Life Reclaimed with Pippa Grange

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1:22This is Eat Sleep, Work Repeat. It's a podcast about workplace culture. Hello, I'm Bruce Taisley. I had really good feedback for the newsletter last week, which was about challenges to psychological safety in purpose-driven organisations. If you're not following the newsletter, you can see that in the show notes. But it's often a sort of good place for people to have discussions, disagreements, reflections on the things I'm writing about. And generally, that's everything workplace culture related. Today's podcast discussion is with Dr. Pippa Grange. Now, Pippa used to work at the England football team, and I sort of built a connection with her when she was there.

2:05She was credited in an article way back in 2018, credited in her role as head of people and culture for Gareth Southgate's England team. And I got in touch with her there, featured her on the podcast shortly after she left the team. And I've sort of stayed in contact with her as she's become a bestselling author. She's often called out by the likes of Brenny Brown. She's been featured on some of the biggest podcasts in the world, just talking about her previous book, Fear Less. I love getting the chance to chat to people like Pippa because she's worked with such elite teams and she's been in such incredibly exclusive environments, you know, like the semi-final of the World Cup.

2:50She's in that dressing room. I think her perspective is incredibly valuable. I'm always intrigued. What does someone like Pippa say when they're sitting down with, what do they ask them? What do they advise them? How do they counsel them? And I think that's why this book's so powerful. She's sort of styling herself as a regenerative psychologist now, helping us to regenerate, re-energise, rebuild, whether in the aftermath of burnout or more as we're sort of reflecting on what we're trying to achieve with our lives. Incredibly powerful and thoughtful discussion. And it's always, like I say, an honor to get to chat to someone like Pippa.

3:32So this is my discussion with Dr. Pippa Grange. She's the author of a brand new book, Life Reclaimed. Just to kick off, I wonder if you could introduce who you are and what you do. Yes, I am Pippa Grange. I am a performance psychologist, or what I now call a regenerative performance psychologist and for the last 25 or so years I've worked with organizations teams and individuals to help them stay in one piece and enjoy the ride while they're doing amazing things performing in most often in sport most of my career has been in sport but also business and science and tech and industry at large so yeah that's kind of me in a nutshell now I was revisiting the notes albeit that you and I have communicated many times in the last time since you've been on the podcast but when you're on the podcast which is a pre-covid thing you'd just left the FA yeah and the book actually talks about it opens your new book we should introduce your new book but the new book begins with you describing your burnout in that period and I've tried to piece together where you were in that so I'd love you to sort of filling the gaps there really after the fa i went and worked with another football organization which was fantastic right to dream they're an organization that has football clubs and developmental academies across the world and i was chief culture officer there which was a really great job but as and my burnout was at the end of that period but as you would know yourself but also from reading the book that is burnout was not an event it's a cumulative gathering of situations and circumstances and overreaching for a long period of time and then it's involuntary when it comes.

5:18I don't associate it with that role necessarily, but more a long journey getting to that point. Okay, okay, that makes sense. I was just trying to place exactly the time and the place and how that went through. I wonder if you could lean into that a bit more. You talked there about burnout is not necessarily an event. How do you think about burnout, especially having either witnessed it in other people, experienced it yourself. How do you think about burnout? I think what it is basically a very uncomfortable, involuntary transition away from what's no longer working for you. The way I see it is, as I said, cumulative gathering of denying, avoiding, ignoring, overriding yourself and all the signals that your body is giving you until eventually your body says, hey, I'm going to take over here.

6:05You're handing over the keys. This is no longer an option for you. And a full burnout, as I experienced, is not light work. It's very physical. It has a set of symptoms, a vast set of symptoms that many people experience differently. But the ones I experienced had a lot to do with cognitive fog and massive fatigue and low mood and inability to just basically have any mojo on any given day. My body was involuntarily making me do what it needed because I was refusing to listen for so long. So I see it like that. It's a hard thing across the research and the literature. It's a hard thing to actually define.

6:51It's still got the word syndrome with it is not yet considered evidenced enough and clean and clear enough to be described as a disease or an illness. And we use the term colloquially, like if you've had a rough week, you might say you're a bit burnt out this week. But actually a full burnout is a much more sort of comprehensive falling apart, basically. And it takes a good while to come back. I wonder if this is part of what's led you to write this really reflective book this the new book's called Life Reclaimed and it's a reflective quite beautifully written exploration into kind of the meaning that we derive from things what we're setting out to do why we might have those goals that we're setting out to do but one of the things that really struck me was that you talk about us burning out not just because we do a lot, but because what we're doing doesn't give meaning to the way that we're feeling.

