Culture is built on 'moments of truth'

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1:16This is Eat Sleep Work Repeat. It's a podcast about workplace culture. Hello, I'm Bruce Daisley. Good conversation today. Kevin Green is the Chief People Officer of First Bus and First Group. I met Kevin at an event last year and there were several aspects of the way he talked about culture that made me really want to feature him here. One of the things that we often overlook about culture is the idea that leaders need to set the tone for the culture. They need to set the tone for the organisation. And I really liked how Kevin spoke holistically about thinking of that, thinking of all of the ingredients in that.

1:55What was really impressive, the reason why I wanted to feature him, is that he started the journey thinking about better customer experience, better passenger experience in his instance, by stringing it back and thinking, well, unless we make all of the components of that, the employee experience better then we can't expect the customer experience get better and that is often something that people don't necessarily string together the idea that better happier drivers are going to lead to happier customers there's a lot actually in common between the interview i featured with mark price lord price um about waitrose culture and mark price spoke very explicitly there about how the objective of Waitrose had been to make the employees of Waitrose, the partners in that case, they call them, make them happier.

2:51I've linked to that episode in the show notes because I love that discussion. Kevin says a couple of really, really powerful things. He says, workers, people want to feel part of something. That's especially of interest. I saw some research last year that said that 87 % of frontline workers feel that their company culture isn't meant to apply to them. It's for the management team. It's for the head office. And I think Kevin understands breaking down those barriers and making people feel part of something. It gives a really compelling idea of moments of truth. And that is the day I was chatting to him was the, there were some company awards that night.

3:28And he said, tonight, we're going to be celebrating drivers who went over and above the people who did things for their colleagues. But each time they do those things, to some extent, they're presented with this moment of truth that, you know, maybe they've got to get back to the depot on time. And so if an old passenger is struggling to get on board or maybe if someone's infirm and they wait to see that passenger sit down, that's a moment of truth for them. They have to wrestle with this sort of conflict between their own targets, their own objectives and what's best for customers. And Kevin gives this really compelling insight into how many hundreds of thousands of millions of moments of truth there are every day, every year for the organization, and how you try to think about system thinking if you're going to try and make that experience better.

4:20It's a really, really compelling idea. I love this discussion. This is my discussion with the Chief People Officer of First Group. This is Kevin Green.

4:34Kevin, thank you so much for joining me. I wonder if to kick off, you could introduce who you are and what you do. Yeah. Hi, Bruce. I'm Kevin Green. I'm the Chief People Officer at First Bus. In fact, I've got the wider brief of the whole group now, but I've been doing the First Bus since September 21. So last four and a bit years. Kevin, I met you in an event last year and I was really taken with a couple of the things you said. I love the idea of trying to change the culture of an organization like First Bus, like a big transport organization, because I think it gets into the practicalities of trying to do these things.

5:11We saw some research last year that there's some research from an organization called Work Vivo. And they said that 85 % of frontline workers don't believe that the company's culture applies to them. And I guess what I was really taking with your work was you were trying to sort of bring culture to these people who spend most of their day alone. And I just wonder if you could just give us some context of how you set about doing that. What are the first things you think about when you're trying to build culture for drivers, for people who work in bus depots? How do you set about trying to create that culture?

5:49I think first of all, to give you a bit of context, Bruce, I arrived and came in to do an interim gig just to help people post-COVID. And then what became apparent was new MD, new leadership team who wanted to move a traditional bus business, which is all about the asset and the timetable, to become a service business where it's all about people and culture. Now, my first presentation I remember to the exec was you treat your people as a cost and a commodity. So the recognition of what we needed to do to seriously provide better customer service, which meant people taking more bus trips, more regular bus trips, return trips.

6:31So actually it was about how do we change the culture of the organization from top to bottom. But my obsession, I suppose, and my team's obsession is our frontline employees. So 18 ,000 engineers and bus drivers and the biggest population bus drivers. And we spent some time. So what we did was two or three things quite early, which were all about listening. They were about some design thinking. We decided we wanted to do a change program, but we wanted to do it bottom up. So we went out and asked bus drivers and frontline managers their ideas about how do we improve things around here for you?

