28 Years Later: The Bone Temple (ft. Nia DaCosta)

23:06Nia DaCosta:He believes, period, in people's capacity for change, I think. And what's interesting about Samson is he's not fully cured. He's just kind of figured out a part of this thing. But there are a lot of people who have audible hallucinations who don't torture anyone. So I think it's also, Jimmy has a lot more stuff going on than just a potential schizophrenia diagnosis. But yeah, there is a parallel between them that I find really interesting. But again, it's like this thing of choice versus not having a choice. I love that Kelson as a character is always trying to get to the humanity of people because he's trying to get to the humanity still there inside Samson.

23:50I love the scene with Kelson and Jimmy Crystal, that first meeting that they have. Because I was also like, this must be the first normal conversation that Jimmy Crystal has had with anybody in 30 years. To have somebody who treats him as a normal person and who sees the humanity in him, obviously Kelton at that point doesn't know exactly what Jimmy has been doing. What can you tell me about that scene? Because you also mentioned when we did the feature that there was a scene with Jimmy Crystal where you were like, ah, I see the human being here and now I know what to do with this character. Was that

24:28Nia DaCosta:that scene yes yeah when they're sitting i think there are a couple things in that scene that really i i loved in the script i love the way jack and rife performed it but in particular for jimmy crystal for jack's performance you know when kelson says um you you speak to him but you don't see him you hear him in your head and uh jimmy crystal says whole fucking time ian and it's just really it looks it seems exhausting actually the way he says that you're like oh this is sad like He is afflicted, and this is his way of dealing with it. And then when they're down at the riverside, and he says, you know, how about how he was confused?

25:06He was like, I haven't seen my dad since the moment from the first film that he talks about.

25:11Nia DaCosta:And he says, and then I saw you. And he kind of trails off, and they look at each other, and you're like, oh, this is a kid who needs a dad. Like, this is a guy who's incredibly lonely as well. and you know it doesn't justify anything he does obviously but you're like ah I can see the person there now I can actually watch him a bit more now I can actually understand why the things are happening the way they're happening and he's just sad I think he's a sad character but I love that scene I love seeing the two of them come together because you also are having these two different ethoses I don't know what the plural of ethos is but But you see these two different ethos clashing and coming together in a really, at first, really gentle, exploratory way.

25:59Nia DaCosta:And then you see them, of course, later clashing in a more violent and terrifying way. I'm going to come back to the jimmies in a sec. But before I do, I want to ask about one of Kelson's lines that has really stuck with me. And it's partly, I think there's some resonance in the line itself, but also how Rafe performs it. when he sat with Samson when they're taking the morphine and he's saying almost as a little mantra to himself nothing wrong with peace and respite there's something really interesting in that line what what does that line mean to you I mean I think he's like saying the world is terrifying and like if all you're getting from this is nothing but like I just need a break from the pain I'm in then that's fine and he's also talking about himself it's like yeah like he also like indulges and the morphine because he wants peace and respite as well.

26:49Nia DaCosta:And he's telling himself as well that there's nothing wrong with it. Like, this is, what else is there to do, frankly? And I think that's really true. I think it's like, now, drug addiction. Don't wish that on anyone. But I think in the sense of, like, escapism, just taking a fucking break from the horrors of what's around you, like, yeah, you should do that. Like, you shouldn't be expected to wade into it 24-7. and also I think it speaks to like how they're they're both yes one is infected one's not infected but they're both lonely they're both in pain and they're both a bit trapped in a way well let's get on to the jimmies because I can see our time is already taking on and there is so much to discuss with those guys we have to talk about the barn sequence near oh my god it is a lot that sequence it was interesting though because in the other in the other 28 films you know they are scary films there is an intensity to them the chase factor of the infected is always terrifying but this one more than any of the others has some really like sadistic gore going on what was it like for you as a filmmaker balancing that with the sort of established 28 years later world um well i think the thing that was interesting about that is again there's like a choicefulness about about it that makes it horrifying that there's a group of people who are like this is what we're gonna do with our time this is how we're gonna feel something this is how we're chasing dopamine um torture sadism essentially um we're calling it charity but this is how we exercise our fear and our horror and our rage um now the barn sequence i think again this dichotomy between Kelson and Jimmy's worldviews.

28:33There's like a beauty to what, how Kelson lives and what he

28:36Nia DaCosta:believes. And then there's a brutality to Jimmy. And so they had to be equal and that scene had to have impact. I didn't want to like, I didn't want it to ever feel like we were reveling in it or like enjoying it or have it feel like torture porn. But I knew I had to make sure that it really made people feel, it's not supposed to feel good, you know? And I think sometimes like violence can be orgiastic in a film. It can feel really like, whoa, like, you know, like at the end of the substance when all the blood's like flying everywhere. It's like, wah! You know, it's like you're laughing. It's crazy.

29:13Nia DaCosta:It's brutal. It's disgusting. It's fun. This was never supposed to be fun. And I think because it is torture, no matter how much you pull back, it's always going to feel awful because it's, again, it's choice, choicefulness to treat people this way. And that's really distressing. But it had to be that because when you realize the jimmies are going to come across kelson the stakes have to feel really high um that's like the engine for the whole back half of the film um but approaching as a filmmaker you balance it on the day you balance it on the edit and then you balance it when you're testing and you're and you're you're and showing it even to like my friends and just seeing okay like what's the limit because we have to touch the limit but let's not go past it yeah we had erin Kellyman and some of the other guys guested with us at our Live Empire podcast on Friday night and had a chat with them.

30:02Erin said there was a lot more where that came from. Tell me, I hate to use the phrase stripping it back in this context, but tell me about stripping back some of the gore there.

30:12Nia DaCosta:Yeah, it's yeah, I mean we shot stuff we did not put in the film, or we just like, you know, we cut, we held longer maybe in earlier, I think earlier cuts. Again, it was like measuring how much we could do before it felt, and for some people it will be too much because not everyone has the same sort of ability to take that sort of thing. But yeah, there's a lot more that came from. She's obviously right. You can say that about any scene of any kind, but yeah, for sure. We were working through some things. I want to ask about the overall arc of the Jimmy's story here because I thought it was really interesting that as an audience, a lot of the film is us understanding and learning contextually what the jimmy's belief structure is about about the fist and the fingers and about the rules the uh so lord jimmy crystal has imposed uh on this group of people at the same time what we're actually watching is the downfall of the jimmies they all they're all getting bumped off we there's a point after the barn scene where it's like oh there are not many fingers left in this fist um was that always an interesting part of alex's screenplay that it was like part of what this story is really is, is the end of the Jimmies.

31:27Nia DaCosta:Yeah, for sure. Cause that was something that I, it's why I didn't feel like I was making a middle film. It's why, cause you have these, you have full arcs for, for Kelson, you have full arcs for, for Samson and the Jimmies. Obviously Samson's story could, could continue on because he, he, he, he's alive and some other characters, you know, their, their, their story can continue on. But, but I liked that we can, we got this full, full circularity with the Jimmies. You have a beginning, middle, and end for them and for Kelson. And it's thematically rich and it's super important and I think hopeful.

31:59Because even though Kelson dies at the end of the film, what doesn't die is his worldview.

32:06Nia DaCosta:Because the last thing you see in the film is someone choosing to do good, choosing to help people. And we know where those people came from, but he doesn't care about that. It's just the right thing to do. So I think that's more than anything. I think that yes, the jimmies are all die, but in a way they kind of all get punished for what they've done. I mean, they had it coming. I think, I think we're okay. They absolutely had it coming. But I will say in the barn sequence, one of the things that was really important to me was that you don't see the jimmies enjoying it for the most part. When we cut back into the sequence, like obviously in the beginning, they're like, come on, I'm going to fuck you up.

32:43Nia DaCosta:And you have that first cut and then we cut away. But when we come back to the barn scene, after they've basically skinned everyone, one person's throwing up. Another person is in a whole other world, just like tapping their heads or rocking back and forth. And it's like, oh, this probably doesn't come naturally to them, actually. Like they've subsumed this identity because it's the only way they thought they could be safe. Because this person who saved them maybe or told them, you know, I got your back, I can keep you safe. This is the trade-off. And I think people do that a lot. you know, sacrifice other people for their sense of safety.

