Charlamagne Tha God Breaks Silence on $200M iHeart Deal - Truth About Podcasting, Power & Ownership

22:45I watch The Breakfast Club on YouTube all the time. But this brings to this, let's have this YouTube conversation because we had a conversation a few weeks ago. YouTube is entering the podcast space. They acquired some podcasts from iHeart. Netflix or YouTube? Netflix, my bad. Netflix is entering the podcast space. They acquired some podcasts from iHeart. So, okay. Some people think that this is done from a standpoint of the creators don't really have a say in what their show. is they don't have the control over their IP. But you shed some light on it as far as that it's a licensing deal. So you guys are now on Netflix.

23:28So can you give us some insight on how that actually is working? Yeah, because I watched the episode with Ian and Troy, you were bringing up the conversation you've had with iHeart. And y 'all been in the iHeart system before. Five years ago, they wasn't asking for no video. We here now. Yeah, exactly. I'm saying five years ago, they weren't asking for video. True. So that means that that's a new thing. So most of the podcasts that they had with them, they didn't have any type of video rights. But if you're an iHeart podcast with the audio and now iHeart, who didn't have a video component before, right, now has a video partnership with somebody like Netflix that's more incentive to sign with an iHeart.

24:18But y 'all have the rights to your video already, so now you got to do a deal with an iHeart and then go do a deal with a Netflix. Like, there's no package deal. Hey, we're just going to give you these 15 podcasts, Netflix. That didn't happen. No. And listen, I can't speak for everybody, but come on, man. think about somebody like Chelsea Handler who's had stand-up specials you know with Netflix a late night talk show with Netflix like you don't think she knows how to negotiate her own situation with an iHeart and a Netflix like it's just some common sense needs to happen here you know what I'm saying and I get it everybody looks at these oh the corporations they got a monopoly over everything like no I think everybody gets treated very fair, and I think that everybody's capable of doing their own negotiating.

25:15So licensing, not ownership. It's licensing. Netflix doesn't own all these shows. I don't know what the length of a lot of these people's situations are, but let's just say it's a year licensing deal or a two-year licensing deal. If it works out, great. Netflix may want to do it again. You may decide, you know what, I would rather go back and do what I was doing on YouTube. It's just straight licensing. That's the beauty of this business that we're in when it comes to podcasting. It really, truly is for the entrepreneur because you can be making money off your audio over here. You can be making money off your video over here.

25:50You can be making money with your merch over here. You can be making money with your live events over here. What do y 'all think people doing 360 deals and everybody got their hands on it? I was like, you're saying it. Aren't they? No. Aren't they? We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. Now listen, once again, I don't know what type of deals people are signing, But those are not the type of deals that we sign. So to your knowledge, you don't know of any podcaster that signed a 360 deal? No. I don't even think they have the podcast 360 yet. We've heard some stories. You've heard of podcast 360?

26:18We have. We have. From who? We'll talk about it after. Yeah. I'm like, who's the podcast 360? We have. Sign away your rights before you even have anything. But as you're speaking, I'm thinking to myself, it's interesting because technically, the breakfast club belongs to iHeart. You guys don't own that. So like the part of the negotiation is between iHeart and Netflix on that standpoint. Do they come back to the host and say, hey guys, we're thinking about doing this, right? Like does that incentivize now when you're negotiating, hey, if we're going here, you know we got to renegotiate these things.

26:54And does it now make it more advantageous to say, hey, you know we got this other IP that I have that could potentially be on that platform? Absolutely. And everybody, it's funny when people say things like they own Breakfast Club. It's how can you own host? Like, that's the difference, right? Like, we are, it's not like, I don't want to say it like this, but it's not like an NBA team where it's a franchise, right? Like, a franchise is valuable regardless of who's playing in the jersey, right? It's the franchise. Like, Breakfast Club is valuable because of the host. So you got to go do your deals with the individual hosts.

27:37Like you just have to. And I mean, you know, for me, this was a great year for me all around because it was my re-up year. So each individual host has their own separate contract. And that's. I would hope so. I can't. By the way, I can't speak for each individual host. I can only speak for me. I can speak for me. You just know that the guy on the cover to Forbes did. That's it. I can only speak for me in that situation. And this was a, you know, this was a great year for me because it's not like, that's the other thing. You hear these stories about like the cast of friends, right? They all go in and negotiate together as one unit.

28:11That's just never been the way it's been set up at Breakfast Club because Envy was already there when me and Anjali, you know, Yee got there and everybody's, you know, deal is up at different times because it's different terms. Like, you know, you might have two with an option. You might have a five. You might have a, you know, more than a five. You just never know. So it's just like my stuff never, you know, landed. Do we discuss that as a unit? Right? Like I would imagine if me and Shada go into a negotiation as partners, number one, I'm like, yo, hey, this is what they're offering. Are we having that conversation?

28:41That's one of the things we say that's missing, right? Like in this space is that we don't know what somebody's getting, and that works for us. A lot of times it works against us, right? Because then we can get low-balled in that situation. Do you guys sit down as a team and say like, hey, here's what we're thinking. Here's maybe some tips for you when you go into yours? No. Get yours. I got mine no no I just don't I don't mean it like like y 'all EYL EYL no EYL EYL is a different you heard no EYL is a different machine everybody you know brings a different you know thing to the situation like you know I can't I can't I don't even know I don't even know how that would work for us like like it's different like y 'all earn your leisure everybody knows y 'all as a unit a unit.

29:29Like, you know, ours is different. It's a lot more Wu-Tang, right? Like, it's like all of these different individuals that, by the way, stand on their own in incredible ways. You see what Envy does as an entity. You see what Jess Hilarious does as an entity. Lauren LaRosa, she's becoming her own entity. Even prior, Angela Yee was her own entity. I don't even know how you would weigh that. Like, I don't even know how that would work. I'm not saying that it couldn't, but... It's like a sports team. Like, LeBron's not going to get the same as... That's what I was going to say. There's going to be other players.

30:00Luka and then Luka's not going to get the same as Anthony. There's going to be Austin Reeves of the situation. Austin Reeves. Austin Reeves about to get paid, though. He ain't paid yet, though. But he's showing up. He about to get a bag. And he may not get it with the Lakers, but he going to get it somewhere. He's played his way. That's it. Did the Dame Dash conversation have any, did it trigger anything inside of you to be like, I really need to look at this entrepreneurship thing? No. That's another narrative. People were saying, like, a lot of y 'all leveled up, and they saying it was around that time when Dane had that delivery.

30:33I would say that people weren't already, they weren't paying attention. If people were already paying attention, they would have saw the entrepreneurship from everybody in that room. At the time, it was myself, Anjali, and DJ Envy. Like, that's what I grew up with. Like, my dad, you know, owned a fish market in the Monks Corner, South Carolina, called Max Seafood. Like, him and my uncle used to own a fish market. I used to be in the fish market as a kid, like, you know, watching them run their fish market on Main Street and Monk's Corner. Like my dad had his own construction company. Right. Like so he would always do, you know, you know, independent contracting.

31:09Like my dad had a like a what we call a juke joint. Right. Like the little sugar shack in the hood where you can go buy your candy and, you know, your alcohol and everything else. You play pool. Like my dad always was on his entrepreneurial grind. That was always on your, on your, you always was an entrepreneur, even though you was, because that was the narrative of like y 'all was workers. I don't have a problem, by the way, I don't have a problem being a worker either. Like, I think that we, you know, put these labels on things that, and call them negative when they shouldn't be. I think that you should know how to be a soldier in certain situations, and you should know how to be a general in certain situations, right?

31:46I don't have a problem working with a multi-billion dollar company and getting paid handsomely to work there while simultaneously building things on my own. I've been doing Breakfast Club for 15 years. I've been doing Brewing Idiots for 13. But you also did it in a way. There's other people in radio, even in the city, that worked at a place for a long time and they never did anything other than work at the place for a long time. Shame on them. Shame on them. They didn't see nothing that I didn't see. But that's important. Talk about that, though, because you had the vision to say, OK, I'm going to work here, but I'm going to collaborate.

