What If You Could Taste Music? kwes. on his "dreamy" new LP on Warp

0:00As a music fan, I know that music has an extraordinary power to move me in ways, make me feel things, make me understand a little more that I'm not alone in the world. And although we talk a lot about the function music plays in the life of music fans, I don't know how much I've heard people talk about the function and the role that making music plays in the role of the lives of musicians. and with today's guest he's made a record on the other side of burnout having worked with and this is going to sound like quite a ridiculous list of artists but he's worked with loyal carna he worked with damon alban on producing some tracks with bobby womack he's worked with solange he's worked with kalala he's worked with mikachu before they became mika levi he's worked with Dells, he's worked with Speech the Bell, he's worked with Rosie Lowe, that Rosie Lowe track is on this week's playlist which I'll tell you a little bit more about in a second.

0:59He's worked with Nao, Kano, the list goes on and on. He's worked with his brother Kobe Say, he's worked on so many phenomenal tracks. He's also got some production credits including on the most recent record by Lucy Rose which is well worth digging into and if you know those songs then you will know that this week's guest is Quez, who signed to the Warp label, who many years ago released his debut album. And since then, he's released an EP, a couple of tracks, and he's done an extraordinary soundtrack for Rain, Alan Miller's brilliant Rye Lane film. And he's just about to release as I record this, which means by the time you hear this, his brand new record, Kinds, will be available and to say that I was bowled over by it the first time I listened to it would be an understatement and I think you will hear in this episode how much I love the record it's a beautiful piece of what you could call ambient music but it's quite a loud feeling record there's a lot of emotions that bubble up in it and a lot of power to what he's doing I just think it's an extraordinary piece of work it's an instrumental piece of music you can zone out to and I sort of psychedelic kind of way.

2:17He is a guy, born and raised in Lewisham in South London, now lives in North London. And when he's not working with Sampha or doing things with the XX or working with Joe Gardard from Hot Chip or Nubia Garcia or any number of other amazing artists, he is an artist in his own right and he's pretty extraordinary. If you're a regular Dranin Sound reader, you might be familiar with his music. But if you're not, hopefully you enjoy this conversation with an exceptional artist who has made an early contender for album of the year lists. Maybe not the album of the year, I think a very special record that's going to get recognised over the course of time.

2:56In this episode, we discuss the installation he did at the Barbican, the special performance he did at the Tate Gallery in London, and we also just talked through some of the work he's done and stated towards the end because I love his idea about what music tastes like. And that is not meant to be a hook and tease. It is just a wonderful bit of brain wizardry from an artist as interesting as Quez. So the other thing to say this week is that every week I make a playlist to compliment and be a companion to this podcast. And this week's playlist features tracks by Quez. It also features those long lists of artists I just mentioned that he's collaborated with, played on the songs by and produced tracks by and you can find all of those tracks if you go to dranninsound.org forward slash playlists and you can listen to it on the ethical music streaming service kobuz who i'm proud to say are the partner on this podcast if you jump back a few episodes to our spotify exodus episode and our ethical alternatives episode you will hear why we think it's the platform of choice and they think we're the podcast of choice and uh yeah so you can listen to that playlist there in high quality and hopefully you enjoy the tracks all that's left to say is i'm sean adams this is the drowning sound podcast a podcast helping music fans understand the music industry just a little bit better but to be honest it's about solutions how we can change things and how as fans we can play our role in making the music industry and making the world a little bit of a better place.

4:40My listeners will know I do quite long questions sometimes. Yeah. And I thought, what's the shortest question I could possibly ask you to start this interview? Oh, man. What is minimalism? In what context? It was interesting reading about your new record and the word minimalism, I think came up in the press release or something. Yeah. and it's interesting because I don't think it's very minimal and people think if things are gentle that there's a lack but it's like there's so much happening in your records and like your first album is loud and rich but also not that different to this record like in a way it's like it's very you and I thought it was interesting reading the press release when they had to use so many different genres and it's like they can't pin any nail on your, is it a pin on the donkey, isn't it?

