Putting the Fans First

31:08Then you're going to get around the table to talk about fans' priorities and so on. I think ticketing's very, very interesting and an area I'm sure the review's going to go into. I think I'd like us to really get into some of the practical things that fans you know really um do talk about they're very passionate about ticket in you said the word transparency to me that's immediately what i've been feeling from the beginning i mean if you actually ask a music fan you're paying 70 pounds for this ticket where do you think that money's going and you're paying 10 pounds fee on top of that where do you think that money's going what's it paying for, they have absolutely no idea.

31:50And they've got absolutely no idea because it is deliberately obscured from them as to where the money's going, the additional ticket fees that go on top and so on. I think we've got to try and really break that culture and be absolutely transparent with fans so they know exactly how much money's going to the promoter, how much is going to the artist, how much is going to the venue, you know. And they deserve that transparency, I think, and lots and lots of ways there's smoke and mirrors, I think, put in the way of fans knowing what's really going on. But there's loads of other practical things too.

32:23In the early days of the Millennium Stadium here, now the Principality Stadium in Cardiff. Continual complaint, no public transport at the end of there. So you're putting on an event, Cardiff calls itself and is proud of its role as a music city, but if people can't get home after the gig and are expected to fend for themselves, what kind of way is that to treat fans. I live in Cofilly, so some of the time it's very difficult for me getting home from gigs. And it does impact my, you know, what I can go to and get involved in. And I guess this is where the difference between music and football really does become quite paramount because it's regularity to the football season, you know, where the match days are going to be, whereas gigs will happen when they happen and maybe all the time.

33:11So it's about learning about how, especially the stadium shows and the bigger shows, it's about learning how that structure works in the off-season for football, but it still needs to be prioritised in what has now become the on-season for live music. And I think accessibility is something that we need to really adopt as something that sits between both industries. And now, Cathy, that is something that you were a pioneering campaigner on, really. And just wondering if you could share with us how that process of engaging with people, just, you know, how you went out and discussed it, how that stadium report, how you opened those doors for people to be able to speak freely.

33:53Yeah, I mean, I think I was actually inspired by an architect who pointed out that a lot of the stadiums have been designed so poorly. And actually the millennium at the time was an example where what hadn't been considered is the impact of when people stand up when a goal is scored to celebrate. that actually the wheelchair platforms behind, these new raised platforms that everybody was so proud of, they weren't high enough. So everybody was being excluded from this. And the architects actually said to us in football, we got that whole era of those stadiums in the 90s wrong and we need to fix it.

34:24But again, interestingly, you know, there was a National Association of Disabled Supporters who had a voice and were able to talk to us about what was needed. I remember people pointing out, you know, I don't necessarily want a free ticket. Like, I run my own company. I've got plenty of money, but I just need to be able to access this football stadium, you know. And I think there was a very patronising attitude at the time, which was very much about free tickets and stuff, rather than actually looking at what adjustments do people need. Do they need a ticket for a carer? So I think the legislation helped, but also the accessible stagia guide that we collectively produced in football and produced with fans, that essentially became law, in that that's now the standard that has to be met.

35:06but it was a very gradual process. We were talking earlier, we were talking about the questions that people ask before going to a gig and how they'll not even expect necessarily to find the accessibility information on the website and it's probably there but actually I think there's an expectation that things will be more difficult so perhaps we do need to communicate the sort of stuff that actually a lot of venues are more accessible than they were but if your experience as somebody who's been trying to go to match it to gigs and has felt unable to and been unable to then that that communication piece is really really important and i think often we were talking earlier as well about timings of gigs and when the band's on and you know there are conflicting sort of ideas about that because obviously you want to pack the place out before the band is on you don't want everybody turning up five minutes before but actually sometimes particularly if you're relying on accessible transport you need to know those things i think the one the key thing in accessibility we found was information is is absolutely golden because if you're if you need you need to plan so much more if you're disabled you need to be able to plan for a match you know the football moving matches to a 12 30 kickoff for somebody who's who's got a book a carer to transport them halfway across the country it's not easy and i think i think that's where football suffered a lot i think in terms of moving timings around, but at least generally the reliability of gigs is better.