7:51And that sense that burnout, to some extent, is almost a psychological rather than physical thing. You talk about nurses who are burning out because they're doing reporting instead of nursing, or teachers doing admin instead of teaching. And that's a really interesting... I mean, it's very relatable. It's a really interesting reframing route we might reach burnout. And I'd love you to explore a bit more of that if you could. Yeah, absolutely. One thing I would say, you would have read this in the book, but that sort of artificial division between your biology and your psychology, I conflate those a lot more.

8:29Because I don't think things really just happen in our head or in our body. Burnout is absolutely biological but it's also deeply psychological that's worth saying up front but humans can overperform we do it very often and it doesn't cause a problem the problem comes when it's chronic and when it's taking us away from aligning with what we actually care about so that we're masking we're pretending we're pushing when we don't want to push we're overreaching psychologically and physically burnout is a culmination of those things like i describe it in the book as eventually being unfaithful to yourself because you you're you're getting a strong no from an internal no but externally you're still doing it and it does definitely make a difference how much cost it extracts when you're not attached to the thing that you're doing or you've lost meaning in the thing that you're doing.

9:28Sometimes that can be it's too tasky and you don't have anything other than the task. It's too repetitive. Sometimes that's actually quite far away from what you thought you'd be doing or what you intended to do. But you've got yourself stuck in a rut or you feel like you've got yourself stuck in a rut and don't know how to come out of there. The reason why it's so intriguing from you is, and you were a credible, really credible person to talk about it, is that, you know, we associate sports psychology or like elite psychology, overperformance or elite level performance, getting the last bit of capability out of us.

10:06And so understanding the balance between overperformance and then burnout is a really important understanding for us to have. And you talk a lot about overperformance. You talk a lot about what is over performance and I'd love you to go into that really because help me reframe what I thought a performance coach was setting out to try to do really yeah I think the easiest way to approach this is to think about the reality of how of staying in one one mode all the time rather than moving in and out of a mode and that mode in this case as you're talking about is intensity right so that getting that last drop out like blood sweat and tears leave nothing out there that's for game day right if you live your whole life like it's game day this is where we get a problem and i think in industry particularly we find a lot of that where there is there isn't actually an end to the cycle there isn't there isn't a weekend there isn't a after the game period, which there is in elite sport.

11:10It's cyclical, it's rhythmic, and there is time for rest and renewal. Otherwise, the person can't perform at the weekend. The team can't perform at the weekend. It's actually really quite structured in that way to get the very best. But what we see is through a very small lens of game day push. Now, of course, you have to go to your edges when you're an elite performer of any kind, and that might be the edge of your fear, your courage might be the edge of your physical capability but you don't stay there that's the point when we get in a chronic mode just it's a monoculture of style that's where we get into trouble so it's being able to move diversify speeds rhythms intensities rest periods go periods and that's really the message i want to leave people with is that if it it's never all go i You would see as well, I draw not just from my history in high performance and sport, but from ecology.

12:09And I make the point that nothing in ecology that is in intensity the whole time is in grow, push, drive, the mad chaos of doing all the time. It's always cyclical to some degree. And that's, you know, we override that as if we know better. But we're not machines. We're humans. We're bodied. and our psychology works just the same way most people see it as you work and then you rest yours your podcast speaks to the eat work sleep repeat sort of things as if it's a as if it's a line a binary it's like you're on or you're off but actually in high performance it's a triangle and the third point of that triangle is is renew so there's perform which is the big biggest amount of time there is rest and then there is renew which is a much smaller piece of time but should be equal priority and renew is the regeneration part it's what can i do differently with a couple of hours to reset my mood to lift my energy it might just be laughter it might be something that takes you into a more creative space it might be play is so important in that but it's something other than the couch or bed when you're done with the work.

13:29There's got to be another little piece that's renewing that is not about performing in any way. So your renewal, the R that is renewal in the triangle should not have goals attached. And just an hour here and there, and that's a wonderful thing. I guess, you know, that very famous photograph of the England football team on inflatable unicorns. A perfect encapsulation of that. Yeah, that was a good example of that. But I've got working with a client at the moment who is a genius in his own field, but he's studied improv effect and he's trying out improv and stand-up comedy as just something completely different that is going to be in a complete learner mindset and it's very engaging.