5:29It's like, what is it? And I think it was really interesting that, like I was curious if minimalism was the word that you would use. I have a feeling it's probably not. I guess within the context of music, maybe the economy of instrumentation, like using a lot less instrumentation to make music instruments or equipment. And with this record, that's the case. so it's minimal in that respect. But yeah, but I'm kind of thinking about what you just said on you hearing the record as not minimal. It's often like ambient music is described as being this like form of minimalism. And I worked with the composer Max Richter for a year and people talk about Max's music as being minimal.

6:13Then you're like, there's like 47 strings on it. But they're not doing very much, but they're all contributing to each other and they're all part of a layer and the dissonance and everything that's going on. And I learned so much from just like sitting in on a couple of the recording sessions and mixing sessions. And obviously you're a producer and maybe we should begin there. You made this record with Burnout as one of the sub themes that was a kind of lead you to it. I can understand why going through your credits of all the records you've worked on in the last 10, 15 years. Yeah. It is extraordinary the records you've worked on.

6:51And everyone from Solange to Damon Albarn to you've done a film soundtrack. Like, I reckon that sounds pretty busy. Throw in kids and life and everything else. That must have been quite a lot. So whereabouts were you when this record began? It began after we got back from holiday. So I take breaks, but I don't really take... It had been a while since I'd taken a proper holiday, you know, proper time off. And that time, maybe summer 2024, went to Centre Parks. Well, for me, it was the first time going to Centre Parks for my family. Does it still have a weird smell of log fires everywhere? No. Pine and things.

7:33Yeah, I could smell, yeah. That's all I remember when there's a kid once. That's all I really remember of it. The chlorine of the pool and the pine. Oh, man, yeah. Did you, which Centre Parks did you go to? I think I went to the Longleat one. Is that Nottingham? Yeah. I went to the one just near Suffolk. Yeah. Elverdon. Oh, I think you go past that on the way to Latitude if you go the long way. It's like, yeah, it looks really lush around that way. It's like a beautiful part of the country, isn't it? It's gorgeous and it's all pretty flat. So it's really easy to kind of cycle around with the kids.

8:09Yeah, it was just so good. And did you feel, not to use a bike pun, but like a stabilizer to come off a bit by having some time off? Oh, what? by having a break did you did you realise that you needed the break oh yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely so no it was good yeah I'm still I'm still waking up you're still thinking about minimalism yeah yeah no it was it was so much needed but really what kind of I was thinking I was still thinking about the record then thinking oh you know but it was after we got back from the holiday then I started work on the record and what had you been working on before the holiday we should I will obviously do an introduction to this podcast and people will have a fair idea of some of the records you've worked on.

8:54Yeah. But whereabouts were you at? Do you remember? Actually, I actually can't remember. I guess, no, the MPGs had just happened. Yeah, that's the Music Producer Guild Awards. Yeah, Music Producer Guild Awards. I'm trying to think what I was working on that year. Might be something that's not even come out yet based on the timelines of records sometimes. Yeah, potentially. Don't worry, it's not a test. Yeah, yeah. So you were in a, you just like, I think the description in the press release was that you were in a kind of state of burnout. You saw your daughter knock over a glass of water and all the colours run.

9:29And she was really chilled about it. And you were like, what was the message that you took from that moment? That happened after the holiday. So I think it would have been during the summer holidays. Yeah. And we're just having breakfast or whatever. She knocked the drink over. It wasn't even that much of a tantrum. She was kind of a little annoyed about it, and then she just carried on. I was like, of course. Yeah, so actually, so maybe a couple days before that, I'd put the kids to bed after we got back from the holiday, and then I kind of was like, oh, yeah, maybe I can start a record now. But then the event with my daughter happened, and I was like, okay, that's what the record has to be.

10:08So that feeling of what was it the record had to be? What was the message you took from it? Um, well, more, it was more kind of a note, um, for the, for the process, um, of making the record. Um, just kind of not overthinking it and just to have fun with it and to just, um, let the record be what it, what it is. And you'd been busy for, I think it's eight years between the records? Yeah. And had you been wanting to start a record for a while and then... I think even before that, because it was an EP that came out eight years ago. Yeah. But my last album was, I think, 12 or 13 years ago, something like that.