32:30I'm going to use the infrastructure that's already here in place. So when I'm coming, I'm not just going to just be a freelance. just wing it. That's important for people in any corporate environment to kind of look at intrapreneur, like being an entrepreneur inside of a system that's already successful. Yeah, I don't understand why we get in these machines and then rage against them and rebel against them. You should be in these machines to learn from them. You should be in these machines to utilize the infrastructure and the resources that they have. Like, I don't understand, you know, when you are, and I'm not trying to throw him under the bus, but when you're a Kanye West and you get into business.

33:08That's crazy. As you said that, I was thinking what Ye was saying about the fashion world. I don't understand that. You finally got the opportunity to do everything that it is that you want to do. Just continue to grow from that. Like I always look at the Oprah model, right? Like you hear these stories about Oprah, you know, when she first started her talk show, you know, I guess from the stories I read, they didn't necessarily believe in her all the way. So instead of taking a whole bunch of money up front, and she took a little bit of equity. And then it was successful. And then she continued to be successful.

33:39So every time she was up for renegotiations, she would just renegotiate for more equity, more equity, more equity. And then eventually she becomes this entity Oprah and she starts Harpo Productions and then she launches Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz and I think it was Rachel Ray. And you know, like that is what, that's how I look at things. I have no problem being a part of a system, being a part of a machine, helping that machine make money and do what it's supposed to do. But also, I'm learning and using their infrastructure and using their resources and growing and building my own thing too. This is key because a lot of people see that.

34:15And I think they look at us like that. They see us around a lot of successful people. They see us with some corporate entities and they wonder, how do you navigate in these environments? Like, as you've been in this space, obviously working with iHeart, we'll talk about Simon & Schuster because that's important as well. being in these hugely successful conglomerates, how would you navigate it? Is there like a team of people that you make sure that you have to see? Like you mentioned the sales team. I know that's important. Like who else do you make sure that you have direct contact with when you get inside these machines?

34:44Oh, well, first of all, I got, I have my own team for every situation. Like, you know, my business partner is my girl, Karen. She don't even like to be mentioned. You know what I mean? But she's my business partner. But then we have Black Effect. Dolly's the president of Black Effect. When I'm at, you know, Simon & Schuster Black Privilege Publishing, yes, they got their own people, right? Like people like Shida, that work over there and Libby and Melissa, like those are like and Nick was like our first editor. So they're already in the building. Like that situation is a little bit different because all I'm doing is writing my own books and telling them, hey, man, read this manuscript.

35:23This is somebody that y 'all should, you know, do a book on. Like, I really believe in this project. And, you know, sometimes they agree with me. Sometimes they don't. So that situation is a little bit different. But even in that, it's just like me and my team are connected with them and their team. And the book industry is different because like one thing I've learned about the book industry, you're not changing that system. like the book industry is what it is so you really do need to have your own team when you're launching a book if you sign a book deal don't think that this is like a record label where they about to give you a marketing budget y 'all know y 'all you know you're like a marketing budget and a promotion budget like you're gonna really have to go out there and do the work on your own like they do have a publicist that you know might help you book some things but even with that that's hard to do if you're not already somebody like if you bring in like an author that just has a really good story but they don't really have like the name brand recognition.

36:20Man, try to get them booked on a TV show. Try to get them booked on radio or podcast. You're like, I don't even know who that is. So that's the most difficult part of the book industry. But then like the company me and Kevin Hart got with Audible, we do audio scripted. My girl, Nicole Shelton, she runs that. So she's the person that's day to day with all of the different creatives that we may be doing, you know, audio scripted with. So you got to always have your own team that connects with the team, you know, inside of these systems. I want to talk about the book industry, but my last question about this podcast, Netflix, do you think that people are going to watch podcasts on Netflix?

36:54Because like me personally, right? I watch The Breakfast Club a lot on YouTube. I probably won't be watching as much Breakfast Club on... No, we're friends. No, I'm just saying, honestly, because not because of the content, it's because the barrier of entry. Like, I'm a Netflix guy. I only watch Netflix at 9 o 'clock, 10 o 'clock at night in my living room in front of a television. I don't watch Netflix on my phone unless I'm on like a plane. But I watch YouTube on my phone when I'm driving. I watch YouTube all the time. Like, you know what I mean? So there's a barrier of entry that kind of makes it harder for somebody to actually watch it.

37:32So how do you think that's going to play out as far as podcasts? I don't know. and you know the reality of the situation is I think back I think back to everything right think back to when cable I mean when TV only had three channels three four channels and then cable came around and now everybody had a cable box in their house right and then you know I think about the internet when we used to go on to dial up and be on everybody.com I'm sure there was a point where people was like I ain't never going on the internet you know what I'm saying and then when you tried to go on the internet the shit would take mad long and the noise would be beeping and blah.

38:06He'd be like, I don't have the pages for this. But eventually, everybody went to the internet. I can go back to radio, you know, 18, 19 years ago. There was people saying, what is that Twitter? I'm never getting on that Twitter. I'm not going to spend my time on Twitter, right? Then when we started recording our interviews for radio and putting them online, there was so many personalities like, I'm not doing, I'm not ever going to do that. Those people ended up getting left behind. I can think about, I can think about being with Viacom when YouTube first came out. Viacom didn't want to put none of their content on YouTube.

38:43Ah, nobody's going to watch that. We need to keep them coming back, you know, to the TV. Radio. I remember when we was putting all Breakfast Club interviews on Power1051FM.com, and we were just putting the clips on YouTube. I'm like, yo, we need to be on YouTube. We need to be on YouTube. No, we need to keep people coming back to the.com. No, the world has changed. We need to be on YouTube. the week that we had Hillary Clinton hot sauce in her bag on a Monday and Birdman put some respect on my name on a Friday. The numbers was so, I remember somebody had took that Birdman clip and put it online and they had like 72 million views.

39:18This is when we was on Revolt at the time. So you could like screen record and stuff like that. They had like 72 million views in 24 hours. They were like, all right, we're going to be going on, you know, YouTube from now on. So my point is, there's always going to be change, right? And there's always going to be people who be like, ah, I don't think I'm going to. Oh, so that wasn't on YouTube at that time? No, just with clips. Oh, so the Birdman one was the reason why y 'all started going on YouTube? Birdman and Hillary. So that Birdman one, that, oh, y 'all put that on YouTube after, because it's on your YouTube.

39:46It's on YouTube now. But the first person to put it on YouTube was just somebody. A clipper. Yeah, was watching it live on Revolt. And so that's what I'm saying. I think that, you know, Netflix is literally just another platform for people to watch content. like we watch content on so many different things now and it and listen it would scare me if it was probably any other streaming service other than netflix i'm willing to take a chance with netflix like netflix is in everybody's home netflix is on remote controls netflix is in hotels netflix is all around the world if it was any other streaming platform i'd be like i don't know any other streaming platform is not the number one platform that's what i'm saying netflix i'm willing to take the chance.

40:24And also, it's not like we're not on social media or YouTube anymore. Oh, are you still on YouTube? Yeah, but it's just different. We're putting clips of things on YouTube. Clips. So, the entire episodes. Is it daily that it's on Netflix? Every day? Every day. Yeah, I think that's why I think the Breakfast Club has a chance. I watched you on Instagram remind us that yo, it's on this date, it's on this date. We know that the Breakfast Club is coming on every day. Some of these shows, I have no idea when they come out. So, it's like... That's the point. if, I won't say their name, but like a show comes out, it's like, y 'all see the clip on Instagram.

40:57I don't know when the episode came out. I just know I saw the clip. Like there's going to - I mean, is it Joe and Jada, Rory? Like who? It's like a - I don't know. There's a bunch of them. So I mean, yeah, the Joe and Jada show - Rich Paul and Max Kellerman. Let's say Joe and Jada versus The Breakfast Club. The Breakfast Club is a daily show that comes out that's part of people's routines. If you drive and you're listening to the show, Joe and Jada is a weekly podcast that's extremely successful, but it comes out once a week. Those are different models here. Yes. the weekly podcast that comes out once a week versus the daily show that comes out every single day.

