Meet The AI Rapper Beloved By The Far-Right - Part 2

16:27Effie Webb:Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, Amelia's not been showing up as much these days. But she was very present around the Gorton and Denson by-election and she endorsed Advance UK's, endorsed, Advance UK's candidate. I have to keep reminding myself, none of these people exist. But actually, this was even wilder. She didn't endorse him. Nick Buckley, on his own volition, tweeted, oh my God, me and Amelia, Amelia just endorsed me. And it was him with Amelia, the AI. And I was like, this is another level of slop.

17:01Harriet Williamson:I wonder what goes through these people's heads. You're trying to be taken seriously to be elected for public office, to look after the people of an area yeah and you are hanging out with a fake ai yeah yeah

17:15Effie Webb:but no i think in terms of like is this you know is danny bones one of many not i mean i was expecting to you know once the algorithm got cooking to be fed more and more of these synthetic personas both maybe on spotify and and online but i really wasn't and you know there's there's plenty as we said like of low quality ai slop type music and there is an interesting sub sub genre of like and i don't know how connected these sort of users or accounts are of just like faceless very synthetic um probably just put through suno and then uploaded but like low effort high churn um artists who will in a similar way to danny bones reacting but will like pick up on a viral, slightly divisive news issue about channel crossings, etc.

18:05Effie Webb:And release a really offensive song, much more offensive than the Danny Bones stuff in most cases. And we'll just churn it out at volume. Maybe someone that gets taken down when Spotify or if Spotify realise. But, you know, it's a bit of a numbers game. But none of them had the same compelling kind of figurehead. They just sort of, yeah. you know why i think danny bones is quite compelling as this um figurehead to lead it it's because his whole look and aesthetic is stolen yeah and they might have tried 10 other versions and worked on which one worked like we don't know of how many failed attempts they've

18:43Harriet Williamson:had at this yeah that's so true they could have been two or three years than no project of trying to find the right character or like i mean they might not have done they might this might also just be beginner's luck um and they've just managed to ride the right wave like i think the ways in which artists careers start and the way in which because this is this is like not really a musician like i've never seen i mean we've seen some of those people that sing at tommy robinson rallies that often can't sing in tune um that have tried to start careers off the back of being kind of at those events and that's never seems to have jumped through like i don't think Nicki Minaj is selling more records because she's now more closer to the Trump regime or anything like that but I think she's selling less and I guess in terms of the reaction to this like you've spoken to some artists already and I've reached out to a few people and the general reaction of what they're using AI music which doesn't have copyright they're creating these videos they're like being on the platforms where it's hard enough to get cut through as a musician on Spotify already so taking up space and bandwidth which is also just like frustrating what are some of the responses that you've had from artists or in the replies to the posts that

20:00Effie Webb:you've had yeah I think both times we've we've published both back in March about the advanced links and then and then this sort of reveal of the two creators it has it has been the most visceral response has been from from from musicians basically pointing out either like this is this is crap this is like this is ai slot this is um this like the hypocrisy and the irony of what what is being um what is being said by danny bones versus the the genres being used is is is is very obvious um and now obviously the irony of the the career particularly of denver bamba as one of the two people behind the node project working with with lots and lots of black artists yeah and I spoke so I spoke to an artist this week who's actually met um and previously worked with Theo um who has sort of directed and been a visual artist on on various um music videos in that scene his main take was that like look if these if these people who claim that they are not hiding behind Danny Bones they stand by every lyric they are really proud of the art project they've created um and that they're also very proud of um british culture like why why not do like folk music why not why not go with what sticks what you know type thing or you know again like just the cognitive dissonance type thing of the of the rap that some of the diehard Danny Bones fans really don't like but it does there is a very visceral hate from a lot of artists in this space.

21:47Effie Webb:We haven't spoken to artists that Dan Bamber or Theo have directly worked with I would be really interested to hear from them in terms of the claims that the artists were aware or were made aware by Dan and Theo.

22:11Effie Webb:Hi there, it's Emma here. I'm gay crashing the podcast to quickly tell you about the Drowned in Sound newsletter. Every Wednesday, I invite myself into your inbox with permission, of course, to share opinion writing and resources, tell you about cool things that you should be involved in within the world of music, activism, etc. I also bring track of the week and a little bit of hopeful news for you because we all know that the news cycle can be grim at the best of times. Drowned in Sound newsletter every Wednesday in your inbox. Sign up now.

