Packaging Like the Pros: The Hidden Process Behind Your Favorite CPG Brands

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1:18What is going on DTC pod today? We are super excited to be speaking with Danielle Kidney, who is the founder of the Creative Pack. So I'm really excited to have Danielle on for this episode because in the world of DTC or CPG or whenever you're trying to bring a product to life, one of the most important things, one of the first things that the customer notices is the packaging, right? And a lot of times, you know, it's harder than it looks to nail beautiful packaging. I think everyone's used to seeing these beautiful brands that are scaling fast with amazing packaging. But a lot of times you don't really know what goes on behind the scenes to produce this level of packaging, what needs to happen from both a design point of view, a branding point of view, as well as like a logistics and supply chain point of view to pull all of this stuff off.

2:12So I'm really excited to have Danielle on today. And that's what we're going to be chatting about. We're going to break down how you build packaging that stands out and that can really help your brand, especially as you not only start up, but as you scale. So Danielle, I'll let you kick us off. Why don't you tell me a little bit about, you know, your personal background and what led you into starting the creative pack?

2:36Danielle Kidney:Sure. I'm so excited to be here. Yes, so I founded the Creative Pack 11 years ago. The name kind of says it all, but it's a play on words. So we create packaging, but we're also a tight knit group of creative people. And we have a diverse set of skills, interests and backgrounds. um my background I started my career in a London agency who focused on food and beverage packaging and one of their biggest clients was Tesco which is the third largest retailer in the world and we managed a high volume account for them in private label or own brand and that spread across every category in store so everything from a non-food you know skincare beauty product all the way through to bakery buns and condiments and tea and coffee so that experience is actually what brought me to Los Angeles almost 18 years ago to help Tesco launch Fresh and Easy which was their US small format grocery store.

3:52Danielle Kidney:So we started in that world and kind of have built from there. I love what we do. I'm constantly looking at packaging everywhere I go. Nobody wants to go to the grocery store with me because it takes hours and I'm going down every aisle and taking pictures and emailing clients and all kinds of things. So I'm a little bit obsessed, but it's a good thing because I love what we do and how we can help people launch their products. Yeah. And I love that. Going to the grocery store and just like nerding out on packaging. That's something that I do. It's one of the best ways to, you know, see things.

4:35It's I feel like the packaging landscape, it's always evolving. There's always brands that are putting out new innovative ideas and you can apply them cross category. And there's so many ways to innovate. And it's really cool because you're innovating in the physical world too. It's not just digital. It's like something that really comes to life and stands out. So, you know, one of the reasons I was excited to do this is you not only have experience at Tesco working with retail at Massive Scale, but you've also created and done a lot of the branding and the design for a lot of very popular brands that, you know, people know in their household, even just scanning through your site, brands like, you know, Nom Nom or Levin Cookies, you know, Mother's Market, stuff like this.

5:18These are like brands that, you know, I think are super recognizable. So, you know, I'd love to learn a little bit more about, you know, talk to me about your process. Like what is the design process look like when you start working with a client, not only on your side, but what is like the brand have to have and what stage should they should they be at to bring their first package to life?

5:42Danielle Kidney:Yeah, that's a great question. The thing with packaging, like you said, is it's very tangible. But with that comes some timelines because you're actually printing and producing something. So I always say you should engage with a designer and agency as early as possible. So I'll take calls with entrepreneurs that just have a business idea or a product idea and haven't really gotten much further than that because it takes time and there's a process. So our process at the very beginning is to just really establish the needs of the client. Ideally, they bring to me like a one page brief which can be as simple as a background about the company um what their objective is with the project um and also some of the drivers to why they're developing what they are developing sometimes people just tell me about the product but i like to know you know did it come about because you're solving a problem is it developing a product because you couldn't find that product on the market.