7:11How do we improve things for our customers? Got three or four hundred ideas, codified it, got it into 30 or 40 things. We piloted, we tried things. We then learned there were 14 or 15 things that were really quite important for our frontline staff. And what we then started to do is to support local management team by putting in some coaches, put in those changes. So not top down change, bottom up, do it with the people. So, for example, our canteens was one of the areas where we just come out of COVID and the seating arrangements were horrible. So what we did is we got we got the local teams to buy some second hour furniture and created soft areas, put tables together to create a more social environment.

7:53So very simple things. There was a bit about we hadn't repaired roofs and the toilets were in poor nick. So we spent a lot of time improving those. So I work with other teams. You know, should the senior HR person really be doing toilet refurbishment? My view, yes, because it has a huge impact on the experience of the frontline staff. So that was some of the things. One of the things that I suppose resonates quite a lot when I talk externally is our staff said, why do all the managers behind those locked doors, locked doors in our depot, get free tea and coffee? We're the lowest paid. We don't.

8:31So we decided, quite simply, one of those decisions you make quite quickly, we're going to have free tea and coffee for all frontline staff. So then there was a question of who buys, where do we get the fridge, who gets the milk? You know, there was a view that people would steal the tea and coffee. So it was symbols of change to show that we'd listen to our people and we could do stuff so that what we call people centricity that program was hugely important at the same time we were doing two other things which were predominantly around listening one was we'd started I was very committed to do engagement surveys of all of the workforce every four or five months so we do it three times a year and the reason for that is that I made the targets the engagement surveys are bonusable for all of our managers from senior leaders right the way down is about these are your people, this is what they're saying.

9:22So it's reinforcing that this is a management problem that needs to be addressed by frontline managers and leaders. And what we did with that is we then said, look, we're not interested in big action plans with 25 points. Just pick one thing that's important to your people and try and improve that in the next three or four months. So what we tried to do was build some basic momentum. and try and get managers owning the issues and really recognise it. The other one that was, I suppose, resonated at the beginning was we had a performance management system for drivers, which was called a drop tap, 14 pages long, right?

10:03And it started off with disciplines and attendance. And so it was punitive. It was all about, you know, these are the things you're doing wrong. It also took a huge amount of managers' time. We then got the data and saw that only 10, 11 % were actually taking place a year. So we just abandoned that. And we then went for a very, very simple process, a voluntary conversation that happens every three or four times a year. We call it a catch up. We trained the managers. We gave them some prompts. But it was really an informal human conversation, which is about what's going on for you. How do we make things better around here?

10:41What can we do to improve your life and that of the customer? And what we were then doing through the engagement survey and the catch-ups and the people-centricity was kept repeating, you said, we listened, this is what we've done. To reinforce that fast feedback loops that we're taking this on board, we're taking action. And some of the ideas were a bit far-fetched and sometime we'd have to go back and explain why we couldn't do stuff or it would take longer. but it was to pick some simple things and show that we were serious about this and you know over the last three or four years we've seen the benefits of that play out so those were some of the things we did we then decided there was a uniform project the uniforms hadn't been updated how do we do go about that well we got the unions involved we got frontline staff and we got them to drive it so we did focus groups we did loads of users where the pockets are the materials that we used people of different ethnic persuasions wanting different type of uniform styles things from women and women so but the whole point was engage them at the beginning of the process involve them and really start to get them to understand that for us to be the type of organization we wanted their jobs was the most important bus drivers and engineers one drives the bus meets our customers every day the second one keeps the buses on the road that was the whole point and we're here to support you.

12:07So culturally, we are very clear about where we were trying to get to, but there were lots of things we were trying to do. And at heart of it was listening and taking action. You told me something really interesting when we had a conversation. You said that because of the nature of the job, say if there was a daily complaint against a driver or there was something that had gone wrong, the manager found themselves going to seek out a driver. And the only conversations they were having with drivers in the past had been these disciplinary interventions. And so as a result, I think you told me that there was some session pulled together talking about high performers.