22:54Harriet Williamson:Kind of worry with an episode like this that people are going to go listen. And I guess like music fans in general are curious people. like and i think some of the music is not like it's not terrible like it's not it's you wouldn't you wouldn't be shocked if you got sent a pile of new music and it was one of the new releases by a bunch of music students or something like it's of a standard but then that's what ai has been trained on to make stuff sit within the confines like did you get many music fans in the responses to some of the videos you made first time around and yeah i think we did have a bit of a response from

23:31Effie Webb:music fans i mean aren't we all music fans even if it's like me within a very narrow confine of the like mid-2000s my chemical romance albums um yeah see our previous episode for thoughts on my chemical romance at wembley stadium oh my god i'm scared um yeah i think that people generally there is a sense of curiosity about the standard of ai music there is um a want and i think a need for transparency really and a sense that um the monetization is unfair to artists who are working hard like creating their own stuff and not just ripping off other people's aesthetics or using AI tools that are generative and amount essentially to creative theft within the industry.

24:26Harriet Williamson:So what can the platforms do? What can fans do? Are we just meant to accept until the government intervene that this is the new normal? Like, are we going to see, I don't know, the Green Party inventing a version of Billy Bragg because he can't appear at all events or a version of Plume of Faith that can appear at different rallies? like I can't imagine it happening on the left but I can imagine I don't know the AFD in Germany creating their own version or political parties in South America and like the chainsaw guy I can definitely imagine is going to have his own like AI persona favorite artists like I guess the platforms themselves like they the contents is like some of it is just on the line of hate speech which they would describe as free speech and they do that they tow that line very well

25:18Effie Webb:and that's why you know all of the platforms we've been speaking about today are mainstream social media platforms these aren't the like alternatives like rumble which you know a lot of cancelled youtubers um like russell brand or someone like that would have to retreat to rumble

25:32Harriet Williamson:a platform part owned by peter till and jd vance oh really i actually didn't know that but i'm not

25:39Effie Webb:They are in the mainstream. They say they're anti-establishment and the moment they're banned from Meta or TikTok, they're suddenly like, oh, I hate big tech.

25:48Harriet Williamson:But I guess the stuff that's not the music probably is the stuff that's got the contents in, which could be considered closer to hates. Because I think there's a lyric in there that they put a question mark on the end of.

25:59Effie Webb:The Jews and Master Masons one, yeah. Classic world control trope, but stick a question mark on the end of it and it's fine apparently.

26:16Harriet Williamson:I guess if you're using AI you can put in the terms and conditions and the rules on hate speech in different countries but I'd imagine in some countries they might be breaking different laws like there's different things you can and can't say in certain countries and obviously these platforms are global and they have to think about global

26:34Effie Webb:audiences as well yeah and there's no coordination between meta youtube tiktok etc so any any social media story or reporting is always like a bit bittersweet in terms of like okay there might be some really meaningful interesting and responsiveness from from one platform that just means they'll migrate very easily and quickly to another platform and slash or set up a second account where you know they you know people are savvy and people get around things like that and I think it's compounded in this case because it's not only your social media four or five platforms but it's the music streamers it's your Spotify's it's your Apple Music Amazon Music whoever else plus the payment processors you know across the board and I think you'll know more about this but the kind of distributors and you know it's a whole like infrastructure I suppose propping it up and they'll all have different

27:29Harriet Williamson:And I think as consumers or as fans, we have to decide, do we want to use those platforms? Like if you're an artist, do you want to use the same distributor that they're using? Like from what I can tell, it looks like it's a company in America called Two Lost. I've reached out to them to find out they're a massive platform. They're a big rival to the kind of major label owned distributors now because the majors own most of the kind of self-serve platforms. it's like as an artist you've got to choose which platform you're going to be on and what they think is acceptable and okay and like if your choice between using spotify which might be boosting this in its algorithm or other platforms which are not pushing ai music they've got like koboz who sponsor this they have human curators so it's very rare that an ai is going to be recommended because their human team is not going to go oh that that seems like something our audience would like um similarly like tidal like i don't think they necessarily have the same like autoplay of just random stuff that's ticked by the algorithm without any human beings really being involved i think apple don't really push at least to the fore of their home page and places ai music so i think that there's there's a lot that consumers and fans can do like should we be reporting AI personas that are popping up that don't have any logging on them because yeah you might be fine with it but if that's playing to you I don't know I always think of like people's like 14 year old cousin or something who's edgy and anti-establishment and like I was edgy and anti-establishment but I never found myself hating groups of people because of it it's like and I think I'm not suggesting that you're going to end up hating people off the back of this music but you're going to end up being part of a movement and if that movement leads you to a Tommy Robinson rally or like getting involved in supporting political parties then that is like Overton window shifts are one thing but actually becoming part of some of these things

29:32Effie Webb:is a bit more isn't it and that's why I think it was so important to find out who was behind the project right there has to be a level of transparency and accountability and I think that's what the whole i don't know i guess a bit of a victim mentality from the node project over this is about it's because they don't want any scrutiny of who they are and they did want to just let the danny bones persona speak for them because otherwise why not sit in front of a camera yourself why not put your name on it yeah and also we need to know

30:06Harriet Williamson:that it's not i don't know someone in moscow making it another fantastic tbij investigation

30:11Effie Webb:was about this stuff yeah i mean yeah we've sort of been yeah been like inadvertently just in the world of basically islamophobic ai slot which the face especially facebook the algorithm just laps up and two separate kind of operations um we were reporting on and my colleague neve kind of found And these weren't people with far-right ideologies sat behind a desk in the UK, but one in Sri Lanka running a pretty advanced, sophisticated, I suppose, content farm type thing where he was both and still is. And has cited our reporting as well. But teaches other people how to get rich quick, essentially making this kind of slop that hits on the kind of themes that Danny Bones hits on to a lower quality, I suppose, but higher volume.

