260. Yalta: Signing Away The Fate of The World (Ep 5)

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0:28Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnand. And me, William de Rimpel. Who is wrapped up like an Arctic explorer because he's back in the UK. Bit of a shock. Look, we're picking up the baton in our big Yalta relay race. And we're right at the end. We're on the end stretch. And this is, I mean, just you've got to imagine what they are feeling because, you know, it's been a long, painful five days for them so far. All that caviar. I know, desperate. Well, I mean, the caviar and vodka is one thing, and also much less vodka for Stalin, because as we've been saying, he's been watering down his drinks while Churchill's been knocking them back.

1:09As Churchill tended to do. And also, it's really deeply criticised by his team. The more I read about it, the more I see that they are sick and tired of him turning up to meetings, completely sloshed. He starts with Bollinger in the bath in the morning, which is something that I should try to do. Bollinger on the bath rack is a good start today. So you've just leapt over my hurdle, which is I've never met anyone like that in my life. My grandmother was a bit like that. I remember when I used to go to stay with her when I was at Cambridge, and I thought of myself as this hard-drinking undergraduate.

1:42and she and my great aunt would meet for lunch at about 11.30 and start on the dry Du Bonet. Now there's a flashback drink at Du Bonet. Yes, you'd never see it anywhere again, but it was very much part of my childhood. And those two, my grandmother by this stage must have been in her early 90s and my great aunt was in her mid-90s. And these two old dames would knock it back and then they'd drink a bottle of red wine each day, each at table. I would be under the dining room table while they'd be larking around. My grandmother finally died aged 104. 104. So, I mean, you've lived the Yalta vibes.

2:20Can I just tell you a very, very quick, because we need to crack on with this, but a very quick Dubonnet story. You should explain what Dubonnet is. Dubonnet is an old-fashioned aperitif, which was fashionable in my youth in the 1970s, but which seems to have completely died out of common parlance. Well, I'm about to tell you this story. So my first job, I'd led a very sheltered life in Essex, as you know, never did anything. So Indian family, quite straight, never went out. Medical textbooks and also in my dad's waiting room were a whole bunch of lifestyle magazines from the 1970s. So I sort of devoured those, you know, doctors' waiting rooms.

2:55They just have loads of stacks, or they did in those days, stacks of old magazines. And I saw lots of adverts for Dubonnet. So the first time I went out, my first job, and my boss at the time was Amitabh Bachchan's brother. you know, very fashionable man around town, Ajithar Bachchan. And he said, I'm going to buy everyone a drink. And I did not want to look like the town Yoko. So I said, could I have a Du Bonet with a twist? Literally no idea what that was. I just said, Du Bonet with a twist. Because that's what the magazine from the 1970s, I mean, you know, 15, 20 years later, it wasn't fashionable, but I didn't know that because the magazines I'd read said that it was.

3:37And he looked very confused and then got me one. And he thought I was so fascinating that I would choose such an off-menu drink that he ordered one for himself as well. And we both instantly regretted it. Instantly. It's a horrible drink. No wonder it's died out. That's why it's dead. Dubonnet was fairly strong in itself. But my grandmother, great aunt, used to have a dry Dubonnet, which meant it was 50 % gin. Oh, good Lord. Anyway. The same generation as Churchill, those two. Now, now, now, now. Concentrating, concentrating. There is a fantastic account of Day Six in Yalta. I'm just going to read you a little bit from Daughters of Yalta, which is fabulous.

4:18And it's a firsthand account from a poor man, Robert Hopkins, who is 23 years old. He's the son of Harry Hopkins, one of the American delegation. And he is the photographer. This is poor Robert trying to herd cats. OK. First, Mr. President, I'd like to have Mr. Stettinius stand behind you with Mr. Molotov behind Marshal Stalin, Mr. Eden behind the Prime Minister Churchill. Then I'd like the others who participated in the deliberations to move in so they'll be included in the photograph. So it's a record of the conference. But no one's listening to him. So he's having trouble corralling all these three nations together, these statesmen.

