In short
Catherine Duleep Singh’s adult life in Castle in Prussia (Third Reich era) with her childhood governess/intimate companion Lena Schaefer, and Catherine’s role in helping Jewish refugees escape Nazi Germany, including acting as a guarantor for British visas.
Guest backgrounds
No podcast guests are interviewed in the transcript; only hosts Anita Arnand and William Durrumpel, plus referenced historians/figures (e.g., Peter Bunz) and relatives (Sophia’s goddaughter).
Key claims
Lesbian relationships weren’t criminalised in England then (unlike male homosexuality); Catherine stayed in Germany through WWI and the blockade; British entry for Jewish refugees depended on a British sponsor/guarantor; Catherine helped at least six Jewish families (possibly more) and later fled to England after Lena’s death.
Notable examples
Ilse Hornstein and her children (husband arrested at Sachsenhausen); Wilhelm Meierstein; Maria Luz Wolff; Alexander Polinarov; Catherine’s intercepted pro-German letter during WWI; her later support for MPs and arranging passage for other refugees.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Catherine's Story
0:50 to 1:39
Anita and William delve into the life of Catherine Dulip Singh and her unique circumstances in Nazi Germany.
“New markdowns up to 70 % off are at Nordstrom Rack stores now.”
Exploring Catherine's Story
1:59 to 3:06
Anita and William delve into the life of Catherine Dulip Singh and her unique circumstances in Nazi Germany.
“Modern organizations face the same sort of problem and ATIO helps solve it.”
Exploring Catherine's Story
3:22 to 4:50
Anita and William delve into the life of Catherine Dulip Singh and her unique circumstances in Nazi Germany.
“And now we have this exhibition in London bringing this story to a much wider audience.”
The Upbringing of the Sisters
4:50 to 6:43
Discussion about the childhood and education of Catherine and her sisters.
“So this is the story that we're going to tell.”
Influence of Their Governess
6:43 to 8:08
Anita and William talk about the impact of their governess Lena on the sisters' lives.
“And he is sort of the rubber stamping role in their lives.”
Catherine at Somerville College
8:08 to 10:00
The discussion covers Catherine's experiences and relationships at Somerville College.
“Clever observation because Queen Victoria believed that German governors were the best because they had the discipline.”
The Relationship with Lena
10:00 to 12:12
Exploration of the complex relationship between Catherine and her governess Lena.
“And she sort of stays in Somerville with Catherine and Bamber, who is already there.”
Queer History and Legal Context
12:12 to 14:00
Anita and William discuss the legal situation of women and queer relationships in the Victorian era.
“That this is something that is so close that even the sisters who are tremendously close would not try to get in the middle of it.”
Catherine's Journey and Education
14:00 to 18:01
Explore Catherine's educational struggles and her familial connections to Germany.
“which I can quote boringly from, is written about that experience.”
Life in Castle: A New Beginning
18:01 to 21:34
Learn about Catherine's life in Castle and her burgeoning connection with Lena.
“One of those handsome, slightly chocolate boxy, prosperous, slightly sleepy German university towns that were very popular in this interwar period.”
Show all 21 chapters
Navigating War and Loyalty
21:34 to 24:41
Discuss how Catherine navigates her British identity while living in Germany during WWI.
“She was living with a German lady and he also writes an intimate friend and her sister is not at all clear whether she wishes to leave Germany.”
Post-War Life and Domestic Bliss
24:41 to 26:19
Examine Catherine's life after the war and her happiness with Lena in Germany.
“And he's very keen on Indian independence and he's very anti-Zionist in contrast to his cousin, Herbert Samuels, who was the first British governor of Mandate Palestine.”
The Rise of Nazi Germany
26:19 to 28:00
Understand the looming threat of Nazi Germany and its impact on Catherine and Lena.
“So she stays and she's happy and she's living with Lena and they are having a marvellous time.”
A Moment of Happiness
28:00 to 28:30
Exploring the contrasting appearances and emotions of Lena and Katherine.
“Let's leave them just for a moment of happiness because they won't be able to be happy for very much longer.”
The Rise of Nazi Germany
28:30 to 28:40
Understand the looming threat of Nazi Germany and its impact on Catherine and Lena.
“Hi, this is Gary Lineker from Goalhangers.”
The Rise of Nazi Germany
28:42 to 29:39
Understand the looming threat of Nazi Germany and its impact on Catherine and Lena.
“It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print.”
Catherine's Secret Efforts
29:40 to 30:33
Discussing Catherine Schaefer's covert actions to help Jewish families escape.
“In an all-new season, now streaming only on Disney+.”
The Plight of Ilse Hornstein
30:41 to 36:34
An account of Ilse Hornstein's desperate situation and Catherine's intervention.
“in localized pair of eccentric spinsters, Germany now sliding into open Nazi violence.”
Catherine's Refuge for Jews
36:35 to 39:55
Details on Catherine's efforts to shelter Jewish families during WWII.
“It is proper sort of fiery torches in the street and her neighbours, Catherine's neighbours say to her, you've got to go.”
Catherine's Final Days
39:56 to 42:00
Catherine's deteriorating situation and her eventual death in the context of her life's work.
“Isle of Wight had an enormous amount of interred Germans.”