10:49I think when I looked through the list of artists you've worked with, actually, I was thinking, they're either artists that have been nominated for the Mercury Prize, or artists that have been nominated for our alternative one, the Neptune Prize. And when people talk about, like, London scene and all the rich and weird and wonderful music that's come out of it over the last decade and a half or more, like, you've been at the epicentre of all that. how has it felt to be in the middle of or do you even did even know do you even notice you're in the middle of it kind of just you're just getting on with it yeah so you're not really kind of you know there are moments you know someone might remind you my brother might remind me something i've worked on i was like oh yeah but yeah when you're in it you're just you're just getting on with it and then there's another thing that yeah another project that comes up and then you just yeah just following your interests so will you build slowly building up a reservoir if i want make a record and there's all these things in my head and then you're like i've finally got a block of time where i can sit down and start yeah so that's the thing i thought that was happening and what i thought was going to become my second album and i ended up kind of shelving and then some of it ended up in the rye lane soundtrack um then some of it ended up in other people's music but kind of repurposed and kind of written yeah like gone into other like other directions but yeah this this record i kind of started from scratch after the holiday and so the record actually took me about six months maybe around six six months on and off to to make and was making the record a kind of bomb for you of making something that was gentle but rich i guess we'll say rather than minimalist i guess so yeah yeah um yeah because it was a way i could just just kind of get into a flow state i mean i could do that with you know working on other people's records but is it slightly different than when it's your own yeah definitely because i'm not work i was i wasn't working with anyone else on this record it was just just me i could just zone is weird I find producing other people's podcasts writing their show notes doing the promo and marketing all that stuff a lot easier than like it's like I've spent a couple of hours researching you and like we're gonna turn up a chat and then someone's gonna go so what's the clip and I'm like I don't know I'm like in the soup of it and it's like and I it's not quite the same but it's like sometimes when I write my own when I'm writing like I'll read the article back and I don't spot any errors and i'll read someone else as a sub editor and i'm like oh you could make this bit slightly better and it's like why do our brains when it's our own thing not because we're i guess we're in it a bit more aren't we and like that sense of where's your head at and like because i was curious listening to the record with the sort of the backdrop of you saying you'd come out of this like really busy period you're making this record and a lot of people talk about making music is catharsis um and often that's noisy records and like like i don't know if there's another way you'd explain like what the process felt like because i think as listeners we get a real oh this record is a real bomb for me or this is really comforting or disorientating or like all the sensory wonderful things that music does for and to us but i think the process of making does a lot of the similar things from a lot of the artists I speak to.

14:18And we often just hear terms like catharsis, which I don't think is necessarily often angry people getting their rage out. How would you describe the process of making it and what it did for you? I guess, so you associate catharsis with heavier records? I don't know, it's just the word that often comes up. like this because because the record was definitely it was definitely a cathartic process part of the record i'd say um catharsis was definitely in there as an emotion also meditative because i think there's a lot of distortion there's a lot of distortion there's a lot of overdrive and a lot of kind of feedback in the record too but it's all kind of it's come out as some sort of wash isn't it yeah well i i like that in a way in a way you've sort of got a lot of the feeling of my buddy valentine but it's like they're in the next room rather than like right in your face that's that's really yeah i love that you can have that one there's just stick a quote um but is there something in that process of making it like you talked about getting to a flow state um for anyone that doesn't know what that feels like how does that feel for you i don't know what that i guess i was half i was i was almost half asleep the whole time making a record i make a lot of my creative decisions when i'm sort of half asleep that's on other people's records um and it's it's normally kind of a lottery a bit of a lottery as to whether the ideas are good or not um but with this record i was kind of always i worked on the record a lot at night and in the early hours and when everyone's asleep so um because i'm just kind of not really awake i'm just kind of just just i think it was some vincent i read was when she was producing one of her records she had to not make too much noise because she was in a flat in new york and she and it changed decisions she was making in like what she was doing and how she was making it i think it was some vincent it might be someone else there's a few people i think i I don't remember reading that.

