Kirk Franklin Exposes the Truth About Gospel Music, Record Deals & the Black Church w/ Norman Gyamfi

27:24You know what I mean? So as an indie label, I know what I need to survive. And I can say, yeah, for real, the artists need to be able to really eat. They need to be able to really see the benefits of the hard work they're doing. He's running around all day promoting his single, his podcast, these things. He should have ownership in that. You know, where the traditional deal is an artist has, they own 15 % of this masterwork they created. And they took this loan, essentially,$85 ,000 to do this. Their life's work. Put out their first album. It does amazing. The label's making millions of dollars.

28:03They're not going to redo the deal for you. They're not going to come back and give you a bonus. You agreed to it, so you pay back everything you gave us off the 15 % royalty that I've given you, and I'm going to keep 85 % of every dollar that we made. And then once your 15 % has recouped, I'll give you your royalties. And that's on something you created all yourself, and they just gave you the money to do it. I just didn't think that was fair. So, Kurt, when did you—it's similar because, obviously—so, okay. you and YG are on opposite sides of the spectrum in life, right? And music. Theoretically.

28:43Right? I don't know YG personally. I don't speak to his spirituality, but theoretically. Good guy, but I'm just saying when somebody looks at YG. I know him. I know him well. We black men. But the reason why I say that is because, you know, we had a conversation with YG and he was saying that when he signed his first record deal, it was five albums for$25 ,000. That makes sense. And pretty much he didn't know what he was getting himself into. And he made mistakes and he learned the business and he realized that he was in a bad deal. You said that you was in a bad deal, right? Yes. When did you realize that you were in a bad deal?

29:18Well, and I also want to be able to

29:24acknowledge it in a space that is that I signed, I signed the deal. so it wasn't forced upon me i signed a deal that was not the most beneficial for me you know and and and i've had to learn how to phrase it that way because um sometimes it has been weaponized against me even though it's truth that i that 100 of my publishing was not given to me until uh almost 20 years into my career so you know and that's and that is very unfortunate That's very unfortunate. So it was me understanding and realizing as I continued to matriculate in the space that the information that I was not privy to at the very beginning, other artists and other situations is because what started to happening again was also just the advent of independent individuals, people that were doing it on their own and people that were doing on their own social media and social platforms gave them a louder voice.

30:27And so what started to happen is that the information that was light years away from us getting, now there are artists that are now giving you the information themselves. And as you see younger artists that are now more empowered and now have more of the tools to be able to be strategic in the navigation of their own future, you realize that you need to make some major paradigmatic changes, right? And so in that, you start to have these divine cosmic collisions that I give you the information and the resources. One of the first individuals that I became blessed with that really became a great enlightenment for me was an individual by the name of Ron Hill.

31:10Ron Hill was an individual that interned with me when he was his senior in college. And this was his space. This was his major. And so he equipped me with the information that I did not have. And he had the skill set like he's a he he is a walking master class like this individual, like E.J. Gaines, like Phil Thornton. And these are the men of color that that are that are kind of like the wonder kinds that he's that he's pulled together. Right. And so with that, you are now able to have all of this, all of this wisdom and information that you're able to tap into. And so these were men that I also found in different parts of my journey getting here as well.

31:52So the more I understood what I did not have and the more I was being given the opportunity to understand what I could have just with a couple little small changes, just some small changes. but those small changes, the value in them has been humbling and overwhelming, and I can't even begin to quantify what it's been for me. It's been a miraculous journey. I was thinking about, I remember when you came on the scene in the 90s, and this is like when TRL and the other thing and Rap City was a thing, and they were showing your videos. Yeah. I'm thinking to myself, this guy's made it to raps. How is this possible?

32:37Beating people on the countdowns. And I'm like, that was a CD era, right? So you're making money in CDs. I'm sure you have a bunch of platinum records. I mean, countless. And then music changes. Yes. And it's now a streaming era. Yeah. Not really your expertise, I would assume. Yeah. You are probably familiar with this space. How do you navigate the streaming era coming from an artist who was prominent and thrived in a different era of music? Yeah, I mean, gospel lag, like many genres. I mean, like many different genres of music at that time. Gospel remained primarily physical for quite some time.

33:17I think that changed in the past three to five years. When I came into the space, it's something I noticed. They were, you know, you would have artists post, don't go on Apple Music, don't go on Spotify, buy my, you know, actually download, actually buy. And what they were fighting was a tide that was going to overwhelm them. I think, you know, one of the main things I focused on was embracing change because the change was coming. It was inevitable. It's like attempting to stop people from using AI now. Like music people are really anti-AI now. The change is inevitable. So either you're going to figure out a way to adapt to change or the change is going to move you out of the way.

33:56I remember when everybody used to have a Kodak camera. Now I know everybody uses their iPhone. You know, and, you know, the same company also disrupted music. iTunes is the way, the only way to purchase music now. One of the sole ways to purchase music now was not created by the billion dollar record labels. It was created by a tech company in Silicon Valley because disruption is going to happen. Now you can adapt to it or you can think that you're going to stop it. You're not going to stop convenience. We're in America. People love convenience. It's no different than when they were trying to stop Uber from happening or DoorDash or Airbnb.