6:57Danielle Kidney:The reason the story is so important is because it can feed into the creative. So you'll see a lot of brands right now that are founder-led. Extracting that story from the founder really builds some authenticity with the brand and relatability. So people can say, oh, that could have been me. I could have done that. Someone solved this problem for me. so we always want to get to know the client so this initial conversation I'll be asking lots and lots of questions and also I want to get to know them how do they think what are their strengths and weaknesses um if they come to us with just like a product idea but they have never gone through a branding project before that's okay we take people step by step um so from that one pager we would create a design brief and a scope of work and the scope of work would essentially outline the steps to get from A to B.

8:01Danielle Kidney:So let's say it's someone with nothing all the way through to launching, we would actually break that down and say, okay, we're going to need to come up with some design concepts. We're going to create mood boards. We're going to develop those designs to make sure they're fit for purpose. And then we're going to roll out the final packaging, whatever that is, how many SKUs, how many formats, and all of that kind of goes into our scope of work. And it's really important that the process is collaborative. We don't want to race away and do what we think is right. We always kind of touch base back with the client.

8:41Danielle Kidney:So we have a lot of touch points during the project so that they're on board and they're kind of coming on the journey with us and hopefully we can surprise and delight them throughout the design process with ideas that kind of push them to think differently or really nail whatever creative ideas they've brought to us so part of that is getting to know the client and part of it is making sure that their design is fit for purpose so understanding who the consumer is who are we talking to what are their habits how are they going to shop is this a shopify website is it an app on your phone is it an e-com retailer where you're up against lots of other products in a stream of tiny little pods on the phone are you going to be half an inch high your image is it going to tell the story so there's a lot a lot that goes into it but we're here to help we don't just bamboozle clients we kind of give them a breakdown of each step before we start so one of the questions that um you know immediately comes to mind like when it comes to brand there's kind of this balance uh you know and the best brands do a best job of maybe not even balancing it but just getting it perfect but you know there's a balance between brand that stands out but like also a brand that communicates simply and can sell.

10:08Right. So how do you, you know, as you approach design, what is the balance between, you know, getting that story across in terms of like the information and the things that, you know, universally need to be communicated, whether it's a nutritional label or, you know, specs that like need to just go in there versus being innovative and making something like stand out? How do you balance? Because a lot of times, you know, obviously people want products that look pretty, but at the same time, people want products that sell. So how do you balance and how do you design for, you know, not only accommodating brand, but accommodating sales and conversion and how do they go together?

10:50Danielle Kidney:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, one thing that's kind of a trick of the trade, and it's something we do because we're also working with different clients in different industries in different categories is the first first thing we do is a competitor review now there may not be a direct competitor if you're creating something super unique but there's always something around that space so is it that you're packaging in a liquid form and you need a pump on the top of the bottle is it that you need outer packaging like primary packaging and secondary packaging because a product like over-the-counter medicine has a drug fax panel that's massive so you're just simply not going to fit it all on the bottle or are you up against a gigantic goliath and let's let's think about it they might have a giant budget for consumer research so the reason to look at the competitors is to look at form and function, but it's also to look at claims and hierarchy.

11:59Danielle Kidney:And I do think there is a balance when you're shopping online or on the phone, there's usually images with supportive text. So you can maybe do a more minimal design because you can explain it really well in the description or you can annotate the images. But when you think about, you know, when the consumer takes it home, You want to make sure that they, you know, still understand what it is and that no one picks it up by mistake or even that you're using a product that I'm watching you use. And I'm like, wow, what is that? Where did it come from? How can I buy that? So we try and break it down in a very simplistic form where after the competitor review, we go through the review with the client and we ask them which ones stand out to you.