36:34I actually did check out the accessibility information about Blackweir this summer in Cardiff, which is a new venue that was an outdoor venue opened up in Cardiff before going, because I was going to be taking someone who had accessibility needs in the end. They weren't able to go, so we didn't go. But actually the information was pretty good that was provided there on the website, and there was distance from where you can park, where you can drop off, where you can get a taxi, how long the walk is likely to be, or if it's wheelchair accessible, to get to the viewing platform, where the toilets are, all the sorts of things you really need to know in those circumstances.

37:11But I did have people communicate with me afterwards who were complaining about things like, well, getting out of the venue afterwards, even the lighting in the park, because in a parkland area, you know, for people who's, you know, these sorts of considerations are really, really important, I think, for the fan experience, so that everybody, which everybody should be able to go if they want to go, everybody should have that opportunity. I think we have a triangle, don't we, between where the venue is, who's going to come to the venue, and then who's going to be a part of the show that's on the stage.

37:44And I think it gives us a map of all of the stakeholders within it. I think we're fortunate to be here today, supported by Cardiff Music City. And Julia, I'd just like to ask you really about the role of a local authority, where the local authority has the resident and then football has the fan. How did that help you, especially in your Guali United journey, to really build and grow a new community? Yeah, I think we're blessed in Cardiff, I'll be honest. And the reason I say that is because when you work at a football club, obviously, you know, you're consistently interfacing with other police forces.

38:23other local authorities, I think South Wales Police would have to be seen as one of the leading police forces in terms of event management. And if you consider, I think, you know, you could have put a pinprick in the calendar this summer from one concert to the next, whether that was Stevie Wender, Oasis, whoever it was. And, you know, for us, the events were brilliant for the city, it profiled the city. You know, when you look at the venue, I know for a fact when Wembley was closed it was Liverpool's home venue for a lot of competitions we loved it and people were coming down on the Friday going to the game on Saturday and by the time the fifth time they come here they were coming like two weeks before because they just really enjoyed it so you know I have to say I think Cardiff as a venue and as a city gets a lot right and they should be credited for that I actually went to the Stevie Wonder concert in the park thought it was really good I thought there was a lot of things that didn't quite work.

39:23The entrance and the egress, I thought, didn't quite work. But the venue itself, you were in a beautiful park, you had some great food offerings. I thought it was superb, to be honest. When you look at the stuff that we're trying to do with Gualia, it's interesting, having been in the men's game for a long time and then for the last two years been operating in the women's game. It's a completely different demographic. So, you know, if you think about, you know, the stereotypical football fan, I know it's changing. but then when you look at our demographic it is young girls, families and then the older generation there's a gap in between when we look at the numbers it sort of falls away at 50 and comes back at 65 and we haven't worked that out yet but certainly for us it's about young girls it's about families it's about at the end of the game the players are so much more accessible in terms of signing autographs, having pictures you know they don't I struggled to start with when we first started thinking shouldn't they be going in for the manager to talk to them now at the end of the game but then realized that actually that's one of the major appeals and the great thing about the women's game as well is very affordable so you know kids are two pound adults are five pound and we're playing an equivalent of league one uh in the men's game so tier three so you know the journey itself from that is a different principle altogether but when you see these young girls looking up at these girls footballers the adulation, the starry eyes it's not Jess Fishlock running out there every week at the moment but certainly for us the adulation and the why of the fan being able to, for young girls even more so, the ability to if they can see it, they can be it and there's not many girl role models in sports, just fish log again, Sophie Ingle probably being two of the biggest ones in Wales, but creating that legacy now going forward and trying to build that out is important Interesting point about age profile isn't it I think as well that you're sort of hinting at as well as the different demographics, because certainly when I was growing up, you know if you saw someone age 30 at a gig you'd say what are you doing here grandad?

