Ticket Touts Rejoice! DiS & Which? React to The King's Speech

0:00What a letdown. As you may have heard on recent episodes of this podcast, there was hope that the Labour government would make good on its manifesto promise to bring in a cap on the US government. tickets essentially making it very difficult to make a lot of profit out of buying up tickets just to flog them which is often done by bots and is sometimes done by organized crime gangs. It tends from what I can tell to be not even people that live in the UK buying up tickets to big arena and stadium shows sometimes festivals too and then flogging them off for hundreds if not thousands of pounds more than they bought the tickets for.

0:43These were tickets that were available to all of us music fans and they just happened to get in the queue before we did, often using very clever technology. And there are stories of thousands and thousands of pounds that are extracted essentially from the music industry because it's not money going back into the artists, it's not money being used to save venues, it's not commission that managers are taking so they can expand their teams and hire more staff. It's not money which is going towards tour managers and sound engineers and production teams. It's not money being reinvested into restoring venues.

1:23There's a venue restoration fee of like£3.50 on some tickets. We are paying that as fans, but these ticket touts, when they sell a ticket for£3 ,000, not a penny of that goes into fixing the leaky roofs and putting in these security barriers and improving the sound systems in venues, all of which is money which flows into an ecosystem. And I think the reason why I have decided to use quite a few episodes of this podcast in terms of my bandwidth and yours to talk about this is because I think it's such a scandal. I think there's something so awful that people can just buy a ticket with the sole purpose of reselling it.

2:06They're not buying it and selling it because, oh, I didn't realize it's my sister's wedding that day and I can't go see Olivia Rodrigo. I better sell my ticket. Oh, it'd be good if I could make some money off of it because there's a lot of demand for it. I mean, even that, like if you're selling to another music fan, like not using Twickets and making it so that someone just buys it off you for the price you bought it for, you're profiteering off your favorite artists. And again, I think there's something a little bit wrong about that. Yes. Do I begrudge someone who is going to a gig with two mates who buys four tickets and covers their trip by buying two more?

2:46Maybe not, but even still, the person that's buying it off them was a fan who, yes, they may be loaded. They might be from generational wealth and they could afford that expensive ticket, but it's not money going to the artist, it's money going to you. And I think there's something about the fact that a Labour government, the hint is in the name, Labour, workers, not the landowners, not the company owners, about the people that do the work. And I don't see that this is this dereliction of duty, this thing they've promised. In fact, I wanted to tell you a little bit about why I'm so incensed by this because it was in 2012 I saw a documentary on Channel 4's dispatches called The Great Ticket Scandal and the first thing that's shocking about this documentary that I didn't really remember until I was googling it was actually there was a high court ruling that allowed the documentary to be shown because Viagogo and the other companies featured in the documentary did not want it to go out.

3:46That's how bad ticket touts are and this was something that was even more of a wake-up call for me like I've never been a fan of touts as you might have been able to tell from my introduction so far but I was incensed when I discovered that in 2010 a Labour MP called Sharon Hodgson introduced a private members bill which is when an MP can put something forward to the house that people can vote on so in 2010 this was two years before the dispatches documentary in 2012 she said there should be a 10 % cap on the resale of ticket markups and the only reason the industrial scale touting as it was described didn't go through was because another mp used up all the time in her build and get disgust i mean disgust and disgusting in the same sentence so in 2015 there was a bit more actions that's five years later the competition and markets authority who You are an organization that's meant to be out there to stop us from being, as consumers, of being ripped off by anti-competitive things that happen.

4:58And they did a proper look and they made an agreement with Get Me In, Seatwave, StubHub and Viagogo, who are the big ticket hub companies. The Consumer Rights Act in 2015 included some obligations for these people, which was intended to protect us, the music fans, and the consumer of tickets. And not a lot happened, as you might know. There was a few things in there which made things slightly better, but it's nothing that these people couldn't get around. In 2016, there was then a guy called Professor Michael Watterson at Warwick University, who published an independent review of the protections needed to improve online secondary ticketing, which is a very polite way of talking about touting, or in America, I think people refer to it as scalping.