16:31It may well have been, I don't know if it was a second album, maybe the first or second one. Yeah, I think it might be the second, yeah. Yeah. Because the first one was ages ago. Yeah. But she's now become an in-demand producer as well. And it's like, but I guess it's almost that like, the parameter or the restriction that you've worked within. It's like you're in that dreamy state and you're making dreamy music, but you can't be too loud for outside of your headphones. yeah and also that thing of like even if you're doing something that's loud and you've got headphones on I don't know if you record in the box like that but like you're still probably like is this going to wake someone up yeah my room my room at home is quite treated so I mean I worked in headphones a lot so I think not too much of the sound seeped out I don't know I'd listen back through the speakers in the morning as well like an easing you back out of the dreams yeah and then my kids would come in and sometimes give me pointers on that too and yeah and they i think they like the record at first they didn't like the record but i'll get maybe that's the like exposure effect or something yeah you kind of after a while they like it i like that so many times like i remember the first time i heard the pixies and it just sounded like something sounds wrong with it like what and then like you get 10 listens into the record and you're obsessed with everything about it that sounded discordant and disorientating and like some of my favorite records i didn't like on first listen but something about it drew me back and i think there's sometimes like you've done that with your kids already you've got them with taking them somewhere sonically they weren't their palette wasn't ready for it yet it's that marty mcfly scene isn't it but that's the future I guess your kids are going to love it so could you tell me a bit more about the record the titles are all colours you've performed it in galleries you've performed it at the Tate and the Barbican is it a Barbican was it a gallery show at the Barbican yes at the Barbican it was just it was a playback in the conservatory yeah or was it the Curve not the Curve no it's the conservatory they've got that garden bit it's beautiful isn't it yeah no it's gorgeous if anyone's not been the Barbican is like an old it's like is it Bauhaus what's the design called the buildings made Brutalist Brutalist sorry that's the word I was looking for Bauhaus is a style of art not a style of building and and like there's a concert hall in the middle of it there's a cinema but they've got this conservatory that's just full of plants there's ponds that I think it's like carp and stuff in there and I think I remember lilies off the top of my head and I've only been in there once but it was it's a really beautiful space that must have been a magical place to hear what you've been working on it and it was pretty amazing actually um yeah it was it was it was really really great and everyone had it was like a silent oh everyone's listening on headphones yeah but i arrived there at the event just as barbican was closing um because i had you know had to take my daughter a birthday party um earlier in So there wasn't really anyone in the conservatory.

19:43Just me and a few other people who just, you just put the headphones on, walk around. Yeah, and it just added a whole other kind of dimension to the record, I think. And yeah, so I almost associate the record with that experience. That's interesting. Yeah, it was really, really, yeah, it was great. The titles of the songs are colors. Is that how you were hearing the record with those colors? is that yeah so the colors were more kind of reminders to me of the um they're kind of not over thought at all but kind of more kind of what the music evokes to me not so much what i see but more kind of experiences associated with the music and then the colors associated with those experiences yeah is it a pile of files that you have to give names and yeah essentially um and did the colors of the conservatory match the colors in your order have they now warped the colors are they blending with different no no it's the same yeah when i hear the music i was like okay it's that thing and then it's that thing yeah but i also named them after colors so you could take the listener could take whatever they want from it i didn't want to be too arty and just make everything untitled untitled yeah which a lot of ambient records do yeah

21:13Kwesi Sey:hi there it's emma here i'm gay crashing the podcast to quickly tell you about the drowned in sound newsletter every wednesday i invite myself into your inbox with permission of course to share opinion writing and resources tell you about cool things that you should be involved in within the world of music, activism, etc. I also bring track of the week and a little bit of hopeful news for you because we all know that the news cycle can be grim at the best of times. Drowned in Sound newsletter every Wednesday in your inbox. Sign up now.