4:54The senior military leaders are ranging free like wildebeest in the background. There are three large Oriental rugs laid out in front of them in the Italian courtyard at the Livadia Palace, where all of these talks have been taking place. So this is the very famous photo that you will all see when you look up Yalta. You've got Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin sitting in the row of chairs, waiting for the others to pose behind him. Churchill on the left, looking, as Hopkins remembered, Cherubik in his grey coat and furry Russian hat. And indeed, looking as if he has already had quite a lot of the Bollinger from his bathroom already.

5:26In quite a lot of the pictures, he's sort of giggling and cackling and he's got a cigar. Yes. I mean, dare I say, in an unserious mood. Roosevelt's in the middle, smoking on a cigarette. And he's really very, very unwell. And remember, he wanted to leave early and they just don't want him to go. So he's got this naval cape over his shoulders because he is so cold and so feeling ill on Stalin. I wondered what it was. It looks like he's going to the opera. Yes, indeed. So poor old Hopkins is trying to get all the background cast to just look at the camera. But what he notices is that nobody, nobody's listening to him.

6:03The delegates are behaving like a group of unruly school children having a class picture taken. No one is listening to the instructions. So the photograph that you see after all of that and poor Hopkins trying to get them in order is one where none of the background are looking at the camera. You've got the three of them looking in different directions. Literally no one is sort of recording this with posterity. It is such a fabulous photograph. Churchill is laughing his head off. Stalin's looking in the wrong direction. The chiefs of staff are chatting to each other at the back. And that is the image of the Yalta Conference that we will all live with for the rest of our lives.

6:41There is a less disorganized one, which is on the front of my favorite book, which I recommend again. Sergei Plokhi's Yalta, The Price of Peace. Shall I tell you about that one? So that one's taken by a Red Army captain called Sam Ray Gori and that as well. The photograph stories are so wonderful. So, you know, he is trying to take this photograph. And of course, because it's the Russian photograph, so they're all much more in order because Stalin's barking at them. They're all scared of him. but he takes this photograph he thinks he's got the image and in his haste because you know his hands are slightly shaky because you do something for Stalin you do hands shake he opens his camera before rewinding the film and he thinks and he thinks he has ruined the film and gory who knows Stalin personally vets official photographs of himself has 10 minutes of pure hell where he thinks I'm going to die my life is hanging by a thread indeed that's what he said and luckily when he gets to the the dark room that the shots are undamaged and that is your photograph which is also the photograph that uh exists in Pravda and that one is is a wonderful one you've got um all three of them getting on very well apparently this picture this is the picture that makes it look as if the big three are all absolutely on the same page Churchill is smirking with a cigar on his mouth.

7:55Roosevelt is looking towards Churchill, but maybe slightly past him. And Uncle Joe is sort of leaning in, looking as if they're all getting on like a house on fire. You don't want to detect that the hope that Cold War was about to break out a year later. And Europe would be ripped into pieces. Now, draw your attention to the photographs, because I think they symbolise the entire Yalta Conference, which is there's this projected image of look at us all together. But there is absolute disarray in the background, really seriously disarray with people. We've talked about this in the last couple of episodes, going behind each other's backs, having secret meetings with each other and not telling their allies.

8:32And it's pretty messy. So look, let's get back to the day itself. So they have their 4.30 as usual. They start their big meeting. They do this every day in Yalta. Just to remind people that it's the foreign ministers who get together in the morning and try and thrash out the details from the day before. And then the grown-ups, the big three, Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill, meet at 4.30. And at that time, they have what they call the plenary session, where the future of Europe is about to be, and the world, the wider world, Asia too, is discussed. And these are some of the most crucial hours, because from this, the map of the world will be changed for the next, well, what is it, 50 years.

9:15But the foreign ministers can't agree. And this actually sets up the afternoon. And it's kind of like a theme of the conference where they send the foreign ministers off and say, do the work. And in the evening, we'll, you know, we'll agree things will be sort of beneficent. Or that's certainly what Roosevelt is hoping. That's what he wants. He wants this to be a huge legacy building, epoch making conference. The peace will be won. You know, we are going to remake the world in a better image. But the thing is, they haven't been able to agree. And that's because, again, the subject of Poland has come up.