31:05Effie Webb:And another, like, devout Muslim from Pakistan churning out the same Islamophobic stuff. So, again, that was, you know, there is no one kind of person that is making this content, and the incentives are very, very different. And I think in the case of the Node project and Danny Bones, I don't think it's as straight and narrow as just this is a lucrative operation. I don't get the sense that, although, you know, they're you know they've made a fair amount it's it's not the kind of thing you could quit your day job for necessarily so i think it's a slight if there's a slight in between there of like it being a creative endeavor as they as they say plus a bit of a side hustle and really actually believing in this messaging of christian nationalism that it's just totally divorced from any new testament teachings and anxiety about population replacement um and anger at a country that just doesn't seem to be working for anybody but a few elites which is a sentiment that I as someone on the left really it really resonates with me and I think yeah that's actually true I just come to a different conclusion.

32:13Harriet Williamson:You look at the number of billionaires since Covid and the number of millionaires like all of those graphs show a very distorted inequality in the country.

32:21Effie Webb:Right and that's why there are some issues here that are highlighted by the Danny Bones content that we could potentially find common ground with the fans of this project on but because the conclusion that they've come to is that it's because of muslims islam people on small boats immigration you know that's not something i subscribe to and i think that even if we did in this country get the furthest right most mass deportation doing government it's not going to make life better for most of us it is not going to solve those problems and yeah i hope we don't have to go down the road of actually finding out what that's going to be like and having families and communities completely torn apart to see that it was a fully failed

33:11Harriet Williamson:experiment what is stopping someone listening to this creating their own danny bones who's maybe more extreme or woke or anything that they might want to do with danny bones like could someone just go out and is it like an off the peg you can generate like could someone ruin danny bones's

33:30Effie Webb:reputation oh what literally copped yeah the danny bones avatar type thing yeah like again copyright law you're the expert but like as far as i'm not an expert in copyright law but i've had

33:42Harriet Williamson:but you know, disclaimer, disclaimer, I played one on TV.

33:47Effie Webb:Yeah. Um, I mean, no, I think if the left, if, you know, if the left wanted to use, um, the Danny bones carrot, and I'm not suggesting they do this, but if they wanted to, um, use Danny bones as likeness for, um, spreading a very different message, there would be nothing legally stopping them. I don't think the node project would have any like right to, like you know there wouldn't be a leg to stand on in terms of take down like take this down in terms of because i mean there is a sort of impersonation bit in various terms of service and social media platforms but you're if you're impersonating a ai character i don't think that

34:26Harriet Williamson:stands i was just thinking the i am spartacus kind of thing we could flood danny bones messaging and philly's instagram and his i guess his spotify account and all those things no one's done it yet yeah the um but i also like what we don't really want is people going out and doing like a rap

34:44Effie Webb:battle and making him more famous right exactly there's doing like a blur versus oasis with like ai slop yeah and one of the things that we sort of grapple with around this is the attention that our reporting has brought to his content um but if we are in a place where made up ai characters are intervening in important political moments i think that that was public interest justification enough into looking into danny bones and and who makes him well thank you both for your

35:16Harriet Williamson:time and for the brilliant work you've been doing on this i think it's really important in reporting i think it's there shouldn't it shouldn't be obvious that the changes that need to happen in this country need examples like this like people can pressure their mps and see there's different movements about stopping ai um i'll link to some in the show notes there's some quite good campaigns going on at the moment which um like the stop gbt movement has become huge very quickly it's not necessarily linked with this um i think there's a lot that music industry trade bodies should be doing and i know they're prioritizing ai like pretty much every head of a music industry body i've had on is wanted to talk about ai on the here um i think musicians need to be aware that their work and their likeness could be being used in this way and they need to speak to their copyright holders because often they don't own their own copyrights suno has done deal with different record companies i think artists have to opt in i don't think it's standard that like the entire Polydor records catalog is available for Suno or anything like that.

36:25Harriet Williamson:But big companies have done deals with these organizations. And I think as music fans, I think we need to just think about what are we signal boosting? What are we engaging with? How, if you're seeing stuff like this rise up, how do you support independent media, for instance, so that it can be reported on investigated properly? And there's lots of different things, I think, that music fans can be doing. Is there anything else we've not touched on that you guys wanted to talk about? I think I feel like we've covered everything in a bit more.