33:18Nia DaCosta:And, but I think because of that, because they're not like, well, yeah, you know, the whole scene, you also feel like, oh, this is just sad and dark in a different way too. Yeah. And they all have sad, horrible deaths as well. They're all like in it until suddenly they are dying themselves. And they're like, oh, you see them as children. You see them as like, oh, this, this is sad. Actually. I want to touch on the big deaths before our time is up. kelson's death um it's it's crushing but you know that he's given his life in service of something good because it's all for spike i want to ask about that moment that he notices spike because that really is the turning point for kelson yeah um obviously spike has his mask on um is it all in the eyes is it that like kelson as a character who sees the humanity in people does he recognize eyes spike's eyes how did you craft that moment um where kelson notices that it's spike i we didn't like necessarily define like oh this is what it was but i mean when you see someone move when you see like the shape of them you know you're kind of like hmm i feel like there are a couple moments in scene where he's looking and he's like okay anyway i'm doing this other thing but then when you have that moment where he's like really looks he's not sure until he takes the mask off and he's like oh god um but also i think so many things are happening for kelson in that scene.

34:36Nia DaCosta:One, he's like, oh, these people literally go around torturing people. Okay, cool. Two, he's like, oh, these are children. Like, what on God's green earth is happening? And then three, like, oh, that's Spike. Oh no, you know? So I think the whole scene, he's kind of battling with his own morals. Like, do I keep this going? He has his own safety to think about. He has Samson to think about, because he hasn't seen Samson since their big treatment. And then at the end, you know, again, he chooses, He chooses to do the right thing. And even though he knows that that puts his life deeply at risk, which makes his death even sadder.

35:13It is. It's tragic. And then at the same time as the opposite of that, the amount that I wanted to cheer at Jimmy Crystal's death, as much as we see how damaged he is. But the fact that Spike is the one who sticks the knife in, that was perversely why I wanted to cheer at the same time. I don't want that to be Spike's legacy.

35:35Nia DaCosta:Yeah. I think again, listen, like Spike's been through a lot and he's like enough. It's like, I'm like, you know, and we'll see what he like, what he goes through in the next film. But I think again, it's, it's this coming of age story and it's a dark world. And part of that coming of age, I think includes the death of, of Jimmy at his hands. And it feels like Jimmy, I mean, he always had to be crucified, right? That's his upside down cross was his sign. Yeah. uh yeah that's a really intense way to take him out um yeah tell me about building up to that moment of course kelly would or kelly jimmy yank's real name kelly of course kelly would be the one to be like yeah yeah yeah i just learned there's no devil so i'm gonna we're still gonna choose evil she's like we're like we could just end it but no we're gonna give him a taste of his own medicine which is you know poetic justice um does not have to be an english major to get there on you know, for her.

36:28Nia DaCosta:But I think for me building up to that, the most important part of that sequence to me is her come to Jesus moment, sort of, no pun intended, of Kelson saying, she says, you know, so you're not old Nick. And he goes, no, nothing is, no one is, there's just us. And that actually is like the most beautiful thing. Like that, that's how he looks at the world. He's like, there's just us. And isn't that amazing? There's just us. So we have a duty to each other like there's just us so like what are we doing you know and i think that that that from god that line when i read it in the script i was just like this is so beautiful like really sad but really beautiful and the kelly or jimmy inc's response to that is like my my duty to the world then is like fuck this guy nail him to the cross get him gone yeah exactly yeah and then she can decide who she's going to be in the next in the next uh film if she's if she's there you know So Jimmy Crystal then, under the influence of those drugs and everything that he's gone through, and he's bleeding out, obviously he's got the stab in his side.

37:31The Christ imagery is very much there. And he sees Samson as the devil coming in with horns and everything. That's an incredible moment as well. What was that like as a filmmaker? Because that might be, I can imagine, be a difficult image to kind of pull off the right level of it being kind of you're in that character's head in their reality and there's a drugginess, wooziness to it. But at the same time, it has to feel kind of real and believable. Yeah. Tell me about that moment.

38:00Nia DaCosta:Yeah, that was really fun. That's another thing where we have a lot more on the floor. For me, it was like. this has to feel completely in his point of view um i think there's literally only one shot where it's not literally upside down and you know lens baby like sort of like his blurry like fucked up dying point of view and then you have this cut to reality which i find really powerful um because you just have this man and again there's there's no god there's no devil there's just us and like jimmy dies feeling that again his father has forsaken him but also realizing that he's completely alone and then kelson dies knowing that his his friend is okay um so you know again what a happy ending there's a lot of deaths at the end of this film but samson is still alive and we have that incredible scene with samson on the train the best i'm gonna say no ticket scene since Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

39:02Nia DaCosta:Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about that moment and bringing Samson some kind of clarity in that sequence because that's an amazing moment. I love that whole sequence. I think it's great because one, you have... We've been slowly changing Samson from the beginning of the film. His prosthetics change, his lenses change. And I knew that as soon as he comes out of that flashback, he's going to have no lenses. He's just going to be kind of just like a person. But then he has to fight for his life to hold on to his humanity. So the flashback was really exciting because, one, I wanted to connect to the moon scene and be like, oh, this is the last thing he was doing before, you know, he got basically infected.

39:44Nia DaCosta:There's a little nod. Some people see it. Some people don't. There's like you see an infected person at the end of the train. And so it's sort of like, oh, this is like this is this is when it happens, essentially. And then we see to see what life was. We're like, oh, right. Like people are here listening to their Walkmans and playing their Game Boys. And some people are dressed like they're still in the 80s. And some people are very up the time. And then you see his parents just talking about stuff. And I knew I wanted to see Samson as an adult as he imagines he would have been if he hadn't been infected.

40:17Nia DaCosta:It was really important to me to have an image of Chai as not in the infected makeup. of just being as a person because I, because his humanity is not just a character, but also as an actor was really important to me to put into the film. So that was my thinking around that. And then you have this crazy fight scene. He's in fact of being like, we think you're an alpha, but you're not. And then you said something, you start talking, you're dead, you're dead to us. Samson's continuation in this world and what he is now is a big question that gives us some hope for the future as we head into the third film.

40:51and again as we said spike and jimmy inc kelly running off together we see them running towards jim in that coder at the end my last question i've got to let you go is um how far have those characters gone when we see them in the coder has it been a while since we left them um at the bone temple what can you tell me about um spike and uh kelly's side of that i can say we'll find that out

41:18Nia DaCosta:in the third film. What I will say is that Alfie is now taller than me and his voice has dropped. So whatever time that takes to happen, I'm going to assume it's the time that it's between the two movies. But again, we'll find out in the third film. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Nia. It's been really lovely to chat through all of this. There's so much more I can ask. I know. It's been a blast. Thank you. No, absolutely. Okay. That was Nia DaCosta talking to Ben about The Bone Temple. Let's start with general reactions to this movie. I said it was terrific you may disagree does anyone disagree first of all or are we all very much on board with this movie I'm on the terrific train choo choo which is actually stopped and has been stopped for 28 years and it's just kind of mouldering on a sidetrack no sorry I don't have a ticket I do have a ticket for that train because I'm also on the terrific train yeah this is becoming a thing now I guess it is we're running with the I've got no train jokes to make but I loved it I loved it as well yeah very much so so you're very much a peak movie or was it an off-peak movie?

42:18You think it's a... Oh, dear Lord. It's gone too far. Oh, God. First class carriage. Yeah. First class carriage. Yeah, that would have been better. It would. Well, hey, I can do it again and make it feel like I... So would you say it's a first class movie? That's a great joke, Chris. I would say that. I would. Thanks, straight man of the year. Every great comedy double act needs a straight man and that's what Mike is. I guess so. Yeah. Anyway, yes, it's terrific. I thought it was great. Do you think it says as good as the last movie, 28 years later. It's a different kettle of fish, isn't it? It's a very different beast.

42:53I may even prefer it. I think this one is so barmy, complimentary. And I just really enjoyed that I didn't know from one minute to the next where it was going. And I thought that was fantastic. This has not been the most traditional horror franchise. This is not one where you're like, well, those four teenagers are definitely going to die. And the only question is whether these two teenagers die. You know, it's not one of those and never has been. But I think it's really just doing some interesting narrative things here. And I think it's fascinating to kind of explore how much are the infected, the problem at this point, and how much are people the thing you really got to worry about?