9:50And there is this huge, again, row over who should lead Poland. Now, it's kind of a redundant conversation because the Soviets have already got their friendly government in, the Lublin government. You can say that this for the entire conference, that it's held with the Soviets already in control of all of Eastern Europe. And no one wants to go to war again. In a sense, nine-tenths of it is settled before they ever actually sit down at the table, which is why it results in this catastrophe for Eastern Europe, which anyone all the way from Berlin eastwards regards as the Great Betrayal. Exactly that.

10:31But do you remember the last time that Poland was raised, there was this kind of really odd statement that was wafted by the Soviets to try and shut everybody up, which is, we will have some kind of democratic process sometime in the future. We'll do a thing. We're not saying what the thing is, but it'll be a thing. And it's going to, yeah, it's going to be a democratic thing. No, totally. It's going to be, you know, on democratic sort of. Absolutely no details of any sort, exactly. No, but Churchill has completely had time to think about this and in the sobriety of the morning thinks, actually, this is not okay.

11:01We need to put the wording of what this new government in Poland, after all, we went to war because of Poland. That was the reason we entered the war. We need to know what it is. So they start then in the afternoon thrashing out how this government is going to be formed because they want some clarity now. Quite rightly, it's the most sort of nebulous offering that the Soviets have made. So they start talking about having the addition of non-fascist and anti-fascist politicians. That's very important. And they don't think the Soviets will object to that because they don't like fascists. But they also want to have ambassadors who will observe this, you know, at some point in the future, Soviet promised election to make sure that it is actually a democratic election.

11:47Now, of course, Molotov has had time to think this over too. He sees what the foreign ministers are talking about. He goes back to Stalin and goes, they want to send observers. Stalin goes, bugger that? No. Why would we agree to this? Why would we have this? Now, all of this is wafting around before they even sit down for their plenary session in the afternoon. So Churchill knows that there is a wriggle maneuver on and Poland will very easily be betrayed in the future. He also knows Roosevelt has not got his back because Roosevelt, for some reason, and he doesn't know these private conversations that are going on, promising chunks of China, Roosevelt's own ally, to the Russians.

12:31He doesn't know that Stalin thinks he's got it in the bag and is just basically wafting them along because he has very little respect for Churchill in these talks. So he starts pushing the issue. No, we've got 48 hours of these meetings left. Polish democracy is important. I think we need, and I think the phrase he says, everyone is eager to put in the stirrup and be off. We want to leave, especially Roosevelt. He's halfway out the door already. So can we please sort out this wording? And what happens when things get really hard? They take a break. They just always take a break because Roosevelt can see that these things are going to sort of derail the talks.

13:11We'll circle back to it. Roosevelt is, at the time and afterwards for historians, the Sphinx that no one can really understand. And looking back on this conference from where we stand now, you keep thinking that if only Roosevelt had focused a bit more on Eastern Europe, there could have been a different outcome. Also, the business that we talked about on earlier episodes, about how the Russians already know, because of intelligence leaks, all the red lines of the Western negotiations. And they know that they can hold the line they want to without the West knowing their red lines. And subsequently, when the Soviet archives were opened after 1989, it was very clear that the Soviets could have been pushed a bit further, that they could have been persuaded to move the borders.

13:58They could not believe how lucky they were getting. Absolutely. I mean, they couldn't believe their luck, but they also have strategies and pushback. So, you know, while Poland is sort of percolating in the background, mischievously, the Americans say, you know, because they know that Churchill's going to kick off. They say, we should actually also talk about the role of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council that we are forming. And we should talk about territorial trusteeships for other countries. The phrase in itself, territorial trusteeship, what the hell does that mean? For former colonies, wasn't it?

14:30That was the phrase. Well, that's the thing that he slips in. Former colonies. So Churchill's like, what? The British Empire is made up of, what are you talking about, former colonies? The language is a complete red flag because this is a direct attack on the empire. What on earth does he want meddling other countries to talk about the colonies after the war, even if they are former colonies? He gets up in a great agitation and he starts doing the hammering on the table that his team are quite embarrassed by that he does fairly often. He's a great jabber of tables. Stalin does it not so often, but when he does it, everybody sort of wets themselves.

15:10But under no circumstances, Churchill insists, will he ever consent to 40 or 50 nations thrusting interfering fingers into the life existence of the British Empire. Again, we should perhaps remind listeners that Churchill all his life had seen himself as the great defender of the British Empire. From his 20s in the Northwest frontier through to the Boer War, his entire life was about defending the British Empire. So this guy now, in his old age, is not going to see his final act in a sense. And he's aware that this may be his final act, giving away everything he's fought for all his life. He's failing to defend Poland.