34:32Imagine telling some people 20 years ago, you're going to have random strangers living in your house when you're not there. You're going to get in the car with some guy you never met before. He's going to take you to your next location. Imagine this. He's going to pick up your McDonald's and drop it off to you at 2 o 'clock in the morning. You're actually going to let strangers give them your address, come to your house, and give you your food. You don't know if they spit in that. That's what he's going to say. That's what he's going to say. You know what I mean? Like, disruption and convenience are things that we're always going to prioritize as Americans because that's the type of environment we foster.

35:08Now, unless there's some sociophysiological change amongst us, which I don't see happening, convenience is the thing we prioritize. And so when it came to music, it's easier for me to just stream than it is for me to go to Walmart, buy your CD, have a CD player, put it in my car, then listen to it. When I have to do that for every single artist, instead of just putting you all on one playlist, picking my favorite song and listening to it. So I prioritized streaming when I came into the space. I was the guy that actually figured out what the streaming record was in gospel. I went through all the charts for like the past 30 years to put that together with my guy, Phil Thornton.

35:48And shout out to the guys that Kirk mentioned. We all have come together. We're one company. They all work at Insignia. They're the C-level executive team that does what Kirk is talking about. We each sit down in every division and we figure out how the best way to monetize what Kirk is doing, what Mav is doing, what the artists like Ty Galbraith, Chandler Moore, Naomi Rain are doing. And what that gives us a leg up on is if you look at the charts, it's indicative. If you look at the gospel charts, you'll see that primarily seven of the top 10 records are released by Tribal or something we worked on.

36:22You keep going down further than that, I think it's 16 out of the top 20. It's because if you don't embrace change, change is going to run you over. How do you feel about the current state of gospel music? Personally, I'm worried. The main thing me and this guy discuss all day is how do we, I'm going to say this for him. After the BET Awards, there was a lot of conversation. The first question this man asked us at dinner was, how do we take this opportunity and make it something that's for the entire genre? And the problem with that is the KPIs that major mainstream institutions look at, many gospel artists don't feel are important.

37:08And as long as you don't position yourself in a manner to where you're attractive to the very thing that can broaden the message that we all want to reach everyone, you have to do certain things. You got to become all things to all men to win some. So if you need to be fly, if you need to be able to articulate in a certain conversation, you need to be able to sit down and have a conversation with you guys and be able to articulate and understand business to push forward the gospel, then be ready to do that. Not being prepared for that conversation to me is no different than when they buried their talents in the Bible.

37:46That's good. You know what I mean? That's how I see it. So when I look at the state of gospel music, I look at a lot of people whining and complaining about something they haven't prepared for. And can I just jump in and say that the whining and complaining also is the fatigue of not being able to have the oxygen reach everyone. Yeah. That's what a lot of it is also. See, the blessing and benefit and the challenge of my career is that it has allowed me to have access. I've been blessed to have access with great minds and with spaces that challenge my thinking, challenge me to want to be able to push forward and have engaging opportunities and conversations to not only enlighten, but also be enlightened.

38:33Where most individuals in my space, their ecosystem is the black church, it's the black conferences, the black events, it's the black spaces where a lot of the information never gets to that level. And so when you find out that there are other conversations that are happening that you're not privy to, that in itself can breed frustration. And so I think that it is my passion to want to be a conduit, to try to be a catalyst, to get that information, just to get this. But even if it only impacts one or two, at least we've been able to try to do as much as we can to deposit and invest in individuals that are able to keep the narrative going.

39:15Yeah, it's important. I asked the CD question because I was going to church every Sunday and I was sitting in the sound, a part of sound ministry, and I'm making CDs. It's like 2015. I'm like, they don't know that people don't listen to CDs. But every Sunday I'm making the CDs. And so it brings me to the point where I'm like, if the church doesn't get younger, where does it go? Yeah, it does. And so when I'm thinking about the numbers that you said, right, from the 90s, I don't disagree with you. There was a large percentage of people that identified as Christian and went to church to where we're at today, those numbers, I mean, if you're not declining, I mean, if you're not inclining.

39:51You're declining. You're declining. So my question is like, how do we, the state of the, I guess, the black church, how do we increase the youth participation in it? Paul, can I say something about that? Because I don't know if that's entirely true. For me, from the outside looking in, it looks like there's more young people that's in, that it feels like a renaissance as far as from what I see. Now it is. From what I see. Like I said, I'm on the outside looking in. But like, even like spiritual word, it's not really a Christian-based thing, but it started, that's a long story. But long story short.

40:26Well, I'm like, wait, hold on. No, but that's how it started. That's how it started, though. Like now, Mike, that's what started. So spiritual word, you know spiritual word? The page. So spiritual word is a big social media platform. Yeah, they have millions of followers. if you watch their content, it's not Christian based at all. But every now and then they'll throw a sermon in, they'll throw some stuff. So I spoke to the owner before and I'm like, your name is Spiritual Word, but you're not really posting anything spiritually. And he was just saying like, he started it as a Christian based platform.

40:57It wasn't really getting traction. They changed it to Shade Room, but every now and then he tries to, but long story short, I think that there's a lot of young people that I see that are now becoming religious, embracing that on social media, at least that's what it looks like. They're spiritual. That's the thing. There you go. I think that's the difference. There you go. I'm talking about the people, like people who identify as spiritual. I'm talking about the spiritual. Right, the people that are going, like the youth, like I was a teacher for 15 years. Church wasn't even something that students, it's not even a place that they were going.

