In short
Simon Bolívar’s path to Venezuelan independence (1810–1812) and the collapse of Spanish control after Napoleon’s invasion, including the “war to the death” logic and the rise of José Tomás Boves’ “legions of hell.”
Guest backgrounds
Anita Arnon and Willie Durhampool (Empire podcast hosts). They discuss Bolívar and Francisco de Miranda’s roles, with historical parallels (e.g., Algeria/WWII, Soviet fragmentation).
Key claims
Spanish rule persisted via Creole elites running plantations/mines while communication between colonies was punishable by death. Bourbon reforms centralized power by replacing Creoles with peninsulares and tightening taxes/trade, fueling politicization. Napoleon’s 1808 invasion caused a Spanish constitutional crisis, creating colonial autonomy. Venezuela’s 1811 independence was declared by congress, but Bolívar and Miranda pushed it. The 1812 earthquake (Holy Thursday, March 26) devastated pro-independence cities; royalists counterattacked under Domingo de Monteverde. Bolívar rejected democracy, avoided openly ending slavery, and escalated brutality (e.g., executing ~800 Spanish prisoners; “war to the death”). Miranda’s 1812 capitulation led Bolívar to arrest him, and Miranda died in Cadiz.
Notable examples
July 5, 1811 independence; March 26, 1812 earthquake; Monteverde’s counteroffensive; Bolívar’s execution of ~800 prisoners; Boves’ mixed-race/indigenous-led brutal forces; Bolívar’s flight to Colombia (1813) and later refuge in Jamaica/Haiti.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOColonial Control and Creole Tensions
1:13 to 2:22
Explore how the Spanish crown maintained control and the role of Creoles.
“So Bolivar, this young man, aged 22, he'd experienced a lot of personal tragedy.”
Bourbon Reforms and Their Impact
2:22 to 4:26
Understand the reforms enacted by the Bourbon dynasty and their consequences for Creoles.
“And this is the background to everything that we're going to be describing in this episode.”
Economic Factors and Colonial Discontent
4:26 to 6:52
Discussion on the economic changes and rising tensions in the colonies.
“The whole aim of this is that Spain's economic growth is central.”
The Effect of Napoleon's Invasion
6:52 to 12:39
Analysis of how Napoleon's actions in Spain led to a crisis in the Spanish Empire.
“So, that depletes the pockets and the bank accounts of those families that you relied on to do all the work.”
The Rise of Bolivar and the Call for Independence
12:39 to 14:06
Explore Bolivar's role in advocating for independence during a turbulent time.
“Once the center goes down, you get Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and all these other satellites breaking off.”
The Political Maneuvering of Bolivar and Miranda
14:06 to 21:04
Explore the covert strategies of Bolivar and Miranda in their quest for independence.
“you know what, I know you're talking about autonomy, but I want independence.”
Venezuela Declares Independence
21:04 to 21:48
Learn about the significant events leading to Venezuela's declaration of independence in 1811.
“So quite often we find that sort of, you know, great heroes retrospectively get given jobs that they haven't done.”
The Aftermath of Independence Declaration
21:48 to 22:01
Understand the challenges Bolivar faced after Venezuela declared independence.
The Earthquake and Its Impact
22:01 to 24:02
Examine how the 1812 earthquake affected the independence movement in Venezuela.
“So 1811 is this crucial year for Bolivar and for Venezuela, but his victory and the victory of Venezuela, the independence of Venezuela, is short-lived.”
Divisions Among Revolutionary Forces
24:02 to 28:03
Discover the internal divisions and challenges faced by the revolutionary forces in Venezuela.
“And Bolivar hears this from one particular person, although it's being said from church to church to church.”
Show all 16 chapters
Bolivar's Complicated Relationship with Slavery
28:03 to 29:48
Explore how Bolivar's views on slavery were affected by his upbringing and the Enlightenment.
“In a sense, we try to read these people backwards and turn them into Castros and Guevara's, and they're not.”
The Struggle for Independence in Venezuela
29:49 to 31:26
Understand the chaotic military landscape and Miranda's challenges during the fight against Spanish forces.
“When he's with his own Creole allies, the ones who are running the other junters and have the power, he tones down anything he might have thought about liberating the enslaved population.”
Bolivar's Response to Miranda's Capitulation
31:27 to 34:05
Learn about Bolivar's personal betrayal of Miranda and the implications of this decision.
“He's sort of riding from militia to militia saying, come on, let's fight.”
Bolivar's Declaration of Total War
34:06 to 36:00
Examine Bolivar's infamous decree for total war and its effects on the revolution.
“he makes this decision that will define his military career and also stay in his legacy forever.”
The Brutality of the Legions of Hell
36:01 to 38:15
Discover the role of José Tomás Boves and the extreme violence in the fight against Bolivar.
“This is again revolutionaries turning to really intense bloodshed and against all the kind of established rules of law and respecting prisoners, which is very much around in the 18th century.”
Bolivar's Dilemma and Political Complexities
38:16 to 40:30
Delve into the complexities of Bolivar's character and decisions during wartime.