Reflecting on a Love Story and Introducing Princess Bamba
42:00 to 42:28
Learn about the conclusion of a love story and the introduction of a complex character, Princess Bamba.
“So it's, you know, that's the end of a rather beautiful love story, I think.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00William:If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast, add free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to Empire Club at www.empirepoduk.com. Fourth of July savings are happening now at the Home Depot with select appliances starting at$398. Plus, get free delivery on appliance purchases of$398 or more, no membership required. Upgrade your kitchen with a modern and sleek GE profile refrigerator featuring hands-free autofill for the perfect pour every time. And make Laundry Day easier with 2-in-1 washer-dryer combo innovation that completes laundry in about 90 minutes.
0:42William:Shop top brand appliances now at The Home Depot. Offer valid June 17th to July at the U.S. only C-Store online for details.
0:49Anita:So good, so good, so good. New markdowns up to 70 % off are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Stock up and stay big on shoes, tops, dresses, accessories, and more must-haves for summer. Join the Nordic Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC.
1:21William:And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC.
1:52William:This episode is brought to you by ATIO, the AICRM. The larger an empire becomes, the harder it is to know what's happening across it. Modern organizations face the same sort of problem and ATIO helps solve it. ATIO is an AICRM designed for how teams really operate. Sync your email and calendar and you're up and running in minutes. From there, Atio brings your conversations and contacts together in one place so your team can see what is happening in real time. Ask Atio goes a step further. Simply ask questions about your pipeline, which deals are moving fastest, where the momentum is building or what needs attention next, and get a clear answer in moments.
2:39William:With Atio, you can focus on the real work of building your empire from day one onwards. Try Attio for free at attio.com slash empire.
3:06Anita:Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnon.
3:09William:And me, William Drumpel. So we are now on part two of this extraordinary story of this world that Anita discovered and pioneered with her wonderful book on Sophia, published a decade ago. And now we have this exhibition in London bringing this story to a much wider audience. There are plaques on houses. There are first day covers. And it's very exciting to see how this whole field has developed since Anita wrote this great book. So last time we discussed the focus of Anita's book, Sophia Dulip Singh, this extraordinary story of a woman who was at the heart of the monarchy, but also at the heart of the suffragette movement, which many would have thought was a contradiction in terms.
3:51William:But today we have an equally extraordinary story, her sister Catherine. And she spends most of her adult life, hundreds of miles from England, in a German town called Castle in Prussia, with her intimate companion who happened to be her childhood governess.
4:11Anita:And honestly, it's one of the regrets of my life that although I wrote about Catherine, I knew that there was more and that she deserved her own book. Never quite got round to doing it. Not too late, Anita. I'd read it. Thanks, Willie. It really is, in this whole Dulip Singh family history, this is one of the most tender relationships that I came across. And it is a love between two women. Now, whether it's sexual or not, we don't know because there are no Polaroids from the time. But we do know that these are two women who follow each other around the world and who never let go of each other's hands.
4:47Anita:and not even world war gets in their way. So this is the story that we're going to tell. Catherine comes from the same stock, the same tragic background that we discussed about Sophia, but she goes in a completely different direction, which takes her into Hitler's Germany.
5:04William:Because in 1933, when Hitler comes to power, Germany begins its slide into Nazism, into racialized law, into war. And Catherine doesn't leave. She carries on in Prussia. She's in Castle right through this. A brown woman cohabiting with another woman, Indian princess, the sister of an army officer living in the Third Reich.
5:26Anita:I mean, let's go back to her story. She's older than Sophia. She's born in 1871 in Belgravia. She is, if you look at photographs of the three girls when they came out as debutantes, Sophia and her sisters were presented together before Queen Victoria. You will see Bamba, who's in the foreground, dark skinned, fierce eyed, not smiling at all. Doesn't look very particularly happy to be there. Sophia, the youngest, the most anglicised. And you have Catherine in the middle, sort of standing above. And she is, I think, the most beautiful. She's got sort of the swan neck. She has this stillness about her face, sort of an enigmatic kind of smile about her.
6:09Anita:I do think they look a little like meringues, the three of them. But yes, I see what you mean. That was the style of the time.
6:14William:The meringues were very much on show.
6:16Anita:But you just imagine sort of that brown skin against that white meringage. It's quite something. Anyway, these children all develop very distinct personalities from a very young age. And you have sort of reports about them. They are constantly being spied on and reports are constantly being sent back. And we have them.
6:33William:Are there sort of spies or governors or?
6:36Anita:They have guardians. Lord Henniker is one of the guardians who looks after the children after both parents have died. And he is sort of the rubber stamping role in their lives. Whatever money is needed, he rubber stamps this. And he gets constant reports as well. And he talks about how once they've been removed from their malign family's influence, these are his words, they are very much improved in every way and are nice, presentable young ladies. Catherine is a very pretty child. The eldest Bamba is nice looking. I have great hopes that the management of them, poor neglected children, will turn out well.
7:13Anita:Catherine and Sophia were always considered the prettier of the three, and that's because they were light skinned.