41:32And I was in the community that I was teaching. I was going to church there and I never saw any of my students. I'm like, the church is two blocks away. Nobody's going. And then it hit me. I'm like, wait, looking in New York City, I'm like, are people bringing their children to church, right? You used to have to go with your grandma. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Then your mom stopped going, so you stopped going. Yeah. How do we reverse that cycle, though? Yeah. One of the key things, and this is to kind of come to what you're saying, what you see and what you feel and what you notice is what you see across the gospel Christian music space is, and I talk to Kirk about this a lot, the struggle that existed in the 80s and the 90s that made our grandma make us go to church, I'm not saying it doesn't exist anymore, but the way it exists is different.

42:20When you think about Kirk Franklin's daughter or my, I have an 18 year old and you guys now, you're talking about young African-American men who likely are millionaires. The way we raise our children is totally different and how we came up. And so what we sought from the black church in the 80s and the 90s isn't the same thing my daughter's going to seek from church. They're seeking a different experience. And when you seek that different experience, it's a different environment. And so a lot of times now you have young African-American kids that go to what we would consider evangelical white church because they want to hear a different style of music.

43:02That's where their friends go. That's who they went to college with. That's who they're working with. So no, they're not going to go to the Baptist church around the corner. They're going to the mega church over here because everybody likes the place they can't get in. Even churches. Or watch it online. Or watch it online. The thing that happened with COVID is that black churches were disproportionately unprepared for streaming. Yeah, buddy. When it came time to stream, we are experiential people. So we have cameras when they believe is they weren't good. They was making CDs still in 2020. Yeah, buddy.

43:40So they was making CDs and selling the pastor's sermon. Every mega, the evangelical white church, they were prepared. They were streaming already. They had huge numbers already. And that's why you saw the advent of Mike Todd, Pastor Mike Todd. And that's why his church blew up. It's because he was one of the few black pastors at the time that was tapped in and ready to go. and Maverick City at the time. They were one of the only groups still making music. They grew up at the time. They became the worship team for all of America. And so much like anything else, once streaming was necessary, then everybody's trying to catch up.

44:16Everybody's trying to get there. One of the foundations of my company was we were doing almost 700 services for churches from my house every Sunday during COVID. Because churches, they didn't know how to stream it. and then at that point people started to record early because you had to be live and then Facebook was crashing YouTube was crashing you had to have a way to have a redundancy and a lot of churches just didn't have or could afford to set that up last minute so what we're talking about and how when you talk about things are growing it's growing it's just not growing in the black church well and then I also want to jump in and say if you don't mind it's growing but it is not growing in the traditional

45:02monotheistic ideal that we were raised in. It is very much Jesus adjacent. It's very much - What's that mean? Meaning that you have now younger Christians that don't believe in Jesus and crystals. That it's both and now, where there is this pluralistic ideal that has permeated Western Christianity in the younger generation. And a lot of these churches that they go to are almost like Christian spas. The Christian spas, you're going to get your neck rubbed. You're going to feel good. You're going to get your feet done. You're going to get your head done. You know, everything is about the betterment.

45:43It's almost like spiritual TED Talks. So, so, so, so it's not challenging people. And so you got to remember, you know, man, think about gospel music. God's music talked about the cross, talked about the blood of Jesus and talked about, you know, you know, God, forgive me for my sins. He's able. Yeah, he's able. I mean, you talk to a younger generation. What's sin? What's sin? Sin is a manmade construct to a lot of these individuals. And so this is not to demonize the next generation. I'm saying that these things begin to also filter down to the music. It's going to impact the music. When you are a gangster rapper, it's hard to still rap like that.

46:21when you move to Brentwood. It's easy to rap like that when you still live in Compton. But when you move, when you move to Beverly Hills, it's going to affect your music. It's going to affect your, it's going to affect the fire of your lyrica content. And what has happened is, is that American culture has moved from the, and I can't say, I humbly can't say all of it is bad. It's because I think a lot of what we were

46:48grouped into a lot of, or indoctrinated into was also dogma. It was also the residue of colonialism, you know, and the residue of Puritanism. And because that's what, those are the tenets of Western Christianity. Western Christianity, the tenets are colonialism and Puritanism. And so those did not really speak to the need. And slavery. Well, that is the birth of colonialism and Puritanism. You know what I'm saying? It's like the mama of colonialism and the daddy Puritanism birthed slavery. Right. And so we understand that, that, that, that, that Western Christian, Western Christianity's role in that space.

47:30And even what gospel music was at the time was what, how I got over, Lord help me to get through, Lord keep me strong. And so now that we're seeing people being able to be elevated from these spaces, it's going to impact the music. And it's also going to impact their idea of who God is. good well let me ask you this you guys spoke about tech a lot another one of our friends Timbaland he got a lot of heat recently you saw that we're working with him on something okay he signed not that but he signed an AI artist yeah and people were very disappointed they were let down the artist said that he was betraying the art of music and that some people even went as far to say that this is demonic I saw what is your thoughts on AI's role in music?

48:21Anything can be used for the good of God. Anything. I believe that. I don't believe anything under the sun cannot be used for the benefit of God. So whether that's AI, whether that's whatever, I mean, there's certain things that are, you know, people, someone said, well, what about porn? Well, sex was created by God to be in the confines of marriage. So I'm just kind of come to that point to say everything has a purpose that God intended for. As it pertains to Timberland overall, I'm going to stick to what I said earlier. You can fight the tide all you want. The tide is going to overwhelm. Will people decide that they don't like to listen to an AI-generated artist?