12:41And you said to me that, oh, people have been gathered together. And one manager had said, I don't have a single high performer. I don't have a single good performer in my organization. Largely framed, I think, because they were going to do all these disciplinary interventions. And what I really took from this, I'd love you to explain that. But what I really took from this is that sometimes psychological safety is this sense that our manager has got our back. And when you've just got this constant sense that the manager seems to be coming in to have a go at you, people don't necessarily feel their affinities with their organization or with the manager or with the company.

13:18They might feel it's with their mates, or they might feel it's with their customers, actually. You know, actually, my passengers are are the most important thing, but they don't think it's the company. And all of those things really contributed to me feeling like, oh, I understand how psychological safety can play an important part, but you need to think about how you build it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's also, you know, this was at the heart of a lot of it, Brooks, which was our manager's view was it was the two things that they had to do is keep control. So it was very much top-down hierarchical.

13:53It was command and control. oh, it was about getting the buses out on time and doesn't matter about the people and how they're doing, just keep it going. And if there's an issue, we deal with that in a very punitive, you know, lots of investigation. So, and where this came from, me and Jeanette, who's the MD, do sessions with our frontline managers. And your point was absolutely resonated with us the first time we did this, six or seven sessions over two or three days, what's going on for you? And we were talking to their frontline managers and one of them said, look, I never talked to anyone that does a good job here.

14:23I think there's quite a lot that do a good job, but I only see them for six or seven minutes a day. And I've got a long queue outside my office and I've got a reports that I need to do. So what I do is focus on the problems, not on the people that are doing a great job. So that's why that catch up process was so important, because we created the time for the managers and told them it's a priority to have those catch up conversations. So they've got to go out and have a conversation with the people that are doing a good job. we changed the process around disciplinary took out all the low light lying stuff so if someone hits a wing mirror the first time you don't pull them in and make it a disciplinary you have a chat with them what was the problem if it happens again then you might have to go for so we had to change the formality the hard bit the procedure but it was also about getting to the managers and saying we want you to do something different and training them and giving them a confidence and the belief that if they did that, they'd start to see the improvement in the hard metrics.

15:21So at the heart of what I've described to you, that journey we've been on, Bruce, was a hypothesis that if we treat our people well and we really focus on them, we'll get two things. We'll provide better customer service, which will translate into financial improvements from customers, but it'll also give us lower absence, lower attrition, better productivity. Now, I can give you the hard data on all of that over that four-year journey. We've halved some of this stuff. Our engagement's gone from 41 to 64. So we can see that we are getting, and that builds confidence within senior management. So I had to go with a hypothesis, get the investment, do the first few interventions, and then over time say, look, this is work.

16:05To basically build a transformation, you have to take people with you on the journey. And leaders and managers need to see that a new approach will deliver better results than how they've done it before. Now, that's not to say there isn't a DNA and they bounce back even now, four or five years on, there are times when the behaviour bounces back and we have to keep going and reiterating. So making sure the soft measures are aligned to the hard measures, making sure that leaders and managers see it regularly and see that what they're doing has a huge impact on the performance of the businesses was critical to our thinking.

16:41And I think, you know, as we've executed, it's delivered. What I was really taken with was the system thinking. Quite often, organisations might talk about culture, or they might talk about service, but they don't necessarily see them as a piece of the same thing. When I saw you, it was your annual awards that night. And you said to me, you said, like, tonight, we're going to be celebrating a bus driver who's done something outstanding, amazing, there'll be a beautiful story, and we'll all celebrate them. But we need to think about the circumstances that create that. And you sort of gave me, I scribbled this down at the time, but you gave me some sort of mechanics of thinking about that.