7:19William:Even in modern India, that's still very much the prejudice. Anyway, yes, after Catherine and Sophia's mother dies in 1887, and her father effectively abandons the family and disappears off to dissolute life, ending up in a Paris hotel in a very tragic way. A small army of tutors are brought in to educate and probably, in the words of the time, probably to civilize the children. A drill sergeant from the local army camp who marches up and down to teach them deportment, rather like the von Trapps. A tutor who teaches them how to curtsy. and then and this is the crucial addition to the family a governess from castle in hess germany lena is it schaefer schaefer or schaefer schaefer no the umblout says schaefer yeah and lena is a
8:08Anita:you know a kindly woman she's described as being very kind very gentle she becomes a favorite with the children and they are children you know when she comes into their lives is it because
8:20William:Yes, Queen Victoria is also German and there's all these German relations.
8:24Anita:Clever observation because Queen Victoria believed that German governors were the best because they had the discipline. And these girls, my goodness, needed some discipline in her view. There were reports that before she appointed guardians and Lena was taken on board, that these girls were running feral in the streets. And so somebody had to come in and take them in control. And this is even at a time when their mother, who I mentioned in the last episode, was an alcoholic, had no care of them at all because she was not even able to care for herself.
8:56William:This is very von Trapp, as you say. This is very much some of the sound of music territory, with governesses turning up to teach them to learn German poetry and possibly sing. Yeah.
9:06Anita:Well, I mean, you know, the hills are alive with the sound of Lena. She's 12 years older than Catherine. She's fluent in English. She's meant to teach the girls German. She's meant to keep an eye on them. But almost from the beginning, Catherine, who is about 16 when Lena arrives, is completely drawn to her, a limpet. She really relies on her. Now, you can understand why somebody wants a maternal figure when one is absent and you've gone through so much trauma. So I think definitely at that time, she's just a stable, kind, maternal woman in her life. So she's 17 when she goes up to Somerville College, which is a college in Oxford, the only one to take in women.
9:45William:Where Indira Gandhi later went.
9:47Anita:Exactly. And to read French and German. Now, look, this is what is unusual. When she is at Oxford, does this girl need a governess anymore? There are other children in the family who are younger who could probably have done with a governess. But Lina goes too. And she sort of stays in Somerville with Catherine and Bamber, who is already there. Tell us a little more about Somerville College, because apart from Indira Gandhi, You know, there's some interesting history here.
10:14William:Somerville, at this point, is pretty new. It's founded in 1879. Women aren't allowed to graduate yet from Oxford. They can study and they can sit exams, be told what mark they would have got if they were men, but not formally given degrees, which seems incredibly dog in the major attitude from Oxford. And Catherine and Bamba both go.
10:35Anita:They do.
10:36William:Why does Sophia not go?
10:38Anita:Well, Sophia's too young, first of all, because remember, she's younger. But also, there are letters which say it would be better to separate the older sisters from the younger, because while they're in the care of their guardians, this family called the Oliphons, there are lots of reports being sent by Arthur Oliphant, who is looking after them, that say, these two older ones speak very disloyally about the queen and about the country. Sophia, she's delightful. She's really quiet. She hardly speaks. She barely looks you in the eye. She's great. We love Sophia.
11:10William:She's into Pomeranian dogs, always a thing that appeals to British.
11:13Anita:She wouldn't say boo to a goose. She's kind of pliable. But those two, not. And so that is why Queen Victoria didn't really care for university education for women, but signs off on the fact that, yeah, send them away, send them far, far away. So Lina just stays. She never leaves. Now, it's important to be careful. and you know we don't want to stamp modern categories but my reading of their situation having sort of spent over a decade with these girls is that what kindles at Somerville and which will go on for the next 40 years is a relationship a loving relationship don't know if it's sexual or not goodness knows if you're not in the room you don't know but they love each other Sophia's word for them is intimate and we know you know she's a great prude about sex huge brood.
12:00Anita:So any hint of impropriety would make her uncomfortable. But Bamba and Sophia never, ever question the fact that Catherine and Lena come in a package. That this is something that is so close that even the sisters who are tremendously close would not try to get in the middle of it. And Lena, who is all about Catherine, nothing really very much to do with Bamba or Sophia's life. It is Catherine, Catherine, Catherine, and Catherine, and that is reciprocated between them.
12:32William:It's really interesting territory, this. The world I grew up, I grew up in a rather Edwardian Scottish seaside town, and there were lots of old spinsters cohabiting without raising any eyebrows at all, and who knows what their relationship was. Do we have letters or anything that are, you know, unquestionably romantic between the two.
12:55Anita:We don't have letters between them, unfortunately. And that is because of, I think, largely the war, whatever ephemera was between them, was lost at that time. I haven't seen them. If they do surface and, you know, stuff keeps surfacing about these sisters, it would be amazing.
13:11William:And if Sophia, who was prudish, doesn't see any hint of impropriety, is that evidence on the other side or not?
13:19Anita:I would say on the contrary, she wouldn't talk about it if they were.
13:22William:And what's the legal situation at this point? Because obviously you've got lots of very draconian laws against male gay relationships. Oscar Wilde, and indeed my great-grandfather, had to leave the country for very similar reasons, ended up living in Italy at exactly this time. But presumably, I'd imagine there was not similar laws for women because they would not have even entered the minds of people of this generation.