36:56Effie Webb:I think, yeah, just on that last point, like it does, I think the monetization thing, it sets for some like, you know, slightly entrepreneurial person who sees the rise of Danny Bones. and you know before we named the creators the lack of any accountability and the money that they were bringing in and the like clout they were getting I suppose that does massively just like throw all accountability out the window and you know I'm sure it is a you know there's more that goes into it than just typing give me a Danny Bones character like there maybe was some early iterations and decisions about how he looked and how to make him consistent across videos etc but people can the bar is getting lower and getting cheaper it looks like so I really don't want this to be a kind of like how to make your Danny Boons go viral thing and I think the platforms need to at the very least make sure that these accounts aren't monetised but also terms and conditions terms of service etc are actually being followed because it shouldn't take journalists having to become the sort of de facto regulators which is often the case in these kind of stories.

38:08Harriet Williamson:Yeah, regulators. Imagine if we actually had them and they operated.

38:11Effie Webb:Imagine. I kind of don't want to give the people behind the Node project an opportunity to say, oh, we've been cancelled by all these platforms. We were cancelled because of reporting. We've been silenced. We've been shut down. I want a human audience to reject Danny Bones as slop and to reject his lyrics as divisive and racist and Islamophobic, particularly the more extreme stuff that's come out in the Slopaganda album because that's like that doesn't give people anywhere to hide in terms of you know whether their ideas have been picked up within a wider sort of marketplace where everything is given a fair hearing that that's sort of what I'd like to see and I think that this is a story that makes things like media literacy so important people need to understand what they're seeing particularly if you're scrolling very quickly through short form videos i can see many many instances where people who are maybe time poor or less media literate might think that a danny bones video is real um i think that's perfectly possible um or at least a video game yeah it's got grand theft vibes hasn't it or at least a piece of art that is human made where the actual human beings involved were being like properly remunerated and you know when you're in a position where you're using a generative ai tool that's already out of the window and also they're talking about being

39:37Harriet Williamson:working class and things it's like well where why aren't you paying workers to make this why are you paying a generative ai model that's owned by billionaires and that is stolen from working

39:47Effie Webb:class artists yeah um yeah and yeah support independent media support independent journalism

39:54Harriet Williamson:made by human beings yeah so this podcast brought you in partnership with kobars we're going to make playlist did you guys have a think about what song you might add to our playlist of songs that give

40:05Effie Webb:you a little bit of pride in where we're from um absolutely um i'm a big fan of the clash it would have to be white man and hammersmith i don't know why it's come to mind but lily allen um london

40:16Harriet Williamson:not ldn we are in london um well thank you both for coming we can find this playlist at john and sound.org um forward slash playlists and if you think of other songs we can add them that playlist will be available alongside all the other episodes where we've made a playlist for different episodes

40:39Harriet Williamson:just quickly to add at the end of this episode one that conversation could have gone a lot of other directions I actually I don't know if you can tell was a little bit more cautious with my words considering the type of topic we were discussing and very, very aware that there are landmines that you can stumble onto when talking about topics like this, which, yeah, I tried. Hopefully, hopefully, um, is one of, I bet it felt like when we finished it, one of the better episodes. Um, and we are approaching a hundred episodes of this podcast. So we will soon be doing some special episodes, but we might take a little bit of a break to get our feet plunged on the ground and back on fire because as you might have noticed this summer this podcast has been a little bit all over the place as to what days the episodes are coming out.

41:31Harriet Williamson:I don't know if you pay attention we aim to release these episodes every Tuesday but yeah for the last few weeks I have been flying solo and kind of putting stuff out weekends when I've got time and stuff like that so we will get back into a much more regular back to work back to school kind of theme and um yeah look back across the hundred episodes as well because i think there are if you're a new listener there's a lot in the archive that's still very much evergreen to dig into and a lot of connected issues topics which might have changed a bit so yeah if you've got any thoughts questions things you'd like to know just drop an email to podcasts at dranninsound.org and um yeah we might do a little bit of a q a episode as well if you've got things to ask but if you listen to the end thank you so much please uh whatsapp this to a friend send a text to someone with a link to this podcast you think would enjoy it there's always one person in our head i think when we're listening to conversations who we think oh yeah this person is thinking about all these things or is completely unaware of all these things and this episode might be really of interest to them thank you for spreading the word i have been sean adams the host of the drowning sound podcast this episode was produced by george amuni our new producer and you have been you this podcast is brought to you in partnership with Cobuzz and you can go to drowningsound.org forward slash playlists to find our companion playlist for this episode and many others the companion playlist this time around is a british pride playlist which harriet and effie picked some great tracks for that's drowningsound.org forward slash playlists that's all for now see you next time bye

43:16To be continued...