5:50So in the July of 2016, the Music Managers Forum helped establish the Fanfare Alliance, and you will remember if you are a regular listener, and if you're not, welcome. Back in November, I spoke to Adam Webb from the Fanfare Alliance, and that was created back in 2016. And they had a mission to try and improve these things. In 2016, we obviously had Brexit and a load of other things going on. So the government was very busy. But in 2017, the Digital Economy Act banned ticket touts. The Conservative government put this through. But have ticket touts been banned? No. The all party parliamentary group, which is like a group of MPs from different parties, as the name suggests.

6:38So Tories and Lib Dems and Labour, and there wasn't maybe a Green MP if Caroline Lucas was involved at the time, sat in on a ticket abuse bill, which was co-chaired by Sharon Hodgson, who I mentioned previously. And they were holding evidence sessions about ticket abuse. In 2018, the Advertising Standards authority looked into misleading prices and there were some bot regulations to try and prevent bots buying tickets. Do you feel like bots have stopped buying tickets? Because I don't. I think it just stopped them from operating in the UK. So you can set up a server farm anywhere in the world, I imagine, and probably get around that law.

7:20Such is the issues with digital laws. Anyway, I am just speculating. I do not know exactly. I just have a few notes here and I'm trying to keep this as quick as possible and obviously failing. In 2021, the competition and markets authority recommended tougher laws and in Ireland, they banned ticket touting. Yes, in 2021, Ireland banned ticket touting, essentially making it so that you can resell a ticket for a profit. As someone of Irish heritage with a family line that goes back in Limerick and places, it's good to have some pride for where you're from and all the good things that they do. In 2023, the government rejects the Competition and Markets Authority suggestion.

8:04That was two years after the 2021 recommendation when live music was just flickering back into action after COVID. And no, they did not stop you from doing things like speculative trading, which we talked about in a recent episode of the podcast, where you can put a ticket on sale that you don't even own yet for a show that's not sold out. and flog that ticket for two to three times the price you just bought it for. In May 2023, the Conservative government formally rejects the CMA's recommendations from 2021. Yeah, it took them two years. And they said it was too soon to conclude that the only way forward was further legislation, which is ridiculous.

8:45So the Fanfare Alliance relaunched its campaign in 2023 for an outright ban for for-profit resale and aligned with the positions of UK Music, who we had Tom Keel on the podcast a while ago, and then Live, who is the body that represents all the promoters, festivals, basically any organisation under the Live Music umbrella, whereas UK Music represents the recorded industry and some companies that work in Live Music. In 2024, the Labour Manifesto, and this is what I mentioned at the start of the episode, they committed as a government, if we get into power, we are going to put fans back at the heart of events by introducing new consumer protections on ticket resales.

9:26That's the actual wording in the Labour Manifesto. I mean, as a music fan, reading things like that, thinking, wow, if these people get into power, we might finally have something happen. And then Oasis tickets went on sale for their reunion tour. And ticketing became a big hot topic in the UK. I remember reading Victoria Derbyshire from Newsnight, write a piece I think it's for the iPaper or the Independent about how awful a process it was trying to buy tickets for her and her family to go see Oasis and how what some people call Ticketmasters dynamic pricing I think they've argued that it's something called tier pricing where like 90 % of the tickets were one price and 10 % were a higher price which is a bit confusing because I'd never heard of that before.

10:16And this, I think, seems to be a way people get around the idea that it's just an algorithm deciding that there's lots of demand. So I guess we're used to that kind of dynamic pricing around things like Uber. So if it starts raining and loads more people suddenly want to jump in a cab, the price goes up. So anyway, all that stuff in the Labour manifesto, all sounding good. A big year for ticket discourse. you would think it would be a big priority. Well, there was a consultation after Labour got into power and that consultation took forever for the results that came out. So Dua Lipa and Coldplay started kicking off in the news.