13:45Anita:You're right. Great. So lesbian relationships are not criminalised in England at this point. Male homosexuality totally is. So Oscar Wilde, you mentioned in 1895, he receives a sentence of two years hard labour. The Ballad of Reading Jail, a beautiful piece of poetry by Oscar Wilde, which I can quote boringly from, is written about that experience. But for women, there's no equivalence in law. You know, the Victorian legal mind simply couldn't get itself around the fact that women would do such a thing.
Read the full transcript
14:11William:I love that. It's brilliant.
14:14Anita:It's important to also say that this is an aspect of queer history for women, full stop. You know, that sometimes you have to read between the lines because it was so dangerous or so completely invisible to people around. And, you know, unless you have the Polaroids or, as you say, sort of the love letters, you have to surmise. And there is, I think, just an overwhelming mountain of evidence that these two loved each other. They were inseparable. Have you seen the picture I sent you? She hated her time at Somerville. She couldn't wait to leave. She's a serious, quiet student. You know, she's doing fine.
14:51William:And she's studying German and French.
14:53Anita:And Arthur Oliphant says, I feel sure the Queen will like to hear of Princess Catherine Duleepsing having taken honours third class at the close of her Oxford career. Princess Bamber, the elder of the two, has not been successful. I am sorry to say. Because Bamber, you know, doesn't want to be there either. But she's not even going to try. So she's just been sent into Somerville exile and is just sort of simmering away with her hockey stick. Whereas Catherine, you know, actually does some work. As you said, neither gets a degree because Oxford won't award one to a woman until 1920. Catherine and Vanbury are a whole generation before that change takes place.
15:27Anita:But Catherine does leave with an education that very few women of her generation have.
15:32William:And then they go off on holiday. They go off on the Grand Tour with Lena.
15:35Anita:Yeah, the Grand Tour is a thing that we learn about in school here in Britain. I think it's a European thing, isn't it, where posh, stroke royal, stroke aristocratic people go off to discover Europe. And they spend months at a time traveling around Europe and the Mediterranean. And that's precisely what Catherine and Lena do.
15:56William:The idea is it's a wider education rather than just learning about painting and history. There is this idea that you go and discover the world and you go to the sedia parts of Italy and you discover all that life has to offer in inverted commas. and that is very much part of the package.
16:11Anita:And Lena is delighted to be the one taking Catherine and Sophia joins for part of the tour. You know, they go to Holland, they go to Germany, they go to Italy, Greece, Egypt. And, you know, we've got some surviving fragments from the housekeeper, Margaret Mays, who's just really kind of unimpressed by the whole thing. She doesn't want to go home. It's, you know, Germany. Flat and boring.
16:32William:Flat and boring, you know.
16:35Anita:Like all of Lena's, you know, sort of passion and pleasure about showing the very best of her country. It's like Margaret May is like, yeah, can we go home now? Italy is wonderful and sort of opens their eyes and transforms Sophia in many ways, even more than Catherine. And then Egypt, where, you know, they stand in front of the Sphinx and they think of their mother.
16:55William:Yes, they have a family connection, don't they? Absolutely.
16:58Anita:Bamba, born in Alexandria. So both India and Egypt meant a lot to these girls because of the family connection with a mother that they really barely knew because life was so very hard when she was alive. Anyway, this trip, honestly, Willie, is the beginning of Catherine's life because she's seen Germany now through Lena's eyes. And very quietly, you know, the secretive one has resolved from that point that that is where she wants to live. She's going to live in Germany. Now, this is like just sort of from left field. There are no family connections in Germany. There is nothing tying this family to Germany.
17:36Anita:The world is big. Italy is a lovely place. They loved Italy, but she chooses Germany and she chooses to go and set up home with Lena. She's a young woman. She's a lot younger than her governess.
17:47William:What are their ages now? So 20 and 32. Is that right?
17:50Anita:Something like that. So Castle. Tell us about Castle because that will become the centre of Catherine's world.
17:56William:Well, it's in Prussia and it sits in a valley surrounded by hills, lovely beach forests. One of those handsome, slightly chocolate boxy, prosperous, slightly sleepy German university towns that were very popular in this interwar period. And lots of British travellers go there and are enchanted by it in a way that, you know, it isn't really part of a tourist itineraries anymore. It's also, interestingly, the place where Brothers Grimm, I think, collected a lot of their fairy tales and their folk tales.
18:25Anita:So it's beautiful. And they're living, you know, this chocolate box existence, which nobody can yank Catherine back from. There are letters that we do have between Sophia in particular saying, are you coming back? Can you come back? Are you going to come back? And she never does. She just stays there. And in fact, what she says is, why don't you leave that horrid place, Faraday House, that awful place? she hates it because both she and Bamba think that it is enemy territory because do you remember in the Sophia episode I said that Grace and Vava apartments were handed out to heroes of the Raj you know those who had taken a stand yeah just imagine it for Bamba and Catherine they're wandering around with their brown skin knowing that the people here who are rewarded
19:11William:surrounded by what they might regard as war criminals war criminals right exactly i mean
19:17Anita:sophia doesn't see this or doesn't want to see this and stays because you know she has this need i mean i guess you know she she needs she doesn't have a lena it's not a bad spot to live i'd love you to live in let's have the court yeah gorgeous but lena you know is the one that is the center of katherine's world whereas for sophia it is what she has known which is faraday house Queen Victoria and London life.