41:28So you're saying that the daily show that comes out every single day has a greater advantage over the weekly show that comes out once a week. Right, because do we know? But they also put their past episodes, I saw that too. So Joe and J that put all of their episodes is now on Netflix. You can catch up on them. That was a choice though because like I think that's another thing too. People think that like they're taking catalog. No, they're not. All Netflix want is new episodes. So if you choose to put you know your back catalog on there that's yeah you chose to do that but they didn't take it off youtube but that's on netflix those on both it's on both those are deal points that people should know right like hey what is the contractual agreement is it one episode every week do we have to do two do we have to put two hours of media up right because it could just be one episode like those are the deal points that most people don't read the file lines and know i mean from what i was told they wanted and from what i saw for us i can't speak like i said i can't speak for nobody else.

42:19They want it to reflect your podcast distribution. Okay. So if you put out a daily podcast and you put it out as an audio and video, they want you to put it out on Netflix as a daily podcast. So if you do, you know, once a week, every Thursday, they want that podcast once a week, you know, every Thursday. And shot too because there's certain cameras that Netflix won't allow to be on their platform. So it has to be shot in a certain way. Well, I don't know about that now because I said I saw some night, I saw some Lifetime movies on Netflix, so I feel like they opening up floodgates as far as...

42:52No, I'm being honest. I know what you're talking about, the conversation you're talking about. Yeah, but it's cheaper. That's another aspect from a business standpoint. Netflix has very thin revenue. They have very thin margins on their revenue because they spend so much money on content. They spend more money on content than anybody else. Now. That's not sustainable. Well, that's why the ad business is so important to them, right? But that's also why low-costing content is important as well. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. It's low-costing content compared to a series. And it doesn't cost as much, right?

43:25Like, we had to wait four years for Stranger Things to come back. All I got to wait is a day to watch a special clip again. Man, when the last writer's crack happened, I hit my team up, and I said, yo, I remember when the writer's crack previously, before the last one happened, it was the rise of reality television. and so I said this writer's strike should be the rise of podcasters and they were like what do you mean I said because we're already doing exactly like this right here like sitting here on the set of Earn Your Leisure we're recording it it's gonna go out they're already doing that type of content why not just do licensing deals with them while the writer's strike is going on and put that content on like I don't see why I honestly don't see why it wouldn't you know garner eyeballs You think about what the number one show is during the pandemic with Suits, right?

44:16Suits was shot five years ago. They just showed the back catalog of what they had. It was like, oh, this was already produced. You're right. So, like, it's there, right? So, like, all these, I don't even want to call it, like, the video podcast, right? Like, they have to treat what they're creating as a catalog because it is going to be that. It is a catalog. Like, in three, four years, like, somebody might say, hey, we want all of the information. And that's why, like, we've made a concerted effort. It was like a lot of the content needs to be evergreen. like some of these topics need to live forever like whatever's happening that's trending in this moment three years from now like you're not gonna care but like if it's evergreen topics informational that lives forever man content is king I don't even think people realize the gold somebody like Breakfast Club is sitting on or Vlad TV or the guy you was just talking about he just sold you know all that money just for content right like you know like I be seeing all of these like I saw MTV they deleted I guess it was their MTV News or like Hip Hop DX just deleted all of their past interviews and I found this I hit my man Trent because I was thinking about a Nipsey interview because I guess when J.

45:18Cole dropped I didn't see it but I guess the the mixtape was you can pay what you want yeah yeah it's like the LaRussell the LaRussell model but LaRussell got that model from Nipsey remember it was the proud to pay and so I hit my man Trent Clark I'm like yo Trent I said yo what's that interview with Nipsey man because Nipsey was in the interview saying how I told him I love him but I wouldn't pay $100 for his album $1 ,000 for his album or whatever, I said, I'm trying to find that clip. And he sent me the story of how Hip Hop DX or whoever it is, I guess it's Hip Hop DX, Uproxx or somebody deleted 20 years of content.

45:51I'm like, I have no idea. But my point is like, do you understand what you're deleting? You're literally deleting probably tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars of just straight up content. Especially something like MTV. I remember when MTV News did that. I'm like, yo, they bugging. And there was a time where they were the only source. It was Kurt Larder. So you think that there's a time where we're really going to see not just people checking old interviews, but syndication. Netflix really putting out like how Seinfeld made millions of dollars in syndication. Like you think like podcasts can fall into syndication?

46:28Yes. If you got the right catalog. I mean, everything is so scattered, right? Like everything is all over the place as far as people's content. So it would be really hard to try to get Breakfast Club all the past 15 years and say, we want all this back catalog and you can only find it here. But I feel like, yeah, that's going to be a thing because Netflix isn't just acquiring podcasts that exist. They're launching original podcasts. Yeah, and they got the Michael Irvin. Michael Irvin, Pete Davidson show. Like they're launching original podcasts. So that's going to be their own catalog. And their model is actually smart.

47:03All right, let's go get these established people that folks are going to come here for, and then also let's present them with some new shit as well. Well, that's the thing. Yeah, the established thing. You meant established as far as the show, but even established, the podcast industry is kind of, we talked about this before, but it's hard to break through as a podcaster if you're not a celebrity right now. That's tough to say, man. I feel like celebrity podcasting ruined the game. That was one thing Ian said here that I agreed with because people's names did cause a lot of these podcasters to dump a lot of money fast, right?

47:44And that's actually the wildest thing about podcasting. Five years ago, everybody was just guessing. You know what I'm saying? You were just guessing. You was like, all right, let's give this person this and give this person that. Let's try to negotiate this for that because you didn't really know what certain podcasts should be making. Now, five years later, you got all this data. You know how much. If a podcast is doing, let's just say, 100 ,000 downloads a month, you know what that person should be paid. You know what kind of ad revenue you're going to get back for that. If a person's doing$3 million,$4 million annually, you know what a person should be getting paid because you know what kind of ad revenue you should get back for that.

48:18When you're doing these deals with these celebrities, you're really just dumping a lot of money into a name. That don't mean it's going to translate into actual audio download. I'm praying it works. And I still have yet to see the super celebrity who launches a podcast and they're having as much success as Ernie Leisure or Decisions Decisions. Like right now, look at Deontay Kyle. Like, he was driving trucks. He's cutting through way more than a lot of these celebrities are. That's a fact. I mean, Joe and Jada, they obviously are successful. They're celebrities. Cam 'ron and Mace, they're successful.

48:55What do you call success? And I'm not sure. Cam and Mace, I can tell you right now, Cam and Mace is successful audio and video. Oh, you're saying the audio numbers is looking a little shaky? Cam and Mace audio is crazy. I mean, no, their audio numbers are crazy. I'm saying audio and video, Cam and Mace are super successful. But then you might have, like, Joe and Jada might have moderate success. Not saying that they're not growing, but they've only been around six months. Oh, so the audio numbers for them are not. They've only been around six months. No, I'm just kidding. You know what I'm saying?

49:22They've only been around six months. But I know you're saying that they're super successful because you see them everywhere. All right, okay. That's fair enough. Virality. Doesn't always equate to... That's all I'm saying. That's the conversation I have. Let's rap about it. Right, like we see it. And I've looked at the charts there in the top 10. Let's rap about it? The audio starts. Top 10 of what? In the music chart. Oh, okay, on Apple. But yo, go look at... Like Bloomberg just published the top 50... podcasts. Go look at those. Those are the numbers. That's not black. That's black, white, everybody across the board.

50:00True crime. You just said that. We do that. Black Effect? Yeah, we do that at Black Effect and the company, me and Kevin Hart got SBH. Finding Tamika, salute to Erica Alexander and Color Farm. That was the first one we launched under SBH. It told a story about a young woman named Tamika Houston who went missing in South Carolina in the early 2000s. And I mean, it's such a dope story because it blends the supernatural with just the plight of black women who go missing in this country and how they don't get the media attention that white women get. And it was just a great story that was told. Not only did it do super successful, man, we won like every audio award for that true.

50:42And it's on Audible. Yeah. And see, that's the true crime, um sports business those are like the top genres for podcasting I think sometimes we get caught up in our own hip hop bubbles and we think because our algorithm tells us that all of these shows we see these shows all the time those aren't the ones doing them numbers I look at the list on that top 50 how many black shows was on that top 50 list uh Joe was on there Joe Budden yeah Breakfast Club Breakfast Club number 15 we were the highest one and one of Shannon's joints was on there. Club Shea Shea was on there. Million Dollars Worth a Game was on there.