15:50And now, suddenly, Roosevelt has suddenly used a turn of phrase that makes it sound like he's carving up the British Empire. So, Roosevelt is really, if you look at Stasinius' recollections of this, they are genuinely startled because they weren't talking about the Empire. They were talking about something else, but that's how touchy it is with Churchill. So, they're sort of like, what? And they say, no, no, no, no, we weren't talking about the British Empire. We were talking about liberated areas taken from the enemy, like the Japanese islands in the Pacific, would you calm down? But Churchill still, that wording is not good for him.

16:27And he thinks everyone's ganging up against him and he sits down shaking with rage, stabbing the table saying, never, never, never. And they have to call another recess for him to calm down. But his team are also not at all happy with Churchill's performance. They can see him A, arriving often a little bit worse for wear from the morning bully. and they're also aware that his sort of histrionic passion, which plays so well on the radio, we remember Churchill because of those radio speeches. We will fight on the beaches and this sort of stuff. But it doesn't work so well at the negotiating table where the kind of cool of Stalin's preparedness and calm gets much better results.

17:11Well, they're all fans of Uncle Joe. I mean, he's already been on the front page of Time magazine. He's going to be on Newsweek very shortly. I mean, you know, the guy is the guy of the hour. So after the recess, after he's calmed down, they get back on Poland, which is not going to improve anybody's indigestion at all. And again, it goes round and round and round about, you know, ambassadors. No, I don't want ambassadors. I don't want people observing any elections. You've just got to trust us. Look, we're in Poland right now. We're saying to you it's going to be democratic. Don't stop worrying about it.

17:39Stop worrying about it, say the Soviets. But it's getting stuck again. And Roosevelt starts literally pleading with everyone, just, you know, what are you doing? And he says, we are now very near an agreement, a little more work done by the foreign ministers. We'll work this out. We'll settle this. He says, it's only a matter of words and details. I mean, it's a lot more than that. So, you know, they try, again, not to get bogged down in Poland, but they're getting bogged down in Poland. And then Stalin does this clever thing, which is, OK, well, we'll circle back to Poland. The circling back to Poland is a theme of the ALTA conference.

18:12It's like, we'll just put the grenade in the middle of the table and we'll just talk about the fruit basket over here. They do it every time Poland comes up. So then Stalin says, let's just talk about the joint declaration on a liberated Europe. So this is a statement. The whole point of Yalta is there are going to be statements and communiques about a pathway forward in a peaceful world. And it's been drafted by the United States. It's been approved by the foreign ministers. It's a page and a half long. And it's got all these sort of high-flown ideals of what the new world is going to be. And Roosevelt sees this as his legacy speech in a sense.

18:45His document. Yeah, exactly. So it speaks of re-establishing order in Europe to allow, and this is a phraseology from the document, liberated peoples to destroy the last vestiges of Nazism and fascism and to create democratic institutions of their own choice. And it will uphold the rights of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they live. Molotov says, how about your statement? And he looks at Stalin. This is going too far. It seems like quite a nice thing. this is going too far. And then Stalin, they do this double act because he's obviously told Molotov, Stone asked, you go in hard like we always do and I'll do that.

19:24Calm down, it's not worth it. And Stalin says, don't worry, we'll work it out. We can deal with it in our own way later. The point is the correlation of forces. What does that mean, the correlation of forces? That we need to get the war done. We just need to get our stuff sorted. We need to get there first and let's just not do anything. But again, you see the sort of role reversal. And you have then on this declaration something extraordinary that happens, William. What does Stalin do? He backs down, as it seems. Which is unthinkable, yeah. Looks like to everybody he's backing down. And what does he say?

19:59He says that he will accept it subject to a small amendment. That support will be given particularly, quote, to the political leaders of those countries who had taken an active part in the struggle against German invaders. And Roosevelt points out, as far as he's concerned, the declaration would apply to, quotes again, any areas or countries where it was needed, including Poland, where the elections would be the first practical test of the declaration. And this looks like Stalin has given ground, but Stalin knows that he controls Poland. And there's not much that the Allies are going to be able to do.