43:38You know, how much is, are any of the Jimmy's victims and how much are they totally terrifying fucking sociopaths. You know, it's a really interesting kind of spectrum for a film to be operating on. Yeah, very much so. Mike, what do you stand on? Yeah, I'm starting to think, it's been a week since I've seen it and the more I think about it, the more I think I loved it more than 28 years later, actually. And I was a big fan of 28 years later last year as well. Yeah, same. But I think that film in particular, it was very much a film of kind of two halves, wasn't it? And I think you could sort of feel the mechanics of, It's kind of returning to this world.

44:14It's putting us back in the world of these kind of zombies and the infected. And then it's kind of setting up something new in the second half. I think this movie just as a kind of single narrative, as a kind of its own little contained story almost, I think, works really well. It also has some of the more, as a horror fan, it has some of the more disturbing, horrific kind of human horror that this franchise has ever had. I actually found this more frightening and disturbing than any other movie in this franchise as well, because of the jimmies. So, yeah, I loved it. I haven't stopped thinking about it.

44:41we'll get into that in two seconds ben where do you stand i think it's a tiny tiny fraction below 28 years later for me which i just think is like absolutely exceptional this one i think is incredibly well done if we're keeping the train metaphor going there was a possibility that not having danny boyle could have resulted in a bit of like a rail replacement bus service situation and it is not that at all near to costa i think did an incredible job um amazing script by alex Garland the one-two punch of both of these films I think is something genuinely extraordinary and extremely special and I feel so so so invigorated by both of these films but I think it's a slightly more it's a very very weird film but it's also a slightly more conventional film than 28 years later what do you think I think so just because of the Danny Boyle craziness the the sort of experimental cameras yeah the the night vision the night vision the some of the really psychedelic stuff going on in that I think there is just an extra frisson of madness to the boil one that I really really really resonate with but this one on a narrative level is doing kind of crazier things but they go they go really hand in hand but yeah this one's a tiny fraction below 28 for me 28 years so Helen do you think this is more experimental or as crazy as the last one?

46:08I just feel like in narrative terms, it feels much more daring to me. The last one narratively felt quite standard post-apocalyptic. We have the survivor community, which has big walls and they go out hunting and then things happen when they go out hunting. And it wasn't all, to be clear, I don't want to start slagging off 28 years later because I also thought it was fantastic but it was you know it was the world setup felt a little bit more stable in that one than it does here this feels really out there because you again I think it's a film of two halves but they're not front and back end they're sort of mixed together woven yeah and so on one hand you have this really weird bizarre are the fascinating story of the Doctor and the Alpha.

46:58And on the other hand, you have this terrified kid who's fallen in with the worst possible people and is trying to figure out an escape. And they do cross over, obviously, but they're quite distinct for quite a lot of the film. And I find that really, really interesting. And that introduced a lot of, like I say, narrative tension for me because I just didn't know who, if anyone, was going to survive at any point. I also think the last five minutes are more satisfying than the last five minutes of 28 years later. Even if we never got a third movie, you could see the end of this as being a happy ending, I think.

47:32Whereas the end of the previous one, you just go, what the hell was that? And it was intriguing, but it was very much like, this is chapter one, wait for chapter two. Whereas this movie felt more of a whole, I would say. Yeah, this one's interesting because, okay, before we get into the movie specifically, let's talk about how it's doing at the box office and whether this ending is designed as an ending. Now, it was announced about a month before the movie came out that they are moving ahead. Alex Garland is writing the third 28 Years Later movie. Obviously, Cillian Murphy shows up at the end of this movie as Jim returning from the first film 28 Days Later, in case you're keeping score, and is clearly a nod as to the third chapter.

48:16But then it opened at the weekend in the States, and didn't do that well. It's done okay, but it's done about a half of what the first movie did. When I say the first movie, I mean 28 years later, which made about$120 million worldwide. This movie, I don't know if it's going to make half of that. It might. Yeah, which is a real shame. And I wonder if the unconventional nature of 28 years later, as much as we loved it, it was in our top 10 of the year I think Empire's top 10 of the year certainly the top 20 but I don't know whether regular cinema going punters loved it, maybe they were a bit put off by it and then the idea of another one I don't know if I want to see another one no matter how much we're banging the drum for it it's fantastic I hope I'm wrong about this but I wonder if this might make Sony a little bit reluctant to back that third movie now and maybe going into that Garland and Boyle you know in his capacity as kind of overseer of this iteration of the franchise anyway maybe went you know what let's leave it open ended enough but give it an ending so that Jimmy comes in Jimmy Crystal comes in and is dispatched in the same breath in the same movie so we're not leaving a load of tendrils waiting to be picked up for the third film I sort of disagree because I mean I will go full Rage Virus if they cancel that third movie I will completely lose my shit and go and live in the woods I think it's an option right?

49:53I wouldn't be surprised if I read a story saying it's been cancelled Do you not think that as much as this one has not done well part of the difficulty of this as you say maybe 28 years later was a slightly more challenging film than general audiences expected and this one the selling point is like you remember those crazy characters from the end and then the weird Ralph Fiennes character who you met for 10 minutes, it's a whole movie about them. And in the current landscape of things, I think audiences are generally very tired of anything that feels a bit like, oh, it's a spinoff with this side character.

50:26We've been so poisoned by bad versions of that. And I think it's a weird film to try and sell. It's a zombie movie that's not really interested in being a zombie movie. The big stars are Ralph Fiennes and Jack O 'Connell. obviously Jack O 'Connell had an incredible year last year with Sinners, but he is not like mega, mega A-list talent in terms of like box office draw. Once you get back to, okay, we're doing a final chapter and it's an ending and it's Danny Boyle and Cillian Murphy is back, Oscar winner Cillian Murphy reprising his role from the original film, that feels like a bigger box office prospect.

51:05True, but it surely would also mean a bigger budget, the bigger outlay for them and they might go what if we don't make it back? I don't know that Cillian Murphy demands that much. I'm sure he's not doing a little bit of a producer. No, he's not. Yeah, but I'm not saying he's not worth paying a decent chunk of change. What would you pay Cillian Murphy? I mean, well, I don't have very much so the answer is not very much. But say that you had Cate Blanchett with the budget. What would you pay? What would you pay Cillian Murphy? I can get Cate Blanchett. Oh my God. she's a brain dead fan I feel like she'd be brilliant in the 28 franchise anyway I look I'm not saying don't pay Killy Murphy lots of money to be very very clear I think he should be getting loads of those money what I am saying is if he wanted to do the film I think he'd do the film this is a guy who does not only make blockbusters this is a guy who very much will go off and make the tiniest film you've ever seen Steve Steve was like bigger than the one before that what was that the um Dave the something things little things oh yes small things small things all the small many small things small things like these that's a big 182 song yeah rock show what's my name again feeling this what's my name again what's my age again god this is a terrible big 182 podcast my point being I feel like if he wants to do it he'll do it and I think he will do it if the story is good and you know there's it seems like a like a good idea like he likes working with Danny Boyle.

52:35That was obviously a huge moment in his career. I think he came back for the love of it this time, as well as the money, I'm sure, I hope. But, you know, I don't think that's going to be the big sticking point. I don't think... I think on the scale of these things, these are not wildly expensive movies, and somebody should pony up the cash, is what I'm basically saying. Just make the fucking movie. Just make the fucking movie. Just make the fucking movie. Everybody wants to see it. Anyone who doesn't is an idiot. Make the fucking movie. Make the fucking movie. I do think one of the problems with this is I know this is getting good word of mouth.

53:06Everyone I've talked to about this movie has been raving about it. The only thing I worry is the sort of caveat that people have had, which is it is really disturbing. I mean, the way James, when we reviewed this on the regular podcast, talked about how disturbing that scene in the bar with the jimmies is. Yes. And it is really, really disturbing. And so I think there will be some people who have been like, you know what, I'm okay. And especially just the world right now, there's going to be a lot of people who are like, you know what, I'm okay. I don't necessarily need that in my life. And that is the big caveat for me with this film's chances at the box office of keeping those legs.

53:43Because it does have great reviews. It does have, you know, great, great takeaway. It's just that you do have to kind of gird your loins a little bit for it. Do you think people were taken a bit by surprise by the fact that it's showing up so soon as well? And maybe the title Bone Temple too, to be honest. I don't know. It's not really got the 28 days, years later thing attached to it as much, maybe. And also, as Ben said, it's kind of very much playing on the element of the previous film that maybe a lot of, particularly a lot of genre fans weren't as fussed about. The kind of more melancholy second half of the previous film that was Memento Moré and Bone Temples and then that crazy ending.