19:44William:Do we have a picture of their life together? What are Lena and her getting up to all day?
19:47Anita:So yes we have lovely letters from Catherine trying to tempt Sophia out because she's really worried that Sophia sometimes had an eating disorder from time to time saying you know you just really have to come. Come and let Lena cook for you. Lena restores everything. Just come and we'll look after you. The air is so delightful here she says. Yeah, excellent. Miss S's German food is too good for any words. But you know, she's sort of watching from afar when Sophia starts kicking up all hell as a suffragette. She's sort of like slightly bemused, but she is supportive because she starts sending money.
20:24Anita:She starts financially supporting the less militant suffragettes. And she starts sort of sending money to Millicent Fawcett saying actually, yes, absolutely, women's rights matter to her as well. Now, one may wonder if that's something to do with the fact that she has this intimate relationship, as Sophia called it, with a woman that is not even noticed and could be criminalised at some point in time. So that is where they stay. And then, Willie.
20:50William:First World War breaks out. She's on the wrong side of the line as far as Britain's concerned. So how do they negotiate that?
20:56Anita:Well, how do they negotiate it? I mean, poorly, one might say, because she's a British citizen. She's refusing to leave Lena and refusing to leave Germany. Lena wouldn't be able to leave Germany even if she wanted to because, you know, she's an enemy alien. So Catherine decides, even though she has every right to come back to England, that she's not going to do it. And there are lots of reports that suggest that Sophia is beside herself and wants to get her out. So James Dunlop Smith is a big wig at the India office in London and Sophia is bombarding him with letters saying, can we just get her out?
21:27Anita:But, you know, Catherine doesn't want to go. Princess Sophia says, you know, Dunlop Smith is just called to ask if anything can be done for her sister, Princess Catherine. when last heard she was in Wilhelmschon Castle, Prussia. She was living with a German lady and he also writes an intimate friend and her sister is not at all clear whether she wishes to leave Germany. Well, she didn't want to leave Germany and that is where she stays. And Catherine writes to Sophia because it's really hard to get letters across. And bear in mind that Victor has signed up to join and fight in the war. I mean, he's actually sort of too fat and grand to do anything useful, but he's part of the yeomanry.
22:04Anita:But Catherine's letter to Sophia is intercepted as a secret letter. Dear Sophie, it's awful having no news of you. I'm perfectly all right here. You must not be anxious in any way. It's just the same as in times of peace. Perfect order everywhere. No sort of restrictions for me. There have been no murders or disturbances by Germans in Germany and the destruction of property in their enemy countries has simply been just punishment of civilians who've taken part in war. I implore, and then she does a little star symbol because she's trying to be cryptic, to have nothing to do with this unjust war against Germany from your loving sister Catherine.
22:38Anita:Now that star symbol represents Victor. So, you know, just tell them not to fight. She's basically suborning treason is what she's doing because of this love that she has not only for Lena, but her country.
22:50William:And this, as we'll see later, this letter is noted, isn't it?
22:53Anita:Absolutely noted and held very much against Catherine.
22:55William:This is a period of censorship and all letters coming in and out of Germany are going to be opened by the authorities. And And we know that they read this and put it in a file.
23:04Anita:They did. And they also put their assessment in that same file on Catherine, saying that she was decidedly pro-German in her sentiments, but not a serious threat. So just leave her to rot in Germany. That's it. And they sort of kept a closer eye on the sister in Hampton Court, who is right under their nose. So she stays there. She stays throughout the naval blockade of German ports.
23:25William:Interesting that she doesn't get interned or anything like that, that the Germans just happy to let her carry on in her village with her friend.
23:31Anita:Women are invisible and she wasn't deemed a threat in Germany. She's very pro-German. Why would they round her up? She's very much on side. And she stays during the blockade. She stays while German civilians are starving. You know, the turnip winter, the Germans refer to it as this period of great hardship where hundreds of thousands have died of malnutrition and disease.
23:51William:Der Grubenwinter, the turnip winter.
23:54Anita:But finally, because she starts getting very sick, Sophia manages to win the day and gets her out.
24:01William:There is a finite number of tenets that we can all eat in a year.
24:04Anita:Well, yeah. I mean, it's a really sad story. Catherine's starving by 1918. Lena is seriously ill. So Sophia just moves heaven and earth to get her out. And as she gets her out through a really circuitous way on Armistice Day itself, the Dutch embassy in Berlin gets this urgent request to create a passport for the Dilip Singh princess and Catherine gets out. They're so surveilled, they're just girls, right? But the letters are from the most senior members of government. So Edwin Montague, the Secretary of State of India.
24:35William:Edwin Montague is one of the more liberal figures in a cabinet not known for its advanced racial views, I think it's fair to say. And he's very keen on Indian independence and he's very anti-Zionist in contrast to his cousin, Herbert Samuels, who was the first British governor of Mandate Palestine.