21:56I thought it was interesting to consider some of the ambient music makers that I like and people like Brian Eno. They're also producers of other people's music. And is there something about making records like this, going completely against the slightly poppier things you've worked on or the stuff that has to work well on the radio or in big rooms? Like, is this, I know it's how you start, like it's not that far from where you started with your first record, but is there something about this type of music that you think that maybe producers and people that are like obsessed with sound like they lean into of like finding this kind of sonic world that you can build I guess there's so much in the sound isn't there that you won't hear upon first listen you know and it's always changing you know the sound is quite amorphous so say you're working with you know like typical band or you know or contemporary pop music there are a few key elements that your ears are kind of drawn to is it something like four or five sounds that that you that you um hear yeah first time and sometimes there's a lot more that you feel yeah yeah yeah there you go because i i think with this kind of music it's just kind of a lot more free and um yeah you can listen to it in so many different ways is it a lack of rules perhaps yeah i always wonder whether the most punk rock thing happening in the summer of 1977 was brianino making music for airports whilst everything else was happening that was punk there he is like carving out a whole new landscape yeah yeah it's like anyway so there's not really a question there there was just a it's one of those things i've always always wondered how he'd gone from bowie and roxy music and then there he is making this gentle spacious kind of soundscapes in a time when the rest of the world's talking about the clash and the sex pistols and it's just brilliant oh you met brian only briefly yeah he's a view no i haven't actually yeah i feel like we've we've been in the same place maybe a few times but maybe we haven't properly yeah yeah we've We make sure this gets this record in his postbox or something, shouldn't we?

24:19I don't know, he might not be interested. Yeah, it's that thing of like, oh, okay, this is from my school of thought. It'll be an interesting experience. So one of the things that came up when I was kind of like, because I was like, I sort of know what synesthesia is, where people see colors when they hear sounds. And then I came across this term chromathesia, and you were lumped in an article with Billie Eilish and Aphex Twin and Pharrell Williams and a few other people that apparently have this response to music where they see or at least experience colour. I don't know whether it's seeing the colour or experiencing it.

24:58Is that something that you relate to? Because I don't like... It was one of those articles where it's like you're putting a list of people and it might not be that relevant to you. I think it was Vice or Noisy or someone. Yeah, it's something you more experience, I think. you could kind of see it. I don't think you, for me, you could kind of see it, but you're more experiencing it. Do you think there's a overlap between people who, like if you think about those Billie Eilish records and Aphex music, the like sensory element of the sound feels different to a lot of other records. And I say this as someone who's taste in music is all over the place.

25:41like Billie Eilish is one of the biggest artists in the world like that's normally my like RKL tune out like the rest of the world can have her like but I think her records are extraordinary in places and like you meet different people from different completely different genres of music like I met Sophie Azela at Reading Festival I don't know if you've heard her music is that she's some Sophie Sophia Azela she's a new artist she's only really single so far but she opened for Taylor Swift at Wembley Stadium. Oh, cool. But she's obsessed with Trent Reznor and she got into him through him producing the Halsey Records.

26:17And she's like only in her early 20s and like she's on a journey of just like production obsession. She's making her own music but she's got so many like gentle whispered bits before these big snarling guitars come in and she plays strings. And it's like, I wonder if there's some brains that process music differently and we feel it differently and the things that we've reached for are slightly different. Because I just thought it's interesting that you're in a list alongside Billie Eilish and Apex Twin. Yeah, it does. And listening to your records, I can understand why. Even though I don't know whether you probably couldn't put them in a DJ set next to each other.

26:57Yeah. It wasn't really a question. It was just more of an observation of, do you think your relationship to sound might be slightly different to some other people? I'm not sure. Maybe. maybe yeah i actually have no idea yeah well i i instantly felt your record when i put it on and it was really interesting because i said to you when you arrived like your press officer did a great job at putting things i like in a subject line of an email got me instantly clicking and listening and i was aware of your work through like working with loyal karner and various other people over the years and it it was such an experience to listen to it and and then i went back to the second time i was like why do i have such a big experience this the first time like because i'm like there's stuff happening and i could i was like but i wrote the first listen it was like whoa i'm just like instantly the second time i listened to it i was on a train and there was more background noise and stuff and it didn't feel the same um and it just i guess i was curious to and and like you obviously you live it and you experience it and you like you maybe can't even make sense of it maybe it's something in 10 years time you might make sense of what you've made and um but i just thought there was something about the feeling of the record that was really it was both comforting and at times like those moments of like am i faint there's my like fading out like woozy and like and the sort of feeling i get from listening to allow Tuge's record or the feeling you get when you've hit that euphoria point in like a really big track.