41:31It was a very very different profile in a lot of live events and I think we're quite interested actually to both, first of all remember and capture that, but also try to get, hear the voices of younger fans who are coming through. Because I think some of us who've been going to gigs forever kind of have a slightly nostalgic, sentimental view about what we want out of a gig. Maybe go down some steps onto a sticky floor somewhere. And maybe is that necessarily what younger fans want now? Certainly, I think, I just was at my old college last night, and the facilities that students expect these days, compared to what they expected when I was a student is very, very significantly different.

42:11So the survey does have a section for under-18s in it, a differently phrased section because there's safeguarding issues and so on involved in it. We'd really like to try and capture some more of those voices as well. I think, Lucy, this is a really key moment to discuss the power of research. And I'd just, in particular, love to talk to you about your passion for understanding the mindset of the fan, how to do that. So, yeah, being a fan is like a core part of my life as well, being a music fan. Since I was seven years old and I bought Smash Hits magazine, it was a life-changing moment for me.

42:52But I originally wanted to be a music journalist when I read that. But then when I did my degree and later a master's, I realised I could do my dissertation on my favorite band, which was R.E.M. And I realized I could write about music academically, so I thought I could take a different path than being a music journalist. And I just think it's so interesting exploring music fans. So I examine how they connect with the artist, how they connect with each other, so all the drama that goes on, because there's always a lot of drama in fandoms. and also what I'm finding really interesting now is exploring experiences of live music and I think it comes back to their experiences how they articulate that I think is just so, so important especially as you mentioned the different attitudes between age groups I think is really important to capture and we did see some of that in the Music Fans Voice survey I think the younger age group were also very concerned about ticket prices so we do see some different perspectives there that would be interesting to capture and look at further but for me it comes back to again having this insight into how fans articulate their passions I'm very interested in how they voice that and as I said with the dynamic pricing with other ticketing experiences it comes back to this emotional language that they use which I think gives great insight into the care fans have, and also how fandom can connect with our identity as well.

44:33You mentioned the role models and how fandom can be deeply personal to us. Is there something structural about the way that this is perhaps a little bit broken in music? Because I've been thinking about this when I see the tech that is used in football clubs, and for some artists now, where some artists are using amazing tech platforms to reach people, and reach people in different sectors of their fan base with, you know, some people getting WhatsApps and different stuff on social media fields and very, very targeted understanding of what that fan base is doing. There's been some very successful artists, but it seems like it's the minority that are doing that.

45:10And it seems as though there's a gap sometimes as to whether this is the role of the band or the role of the label or the management. I've been an Echo and the Bunnymen fan since I saw them when I was like 14. And the gigs I go to these days, I was the youngest person in the room then and I fear I still am now. and Echo and the Bunnymen are still trying to sell me extra large men's t-shirts. Like they've never produced anything I can actually wear in all of these years. And I think we all have those bands that are almost like our season ticket bands that, you know, will buy pretty much everything they put out.

45:41We'll go to every gig. We'll buy the merchandise. But actually they're not. I've yet to find a band that is communicating with me in that way. I think you're absolutely right. I think there are new disruptive people in the industry who are coming and starting to do that and to start to more directly connect fans and artists. And of course, traditionally, fans, well, the artists might say, well, is it really my job to do that? Isn't that the job of the record label? And the management might say, well, I'm getting paid commission, so my interest is to get a big chunk of money out of a record company and get my commission up front.

46:19Traditionally, the band just played, didn't they? The position of a band is kind of thinking, I don't really want to be involved in all this, I just want to make music and get out there and play. And of course now it is entirely possible to have a much more direct relationship with fans. But those old structures are very, very... With a small C, there's nothing more conservative than the music industry, I think, in many, many ways. I think also as the industry evolves evolves and technology becomes central to the marketing, if you have the resources to be able to afford to subscribe to the platforms or to unlock the back end of it, then you have a greater opportunity to do that.

47:00So it almost feels that there... If you can't see it, you can't be it. You can see it, but you still might not be able to be it because you can't afford to play a part of it. If you're on Spotify, you might know you've got so many listeners. You're not getting paid much for it, but you might know you've got so many listeners, but you don't have access to them because Spotify keep that information themselves and others hide behind GDPR and things like that when it's not really a problem in order to deny the information that would allow that direct contact between fans and artists. And I think there's a great deal in what you said about that that we might be able to tease out further.