54:25And like you said, Ben, this movie is just playing on that element of the previous film to the point where maybe people went oh i just want to watch an infected rage you know zombie movie you know that's the thing and it very much isn't that i mean both of these films both these these recent entries in the in the franchise give you a few moments of the infected being infected and doing infected things and that's fine so it ticks that box but it's more interested in the evil that humans do than the than the instinctual evil, I guess, that the infected do in this movie. And there's markedly less infected in this one than there were in the last one.

55:02In terms of attacks, obviously, one infected plays a much bigger role here, but the number of attacks in the last one, off the top of my head, were probably seven or eight proper scary sequences, and there's maybe two here. Well, we didn't get the little chunky slow ones in this movie, did we? I forgot about those guys. They're coming. Give them a week. they'll get there eventually yeah they're still catching up they're just out of shot every scene we see they're just slowly out of shot wait yeah it's interesting that they kind of dropped that already maybe they thought that's a bit taft let's move on the fast ones are the scary ones we'll stick with them alright let's go backwards because you talked about the end and Cillian Murphy let's talk about Cillian Murphy and then we'll work back from there in the full Chris Nolan style so So what did you make of that, first of all?

55:53The fact that the movie ends as it does, and then we get Cillian Murphy and presumably, well, there's his daughter. Yeah. Presumably Naomi Harris is now dead in this franchise, I'm guessing. Or maybe she's just out. She could be shopping. She just popped down the shops. So what did we make of that ending? I sort of loved it. I sort of loved how casual and sunny and chilled it was. I loved the idea that in the middle of all this, he's got his little oasis, and they have a system for dealing with threats, and there are fences around the house and everything else, but they also have just a modicum of reality or something.

56:38I feel like Jim has grown up a remarkably light Cillian Murphy, if I'm honest. if I were going to quibble I didn't get that intellectual a vibe from him in the first film what do you mean the bike courier yeah who always seemed a bit lost and trying to figure out what the fuck was going on which to be fair he'd just woken up from a coma maybe Naomi Harris spent many years teaching him some stuff maybe that is the case they've been there for decades he's not got like TikTok brain rot like the rest of us he's been reading he's been reading history books he's been reading actual books yeah I love the the sort of slightly sharp commentary of those scenes.

57:18I thought that was not subtle, but very fun. And I just like the vibe of it. I like the idea that, okay, he can swing into action if somebody needs his help, but otherwise he's just sitting at home preparing his daughter for fake GCSEs, you know? It was just a nice vibe and a sort of nice balance for some of the Jimmy scenes. I had a lot of questions. First of all, my weird thing, I think I texted you guys this, James and Helen is, is that there are characters in this franchise now called Jamie, which is the Aaron Taylor Johnson character from the last movie. Jimmy, there's a whole bunch of Jimmys and a Jim.

57:57Now, I kind of like that because a lot of screenwriters will go, no, no, no, the names need to be really, really distinct. But that's not what real life is. We at one point had three Ians in the office. No, four maybe. No, three. We drew the line at four. We drew the line, okay. No. Three inns. Obviously, there's a couple of Chrises. That's just what life is. You bump into people with the same name as you. There were four Helens in my chemistry class in third year. Wow. And then it was a cull. They introduced a purge in Northern Ireland just to get rid of the ex-Helens. Too many Helens. This is what we were left with.

58:29Hey. And I'm so glad, Helen. There we are. That you triumphed over your fellow Helens. Thank you, thank you. That's obviously a daft point to make, but it's something that occurred to me. but I've got a lot of questions about Jim and the end of 28 Days Later because the end of 28 Days Later seems to suggest that Jim, Selina and that poor girl who can't act are going to be rescued oh yeah that girl she's dreadful she's bad she's bad I mean so bad I'm sorry she's died in the interim from being unable to act so we asked her to run away from the effect that she couldn't even do that she's a subscriber I want to say obviously well done on that great performance in the first movie anyway at the end of 28 days later the heavy inference is that they're about to be rescued right there you have the yeah I think the plane comes overhead and the plane flies overhead but then we see you know in the movie since planes will still fly overhead they're still keeping an eye on the island but they have no intention of landing yeah and And I think we saw them going out and putting up a big, you know, SOS, like, sheets on the field.

59:42But it's sort of, in the world that we've established since, it would make sense that they were not, in fact, picked up. They may have been dropped some supplies. But no more. We didn't see, like, the plane unfurling a big banner that just says, no. In French, non. Absolument pas. No. no rescue for you you English pig dogs Rosbeef it's a long banner it's a really really long banner the last movie the first movie oh this is going to get confusing the first movie 28 days later they're near Manchester right so that's where it all goes down with Brendan Gleeson and Christopher Eccleston and those bad soldier men and then presumably they're not that far away from Manchester because Jim gets shot at the end of the first movie and obviously in one iteration died at the end of that movie but was saved, thank God.

1:00:38And this isn't near Manchester or is it? Because Spike... I think it's much further north still, isn't it? Yeah, I get the impression they're up a bit, if that makes sense. I think they have... The northeast, are they? Near Newcastle. North East, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's where, you know, Spike was originally, right? And the sort of Holy Isle. The Holy Isle, exactly. And we saw the angel of the north. It doesn't seem like he's travelled a huge distance. No, but they were headed towards Scotland, weren't they? So they're headed north again. Oh, yeah. Were they? Weren't they? I can't tell where someone's walking just by the direction they're walking.

1:01:16Yeah, that's true. I'm not that good. But anyway, so yeah, I think it's definitely northy. Okay. I have many, many questions about what's happened to Jim and Selina and the girl who can't act in the interim. maybe she's back in this one and giving an Oscar worthy performance to the third one in which case I will eat my words or deny everything you could do that with a podcast I didn't say those words show me proof oh fuck anyway lots of questions one more question about that ending it was kind of spoiled wasn't it we were told that Killian Murphy by Danny Boyle you know he was saying oh Killian's in the next one he appears for a little bit in the next one and kind of hands over to the you know it's like a transition to the third movie and I kind of wish that they hadn't done that now.

1:02:00I had forgotten though, so that's fine. Oh yeah. I don't have a track of stuff, come on. I had absolutely remembered that that was coming but then because of all the craziness happening in the rest of the film, you're so caught up in the Jimmies and the Kelsons and the Samsons of it all that you sort of forget while you're watching the film like, ooh, we are going to get a little bit of Jim at the end of this and that's an exciting thing. I mean, I think the other thing, as Helen pointed out, the reason why it's great is because it's not just a, ha-ha, here's Jim. You've all been waiting for Jim.

1:02:30There's like substance to the scene. There's a point to him being there. There's a point to his role in the story that to me, so much of the Bone Temple, it's like an exercise in contrast. The whole film is showing you different things in the infected world, whether that's what the Jimmies are doing versus what Kelson is doing. Kelson and Samson the Jimmies and Kelson there are all these parallels between all of these players involved and it's kind of showing you these things side by side and saying like what's the difference between these things look at the contrast between these things and that then Jim coming in at the end as Helen said it is so normal he is living a normal ass life and he is learning history and passing history on the thing that the rest of the world or the nation seems to have lost in all of this and so the scene is more than just like huzzah, Cillian Murphy is here it's like ooh, now there is like an interesting new position with taking you from one world into a completely different world in a different way to it's doing that all the way through the film but it's taking you into another world that is extremely normal and it feels really jarring that contrast.

1:03:41What happens next? They help Spike and Kelly. Yeah. Because that's the last line, isn't it? Are we going to help them? And of course we are. Yeah. Which again, contrast to everything you've seen with the Jimmies. If they come across anybody, are we going to help them? No, we're going to fuck them up. And even kind of a contrast to Spike's own people who don't seem to be doing much outreach work, if you will. Yeah, they close their borders off to other people. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, presumably we're going to get those four as like a little gang in the next movie. I am interested in how we get on with those characters, though, and how, in particular, I think Spike is very much still redeemable, as it were, still saveable, still probably traumatized, but not going to have an impossible time coming back.

1:04:36I do worry, though, about, I was going to say Erin Kellyman, but other Jimmy. Yeah. that's a tougher challenge. And I think it's going to be really interesting how a third film deals with her because she has been a Jimmy. She has done those things. And she is also someone with compassion and with, you know, a certain amount of heart. And it's going to be a really interesting job, really, to develop that character. I think that's one of the most fascinating possibilities of this third film for me is seeing what they do with her. And I hope it is something really interesting. She's a fantastic actress, Erin Kellyman.