17:15You said every day a driver will be faced with 25 moments of truth that shape what customers think of the service. And you started doing some maths for me. That's 125 a week. That's 500 moments of truth every month. That's 6 ,000 moments of truth per driver per year. And we've got 14 ,000 drivers. That's 80 million moments of truth every year. And I was really taken with that, that like thinking about that in that sort of atomic sense, that the way you treat a driver will in turn have an impact on whether the driver allows someone to sit down, maybe someone who's infirm to sit down before they pull out or whether they help them with something else.

17:57And I was really taken with the idea that quite often organisations don't do the hard work of thinking about If they want to get better customer retention, better profit, better results, then that needs in turn to have had better customer service. And that in turn needs to be thinking about treating the drivers, the people delivering that service better. And I love the through line you built through that. Yeah, I mean, I'm pleased you listened to that because I tell that story quite a lot in our organization. And it resonates with some and not with others. I'm pleased you took it up because it was a way of demonstrating that moments of truth.

18:35So we did a piece of work really early on, which was about we asked bus drivers, you see, you're slightly behind time. You're coming up to a bus stop and you can see someone, an older woman with two big heavy shopping bags running towards your bus. Now, what do you do? She's sort of indicating she's obviously keen to get on the bus. do you just ignore her and accelerate get back on time hard metric you know on time performance is critical for us or do you stop allow the passenger to get on say good morning to her treat her well and she'll be incredibly thankful and actually when we did the survey 72 percent of our drivers would do the hard metric drive past her so for me this was taking examples like that and going, so how does that customer feel?

19:24What does she say? Who does she talk to that day? What does she say about our service? When she goes to think about shopping or going to visit friends or a medical appointment, what is she thinking about our service? So for me, you can take human stories, but if you then quantify them and turn them into hard metrics, you can then really get both the rational and the emotional of your manager's population thinking about this and taking action. So it really does resonate because we have so many moments of truth. You know, we have a big issue at the moment about people on wheelchairs with disability.

20:00And we've only got one place on our buses to put them. But it's also where we store the buggies. Now, as a bus driver, you've got to work that out. You know, you've got to be quite creative and think about how do I support the people, you know, and you're under pressure on time. So in reality, we've now started to create real scenarios, which we know happen every day, and then giving our managers development and advice about what we're expecting of them. Because we didn't really ever tell them that. We just told them that the hard facts, keep the bus on time and just drive it safely. That was it.

20:33And in reality, we didn't talk about the customer experience as part of their job. And actually now we're making it much more of a, because we know from the feedback from customers how important it is to them. And then the impact that we get from that is that they travel more often. And also they talk to their friends and family about how good the service is within their town or city. So you're absolutely right. Turning soft stuff, systems thinking, showing how the soft metrics feed into the hard metrics and how this isn't about just being nice to people. It isn't just about creating good work.

21:06Now, personally, I've got my own crusade is about that. But in reality, I know that if we do that consistently, we'll end up with a better place to work. The engagement will go up. The absence will go down. All of those metrics. Customer service goes up. Financial performance improves. I can then reinvest. So with the second highest performing FTSE 250, our share price has doubled. Our profit has doubled our EBIT. All as we've been driving this cultural transformation. Tell me this then, how do you balance that? Because that is, to some extent, saying I'm going to gift some degree of autonomy, some leverage, some personal control, some sort of self-determination to drivers.

21:47But in a system where they are quite rigidly bound by, look, you know, having a good service also depends on the buses coming on time, right, and the buses being timely. How do you reconcile those two things, that individual leverage, that individual autonomy with being part of the greater good, being part of the greater system? It seems like a really tricky one to balance. It is. It is about talking about we want them to do all of it, and they've got to make some trade-offs. You're right. So we're trying to treat them as adults. We treated them as children. You know, just do what we tell you.

22:20These are the three things, and if you don't do it, we're going to punish you, into, look, we're going to treat you as an adult. You've got to try and make trade-offs. which I can keep it on time. The other thing we had is this thing about clean buses. They always saw it as someone else's job. In the depots, the buses are clean. When I'm going, you get on a bus and it's dirty and it hasn't been cleaned properly and there's some litter. You pick it up, you deal with it. That's not my job. Well, our job as a business is to provide a great experience for our customers. If you can get them to do that, then you go, look, we're all a team and we're in this together.