47:35It makes me feel as though they still haven't acknowledged the fact that I'm there in all of these years. And I think there's that thing that I used to talk about a lot in football about sort of unrequited love, that it is a little bit like that, that you love your football club so much that if you then have to ring them up to add some ticketing issue and they're rude to you, it's like devastating in a way that it wouldn't be if I had to complain at Marks and Spencer or something. And I feel a little bit like that with the bands that I've been into all these years. And then if you found out that they're demanding a cut of the booking fee on top of the ticket price and it's going to them, then that might even more upset you as a fan.

48:09And I do wonder whether things have changed in terms of expectations. I think about the same point that you made, Kevin, about gigs. My first job, again, when I was about 14, was in Probe Records, which is sort of like Spiller's, but with added chaos. My colleagues were people like Pete Burns and Paul Rutherford from Frankie Goes to Hollywood. Everybody in there was in a band. And we were used to places being chaotic and messy. I still miss that when I go to some really good venues that have got amazing acoustics and everything is perfect. I just feel it's too sterile. and I always used to say in football as well our job was to sort of keep the pot simmering but not boiling over I never wanted to sanitise football and I don't want to sanitise the music industry either I think when you look at you look at this summer for instance in Cardiff again let's talk about the Oasis gig I went to the one on the Saturday I like Oasis but years ago you were Oasis or Blur it was that sort of thing and there was a lot of talk about the ticket pricing and the dynamic pricing and the way it went and all the rest of it.

49:13I think the issue is that line between fans and business because they don't really have to be accountable because ultimately, two weeks later, no one was talking about it. Everyone was looking forward to the concert. Therefore, they know today's news is tomorrow's fish and chip wrappers. I'm not saying that's right, but I'm saying that's how they see it. It's a land grab. It's a hit and run. Let's see how much money we can get out of this world tour. When you actually went to the concert, what amazed me was the demographic. I was expecting to see, as Gary Neville would say, middle-aged blokes doing whatever.

49:43But there was such a different audience there. It was genius having Richard Ashcroft on before, because I've never seen a warmer backed with Bittersweet Symphony. Everyone's absolutely on the roof and on walks Oasis. It's like I got goosebumps now. It was completely put together geniusly. But for me, music is like football. My first concert, we broke in through the back of the Arms Park. if there's no police in you that's okay and it was you too the joshua tree and i remember being chased by a steward into this melee of people on the on the on the area or the standing area just looking up at this stage and um the pretenders were on and i didn't really know who they were and i'm like oh my god this is just amazing and then you two come on and bono i remember it bono chucked the edge a rugby ball and said you know because his family are from you know they want you to play on the arms park but they didn't mean rugby football they meant rock and roll and he sliced the ball and then he took all the lights down and and bono just said that's why he plays the guitar and i remember that intimately as if it was yesterday but the one thing that i remember and this is quite funny because we were going through the attic about four weeks ago my wife comes downstairs and says you know all this is all this rubbish in this bag and what i'd done was in that concert because i thought the steward was going to get me i spent 25 minutes looking for somebody who ditched their ticket, their foil.

51:07So I kept that. That's still in that bag. My wife wanted to chuck it out because she thought it was rubbish. You don't have that today. I'm not going to keep my QR code from the Oasis concert today. But people actually pay sometimes for a souvenir printed ticket these days for a concert. They'll actually pay extra to get a souvenir printed ticket. And what you said at the outset I think is the thing, isn't it? Is that some promoters, some big players, we won't name names at this point, think that because fans are so dedicated to the band, so dedicated to the music, will do anything to get a ticket.

51:44Because artists do superficially at least say they don't want a price point that is going to clear demand and supply straight light, you are going to have queues of people going for tickets. It is not acceptable to do what Ticketmaster do, even if they blame Oasis or they blame the management or whatever it is, it's not acceptable to invite people into your store and say the price is 50 quid and then while you're in there to say actually the price is now 80 quid they say it wasn't surge pricing, they say we're offering them a different ticket, they weren't. It's absolute nonsense, it was a deliberate strategy to get people in the door and then shake them down halfway through the process.