14:16It only takes him a little bit of time, but it's really renewing for his mojo at large. And I don't think we leave enough time for that beyond all the tasks. It's interesting, isn't it? Because that sort of fetishisation of productivity, to some extent, these things, indulgence, they feel indulgent rather than much done as possible. That's why I talk passionately about the narratives that we live in and the mentalities that we've got. Not on my watch. I'll sleep when I'm dead. after the work's done we'll get to the fun but it's that doesn't that's not optimal by any stretch that is not regenerative that is depletion getting to a state of it's extracting extracting getting to a point of depletion then resting or thinking about renewing what can we do within instead of waiting for that like how do we do it in a bit more of a whole way it doesn't take so much it's not arduous it's just a shifted mindset that's no this is how you perform not this is what you do after the performance you talk about working with on-screen talent on field talent but businesses i think might really struggle to adapt to that it's a new quarter it's always a new month the big expectations of investors are unyielding and i'm interested how that idea of all of this perfectly, makes perfect sense how it lands with businesses that maybe are expecting the unreasonable really.

15:48Yeah, that's a really great last sentence. But I think the point is to explore and illuminate how performance actually works. Performance is state dependent. And if everybody has a frazzled nervous system the whole time, they're slightly dysregulated because everything is urgent, everything is push, there is no rebound or buffer time, then you're going to get not just the risk of burnout, you're going to get worse decision making, higher poor risk tolerance, probably worse behavior, less collaboration, narrowed attention. So there's a cost that goes with the push. The push is our sense of, I speak about the start of the book, the narratives that we live in and our sense of needing always to optimize, never waste a moment, stand out, do more, be more, push harder.

16:43We've really imbibed those in workplaces and organizations, but they're actually not the most effective method if what you want is sustained performance. You have to get people over the idea that it's anti-ambition or it's not even anti-hustle, It's pro-sustainability. It's working with human beings rather than machines. And that's that human experience where you want people to be able to access the values that are on the wall. People don't tune out of them for any other reason that they don't have the capacity or the bandwidth left when their nervous system is so dysregulated and includes their own values.

17:22so it's really about the reframing of what high performance takes if it's not just for now it's not just this tiny window of opportunity in which case push and drive maybe is the way but there has to be a rebound it's like put in the book in life reclaim the performance is coming up to the crest of the circle and then you've got to come down the other side too what we do in And organizations oftentimes, when it's constant push, is just rev on that first curve and never allow the completion of the cycle. And so people can't even access their best ideas, their best decisions, certainly not their best collaborations.

18:05And I guess that's the reframe. It's not about less performance. There's nothing about lowering the standards here. It's better methods. If you were to go back, you talked about the period when you worked with a big sports club and then you went into something more corporate. were there any of those elements that were playing a part in your own experience that you had gone from something that had natural seasons ups and downs peaks to now something that was more commercial that was just that hamster wheel was any of that in your own experience yeah definitely that's that that the kind of work that i do i need to be able to diversify my modes speeds it needs to be I need to have the kind of rhythm where I can be imaginative where I can find a real edge or a point of difference and that doesn't always happen when you're sprinting so that is certainly a part I think for me is also worth saying the realization as I'd moved up the chain and I was running departments and executive roles for me personally that took me away from the work I'm best at and that rewards me most, which is one-on-one or small intimate teamwork where it's transformational and you can really change the way somebody's living their life and performing at work, whatever their work is.

19:26Sitting around tables discussing stadiums and strategy wasn't for me. It's not that it's wrong, it's just that wasn't the right alignment for me. And the pace piece absolutely dulled my imagination. It's so interesting, isn't it? I've heard businesses talk about Fridays or four-day weeks or all manner of little interventions that they introduce. And one of the things where summer Fridays might be, they finish at three o 'clock on a Friday in the summer months, or that they give everyone the period between Christmas and New Year off and you don't need to use vacation for it. And what you often hear is because there's such an obsession with productivity and individualism that people looking at that will go, oh, there you go.

20:11You've just baked in low productivity. But what, to some extent, using the lens that you've given there is actually allowing people to recognize this is a between stage. This is a little moment in the calendar where we're not going full pelt. You're giving them some subconscious signal that okay it's going to get intense in September but actually enjoy August enjoy July something in creating those rhythms maybe in an unspoken way that possibly those businesses benefit from that by having this sort of subconscious communication of peaks and troughs that's the way I interpret some of what you're saying there yeah for sure and regenerative performance the word regenerative is to renew to go again and renew and for me regenerative performance is being able to do it within the system that you're in rather than having to come out of the system and break so the main point of this is that we don't we build workplace systems for output not for human beings and i think that we should really revisit that i think it needs a lot of courage to revisit that but at the end of the day i'm talking about regenerative performance not just as summer Fridays, that's lovely by the way, but not just as that, but how do you have, how do you make it normal that regulating the nervous system buffering is part of the day?

21:38How do you plan for when there's a really heavy cognitive load and loads of decision making and loads of output required and then a softer period? How do you make that part of your operational planning? How do you plan for even just in an individual sort of workflow across a week? How do you plan for transitions so that there is no back-to-back meetings? Everybody knows that we shouldn't do back-to-back meetings, right? Our cognitive capacity drops so dramatically, you're in the same room, the CO2 has gone up too far and everybody's a little bit foggy and a bit less capable, but we still have such a strong urgency to such a strong drive to push and do a bit more.

22:21It's not what gets the result. So to step away and buffer and transition, walk, move, step outside. They're such small things, but it's like, how do you regulate within the day, not wait for the break at the end of the week or at the three o 'clock on a Friday? I would like to see redesign within the workplace. I would also really like to see it be taken seriously as something other than a perk. If there's nice things that go around your job, like a bit more time off on a Friday, how can you expand that thinking to make it about within work, within culture? And the culture is designed for regenerative performance.

23:05It's not a lowering of standards. It's not a lowering of productivity. It's a lowering of urgency, false deadlines, artificial priorities, rush mentality, push mentality where it doesn't need to be. And it requires leadership permission, requires demonstration and requires probably some better structural planning within workforces. one of the things that i the book is very good at is helping you to reappraise what your actual ambitions are where do your motivations your desires come where why do i strive for this why am i driven by this what's the gap inside me that's thinking about this and you there's a chapter in there that talks about that a lot of high performance is essentially trauma dressed up as ambition like a lot of the time people's desire to do something is filling a void that they've felt inside them as you've worked directly with sports people and you might have witnessed some of that I'd love you to reflect on where we get our motivations from and sometimes in extremes where those motivations come from yeah I think the thing with trauma is it amplifies rather than necessarily always creates, right?

24:23So if you are thinking, hey, I'd really like to be the one who achieves X, if there's trauma kicking around, you might be so much more likely to override yourself, overperform, as I call it, and push yourself to the brink a little bit more. So it's really about method as much as anything. But I do, both the narratives that I start with in the book of, you know seeing ourselves as separate and you can press override on yourself nothing else matters the humans in charge of everything not wasting a minute optimizing everything needing to stand out not worrying about fitting in and always the chase for more when you match those with what your values are because really our strongest motivation comes from what we value or should come from what we value when you match up with what you value it's a really good reflective exercise say what am I doing this for again and is this a moment to really consider better reasons to perform than the ones that I've had reach the top get some more optimize be seen I think there's a I think that's a nice that's something I enjoyed about the book that came out of me and came out in the book that's that's an important thing to offer ourselves especially seasonally like how do I feel in my I might feel different in my 40s and my 30s or my 50s and my 40s like let me recheck on what my values actually are?

25:44Am I in integrity with them? Am I in flow with the work? Am I in vitality with myself? And am I in relationship with the people I want to be and with the world at large? Or am I in a little bubble gritting and pressing the gas? I was having a conversation about this specifically yesterday. I don't feel like I've got clearly articulated values. And I was like, oh, I wonder if I could go through the process of trying to work out what my values are. someone's trying to do that where would you advise them to start what are the things that they need to think about i was just trying to think i don't want loads of these values but i do want to what the things that make me tick are and what things that make me when either when you work with people in coaching or whether or just when you're going through that process yourself do you think about reaching your own values it's kind of that's what life reclaims does in a way it's like a reflective, am I doing it the way I intend to do it and what else would I do if that's not the case?

26:46One of the things that's really important is checking your behavior first. So before you go off into some esoteric thought experiment about what your values might be, have a look at where you spend your time. Because most times it's the thing that you might say you value and the thing that you spend your life on might be a bit misaligned or a bit misaligned for many of us. So if, for example, you say, I was working with a leadership team recently and they said their values were collaboration and openness. But when I observed them in leadership meetings, everybody talked over each other. As soon as there was any tension, it got shut down.

27:25Left field opinions weren't really welcome at the table because they needed a result on the hour. Decision making was squeezed. so collaboration didn't show up in the behavior and openness didn't show up in the behavior they wanted it to their intention was for that but that's not what the behavior said so i start normally by getting people to really audit how they're behaving and then stand back and say is that what you intend is that what you're intending value wise does that line up with who you think you want to be and aspire to be in your value set post burnout for me invite being in vitality is one of my values because that if I have to strain or if I have if I say yes because for example I want to be seen well or I want to please somebody say yes to a piece of work but it's putting me into strain I'm against my values so it really helps me align and say no I'm taking myself into the wrong lane here.