51:19That was it. Drink Champs is usually on there. Yeah, there's something going on. Well, I mean, yeah, but Drink Champs doesn't do that very well, but they're usually on there. And I was about to call it a black podcast. I don't know if no jumper was on there. You know what I'm saying? But they're black. Black adjacent. Yeah, with a lot of black content. Black face. We won. You saw the boxing match, right? I did see that. Actually, you know what? I thought that was dope. I think that all of those white guys who make content off black culture, I mean, make money off black culture and create content off black culture, they need to fight a black man twice a year in the ring.

51:57Well, now I can tell you, he wants you to fit on with a little baby. I don't want to say that. You saw the question he asked him in the ring? A little baby? About his wife? That was crazy. That would be cool. That's kind of like a tax. That's like a cultural tax. You got to fight a black man in the ring twice a year. Cultural tax. I think that would be dope. I think that'd be dope. Not mad at that. Knock out. My point is with those top 50 podcasts that you saw in America, a lot of the ones that we see with the virality weren't on there because people like to actually listen. And when you become a habit, and I'm not saying that these guys can't become a habit.

52:31Yeah. Right? Like I said, Joe and Jay don't even have been around six months. Yeah. You know what I mean? It is what it is. Been around a lot longer, but they are booming. Like I fully expect to see Cam and Mace on those lists. in a minute. But that, to me, those are the things that matter. Like, I hear people have these conversations and, you know, oh, we're the biggest, blah, blah, blah, the numbers are right there if you want to look at them and see. From that standpoint? That's it. Books. Let's talk about the books because you're right. This book industry is something that's crazy because I got a call the other day from somebody, hip-hop icon, and they was asking about a book and I'm just kind of explaining to them, like, it's not like music.

53:11Like, it, an independent record like we do the independent but then have the major as like the distribution I'm like I don't think that's really how it works they hate that word publishing they wanted to self publish? yeah they wanted to self publish but they wanted to have the backing of a major I'm like I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too in that regard but then we had to realize that you can't be on the New York Times list if you're self published you can't there's a variety of different things that's like it's a real you want to tell them why though stranglehold like that's the education in itself it was like when you realized I'm like well how do they make up the New York Times bestsellers list nobody knows well they told us some of the formula some of the formula so it's like you have to have a diversification of outlets that are having your book on sales right so like it could be Walmart it could be Amazon it could be Barnes and Nobles the mom and pop mom and pop shops like when you combine all those things together then it'll account for the New York Times bestseller the tough thing And the first week, the first week.

54:12That's why the pre-orders are important. Exactly. Because they count for the first week. If I'm doing it independently, how do I get into, you know, one of the major four? How do I get there? It's almost impossible to get there. So it's tough to even make it to the list. I've seen that, though. I've seen people have the diversification, sell$15 ,000,$20 ,000 the first week. Then you go look at the Times charts and they've sold more than 10 of the books that's on there and still didn't make it. And still didn't make it? New York Times is just a political list. Like, I want a list that is just weighted sales.

54:44That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Where are the lists? And I don't even think USA, I think USA Today might just be straight sales. I'm not sure. I think it is. But that's what you want. You just want a list that just gives you straight sales. New York Times got just way too many politics with their list. I don't know how you make the list. Well, you know, it's also like the Apple Podcast charts. Nobody really knows the formula for Apple Podcast charts either. Nah. Because, like I said earlier, they favor new podcasts. Like, subscribe, the comments. It's a bunch of different, yeah, retention, all these things.

55:21That's why I like raw data. Show me the numbers. Don't tell me what you feel somebody is doing. Don't show me that you number one on a list out of 10 podcasts. Because it'd be like, well, you might just be number one on that network. Just show me the raw numbers. I want to see the raw data. When you see the raw data, you can actually see what's going on. You've made the list for both books. Three. Three books. Yeah, yeah. No, actually, did I? Black Privilege, definitely. The other two were national bestsellers. So I'm not sure. Yeah, I thought it was two, but maybe it's three. I don't remember.

55:58But I want to talk about the publishing part where you're actually giving voices or the people who have voices, opportunity to create books. Shout out to our sister Tameka Mallory. her book is actually on my bookshelf Two Chains is on the way Two Chains is on the way but I want to talk about Arsenio Hall man Arsenio Hall is on the way I heard you talk about and how proud to be a part of it that you were and for our generation that means something right like this is the guy that we watched or we would if we were lucky we could stay up to watch but like talk about that process him reaching out and what that's been like no I reached out to him man because you know I got four people in this entertainment business who have just always inspired me and you know Clarence Avon of course the black godfather P.D.

56:37Green, you know, who was a radio personality from D.C. I never got the chance to meet him. You know, he's passed away. Rest the piece to Clarence Avon as well. But P.D. Green, they got a dope movie about him called Talk To Me that stars Don Chido and Taraji P. Henson. Y 'all should check that out. And then Jay-Z, of course, and Arsenio Hall. Because I don't think people really truly understand what Arsenio Hall was to black culture. Like, I saw an episode of Bag Fuel where they were debating and whether or not Arsenio Hall was hip-hop. Arsenio Hall was black popular culture, period. Hip-hop probably doesn't even grow the way it does if you don't have somebody like Arsenio Hall with a mainstream platform like he had putting the artists on that he was putting on.

57:24Where else would you have seen Wu-Tang back then? You know what I mean? Everybody was not Snoop Dogg. I think people forget how new hip-hop is and how those guys were just breaking into the mainstream in like the late 80s, early 90s. And Arsenio Hall was giving all those people's platforms, not even just hip hop. Man, the cast of Living Single, you know? The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan. Like, he was platforming black people at a time where black people didn't have a place to be platform. So that was just always super inspirational to me, man. And, you know... I was going to say President Sue.

57:58The Bill Clinton saxophone moment. Bill Clinton and saxophone. That's him. The Democrats started pandering to black people on Arsenio Hall's show. You know what I mean? And so for me, it was like, man, I remember I always wanted to do late night television because Arsenio Hall. But I'm older, so I come from a generation where certain things you feel like you got to do, you know, in this business. So if I get the opportunity to do late night, I want to do late night because Arsenio did it. And, man, I remember Arsenio was doing an interview for Coming to America, part two. And they asked him, who is the Arsenio Hall of this generation?

58:31he said man I'll probably have to say somebody like Charlemagne because you know Charlemagne you know he's got a radio show but it comes out on YouTube and you know people watch it and he has a you know a variety of guests and like you know it's like the epicenter of black culture and that's why I get my news and stuff I'm like oh and that was so freeing to me cause I'm like yo the guy that I'm aspiring to be like in this late night space is saying that what I'm already doing is enough like you know it's a different era that we're in. You don't necessarily have to be on late night TV. So that is what made me even just like, I got to reach out to Arsenio.

59:06Cause no more, I mean, I think I had, I had did his show once before when his talk show, I came back, but we didn't have like a relationship relationship. And so when I got the book imprint, man, that's what I want to do. I want to tell those kinds of stories, those people that inspired a generation. So it was just like, yo, Arsenio, you want to do a book? And he wanted to write a book. That's the, that's, that's why it's important to have people like us in those spaces. Because Arsenio's about to be 70 years old. Crazy. He could have did his memoir 20 years ago. Nobody reached out to Arsenio to do a memoir in all of these years.

59:40Like, I got to be the first person. And I don't even know if I was the first person. I'm just saying, I feel like it would have got done already. You know, if somebody had. If somebody else had. That's why you're here. You're in a position of power and you're using it the right way. But let's give us some information. It's going to be out in April, too. You can go pre-order that right now. Right now. The book game. Because the first person that educated us on the book game with Ash Cash. You know him? Yeah, I know Ash Cash. Ash Cash. He educated us on the independent side and he gave us a lot of game.

1:00:05And then when we got, you know, our book deal and we started working, then we got educated on how it works from a system standpoint, working with, you know, major publishers. And there's so much stuff that people don't know. Even like, all right, most, the self-help books are going to probably sell more than a memoir. Hell yeah. Most of the time, right? And it's like - And it's harder for you to get on that list too because self-help is like - Yeah. Frowder. Yeah, because even the week that we made the New York Times bestsellers list, the number one book for that week was, remember when the dude read the book on the sidelines?