28:33And I was like, well, this, it's not doing either of those things. It's like, sometimes it's just gentle and like careening, careening along. Um, I haven't really got a question. I've just got a feeling. I guess my question is what records make you feel like that? Is there types of music that's, um, we should talk about the, the kind of sparks and the germs and the inspirations that fed into who you are and what you make i came back to this pat mufini record i hadn't listened to it in quite a long while there's a record called bright size life i'm not familiar with what kind of what does it sound like it's quite a beautiful record actually i'm familiar with pat mufini i'm reckoning yeah yeah guitarist was he in emeralds or one of those projects emeralds no no he's like um i was gonna say a jazzer but yeah it's quite a derogatory yeah um yeah he's a jet he he operates in the field of like jazz music i don't know if he'd call he'd call himself a jazz musician and i think jacko was on the record too jacko pastorius i can't remember he was on drums it's bugging me it'll come back to me sorry these podcasts aren't meant to be a memory test yeah yeah but that record um i've really enjoyed over the years probably some apex beach boys my family's music too so um my brother makes music as well and my wife makes music what are their artist names people can let them up alan tamara is my wife and cobbysay's my brother yeah younger brother yeah they've been huge inspirations for me too I'm trying to think of other records I guess there's a thing of like what do you reach for when like you're looking for a record that fits like because I thought it was surprising sort of like reading through your credits and reading through the stuff you've done and I was like I think it was that moment of pressing play that was it wasn't unexpected because I remembered the first record and you're on warp and like so you're in the family of flying lotus and apex and people and it's but i think there's something shifted in like you like talk about the beach boys there and it's like i can hear that i can sort of feel it and like i remember when that panda bear person pitch record came out like that's got the similar like a bit of beach boys somewhere in the texture and it's probably in like the film grain or something isn't it rather than in the the the bass sound or something yeah yeah so i guess i was curious to about where your obsession with music began like what was the because i i i would assume you're obsessed with music you know what i think yes i am i am obsessed with music not as much as when i was younger um still obsessed just not as obsessed i think i'm more obsessed with sound yeah like the the quality or lack of quality of sound more so than music i think i know what you mean by lack of quality of sound but i'd be curious what you mean by kind of the when something sounds bad like when it distorts or distorts or well maybe when i don't know the imperfections of the sound yeah i appreciate sound a lot more there's yeah i guess you when you said earlier about the kind of feedbacks and distorted bits of the record.

31:57I think they're also what really, like, and I'm assuming to create those things, it's probably a bit like fly catching or something. It's like, got one, quick, put it in. It needs to go there because they're not easy to create, are they sometimes? Yeah, and sometimes you create a sound and, yeah, you have to capture the sound. Yeah, you're like, I won't be able to do this again because it's like two different frequencies that are in kind of doing something against each other. I don't make music, but I'm sort of around enough people that are in that, like the kind of reading and listening to music all the time.

32:32So when you'd finished making the record, you talked about where you were at the start, feeling quite burnt out, you'd been on a break. Do you think going through that process of making it, did you feel slightly changed? Did you feel better? Did you feel more burnt out, less burnt out? I feel, well, post the record. Yeah. I feel energized. because I don't think I didn't have as much going on towards the end of that year as well which also helped I think making the record was I think it was a relief as well because I wasn't sure if I was going to make another record yeah did you think that was it you were now a producer and someone that's going to go hang out with Bobby Wymack and make a record and you know it's that thing where I was also at peace with that too if I hadn't made enough record solo record I would have been okay with that too.

33:21But it was just such a fun process and in a way helped me rediscover my love of making music. Again, kind of just making music for fun, as opposed to this thing being, I'm not saying producing records is problem solving. The aspects of it that are, or you're helping someone along. I enjoy that too. but with making my own music, it's just having fun. Yeah. Just kind of like discovering making music for the first time. As it led you to want to make more. Oh yeah, absolutely. So you've moved from that being at peace with maybe not making another record to being energized and yeah. You premiered the record, you mentioned it at the Barbecue, but you also did this event recently at the Tate, which I'm guessing is pretty recent.