24:50Anita:And he gets a lot of flack just for being Jewish. They dub him Edwin Montague on the opposition benches. It's an awful amount of barracking. But when he hears that Sophia is trying to get her sister back, he writes, I hardly think we're in a position to make difficulties. Quite early in the war, we intercepted a foolish pro-German letter from Princess Catherine. But so far as I know, nothing has been heard of her since. It may be hoped she has found occasion to modify her views. in any case there seems to be no sufficient evidence for treating her as an enemy so you know that's the level of consideration that is going on and so she's allowed back Sophia nurses her back to health but the moment the borders open what does she do she runs straight back to Lena
25:35William:absolutely is Lena still there Lena's they're separated at this point Lena can't get out she's
25:40Anita:a German. How can she get out? So she's just there. So Catherine goes straight back to her. And throughout the 1920s, throughout the Weimar years, that is where she stays. They describe themselves, Catherine writes to Sophia saying, we are just happy little church mice. We're wandering around and having the most wonderful time.
26:01William:This is the world of Babylon Berlin, which is one of my favourite ever TV shows. You watched it, the Weimar years in Germany, all the amazing things going on, including all sorts of relationships between same sexes and so on. Something we just don't associate with 20s and 30s Germany.
26:17Anita:Cabaret and things like that. It's that sort of period that we're talking about. So she stays and she's happy and she's living with Lena and they are having a marvellous time. And they are, you know, they're just domestic bliss in this beautiful place. And then we know what happens in the 1930s.
26:34William:Hitler becomes chancellor in 1933 and within 12 months, effectively a dictator and everything goes to hell in a handcart. He takes the title Fuhrer in 1934. Nuremberg laws strip German Jews of their citizenship in 1935. Brown shirt violence in the streets. But none of this is yet in Kassel, which is still sort of half timber cottages and cuckoo clock houses sitting there with beer hoffs and all the rest of it in Prussia.
26:59Anita:Yeah, but it's getting closer. So, you know, by the year 1938, you know, things are really heating up. You just had the Anschluss in March, you know, that time when the German troops crossed into Austria.
27:10William:My mother and grandmother were in Austria at the time of the Anschluss. And my grandmother did several journeys back and forth smuggling Jewish Austrians out of the country in the boot of her Rolls Royce.
27:23Anita:Hold that thought. It may be pertinent in a little while. So the Nazis are pushing and pushing into the Sudetenland throughout the summer. He's busy stoking those grievances of ethnic Germans and Czechoslovakia. He's pushing Europe to the brink of war. He gets to Munich by September. And it is getting closer and closer. And you've got this sort of 66-year-old Indian princess and her German partner, Aryan German in her 70s, beloved of the local community. but lena is katherine's shield you know as long as she's around oh there's a wonderful picture
27:58William:i've just seen the picture you sent yeah absolutely wonderful isn't it gorgeous there's quite an age difference between them lena's looking now quite grandmotherly with a sort of furs over her thick winter coat and katherine's looking thoroughly punjabi with a little sort of teapot hat on her head a teapot hat and those little sort of punjabi cheeks that
28:16Anita:we all get eventually. Yeah, the little pouch cheeks. But you know, look how happy they look. Look how comfortable they look. They do, don't they? Let's leave them just for a moment of happiness because they won't be able to be happy for very much longer. Join us after the break.
28:36William:Hi, this is Gary Lineker from Goalhangers. The rest is football. This episode is brought to you buy wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies.
29:12William:Most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid-market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee, and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, T's and C's apply.
29:39William:Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. So what's next? I've been liberated. We're going to take this city back. Over-Medicated. In an all-new season, now streaming only on Disney+.
29:52Anita:They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with them. That nobody gives you. This should be tons of fun.
30:00William:Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again, now streaming only on Disney+. Get business done with the new American Express Graphite Business Cash Unlimited card. With unlimited 2 % cash back on all eligible purchases, unlimited 5 % cash back on flights and prepaid hotels booked through American Express Travel Online, and a flexible spending capacity that can grow with your business, you'll have the confidence to keep building. Apply today and earn a welcome offer of$1 ,500 cash back after you spend$50 ,000 in qualifying purchases on your new card within the first six months of card membership. Terms apply.
30:33William:Learn more at go.amex.com.
30:37William:Welcome back to Empire. Now, we left this happy couple, Catherine and Lena Schaefer, in 1938, in localized pair of eccentric spinsters, Germany now sliding into open Nazi violence. This is where there is some new research, an element of this story we knew nothing about until recently. the fact that Catherine is quietly helping Jewish families escape.
31:05Anita:When I was talking to Sophia's goddaughter, she told me that she had a distinct memory, she was a little girl, of, she called them the dirty people arriving at Hampton Court. And she described people who had come off the coal barges, had been smuggled into the night into Faraday House, and that where they were washed, cleaned, fed, and then sent on their way. And I said, well, who were they? That's a really weird memory. And she said, well, I think they were Jews that were being helped out of Germany by Catherine and then sent to Sophia. And I thought, well, this is amazing.
31:36William:His sister's running their own sort of Schindler escape network.