52:26That's the sort of thing that really irritates fans and it is unacceptable and and it's that lack of transparency and that exploitation of people's passionate fandom that you know allows that to happen and also allows sometimes you know yes there are reasons you might need a booking fee and so on you want to pay for the administrator for platform and so on but if at the same time the management of the artist is negotiating a third of that fee for them and then pretending they're trying to keep the ticket price down that's not being transparent either. So I think transparency is a key word in all of this.

53:00And if you think about that system as well, when Ticketmaster were doing that 15 years ago, and I was involved with Ticketmaster a little bit in terms of a consultancy I did, you go to Manchester, there was three floors of people with headphones on. There was a legitimate sort of cost towards somebody answering the phone, taking your book in, posting it out to you, and that now's gone, but the ticket fees have gone up and the cost of the administration has greatly plummeted so this gap now has not become an administration fee it's become a revenue stream and that's the problem i had the interesting task of trying to explain to a newish owner of a large football club probably about 15 years ago why dynamic pricing shouldn't work in football and what he couldn't understand was two things he couldn't understand why touts were allowed outside his football ground and one ticket at this time had gone for£17 ,000.

53:54One football ticket turned out to be dead rubber of a game. He didn't understand why the fans could ostensibly do this, but the club couldn't. He also didn't understand why you could do this on a plane and you couldn't do it at football. And what I had to explain, and I think it's the same in music, is that there is a collective experience that we're all having at football or music. I didn't actually care if the person next to me on the plane got their ticket way before me and paid a fiver. I just sort of accept that's the way it is. Because I don't think we're having a collective experience. But I do when I'm at the football.

54:26And I think that's what's really important to fans, actually. We want to make sure that we've paid the same as somebody else. I think it's the same for a gig. I think music is emotional infrastructure. You know, we listen to it when we're sad. We listen to it to get motivated. We listen to it when we're working out. It becomes part of our fabric and our soundtrack of the moments and our existence. and as a result, those communal experiences should be things that we all feel that we can play a part in. And I think accessibility is something that you've looked into extensively, Lisey, that accessibility of cost and how those barriers for entry and that fairness and that need for fairness is something that this review is a fantastic opportunity for us to explore as an industry, listening to fans, because they are the fabric of this.

55:19You know, we provide as an industry, we provide the sounds that people enjoy and the things that people love, but without them, we have nothing too. It's a symbiotic relationship. And I think that that rush for fairness, that is a result of, from the other side of the fence, we had a year-long discussion in this last year about suddenly things being out of control. And I think we were researching and doing this survey during that point and just love to hear from you about how that felt to just read what people were saying and how they wanted to play a part of something that they used to be able to and now they cannot yeah well it really surprised me the depth of feeling that people had i had an inkling that there would be some negative responses to you know dynamic pricing and so on but reading some of the quotes that people said i think sometimes it does create a bit of a barrier between the artist and the fan if dynamic pricing is being used not in every case obviously but there is especially if someone has been shut out excluded from a gig but you're priced out because they literally can't afford a ticket i think within fandom music fandom we often talk about fandom as a sense of home and emotionally warmth place uh warm space um that cultivates a sense of belonging or should cultivate that.

56:42So when people are shut out based on wealth or access, then it can have devastating impacts on the fans. So I think it's a lot about trust and belonging. I was thinking about Robert Smith and The Cure, their strategies for trying to push back against dynamic pricing, which I think has worked really well. A lot of the fans then feel supported they feel that someone is in their corner trying to push back against this and I think it's deepened the bond between the band and their supporters so again I think it comes back to fans being listened to being vouched for and all comes back to transparency as well because at the heart of dynamic pricing is a lot of the times we weren't even told there would be dynamic pricing or what the levels of ticket prices would be and then that sprang on people in a highly pressured situation surrounding this emotional bond they have with a particular act especially with Oasis where many people had hoped dreamt of seeing them live so it mattered to people and what came up in the comments were the key role that family played as well and people wanted to take their children to the concerts So it had a deeper generational meaning.