“the enslaved people, they say to these indigenous people riding behind Boves and the cowboys, if you like, they say, you will have freedom and we will give you land if you fight and if you kill them.”
Transcript
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0:58Anita:Hello and welcome to Empire for the second part of our series on Simon Bolivar. Now, if you want to hear all the episodes, you don't want to wait. You just go and join Empire Club at empirepoduk.com. That's empirepoduk.com. But let me just remind you all and, Willie, where we left off in the last episode. So Bolivar, this young man, aged 22, he'd experienced a lot of personal tragedy. We talked about that in the last episode. And we sort of found him on top of the sacred mound, Montesacro Hill in Rome, vowing to remove the Spanish colonial power from his homeland. And we described the huge vastness of the Spanish empire and how it was managed and a key part of how the Latin American colonies were kept under Spanish control.
1:44Anita:So just to recap a little bit, you had a local Creole elite that were doing all the work of senior civil servants. And just a reminder that Creole doesn't necessarily in this instance mean mixed race, as it does today, but people born in the colonies, like Bolivar himself, Spanish parents, but born in what is now called Venezuela.
2:05William:And this is going to be a tension that runs through this episode, the struggle for control over this incredibly wealthy colony between the local Creole elite, which is what Bolívar is part of, and the Spanish crown, which is trying to claw back control. And this is the background to everything that we're going to be describing in this episode. But Anita, tell me, how did Spain at this point hold on to such a vast empire with such a small population back in Europe and its own economy in decline at this period?
2:36Anita:Well, through families like Bolívar's family, you know, these are the Creole elites who owned the colonies, ran the colonies, the plantations, the mines. They were the ones who kept the indigenous and enslaved populations in check. And this is really key to why things are difficult here. Because remember, we were talking about these different vice royalties, you know, different sort of viceroys, as India had one in charge or overarching. In a place as big as this, you have different control centers. And what is odd and really special about what goes on in South America under the Spanish is that communication between the colonies was punishable by death.
3:16Anita:So, they were sort of setting up, and I suppose this must be a centralized fear among the Peninsularis and the Spanish, that they wanted to keep their possessions fragmented. I'm always minded of what Mary Beard said about Roman slaves, that if they had a uniform, they could see how many of them there were. The elites would have no hope, no chance. That was a really striking fact. That is very much the thinking in the Spanish mind as well, that if they see how they outnumber us, if they start talking laterally rather than deferring upwards to the Spaniards that we've put in charge right at the top of the tree, then how are we going to keep control?
3:55Anita:It was a good point, but it was one that people would realise. Yeah.
3:59William:And this is going to be what's running through this episode. In the 18th and 19th centuries, over 300 years of colonial rule from Spain are showing distinct sides of cracking.
4:10Anita:In the 18th century, let's start from there. You've got the new Bourbon dynasty in Spain. And they start to think, actually, we need a little more control than we've had before. So, they start initiating a series of reforms on how their American territories are going to be administered. The whole aim of this is that Spain's economic growth is central. It is all about extraction. What happens to Spain is all that is important. So, whatever is happening in the colonies, tough for them. They just have to bolster what we are doing and where we are. So, the reforms are quite convoluted, but let me just boil it down to something very, very simple.
4:49Anita:They are basically creating conditions for a growing politicization of the colonies because what they're going to do is going to really annoy people. Creoles who were in administrative roles, who were doing some very senior jobs. So, they were high level, but they weren't ever viceroys.
5:06William:You send in a viceroy, but the guys underneath that are all local.
5:09Anita:Everyone who's doing any work is going to be a Creole. But suddenly, this Bourbon reform says, you know what? Actually, that leaves us a little bit vulnerable. We are only going to put peninsulares, these officials born on the Spanish mainland in those jobs because these Creoles are kind of getting a little bit big for their boots.
5:29William:Uppity.
5:30Anita:Uppity, exactly. Uppity to use that horrific thing. And also, they start getting a little bit suspicious of the Catholic Church as well because the Catholic Church, their constituencies in the colonies are the colonists, right? So, they start thinking actually, they're going slightly off book as well. Not all of them. I mean, by and large, the church is very loyal to Spain, but there are these sort of renegades who are starting to think of themselves as an entity rather than sort of a Spanish loyalist.
6:00William:We should perhaps also mention, Anita, the reasons that this matters to the Spanish crown, the things that are being extracted. It's no longer presumably the massive flow of gold and silver, which kind of gushed open in the 16th and 17th century when Spain was just afloat with gold from Latin America. But there's still a lot of mineral wealth coming from this part of the world, copper in particular. But there's also this new product of cacao, which is being used for a luxury drink, hot chocolate. They haven't yet got chocolate bars, but hot chocolate is a posh drink across Europe and people will pay for it.
6:35William:And this is what Bolivar's family are making their money from.