12:48Danielle Kidney:which ones do you like which ones are successful which ones aren't that's again to get to know them but after that we take a framework and we create a hierarchy on blank packaging so we're not designing colors or images or anything distracting we're literally looking at the proportion between the logo and the title the claims and the call outs all the mandatory information that has to go on that maybe a client doesn't know because they've come from another industry like in food the net weight the servings per container we do that in just a grayscale form so we're not distracted by any of the design yet and we want to make sure we're aligned with the client that they want a really large logo a really large title and again that stems from reviewing the competitive set um and when we design against a hierarchy that's already been determined that really helps with the next step in the process because then when we do a mood board and we're bringing visual cues and color palette and typography and a mood and inspiration into the board we compare that structural technical piece with that uh outstanding creative design essence that we're going to design against and those two pieces help inform the concepts so when we do concepts that they've not come out of thin air they've been informed by the research and informed by the hierarchy and we may design under two hierarchies we might have one where something's bigger on one design versus the other and then in the real world in the in the concept stage you can see it and we try and make sure that stage is rendered on the exact form of packaging at the same scale you're going to produce so we know if it's a small bottle versus a large bottle or a big box or a small box we we try and take all that guesswork out of that final tangible piece by you know drip feeding it through the process earlier on so that's kind of the magic when the concepts come to life they're actually a little bit more considered than just a good looking design without context yeah and i think this part is so so so important and that is designing for function uh you know first right like and then uh once you've got that solved then you can figure out what the exact like form is going to be and the colors and like the splashy things that all the users remember.

15:35But like, I just love that from even, you know, for anyone who's like launching their brand, when you're thinking about packaging design, start with the things that are non-negotiable about your design. What are the things that like physically need to be in there, need to happen? Start in grayscale. It's almost like when you're designing, you know, in software systems, you're using, you know, you design the UX first, and you're doing kind of like mockups where you might just have like, you know, boxes instead of like text or like dummy text where you're designing for hierarchy. And then you can put in all the splash and color.

16:10And I think a lot of maybe, you know, first time sort of founders or people who are exploring designs for they might, their eye might gravitate towards something eye catching, But then you start to realize you're like, oh, wait a minute, that's catchy. But oh, crap. Now I need to go re-put in all of these different essential parts. So I think just kind of stripping down the way you think and what the design thinking is and building and layering on top of there. I think that's just like a universally great approach to approaching especially products in the physical product world. Right. Because like it's not as easy.

16:46And why this is even more important in software. Like, you know, if something's messed up, you go and you write a line of code and push a new release and you're done. But, you know, and maybe that's kind of like the next topic we can talk about is in these sort of packaging designs. Like, what are the, you know, what are the order quantities? What does your process look like once you've kind of like got a design to not only like test it? Right. So like, what does that kind of testing process look like? And then what does the scale look like? Obviously, if you're working with a product launch in a Tesco, that's going to be different from a new brand who's coming to work with you and maybe wants to do somewhere start with 1 ,000, 10 ,000, 50 ,000 units.

17:29But yeah, why don't you just talk to me a little bit about once you guys have a solid design foundation in place from the fundamentals, you've kind of layered in the colors, you've got a brand that everyone sort of agrees on. Now it comes time to see how that product manifests itself in the real world, right? We're dealing with materials. We're dealing with the manufacturer. How does the color render onto the packaging? How does the packaging feel? So maybe we could start a little bit with the actual material design component and how that comes together. And then we can tackle, you know, other parts of the design process.

18:03Danielle Kidney:Yeah, so kind of like the process being collaborative, but also being different, one project to another might have different deliverables. In this case, we do ask a lot of questions about manufacturing. So is this a product that someone's making at home in a kitchen or in a, you know, a commercial kitchen? Is this a co-manufacturer? Where is it being manufactured? With the past, you know, five years with freight costs and supply chain, all of these micro decisions can actually affect the final product cost and margin and profit. So we ask those questions because depending on where it's being manufactured, if it's being manufactured on a production line that exists, someone else is probably going to already solve for the bottle shape, the label size, maybe the box that it gets put in.