34:19It was about a couple of weeks ago, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. How did that feel? Yeah, it was great, really great. So we did a screening in the cinema, the Star Cinema. And I also had some... And what was the screening of? The screening of was a visualizer for the record. So I met this guy, Ryan Votier, super talented visual artist. but he operates, his primary medium is like the computer. And I met him on the school run one morning. He had a cap that said Agony on it. And I was like, that's my guy. So we just got chatting and he knew of my music too. He didn't want to kind of say, I didn't want to weird you out.

35:06But yeah, I think I went and checked out his work. I saw his name and then I Googled. I didn't know he was an artist did he tell me he was an artist? I'm not sure but I googled him a lot of artists are kind of a bit like you know I make things yeah you know yeah you'd be really nonchalant about it and then you go like this is accidentally stumbled across with serendipity the person that you want to collaborate with yeah yeah and I was like this guy's work is awesome and his partner's work is awesome as well yeah Sarah Bloom a cereblum and then we um i think on another school run um we met so yeah we should do something and um and i told him i've just finished this record um and would you want to work on something for maybe one of the songs or you know and then he worked on a visualizer for one of the songs and then um i said i'm doing this event at the time you want to do something and yeah and that was that yeah he came up with something beautiful for it i think i saw it described as a sensory experience which is kind of what you want don't you it's somewhere like the tate on a kind of was it one of their late ones yeah it was on a friday friday night and yeah it was awesome and then he had the q a in there do you hear your record as being a friday night record or like because actually sometimes like this a cushioned end to the week is probably like not everyone needs to go arms aloft on a friday do they you know i think even more so now i think post-covid as well i know would you say there's been a bit more of a shift i think so yeah nightlife has shifted a bit chill out and i mean we've got a rise of fascism we've got the far right marching we've got like trump constantly tearing up like climate agreements yeah threatening countries it's It's a time for gentle souls to make things that ease the world a bit.

37:09Sure. And you've done some work with different kind of soundtracks with different projects. I'd be really curious sort of where either you see yourself going next with music or where you hope music goes next. I've got a few different questions that are like, but like music, like you said a minute ago, it's like music almost like for a purpose and it's like you made this music with without a clear purpose but it's the purpose was the purpose of creating it yeah and like yeah but the comfort or the the kind of kind of escape pod that you've created like it's it's something that's that's needed in the world it's like so there is a purpose to it even if it feels superfluous or whatever the right word is.

37:59Yeah. Because that's the thing, like music and art, it's like on the paper, like we've got a culture secretary that's not that bothered about it. That's like, they seem to take more meeting with AI companies than the warp or music companies that are like the backbone of the country. Not meaning to go on a complete tirade. I've done that on a few other recent episodes. I was like, I'll make this one a bit less political. But everything is political. Even rest is political. um so i guess my question was like where do you hope things are moving towards and from this project and some of the other things you've worked on you've soundtracked and things like where do you hope that you can take your work next i think well for my own music i'm all kind of just want to not overthink it i think i'm less i'm a little less well a lot less in my own head about my own music for it to just flow and just to just to keep having fun making music um and see where that see where it yeah ends up you know and then the kind of jobbing musician side of you producer as a producer like then there's probably the opposite like you're serving the songs and yeah serving the screen like is that is that like quite good to have that balance oh yeah yeah that's yeah i guess those kind of disciplines sort of um keep me sharp in a way.

39:21I'm having to talk to people, spend time with people. You know, and that I think that's a good thing. You know, that's helped me come out of my show a lot over the years. A lot more over the years. I'm happy to do a lot more of that stuff. You know, producing, composing. Yeah, it's quite a nice, I like being able to pivot every so often. Yeah.

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41:04i ask all my guests how they would spend 500 million pounds to improve music and that can be on any level um partly it's because that's how much money spotify gave to joe rogan um and i'm just like 500 million can make such a difference to music um i just be curious how if suddenly made your culture secretary or gave you 500 million quid what what do you think would make big difference to maybe when you when you're starting out or that you see with all your friends in the industry like what would you think would be a big benefit well how would i spend the five yeah down to doesn't have to be to the penny don't worry i think kind of creating more spaces is for people to create.