31:39Anita:Underground Railroad. Exactly right. Thank goodness a historian called Peter Bunz, who is a fabulous Dilip Singh archivist, has gone through much research. And he has been following, you know, sort of chasing down the story of what he calls the Indian Schindler. so you know we should say Schindler saved 1200 lives Peter gave an interview to Deutsche Welle not so long ago saying you know saving one life or saving 10 lives is still saving you're saving somebody who's not your color not your religion not your ethnic background but you're doing it based on humanity what was she doing so she was acting as a guarantor British refugee policy in the 1930s is misunderstood you know it wasn't an open door policy it wasn't even remotely generous
32:22William:A lot of the same people who are encouraging emigration to Palestine are absolutely raising the barriers to stop Jewish families' escape into Britain with great heartlessness.
32:34Anita:So, I mean, at that time, the government would only admit Jewish refugees from Germany if there was a British citizen and preferably a British citizen of note who would sign a paper saying this person would not become a burden on the state. I will house them. I will feed them. I will pay for them. And without a signature, the visa is refused. So, you know, this is entirely, entirely dependent on private generosity. No sponsor, no entry. and Catherine with her British passport and her royal title buys an empty manor house in Buckinghamshire remotely although she really doesn't want to ever go back to Buckinghamshire doesn't want to leave Germany there's no no way she wants to leave she will provide for all and it is Peter who's really found the first family that she saves and their story is really lovely it's extraordinary it begins in a doctor's waiting room in Castle in 1938 Catherine's just sitting there, another woman sitting, they're chatting.
33:31Anita:And the woman is Ilse Hornstein. Her husband's a Jewish lawyer. He's a decorated First World War veteran. He's just been arrested by the Gestapo and he's been sent to a really awful SS camp called Sachsenhausen. And their plight looks desperate. By the late 30s, tens of thousands of political prisoners, Jewish men are rounded up and they're being kept in the most horrific conditions.
33:57William:And Ilse has two young children, doesn't she? Klaus, George and Ursula. And she doesn't know if her husband's alive. He's last seen heading into this camp with the SS. It's not looking good. And she has no idea how to get out. And in a doctor's waiting room in Castle, she finds herself sitting next to an Indian princess, as one does. And Catherine just offers immediately, according to the family, she will be the guarantor to get them into the UK. She will sponsor their British visas. They can stay at her house in Buckinghamshire, a perfect stranger to a Jewish family she's known for 10 minutes.
34:29William:That speaks very, very well of her. Presumably also this could go wrong with the Nazi authorities who she's living among.
34:35Anita:Well, I mean, really, I mean, it's something of a red flag for the Nazis. Wilhelm gets out of Sachsenhausen, partly because the camp is overcrowded and they're releasing prisoners on condition, that they get out of Germany immediately. So he leaves with absolutely nothing. Ilse and the children leave. They are carried on Catherine's largesse. Sophia collects them, I guess. They might be the coal people that her goddaughter remembers. And then they are put up in this place in Buckinghamshire where they are allowed to live. And they're not the only ones because Catherine acts as a guarantor for at least six other people that we know about.
35:12Anita:There's Wilhelm Meierstein, a physician, his partner, Maria Luz Wolff, the violinist, Alexander Polinarov. Now, I know about him because Drovna remembered him playing in the drawing room of Hampton Court, Polinarov.
35:28William:Who is this remembering?
35:29Anita:So this is a woman I interviewed for the book who was a living link with Sophia, which just tells you how recent all this stuff, women fighting for the vote actually is. So she remembers growing up in Faraday House. And as a young girl in the evening, this wonderful violinist called Polnariov is playing for the family. And there's another family. There's the Reich family. There's the Gurtmans. and Peter Bunce like I said is leading the investigation on this and he's done really well but he thinks there's a much longer list than this and actually there's a lovely thing that Peter talks about that in 2002 after reading a local newspaper article somebody turned up in his office and said my mother and my uncles and my grandparents were saved by Princess Catherine in Germany if it wasn't for her I wouldn't be alive today a spine tingling moment this carries on, Catherine playing saviour at this time, but then something happens to her and she herself needs to be saved, okay?
36:29Anita:Because Lena dies. So, it's just weeks before Kristallnacht, August 1938.
36:35William:So, things are getting really hairy, race riots in the streets.
36:38Anita:It is proper sort of fiery torches in the street and her neighbours, Catherine's neighbours say to her, you've got to go. You've got to get out of here. There's no one here to defend you. Now, Lena's not here to defend you. We can't protect you. You are brown. Get out, get out, get out. She's 67 years old. She's left alone for the first time in 50 years. And you'd think that her reaction would be, I need to go. There's nothing here for me. Lena's buried in Castle, so she doesn't want to go. And we do have the account from a neighbor of hers, a doctor called Fritz Rattig. He's constantly worried about her.
37:16Anita:He keeps begging her to leave, but she doesn't want to leave Lina. Lina's in the ground. She doesn't want to leave Lina. Good sense prevails. And, you know, this foreign born woman in an unconventional relationship, friends with Jewish families who's been smuggling Jews out of the country, gets out. And she arrives in England via Switzerland in November 1938 and goes to Faraday House, the place she hates most in the world in Hampton Court. She can't stand it. She moans and groans about Sophia's constant smoking and her numerous dogs. The whole place stinks.
37:50William:Do they have an edgy relationship?
37:52Anita:They have a lovely relationship. These sisters love each other.
37:56William:Because those letters are very loving, but she doesn't like the dogs, doesn't like the cigarettes.