49:04We don't know yet. It's like being early to anything, right? If you talk about being early in the streaming, people say, I'll never download Spotify. I'll never download Apple Music. The artists don't get the money. They're paying pennies on the dollar. Now you couldn't find a CD if you wanted one. You know what I mean? So to me, I believe Timberlake's early. I believe he's maybe too early. I think he's going to be the one that bears the breadth of the frustration that artists exist in. Because you're saying basically you're taking publishing, you're taking royalties, and you're giving them all to the person that creates this AI entity.

49:37But I believe that's where music will go. when you talk about 10, 20 years from now, I do believe many artists will simply be AI creations from the minds of the Kirk Franklins of the world, from the minds of the Drakes of the world, from the DJ Khaled's of the world, from the whatever, because it's just going to be more convenient. I don't got to get a session together. I don't got to pay for studio time. I don't got to pay producers. Whenever you can find a throughput to cheaper and higher ROI, you cannot fight the tide of efficiency. People are not going to do something that is inefficient for the feeling of it.

50:15Even if they say that they will on camera, behind the scenes they're going to figure out a way to do it and mask it under some different umbrella. And I've already heard and had those conversations currently. So 10, 20 years from now, I believe a lot of music will be AI, mood-driven. Imagine you being able to pick up your phone, and based on how you're feeling, it creates music to make you feel and I'm getting ready to go to the club boom you got exactly what you want I'm getting ready to go to church boom you got exactly what you want my wife's about to have a baby boom you got exactly what you want I need to get my baby to bed imagine having the most soothing playlist ever to get your baby to bed no one's gonna fight that one thing that I can say to it let me just give just a little let me just give just a little small twist if you don't mind in my time in my book you know it's because in the conversation, I'm the OG at the table, right?

51:07I'm 87 years old, right? I remember the advent of the conversation of cloning. And I remember how big, I think you know where I'm going. And it was a big conversation. And people had a lot of anxiety about cloning. You didn't know where it was going. One thing that I think that you can never, ever duplicate, and I think that the younger generation continue to speak a lot about this as well, is authenticity. One thing that you will not be able to just manipulate is authentic voices is because no matter how much information and technology continues to grow, we are still with our species, given these these these these interesting dynamics of emotions and affections that we still look for authentic voices to speak into.

51:50And I believe that that that storytellers, even though the stories may be told different, there still has to be a certain level of authenticity to the story that I believe that only our species can deliver. And that's why I believe that you didn't see much of cloning continue to advance is because people still want to be able to hold in in a time where the survival of our species is already so questionable with the political tension that we see globally. You know, when we see this geopolitical tension that we're living in right now, people are begging and pulling for something that is foundational, something that is rooted in something that they can.

52:29And it's almost like one of my favorite movies is Inception. And I love the fact that in Inception, he was able to go into these different levels of these unrealities, but he needed something to remind him of the truth, right? And so he needed that spinner. Yeah, yeah, just to remind him of truth. So as much as technology and information and as humans that we advance, I believe that one thing about art and the reason why real art is because you, You were even talking about, think about as much as technology information has continued to grow, a Picasso still has its value. Is that because there's something authentic about the narrative of where this individual was when he painted it?

53:13And so I think that music and storytellers are still going to have a place. We're going to find these ebbs and flows of AI and different levels of technology. But I'm still comfortable that when people have pain, they're going to need a real voice to speak to that pain. You bring up a good point in terms of AI and music. But I want to know your thoughts about AI in the church. Because we've seen agentic agents that are now pastors. We've seen pastors who use AI to help create sermon. That's a complete shift, right? When we're talking about, obviously, the story of the Bible, interpretation of it, but the authenticity of the actual person who's delivering the message.

53:57do you see that becoming disruptive AI inside of the actual church? I still believe that, that, that as we continue to try to push and see how far these barriers can go or these boundaries can go, I do believe that there still will be a ceiling that will happen in the hearts and minds of individuals, that they will still find a space that they still want to be able to. It's like, for example, you know, and, and, And I say this with great humility, great, great, great, greatfulness. Ten, ten years ago, 15 years ago, would you ever thought that people would have stayed up to 12 and one o 'clock in the morning to hear a 55 year old gospel artist and a black award show?

54:43Only if his name was Kurt Frank. Well, forget him. mean by that. I'm just saying that it still says that for individuals, there's still something about voices that they still want to be able to hear and hold on to. And so even though there's a myriad of voices that have advanced far beyond Kirk Franklin, there's still something by the grace of God, I'm very grateful. I don't know why, but it's still something that whatever the music that God trusted to alone me still anchors people, some people. And so I believe that no matter how much we try to curate these ideals outside of humans, people are still going to want that pastor, that social leader, that artist, that storyteller to be the one to say, I'm telling this because I lived it.

55:31This came from me being in prison. This came from me being in jail. This came from me having a cancer scare. And so I am aware, but I'm not afraid. I only ask that because it goes back to the first question of if there's less people actually going to the institution of the church, right? And they're getting more influence. Then we're building new churches. We're building new churches. This is church now. Absolutely. This is church. The church is a gathering of believers. There you go. There you go. I think we'll have a unique concept on it. I think you're at the Den of Kings. Den of Kings Church.