10:55They wrote an open letter with various music managers, companies and all sorts of different organisations. And a few days later, the Labour government put out a press release saying that they were still putting fans first and that they were going to make a change, which made everyone think, great, when the King's speech comes along, which is when the government announces in this session of parliament, these are the things that be the priority for the next year. The King reads out a long list. But guess what happened yesterday? As I'm speaking to you today on Thursday, the 14th of May, on the 13th of May, the King's speech happened.

11:30There was no mention of putting fans first. In fact, there was a small mention in the, I think it's over 100 pages, PDF, which got published after the King's speech with all the things which the government are going to do. And they mentioned a draft bill. So we are now in 2026. Sharon Hodgson tried to put a bill through 16 years ago in 2010. I became much more engaged in this topic in 2012 after our Dispatches documentary. I have sat through hearing things like Sajid Javid, the culture minister, when he got into power, someone dug up a quote with him just saying that ticket touts were just like good entrepreneurs or something.

12:16And obviously I wasn't expecting the Tory government to go out of their way to do this. But we've got a Labour government now, right? And that's, they're meant to be on the side of the workforce and Labour. So yeah, as you might have noticed a few weeks ago, it sounded like the King's speech wasn't going to include the bill that we were were all hoping for that would make the reseller tickets much like it is an island something that's not a for-profit business or industry but sadly it's not the case so even though which magazine managed to get almost all of the live industry to agree um sadly like if ticketmaster live nation the music venues trust um loads of big management companies that work with artists like radiohead and Keane and Iron Maiden, all these kinds of people.

13:07And if in the weeks before the King's speech, the Fanfare Alliance are putting out posts and people like Robert Smith are resharing them from The Cure and Sam Fender and Radiohead and Coldplay and all these just huge, huge artists, and not just huge artists in the music world, they're also huge contributors to our economy. As Tom Keel mentioned on the podcast, the guy from UK Music, he said all about the soft power that we have. anyway you can tell where we're at so which published their letter a couple of weeks ago nothing happened there's only a draft bill which means essentially more consultations more kicking the cans down the road no real sense of what's going to happen next so i thought i should catch up with cat from which and find out what's been said and what's happened and then at the end of this podcast i've got a little note from adam webb from fanfare alliance with his thoughts on where we might be headed next but i think if there's one one thing that you should really consider is that a few weeks ago the cms committee published its um lord brennan's fan review of live electronic music um that was the 17th of april and the government have two months to replies for about a month out from the government having to respond to that and that also includes the of the 4 000 fans and stakeholders and people that recommended that got involved in the survey and they recommended that we should have anti-touting legislation and the government needs to respond to that too.

14:36So that to me is like one little thing that's in our pocket that might contribute. Anyway, this is the longest introduction I've ever done to one of our podcasts. I've skimmed through my notes and barely touched on the details of them. Hopefully it made sense. It is 16 years, is that right? If we go back to 2010, yeah. I can do math. I ain't Carol Vorderman. So I think that as an industry, the music industry is up for this end of secondary ticketing. Fans want the end of secondary ticketing. So why are we still here? And I guess that really leads me over to my chat with Kat and what can be done and where which are at with it.

15:20Because as a consumer rights publication, they are really across this their stop fleecing the fans campaign um is fantastic and i imagine we're going to see the next chapter of that campaign but let's speak to cat and let's find out

15:46well cat welcome back to the drowning sound podcast it was only two weeks ago that we were chatting about a letter the witch wrote to Keir Starmer who at the time of recording is Prime Minister the time this goes out may not be and you wrote a letter co-signed by the music industry asking for the government to include a cap on the resale price of tickets i.e to stop ticket touting at the industrial scale that it's at to protect music fans something which Labour promised to do in their manifesto something that Labour MPs I've heard promised to do at events for the last decade or so when we're in power we will do this um and something which in november they announced in a press release that they would do today as we sit and record this the king's speech has just gone out and what was missing uh well this the entire issue um yeah about ticketing for for music fans and sports fans but that's that's slightly different um where it was in the the separate documentation wasn't it page 69 oh i went through i went through the document i was like there it is there's a draft bill and a draft bill essentially means that it's not going to be put into law they're going to put a draft out which then goes for a consultation or something is that your understanding?