1:00:35AJ Brown brought the book out at the playoff game. Oh, Think and Grow Rich? No, it was a book that had been dormant for like a year. Comic Habits? No, no, no. It was a book that nobody, I don't want to. He was working on his mental health. So there was a time during the season where the ball wasn't coming his way. he takes out the book during a playoff game and starts reading on the sidelines so that becomes the moment right they won the playoff game obviously they won the Super Bowl but like that happened the same week we dropped it and that that moment watched I think they had like a hundred thousand it went crazy it went crazy so random stuff like that but we had to learn so much as far as like okay you get you get the upfront money right then you got the percentages on the back end then there's the audio side of a book which is different from the hard copy Then hard copies are different from paper.

1:01:25Our paperback just came out a year after the hard copy came out. Large print. They got to squeeze and juice that hard copy. Hard copy costs so much to print. We got to make sure we get all of this out before you introduce the paperback. Then the translations. Like now the Spanish version came out like 10 months after the English. So there's so much stuff with the book. Like what's some key points you think people need to really know if they're trying to, you know, become an author? Take less money up front. That's what I would do. And that's actually, you know, what I did. Like, you know, my first book deal was a moderate-sized advance.

1:02:01You know, it was decent, right? But Black Privilege did so well that I started getting royalty checks immediately because I recouped what my advance was. And then, like, I'm talking about immediately. I started getting royalty checks for Black Privilege the year it came out in 2017, which was, like, damn, like, that was kind of crazy, right? And so the next book comes out, the book advance is way bigger. So even though you might sell a lot of copies, you're still trying to chop down this big-ass advance. So when it came time for my third book, I was like... I don't want that big ass advance. I said, actually, what I want is just give me what I got for the last book.

1:02:45And I want a book imprint because I want to be able to help other people, you know, put their books out. And, you know, plus I was peeping how all the book publishing companies, they like to bring their authors to Breakfast Club. Why do they like bringing their authors to Breakfast Club? Because they know Breakfast Club can move books. So why not give a host on the Breakfast Club who's already an author, a New York Times bestseller? Why not give that person a book imprint? And that's your blueprint. You already did it with the podcast. That's it. You know, like I'm never going to be in a business that I already haven't had a lot of experience in as a talent, because when you're a talent, you're seeing things from a different perspective.

1:03:18You're seeing things that you could do to continue to grow as a talent, but you're also seeing things that the executives could do for the talent. And so that puts you in a very unique space. I guess it's like a I guess like when you sign to like a Rockefeller back in the day or a good music with Kanye. I mean, that it can it can be either or. Right. It can help or it can hurt. Like you might have the artist executive who understands how it is to be an artist and knows what executives do wrong so they can fill in all of the gaps. Or you might have an artist who just wants to be an executive because they see everybody else doing it, but they don't really know what it takes to be an executive and help artists.

1:03:59So for me, I just wanted my own imprint. And for the past five years, that's what we've been doing. We published 11 books over the last five years. Is it similar to Black Effect? Like you have like a 50-50 partner? I'm going to be honest with y 'all. And I've never said this. I don't make any money off publishing people's books because all the money goes to the author, as it should. Like, I'm not kidding. Give me 5%, 10, 10, 10, you know what I mean? Why? Like, I'd rather you have the opportunity. I'll make all my money on the back end if you sell some books. On the royalties. On the royalties.

1:04:33You know what I mean? And I'm cool with that. Like, that don't bother me in any way, shape, or form. Like, you know, let me help these different individuals get their books published. I mean, you know. Cheryl McKissick. Cheryl McKissick, you know, the black family who built America, being able to tell that story. You know, Mandy and Weezy with Decisions, Decisions. I was on vacation in my favorite island, Anguilla. When that news came through that they was on the New York Times bestsellers list, I got drunk. Like, that felt great. Like, yo, my girl's on the New York Times bestsellers list. Like, that matters.

1:05:04Like, Don Staley, legendary coach at the University of South Carolina. Legendary WNBA player. was literally a person who was playing in the WNBA and coaching at Temple at the same time. Like, people don't even understand how iconic somebody like Don Staley is. And being from South Carolina and watching what she's done for my wife's alma mater, it's like, yo, I want to help you tell that story. The rollout was crazy, too. You had Asia Wilson, her, at South Carolina. Yeah. Incredible. That was incredible. And she's off and on the New York Times bestsellers list all the time. But that goes back to what I was talking about, right?

1:05:39Like she's already an iconic figure. So you, so you probably, you're the most influential person in our culture. No, I don't know. I don't think about that. You think about shit like that? Well, because I'm sure. Well, because I'm thinking, okay, if you got a black effect, how many people's on black effect? How many shows? Uh, I think we had like 60, 60 something. 60? Yeah, I think. All right. So you got, so you got 60 and there's more because a lot of shows have two or three people. So let's say a hundred creators on a black effect. How many people's on your book publisher? You got a whole staff at black effect too.

1:06:08Like Black Effect has its own staff. Like it's not I Heart's team. Shout out to Jawara. Jawara, Chanel, Nicole, A-King. You know what I'm saying? Shout out to the team. Yeah, Taylor, like a bunch of them. Taylor, congratulations. Congratulations to Taylor. And then on the book side, how many authors? We've published 11 books over the last five years. And over the next three, it'll be another 11. Because we got four this year. This year we got 2 Chainz coming out. Arsenio Hall and Jess Hilarious and you're in the film industry business yeah me and my dude Basil Iwantik we launched a film company called Southland Films see Basil is so ill and I I like to I like to be with people who've already had success if you know anything about Basil Iwantik the John Wick franchise that's his franchise you know I think A Star Is Born that was his you know I think The Town as well but I like their model right Like, Basil, he don't wait on nobody.

1:07:10Like, Basil goes out there, raises the money himself, and goes to shoot. And everybody knows the story of, you know, Eva Longoria with the first John Wick, right? Like, the first John Wick came out, and, like, right before they was about to shoot, you know, the day before they was about to shoot, they ended up being short some money. They needed somebody to come in real quick with a bag. And Eva came through with a bag. and Eva will tell you right now that was her biggest ROI on anything. Oh, she owns part of that franchise? Since. Not the franchise, but that first film. First film, first film?

1:07:43Or since. She flexed on us so crazy. We was in France last summer. Mandy and Weezy was there. They tell you, we was in France and that's the first time I met Eva because she has a network on iHeart. It's like the Brown Effect. It's like for Latinos, you know what I mean? The Brown Effect. Right, but she... She... I was just talking to her and I'm like, yeah, you know, me and Basil, you know, we launched the film company. I was like, he always tells me the story about how you came through and, you know, saved the day with the first John Wick. And she was like, yeah, I just got a, the number was seven figures.

1:08:15She was just like, I just got that check last week. On the residuals. And I was like, huh? And she was like, yeah, you know, residuals. It's 14, 15 years later. You still getting seven figure checks off a movie? like that is the type of business that we need to be doing so even when you talk about the book business right i don't care that i don't make any money off any of these books now because these books aren't going anywhere these books will be here forever so it's a long it's a long game i might not even be here in the future and somebody in my family will be getting royalties you know not just from you know my books but you know books that i've helped to publish like that is That's what I like to do.

1:08:59That's what I'm here for. So you're the biggest in the game. No, I don't know. What are you talking about? Well, what I'm saying is that. I want you to say it. I don't feel like that. You've empowered, let's say, over 120 people as far as on. Just creatives. Just creatives. Oh, yeah. Just creatives. Easily, easily. Just creatives. Yeah, yeah. Between Black Effect and SBH with Kevin and Black Privilege Publishing, yeah, easily. That's a lot. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, we had dinner with Nas. Shout out to him. They had a hell of a, yeah, master pill as far as what they're doing on the music side.

1:09:32I feel like the only thing that you haven't done is music, right? I tried back in the day. Like a record label? Yeah, I had a, I put out a compilation album called South Crack, the album back in the day. South Cracker? South Crack. South Crack, because it was a play on South Carolina at South CAC. And it was a compilation album full of a bunch of South Carolina artists. We put it out through EMI. I did a P &D deal, you know, back in the day. That's when I was with Wendy. And I mean, it was cool because there was a group that ended up getting signed because of that album. It was a group called Statehouse Records from Orangeburg, South Carolina.

