Pauze, it doesn't sound like Beak or whatever, but there was something about it that, you know, I mean, it's also, I mean, I think a big change of that was Mickie Levy as well when they did Under the Skin. yeah that was incredible it was such an immense kind of moment in film music history basically I think it just changed the whole industry when I first heard it I didn't know it was a score I just thought it was a record and it blew me away I'm like oh my god who's done this record what is this record why is someone making this music and then I saw the film and was like this is insane, it's just getting better and better.

26:43I think you react to feelings, and that was a moment for me that I was like, it gave me a feeling the similar time when I first did Public Enemy, that made me want to become like a DJ or whatever. And I react really strongly to those moments. And so you find yourself going in that direction. Was that when you were in the period of you'd quit music and then that was a way of a eureka? No, no, I think we were doing stuff. I was definitely doing stuff with Beak and that, but it just blew me away. And when I saw the film, it just, same thing. I once saw Mika Levi do a live score with just a balloon and a contact mic.

27:30And it was amazing. Of course it was. I think there was loop pedals and things involved. Of course it was. You know, they're amazing, you know. there's something in what's happened with film soundtracks and scores because obviously they're slightly different often a soundtrack is a compilation album often of the needle drops rather than the score and yeah yeah i found myself at one point wondering if drannan sound should become just the place that focuses on film music because i started to realize all the artists i like were part of that and then you could cover their own records just like yeah i was like this is a much easier known universe on the internet like how can we be unique in a sea of and i think I think that for me it's like I got into different genres of music through film and I feel like there's entire catalogues of artists that I've got into because I've heard one song on one thing.

28:21I was curious, what were some of the soundtracks for you? Because I think I've heard you talk about how important film music's been. Well, I mean, you know, John Barry, Adrian introduced me to the Ipcrest file when we first met. And then, you know, John Carpenter, obviously. And then people like Rizzo Tullani and the Italian kind of like late 60s, 70s composers. And then like modern ones, like I said, Micka Levy and people like Elizabeth and, you know, Johnny Greenwood, you know what I mean? Like they're kind of masterful. They're creating these atmospheres, you know what I mean? that I don't know whether it's my laziness with just modern music but I just don't hear those atmospheres so much in modern music no I think and I think also there's so much music there's what 100 ,000 120 ,000 songs released every day yeah it's quite a lot but there's hardly any films released yeah and you sort of like I had this idea a few years ago of why can't I just look up all the films that Cat Power's on the soundtrack to because all the films I've seen with Cat Power on the soundtrack to are pretty good films Yeah, yeah.

29:33So the director's got similar music tastes to me. And like, it would be much easier to find artists that were also on the same... It's a solid thing. Well, Drive was that completely, wasn't it? With Johnny Jewell and the tracks that were on there, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Just college. Yeah. You know, that was the perfect example of that. Actually, you could listen to the whole record and go, oh, who are these artists? And then just try and find them, you know. Yeah, the IntelliSuit Better label was like from... I'd already knew like some of their stuff before that. But after that film, it was like, whoa, there's loads more catalogue here that I need to dip into.

30:07Yeah. You know, and it might have, you might have heard it, but it kind of like the film really pushed it. And it could have been lost all that stuff, really. Yeah. You know. But, yeah.

30:27Hi there. It's Emma here. I am Gay Crash in the podcast to quickly tell you about the Drowned in Sound newsletter. Every Wednesday, I invite myself into your inbox, with permission, of course, to share opinion writing and resources, tell you about cool things that you should be involved in within the world of music, activism, etc. I also bring track of the week and a little bit of hopeful news for you, because we all know that the news cycle can be grim at the best of times. Drowned in Sound newsletter every Wednesday in your inbox. Sign up now.

31:10So we should talk a little bit about the label. Yeah. Like, creating a body of work as an artist, but creating a catalogue like you have done, like, did you ever expect when you started the label for it to be something you'd kind of continue doing now? Because it sounded like when it first started, you had a clear, like, let's get this record out. Did you imagine, what, 20 or 25 years on you'd be running the label? Yeah. You know, to explain, we're in Bristol. As you walk into the building, there's the label and Charlie and Reg run the label. and in the back of the building is the studio. So we're kind of like a really shit Motown.

31:57But we do do that thing where we do record stuff and it comes out on the label. So it kind of works. I suppose, I mean, we started off, like I said, I set up the label with Fat Paul, Paul Horlick. He's not fat anymore. And I don't know why we ever called him that anyway. But I think he called himself it, actually. With a PH. He was a, yeah, he was a historic, you know, he put on kind of, you know, Mudhoney and like, he was a band manager, had his own label at his like, in Bristol. And he was one guy really respected and got on with. And when I came back from Australia, I said, can we set up a label together?