17:01Yeah, which is obviously quite disappointing for everyone involved for many reasons because what this probably will lead to is lengthy consultations and kicking it down the line and maybe even we'll just get kicked off the government's agenda altogether but what we're really concerned about is that this kind of opens the door for potentially secondary ticketing websites to kind of water down the legislation or try and get their two pence in and those websites there's via gogo there's probably five or six others which when you google they suddenly pop up and right yeah and they're often the top results and as we talked about last time often they're selling tickets which are still on sale at a gig the speculative ticketing where you just buy a ticket and it's you could have bought it straight from the venue or Ticketmaster or somewhere.

17:52Then there's the issues around fraudulent tickets, which is slightly separate to this, but it's huge. Action frauds, press releases always astound me when they say how much money fake tickets have been sold for, which again is fans thinking, well, it's a ticket. It's more than I expected to pay for it. Someone's DMing them on Facebook or they find a website online that looks legit and all of these things feel like really basic things that music fans should be protected from yeah so the letter which wrote to Keir Starmer was really powerful it was co-signed by Live Nation Music Venues Trust basically it was about eight or nine different companies that don't always sit on the same page when it comes to advocating for the live industry they're often in loggerheads for commercial reasons or but it was great to see the industry come together with you to sign that letter and now nothing so what's which his response been um since the king's speech came out i mean we definitely appreciated the response um and his commitment to introducing legislation so that was all thumbs up um but you know it is kind of meaningless without clarity and you know how long it's going to take and you know we were really hoping it was going to be in the king's speech for that reason because it really um locks in that timeline essentially but yeah i think the stance at which really is that the government needs to move beyond rhetoric and deliver on its promises because it did promise that it was going to resolve this for us um you know just last week in in that letter he wrote about how he wants to put a stop to the touts as soon as possible if it was in the king's king's speech it would have been done within the next 12 months um so it's not completely adding up um but a draft bill as a start.

19:34But yeah, we were kind of already a bit sceptical about whether it was going to get included in the King's speech because of the letter, because he used the wordings, get it right the first time. So we were already a bit like, hmm, okay, potentially we're not going to get what we want here. But at least it was, at least it was included to some extent. But yeah, I think disappointed is the main word we'd use. And have you heard of many of the co-signatories of the letter. Like I've got some quotes that have come in from a couple of the organizations. There was one here from Adam from Fanfares Alliance.

20:09Yeah. He said that we fully support the government's commitment to put fans first, ban ticket touting as soon as possible in quotation. However, draft legislation offers a curiously circuitous, I can say that word, route to deliver these long promised reforms. Why take the long road when you protect music fans today? there's a really long quote here as well from the Music Managers Forum like again they're glad to be reassured like you guys are that something will happen but again hugely disappointing is the word the Music Managers Forum use have you did you hear anything from any of the other co-signatories yet or I think from from what I've heard the general consensus is is that that you know the draft bill is is not acceptable so yeah it's quite curious because I mean there have been other things like the online safety act um that is a lot more complex compared to what we're we purposely made it quite simple what we wanted um could you remind people what that was of just not um charging more than what you paid for it with face value um in terms of like keeping secondary ticketing and touts to stop exploiting customers um but also these avoidable fees and you know things like dynamic pricing just to make sure that you know fans who want to go to these music events aren't being exploited and they're not being charged more than they need to quite simple stuff really simple um and also that just means if a platform is doing that then you put fines on them or you make that website blocked like there's loads accountable yeah it's like yes people could resell their ticket and i think in ireland they've managed to do it haven't they and i think there's a few other countries where you can't resell a ticket you can't resell a ticket to the fa cup final or things like that and it's like i think you mentioned there was a sports related building.