1:10:03They ended up signing the Grand Hustle. They had a song called Crank That Roy. And Crank That Roy was on that project. And once again, I ain't make no money off that. But I was just using my position to create an opportunity for this whole beautiful state that I love that has all of these artists. I wasn't even able to pay nobody nothing from that album. The only thing I could do was give an opportunity. That's why I salute, you know, all the artists who just gave me records, you know, to put on that album. Right. Because I was just trying to get some exposure for us. And I mean, we did end up getting at least one person signed from that project.

1:10:38But it's like, yo, man, we talk about taking risk and we talk about, you know, gambling. I always say, man, if what you build only benefits you, it's not big enough. So if I build something that's trying to benefit a lot of people and it don't work, I'm happy with just the fact that we even tried to do something for a large amount of people. That's real. Before we leave, and you're in the culinary industry as well. Yeah, me and my wife have some fast food franchises. We invested in. Crystal's? Crystal. Crystal in South Carolina. Crystal's like the down south white castle. Yeah, I think change is involved.

1:11:13That's how I got involved. And see, this is why us talking to each other is important. little Duval was having Duval Day big community event he does in his hometown of Jacksonville and I just saw him with a bunch of crystal sliders and I hadn't seen crystals in a while I just hit him up like yo where you get crystal from and he was like oh you know 2 Chainz 2 Chainz fuck with them 2 Chainz got you know some type of situation with them 2 Chainz is like I can't remember his exact title it's like head of cultural something I don't I don't know remember what his exact title is but I just hit Chainz up and Chainz was like yeah this is what I'm doing with them he was like I'm going to plug you with, you know, Jonathan, who runs the holding company.

1:11:50And me and Jonathan and my man Billy. Salute to Billy. We got on the phone. And the rest is history, you know? So we got, we opened two already. One in Orangeburg, South Carolina. One in Walterboro. And we got four more coming to South Carolina. That's fire. What about politics? Politics, man. When you said the biggest, I thought that was the piece. It was like, who do people call when they need to have that interview? I'm like. Well, he's the Oprah Winfrey of our generation. Kanye said that 10 years ago. Did he? Yeah, Kanye West said that 10 years ago. What did they call? They call a lot of people.

1:12:24It's a short list. Yeah, it's a short list for a serious conversation. But you've, Stephen A. Smith, he's taking a different pathway. But he's coming into that lane too. He's coming into that lane hard. Pause. Hey, yo. I think Stephen A. I said pause. I said pause. I think the difference between me and Stephen A is like, I genuinely enjoy having the conversation with people because I'm not an expert at any of this. You know what I'm saying? And I'm not trying to be an expert at any of this. I'm just a concerned taxpayer citizen who looks around at the world, has questions, and has the opportunity to ask the people who need to be asked the questions.

1:13:06That's how I've always even looked at the entertainment game. Like when I got the chance to sit down with Jay-Z, we have all of these discussions about, oh, man, would Jay-Z still be around if Biggie was alive? Like, why nobody ever asked Jay that? I never understood that. I would rather ask Jay. Oh, you think Jay-Z stole young Chris Floyd? Ask Jay that. So when I got the opportunity to interview Jay 13 years ago, those were just regular random hood questions that we, I got the opportunity to ask him. I treat politics the same way. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to sit around and speculate on whether or not, you know, oh, man, Kamala Harris locked up all these people from marijuana.

1:13:41Let's ask her the question. You know, Joe Biden was the author of the 1994 crime bill, the 88 crack laws, the 86 mandatory minimum. Let's talk to him about it. But you're more than just an interviewer. You have become a political pundit also. You have political views. Yeah, but I mean, I mean, no different than y 'all. Donald Trump tweeted about you. That was crazy. Look, we've been in spaces, and your name comes up, like, in political settings, and they're like, well, what is he going to think? Speaking about you. I'm like, damn. That's crazy how they think we're all monolithic. I don't know.

1:14:21How would I know what he's going to think? But, yeah. I mean, listen, that's a cool space to be in for no other reason other than that's the shit that matters. You know what I'm saying? Like you always want to have a line to people who are involved in shit that matters. Like, you know, it was funny because in one of my group chats earlier with a couple of my political homies, they posted something that, and I'll say it, I don't care. They posted something that Governor Shapiro, Josh Shapiro was talking about in regards to what's going on in Minnesota. And I said, that's funny because that's the first person I reached out to.

1:14:56because I don't you know sometimes you see certain things and you just want to talk directly to somebody who you know knows what the hell they talking about in regards to it because man what we do is very important like we have the ears of tens of millions of people all the time so I'm I'm not going to always be right but I'm at least try to be as informed as possible. I don't want to be out there just guessing and speculating about certain things. I want to be able to have a informed opinion about what it is I'm talking about, even if you, you know, disagree with me. It's fair. Is there anybody that you wouldn't sit down with at this point?

1:15:41I don't think so, because I never understood that, man. Oh, yeah, that's a good question to ask. Talk about that. I think I know where you're going with this. I just never understood it because of I grew up watching Barbara Walters and Diane Sawyer and Oprah and Donahue, like the grand wizard of the KKK would be on those shows. They would go to the prisons and interview Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer. He ate people. Also, I think it's the political climate that we're in right now with such dangerous rhetoric. Rick, people have criticized the breakfast club for platforming people that are dangerous, like Ben Shapiro, other people similar.

1:16:22They were like, why would you give him a platform? What's your, what's your response to that? These guys already have massive platforms. You're not giving Ben Shapiro. Well, I mean, you know, to our, to our culture may not be totally familiar with him. Right. So when he comes on and, you know, he's an intelligent person. So he's going to, he's not going to sound like an idiot when he goes on a breakfast club. So when he's like, Oh yeah, I could, I think a lot of times people want, they want to see us dunking on folks. Not realizing, just watch. If you watch the interview, you'll see a healthy back and forth.

1:16:55You'll see the pushback and stuff like that. And it's funny because when, and that's why I like to watch both worlds, right? We'll bring somebody like Ben Shapiro on and it'll just be people mad. Like, why y 'all got him on there? Should've told him get the fuck out of here. Blah, blah, blah, this and that. Keep that energy for him. But on his platform, he'll be like, it'll be like such and such verses or Ben Shapiro debates Charlemagne on abortion like whatever the topic may be so they frame it a different way so when it's framed a different way you go watch it in a different way but if you're already coming in like I don't want that person on there why is that person there you're not even going to listen to the conversation to see where there was pushback you know what we didn't agree on even when I go on places like Fox do people get mad Just the optics.

1:17:42Did you even listen to what I said? It wasn't until Trump called me a racist sleazebag with low IQ that people was like, oh, I didn't realize he'd be going on Fox News and be calling them out. I didn't understand. I didn't get that. Like, I just, you know, yeah. But when I'm on Fox, the Fox News viewers get it. Trust me, we see all the slander and the backlash. Like, why y 'all bring him on? And you see it both ways. You have the black people saying, why do you go on there? and then you'll see their audience like why the fuck is he on here? He got Trump derangement syndrome. Then you have the people in the middle who actually listened and was like that was actually a good point.

1:18:18Because we got swept in last election cycle they put an article out and said that Oh, that was crazy. Breakfast Club, 19 Keys, Earn Your Leisure and a few other people have been pushing right wing agenda to black people and it's dangerous rhetoric and I think I might have spoke to the guy that wrote the article And I'm just like, it's dangerous that you put that out there because it's like that. It's not true. But also, like when you say something like that, you never know who's actually going to believe that. What I realized is that those people who write those kind of articles don't really have a lot of conversations with a diverse group of black people.

1:19:02They're in a bubble and they talk to a certain group of black people all the time. So they have no idea what black people think about certain things. I bring this example up all the time, but MSNBC did that to me in regards to the border because it was three different situations. There was a parking attendant who used to work in the city that I used to see all the time. and he would come to me and complain to me about these gangs from other countries raising hell in his neighborhood and he wanted something done about it. And I remember him saying, it's because Biden got that fucking border open the way that he does.

1:19:43Then my people in Chicago, they were complaining to me just about how the migrants were getting more resources than they were. They felt like, yo, you got people in the south side of Chicago pouring disenfranchised who can't get nothing from this government, but they giving these people, you know, room and board and money in some cases. So when I'm hearing these conversations, these are black people talking to me about this. So I'll never forget it. I did an interview with Fox News Digital and the guy simply asked me, he asked me a simple question. Charlamagne, do you think the border is going to be an issue come November?