56:08Yeah. What we're talking about is two things, and I don't want to conflate them, is I don't think you'll ever eliminate actual people making music. I don't think we'll eliminate it. I do believe there will be AI artists. It's no different. I used to work in banking, and I remember when I first started working in banking, this is probably, I'm aging, I'm 40 years old. I was 20 years ago, basically. I was young. I was in college. I was one of the personal bankers. And they're talking about how people, no matter what's happening in online banking, people will always want to come into the bank to meet with somebody and have a conversation.

56:41Okay, when's the last time any of us in here have been inside a bank? The point I'm making is people still go inside the bank. I'm not saying anything will be eliminated, but the way we do it will drastically change. All of us have a bank app on our phone right now. In fact, when I started the bank, that was foreign. People came into the bank to learn how to download the app, log in. I don't want to put my password in there. We relax all of that for convenience. And that's why the only way I see technology slowing down and changing our way of life is if we decide philosophically that convenience isn't the thing that drives how we spend our money.

57:19And that's where I lean in. Exactly that, that, that, that, that little crack of light that he just said is I believe that problems, challenges, sickness, struggles, issues are things that will force individuals to respond differently at different moments in time is because we are wired to. Is that one thing that we cannot do is we cannot unwire the human species and our experiences. Well, Kurt, let me ask you this. As far as you talked about off camera, you know, sometimes it's difficult when you're looked at a certain way, right? Like if you're a regular R &B artist or a rapper or, you know, you don't have the same pressures as somebody who's looked at as a man of God.

58:03Yeah. You're held to a higher standard. Yeah. Unfortunately.

58:11Fortunate and unfortunately. Both. I think so. I would love to hear the fortunate. I mean, the fortunate part of it is that people honor you in a way that they don't honor certain artists when they come in here. There are certain artists that come in here. They have a, not to speak for y 'all, there's a certain reverence for you because you maintain a standard of living. Now, it's not to say you're perfect, but it's fortunate also because God sees it. That's one. But two, there's a respect that, you know, they're not in here not to say you got to smoke. they wouldn't be in here just smoking blunts when you come in.

58:47They're not going to be in here just with liquor. There's a reverence and respect. Not to say those things are wrong. There's just a reverence and respect. That's why I'm being fortunate and unfortunate. There's a tie between like I said, when I heard your voice I'm like, oh my God, I've heard that voice so many times. There's a connection in the home, there's a connection in the church, and there's a connection in real life. So when people see you there's just a level of automatic respect. Outside of it, yes, that's the OG, but it's like, no, that's a man of God. Like, no, he's not Jesus Christ, but he's a follower of Jesus Christ.

59:17And I have found it. I have found I have not found it in my career and in my lifetime to be fortunate. Well, that's what I was going to say. I want to get that. I know he's going to say why not, but that's why. Yeah. And I have not found it beneficial for even those that also serve in that role as well. I think that it is the greatest misnomer of our human experience. Yes, it's once again going back to the very much of the iconoclastic ideals, you know. I'm not Catholic, and I know that there are beautiful people, there are beautiful humans on this planet that subscribe to Catholic ideals. But when you look at the corruption that has happened historically in Catholicism for centuries, for millennia, and the Roman Catholic Church to still maintain its power and influence on the globe, It is because humans still want to hold on to, they still need an idea of a tangible individual to usher them into the presence of God because they do not feel worthy enough.

1:00:21That in itself is problematic on so many levels. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that if you respond to me different than you do, Lil Wayne, I'm saying I find that extremely problematic. It's because God doesn't. God does not view me different than little Wayne. And so those are the things that I continue to be committed to deconstruct is because it's problematic for the person that you do it to. And it's problematic for the person that you do it against. Well, on that, that's my soapbox. I'm sorry. That was, that was, that was insightful. The Jamaica situation, right? These are people that are Christians.

1:01:02So how does that play? Because that's a whole different conversation of like, okay, it's one thing for people to judge you a certain way because, but it's like now you got religious people. Yes. Yes. Who that's even more because you don't, you don't want to offend somebody. Yes. And that's the same religion as you. Yes. So how did that impact you? Well, and I also think that it reveals even this conversation because it wasn't all Jamaicans. It was some Jamaicans, but there were other Jamaicans that would, like if you were into the comment section. they were having their own arguments about it.

1:01:37There was one Jamaican that said, y 'all wanted him to have a suit on and pass out. And they said, and you know our healthcare system down here sucks. You know what I'm saying? And I thought that was hilarious. But once again, I think that it's the tension because dogma has led the narrative for our species on the planet of how we process God and what we think is godly. And so what I have to do is I have to understand those nuances. I can't fight them. I have to pick and choose when I fight them. I have to pick and choose when I speak against them. And I have to pick and choose when it's time to acquiesce to that reality.

1:02:13Because there is a reality that I exist in that I understand. That's the construct of a lot of individuals that subscribe to monotheistic ideals. And so because of that, I must digress in moments, acquiesce to the reality of that and try to maneuver the best that I can with truth and authenticity. I think to your point, just to add, is that most often we read the Bible, but we don't comprehend it. You know, the same people, they're ignoring that David danced out of his clothes. They just ignore that whole entire scripture. He literally danced out of his clothes. And was an adulterer at the same time.