20:35And it's a very, very long way from the Western front line. What are you going to do? You have your declaration and we'll see, is basically the mood at the table. But everybody just hears what they want to hear. So those who want to hear that Stalin's backing down on this, they're satisfied. This is a very important point. I'm always looking back to Sergei Hplokhi, who's been in the Soviet archives once they were released from the mid-80s onwards. And what he is very interesting about is that there is no official record of Yalta. So it isn't like they all agree on the exact word. On how it went.

21:09Yeah, how it went. And it's very clear in the archives that everyone is coming away from each session with completely different ideas of what has actually been agreed. And the Soviets read it completely differently. And whether this is partly because of the problems of translation and whether the interpreters are spinning things. May I venture an opinion? It is Roosevelt deliberately using ambiguous language. I know. It's the problem with Roosevelt, who's trying to be the peacemaker, using ambiguous language and actually shirking away from the points of contention, because what he wants is for this to work.

21:48But what working means is just getting through the bloody eight days and having something, right? That's it. And his two main goals, which are achieved, which is bringing the Soviets into the war against Japan and the creation of the United Nations. And if he can walk away with those two, he regards it as a win. But Churchill is not getting anything he wants. No, but even for Roosevelt, when this idea is of, you know, sort of only giving these concessions as Stalin wants to those who have actively struggled against and fought with the Nazis. He's, you know, not interested in the smaller states, but he is really interested in the smaller states.

22:22Roosevelt says look like Caesar's wife they must meaning them the people in Yorta must be above suspicion and Stalin comes back Caesar's wife had that reputation but in fact he says darkly she had her sins and again these sort of statements sort of hang over the table meaning yes yes you talk about Caesar's wife and we have to be completely transparent and honorable about this but you know the woman was a bit of a bit of a goer on the side and everyone just moves on Moving on, as if that's now settled. So the declaration anyway kind of gets passed through. Stalin lets his statement hang in the air.

22:58It's not worth the row right now because it'll work out in his favor in time. He's absolutely sure of it. And as the session draws to a close, Churchill says, the Allied offensive in the West has begun. So he's got big news. 100 ,000 British and Canadian soldiers have attacked at dawn. Operation Veritable is proving a success and advancing at some speed. So this offensive, Anita, is around Niemegen. Anyone that remembers the movie A Bridge Too Far, these are the three rivers. Is it the Mars, the Rhine? What's the third one? The Wall. That's it. And this is the fatal German resistance, which had meant that the Allies are late to Berlin.

23:39The Soviets are already there, and their inability to cross this first time is what, in a sense, gave way half of Eastern Europe. But now, finally, 100 ,000 troops have attacked at dawn and have advanced some distance. So this great block, which is one of the main problems behind Yalta, is now finally being sorted out. And there's a second wave from the US Ninth Army, which will push forward the next day. Right, so in the evening It's just an interesting observation And we really owe so much to the daughters of Yalta Who go along to this And some of their records are invaluable Also, everyone's keeping diaries at this point Roosevelt's back at his Lavadia Palace chambers And he's having an alcoholic rubdown And his doctor's very worried about it What does that mean, alcoholic rubdown?

24:27It's just a massage It's a massage But with sort of raw vodka rather than oil? Is that the idea? Not vodka, no Sort of liniment to ease your muscles That's what it is. Yeah. So he's having that and he's always worried about the president who seems to be falling to pieces. But he finds him in a pretty sort of upbeat, buoyant kind of mood. And it is with his old smile, says the doctor, that he announces, Roosevelt this is, I've got everything I came for and not at too high a price. Stalin had agreed to full participation in the UN. Furthermore, the Soviet Union will enter the war against Japan at an early date.

25:02the only fly in the ointment is Poland. Now that fly is the thing that's keeping Churchill, who's not having an alcoholic rub at all, really stressed out in the Rontsov Palace. He's cabling his cabinet, trying to press on Poland, talking to the exiled government in London saying, look, this is what's happening behind your back. Tell them this is what's happening. He says, we need to make sure we understand what's going on in Poland because Because once that train starts moving and we're not on it, we have no control about the direction of Poland. We're not enormous fans of Churchill on this podcast.