1:05:11and I really want to see her given something to sink her teeth into metaphorically. I mean, I think there's so much potential ground there because she is somebody by the end of this film where genuinely her entire belief structure, her entire conception of the world has fallen away before her very eyes. You see in the Kelson mega dance-off that she is like, oh, my fundamental belief in Satan has been validated and she seems energized by that. She's like, fuck Jimmy Crystal, but hell yeah, the devil, I'm in. That's my guy. Oh, it turns out he's real? Great. Everything we believe is real. And that moment when Kelson says to her, I'm not old Nick.

1:05:54No one is. Nothing is. There's just us. You see both her going like, oh my God, nothing I believe is real. But also you kind of feel because she has an empathy to her because she sort of strikes up this form with Spike that she is going to be open to trying to find a new belief system. And if she can get that from Jim, who is normal and knows history and can give some stability to her, I feel like she is potentially in a position, albeit with all the fucked up stuff that she has been through and that she has done, to absorb a proper way of existing. To be salvageable, as it were. No, I agree. I just feel like you know we don't know exactly what she's done but we know it was pretty fucking bad so it's going to be interesting to see how the film treats that I think knowing Alex Garland that's probably what that next film is going to spend some time on as well that element of it but she's also an amazing asset to have for them isn't she there's that amazing sequence when she just casually slits the throat of an infected and just carries on walking like it's nothing she's incredibly tough to have around and even the casual way she says to Jimmy oh yeah well I saw your dad he's just over in that field and he's like what the fuck are you talking about?

1:07:08So yeah, he's over there. I just saw him. I thought I'd let you know. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Okay, one last question about the next one. Do we think that we'll reconcile the two threads of the two movies and we'll get to see the community again and Aaron Taylor-Johnson and that thread with the infected baby that seemed to be human, which I thought maybe was setting something up in terms of how they're going to... I think there's a larger rage virus story running through both of these films and the death of Kelson is really interesting to me because he genuinely seems to be making progress with how they treat the virus.

1:07:45And I know it's only one example and Samson is a very unusual sample, of course. But it seems to me that they're heading towards some sort of evolution with the virus or some sort of way to tackle the virus. Very much so. Kelson's death means that that's lost now. So is the baby from the first movie who was born to an infected mother but seems to be human, is that going to become important? Is Jamie going to be out there looking for his son? I was going to say, we think that is Samson's child as well. So Samson, by the end of the film, it seems he's kept his lucidity. He has his mind back to an extent.

1:08:30But also, what is that? Because he was literally like a child when he was infected on the train. that we see in the flashback here. So he's still infected because he can't be, he's attacked by all the infected, he can't be like reinfected because he is infected, but also he has been treated to an extent that he has his consciousness back. And so what is that in relation to then, what is he now? He's the only one of him around in the whole world. The baby seems to not be infected. I wonder if there'll be an element of Samson maybe going to the community to try and reclaim the child if he knows that any of that exists.

1:09:07Yeah, well, also, I guess there's going to be a time jump, right? Because, for one thing, Alfie Williams is going to have grown up considerably. I mean, he's massive now. Exactly, right? And it could still be another two, three years, potentially, before we get another movie, if it happens. So there's going to have been a gap there. So I wonder what's going to happen. You know, that baby that was born might be three or four years old. Spike is going to be maybe an adult at this point, and maybe it will end with him kind of returning home to his family as like a man now. You know, maybe with Samson and you know, yeah, they come together in some way.

1:09:42Weirdly, I'm less interested in the community than I am in the other people out there. Samson, yes, but also... I'm interested in Jamie because I'd like to see how he is dealing with life post-Geordie Comer. He's a grade-A shit as well and I think that would be quite interesting. Is he capable of reflection and repentance and... Well, a really nice way to bring it full circle might be to have them go to London for the end as well. Like, if we end it where we begin and they somehow end up travelling south maybe for some reason to do with the infection or something that happens and we end up back in central London again, that would be a nice way to kind of bring it to a close.

1:10:20If they find Samson and realised what Kelson had done, there would be a compelling reason to try and get to some kind of radio capable of letting the rest of the world know that there's something worth investigating there's something worth experimenting on. There's something worth doing. They could also mention the baby, obviously, at that point. But I feel like that's a compelling reason to try to reach out to someone. You could get a drop, you know, a supply drop of, frankly, opiates and see if you can repeat the process a little bit. Except they don't know what the process is because the process died with Kelsen.

1:10:54Well, it depends how much Samson can say about what happened, you know? And so maybe he can bear some kind of witness after a two or three year time jump Samson might be sort of talking and yeah we don't really know do we but yeah alright let's talk about some of the key characters in this and then it'll lead us on to key moments let's start with Samson because as much as I love Kelson I think Ray Fiennes is incredible in this movie and is one of the performances in a horror film that absolutely should be in the Oscar conversation when next year comes around but won't be because it's a horror film he's amazing but Chai chai lewis parry i think is almost like the secret weapon of both of these films yeah and it's really amazing to me how much how many layers are to samson and when you first see him this great big hulking brute uh running around in the nip and you just think that's all he is and there's so much more to him and chai lewis parry i've said this before in the podcast but you know he's a stunt man and he's uh you know he's been cast in many many things over the years for his size and how hulking and foreboding he is and he hasn't been given the chance to really show off what he can do and suddenly here he is acting opposite Ray Fiennes and trying to play these different colours and different shades of this really really compelling character and he fucking knocks out of the park Yeah he's brilliant, he's really really good and I think it's an interesting job to do because there's only so much he can do at any point in the film, he has to it's about restraint, he can't signal too much too soon, it has to be a really really slow burn that character but I do think Ralph Fiennes is also off the fucking charts he's incredible isn't he oh my god and you know his big scene is one of the biggest I've seen in many many years I just loved it and imagine being one of the younger Jimmies who doesn't remember anything from before and then being blasted with that music and experiencing all that while tripping balls I would think it was the devil I mean 100 % 100 % it's pretty pretty strong stuff it's just amazing it's so funny and yet so terrifying and just everything in one and so clever oh it's so sweet those two their relationship throughout the movie is so sweet and wholesome isn't it like you really need it it really does work as like a soothing balm in between the Jimmy sequences I think I wasn't expecting to love it as much as I was I wasn't expecting Samson to become as important a character in this story as he became in this as well I love those little moments where it's just the two of them listening to Duran Duran and sort of chilling out and lying by some water.

1:13:33Or the scene when he goes to the train, I thought was really moving as well. Like, again, I wasn't expecting to find all of this stuff quite as moving as it was. It was beautiful. Genuinely one of my favorite line readings. I know it's only January 20th. What day is it? 21st? 22nd. I don't even know what fucking day it is. But we're only a couple of weeks into the year. But Jai Lewis-Parrie's delivery of, I don't have a ticket. I just first of all he properly speaks as well but that voice coming out of that guy incredible it was so good it was a real moment wasn't it and when he goes moon that's what happened it was so good and yet I was still worried all the time you know he is there's an edge of danger there is an edge of danger you're just worried because he can rip your fucking head off it reminded me of when you see people who like interact with wild animals who are like oh this is my friend who's a tiger and look he's cuddling me he's got his paws around me like any second that tiger looks like grizzly mad it felt like that but everything in this film I think is so surprisingly believable everything feels like it's grounded in a very real way which for how outlandish it all is I think is kind of incredible but to yeah to have a storyline where it's like hey we've managed to kind of chill out one of the infected and you strike up a bit of a relationship with that character, there's a version of that that is either cheesy or rubbish or not very believable.

1:15:00But it does feel like, okay, if he is sort of a wild being, we have real world examples of humans to an extent taming wild beasts, but also you constantly have that tension of they are wild animals and at any moment they could rip your head off. And I think as you say, Mike, all of the Kelson-Samsen stuff is so surprisingly sweet and them just like dancing to Rio together or Kelson's singing Rio and remembering it in his head. But then you feel like Samson's kind of remembering it in his head. But also to show that there is maybe a way back from the virus, but it is a very specific set of circumstances.

1:15:43It's not like an instant, I will inject you with the cure and now you are cured. It takes a long time. The morphine, the time and the exposure to certain things that trigger memories. and with Samson as well, the moon being one of the last things he saw as a child in the book. He's looking at the moon just before he's infected, and so it connects him to almost the last moment that he wasn't infected. It's a very specific set of circumstances, so it doesn't feel like an easy get-out for the rest of the franchise to be like, we can just cure everything. It also feels like because Britain has been abandoned, so it's not like there's a laboratory somewhere.