19:05Danielle Kidney:And depending on their machinery, that could be, you know, by hand or by machine. So often clients will come to us, we get provided a die line, which is a lay flat version of the packaging for us to put the design onto. So we do ask those questions a little earlier before the concept, because we don't want to design even as detailed as a clear label if the manufacturer can only do a paper label or a opaque label so we try and do that so that the design that you you're approving is as close to what's achievable as possible but as you touched on there's also cost so depending on how many units you're printing that will also determine the print process so whether you're doing a digital run or whether you're doing a full flexo or litho commercial printing run the cost might be higher for the digital but you can adapt and change and do a minimum order quantity versus a full production run in a commercial environment with a commercial printer you might be printing print you might have print plate costs and any changes you know are going to be kind of costly later down the line so there is a system in place that we use where the artwork gets reviewed by all the parties involved so that we don't put something on a die line upside down or back to front we understand a lot of the technical elements of die lines and that's why we specialize in packaging but the printer and the manufacturer they know their machines they know what works they know what's been successful they know if a label is going to wrinkle or not wrinkle um so we involve them in artwork when we release the artwork we make sure everyone sees it and then they get a chance to say it's too many colors it's going to be too expensive you need to switch it to this dye line i gave you the wrong dye line accidentally all these kind of little um things can happen along the way um and then we make changes to the design refining that artwork to make sure it's fit for purpose so in in that you know primary packaging when you're packaging the thing that you're actually selling versus the shipper box that you might produce to get it to someone's doorstep um different print process processes different printers different technical things in the files that need to be on there print finishes capabilities um you might find for a shipper box you're just going to print one color on the outside because that's the most economical design and then with that one color you have the opportunity to knock out to the craft of the box or white if the box is white so you can still be really creative but you might be limited on number of colors um and then there's the unboxing experience which in the last you know again few years you've seen a lot of unboxing videos surprise and delight easter eggs happening there's something to be said for you've done all this work to get the product you know refined but how does the consumer actually experience it and you talked about the digital space where you're designing that experience in the physical world you're also designing that experience is there a special finish a soft touch on the label that creates a tactile feel is there something where it needs a texture so it's non-slip out of your hands like there's lots and lots of things you can just do simple gloss versus matte packaging and you can do a combo where you do some spot gloss some matte finishes again the cost is part of this conversation because we don't want to go and design you know a Louis Vuitton priced product if it's supposed to be a value tier so this should be discovered along the way and we shouldn't be like taking a four color or a six color design down to one color at the last minute because they guarantee that's not going to be the brightest and most beautiful result it's better if you design for one color and you're limited at the beginning so there's lots of sort of little hints and and tricks which is why partnering with the right people who know all the technical details is really important and you can um You know, you can have an agency like ours manage the color with the printer.

24:02Danielle Kidney:We can attend the press check. We can go to first production. There are ways to make sure that there's consistency throughout the process and that the results you get are as high quality as the product you're putting inside. So it's just about, you know, staying close to it at all touch points and making sure that everyone's expectations are met and that people understand. And we're always here to help break down some of the technical language that printers use to help make it a little bit easier to digest. Yeah, I think, I mean, just printing and color alone is like it's it's its own beast, right?

24:44Like you may have a green and the way that green, even like even when you're working with Pantone colors and stuff, the way that digital green shows up as a Pantone color, shows up as a Pantone color on a particular type of material. These are all different things. So, you know, having a design digitally, that's, you know, very much only half the battle. And, you know, there's a whole nother side that goes into, OK, how do we get this design that looks amazing and digital? And how do we make sure that it comes to life? So when it hits a retail shelf or something, it it's what we envisioned when we were going through and designing that physical product.

25:24Right. Yeah.

25:25Danielle Kidney:And even mock-ups. we're at a stage in a project right now where we're doing physical mock-ups so we can see it at in the 3d form and you know we receive a set of mock-ups the client receives a set and then we review it together to make sure everything from the computer screen translated onto the actual material. Even that step alone, you might do for a trade show, or you might do for an investor meeting, or even a pitch, you might want the 3D object before you finalize it in your hands. And that can be, you know, a couple of hundred dollars, but it's well worth the effort before you print thousands or hundreds of thousands.