21:55Yeah, so I don't want to get this wrong. So it's slightly different with sporting. There's a different note in the King's Speech and this aims to deter touts by creating a UK-wide offence for the resale of tickets for major sporting events. And this will also ensure greater access to tickets for fans. So there is a difference, but that sounds pretty good for music fans, no? So why couldn't that have... I guess the difference is Keir Starmer goes to see Arsenal every week and he doesn't go to a gig every week yeah is that the difference potentially it's yeah it's it's just disheartening because it this would have been a real easy win it's implementable really easily and really quickly and it's just they've chosen not to because it's quite a few years since which started to stop fleecing fans campaign and i had a look back and i think it's 12 2012 was the first time someone tried to do something in parliament about this so it's not like it's a new thing it was a labor mp as well that's been really pushing on it i think she's called sharon hodgson i thought this is such an open goal like if which the company that we know for best buys of white goods one of the most trusted company companies in the country alongside the bbc is calling on consumer protections you would think that if the live industry also agree that what's stopping the government like who are they protecting they're protecting people in as you said last time in Dubai and Delaware yeah like using tax breaks like from what i understand often organized crime are buying up tickets with bots and selling them and there's been some research into that i don't know how legit that all is but i think that's something if the government wants to do online safety if someone's dming you on facebook asking for your bank details that is not safe yeah it's true like and that is not going to via go go to buy a ticket that's going that's someone caught like almost every event i see on Facebook someone's got I've got four tickets available I can't make it it's like it's convenient why it's always four yeah it's so true you see that all the time on Instagram and TikTok you always go on an artist page it's always like oh bought too many or I didn't realize my friend had bought some and it's the same every time it's a recurring thing um again it just would be really easy to just pick up on I guess the government would argue that they're prioritizing other things like the NHS or or whatever but they're prioritizing sport like what's the difference buying a ticket to go to the FA Cup final versus going to see Olivia Rodrigo.

24:19Like often these events, like if you buy tickets to the tennis at the O2, what's the difference of buying a ticket to a gig at the O2? I don't understand the difference. I think to me what it just comes down to is the fact that it just was such a simple and easy legislation. I think that's what it comes down to at the end of the day, that they can say they're prioritising other things. But this would have been such a quick, easy thing to just implement. And the fact that they haven't, disappointing. So does Which have a plan B? Is there a plot for what people should be doing next? What can fans do?

24:49So, yeah, obviously we've got our... You're going to open the folder, Mark, do you have a plan? Yeah, Mark. So obviously we've got our Stop Fleecing Fans campaign. So I think at the moment we've not got any concrete plans. We're just kind of going to see how things unravel and just make sure that these other ticketing agents aren't able to come in and kind of mould whatever the bill is, whatever would happen into something that suits them. That's what we're really concerned about. And we want to make sure that the government does actually do what they're saying they're going to do. And this isn't a delaying tactic to just, you know, kick out the grass.

25:24Because even in the draft, there's like this long document that came with the King's speech. Even in there, the government's analysis suggests that the measures could save around£1.2 million annually and with more than 900 ,000 tickets bought directly from primary sellers each year. so it's like they understand the scale of the problem like it would reduce the average ticket price by 37 pounds during a cost of living crisis that's the thing we're all being we're all being really squeezed at the moment we're all counting our pennies um and i think actually i heard recently that people are buying more events than they are products so i think we're like that's where we're choosing to spend our money so it really impacts everyone um so yeah again i feel like i'm a broken record if you pardon the pun but you know it's just it really impacts everyone it was an easy win and also would have saved people a lot of money so yeah open goal and just yeah disappointing

26:24this is the dronin sound podcast and this week's episode is brought to you in partnership with kobuzz they are the ethical music streaming platform that we are so grateful for their support and each week we bring you a companion playlist which goes with each episode this week's playlist i am just going to play lots and lots of music by good egg artists and by that i mean some of the artists that are standing up to the government against ticket touts um it's probably just an excuse for me to dive into duo lipper's catalogue because i really love some of the singles and I should probably know more.