1:16:22So I think 28 weeks later at this point has been retconned out of existence. Yeah, pretty much. Which is a shame because it's a good film. It's got some great sequences in it. And I would recommend certainly that people watch it. But it's probably not considered to be part of the franchise. But let's say there's no laboratory, for example, where there's a bunch of good doctors, good scientists working on this stuff. And also, Kelsen stumbles upon this. He's using it for something else. Yeah, therapy, psychotherapy, plus drugs, plus, you know. And he's very dead by the end of this movie as well.

1:16:56Yeah, and the fact that Samson's an alpha as well, does that mean that this could only work on an alpha? It might not work on a regular infected? Yeah. Because they seem to have a bit more of a thought process anyway, right? Yes. They are more aware. They are able to plan a little bit. They are able to strategize maybe a tiny bit. So, you know, does that mean it's closer to the surface, I guess? I think that's such a good point as well about, as I was watching it, I don't think for one second was I ever thinking that this was going to be the means to eventually the narrative going, we're going to cure the rage virus.

1:17:32Like it didn't really feel like that. It didn't really feel like it was a narrative cog to eventually kind of, I don't know, restore equilibrium or anything. It doesn't feel like that's something they'd be interested in. No, it didn't seem interested in that. It was just, you're just spending time with these two characters, finding a connection to each other, right? And that was what made it work so well, I think. and maybe in the bigger scheme of things with what Alex Garland and Danny Boyle and everybody involved wants to say with these films I think these films are so interesting going way back to 28 Days Later and what they say about rage and how angry we all are and how quickly that can be unleashed and I feel like it was really prescient with 28 Days Later because now we are so polarized and everything in the cultural sphere is turning us against each other, that people are weaponizing that to turn us against each other.

1:18:22Well, Chris, if you watch my three-hour YouTube rant about The Last Jedi... I did, but the last hour was just you screaming. Yes, it is. And shaking my fist at Kathleen Kennedy, who has... No, that is all a joke. I love Kathleen Kennedy. I love those movies. I was wondering. I was like, what the hell? Okay. I've been replaced by a pod person. But I feel like these films are very prescient and very on the money about what they say about rage and our relationship to each other. And I feel like the Samson thread, if not a kind of, we can cure everybody, get out, was instead more of a, we don't have to live like this.

1:19:03There is a way back from this conceptually. There is, you know, there is a way forward. There is a way to kind of quell the rage and maybe we should be working towards that. And the fact that the, let's talk about Kelsey now, because the fact that he is the character who points the way for that is really, really interesting. Because this is a character who, as far as I can tell in both movies, is just this figure of pure good. And he doesn't seem to have rage in him. If it was there, maybe he was upset about losing his loved ones, as you would be. It's all gone. It's all spent now. And again, this is a really unconventional route for Garland and Boyle to take with this character.

1:19:49Because when I first saw him in the Bone Temple, I thought, okay, so he's presenting himself to Jodie Comer and to Spike as a good guy, as a good doctor. But there's got to be more than that. But can we trust him? Yeah, can we trust him? He's clearly evil. There's clearly something up with this guy. No. What you see is what you get, which is just a good man, a good soul. Yeah, I think it is interesting, though. Like, he is, you know, boiling bodies and reducing them to their component parts. And it is done in service of creating a monument to what has been lost. And there is a beauty to that. But there is also a horror to that.

1:20:28And I thought that was a really fascinating way of approaching this. and maybe then he had to be a doctor because anyone else wouldn't have the necessary distance from all those bodies as bodies to do that, to take them apart and still honour them as people, if that makes sense. Because it's a twisted thing to do. He's not 100 % sane. No, no, no. This is why you still feel the contrast to Jim at the end of the film because we like Kelson, we believe he is truly a good person, but he's also cracked, you know? He's not doing normal things. One of my favourite moments in the film that I brought up to Nia DaCosta, and I don't, I can't remember exactly how we talked about it.

1:21:19I feel like I didn't express necessarily in my question to her exactly what I wanted to say. But that moment with Rafe, with Kelson, when he's with Samson and he's dosed Samson with morphine and has noticed that he's calmed him down and he's like, nothing wrong with a little piece of respite. And then he doses himself with morphine and he just sort of repeats that to himself a couple of times of nothing wrong with a little piece of respite. And it feels like to me, I was really affected by that moment because it felt like he has figured out his way of existing in this world. Yes, he is creating his own temple.

1:21:58He keeps himself busy. he creates a monument to the dead, he holds on to what is important, but also it is this insane way of living that is so removed from the normal life he thought he was going to lead. And in that moment, as he's repeating that phrase to himself, it came across to me as like a bit of a moment of like allowing himself to feel like the sadness and the horror of the world that he's been forced to live in, that he is acknowledging the sadness and the horror of it all and then dosing himself to take that away of like i recognize the pain but also i deserve that yeah girls on film can only do so much yeah yeah um and so he yeah you see him let uh yeah let the walls down a bit and let the the hurt crash in and then administer himself some relief from that and i thought that was really moving well also ben i know we talked about this together before that there are deliberate sort of parallels between those two characters too right i mean Kelson, there's moments when he just like gets completely naked and he's again, he requires that kind of calming drug at times as well.

1:23:07The way that he looks that, you know, covered in the iodine or whatever, and he's kind of red. He almost looks like he could be some sort of infected monster from a distance, doesn't he? And yeah, he's the antithesis of rage as well. He's this like calm, peaceful presence as well. But I think they deliberately draw the sort of parallels between Samson and Kelson in this movie too that how different actually are they from each other there's a parallel as well to Jim at the end of the first film where he recovers himself in mud suit to break into them but also he's so enraged that he can't tell whether he's been infected or not exactly it's all there at a certain point Kelson and Samson I keep saying Samsung Samsung at some point Kelson and Samson they're just two dudes hanging out just hanging in the field but just on dance hanging out with their wang out.

1:23:54Yeah. Dudes rock. This is a dudes rock movie apart from when the jimmies are involved. In which case dudes do absolutely not rock. It's basically a stoner bro movie. Half of it, you know. Cheech and John. Jay and Silent Bob. Kelson and Samson. Don't be wrong, Samson. Oh, that's a great read of it. All right, let's talk very quickly because we need to talk about the jimmies about Kelson's record collection. and I know Helen you've talked about it already but that amazing Iron Maiden Oh my god dance number if you can get Ralph Fiennes to dance in your movie get Ralph Fiennes to dance in your movie it's an eclectic record collection I asked Ralph Fiennes if they were all his records but surely he said yes but surely he's just scavenged them from different places around the northeast of England Yeah but he might be recreating his own record collection So his record collection this is a man and listen my music taste is a broad church as well but he loves Duran Duran Radiohead and Iron Maiden someone claimed that Radiohead wasn't available on vinyl in the UK in 2003 is this the case?

1:25:04it's not that it was I think Jane Schoenbrunn the director of I Saw the TV Glow correctly pointed out that the original vinyl release of Kid A is two 10 inch records it's not one 12 inch record now there is a version that is a 12 inch record I think my copy of Kid A is also on double 10-inch vinyl I don't have any Maiden and I don't have any Duran Duran so I don't have the Kelson collection but yeah that we see him put on a 12-inch record Kid A would not have been there's a lot of 12-inch in this movie I was like here it comes here comes a 12-inch joke 28 inches later etc or is it a double 10-inch?

1:25:49oh no oh no oh no oh no I'm blushing I'm blushing now but yeah but can I point out as well that in 2000 when was it 2002 this movie the first one came out in real life there wasn't an infected rage virus sweeping through London so I'm guessing in this world that final came out before the infection yeah it came out but it wouldn't have been on a 12 inch record it would have been on but maybe in this world in this world in this world I was mainly caught up with the fact that like oh man in Rainbows they never got in Rainbows best Radiohead album and like Radiohead's journey ending with K-Day and Amnesiac incredible records but would have sent Britain off the edge there you go they never came back around triggering the rage virus yeah I mean it wouldn't have helped the real national anthem is the national anthem that would be great if they're like they never got to see a Marvel movie you know Maybe they were on tour during 2002 when the outbreak happened.