6:37Anita:Under the pre-Borban reforms, they were making money. But what does change here? I mean, Because there has to be a change. There has to be a catalyst that makes radicals. And that is, actually, we're going to change the tax system and the trade system so that more profit flows into Spain. So, that depletes the pockets and the bank accounts of those families that you relied on to do all the work. Not only that, you're telling them they're going to have to pay more. You're also going to tell them that they're not going to have such senior jobs anymore. So this starts really cheesing off those Creole elites who have been doing all the work.
7:14William:This is something we're going to go into a lot more in the final episode, and it's very much central to that. But we should just flag up front that there is an ongoing debate about how you interpret Bolivar. Is he this sort of Che Guevara figure who's liberating the continent for the sake of it? Or is he, in fact, just representing his own class? Is he wanting to replace a Spanish king with someone that looks a bit like himself? and so this is something that's going to be running through all this well i mean i have
7:39Anita:some thoughts on this i have very strong thoughts on this but first you've always been a bolivar girl well no it's not that i just think it's i'm more skeptical i have to say it's not that at all what it is i think you know you can have a man who can do different things at different points in his life and so i think that's why it's important to follow his sort of trajectory his journey if you like to see what the motivations are and how they change him because he is not a No man is a constant, William, you know this. No man is fully formed. It's through this life story that you perhaps see how his priorities change.
8:11Anita:At the end, not going to blow it, but how maybe he looks back upon his own life and sees himself as a success or a failure. We'll come to that in a moment. We were talking about the changes that the Spanish had instituted. One of the reasons that they needed money was because of the Peninsular Wars. Now, Let's talk about those for a little while. So Napoleon invades Spain in 1808, and this triggers a constitutional crisis that will eventually shatter the Spanish Empire.
8:40William:And this is a big surprise, isn't it? Because initially they're allies, France and Spain.
8:44Anita:Yeah, but nobody, as you know, in this period of time, friendships, they fragment with startling regularity. And this is quite complicated. Okay. So I mean, just, but in essence, the old king, Charles IV is forcibly deposed by his own son, who then becomes King Ferdinand VII. Now, both appealed to Napoleon, who is a Frenchman, to say, can you sort this out between us? Who should it be? Should it be me or should it be my son?
9:12William:Sounds like a dangerous precedent to get him involved.
9:15Anita:It's just stupid. He's French, for goodness sake. And Napoleon is a land grabber. So, when is he going to look at a situation when a father and son are squabbling and looking to him to adjudicate who should be running Spain. He sees the opportunity. So he says, you know what, let's chat about this a bit more. Come to France. Let's have a cup of tea and talk about it. And so when they do, he says, right, it's going to be neither of you. Joseph, my brother, is going to be on the Spanish throne. Shock, horror, surprise. I mean, if only anyone could have guessed this could have been in Napoleon's playbook.
9:47William:Who would have guessed? Who would have guessed?
9:49Anita:Mad, isn't it? And you put your brother on the throne, you're going to send your troops to support him. So, French troops pour into Spain under the pretext of what they say is going to be a joint invasion of Portugal because Portugal is a troublesome entity and Spain has rubbed up against it for some time. We're going to come in and we're going to help you take over and send all our military garrisons in and we're going to sort that out for you. No declaration of war, but Spain and France supposedly allies, but suddenly you've got a French occupation of Spain. So, under the guise of let's help you with Portugal, they basically flood the place with French soldiers.
10:24Anita:And it is absolutely bonkers for a while because you've got one crown and three heads effectively claiming to be king. And so, the realignment of powers in Europe makes this all the more complicated. And you have different local junters who say, we don't like the French being here. We want them to be ours. In the name of this king, which king? Oh, that king. well, that's not our king. So, you know, you just have this kind of fragmentation within the country as well. The colonies, they're like, well, who is our king at the moment? You know, what is going on?
10:57William:This is a bit like the kind of French empire once Germany takes over France in the Second World War. What happens to Algeria? What happens to Vietnam and Cambodia?
11:06Anita:Right. So, yeah, if you don't know who's in charge, you kind of start running the shop yourself because all of those people that have been appointed who are answering to Spain, they're not getting very clear instruction because who are they getting instructions from? Who do they sympathize with? So, what happens in effect is that you get the Creole class, of which Bolivar's family was very much a part of. They start making decisions on their own. They get a taste of autonomy, a taste of what it is to run the show themselves. And when finally it is sorted out what's going on in Spain and Ferdinand VII returns to power in 1814, he comes back going, hang on a minute, what are these colonies doing?
11:43Anita:They're not listening. They've just been doing things on their own and he tries to restore absolutist rule. Now, by this time, the Creoles, even the moderate Creoles, had a taste of doing things themselves, probably running things a lot more effectively because they know the country, they know their people. Even the moderates start saying, which Spanish king? Who the hell are you? We've been doing this ourselves for a few years now. Why are you here? They start talking about self-governance. some, the less moderate ones, start talking about independence. And that really is the kind of the, you know, you were asking before, was Bolivar thinking, you know, along the lines of independence?
12:21Anita:Can't go into his head about this. But the theme at the time was independence started being talked about for the first time after Ferdinand tries to sort of become the heavy on the Creoles who've been running things in the absence of any clear direction.