1:02:47And a murderer. He killed his best friend, took his wife, had a kid with her. It's better than any Real Housewives you have watched. But this is the man after God's own heart. Yes. That's what he was. Moses the murderer was the one that God used. But we don't say Moses the murderer, but Moses was a murderer. And this is the key to all of this. When you talk about believers disagreeing, we all want to see ourselves in the Bible as the heroes. Right? When people look at the Bible, everybody wants to be David or Joseph or Jonah or Paul. We would more likely be the people when the woman got caught in the act of adultery, holding the stones ready to stone her.

1:03:31That's good. That's who we are. That's who we are as believers now. We have cancer. At our core. At our core. We are cancer culture. I'm more saved than you. I'm not as bad as you. So I'm not having pride and being a prideful person that has to whatever is as bad as being as bad as any other sin. And if we look at it, it's also if we look at it, it is really the greater. I mean, there's not a greater. But if you look at how much it returns in Scripture, pride is the one. Pride is one. But, you know, growing up in church, if you were sleeping, having sex full marriage, you was going, you know, that's it's something like you.

1:04:11felt like that's all God cared about. You know what I'm saying? It's who you were smashing in the youth choir. It's a thin line, but okay. It is a thin line, Trent. Because one group of people say like, yeah, you can't be judgmental. Everybody, nobody's perfect. Everybody sins. He without sin cast the first stone. All of that. But that kind of does lead to just doing anything and just saying, well, you know, God knows my heart. God knows my heart, people. They just do anything.

1:04:45I'm so ready to respond. Go ahead, Ken. No, no, no. I'm quick and I'm going to give. As quick as I'm going to pass it straight to you. All right. As quick as I'm going to pass it straight to you. It's not. That's not it. So people often believe if you don't slap people with sin, that they are going to then trample on grace. Yes. They're going to trample on grace. We've talked. Yes. There you go. It's clear. You give people grace and truth. Yes. Okay. It's having sex outside of marriage or fornication sin. Yes. Is it difficult to stay away from? Yes. It's both and. It's both and. And to say that God knows my heart, he does.

1:05:32And that's a good and a bad thing. God knows whether you believe in him truly or you don't. So when you say God knows your heart, yeah, he does. That's what I always tell someone. And at the same time, you should judge people. You should tell them the truth. You should say to your homeboy, hey, bro, you got to stop smashing all them girls. But can I tell my homeboy I understand why he's smashing all those girls? Yes. And that's the part that gets missed is that when you go to church often, yeah, you hear you shouldn't do that. But you don't hear the empathy behind. I understand why. And here is how.

1:06:03Here are how and ways you cannot do that. That's the part that's missing. And please let me jump in and say this. The reason why on this planet, the Protestant faith has so many different denominations is because of that issue right there. It's because people need to control the narrative of the process of other humans. So the Methodists will say, OK, you guys are trying to take advantage. And so from that, then you get the Pentecostals and then the Pentecostals say, well, you got to live holy. OK, well, yeah, but you're going to live holy on the Sabbath. So you get the Sabbath Pentecostals. It's like when you look at Protestant, when you look at the Protestant faith in America, no other branch of faith has so many denominations like the monotheistic ideal of Christianity.

1:06:49That's problematic. You've got Pentecostal. You've got Church of God in Christ. You've got Apostolic. You've got PAW, which is probably the same thing. You've got Methodist. You've got Lutheran. You've got Baptist. You've got Missionary Baptist. I mean, so many branches. And it was all birthed out of this idea. Okay, well, y 'all are taking advantage of this. Well, y 'all don't do this enough. And it becomes so overwhelming that guess what people do? Now, here we are, 25 years later, 34 % of people have gone to church. That's what's happened. Or non-denominational. Well, even non-denominational, once again, some of that is now becoming country clubs, TED Talks, you're becoming all these other frameworks.

1:07:25It really is. Non-denomination is a reaction to all of the denomination. It's a denomination in and of itself. Beautifully said. It's like atheism is a reaction to belief in God. Nobody argues with you if you want to go drink 1492 at your club. 1942. I say that, that means I don't know. You just saw it. We don't know it. What did I just call it? My point exactly. And guess what? If you wanted to drink 1492, I would not argue with you. I would allow you to drink whatever nasty drink you want to drink. It's because there is no debate outside of this space because people allow you to be you. But when you come here, we think that we've got to hold people to a standard that God does not even hold us to.

1:08:09And it's becoming overwhelming and we're missing people with the great news and the simple. Because here's the simple message, Kings. God made man. Man rejected God. And God won't stop until he wins man back. Amen. Amen. It's that simple. Amen. Anything else is problematic. Norman Kirk, we must do this again as we wrap. I don't want to rap. I want to, come on, give me some more. Give me two more. Give me two more, man. I love the, I love the platform. I'm super fans. Give me two more. Can we do two more? I ain't got nothing to do. You got my man all sharp coming up here. Come on, man. Let us, give us some more.

1:08:48He was on point. I was going to actually go, I mean, we can talk about do it again before we go, but I was going to talk about that prosperity, right? And doing God's work and that, that fine balance, right? They see you achieving success. Why does he have that? Is he really following God? Is he, I mean, look at what he's doing with his money. People are watching that. How do you, I mean, how do you deal with that? Outside of that, from a mental standpoint, because the mental health piece is important too inside the church. How do you manage that? I'll do the mental health part. You do the financial.