22:52So what we're trying to do is to create a sense of belonging and we're all in this together. and it is about balancing and trading off and working collectively in depots so we've spent a lot of time thinking about teams and that's why when we do problem solving at local depot level we get ranges of people involved because our engineers and our bus drivers had different canteens different rest areas and what we've been trying to do is get them together because you know they perceive it's two different things you know i drive the bus you fix the bus you clean the bus well in reality collectively we've got you know do you report force as a driver well yeah some do and some don't but actually that's your job because that's about prevention prevention and keeping the buses on the road and giving that information to the engineers so that's what we've been on you know as you can tell you have to keep going back and be getting quite granular but the thing i suppose i'm passionate about bruce is the problem with culture is it gets quite philosophical at some point and you talk to other HR people, I go, turn it, ask the questions about what's important to your people.

23:57Think about their experiences every day and help them tell you what you need to be doing as a business. And if you do that and follow through, you'll build momentum and you'll, because human beings like to see progress. They like to react. They like to go, oh, you know, we're buying lots of electric buses because we've got a big sustainability agenda. And, you know, they love them. They're easier to drive. They're quieter. They provide a better customer experience. And we're doing something for the environment. So some of the work we did, so the work around narrative and values came later because I didn't want to lead with that.

24:33I wanted to get some practicalities and some reaction on the ground happening before we engaged our people in how do we create our purpose? How do we create our values? So for me, there's a bit about making sure that you don't do it in a top down sequential way. build this stuff bottom up. You used the phrase to me when we were talking, you said that people want to feel like they're part of something. People want to feel like they're sort of a participant in something. And it really stuck with me. I've used that phrase a lot in the last sort of nine months since you said it, which is quite a simple thing, but I think it articulates when culture is working, I feel part of something rather than I feel next to it or, you know, look over with suspicion at it.

25:16And it's just a really interesting thing that I guess drivers certainly work alone. So you don't always feel part of something for sort of eight hours on the road or however long they drive. I wonder what else you use to make someone feel part of something. Yeah, I mean, I think some of the things I've talked about, so the catch-ups are clearly part of it. Sort of regular communication in depots, giving people information. we've got an app that we use for two-way communication so drivers can communicate back and give ideas you know and we've really amplified that so that you know we basically say we're looking for ideas we're looking to improve things so that whole you've got a vested stake in giving us your ideas and you'll see things happen now and also feeding back what isn't happening so that's what we're trying to create that you know when i first went to our depots we'd have that that people would walk past each other in a depot and not even say hello, good morning.

26:10So how do you start to do that? So what I'm talking to managers about is you role model. Do you know everyone's name? Do you go out every day? Is it about visual management? Do you go around and say, what happened at your weekend? How's your football team doing? All of that stuff, which creates that we're interested in the human being. We are interested in the person. We are interested in the job and how we do things better, but we're interested in you and your ideas. so everyone brings a free brain to work it's not just about driving the bus or fixing the bus it's tell us about what you think we can do better and then demonstrating one that you've listened but two wherever you can you take some action if you take action then you play it back you told us there was a problem with the leaks or the toilets this is what we've done it's going to get done in the next three months you've told there was a problem with the signage on the buses and they're in the wrong place.

27:00You gave us feedback that our ticket machines don't work properly and they keep going down. So we will invest in things. But the uniform, I suppose, was the big win for me. Our drivers kept saying the uniforms were not fit for purpose. And we looked at it time and time again, year after year, and just kept doing what we've done. So we said, we're going to invest. We've got a new brand. We've got a new purpose. But then you basically engage the workforce. and we had a vote on the different colours and the different... So everybody was asked their view and opinion. And then we went out with the results and we're doing the same with engineers.