58:12So when people get priced out, I think it's... That's something that's very familiar, I think, in football. Because again, one of the things I find myself explaining a lot is when owners and people running football groups wouldn't understand, like, why is it such a big deal that we've moved the gig off time? Or why is pricing such a big deal? And I say, this is because this is about people's connection with their families. This is about whether people can spend that time with their children. You know, this is about being able to take your son or your daughter to a football match and bond with them in the way that you bonded with your parents.

58:44And actually, if we're putting this on at a time where that can't happen, this matters deeply to people. You know, this is actually people genuinely panicking, particularly in split families. Am I going to be able to spend my weekends with my children? Am I going to be able to do these things together with them or not? And it's much deeper than really the support for the club, if you like. Like, they're going there because they're having that connection. And it's the same thing often at festivals. But I also think that fans can have a role to play in the platforms they use. Sometimes they don't have a choice, but they're all good players like Twickets, you know, who can be used for tickets, who, you know, will only ever charge a flat fee for a transaction because they're trying to push back against outing.

59:24So I think there are good players out there that, you know, we should think about. I think the depth of feeling is so important. you know that says that people care so much it's part of their lives they will take it with them now they'll take it with them forever and it will last and i think unfortunately we are a little bit over time already so you know in the great set time conversation i apologize for my role as a moderator failing and letting the gig overrun but i just want to say more than anything Firstly, thank you to Julian, to Cathy, to Kevin, to Dr. Lucy. We could probably talk for hours.

1:00:03This is being recorded for the Drowned in Sound podcast, so we will let you know if you want to hear back and find out a little bit more from any of the strands and the threads that people have been talking about. But I just would like to, just for the final bit, just to say thank you to Kevin, and he can let you know what you can do next to get involved in the Fan Lab review. I'll be very brief, because I know we've run over time, Simon, it's a shame we haven't had a branch for more of a dialogue, but afterwards, if anyone wants to chat, please do. Yeah, please, if you can, do get involved. As I say, the survey is carrying on until the end of November.

1:00:39You can find the QR code for it on my Twitter feed or on the website of the Culture Committee in the House of Commons. If you do a quick search on Professor Google, I'm sure we'll turn it up for you. And if there's any way you could spread the word of it, that would be great too in your own networks. We're also doing some work on Reddit and some other social media sites and some of the groups that are interested in live music as well as doing roundtables, panels and events like this around the country in the coming weeks. But we'd really like to hear from you and from any of your fans, customers and so on of anybody in the audience who might like to get involved.

1:01:18And every piece of information that comes in will be properly looked at and captured not by AI, by HI, human intelligence. We'll look at it and produce a draft report in the new year, which hopefully will, as I said at the beginning, help turn the dial in favour of fans. I think that's all I want to say. Thanks. Thank you.

1:01:45Thank you. Sorry, diach hafal. Thank you. Thanks, everyone, for a lovely two days of Soon Connect. go forth, listen to great bands, discover new music, keep supporting artists all year round and support your local venue as well. Very important. Godspeed everyone. Enjoy. Poof out.

1:02:15Well that was a great listen wasn't it? Thanks so much to Sam Duckworth for not just hosting that also ensuring it was recorded so that we could share it with you and if anything in that sparked ideas in you you could write to your mp tell them that there's a fan-led review of live and electronic music taking place are they involved in it are they across their brief have they thought about ticketing for instance which i think is quite a big hot topic not just in music but in general in sports especially there are conversations around ticket pricing fairness of ticketing the dynamic ticketing topic is obviously a really hot one around the oasis dates there's a few other organizations that you could reach out to or follow and um yeah if you follow the dranninsound newsletter just go to dranninsound.org we'll keep you updated about the fan-led review and we'll also keep you updated about various interconnected projects including things like what the music venues trust are up to which sam has a big involvement in and yeah that's all for this week I hope that we can keep this conversation going keep some pressure on the government and help music have the space that it needs I've been Sean Adams you've been you I'll see you next time bye