26:14Danielle Kidney:So we build that step in, depending on the client's needs, to make sure that we're all on the same page and that there's consistency. Yeah, I mean, even something like you've got some bottles of wine, it looks like, in your background, even something as simple as a label and how it renders digitally is flat. And then when you put that label on a bottle with a curve, you know, maybe you don't see the whole label if the design is a certain way and the packaging is a cylinder, right? So I think there's so many things and, you know, once you go to production, like these are, you know, real, real elements.

26:53And I think one thing that I just want to highlight is just what for a brand that's starting up, what the true cost is of like messing this stuff up, because it's something that I've been through that other founders have been through. But like, you know, for example, even if you build a piece of packaging and say you send a palette of package and this is something that even just happened to the brand that I was running, build it, build a build a packaging, send it to Amazon. Well, now you're paying not only to create your product, you're paying for your product. And imagine something goes wrong.

27:23If you have to then get rid of that product, you have to pay Amazon to dispose of your palette. Right. Like and these are, you know, real costs, not just in terms of like what the materials cost to design and implement. but in cost of what it costs to ship large volumes and what it costs to, you know, in a horrible or a worst case scenario, what it costs to dispose of or, you know, liquidate merchandise. So, yeah, these are it's better to get it right than to to to get it wrong. That is for certain.

27:55Danielle Kidney:And the other thing is it's better to do an extra round on the digital file than it is to make a print mistake. So that's why part of our process is also including more than just the founder or the brand owner in the reviews. We all know some of us are good at certain things and not good at others. There might be a brand owner that's great at ensuring the color and the imagery is exactly on point. but they might have a technical person look and proofread and copy and check everything and check the UPC is correct at the last stage back against the original UPC supplied sometimes in file versioning mistakes can happen spelling mistakes simple stuff we as a point in our process we have a second or a third designer review files with fresh eyes so someone that hasn't been working on the project will check it before release and make sure that it's um all those checkpoints are done and also that's why it's good to have the manufacturer the qc maybe even have a regulatory review from uh professional services which we also can arrange and make sure that like Like every single piece of it is checked digitally before you print and produce.

29:22Danielle Kidney:Because as you said, it can be a very expensive mistake further down the line. I'd love to talk about that. Let's talk about what a review process looks like, a regulatory review. I know when you go into retail, it's a little bit different than when you're online. A couple of things that you mentioned, QPC, right? What does the barcode look like? Very easy to get the wrong barcode on your bottle, right? That's a problem and that's something that you don't want to make a print mistake around on. But there's also requirements as they pertain to, for example, the nutritional facts, right? If you're in CPG or health and wellness or supplements and you're selling a food product, you know, certain sizes that the fonts need to be certain information that needs to be contained.

30:11So how do you guys I know you just mentioned having that review process, but are there any other call outs that you could make in terms of, you know, things or things that maybe not everyone's thinking about that they need to get right before they go to print?

30:26Danielle Kidney:Yeah, I mean, it's a moving target because the FDA and USDA, for example, they recategorize and change things. And whether you know it or have noticed it, often you'll see from package to package, you might see differences in serving size, portions, number of servings per container. that measurement is a factor depending on what category you're in on a product and the same between fluid ounces and net weight liquids are measured differently to solids there's even another reason why it's good to do a competitor review you might catch something like serving suggestion needs to be right near the product imagery whether that's an illustration or a photo because you might be showing like a lemon or a garnish of parsley that doesn't actually appear in your recipe.

31:33Danielle Kidney:And that sort of brings me to some of the perils of AI right now, because a lot of people have been asking me about that. I mean, our business, because it's food and beverage and beauty and products like that. Yes, you can generate something. Where did it come from? Is that tagline belonging to a big brand? So knowing the source of where these things came from, from a trademark infringement and, you know, ownability standpoint is concerning to me. And also making sure that it meets the requirements legally and technically. So different size packages have different requirements for point size of both the net weight and the nutrition facts panel.