27:02So you can expect tunes by Dua Lipa and The Cure and maybe some Sound Fender. And so if you just head to dranninsound.org forward slash playlist, you can find the companion playlist for this episode and all of our recent episodes that have been brought to you in partnership with Cobuzz. I hope you've been enjoying these playlists and I hope that you've used the free trial to check out the platform to hear music in much higher quality and artists get a much better royalty. And those are two of the things that in our Spotify X this episode, our specialist guests recommended Cobuzz for because they seem to be one of the better platforms.

27:39So head to joraninsound.org forward slash playlist to hear our playlist and get your free 30-day trial.

27:56so last time we spoke which published the letter co-signed as i said before by all these organizations like massive artists managers like all these different people yeah do you leave her on there yeah very exciting what what did it feel like to put something like that out in the world be part of a campaign like that like i'm thinking there's someone listening to this today that might ticket tower might not be the thing they want to campaign on like how does it feel to be involved in a project like that i mean on a personal level in terms of like working at which i mean it's it's amazing kind of being able to to do these things that will actually help people i think that's what which is all about right we not only do we as you know us for you know review dishwashers and tumble dryers um but we we we are we are going out there we are fighting in the field and things like this you know people might not associate it with which because they're like oh you know consumers but you know as we've talked about it impacts everyone think about the last time you bought a ticket for something um might not be you know a massive pop star but it might be for a different event it really impacts everyone and to see everyone um be so excited and championing our campaign you know across social media and the news and and you know just general rhetoric online and discourse.

29:08It felt good, but it also just proved that this is such an important issue and one that we're not going to give up on just because it's not been explicitly mentioned in the speaking speech. It's incredibly popular. I would not be surprised if Nigel Farage and people that are populist and the Green Party, like I haven't heard any of them talk about it. And it's like something where I think the Music Fans Voice Survey, 91 % of people that filled it in think there should be a cap. The fan-led review, that's like 4 ,000 fans 8 ,000 fans filling in a survey all think the secondary ticketing is bad and wrong and should end and also it'd be quite a breath of fresh air wouldn't it not to get too political but I feel like you know there's a lot of negative things behind people's campaigns at the moment there's a lot of anger and hate at the moment so to have something like this on your manifesto I think not only would be a positive point but would impact everyone in a great way and I think music also brings people not to sound soppy But I think music really does bring people together and it's the kind of something that we can all unite on.

30:07I know over in America, I know it's changed a little bit, but Taylor Swift, for example, wasn't it a whole thing of like she's the only one who could unite both Republicans and Democrats. So it really just shows that music can transcend all of that. So, yeah, hopefully it will become on people's manifestos. But, you know, hopefully it's actually just Labour who just. Yeah, it feels like such an open door to push on. And just a light tap. there's the fan led review which has got lots of suggestions in there I know there's another bill around ticketing it's not around secondary ticketing but I think there's something else I think it's Rupert Huck is trying to push through around Ticketmaster and the kind of the dynamic pricing where your price goes up like an Uber does when it's raining the unexpected demand of tickets it's like hang on a minute you knew how much demand there was they're a very popular band and they're not playing a hundred shows so I think there is it's a choice as well it's not like oh no so I think that there's other things that may happen but none of them are really as linked and as simple as this and I just really hope that if there is a change of leadership or if there's a change of culture secretary or any of these things that might happen in the next few weeks or months that someone's like no we should make this priority I know we can't do like Trump signing an executive order to like just change the law on something.