1:20:19And I was like, hell yeah. And literally, I wasn't even expecting him to ask me that question. He just asked me immediately. I just start thinking about all of these people who have been talking to me. I think about when, when, when Mayor Adams, uh, I forgot something that happened in the city and they made all the schools. They made, they made a school, uh, they made all the kids homeschool so the migrants could come in. I forgot. I don't know if it was a snowstorm. It was something that happened in the city and they made all of them. they let all of the migrants stay in the school while the kids stayed home at homeschool and parents called breakfast club wilding.

1:20:53So I'm just thinking about all of these different scenarios. And I say, yeah, but it's not because of, you know, some prejudice towards brown people. It's because people see, you know, people, some people feel a way about crime and other people feel a way about the resources that they see a lot of these migrants getting. So it's an economic issue. Man, I remember MSNBC took that and put Charlemagne Tha God is spreading MAGA messaging. The fuck that got to do with MAGA? Everybody I talked to was black about this situation. Everybody. So it's just like y 'all haven't spoken to anybody outside of your bubble.

1:21:30And y 'all think certain issues are just naturally right wing issues. And then what happens a year later? What ended up being like the top two issue for people? It was the economy and the border. That's it. That's one of the reasons that he was able to make America feel like they're not safe. And like I always say, man, any politician that can make you feel like they're going to put more money in your pocket or make you feel safe, they're going to get you every single time. And that's what he did. He ran a great campaign. Now, how he governs, everybody paying for that right now. But he ran a campaign that caused him to win an election.

1:22:11there you have it ladies and gentlemen straight Charlamagne before we go I just gotta ask you who's your top five hip hop radio personalities of all time top five hip hop radio personalities of all time ah I hate when I get asked this question cause now I gotta be objective and I gotta I gotta salute people who love kicking my back in um I mean definitely Wendy Williams for sure and you can include yourself nah I'm not including myself Wendy Williams Angie Martinez Yep You gotta put star in there Star? You don't think so? He's not in your five Out of everybody? He's not in your five? Well I mean Top five all time Well finish your Ed Lover Okay Good one And um See that's tough man See it's a tough list You know what?

1:23:01Hold on Let me back up a little bit Is Ed Lover Dr. Dre's one? Okay let me back up a little bit Wendy Williams Yeah Angie Martinez Yeah Sway Okay Okay Big Boy Okay Ed Lover Okay Then I would Yeah you're right Then it would be You can even edit that That's my top five My top five That's my top five My top five is Wendy Williams Angie Martinez Big Boy Sway Ed Lover That's the top five To me Hip hop radio personalities Yeah Of all I was definitely gonna put Big Boy in there for sure I was gonna put you in there for sure even Flex I mean regardless I can't put him over those five and then you said personality see to me it's a difference between a personality and a DJ and I mean he's both right but I still those five I mean you can go to iconic interviews they're icons but you can go to iconic interviews from each and every one of them like literally like I mean Big Boy Big Boy yeah because of the whole West Coast I know he's a legend he got a coast he has an entire coast I didn't grow up listening to it like we didn't have access to that I understand he's a legend but we grew up in the 90s so like yeah people didn't grow up listening to Angie Martinez if he was in California yeah I didn't grow up but no we did though I was saying it's our list I was in South Carolina so I didn't hear none of them on the regular but that's why I say those five to me because they transcended whatever region they were in and this was before the internet you know what I mean this was before national syndication you just Big Boy was in movies Sway was all over MTV MTV and you had interviews that you would hear about like you would hear about the locks went on there wild out on Diddy you know R.

1:24:50Kelly just came on and said he got pepper spray by Jay-Z like those are historic moments moments right Wendy was I mean that's what I was saying all the shock jock shit and everything everybody's doing now that's probably the first person I ever Wendy ushered all that bullshit. Well, Breakfast Club is the biggest platform we've ever seen. Of all time. I think Wendy was the biggest personality. Like, I remember listening. This is like WBLS. It was like her and then like Red Alert would come on. And like, this is the first time. Like, Kuhurt. Like, not Kuhurt. DJ Red. What's his name? Chub Rock.

1:25:22DJ? What's his DJ? Mr. Magic? No, he's probably too old. Early than that. But I'm like, yo, this is like the first introduction to like radio. Like, before you even like finding personalities. Then Ed Lover and those guys came. Ed Lover and Dr. Dre had a movie. like we forget that who's the man like yo these people were transcending with a soundtrack but they also had MTV though too so that was that came from radio yeah the OT Raps was first I don't remember and then they got yeah I think so cause they was on Power 105 even before that they was on Hot 97 Hot 97 first and then they went to Power 105 like these guys like I always looked at the people who transcended radio yeah like who showed you that you can be more than a radio personality Those are the people who influenced me.

1:26:05Like when I started getting into television and stuff, that wasn't a shock to me because I saw all those people I just named do it, you know, before me. When people were calling me to make cameos in movies and on TV shows, none of that surprised me because I saw everybody do that before me. To me, that was like the hip hop star radio kit. Like, you know, do you have a book? Have you made an appearance on a TV show? Like that is the type of stuff that I used to look at. So that top five, to me, those are the ones that are goaded. And when you look at somebody like Wendy, man, Wendy left hip-hop radio and went to television and had a 14, 15-year run on national daytime TV that was unprecedented.

1:26:46That's a fact. No, she's definitely up there for sure. And Angie, I mean, wait till Angie, wait till Angie Martinez gets in her storytelling back. Wait till somebody like Angie Martinez, who was at the forefront of 90s culture, who is beloved by everybody. Right. Wait until she starts telling us those stories from the 90s. Like, you know, like the Tupac interview that she, she's such a woman of integrity. That you're going to put out. We are. I text you. Yeah. No, it's coming. No, no, no. Like, it's been a lot of conversation since then. That's good. And Angie's like, nah, fuck that. Y 'all be on my head too much about this.

1:27:26Every time it even gets mentioned. And you got the right place. Yes. See, it's definitely coming out. But, you know, Angie's got her own situations going on too, but we're definitely going, you know. She's one of the most talented people ever. Like, even us being interviewed by her, it's like, you can just realize, like, some people it's just different level of interviewer because it's so easy. The conversation is so easy. I always said Angie's superpower is making people comfortable. And that is a very rare trait to have. You're talking about being the person that everybody goes to. Like, read Angie's book.

1:27:58R. Kelly gets pepper sprayed at the garden. You just got pepper sprayed at the garden. The first thing you want to do is go talk to Angie Martinez. Angie's not even on the air. So they got to bump who's ever off the air to put Angie on so R. Kelly can come talk to him. and then as R. Kelly's there Hove is like I'm coming to the station R. Kelly you got to go cause you're talking about being pepper sprayed who pepper sprayed you wants to talk about pepper spraying I'm not saying that that happened I don't know but that's what's in the book that actually happened I was at the show the next night really it was a crazy show cause he brought cause he had to fill in all that time so he brought like T.I.

1:28:37he brought Fat I remember that Jay Z and Friends but that's my point like think about it the locks come on and want to talk about that was crazy Throwing a refrigerator Off a roof on Diddy Diddy gotta come in With the contracts On Angie's show I think our biggest moment Is definitely Takeover Ether Like how Oh my god Having Fat Joe being up there K Slay He played a part too But we don't even talk about that We don't even talk about How many artists she helped break Yeah She broke Jay-Z First person to ever play A Jay-Z song on the radio Was Angie Martinez Battle of the Beast Was she? Yeah it's Battle of the Beast I forgot what record it was But it was Battle of the Beast It was um Ain't No Ain't No?

1:29:09Nah before Ain't No Was it? When he was rapping Yeah Am I like that? He was rapping fast? No, I gotta be in my lifetime. It might have been in my lifetime. In my lifetime. I don't remember. It's in the book. Aint Noe was retired, though. That won five nights in a row. It did? Yeah. I used to keep track of her five nights in a row. It was Aint Noe. I just know it was, whatever it was, it was Jay-Z's first time getting played on the radio. Yeah. And that's when him and Dame pulled up to Angie with the Rockefeller Benz, with the Rockefeller logo on the front, with champagne and all that. I thought it was Flex.