32:24Danielle Kidney:Organic products have different requirements for calling out the organic certifier. Same with kosher. there's a lot of certifying bodies that also have technical requirements and you have to adhere to their requirements as a policy or business as well as your own so it might be nice to like change the color of a logo that belongs to someone else but there's a reason why you're not allowed to so really just working with partners that know these rules um we double check the information we're given from a client because we don't know necessarily if it was from a reliable source right off the bat.

33:07Danielle Kidney:We measure things. We point out when things need to be bigger or smaller. And I do recommend an outside review, whether that's an IP attorney, making sure your claims can be said. D2C is a great example where you might claim something on your website, But as long as you don't print that claim right on your package, you know, there are things you can and cannot say. And claims are made in a very specific way, like good source of protein or X number of grams of protein per serving if it's multi-servings. intentionally or mistakenly misleading you know customers it's a very expensive mistake to get a cease and desist letter to get sued by a brand because you've copied something all of not all of these things can be prevented but by going through a thorough process not cutting corners not copying other people's packaging um you can hopefully set yourself up for success and also make sure that you're future-proof you're not putting something on the package that's a trend or a fad or a design that's just a hot design right now we try and make sure that the brands stand the test of time and that they can last for a couple of years because it takes a long time print produce distribute it might be a year-long process so your product by the time it goes live might have been designed a year earlier so it's okay to be influenced by trends and excited by new things but just make sure they're gonna last and you're not putting 8 ,000 claims that are irrelevant in a year.

35:04Danielle Kidney:So we try and make sure those little things are part of our process with our clients too. Danielle, the other question that I was going to ask, like, you know, you've been talking a little bit about lead times and how long it actually goes into creating, you know, an amazing packaging sort of run. Could you kind of walk us through timelines and what things normally look like. We can talk about it, obviously, from an emerging brand's point of view, but also a scale-up. Obviously, I'm sure you have projects that run longer than others, but ballpark for someone who's looking to get a brand off the ground.

35:40Let's just say they've got a product, they've got the brand, they've got the social media coming together, and they want to bring their product to life as fast as possible. What do things look like in the fastest case scenario, whether it's working with you or working themselves? Like how fast can you truly bring a solid product to market? And then what do things look like, you know, for more scale ups that are looking at potentially doing like a proper rebrand across maybe multiple SKUs and rolling out things at a larger scale? What do those two worlds look like?

36:16Danielle Kidney:I mean, for a launch date, to be realistic, I usually work backwards. So let's say, for example, you wanted to launch something in April of next year. So you had a springtime launch, you know, coordinates with the calendar event, Cinco de Maia, something is happening next year. So if you're packaging, let's take the longest lead time, which would probably be a Tetra pack or a flexible film, like a roll stock or a film. You could be looking at a 12 to 14 week lead time on just printing the material. So if you take that off your Synchro de Maia launch and you work backwards, you're probably at, you know, January to release print ready packaging.

37:10Danielle Kidney:I would also add a buffer. So I would take a couple of weeks earlier than that to make sure that you have time for all those reviews. you also have to think about the printed package is just material it also needs to be formed and product put inside and shipped to wherever you're shipping whether that's a 3pl or you're housing it in a warehouse and shipping from there so shelf life is another thing if your product has a short shelf life you don't want tons of inventory coding out in the warehouse so let's say you're doing a long lead time package like that and then you're January for release of print files so let's say it's December you want to leave a couple of weeks for those files to be reviewed people might take vacations your printer might be you know closed for the holidays so let's say two to four weeks for the reviews so now you're at November then before that you probably had to do some photography some imagery gather your print specs your product specs so that might be four weeks earlier so now we're in October and then you want to give your design team or whoever you're you know you want to give them some time to go through that process of competitor review audit mood boards design and developments I would say for design ideally you have you know 12 weeks maybe two weeks for the onboarding and the research four weeks for concept two for developments and production so basically September we're already late for next April and that's like dream crushing to some people so shorten the package now say you're going to launch a box a carton a box of cereal or cookies, a carton, maybe it's a four or six week lead time.