32:41And he was like, yeah, let's do it. Start again for him. and we signed like, you know, like doom metal, electronic stuff, you know, just any kind of stuff that we just thought was cool, you know. And some things like we've still got a thousand records in the garage somewhere and other stuff. We did all right. And then Reg started working for us and Paul stepped down and Reg took over as a partner and he's been there ever since. But yeah, it's, you know, we've gone through, we went through Cargo and then we went through PS and now we're on Secretly. Secretly are doing loads of good stuff at the moment.

33:25Yeah, they're nice people. They've all been nice people all the way through. You know, and Craig works for us. He worked at PS for many years. Cork Hill. Yeah. He was also my go-to guy. Literally from the days of Vital, Craig is secretly one of the people that's been like the backbone of the indie industry for the last 20 years. he's such a lovely man he manages TVAM that you've released as well no not anymore but basically yeah he did they were together very close so yeah and it's weird I suppose you know some of the stuff that we sign is not you know is going to always be like on the outskirts of stuff and other stuff like you know tour Billy No Mates you know kind of like it's done really well and TVAM again and the last from Middlesbrough benefits you know and then you know like recently we just signed Electronics you know from LA just like a brilliant dude from LA so yeah I mean it's really really tough you know we mainly sell vinyl we're not super kind of like into the whole digital thing we are getting there kind of like not too sure how I feel about it all really because we're like 20ish years since streaming sort of started to replace iTunes, which was when everything went digital.

34:47And even though like a lot of the music you release is often using electronic sounds, they're often analog electronic sounds. And I do wonder if the type of audience that are going to love the records you release are as interested as owning the MP3 or streaming it. They are. I mean, like I think, you know, a lot of people... I mean, it is weird. I mean, we've just done Surat, you know, Surat, the film. Have you seen that yet? No, I haven't. Oh, my God. It's like, that was another, it was another under the skin moment for me, you know. And, you know, David, he did the score and we've got, you know, and wanted to be on Invader.

35:29And it was like, wow, this is amazing. And it's an astonishing film, terrifyingly astonishing film. I don't know how I've not I'm a bit behind on films at the moment No, yeah, I know but there are so many really good ones out there as well Watch it though It's not for the faint hearted though And so, yeah and it's a techno score basically So, you know, it's a whole different audience again coming into Invader And do you think some of that audience comes in through the films and then finds the rest of the catalogue? Yeah Because I think one thing that was always frustrated me as a music fan is how hard it is to kind of plunge into a catalogue, for want of a better word.

36:15God, Joanne and Sound, and I'm using words like plunge. Anyway, the idea that, like, in film, you can find a director you like and then check out their catalogue. You can find a cinematographer that you like and then watch a few more of their films. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But in music, the label is one of the few things, but I think people in film are so much more used to, like, oh I just found this thing who else have they like independent film companies like A24's obviously built a big reputation off the back of it massively Neon you know XYZ yeah there's a lot of them you know I'm just curious because obviously you're in touch with those people like have they come in through film and then discovered the rest of the music and the kind of universe that you're building out of your Bristol Motown yeah it's weird I mean it's strange because we deal a lot with you know Amazon film, Netflix, A24, they've set up, we helped them set up their own record label.

37:11Well, Reg did. That's something that they wanted to do, which is really bad for us because that means that we don't get our records. But yeah, I mean, you know, it's a strange little kind of indie kind of, but it's massive as well. You think about the amount of money that A24 spend on, And, you know, the amount of, you know, scores that are actually sold from the films are pretty small, you know. So, but they, when we get in contact with them, people at Amazon, they're really excited about the idea of it being on vinyl and being, you know, a record out there. Yeah, and racks in record shops alongside other classic bits of music.

37:53Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So from a producer point of view with a film, you've obviously produced various records. Yeah. and you've released various records and been involved in different parts of it. How similar or different was producing a film to producing, say, a Horrors album? What sort of similarities and differences are there? Because I guess a producer in a film sense is obviously slightly different in a producing a record sense. Or did you just approach it as the same thing? I kind of approached it as the same thing, really. Just to kind of have an overview. try and find out, try and find the most important thing to make sure we get right and I suppose the kind of coverage.

38:40And I suppose, you know, with a record, they are very different, you know. But I guess it's the right idea. What's the thing we're going to turn up? Like what's going to create noise here that we actually don't, like, or what's going to create a visual distortion or something that's going to be almost like a filter on a guitar? I think, yeah, I think moments, what I consider moments is really important. You know, I think traditionally a solid album would have, you know, moments in a record that would really kind of either make it stand out from other records or, you know, better songs or production or, and I think it's the same with film.

39:23And we've done a lot of those moments in game. I like watching films with strong moments. You know, Surat is another film with very strong moments that stick with you. And I think that's the one thing that I can definitely say between writing scores, producing film, producing and writing film, or writing and producing music, is moments. Yeah, because I'm always fascinated to chat to producers. I started to realize putting the word sound in the name of Drowning Sound when I was 16 was not really on purpose. Yeah. But I actually think I'm more interested in the sound of a lot of records. Yeah. As much as the storytelling and the politics and everything else.