12:35William:This has many parallels, whether you're talking about Algeria and Southeast Asia during the Second World War, or the fragmentation of the Soviet Union. Once the center goes down, you get Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and all these other satellites breaking off.
12:52Anita:It's a pattern as a template, isn't it? Yeah, exactly right. And in Venezuela itself, or what we now know as Venezuela, the Creoles are now meeting in secret to discuss how outrageous it is that the king far away, who has been absent and involved in a ridiculous squabble with the family and inviting the French into Spain, is trying to now act the heavy. So, they start talking about this. And there is this 30-year-old plantation owner who was the same 22-year-old who swore the oath on the hilltop in Rome that he would liberate his country. Simon Bolivar is in the mix around this table and very much steering the conversation to, we don't need them anymore.
13:37Anita:We don't need them. I've seen what they're like. I've seen what they do. They are chaotic.
13:43William:So let's return to Simon Bolivar. What is his place in all this? How does he end up back in Venezuela?
13:50Anita:So after his trip to Europe, Bolivar sailed back to Venezuela, where this resentment is bubbling away against the Spanish government. But Bolivar was far more radical than his peers around that table because he is saying, you know what, I know you're talking about autonomy, but I want independence. We don't need them anymore. We don't want them anymore. They are fools and buffoons, and they can't even control what's going on in mainland Spain. So, in 1810, he joins a diplomatic mission to London on behalf of the Royalist Junta in Venezuela. So, it's kind of undercover of being a Royalist, but you're actually, I mean, it's sort of spy crafty really.
14:32Anita:You're going to meet influential people and have a parallel conversation rather than the conversation that they are thinking you're going to have. And in Britain, it's interesting at this time, because there is covert support for this Spanish-American independence.
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14:50William:Presumably entirely self-serving.
14:51Anita:Of course, as always. If you break Spain, then you break their trade monopolies. And you break Spain, then their markets on the continent, they're open for business to you. So he goes there, Bolivar, and supposedly seeking British support for Ferdinand VII. But they're doing something else, having another conversation all together. And it's good to introduce another character in this.
15:20William:Francisco de Miranda, who's a very important part of the story, isn't he?
15:24Anita:He absolutely is. I mean, first of all, you know, our producer has described him as looking like Lucius Malfoy in Harry Potter.
15:29William:He does look very like Lucius Malfoy.
15:31Anita:He does. And he's got this sort of shock of slick back, white hair. You know, he could be a Targaryen. It's very white hair.
15:39William:Draco's dad is definitely.
15:42Anita:So, let's tell you a little bit about de Miranda because he's important. So, he's born in Caracas in 1750 in what was then New Granada, just to remind you of these vice regalties, Venezuela in new money. He had very wealthy parents like Bolivar, but unlike Bolivar, and this is why this whole Creole thing is quite a muddy mix, Miranda's father's ethnic purity was often questioned by the other elites. And that's not because he was mixed race black, and we've just described him as a Malfoy and a Targaryen, but it's because his father was an immigrant from the Canary Islands.
16:20William:Was that considered dodgier than the kind of mainland or why would the Canary Island be a - Darling, it makes him a mudblood in effect,
16:28Anita:because he's not straight from Spain, right? He's not a peninsulare. He's come from the Canary islands, well, they're the yokels from the Canary Islands. They're not like us. So, that is really, I think, interesting. We will carry on talking about this sort of Creole status and whether he was mixed race or not. Largely, I don't think he could have been, because if you did have any sort of mixed blood, they would go for you, even if your dad was from the Canary Islands, right?
16:55William:He is the Che of the 18th century. He fights in every revolution that's going. He's been in the American Revolution, he's in the French Revolution. His name's on the Art to triumph.
17:04Anita:Yeah. And he fought in the American Revolution. I like to think about him as a kind of like a Lafayette character. There's a revolution. I'm on my way. I'm on my way. Yeah. At the turn of the 19th century, Miranda was spending a lot of time in London. He also was all about Venezuelan independence. He'd been, as you say, in France for the revolution in America, saw what was possible. So, he thought, why not for my own homeland as well? He even leads actually a really, I mean, it's a failed attempt at independence in 1806. And then he gets booted out of Venezuela because he's an undesirable and he moves in exile to London.
17:42William:So in London, Bolivar is received by the then Foreign Secretary Marquis Wellesley, who's a very familiar character to anyone who knows their Indian history. He's the former governor general, arguably the most important governor general of the entire period. He is Richard Wellesley, the elder brother of the Duke of Wellington, at the time more famous than the Duke of Wellington, but now completely forgotten. He had been the man who got rid of all the pro-French courts in India. So he takes on Tipu Sultan, he overthrows the French in Hyderabad, and he conquers more of India than Napoleon conquers of Europe.
18:22William:So he is sitting here. He's one of the great francophobes of the period. And so he lets Bolivar into his web. And his web is in Apsley House at the centre of Hyde Park, where he's living in a slightly seedy existence with all his mistresses. And he's now an old man who's passed the best of his days.