37:59Anita:She loves her sisters. She absolutely adores Sophia, but she cannot stand the pups and cigs. You know, it's the pups and zigs that are just driving her up the wall. So she then goes to this house in Penn in Buckinghamshire, Coal Hatch House.
38:14William:Which she's never been to before. She's bought blind.
38:17Anita:Was this sort of way station for the Jewish families that she was rescuing. And then she sets about decorating it in a modern European style, very much reminiscent of castle, you know, ornamental garden, orchard. It's all of the things that she and Lena had together. And, you know, for a while, she's happy. She even tempts, during the Blitz, Sophia refuses to leave London, even though there are bombs falling around Hampton Court. She's sort of smoking furiously out the window, going, I'm not going anywhere. And Catherine just says, would you please, I cannot lose somebody else. So she does very miserably go to Buckinghamshire in a little house that Catherine arranges, which is across the road from Coalhatch.
38:59Anita:So they don't have to have the stumbling block of the dogs and the cigarettes.
39:03William:And the dogs come too? Or the Pomeranians?
39:05Anita:Of course the dogs come too and Sophia also takes in sort of evacuees and, you know, she's doing her own bit of, you know, saving the world. You've got happiness for a while, beautiful happiness. Catherine feels useful, you know, as well as sort of making this house beautiful, she is constantly sending letters, writing to MPs, trying to arrange passage for other German Jews who need to get out.
39:28William:And also, I think she is busy sorting out the business of Germans who've been interned in Britain.
39:36Anita:Really good point, because that's another bit of history that people don't really think about. If you were German, even if you were a recently arrived German Jew.
39:44William:An anti-Nazi. And had been imprisoned for such, you would be rounded up and you would be put in an internment camp.
39:52Anita:In fact, I did a documentary about an unknown. It's sort of, you know, the equivalent of a Guantanamo Bay. Isle of Wight had an enormous amount of interred Germans. So what you had there, you had German Nazi sympathizers corralled with Jews who'd escaped Nazi Germany. It was so mad. But there was no other way. They didn't know who was a spy and who wasn't a spy. And some of these people were taken to Australia and dumped in the middle of the Australian outback. It's a fabulous story. And I will ask our wonderful producer to put the link to the documentary if it's still around because it opened my eyes.
40:25Anita:I'm really proud of it. Catherine does this. Sophia is living her life and Catherine then dies on the 8th of November 1942. She's never got over the death of Lena and she's exhausted by all her efforts of fighting the state, either the German state or the British state and it just takes its toll. And it's Sophia who finds her. I found her lying on the floor on her back. It evidently happened when she was getting up. The doctor said it was quite painless and instantaneous and nothing could have been done a lot of blood on the heart you can imagine an awful shock to me it completely stunned and stupefied me says so far i couldn't shake myself into ordinary things and she's cremated and one wonderful aspect of this is all she wanted was to go back to lena just take my remains back to lena bamber who's like sort of the the rottweiler who we're going to meet in the next episode.
41:18Anita:It's like, custodian, they're all mine, my sisters are mine. She even she understood there was this decency of returning Catherine to the woman that she loved, to Lena Schaefer.
41:29William:It's a very nice, touching note. I desire that a quarter of my ashes be as buried as near as possible to the coffin of my friend, Fräulein Lena Schaefer.
41:39Anita:Eventually, it does happen when they're able to travel. The rest, so Bamber's normally the custodian of grief at this time when her sisters die. And she's the one who arranges everything, even though she may not have proved she did it. And there is a beautiful moment. It's just lovely. And in Castle, the only memory that we have is that she's near Lena. That's it. So it's, you know, that's the end of a rather beautiful love story, I think. And next time, we're going to meet a much more difficult sister. We're going to meet Princess Bamba. Oh, Imperious, Impossible, Magnificent Bamba, who looked at England as just the enemy territory, hated it all the way through, like her father, will go back to Lahore and will try and take it back.
42:27Anita:It's another doozy of a story. If you want to listen and you don't want to wait, you can get early access to all episodes of this mini-series. Just join our club. Go to the link provided. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnand.
42:42William:And goodbye from me, William Durrumpel.
From the publisher
**Unlock the entire First British Indians series ad-free by joining the Empire Club at empirepoduk.com**
During the rise of Hitler, how did a brown-skinned Indian princess survive living in Germany? Who was Catherine Duleep Singh, the ‘Indian Schindler’ who rescued Jewish families from the Gestapo? Why was she accused of treason by the British government? And how is her story part of Lesbian History?
In Episode 2 of this series, William and Anita discuss the hidden history of Princess Duleep Singh, one of the extraordinary daughters of the last Maharaja of the Punjab.
If you're interested in the internment documentary that Anita mentions in the show, you can listen here.
Join the Empire Club: Unlock the full Empire experience – with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to miniseries and live show tickets, exclusive book discounts, a members-only newsletter, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at empirepoduk.com.
For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com.
Email: empire@goalhanger.com
Instagram: @empirepoduk
Blue Sky: @empirepoduk
X: @empirepoduk
Assistant Producer: Imogen Marriott
Editor: James Clayden
Social Producer: Charlie Johnson
Producer: Anouska Lewis
Executive Producer: Dom Johnson
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices