192. Native American Chiefs, the Founding of Canada, and the KKK: Scots in America

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0:29Hello and welcome to Empire with me Anita Arnans. And me, William Durimple. Now guess what, this is the final episode of our mini-series Scots in Empire And then it says here, which I think you might have written Although fear not, we've got more Scots for you very soon Oh good Because what I felt very strongly is we haven't had enough Well I always feel we haven't had enough Scots But I'm sure we'll have the Punjabis in Empire series soon Today, today, today, we are joined again by Murray Pittock The wonderful Murray Pittock Wonderful Murray Pittock We love Murray In fact, Murray, if William meets with an untimely accident Do you want to do a podcast?

1:12Anita, I think you're absolutely marvellous yourself But I deprecate your last remark Oh really? Okay, I mean, nobody's saying it will happen It certainly won't I'm meeting Anita for lunch today I'll watch out while she's slipping into my lager Check out what's happened to the stair rods When you go down Murray, stop giving him clues. He'll never see it coming. Anyway, look, the reason we've got Murray on again, I'm delighted to say, is we are going to be talking about, well, we talked about, or we have been talking about in this area, Scots in Africa, but we are talking about Scots in America today.

1:49And there've always been these very, very strong links between Scotland and America. You can see it around, you know, the echoes of an ancient diaspora that came over very, very long ago. And people are very proud of their Scottish roots, even now in America. Just think of the leading hamburger chain, or indeed McDonnell Douglas. It's all there. Burger King. No, you don't mean Burger King. Wendy's. Wendy's. I think we understand. But the USA, this is kind of interesting. I like this fact. The USA has eight Aberdeens. Did you know that? Seven towns that are called Glasgow. Eight are called Edinburgh.

2:26Eight towns are simply called Scotland. People just gave up on any kind of a magic. just calling it Scotland. And nine of America's first 13 governors, that's every member of the first cabinet, 11 presidents, 35 Supreme Court justices are of Scottish ancestry. And they talk about it. They were proud of it. And you could probably do the same with the Caribbean too. There are endless Aberdeens, Invernesses and everything else in the Caribbean. So look, very briefly, and if we will, very briefly, Murray, because we talked about it before, just recap on how Scots, you know, the relationship with not just America, but also the Caribbean after Culloden.

3:03What was the pull of these places? To take the Caribbean and the Chesapeake, which is the main area which is involved after Culloden. Just to clarify, where is the Chesapeake? So we're talking about the Virginia and Southern Coast. We're talking two dimensions here. The first is those who are transported, often without trial by the British authorities, in a tradition that goes back to Cromwell's administration in the 1650s. As early as 1651, there were 7 ,000 Scots transported to the Caribbean, which is actually much larger than the 600 or so that were transported after Culloden. And just to clarify, this is not for a nice holiday in the sun.

3:43This is as indentured labour. So the post-Culloden ones were normally, the passage was charged at five pounds by the carriers, and they were sold for five pounds on the quayside on arrival. So they were sold into indentured labor in the Caribbean. So they were technically released after seven years. One has to say that given your life expectancy was not seven years, if you were laboring in the Caribbean, or if you were a soldier in the Caribbean, you can't describe it as chattel slavery, but the circumstances could be extremely adverse. And in the event that one of these people, for example, a woman, a woman were transported to, had a mixed race child, the child would become a slave and the woman's indenture would be effectively extended.

4:32So it's a continuum. There's a desire to separate off chattel slavery as uniquely evil, and it was. But the people in these circumstances are in pretty dreadful circumstances. Can I just ask, I mean, just to get this clear in my mind, were they then enduring the same conditions as those who were from Africa who were brought over? Were they chained together? I mean, were they given sufficient rations? What was their accommodation like? What do we know about all of that? It's basically one step up. But of course, there are people of African origin like Toussaint L 'Ouverture himself, who became coachmen and so on, whose conditions were better than indentured servants were.

5:10Some of those indentured had conditions which were just about as bad, though they usually weren't chained. Some of them were virtually free, especially if they were bought by fellow Scots. I've got a question, Murray. Are these mainly Highlanders and Gaelic-speaking? Is there a hierarchy there too within Scotland whereby the Highlanders get treated worse? No, in Scotland, you have the same situation as you have in Ireland after 1798, which is that it suits both sides to describe it as a nativist Gaelic rising when it isn't. So a large number of those transported are not Gaelic speakers. There's some sign of particular awareness of tensions in Gaelic-speaking Scotland.

5:50For example, given the large number of Campbells who owned estates in Jamaica, there's a tendency to transport McDonald's to Jamaica, which I'm sure is deliberate. And that was not just a pub joke in the 18th century. It was a living feud that the Campbells would buy McDonald's and treat them badly deliberately. That was the hope. I'm not sure it actually transpired, but a lot of people were transported who in no way could be called Gaelic speakers. And it must be said also that they did suffer at times conditions akin to chattel slaves in that sick prisoners were thrown overboard. There were individual cases of brutality amounting to murder on board.

6:31The 18th century navy was not a place for bleeding hearts, it has to be said. There's a lot of very rough men there. It wasn't a place for bleeding hearts. They viewed these people as traitors and rebels. And women are transported too. That's important to note, and often without trial. You've got those who are forcibly transported, but they're not the only ones coming over, because you also have, after Darien and dreams of colony and colony wealth, you've got those who choose to go. And surely you must have some who actually, they just want a different life. After Culloden, they want to put all that behind them, and they want to try something new where the money is at.

7:06So you do get people who want to try something new. the sojourners are much more common than full-scale emigrants. People tend to go for a period, make money, and come home. This again goes back very early. And when there are Scots, for example, in Dutch Curaçao in the 1630s, there are Scots settlers on Nevis by the 1660s. And by the 18th century, a situation whereby the middle of the 18th century, 60 % of doctors in Antigua and neighboring islands are Scots or Scots trained, and Scots are providing up to half of the assembly members in various of the West Indies. So there's a very strong plantation, Scottish elite growing both there and on the American coast by the later 18th century.

7:56And there's also, of course, Scottish colonization, indirect Scottish colonization, particularly in the case of Georgia, where Oglethorpe, who is the founding colonial leader of the Georgian colonisation in the 1730s, brings in a lot of Scots because Oglethorpe is effectively himself a Jacobite sleeper. His sisters are both Jacobite agents. And you write this astounding statistic in your book, the latter half of the 18th century, up to half the whites in Jamaica, and 80 % of those in Antigua are Scots. There is a very marked presence. When they get there, I mean, if you've got in such numbers and such percentages, which are actually jaw-dropping, do they transplant the clan loyalty when they come over to the New World or, you know, wherever they end up?

8:41And what are their networks like? Is it just sort of like a little Scotland? You know, we have that term, little Englander, but do you have a little Scotlander mentality in these New Worlds? One of the things that black enslaved people describe Scots as in the West Indies is shellfish because of their habit of sticking together and to any surface. They also comment that English people don't tend to know each other, but Scots do. So that's from an enslaved person's perspective that Scots always seem to recognize and accommodate other Scots. It isn't by family or clan. I would say it's by nation.

9:18Are there any clan chiefs out there by this stage, or are the chiefs often sitting at home and sending their clansmen abroad? The McNabs end up in Canada, doesn't he? But that's a bit later. I'm not sure that there are any chiefs of the name operating in the Caribbean or the American coast by the mid-18th century. There are some that undertake this in the 19th. Of course, what happens, and we'll get to that, is that there are different kind of chief emerges in fairly short order, which is the Native American Scottish chief. Get to that in a second. You also write, Murray, that there are Scots-Masonic lodges founded across the Caribbean and, even more remarkably, branches of a fife sex club.

9:57Tell us about that. That made me drop my breakfast as well. So, yes. Does it do what it says on the tin? It does. It does. Oh, right. Discuss, Murray. You mean you want to know what happened at Beggar's Benison meetings in the West Indies? Well, of course we do. Is it all about sex? Is it basically a knocking shop? Is that what it was? No, it's not a knocking shop. It's a sort of masturbation club. Sometimes naked women were imported to aid the meditation of the members. The horrible detail is that the dish, the central dish survives in many cases in provincial museums in Scotland. What are you talking about?

10:34I mean, I know, look, I know you're in a club being Scottish, but this is going to be absolutely mind-blowingly mad to everybody. So just a whole bunch of blokes. This is the 18th century libertines. There's a fantastic book about it by a guy called Faramir's Dabirwalla called The Origins of Sex. It has a whole chapter on Scottish sex clubs and this behaviour. There are also china and silver dildos surviving from the Beggas Benesneris. Can I just say that on my list for today or ever was not Murray Bittig saying dildo, but it's okay. It's all right. There was also a branch in St. Petersburg, if you wanted.

11:09So it was widespread. Now we've opened that can of worms, so to speak. The art collector Oliver Hoare had a sale of Scottish ivory and walrus ivory dildos about 10 years ago. There is a catalogue if you look online. Can I just say, when people ask me, what is the difference between working on Empire and working at the BBC, this last two minutes, that would be the difference I will refer you to. You did ask. You did ask. I did. I did. The Origins of Sex is the go-to book for this. Fadimez Dabirwala, it's an absolutely jaw-dropping book. Anyone that thought the 60s were the first big libertine era should go to the mid-18th century chapters in this book.

11:51And it's just astonishing. So, you know, although you have these sojourners who are doing weird things around bowls and clubs, I had no idea existed. I had no idea. Absolutely no idea. But the greatest number of people, and I'm just looking, again, this is a fact in your book, latter half of the 18th century, still 90 % of this burgeoning Scots community in Jamaica were enslaved. There are very, very rich people and there are really quite beleaguered Scots. There are beleaguered Scots, though I wouldn't want to call it enslavement. And sometimes, it must be said, some of those sold in the quayside were instantly liberated.

12:28That happened at least one well-attested case where Scottish landowners bought them and freed them in South Carolina. But it could go either way. You could either end up in the hands of a Klansman or in the hands of a Klan rival. I think unless you had reason to dislike the person, you were likely to get reasonably good treatment if you were bought by a Scot, if you weren't actually released. But then there are figures, I think it's Lewis Hamilton, who's actually executed in 1773 in Jamaica, who's a serial killer. He actually kills enslaved people. So there are some really, really extraordinarily unpleasant individuals.

13:04I mean, even especially in an unpleasant world, unpleasant individuals out there, they are all involved. Hamilton, of course, runs out of room. He's a doctor, by the way, or makes it even madder, runs out of room in the 1770s. There are an enormous number of people out there who are making a great deal of money, and they're repatriating it to Scotland. One of the things that also happens, I think it's worth saying, is that they have a number of mixed race children who are often schooled in Scotland, though sometimes they're not. But William Davidson, who becomes schooled in Scotland, who was executed for his part in the Cato Street conspiracy against the British government in 1820, and of course, perhaps the most famous one of these relatives who's in that lovely painting by David Martin now in Schoom Palace is Dido Bell, who's the great niece of the Earl of Mansfield, William Murray, who gave the conditional judgment against the legality of slavery in England in 1773.

14:00And who lived in the very grand Kenwood House in London, where the FT Festival takes place today. And this story that you're telling, you know, I mean, this is the origin story of people like Alexander Hamilton. You know, the famous Alexander Hamilton, you know, his nickname or his pejorative that was used, particularly by John Adams, was Creole Bastard, because there was said to be some Creole blood in his past. So it's illegal to hold slaves within Scotland, and yet it is legal to transport people from Scotland. So, for example, you get McDonald's transported to Jamaica by the Campbells. You get Scots traded from their homes by landlords.

14:38You have people kidnapped from Skye to be sold as indentured servants in 1739. 500 boys stolen from Aberdeen in 1740. But it is actually illegal to steal the boys, really, but they are nonetheless stolen and traded. We talked before with you, in fact, about Bunce Island with Richard Oswald. So, you know, this is a mighty loophole. You can't do it at home, but you can do whatever you like. Look, can we move on from the Caribbean just very quickly to talk about the Scots in North America and particularly interested in their interactions with Native Americans? And also, can we also talk about the associations with the Ku Klux Klan?

15:14Because that's also very interesting. But let's start from the very beginning. We're talking about the period between 1700 and 1815, and you estimate 100 ,000 Scots left for North America then. Same situation, same way that they leave as the Caribbean experience? So a lot of Scots go to North America for military service. Seven years war. Yeah, seven years war. So ultimately, the British army presence in Scotland can only be dialed down. That's the decision taken in 1755-56 by having the Scots regiments exported to serve outside Scotland, far outside Scotland at scale. And often they're not particularly trusted because the Black Watch aren't given weapons till they arrive in Guadeloupe in 1759.

15:59No, they're distributed once they get to the West Indies. But in the North American sector, they served extensively. And in terms of rehabilitating their leaders, they took some of the most enormous casualties. So Simon Fraser, Lord Lovett's son, the master of Lovett, the Frasers who he commanded took 65 % casualties at Ticonderoga. That's in which date? That's 1758. So 647 out of 1 ,000 killed or wounded. Fighting the French. Yes, fighting the French. And actually, Wolfe's victory on the Plains of Abraham is only made possible because the French password is given by a bilingual officer who was formerly a Scottish officer in the French service, Captain MacDonald.

16:44Tell that story briefly because people may not be familiar with it. So you've got the Scots having to climb up the cliffs of Quebec in this crucial moment of the Anglo-French Wars and the Seven Years' War. Exactly. And the shock was that the troops, the British army, could assemble on the plains of Abraham. At the top of the cliffs. At the top of the cliffs and directly threatened Quebec. It's an extraordinary risky venture, but it only succeeds at all because Captain MacDonald is actually a former Scottish officer in the French service and is bilingual and can give the French password in a French accent to a Frenchman.

17:18That's a great story. Just go into that again, Murray, because we dealt with it last time with the Scots in India, but this crucial matter of the Scots having to, in a sense, prove themselves loyal Brits after 1745, after the Second Jacobite Rebellion, the Scots suspected massively of disloyalty across the board. And it is through service in the empire and through demonstrably loyal service at this period in this first major conflict after the 45 that the Scots are seen to rehabilitate themselves, and particularly their leaders. That's right. I think that a lot of the rank and fires, I suggest, pay the price for their leaders' rehabilitation, pay the ultimate price in no uncertain terms.

17:59So that's a significant part of the North American story, because many of these people are settled with land grants in North America after the war. It's an easy way, because land is short in the north of Scotland, and the desire to subdivide property is high, which is one of the reasons that leads to the clearances. So actually, it's better to have, if it's fertile, land in North America, because there's much less pressure on land. So many of them are settled that way, but there are also a significant number of merchants. Remember that by 1760s, Glasgow was more than 50 % of the UK's tobacco trade, and an awful lot of that is supplied by Scottish merchants for resale from Glasgow.

18:42So there are significant numbers of particular tobacco, though not excluding sugar, merchants right down the eastern coast of what becomes the United States. And many of these have become pretty rich by the 1770s and the beginning of the American War of Independence. Though actually, one of the things that is driving them also is the early development of St. Andrew's societies, which start, Scott societies start in Boston in the 17th century, and there are several of them by the mid-late 18th century. And they actually bring together, as they did right through the British Imperial period, their job is to ensure that Scots are advantaged and employed at the expense of everybody else.

19:29And that's what they do. But that doesn't mean they aren't necessarily progressive, inverted commas, in certain terms, because, for example, the Charleston St Andrews Society votes by 77 to 32 to support the colonists in 1776 against the crown. Now, that's interesting. What is more interesting is that you have all of these numbers in your head and you just pluck them out. Let me tell you, most people would be reaching for their own book to remind themselves. We're going to take a break here, but join us after the break when we talk about a truly remarkable man, John Ross, Paramount Chief of the Cherokee Nation.

20:08Welcome back. So we have now established that there are these very healthy scottish settlers who have come to north america some of them voting with the cause of american independence some not we haven't talked about the native american population the relationship with them and sort of key to this is this amazing figure john ross the grandson of john mcdonald now tell us about him and why we should all know his story because it is amazing so john ross is one of a number of Scottish Native American chiefs, but he is the only paramount chief and he is the longest serving paramount chief of the Cherokee Nation, effectively serving as chief for 38 years.

20:53He's a Scot, all completely 100 % Scot, and he is the paramount chief of the Cherokee Nation. That's amazing. I mean, yes. I'm not sure about 100%. In fact, some Cherokee who didn't like him pointed out he was only one an eighth Cherokee by blood during his lifetime. But because of matrilineal succession, effectively, I mean, Scots who overwhelmingly become the employers of the Hudson's Bay Company, who also make their way extensively as fur traders, and are much better at dealing with indigenous people in terms of getting money out of them and establishing a trading relationship with them than some other nations are, often end up marrying into important branches of Native American First Nations families.

21:35And because there's matrilinear succession, they can end up or their children end up as chiefs. And that's what happened to John Ross. Born in Alabama, his native name is Guisgui, which is mysterious little white bird. So he was born in 1790. He was always an important member of the Cherokee because of the matrilinear practice. And again, the Cherokee were an exogamous grouping. So women often married outside the Cherokee. So this tended to bring new blood into the system. He fought in the War of 1812 under Andrew Jackson, the future president. And then in 1814, he set up a tobacco plantation in Tennessee at a place which became Ross's Landing and is now Chattanooga.

22:19And the interesting thing is that one thing people do not realize about Native Americans was that they kept enslaved people. And there are about 20 enslaved black Africans on Ross's tobacco plantation. And he also, after the tobacco plantation, developed a ferry service between American and Cherokee lands across the Tennessee River. By the 1820s, there was increasing pressure in Washington to grab the Cherokee lands. And And because Ross was absolutely bilingual, he was sent effectively to be the chief negotiator. So the man we're talking about is you have to imagine a man with piercing good looks, dark hair, dark eyes, impeccably dressed, who has got a legal understanding as well.

23:11This is 1827, the state of Georgia, as Murray is saying, starts annexing Cherokee homelands. And it is 1830 when the US government passes the Indian Removal Act. And John Ross becomes the focal point for resistance of this. You know, we can't stop you with guns. We are outgunned and outmanned, but we can stop you with the law. And he becomes this, you know, just an extraordinary figure who argues, who, you know, writes his way out, if you like. Again, to use another Hamilton lyric. Just tell me, you know, under him, Paramount Chief, what are we talking about with the Cherokee Nation? Does he incorporate some of his Scottishness or do they incorporate some of his Scottishness in their identity as well?

23:51I think what we would just say is that the Scottishness was compatible. And you can tell that from the popularity of tartan sales, to put it bluntly, in the 18th and 19th centuries, Native Americans particularly wanted to have status tartan, red or bright yellows. And at One year's sale, for example, at Fort Vancouver at the end of the 1830s, about two miles of tartan, principally I think Royal Stuart McGregor and MacDonald, was sold to First Nations customers. McGregor is always one of the prettiest tartans. Exactly. But also giving that sense of importance, which the bright colours always carried.

24:39So the cultures are compatible to an extent. This is very much what we found in the last episode with the Scots in India, that the Scots are taking the remote postings in Delhi, Lucknow and Hyderabad and are far more apt to intermarry than the English who often stay in the presidency towns. And that you're finding a great deal of mixed race children fathered by Scots, most famously in the case of India, James Skinner, Skinner of Skinner's Horse. And, you know, you're talking about sort of these things being compatible. Now you've said it, I'm thinking of those many, many numerous sort of old, old photographs or portraits of Native Americans, First Nation Americans, wearing, you know, things that look a lot like the Glengarry cap, which is a really Scottish Highland thing.

25:21You know, that sort of like soft cap. And they are there now in those same headgear. To just skip ahead to emphasise the point, John Buchan, as Governor General of Canada, famously portrayed by Louis Karsh with full Indian chief's headdress, had 30 presentations of honorary tribal membership given to him by Native Americans, made one speech partially in Cree, and very much engaged in a very long tradition which they and he both recognised. But Murray, again to emphasise, John Ross is not a unique figure. John McDonnell is a Mohawk commander. William McIntosh is a Cree chief. Alexander McGillivray, in some ways, one of the most interesting of all of these people, is effectively plays off the Spanish against the Americans from his position as a Cree chief in Florida.

26:09So Ross is the leader of a most important single figure, but this is a significant grouping of people. How do we get from that? Intermarriage, intermingling, mutual respect, compatibility that you're talking about to this. Is it a myth or is it true that the Scots were the ones who set up the Ku Klux Klan in America? No, it's not really true. So it's a backformation. What's a backformation? I don't even know what that word is. What's a backformation? So the two ex-Colpah confederates who set up the Klan claimed, as many Americans do, Scottish ancestry, which may or may not be the case. It's not immediately clear.

26:48But in Birth of a Nation... Which is an epic film depicting a rather heroic posture to the Ku Klux Klan, that they are saving America. Exactly. The hero is Cameron, who is the southern gentleman who's effectively betrayed, not quite so much by Lincoln, but by Lincoln's successors and the treacherous Yankees, and also by the growth, rather exaggeratedly portrayed, of Black majority rule in post-Civil War America. And so the Cuckoo is strongly associated by 1915 with Scots, and also had already adopted certain Scottish features, for example, the Fiery Cross, the Cross Tyre. Why is that Scottish, the Fiery Cross?