28:28I have to say no. So that's in integrity. Does it feel right to you? Does it feel valid? Or is there something that you're chasing approval? You might be out of integrity with yourself. I'd love to understand your take on if the world is perceived as being incredibly individualistic now. That idea of individualism and self-help to some extent is perceived as part of this. You're also a person that's had to think about the collective, about you've mentioned teams there, about group. I think last time we spoke, you said team culture is like the soul of a team. I'd love to understand your perspective of how those things ebb and flow.

29:09Is collectivism as important? Is this, is collectivism something that we don't think about as much? How do you see those things in balance for us as individuals, me thinking about my values there, But then for a lot of the people who listen to this are obsessed with teams and team dynamic. How do you intersect with teams and collectivism? For me, the whole point is relationships. As we talked about last time, years ago, and you would have seen that through all of my work, that relationships is a central source of both purpose, fulfillment and performance. But I think we do have to think on both levels.

29:44We're perfectly capable of thinking in parallel levels on this. there's the outward expression of what we care about which is into the collective and the collective might be a team it might be an organization it might be a community it might be us as a humanity we do actually need to think on that level and when we're so dysregulated in our nervous systems and we're so in urgency culture we just trample over things like that because we're busy right so i think it i think there's never been a more important time for us to put our head up and say, how's this playing out in the world at large collectively?

30:21My behavior, how's it playing out? But the change starts inside. So it's like an inside out job. People say, you hear in psychology and self-help a lot, it's an inside job. Sure it is, but it's an inside and then out job. It doesn't just stay inside, but you need to work on you and your behavior and your mentalities what narratives you're living in but enough that you show up in the way that you intend to in the collective right in the world outside of your window a lot of us are just psychologically indoors all the time and it's you know the minds of a powerful thing and very dominant there's a lot of chat going on in there all the time and if we're not careful we can inhabit that too much and not come out into the collective.

31:09And also on the flip side, if you don't want to have a look in the mirror, we can spend a lot of time focusing on team dynamics, for example, and never do the work on the individual and particularly how regulated, renewed, regenerated that individual is. Yeah, thinking about, I said to you as I was reading the book, one of the things that was especially of interest to me was the quotation that you used, which was asking yourself, should you get a bigger table or put a fence around? I loved that quotation. So I wonder if you could give us that perspective on that. Yeah, I think the quotation is, if you find yourself fortunate, build a longer table rather than a higher fence.

31:53And it's that sort of idea that like the joy of achieving and of success is when it's shared. that sort of gathering everything for self and more and more gain more and more exceptionalism and standing out standing away from the heroics of that there is actually for a lot of people it's actually much less rewarding than they imagined when they get there and the idea is if you find yourself successful how can you open the doors to more people because that's where the reward will be and that doesn't mean just do more for others it's relating if you work something out in your workplace if you know how to do something how do you build along the table so that more people can come around and learn with you move with you and time again with leaders that I've worked with and high performers in sport and other team-based events particularly that's where they find the reward that's what they remember at the end of the day so i think it's it's i also love that quote but i think it's a mentality that is about opening heart as well as mindset changing the mindset away from individual ever upward me orientation i talk about from me to we to us me is my gain we might be my team but ours is all of us so yeah i think that's a really beautiful link back to the idea of values too yeah what are you here to do i just i guess it's not directly from the new book but i just i wanted to get a perspective from you about team culture team cohesion, trying to build something bigger.

33:39You've obviously worked with lots of different teams. And I guess the interesting perspective that a lot of people say to me right now is that teams don't feel as good as they've felt before, or they're not as cohesive the way we're working, the way that we are intentionally so fragmented now that the teams don't feel as connected. When you're working with teams now, I'm sure the essence of these things, is unchanged and eternal. But when you're working with teams now, what are the things that you're having to remind them of? What are the sort of the things that maybe they've seen that they've deprioritized that they need to be put back on the straight and narrow about?