1:09:23The prosperity thing, I think the easier way to look at it is this. I've always held disbelief. It's easier to look at it from this Spanish point. I think we all can relate to the thing of a homeless man comes and knocks on your door. He wants$100, right? Or he wants money. And people always say, I don't give homeless people money because I don't know what they're going to do with it. Right? There's this idea as Americans that we have. It's Western. It's very Western. That unless the person does with the money what I intend for them to do with it, I don't want to give it. The truth of the matter is the principle is about a heart issue.

1:10:01It's a heart issue. The truth is we're selfish. And instead of just saying we're selfish, we say, he going to go buy drugs. Where do you get that from? Where do you get the notion from that when you give money to your church, they have to spend it the way you would want them to spend it. The biblical principle is about you giving to God first. That's it. That's it. The biblical principle about giving to the homeless is about giving to charity. Who cares what the homeless man does with the money? The reward for you is that your heart posture is in the right place. So this is how I see prosperity and ministry.

1:10:41They're doing a job. They're making money. God walks on gold. The result of being excellent at anything is generally success. And in America, or in most cultures, success generally leads to wealth. if a pastor is wealthy, it doesn't hurt me, it doesn't hurt anyone, that when someone looks at him, they see, okay, boom. So people ask me all the time. But there's a thing of taking advantage of your congregation. No, there's some people that do. That happens. And there's CEOs that take advantage of their customers. That's true. And no way of business or walk of life is,

1:11:23I don't want to use the term perversion, but perversion exists. Yeah. So there are CEOs that take advantage of people. You had this Sam Blackman fine at FTX. He stole billions of dollars from people. Bernie Madoff was the head of the Nasdaq. He stole billions of dollars from people. Are there pastors that steal from the congregation? Yes. Are there pastors that don't? Yes. Are there CEOs that don't treat their workers right? Yes. Or do people still work there? Yes. So are you going to throw away your iPhone because you don't like the or did you stop getting Ubers because there was Uber culture and they were being mean to women?

1:11:56No, everybody still ordered Ubers today. So what I don't like people's disingenuous approach to how they problem solve anything else. There's bad churches. They're good. They're good churches. There's bad pastors. There's good pastors. There's terrible CEOs. There's good CEOs. And we still we're on a target boycott. Targets earnings have increased quarter over quarter. We're boycotting. I'm just saying that we disagree with something. We say we're against something. It doesn't stand. But we do hold it really tightly against the church. Yes, I'm OK with a pastor being rich, just as I'm OK with a CEO being rich.

1:12:37What I can say, though, is that it also is necessary to continue to teach people that the institution of church and the ones that run these institutions, we cannot model our pursuit of God through them. And I think that those are the constructs that I'm always committed to deconstruct with American culture and with global ideals that are monotheistic is that we've got to get to people. And that was the part of the of even the Reformation. Right. Is that Martin Luther at the time was continuing to try to tell people we can go to God now ourselves. And so that is the narrative that Kirk is so passionate about.

1:13:19I'm passionate about like like I can be on a plane and and and it's a little bit adjacent to this conversation. I could be on a plane, bros. And, you know, I'm blessed to sit in first class and people are getting on the plane. And some people will notice me on the plane. And I've heard people say, oh, I know this plane ain't going to crash now. I'm on the plane. And I'm thinking Negro Christians die. Christians die in plane crashes every day. Hey, people think that because I'm on the plane, the plane can't crash. I've got to fix that. We've got to fix that. The savior complex. Yeah. Amen, bro.

1:13:59It happens all the time. So many times I'm in a store in the mall. Kirk, will you pray for men? I know, Kirk, I know God hear your prayers. And I have to stop constantly. Bro or my sister, I need for you to know. First of all, I'd be more than happy to pray for you. But when I do, please know God hears your prayers just as clear as he does mine. But it is such a constant wiring. That's why it's problematic for me when people hold me to a higher standard. It's because I know what it means intrinsically. I know it means that you don't think you're worthy enough to get to God, but I am. And that pisses me off that we have already created that in individuals.

1:14:38And what also pisses me off is that we have religious leaders that are not joining me and trying to debunk that ideal as well. I think it always been that way. Like there's no bit of ego on the ascension to where you're at now that it wasn't that way. Has it always been that? It has always been a problem for me. It has always been. I I intrinsically has intrinsically have always been uncomfortable. And it has been difficult for me to see the weaponization of leadership in my community through through through the space of the black church in the black community. Yes, I played for a church that was in a neighborhood in Fort Worth where some of the biggest drug kingpins existed in America.

1:15:21In that small black neighborhood existed 32 churches in this one neighborhood, 32 churches. But the biggest drug kingpins, crack cocaine in the 80s, in America existed in, I mean, you can look it up, in Fort Worth, Texas. Some of the biggest kingpins in America lived in Fort Worth, Texas, in this community called Lake Como. 32 churches. But drugs and kingpins were able to exist with no problem. That's a challenge for me. And it was a challenge for me even when I had a Jerry curl. So now going back to the issue of mental health, I believe that religion does contribute to mental health. religion can contribute to the issues of trauma and our people is because if people do not see themselves good enough, how can they become healthy and their finances in their homes and their families and their own mental space?