18:42Anita:So true. But the person who smooths that introduction, remember, is Miranda. Miranda has a huge part to play in this because Miranda is so much seen as this wedge that can drive a space between Spain and its colonies that he can get people like the Marquis of Wellesley to see this man Bolivar from nowhere who's supposedly representing the king of Spain and who is doing no such thing. But they do, they kind of like each other, they get on with each other. And there are some very important seeds that are sown at this meeting with the Marquis of Wellesley-Apsley House because later on in this story, you are going to see 6 ,500 British volunteers joining Bolivar and actually, at one point, saving his life.
19:30Anita:But more of that to come. But it's not just Wellesley, actually. It's also the Foreign Secretary, George Canning, who is actively championing the cause of colonial independence, that these colonies should be free, which is so bonkers because Wellesley is a colonist.
19:46William:He's more responsible for enslaving half of India. Exactly.
19:50Anita:But not when it comes to Spain and her colonies. He's very outspoken about Spain and her colonies. You shouldn't have colonies at all. Let's go back to Bolivar. So he's had this successful meeting, Willie, in London. He's got the ear of people.
20:03William:So he now then heads back to Caracas and is shortly afterwards joined by his mate Miranda. And they form a political club under the disguise of the agricultural society. They're pretending they're talking about tillage and seed rotors and combine harvesters or whatever the 18th century equivalent of that is. In reality, of course, they are just discussing ways of getting rid of the Spanish now.
20:27Anita:Yeah. And so what they start doing is agitating. You know, they send out people, like minded people. And it is it is very cloak and dagger stuff because it's dangerous. What they're doing is very, very dangerous, particularly, you know, if Spain is trying to come down with an iron fist on those who are trying to wrest its colonies away. But the agitation is successful. And you have this very important date on July the 5th, 1811, Venezuela declares independence. It is the first Spanish American colony to do so. They have the numbers after the agitation of this, you know, sort of farmers club, supposedly this agricultural society, they gain a head of steam.
21:04William:So quite often we find that sort of, you know, great heroes retrospectively get given jobs that they haven't done. But this is not actually Bolivar himself declaring independence, is it?
21:13Anita:No, because I mean, who is he in the scheme of things really? So, it is the first national congress declares Venezuela's independence. But the two people pushing them to do it and assuring them that this is going to work, there are two. It is Bolivar and it is Miranda. And Bolivar was 28 years of age at this time. But what's important is he made a vow six years before that on a hilltop and it's just beginning to take shape. But you know what? It's very, very different declaring independence and being independent. So we'll have more of that after the break.
22:00William:Welcome back. So 1811 is this crucial year for Bolivar and for Venezuela, but his victory and the victory of Venezuela, the independence of Venezuela, is short-lived. In 1812, this dream of an independent country is crushed, both by military might of Spain and an act of God.
22:22Anita:Well, yeah, that's certainly the way that the Spanish... Well, you know, it depends how religious you are, to be honest. If you're an atheist, you're like, hmm, it's an earthquake. It is an earthquake.
22:33William:I call that an act of God. We've even done a secular reading of...
22:37Anita:Okay, fair enough. Well, it is a devastating earthquake. And the day that it strikes is kind of notable as well. It's on Holy Thursday, March 26th, 1812. And what happens with this earthquake, which is just so unlucky for the independence movement, is it particularly hits pro-independence cities.
22:56William:I told you it was an act of God. There's no question. This is the hand of the archangel Michael with his sword perfectly, taking out these revolutionaries and opportunities.
23:07Anita:Well, that's what the church says. So, that is what the church says. Do you remember in the last episode we were saying that those who are particularly loyal to the Spanish crown, the church was loyal and then there were certain members of the church who were being less loyal and that was worrying the peninsularis, the Spanish back at home. But by and large, when the cities that are pro-independence are hit very hard, and weirdly, the royalist strongholds are pretty unscathed, in a disaster that kills thousands of people. I mean, there are some estimates that suggest up to 20 ,000 people may have been killed by these earthquakes.
23:45Anita:Buildings are destroyed. Infrastructure is destroyed. What comes from the pulpit, unsurprisingly, is God hates a revolutionary. God hates all these people who are trying to break away from the Spanish king. Who the hell are they? They are not on the side of the angels. And Bolivar hears this from one particular person, although it's being said from church to church to church. And he responds to a priest's fire and brimstone sermon about how they're all damned and going to hell. And he says, this is attributed to him, if nature opposes us, we shall fight against it and force it to obey.
24:23William:It's very enlightenment, isn't it?
24:25Anita:Yeah, isn't it though? Isn't it? Exactly that. Tito Salas, who's the father of modern art in South America, a lot later, I mean, He paints this terrible tragedy, something that breaks the soul of Venezuela and these terrible earthquakes. So, it's certainly a thing that if you are from Venezuela, you know when God didn't feel like he was on your side.
24:47William:It's a rather wonderful painting. I'm looking at it now. Yeah.
24:50Anita:Yeah.