1:29:33I remember Flex told the money that Dame tried to pay him. And he was like, look, I'm not gonna take the money, but I'm gonna play the record. Angie played Angie played Hole first and that's what I'm saying Angie we don't give Angie Martinez the credit she deserves I really we don't give her her flowers the way she's supposed to she is a and always been a person of integrity like you think about it I don't want to put the Tupac interview out because I know what this can cause how many people will do that now? they putting it out before it's edited they putting it out thinking about it after at the time think about how big Tupac was as a star.

1:30:08Yeah. And he on there talking filthy about everybody. Viral. That was a moment. Listening to her we spoke to her about that story and the part where like he didn't really know who she was until he got to jail because he's listening to her every day in jail. You see what I'm saying? And he's like yo I need to sit down with her. Yo we talk about that think about her being a judge on American Idol. That's a fact. And then saying I don't want to do this. I'm good. I don't want to do this. Yeah yeah yeah. I don't want to have to tell nobody it ain't that good. She's there for big too. Like, there's big stories.

1:30:37And she never went bad on nobody. Never. Most radio personalities, at some point, they become the villain. You started out as the villain. You were the villain. Yeah. The ultra villain. I can still be if I want to. But you pivoted, though. I pivoted because you know why? I started to realize, like, I felt like I was punching down. Because when I first started, you know, I'm a little nigga from Monk's Corner, and it's like, yeah, I'm going at the ditties. I'm going to the people that's way, because now it's like when you get to a certain position, it's like, why am I shitting on this new young artist coming out of Atlanta for all this?

1:31:12Like, why? Like, these are just young brothers and sisters trying to make it. I'm not supposed to like their music now. And that was something I even saw a lot of older personalities do. I used to listen to them, and you could see where they got, they turned into curmudgeons. And they didn't, time had changed, and they didn't like the way times were changing. So you either evolve or die. So to me, if I ever get to the point where I'm really sick of this shit like this, I just won't do it no more. I'm not going to be on the radio shitting on Soulja Boy. Why? And I used to hear that. I heard a whole OG generation of personalities acting like Soulja Boy was the worst thing that ever happened.

1:31:49And that didn't make any sense to me because I'm like, you're not supposed to like that. You're 40, almost 50 years old. So if you're going to be in the space, let them cook. and so it's like for me it's like I don't need to be that person no more I'd rather go piss off the president now piss off the president you know what I'm saying that's the new book piss off the president I got like two other things I asked you off camera but one of them is that the late night thing that you spoke of obviously Art Sonia Hall the influence we see you on the Daily Show it feels like a natural thing man I love doing the Daily Show what's the deal I mean you know I salute the Comedy Central I have my own show with Comedy Central The God's Honest Truth then we change it to the hell of a week.

1:32:30And I mean, it was a cool show. You know, like a lot of the stuff that we talked about on the show was aging well. I just put up a clip of it over the weekend about, you know, denazification, right? And how a lot of times we have a lot of these conversations about, oh, this is 19, we're going back to 1940s Germany. And, you know, listen, there was a lot of death. There was a lot of loss. But the Nazis ultimately lost. I think we need to keep that in perspective. And when they lost, there was a denazification of the whole Germany. Like we're going to get to a point in America where that's going to happen because, you know, whenever you have an anti-democratic political movement, you're going to get pushback culturally, legally, and institutionally.

1:33:10It's just the natural thing. So there's going to be a demagrification of America. So a lot of the stuff we did on that show, it aged well, but I mean, it just, it didn't do well enough to stay on the air. So, you know, you get, you get two seasons of it and you move on, but they liked me in that space. And so when it came, when The Daily Show was rotating hosts after Trevor Noah left, they brought me in to be a guest host. And yeah, it was just one of those things. Like, it just fit like a glove, man. Like, that's a well-oiled machine over there at The Daily Show. Like, you really got to be whack to not have success at The Daily Show.

1:33:46No, seriously. It's literally like probably playing for the Patriots in the 90s, early 2000s, or like playing for the Bulls in the 90s. It's just a system that if you got talent, just go in there and be a part of the system. And I can go in there with different ideas, different POV. They might have been listening to me on a podcast or Breakfast Club heard me say something and say, yo, let's expound on that. And like literally I can go in there in a day and come out with one of those monologues because, you know, the writing team over there is so ill. You know, I got my own ideas. I write myself as well.

1:34:24and it's just yeah I love the Daily Show I love what they do over there when Trump had that tweet about you did that impact you in any way? like did you feel external pressure or people reaching out or you know I mean it's just like anything else you wake up you know you see a bunch of text messages you don't quite know what's going on because you literally you're just you're just waking up and then it's cause the president of the United States of America you're like oh shit and then you take a deep breath and you're like is this what you It's what you're here for. It's what you signed up for.

1:34:54So it didn't impact you in any way? Not that I know of, you know what I mean? But, like, I mean, that's such a good point because there are a lot of things, especially when you're... Forget anything involved in hip-hop. Like, anything that can happen from that is nothing I've never seen before. Y 'all, you've seen me get punched in the back of the head on video and running down the street. Like, you've seen... Like, I've been coming out of the pharmacy in New York and people try to attack me. Like, you see stuff like that back in the day. but those different conversations those political conversations are even coming to the defense of people who may be getting you know attacked yeah you'll see that show up in in the real world like I I remember there was one incident there was one incident in particular I'll tell y 'all off air but yeah there was there was like some real what?

1:35:45what you mean I can't get house insurance? oh you told me about that I told you I told you I can't get house insurance what like that's crazy yo this shit is real rendered that's but that that's you know when you when you have certain conversations and you know you come to the defense of certain things like yeah shit like that is gonna happen so I don't even know yeah whatever I'll tell Troy off it I don't I don't wanna get nobody no ideas please yeah alright my brother well thank you man thank you for having me I appreciate you, my guy. Yes, sir. I'm glad we got a chance to do it. Like I said, we've known each other for a long time.

1:36:23A long time. Great conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anything you want to tell the audience before we finish? Yeah, make sure you check out The Breakfast Club on Netflix, man. Go to Netflix. Set your reminders. You know, you're still going to see clips on social media. You're still going to see clips on YouTube. But if you want to see a lot of those full conversations, you're going to have to, you know, go on Netflix. And we're going to see what happens. Like, we're the first, you know, we're the first up the bat. us and the Joe and Jada's and I see Rich Paul and Max Kellerman on there now. Rory Amal.

1:36:53Ballstool got some podcasts over there. iHeart got some over there. Spotify got some over there. We just gonna see what happens. We don't know if something's gonna work or not. I think that we've got enough cachet that if things don't go right, we'll be okay. I think you'll be fine. It's been tested, right? You went from Revolt. Y 'all moved around. That people stayed. Yeah, we've seen it before. I mean, even look at what Joe Rogan did with Spotify. Joe Rogan went to Spotify. He was behind a paywall. You know, he still had 10 million people, you know, watching him every month, right? But then, you know, he came from, Spotify realized, like, that wasn't a good model for them to be behind the paywall with the video and everything else.

1:37:37And so they decided to go wide again. And I don't think Joe Rogan skipped a beat. Yeah. I don't think so anyway. All right, y 'all. It's been real. We see you guys next week. Peace. Peace. It seems like just yesterday that the Two Guys Five Rings podcast was in Paris for the Olympics. And now we're heading to Milan for the 2026 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. And we'll join athletes from 93 countries as Two Guys Five Rings hits the Italian Alps for the 2026 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Did we mention it's free? Search Two Guys Five Rings and listen now.

1:38:19Black history lives in our stories, our culture, and the conversations we still have in today. This Black History Month, the podcast I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either, digs into the moments, perspectives, and experiences that don't always make the textbook. Let me tell you about Garrett Morgan. Bruh had to pretend he didn't even exist just to sell his own invention. Listen to I Didn't Know. Maybe you didn't either. From the Black Effect Podcast Network, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or simply wherever you get your podcasts. I didn't know.

1:38:561969. Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. And at Morehouse College, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees, including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in Black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. Listen to The A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. On a recent episode, I sat down with Nick Jonas, singer, songwriter, actor, and global superstar.

1:39:36I went blank. I hit a bad note, then I couldn't kind of recover. And I built up this idea that music and being a musician was my whole identity. I had to sort of relearn who I was if you took this thing away. Who am I? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.