1:26:51And so, you know, those other Swedish characters with their iPhones are listening to Amnesia. The rest of the world has Im Rainbows. That's a good point. That's the cure. They bring Im Rainbows. Not the band. Not the cure. Robert Smith. No, they're dead. The rest of the world has Im Rainbows. They bring a copy of Im Rainbows to the UK. They start to play it and all the infected are like, oh, do you know what? This might be the best one. Weird fishes on their G. I could see Danny Boyle doing that to be honest he's created a world where nobody remembers in rainbows just like yesterday I don't think it's the best Radiohead album do you not think so?

1:27:28no I do think it is I think it's okay computer it's the Benz it's not the Benz yeah it's alright there's only one way to settle this Helen I have no strong opinions thank you what do you mean I know you I exclude myself from this narrative you have plenty they're from Oxford you went to school in Oxford I actually went to university with the cousin of Tom York oh there you go but I still have no strong opinions about Radiohead albums it's a shame because Samson would really love a moon it's cool the final Radiohead album that's where you record this I'm trying to find out whether Radiohead were on tour in 2001 this is a good use of my time oh my god so the Mick Garris directed a version of The Stand the miniseries of The Stand I will never forget this Molly Ringwald's character Fran says very early on oh I've got tickets to see REM and then obviously Captain Trips happens and I was just thinking not to fucking REM it doesn't oh yeah I don't want to I don't want to think of Michael Stipe dying horribly from Captain Trips sorry everybody hurts sometimes oh anyway the end of the world as we know it yeah and he doesn't feel fine he feels fucking frankly terrible anyway Jimmy's should we talk about Jimmy's absolutely terrifying scariest thing this franchise has ever had I would say genuinely just the wigs just the wigs just that sequence when it begins in the pool the fight in the pool I was like oh my god this film's gonna be hardcore I mean it's so fucking gnarly yeah oh god I mean honestly the fight in the pool I felt like oh I've seen this before you know we've seen this in like the dark night you know there's there's two places in my gang so you have to fight each other to get the place.

1:29:16But it just got... Thinking about it being per little Alfie Williams or per little Spike, you're like, no, but he's nice. Don't do that. And then it just got worse from there. It just got worse. Instead of that being as bad as it got. But it's the bleeding out. It's the... Was it the femoral artery? No. No thanks. No, do not want. And when that Jimmy, I think that's Jimmy Shite. When Jimmy Shite bleeds out, then that mental shift for himself from hey I'm an evil Jimmy I'm gonna fuck him up blah blah blah to like somebody help me up I'm a kid I'm a kid and you feel that with all the Jimmy's as well they have a lot of there's a lot of bad things that happen to the Jimmy's but it's fine because they do a lot of bad things to other people but yeah you see in those moments when shit gets real you see them as kids again and it makes it more disturbing and sad yeah yeah that scene's fucking horrible and you know it's just a little taste of the violence to come and as we've said already and as James said on the regular podcast he couldn't stomach the violence and I think a lot of people have felt that way the barn sequence where they're torturing poor Andy Serkis' kid for no good reason Is that Andy Serkis' kid?

1:30:32He's the kid who won't be king That's yeah that's the kid from The Kid Who Won't Be King That's Louis Ashbourne's circus and I only realised it was him when he gets shot through the chest with an arrow and he falls down and in that moment as he falls down in pain he's a spitting image of his dad there you go which is which is so weird I was like holy shit that's the kid and now he's got abs and everything and he's dead yeah life really comes to you fast it really does but that sequence that sequence alone with the skinning I think has been a lot of people's line in the sand we were all you know Spike running outside to throw up, basically.

1:31:14Yeah, very much so. But Mike, as an evolution of a horror guy, what did you think about the horror in this? Yeah, I thought it was genuinely one of the more disturbing things I've seen in a long time. I think it's just, everyone has different types of horror, right? That affects them more. But for me, it is that kind of human-on-human horror and sadism and terror that you get in this sequence. It's like watching a home invasion movie. It's like watching a French movie like Martyrs, right? It feels like the more extreme, more human end of the horror spectrum. And I found it really hard to watch.

1:31:47I was sat at 10am on the front row of Sony's screening room just going, oh my god, this is a lot. So I was very grateful for the nice, you know, ordinary world sequences that came after it. Yeah, Erin Kellyman was one of our guests at episode 700, the live episode. And she was telling me in the green room, oh, there was way, way, way more of that than you saw. This is the really, I mean, it's horrible to use the word stripped, back in that context please don't this is the heavily stripped back version of that scene and it is still extremely gnarly I mean it doesn't the film doesn't focus on the people who have been flayed but you see them a lot on the background of other moments in the barn and you you just even vaguely imagining the enduring pain it's not a momentary pain it is like they are going to be yeah it's the I think that's it I don't even think you need to see I don't think it would be worse if you saw more I think if anything it might be better because I think most of that scene is playing out in your head and I think also it's the injustice of it as well, I mean not that there's a just way to skin somebody, I'm not saying that but what I'm saying is this is a family that has survived a zombie apocalypse this is a family that has worked together successfully hunted, farmed you know scrabbled by to survive for 28 years in these horrendous conditions and then these little fucks turn up and give them the worst deaths possible you know there's no it's not a it's not a obviously it's not a justice thing but it's like it's the frustration of it yeah the nihilism is what's frustrating about it I agree I think I think had it been you know way more gory I don't know whether that would have made it more disturbing it's just the idea of it isn't it it's the concept of it it's still even though you don't focus on the gore it's just a very sustained sequence of sadism and pain and that is what makes it you know i've seen gorier things you know hostile films or sore movies are gorier but they're not sore and hostile are not more disturbing or upsetting i think than this sequence and there's a difference isn't there i think you know partly because as we've said against all the odds this does feel grounded in something very real.

1:34:07Like, we don't have a zombie apocalypse, thankfully. Yeah, long may it remain so. And I think for us as British viewers, British Isles viewers, we feel an extra connection to this. Like, the landscapes are very specifically British. The cottages are very specifically British. It's on home territory, and it feels all the scarier for that. I think that 28 Days Later may still be the scariest for me, simply because it is literally hitting me where I live. You know, it's an East London film. And it is absolutely freaking terrifying, because I feel like we are, you know, we depend on each other being sane to make civilization work.

1:34:51And it is a film where everybody else suddenly goes insane. And so that one genuinely still to me is probably one of the most terrifying horror movies I've ever seen. this one's terrifying in a different way this is just terrifying on a kind of moral level this is terrifying on a just on again you're dependent on the whim of a crazy person in this case they're a bit like they remind me a bit of like Orange Droogs or something right and it's that same level of it's deeply uncomfortable and disturbing to see it through but they are all being coerced and brainwashed and sold a pup by this guy Sir Jimmy Crystal and the movie has a really I think interesting take on faith and belief systems and what we tell ourselves to get by and how much of this does he actually believe because whenever Aaron Killerman comes back and goes I've just seen your dad it's like what do you mean you've just seen my dad because I'm not sure that I believe in him either but okay this is interesting and so it's got really interesting takes on all of those aspects through this one character his scene with Fiennes off the fucking charts.

1:36:03Easily one of the best scenes in the film. It's so scary and yet so fascinating. And yet it's all of that that you just said, Chris. It's all about how much of this is a sincere belief, how much is something he's constructed, how much is he scrabbling to stay ahead of his own creation a little bit. Because it's unraveling really pretty fucking quickly. It's unraveling and he has created monsters and he may be a monster himself, but he's still dependent on them not just fucking cutting his throat while he sleeps. You know, it's a really, really fascinating balance of power in that scene. And the way that Kelsen responds and sort of with compassion again but with also terror.

1:36:44I mean, he's fucking terrified of Jim at that point. Yeah, doesn't he say it's like the first time he's felt fear in years or something? He tells Samson and when you're saying that to an author that means something. Yeah, because the first time I watched it I was absolutely terrified for Kelson in that scene because he's separated from his blowpipe. He can't shoot morphine into Sir Jimmy. I'm not going to call him Sir Jimmy because I don't think he was given that title by the Queen or the King. I don't think he was nominated in the New Year's birthday honours list. The Queen's birthday honours in the New Year's honours list.

1:37:20So I'm not going to give him the satisfaction of that title. But that scene I thought was just absolutely... And you can just see the moment that it dawns on Kelson is like, oh, this guy is... Cuckoo bananas. Yes, he is. But then I feel like in that scene as well, we feel Kelson having compassion for Jimmy. And for going like, okay, clearly this guy is not well and has been through a lot. And he, as with Samson, is like, how can I treat this guy? First up, let's just do a bit of talking therapy. Tell me your story. Tell me what you hear. Tell me what you see. and I really do believe that Jimmy Crystal does hear a voice that he believes to be his father.