24:50William:And one of the wonderful reds and blacks and whites. It makes the whole earthquake look rather attractive. Of course. Which is presumably not what the…
24:58Anita:I don't think that's what the artist intended, but okay.
25:02William:So nature has punished Venezuela for declaring independence, but then the Spanish come in no uncertain manner. The Spanish Captain Domingo de Monteverde leads a determined royalist counteroffensive from the West. Anita, tell us what happens.
25:20Anita:Well, so the Republican forces are already depleted because, as I said, it was actually jolly bad luck that the earthquake hits their centers particularly hard. So, you know, they're struggling to mount any kind of effective resistance. And you've got regional militias and local leaders and, you know, no centralized control. There is a spirit of wanting freedom, but there is no organization behind how you get to that freedom.
25:47William:So, are the rebels in any sense coherent or are they all split up and divided?
25:52Anita:No, not at this point. No, I mean, the regional militias, you know, led by possibly rich and powerful men who are used to having their say in their particular region or plantation, but they may not be the best at, you know, leading a military force. And they're certainly not together.
26:08William:This sounds a bit like 1857 in India that we had in our mutiny series or our first War of Independence series where all these different landowners are rising up, but they're not coordinating with each other. And the imperial colonial forces, which are centralized and coherent, can take them out one by one. Similar sort of thing.
26:26Anita:Well, I mean, it's sort of been noted that they spend as much time fighting each other as they do fighting the empire. And the reason that they are as divided, apart from the fact that you've got these different people who aren't used to being told what to do, who are leading these military junters, is that you have also class and racial tensions. So, you have enslaved people, or padros, mixed race people, who are sometimes siding or often siding with the royalists because the royalists come in. And we saw this, did we not, with the British in the American Revolution. They are promising freedom to the slaves.
27:03Anita:They're just saying, you know what, if you side with us, If you side with the crown, we will grant you your freedom. These guys who are leading the revolution, they are your slave drivers. Recognize him, it's his plantation that you used to work on. Recognize him, it's him who's swallowed up your entire family and you've been working for for generations. Oddly, an enslaved population is siding with the country that demanded the fruits of their labor until this point in time.
27:33William:But is that a surprise? Because the Creoles who are declaring independence are the slave owners.
27:40Anita:Right. Well, it works. It works because it's a narrative that makes sense. I mean, you'd have to delete from your mind that the Creoles were driving them to work so that they could send stuff to the Spanish monarchy. I mean, you'd have to delete that from your mind. But if you can do that and you believe the promise, sure, of course you would side with them. Of course you would.
27:58William:But I think, again, we shouldn't expect 18th century revolutionaries to be Che Guevara. In a sense, we try to read these people backwards and turn them into Castros and Guevara's, and they're not. They're slave owners. They're plantation owners wanting more power and more control, which is a very different thing, albeit ones who've read a bit of Montesquieu and a bit of Voltaire.
28:19Anita:Yeah. I mean, I entirely don't disagree with this at all. Just remember in America, the founding fathers were slave owners. Yeah. We went through all that. It's exactly the same thing. But people go through a journey.
28:31William:That is the parallel, isn't it? It's Washington all over again.
28:34Anita:Yeah. Well, I mean, Jefferson in particular, all over again. So where does Bolivar fit into all of this? Shall we talk about Bolivar's attitudes towards slavery?
28:45William:You can read it both ways. There is enough evidence in his letters and different times of his life to interpret him in different ways.
28:52Anita:When he was young, he had a vested interest in this system because it's what his family did. It's what his family has always done. It's basically what made him a very, very rich an eligible bachelor. But, you know, he's also been steeped in these enlightenment ideas. He's had a teacher who has exposed him to enlightenment ideas. So, you know, he's got this own struggle happening within himself.
29:13William:I think consistently, I think I'm right in saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, Anita, that he's always against democracy. He doesn't believe Venezuela or Latin America or however he visited at this point.
29:24Anita:That they're capable of running their own shop.
29:25William:Yeah, he's capable of running it and he's not after a democratic system. So I think that's so interesting.
29:32Anita:I think it's such an important point because this is what actually puts him in a collision course with Miranda, who remember it was his brother in arms because Miranda does believe in that. Miranda does believe that the people should have a say in this new world that we're creating for them, whereas Bolivar is not. So just getting back to the slavery thing, even though he's been exposed to these enlightenment and thoughts. When he's with his own Creole allies, the ones who are running the other junters and have the power, he tones down anything he might have thought about liberating the enslaved population.
30:06Anita:So, if you give him the benefit of the doubt, why did he not speak out about ending slavery? You were talking about pragmatism before. The other reason, I mean, back to the battle with the Spanish, the reason that there was a great difficulty in pushing them back, the command structure is a mess. It's diabolical. You've got every man, Jack, who thinks they should be in charge. And nobody there to tell them, actually, you know what, it would be much, much better if we followed that guy. They all think they're the guy. And for the others in Venezuela, particularly the rural areas, this feels like a big city swinger revolt.