31:34It has to go through the unelected House of Lords with the hereditary peers and all those kinds of people. And then it has to go back to Parliament and be debated. It's like such a laborious, long process, considering they've already done a consultation, which it took Dua Lipa and Coldplay and people to get the government to then respond and say they were going to do something. They've already got it in their manifesto from the last election. So it's already something they've pledged to do. I'm sure the Hereditary appears in the House of Lords like a little two-step at a concert now and then so it impacts them too so hopefully they'll agree and get it forward Kat, I hope the next time we speak we can talk about how this worked what a great campaign it was and that you've helped push things across the line for music fans because people are being fleeced the words you used for your campaign is the perfect word and I think that I'm stunned that one that you managed to that letter and got all those organizations to agree that all the biggest artists in the world are backing this and it's not gone through and it seems farcical that we're sitting here on a day when the king speech came out where it could have just been a line going yes we're going to do this thing we've already said we're going to do yeah even if it was just in the document i would have accepted that exactly it's only the king to do it a shout out just a little it's a little note in the document yeah hopefully and hopefully we'll have lots of concerts that we'll be able to afford to go to because they won't be so overpriced cool well hopefully i will see you at ariana grande if you manage to get a ticket and it's not from a tout i know it's looking that way well thanks thanks for coming in cat cheers

33:14so grateful to cat for coming in to chat to us um it's a bit of a weird chat because she was so good at distilling stuff. She was like, is that it? Which is quite funny. I think people are so used to podcasts being quite long. But on the flip side, they're probably used to going on the news and like getting like all of like five minutes to get across quite a complex topic and explain it in a way that a mainstream audience can understand. I also think I got the page number wrong in the PDF. It's actually page 64. I must have just had 69 on my brain. But yeah, I think there's a lot that's coming out from different organizations.

33:55And I was just looking up the music fans voice Instagram account. Actually has quotes from pretty much every organization that co-signed the letter. And there's things on there. UK Music said it's a betrayal of music fans. The Fanfare Alliance said, why take the long road when you can protect music fans today? Which definitely echoes my feeling. Like, I don't understand what the blocker is. live the body that represents the live industry said a draft bill is not enough live music is nothing without millions of fans you can pack out venues and festivals across the country every week very true that virgin media virgin media o2 responds to the government draft ticketing bill o2 is disappointed to see only draft legislation including the king's speech what is a step forward it simply does not go far enough and the delays will hit the pockets of concert goers hard and O2 to be fair to them they obviously sponsor the biggest arena in London at least I think it is I don't think there's anything bigger um and they have involvement in live music they also have done various different reports over the years looking into things like tickets out so um good for them for speaking up um we've already had the which one Ticketmaster UK not always the um everyone's friendliest favorite company um no definitive legislative action to stop ticket touts profiteering is disappointing.

35:19As long as touts are allowed to make huge profits reselling tickets on other platforms, the problem will continue. A government spokesperson has said, as the Prime Minister has made clear, we remain fully committed to stamping out ticket touting for good. For too long, fans have been ripped off, and we're determined to right that wrong. That's why we are taking the time to get this right by bringing forward draft legislation, not legislative, to ensure that our measures are truly effective, enforceable and future-proof, and fans get the protection and security they have always deserved. I will not be entering any competitions to read autocue, but I'm just reading off of a screen with the microphone slightly over the monitor, which is not the best place for it.

36:07So yeah, those are all the things the industry has said. I think it's time to hear from Adam Webb from the Fanfare Alliance, who, if you've not listened to the episode we did when the government announced this bill, is well worth digging into because he is the person that's been in the trenches of this and really knows his stuff. So I was really keen to hear what he had to say. Hi, Sean. Adam here from Fanfare Alliance. Hope you are well and thanks for having me on. What's my reaction to today's news? Well, not massively surprised because it was trailed in the Financial Times and I guess reading between the lines of Keir Starmer's letter to live music fans last week I guess we were we all knew what was going to be coming so sort of slightly glass half full and that draft legislation is better than no legislation but when the statements are talking about stamping out ticket touting and doing it as quickly as possible quite clearly draft legislation is not doing it as quickly as possible the notes we've had from the Department of Culture as well, you know, again, it's peppered with words like, you know, we intend to commit.