41:52There's so much land and property that's kind of falling into disrepair, especially throughout London, that could be used, that could be turned into something great for kids and for people to use and to be creative, whatever it is they're doing. you know so i'd spend a lot of money acquiring that acquiring that land and just building and would that be studios and just like music making spaces um creative workspaces and studios recording studios post-production facilities um accommodation yeah as well you know affordable accommodation yeah because hardly i'm gonna afford to live in london yeah um like I wonder what difference with mainstream music scene in London if you just subsidized the living of musicians that were also big music fans and like they'd all be out in more gigs they'd all like because like for me like I live in Buckinghamshire and it's like it's two hours to go to gig in Hackney and two hours home and I'm like my friends are like are you not going to come I'm like well it's going to finish at 10.30 which means I'm getting home I'm getting to the train at Marlebone nearer 12 I'm getting home at 1 o 'clock and then I've got to be up in the mornings to work on stuff and like that proximity of just like people being able to be places and do things like i increasingly speak to musicians that can't afford to stay in london or are in a bit of london where it also takes nearly two hours to get to a gig in east london or west london whichever side they're on and yeah i think there's a lot to be said for place and proximity but i think the other thing when you were talking earlier about making music that kind of late night time like having time as well like it's something that we don't and the people that do have time are either because they've made money or they've come from money and like yeah how do we shift that balance because that's big like that's one of the my biggest fears that the most interesting music is not made by people that either are making money to make money or by people that have come from money that haven't experienced things and we should be terrified as a nation because most of our most famous artists have not come from, they've not come from that 10 generations of wealth.

44:16Yeah, I agree. That was an easy answer to a question when you just agree, isn't it? I should do more podcasts where I disagree with people. The world is full of people that are disagreeing, that disconnects between people. What would be your hope that Sojourner Sound just turned 25? Yeah. um it's a huge huge and what would you hope that music would be like in 2050 i'd love i don't 2050 so where are we now 2026 yeah and technology's moving so fast as well i'd love i know maybe someone has said this to you before i'd love to be able to smell sound love to to smell it smell actual sound that'd be really cool what do you think a lot of things smell like i don't know what do you think a beach boy's record smells like that's the thing yeah does it smell like cocoa butter and like zingy yeah it really it depends on the record i guess um like smiley smile kind of gives me a sense i think that has more kind of like pine yeah a piney kind of maybe a bit of damp in there as well going back to the quality of the sound because they're essentially demos but i think that's my favorite beach boys record and then pet sounds is a lot more kind of sweet kind of more Haribo-y or maybe maybe more Worthless original could have done a whole podcast with this this would be much more fun Worthless original yeah that's that's such a like butterscotchy but it's like a sugary but yeah that makes so much sense yeah whereas my bloody valentine would be more like tangfastics or something that'd be really cool yeah because I'm now thinking like why do we not like we match wines with meals.

46:05Like what should we start? Should we start a whole subplot of like matching foods with records? There's probably a, cause even if we started now, even if it wasn't like, this is what it sounds like, it doesn't create the sound. It's like when you're listening to this, you've definitely stumbled across something, which is why I like these questions because they're a bit ridiculous. But it's also like, cause some people have feared like, oh, AI is going to replace things. It's just going to be robot making music for robots like there's a couple of people that i a few times i've tailored the question a bit more to the topic we talked about yeah so like when someone's dealing with topics like me too and harassment they're like what do they imagine that's going to be like 25 years from now and some of the it might not have changed very much type of answers and it's like you start to look at where we are culturally as well and like i really like the idea that the kind of western supremacy and music will shift because here's so many interesting records coming out of places that oh yeah i have no like field of reference for the kind of life experiences of people making those records and like i think that's but like also things like i wouldn't have been discovering there's a label in beirut called ruptured and like almost everything on the label is really special They're like, feels like that, like 4AD in the 80s, kind of like shoegazy records.

47:31And the thing that's different about them is the time signatures. And because the more like Western time signatures, they're in there in some of the release and some of the tracks, but there's a few things I listened to. And I'm like, why does this like feel like, not alien to me, but not like everything else I'm used to, even though sonically it's coming from like a similar place. And I think, I think I'm really hopeful that that's where some of the things will shift. Absolutely. I think, yeah, the world is so much smaller in that sense. And everyone should be able to put music out there, make it and release it.