1:16:17If they feel that they need something to exist outside of them, outside of their creator, to be able to be good individuals, to be able to see themselves as, as valuable is that we need to continue to see church as a hospital and everybody in there, including the man behind the pulpit, is a patient. No one is a doctor. Before we leave, the last question. Given the times that we are in right now, this is something that I even, do you ever lose hope for humanity? We see what happens in Israel and Iran and then Palestine and then Congo and Sudan. It's just like we've been on this earth for thousands of years and still can't figure out how to live together peacefully, right?

1:16:58And it's like after a while, you just say like, it's almost like doomed on a certain level, right? Like it's very depressing where we just keep going through these things year after year after year and people are dying and babies are dying. And it's just like Ukraine, Russia, like given the state of the times that we're in, like what is your thought process and what's the word for the people? Yeah, man, let me say this. First of all, even as you begin to talk, I begin to wail inside because I can be very candid, transparent. I feel you. I feel you deeply, brother. It's because again, being, I'm 55 years old.

1:17:36I mean, I was raised in the space of faith. That's all I know. And so it has always been problematic for me too. I remember September 11th and how that following Sunday, you couldn't, I mean, you would think that Drake was performing at the church because it was standing in line only because people were trying to get in because people were so afraid. And then as that began to wear off, then people began to go, you know, I remember when George Floyd happened, like we all know, and people were so adamant about trying to make change, and then it just begins to go away. I believe that what's going to make a greater change that can be more substantial and more substantive that we can be able to see consistently is that I need the help of other leaders that will push the narrative of our broken humanity and the fact that we are not perfect individuals.

1:18:28And I think that as long as we have that, that as long as we continue to celebrate and push our political leaders like Donald Trump and other individuals that do not reflect any attributes of a Christian character is that we will continue to become victims and slaves to these ongoing problems because these problems have to do with the wickedness of the hearts of the leaders. And until we acknowledge that there is a, that there is a seed given in every human of choice. And when people have the ability to choose evil, we must hold that decision accountable, not with creating other levels of evil, but with the level of unified compassion, unified grace, unified love that we, that, that, that has a uniformity that collectively we say that this is the answer is that this love and grace that they need is the same love and grace that I need.

1:19:26Because he, here's the problem with the arguments of judgment. The arguments of judgment is that people never include themselves in the argument. You are just as guilty as I am because you are just as dirty. Even though you may then shoot somebody, you thought a bad thought. And in the eyes of God, it is just as equal as anybody else. And until we begin to see ourselves as the needy and not the ones that are always having, is that until that problem, until that paradigm shifts, we will for millennia after millennia after millennia have this question and this conversation. I don't know the answer right now.

1:20:00I don't know the when. I don't know the how. But I do know that the tools are there and the answers are there. We just don't respond to it. We don't pick it up. We, we, we, you know, you can, you can create the medicine, but how to get people to take it is the lifelong response of our species of how do we do that? And my simple answer to it is that I don't lose hope in humanity. It reminds me that God is real. As long as sin exists, we'll have death. As long as there's disparity, we're going to have war. And the answer to it all is God alone. And so it gives me hope. You use the perfect examples.

1:20:41I think oftentimes moments, all things work together for the good of those that love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. So a 9-11, there are people that were saved from 9-11. Yeah. When you look at what's happened in Palestine and Israel, there aren't ways that we would have decided to do things to draw people to God, but he knows and he does all. And then the perfect example for me is this. If I had to save the world, I only have one son. I only have one son. If I had to save the world, there's no way that if I could do it any way possible, you got one son. If I could do it any way possible, that I would choose to kill my only son, put him on a cross, send him through the most brutal, embarrassing death you could think of.

1:21:27For all mankind. For all mankind. So if that is how God decided to save the world, I can only imagine the things that we look at as evil or bad and the actual intent of those things can be something good. because when we look at the struggle that Jesus went through, none of us could imagine and say that if my only son went through that, that something good would come up. The only way we know good came up and now is because it's been centuries and the story's been told. The story will be told if some of these things we look at, it's calamity and there could have been some good in it. I honestly like his answer much better than mine.

1:22:04Thank you, brothers. Appreciate the conversation. I appreciate y 'all, man. I'll do it again. Honored. Honored. Thank you so much. Go pick up Do It Again. Go get that. Go get that. Den of Kings, check it out. Go get that. It's on YouTube, Kurt Franklin, and we are so grateful to have people responded to it. It's really dope. I appreciate you. Thank you. You have it, guys. Peace. Man, this was dope, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. An illegal alien from Guatemala charged with raping a child in Massachusetts. An MS-13 gang member from El Salvador accused of murdering a Texas man. A Venezuelan charged with filming and selling child pornography in Michigan.

1:22:44These are just some of the heinous migrant criminals caught because of President Donald J. Trump's leadership. I'm Kristi Noem, the United States Secretary of Homeland Security. Under President Trump, attempted illegal border crossings are at the lowest levels ever recorded. And over 100 ,000 illegal aliens have been arrested. If you are here illegally, you're next. You will be fined nearly$1 ,000 a day, imprisoned and deported. You will never return. But if you register using our CBP Home app and leave now, you could be allowed to return legally. Do what's right. Leave now. Under President Trump, America's laws, border, and families will be protected.

1:23:27Sponsored by the United States Department of Homeland Security. Hey, it's Joel. And Matt from HowToMoney. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, We've got your back. Prices, they're still high. And the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Yeah. Each week, we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:24:00What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:25:04Listen to The Red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.