27:35So it's about, you know, I can give my ideas, there'll be focus groups and surveys, but then everyone gets a stake in giving us their views and opinions. That means they start to believe and actually see that the organisation is listening and we are in it together. We recognise that we're creating a difficult work environment and our job is to make it easier for them to provide a great service, to provide a great customer experience. So there's lots of things we've been doing, but all of it very much from that sort of concept of listening and taking action. I get the sense that with a job like this and, you know, the job's never done.

28:16As you're looking into the, you know, you've got that first stage done or maybe that's the first and second stage done. what presents itself to you now? What are the big challenges you've got going forward? I mean, yeah, look, this is a, at the beginning I said, this is a five to six year journey. We're sort of four and a bit years in, and I think there's another three or four years to go. And you never get there. And, you know, it's always about iterations and improvements. There's more about the leaders and the managers. We've done a big leadership intervention about a year, 18 months ago, where we did an immersive experience for all the leaders.

28:52to talk to them about, you know, most of them had never had any copper leadership development. Lots of them had only worked in the bus industry and hadn't got experiences. So they hadn't had a business education. But they also, a lot of the stuff we were talking about in terms of customer service, customer service profit chain, people engagement were sort of new concepts. And we wanted to give them the language and the tools and the processes. So we did work around that. We did a target operating model to simplify the ways in which we structured ourselves and to make their more clear lines of sight between leaders and the businesses that they're running.

29:29And we've done a lot of work around frontline managers because for me, they're the huge catalyst of change. I think, you know, the more you get frontline managers into coach away from manager and control, the more you're going to start to move the agenda and you're going to have the type of conversations. You know, I think conversations change organisations. That's my point. And actually, you've got to give people the dialogue and the time and the process to be able to do that. So we're trying to unpick processes. We're putting in work that we're putting in, you know, we're putting investment in so we can actually make things better.

30:05We can give people better people data so they can start to own their own performance and their people relationships more effectively. we're trying to improve the app so there's much more of an engagement online and people can get information and do stuff within the business rather than always having to phone people up or fill in pieces of paper so a huge amount of trying to remove bureaucracy and process and trying to humanize work but also keeping that focus on you know line of sight between you know treating your people well people treat your customers well that leads to improved performance every day, day in, day out, which leads to superior financial performance so we can reinvest at the beginning of the cycle.

30:48So more of the same, but different interventions, different tools, different things that we need to do to move us on to the next phase. Kevin, we're out of time. I'm so inspired by what you do because I think it's the brilliant example of people not just talking about culture, but actually sort of thinking about the tiny little building bricks that actually contribute to it. And normally people get lost in the bravado of the big stuff without bothering to do the detail of the little stuff. So you're an inspiration for me. I think I would say, which is just a final comment about HR people. So I'm an HR professional.

31:23I'm a business person, but HR professional, as you know. The thing I say to HR when I go out and talk at conferences is forget perfection, 80-20, minimum viable product. Does it deliver for your people? Whereas I think we're always interested in the best competency framework, the most brilliantly designed. Forget that. Does it work for them? That's the point. Look at the outcome you're trying to create. Forget the process. Whereas I think we spend as a profession too far too much time thinking about the intervention. And we've got to become much more like marketeers. Think about the audience. Think about the behaviour shift and focus on getting the outcomes you're looking for.

32:03So that would be my final thought. Sorry, Bruce. thank you so much for taking time to talk to me kevin i've enjoyed it thank you very much indeed

32:11thank you to kevin i loved that discussion you'll find a transcript and links to that in the show notes and uh it's actually really relevant i had a discussion this week that i'll feature next door with glass door glass door are the uh the organization who measure um the sort of the reviews of work experience in different organisations. And there's a lot of overlap between what Kevin talked about and what Glassdoor sees in the best organisations there. Really good discussion. If you're interested in this or anything like it, best place to stay connected is in the newsletter, and you'll see a link to that in the show notes.

32:50I've been Bruce Dazley. Thank you for listening. See you next time.

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