30:44Anita:These are the guys with the canes and the nice suits who are making all the noise. This is a city, it's nothing to do with us. So beyond the big cities like Caracas, there's limited support and appetite for this kind of chaos.
31:00William:And why would anyone support these guys? They're the slave drivers. There's no reason to have a popular revolt if the people leading the revolt are the slave owners.
31:08Anita:Unless you're promising something like freedom, unless you're actually making it explicit, which people like Bolivar can't do because then they lose all their lateral support. You can't make that promise, you'll lose all of the people who do have guns and men.
31:21William:And these guys have kind of local militias, but while the Spanish forces have got a proper up and running full scale military, and they're completely outgunned. So what does Miranda do?
31:31Anita:So poor Miranda, right? Miranda is a brave man. There is no doubt about this. He's sort of riding from militia to militia saying, come on, let's fight. And he's right at the front of this battle against the Spanish troops. And he's the Republic's military commander. Absolutely right. I mean, as much as you can command a ragtag army that's not listening particularly. But when it just looks as though it's all going just dreadful, and he is, remember, that Draco Malfoy face, look him up. He is the face of independence. He's been watching his side being hammered, losing in blood and coin and just showing no sign of being united or organised in any way.
32:12Anita:So, he signs a capitulation with the Royalist commander, Captain Monteverdi, in July of 1812. And this is so shocking, weirdly shocking. I mean, because they're there, they can see what's happening. But Bolivar takes this as a personal betrayal.
32:29William:Does Bolivar want to kind of lead a guerrilla action up in the hills, retreat into the mountains, all that sort of thing?
32:35Anita:He just says, we fight until the last man. He is the guy who made that, you know, while there's blood in my veins, we shall fight, fight, fight for independence as a 22-year-old. And he's still that guy.
32:47William:So by 1812, Bolivar has risen up to be the other rival military commander. And after Miranda signs this capitulation, Bolivar reacts by having his friend arrested. And he hands him over to the forces of the Spanish crown, which is effectively a death sentence. So this is a very dodgy personal moment. Yeah.
33:11Anita:And actually, towards the end of his life, Willie, he will express regret for what he did. It will be one of those decisions that will bother him into the rest of his life. And what happens to Miranda, what should I tell you? I mean, it's awful. It's a kind of a pitiful, pitiful end. He's taken into custody. He's moved to a prison in Cadiz and he dies just a few years later, a broken, emaciated figure. So, for a man who was celebrated as this, you know, the great…
33:39William:Dashing revolutionary. Yeah.
33:41Anita:Yeah. I mean, he died considered a traitor to the cause by many and he died broken and far away from home. Sad. We should talk about Bolivar because it's not safe for Bolivar to hang about, now the Spanish have won. So, he has to get out and he's lucky enough to escape arrest. He hands Miranda over and he makes his getaway and he flees to Colombia. It's in Colombia in 1813 that he makes this decision that will define his military career and also stay in his legacy forever. So, we talk about how complicated this man is because what he does is he says, this is going to be a war to the death. It's an infamous decree from Bolivar.
34:27Anita:Any Spaniard who did not actively support the revolution would be executed, full stop. Any American who supported Spain will be executed. This is total war. There is no quarter. There is no mercy.
34:42William:This sounds very 20th century, doesn't it? This sounds like the internal fighting of the Maoists or the Russian revolutionaries.
34:49Anita:And it's not what Miranda believed. Miranda said, you have to let people give up. You have to let them raise a white flag. You have to be magnanimous in victory if you're going to have victory. Any counter-revolutionary conspirators, Bolivar said, kill them immediately when they were fighting. He said, no, I don't think so. I don't think that's what we're going to be about. Miranda says, automatically, if you're born in Spain, we shouldn't kill you. Whereas Bolivar says, no, there's no place for them in Venezuela. If they were born in Spain, they can get out. So, you see this actually quite extreme positioning of Bolivar.
35:32Anita:If he needed more evidence, does he mean what he says? After one battle, before he's fled, he orders a cold-blooded execution of around 800 Spanish prisoners. Bolivar did do that. A staggering piece of violence. But Bolivar believed it is necessary if you want a nationalist movement, if you want to scare your enemies, if you want to force Americans to choose sides and make collaboration with Spain impossible, that is what you're going to have to do.
35:59William:Again, it sounds Stalinist or Maoist. This is again revolutionaries turning to really intense bloodshed and against all the kind of established rules of law and respecting prisoners, which is very much around in the 18th century. You don't massacre prisoners in the 18th century anymore than you do in the 21st century. So, brutality goes both ways, doesn't it? The Spanish are also very brutal at this point. Tell us about that, Nita.
36:24Anita:Nita Let's crystallize them in the figure of one person who actually haunts Bolivar's nightmares and his name is José Tomás Boves. If you sort of saw Miranda as a sort of luminous kind of character, Boves is not that, okay?
36:40William:He's a brute by the look of this portrait I've got in front of me at the moment. It's not great, is it?
36:45Anita:No, I mean, describe.
36:46William:He's a kind of bull in epaulettes and yeah.