1:38:03I feel like the constructed mythology, the cult that he's created, he knows that that is a construction, that is a construction that affords him power. But the fundamental idea of like, I think my dad might be Satan and he speaks to me, I think is real. And anybody in that situation, that would be a horrible way to live. and you feel like Kelsen is somebody who is able to offer him that moment of like that you hear things that aren't there and that's awful for you. And in the same way that Kelsen is treating Samson, who is this rage-filled guy who does violent things, who entered into this apocalypse as an innocent child and treats his psychosis with drugs and attempts to kind of find some peace and respite for Samson, he's doing the same for Jimmy.

1:38:59Jimmy is also a kid brought into this infected world who now is going around... Similar age to Samson. He's going around doing incredibly violent things and experiencing a level of psychosis, hearing things that aren't there. And Kelson wants to offer him some respite or at least hear him out. Yeah, because there's a parallel again there, isn't there? Because they sort of touch a little bit upon what the infected, what Samson sees and hears in his head, right? And that he sees other people's faces as looking monstrous, I think. There's like a tiny little snippet, isn't there? I love that idea, yeah.

1:39:35And so there's this idea that, like you said, Ben, there's not maybe that big a difference between somebody like Jimmy and the infected in that they both hear and see constantly things that aren't there and it is scratching at their brain and driving them mad, basically, and lead them to rage-filled violence. This idea that it is pure psychosis, and you get to see that, I thought was really, really illuminating. It's also Kelson not being a hero, exactly. I mean, he is compassionate, and he is trying to find a way through. He's also trying to survive, not for nothing. But, I mean, the heroic thing would be straight up to kill Jimmy and possibly the Jimmies.

1:40:14Yes. Actually, that would be what a hero, I think, would do. And that's not what he does, and that's not what the film's interested in. I thought that was really interesting as well. How would he do it? I mean, he's just one. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Could he have got his blow dart? Yeah, could he have dipped his blow dart in something else? Just standing in line. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about that. You're right. Why does he come up with his plan that he does, which is let's create this theatre of Satan, basically. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Thank God he knew all the words to Iron Maiden's number of the people.

1:40:48I feel like he'd been preparing for that gig his whole life. We need the montage of him just listening all day to Number of the Beast. I mean, he does have a finite number of vinyls there, and he's had 28 years with them. So he would probably be able to lip sync it for his life. He's lip syncing for his life. That's what Nilda Costa said. A lip sync for his life. I've just realized. That's amazing. And then he sashayed away. Oh, no. Sashayed away off this mortal coil. What if he'd done Ordinary World instead? Or How to Disappear Completely from Kid A? He made the right choice. He did make the right choice in the end.

1:41:28All right, we've got to go because the Oscar nominations are coming out in about 20 minutes. So we've got to run to do those. I want to talk very quickly about some things I've written down. Jimmy's death, any thoughts on that? You know, the poetic justice? I mean, for the best. Loved it. For the best. also Spike being the one to stab him I was like I'm sad that Spike's had to do more violence but he chose to go into this world at the end of the last movie he did it's like another stepping stone in his growing up in the world isn't it you know kind of the first one the big moment at the end is that he finally gets that headshot and kills the infected for the first time and at the end of this movie he kills another human being basically doesn't he well I guess he's done that at the beginning at the beginning as well yeah I can't stop thinking of this as like in a weird way almost like a bit of a pinocchio story of this kid sent off on the path and trying to like find a way to live in the world and not be pulled in different directions yeah um by all of these slightly malign influences and creating a sense of self i feel like that's his journey that's why i'm excited for him to meet jim as well because he saw how his dad lived he saw how his mom lived he saw how kelson lived how the jimmies live now he's going to pick stuff up from Jim and I do feel like a part of film three will surely have to be him returning home as a basically a new person who has experienced life and who has found these things that he's brought into himself.

1:42:55Because as you were saying no matter how good a soul Kelson is he was as you say cracked and there was an element of him that had gone bye bye bye bye reality bye bye sanity and Jim seems to be relatively normal which is a hell of an achievement in this world. Two very, very quick last things. These might be connected. In terms of Jimmy's death, I did expect, and again, this is a case of the film going left and you expect it to go right and Garland not giving you what people would expect. I thought that Samson was going to be the engine of destruction at the end. Maybe he was going to come in and a bit like Bub in Day of the Dead, you know, find his friend dead and then go on a rampage.

1:43:37Not that that's what really Bub does, but he kind of does in that movie. That doesn't happen. He does come in and Jimmy sees him as the devil, which is really, really nice. But Samson just kind of wanders off at the end. I guess that would have been a sort of step backwards for him, right? I mean, it would have been a return to that kind of more bestial, more ferocious state. So I think it's the right call. But you're right, it's non-obvious. And there's something delicious about the Jimmys or the remaining Jimmys being the ones who screw over Jimmy Crystal in the end. that his system that he's created that benefits him ultimately is turned against him.

1:44:17Yeah, killed by his own sort of religious followers essentially, right? Jimmy Inc. Kelly when Kelson is like when Jimmy's like who's going to nail me to the cross and Kelson's like they are and you see Jimmy Inc. just be like hell yeah. Yeah. Let me do it. What did you make very quickly of Kelson recognizing Spike's just recognizing Spike even though he has a mask on? did you bump up against that? I did a little bit, I'll be honest. I didn't, but I had heard that that was something for you, so I did talk about that a bit with Nia DaCosta. But I also think it's something where Kelsen is the guy who sees the humanity in people.

1:44:55I can see him, even on a metaphorical level, the Jimmies put on masks to do the terrible things that they do. They're almost like assuming these roles. And I can believe Kelsen is the person who sees through the mask and sees like, ah, I see the human beneath the mask, and that is Spike. Also, he's seen a limited number of people in the last few years. I feel like each one has made an impression on them. I'm also interested in how close he was to that family. They're within an hour or two's walk. They're a couple of miles away at most. So I kind of wonder if he had more of a support structure than we maybe realized.

1:45:31Or maybe they were fucking terrified of him too. Maybe they were like, stay away from that weirdo with the bones. I think he did very, very well at creating this myth around him. and Jamie knows who he is in the first movie, and it's like, do not go near him. He's a fucking lunatic. So maybe everyone thinks he kills him, including Infected, because Infected don't really tend to go near him either. How did they not hear the Iron Maiden and not flock towards that bone temple? Maybe they were, but they were just like rocking out to him. Maybe Iron Maiden is the key. Maybe they were a bit terrified of it as well.

1:46:05Well, you know, terrified of Bruce Dickinson. All right, we're going to wrap this up I have discovered that Radiohead were in America on October 26 and October 27 playing a Bridge School benefit concert I think that's the Neil Young Bridge School benefit concert in Mountain View California in 2002 28 days later it came out on November 1st 2002 that's not necessarily when the film takes place but I'm going to say that Radiohead were still in America when all the shit went down and they are still alive it's clearly a summer movie but okay sure fine it could be we don't know it's a summer movie he's walking around in a t-shirt for most of the movie yeah he's going brr he's not going brr you're going brr okay alright well anyway I've just saved radio ahead part three open it with a needle dropping on a record 15 steps starts to play all is right in the world love it Tom York shows up at the end of the next one with an axe and a chainsaw he goes come on let's fucking go anyway on that note that is it for our 28 years later The Bone Temple spoiler special I hope you guys enjoyed it thanks as ever for subscribing and supporting and all that remains now is to say goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning goodbye Mike Munzer goodbye I'm off to watch some Brooklyn Nine-Nine yay please fucking do so the next time I make a reference like that I don't just look over and see like an empty face blanks there just blanks there and you'll be thinking vindication vindication all these references will become clear to you very very soon and goodbye to Ben Travis goodbye and goodbye to Helen O 'Hara noise what was that?

1:47:54I was expecting a toodaloo I was going to do a toodaloo then I was trying to do something more Brooklyn oh that's what it was cool cool cool cool cool cool cool cool cool that risks being a bit more arrested development though so I was trying to go oh I see yeah I've made a huge mistake anyway sorry I meant community anyway oh you have made a huge mistake I have made a huge mistake oh my god alright thanks for listening see you next time bye bye