34:22I think the thing I would say is that culture emerges through conditions. It's so easy to think it's that guy over there that needs to do x differently or the individual's attention is scattered short that's a thing but it's that's not the i wouldn't say that's the fulcrum of what what we're experiencing in sort of diffuse culture right now i would say it's the conditions and i would always orient a team or a set of leaders to rethink the conditions that they're asking people to operate in those conditions where psychological safety shows up those conditions are where you feel free mentally flexible where there's emotional range or not where you feel that you have to code switch and be in role or not where you have to conform to the norm or where you can bring something new or not that that you have to rethink what is the environment you've heard me say before, Bruce, but if the flower isn't growing, you don't blame the flower, you look at the soil.

35:27It's the same thing with culture. It's that whole mindset, that ecological mindset. As I say in Life Reclaimed, you have to reconsider what conditions you're creating for people to unleash what they've got, including their motivation, their talent, their productivity, etc it should be a verb it's like you make culture right people make culture it doesn't exist outside of people it's made from what you resist what you reward what you prioritize and if we just put junk inputs in all the time you'll get junk outputs junk inputs in terms of the conditions you'll get junk outputs or lessened outputs or fake performative outputs if you want something more real and more sustainable then you have to make real and sustainable conditions and then back to your earlier question then what's the bravest question a leader can ask themselves that they might resist at first in thinking about regenerative performance it's like what is it that i'm not prepared to put on the table to change and it's usually not a result-based thing it's a method based thing like timing or the push culture something like that always a fascination for me that, you know, someone who's worked with some of the highest performing individuals, and always the question in my head is, I wonder what they talk about.

36:48I wonder what happens when you go into a room. And so I think the reason why I was quite moved by this book, I'm not remotely a reflective person, for good or for bad. Sometimes it's got advantages to it. And I rarely lie awake at night thinking about things. That process of me thinking about values, it takes a lot to drag me to that stage where I'm like, yeah, I need to do that process. I think I've got it roughly there, but I want it consistent. And so it's just so fascinating to see what one of the world's most respected performance coaches actually asks you to think about. And it's, for me, some of the most powerful stuff is that the contextualization, the perspective taking, the thinking about what you're setting out to do rather than what you're trying to get ticked off today.

37:32They're incredibly powerful for me. I think people will get a lot from this because it's inviting you to think, look, there's context of burnout, there's context of how we're feeling, but it's also helping you to reframe what your own goals are in life, what success looks like. And I think that was incredibly powerful for me. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I've got people like you in mind, Bruce, when I write for an audience, because I'm thinking about it. You named it before. It's like you start inside, you have to start inside and then you do the outside work. But it is behavioral. It is things that we're already doing.

38:13I just want people to understand that they're probably not doing it wrong, but they might be not paying attention to the right things, the right methods. And it might not take that much to get back on track with some things. But a little reframe on what are you performing for? What is it costing you? can you be a bit more honest about your behavior and how you're showing up and your behavior, especially in overriding your body, overriding doing things in a way that you know is going to lead to trouble one way or another. Even if it doesn't lead to burnout, it might lead to, as I was saying before, worse performance because we're just human and that's what human beings need and do.

38:53You know, you can regenerate within the set of circumstances that you find yourself in today and it's not all navel gazing it definitely requires action that's the back end of the book of what you so what do you do next yeah will we see i see that dear england the tv the play is going to be making its way onto tv screens it is you were a character in that play will you be will you be on our tv screens this summer unfortunately for you guys yes i will is not me it's jodie whistaker who's playing dr grange in the tv adaptation so i think the play got 422 000 people through england who went to the theater to see it it's just i'm so proud of them for being willing to dramatize the emotional side of sport like that and people loved it it's not about me it's about what they created and what that moment represented and i think that's fantastic but yeah it will be a four-part series just before the world cup on the bbc have you seen it yourself not yet i'm gonna have a preview it's too cringy yeah of course it's so weird it's so weird but but no i haven't seen i've seen the play but i haven't seen the tv adaptation yet yeah oh how exciting it's and like you say exciting and surreal in equal measure yeah very surreal yeah it's very odd thank you Pippa thank you so much for taking the time to to come and talk and I loved the fact that for me this was a lot of people might have read your previous book Fear Less but this is really a sort of partner piece really an ongoing conversation it is the quality of writing is it's just enjoyable just to sit and reflect upon you did a fabulous job there I really appreciate that Thanks.

40:38Thank you to Pippa. If you're interested, her new book is Life Reclaimed, and I think it comes out pretty much any day now. So whenever you're listening to this, you'll be able to order it and receive it pretty much instantly. I've been Bruce Taisley. As I mentioned right at the outset, best way to stay in touch with any of this stuff is via the newsletter, and you'll see a link to that in the show notes. Thank you for your company. See you next time.

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