36:49Anita:Yeah, and really sort of snarly brownie. He had been a Spanish sailor, been arrested for smuggling and he'd been sent to the dungeons of Puerto Cabello. And then he was exiled to Venezuela, where he fell in with this marauding bunch of cowboys. He's described as being strong-shouldered with an enormous head and piercing blue eyes and a pronounced sadistic streak.
37:11William:Not the man you want to pose at you at this point, no.
37:14Anita:No, really not. And he ends up leading the legions of hell. Now, these are hordes of wild plainsmen and mostly actual mixed race indigenous people.
37:26William:This is a complicated lineup here. So the indigenous are against Bolívar.
37:31Anita:They are because, you know, he's Creole, man. He's been driving us into the dirt for ages. So they hate him. So they join Bovis and they use the weaponry of the indigenous people. So they have these sort of long lances carved out of palm, hardened to, you know, sharp points. And you sort of heat them in the fire. So, the sap hardens and they're really very dangerous and they fight while they ride a gallop. They can hang from the side of their horses like the armies of Genghis Khan or Cossacks. They are deadly accurate. They are very frightening and they ride with Bovis. They don't fight for political ideology, but they want vengeance against this ruling class that has kept them down for such a long time.
38:15Anita:The Spanish, they come forward again as they do to the enslaved people, they say to these indigenous people riding behind Boves and the cowboys, if you like, they say, you will have freedom and we will give you land if you fight and if you kill them.
38:32William:This again has echoes with our American series where the black slaves fight with the British in the War of Independence. And these are not simple blacks and whites. There's a lot of gray areas. If all the indigenous are against Bolivar and Bolivar is a slave owner hanging out with the plantation owners, it's a very different story to the one we had, for example, in Haiti, where it's the slaves rising up against the French. This is a very different story.
39:02Anita:Bervis and his forces are absolutely brutal. And they really do show no mercy and no quarter. And you have cities that are sacked and atrocities become routine. And you have, by 1816, Bolivar, who keeps sort of dipping in and out, you know, trying to fight from wherever he can with whatever he's got, is defeated multiple times. And then he ends up on the run in 1816 from the Legions of Hell, and he ends up in Jamaica.
39:27William:I love the Legions of Hell.
39:29Anita:I'm glad you do. He didn't so much. But he ends up first in Jamaica, and then he goes to Haiti, which you've just been talking about.
39:37William:So he flees to his fellow slave owners in Jamaica. Jamaica is at this point the biggest slave center in 1811 in the world.
39:46Anita:It's not uninteresting, is it? Not uninteresting at all that he does that.
39:50William:I was expecting a much more sort of hero. We started off with him as this sort of Latin lover boy with his fancy wife and everything. But actually, you get this.
39:59Anita:I told you, it's complicated. But both things can be true. You can feel sorry for the young kid who's kind of all at a loss and sort of floating around and losing everybody he's ever cared about to this slightly brutal.
40:13William:Dodgy.
40:14Anita:It's very dodgy thoughts about warfare.
40:17William:Arresting his best friend, massacring prisoners. He's not an easy hero, this guy. Not easy.
40:25Anita:No, but on Empire, we don't serve them up simple and two-dimensional, do we? But if you want to see how, you know, these visits to Jamaica and Haiti will influence his political views and his legacy. And you can't wait. Just join our club for the price of a coffee a month. EmpirePodUK.com, EmpirePodUK.com. And you get these mini series all in one go. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnon.
40:49William:And goodbye from me, William Durhampool.
40:57William:It is out of control in the White House right now.
41:02Anita:Welcome to The Rest is Politics, U.S. I'm Katty Kaye.
41:05William:I'm Anthony Scaramucci. Who is the worst politician in Washington right now?
41:10Anita:They don't know how to manage Donald Trump.
41:12William:I talk to the people that organized the abduction. I'm telling you why they did it.
41:17Anita:The White House is in a bind, Anthony. Here's what I would say to you about FAFA. The chaos is the strategy. It should not have happened, and it is a violation of international law. Is he losing control of the party?
41:29William:I survived 11 days in Trump's White House. I know the SOB.
41:34Anita:I've been covering politics in Washington for almost 30 years. Twice a week, we break down what's really going on in Trump's White House.
41:42William:The big issue for the United States is going to be we were once seen as a benevolent superpower, and now we're seen as an aggressor.
41:50Anita:You know, he can lie about a lot of things, but he can't lie about what people are feeling about the economy.
41:57William:If you really want to understand what's going on in Trump's mind, just search The Rest is Politics U.S. wherever you get your podcasts.
From the publisher
Who were the cowboys and Indigenous people who made up the “Legions of Hell” and why did Bolívar fear them so deeply? How did Napoleon’s invasion of Spain speed up the collapse of its empire? What was Simón Bolívar’s secret revolutionary mission in London?
Get the entire Simón Bolívar miniseries early and ad-free by joining the Empire Club at empirepoduk.com
In Episode 2 of this series, Anita and William discuss the fragile nature of the Spanish Empire and the total war that broke out in South America in the fight for independence.
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