Avatar: Fire And Ash — Talkin' Tulkuns With Team Empire

15:21But I want to get back to, you were talking about the Amrita. No one mentions Unabtainium at any point in this film.

15:26Nick de Semlyen:Have they forgotten about that? Are they not coming for it anymore? Well, it's like Amrita's worth more, right? So why would you bother when it's worth, don't they say in The Way of Water? Yeah, it's worth more than the Unabtainium. I know, eyes on the prize. Yeah, but at the same time, diamonds are worth more than gold, but you still mine for both if you have the opportunity. And Unabtainium seems, ironically, a lot more attainable than Amrita. There's one poor RDA grunt who's like digging for unobtainium and everyone's gone. He's like, guys, where are you going? Hello.

15:55Chris Hewitt:They've all gone whaling. They're digging in the wrong place. Presumably, though, that the humans are just going for unobtainium in the places that aren't inhabited by the Na 'vi. I will say, sorry,

16:06Nick de Semlyen:just when we're talking about Amrita, we should take a whole hour on Amrita. So, in Way of Water, there's a line that Scoresby has about how this stuff will make you immortal. Yeah. Right? It stops aging. But we haven't learned any more about that. That's quite a big thing to drop. And it's like, is this stuff going back to Earth? Are people now immortal on Earth? It feels like that's a massive sci-fi. The Elon Musk types on Earth, I think, are not aging. That's kind of fascinating. But they haven't sort of come back to that. But I do think, and we talked about this briefly in the review, I think one of the reasons why it feels like this film doesn't really move much slash anything along, really.

16:42Oh, I think it moves. It moves a lot of character-wise. It character-wise, absolutely. From a plot point of view, you could, as you kind of alluded to, you could 100 % remove this film from existence and go straight from The Way of Water to the next Avatar and probably not lose anything because very little has changed. The board looks much the same at the end of this as it did at the end of The Way of Water. But I do think this is because this film started out as one film. Way of Water and Fonash were one film. I think ultimately that's the reason why. And if things or themes that were brought up in Way of Water don't feel like they've developed here, I think that's a result of that because this was originally one film and they picked some of the threads from that film and put it in the way of water and they put some of the threads in Fire and Ash but it just means some of the stuff that's developed in Fire and Ash doesn't continue

17:24Nick de Semlyen:into this one I'm still trying to get my head around all of this because it's like there is a lot of plot in this film I can't imagine what a single film with all of this stuff in could have been even if they'd cut a lot of it it's just so much at what point in that one film

17:38Chris Hewitt:would Veronga have turned up? Is there a sense with this film we'll get into Veronga in a second but is there a sense with this film that this could be the last Avatar film we are recording this we should say we're recording this right now is Wednesday 17th of December it's two days before the film is coming out in cinemas around the world or one day I think it's opening tomorrow in certain territories they're tracking it to in the States open to around what is it Nick about 110, 120 million at the moment as things stand

18:06Nick de Semlyen:none of the avatars have opened big though that's the thing none of the avatars it's because people go back four, five, six times precisely but will they go back this time are you doubting James Cameron

18:13Chris Hewitt:on the air I'm not doubting him I'm not doubting him but I don't think that this is going to do what Avatar Way of Water did, and that didn't do what Avatar did. And if it's the same drop-off, then this is going to come around the$1.5,$1.6 billion mark. Now, that's enough for me to greenlight an Avatar 4, but is it enough for Disney to greenlight an Avatar 4? So this could be the final Avatar, is what I'm saying. And to that end, did it need then to have a more monumental final battle and more of a note of potential finality about it? I don't think it's a lack of monumentality in the final battle.

18:47You know, it's a massive, massive fucking brawl. That shot of Jake and Natiri, you know, just striding in slow-mo towards camera with all the banshees behind them is fucking epic. There's one shot also of like just everybody in the air fucking going at each other, like just the maddest bit of Star Wars or World War II, pick your battle that you've ever fucking seen. It's unbelievable. It is off the scale in any other film we'd be like, oh my God, I've never seen anything like this.

19:22Chris Hewitt:In this film, it's just another shot. In this film, but like, it makes like Avengers Endgame look like they could have tried harder really. Hey, hey, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hey, hey. I'm not, like just in terms of... You take that back. You take that back right now. You know I love it. We need to talk about Tolkien. I just think, you know, I just think that the scale is there. The problem is, yes, it's not final because it's not designed to be. it's not you know they're not kicking they're not destroying the the human base and salting the ground on which they walked which they wouldn't do obviously that's very not a way they'd see the ground on which they walked wouldn't they but anyway you know what i'm saying um that's that's not here because the story isn't over i guess so it doesn't have that sense of finality but

20:01Nick de Semlyen:i don't know how it could there's something big that i was expecting to happen and didn't happen which is that i thought the ash clan and varong and quaritch were going to turn against the humans and they were going to become like a separate faction. Like a more extreme faction. Yeah, because Vorong has got like weapons and she's like now, like she's had a taste for it and she's like, we want more of this stuff. And so I thought there was going to be a big reversal, but that didn't happen. It's close though, I feel. Yeah, it's possible. Because like when Quaritch walks out in the war paint, at that point, and you see when Edie Falco just looks at him with absolute disgust.

20:32He has done exactly what Jake wanted him to do. He's gone native. Like he has become Na 'vi. He has opened his eyes. He has seen the world as a Na 'vi. he's just seen it as an Ash clan member not what Jake wanted him to

20:43Nick de Semlyen:that's exactly how Edie Falco looked at Tony Soprano when he ran into the fridge in the middle of the night in his dressing gown but yeah you're right it's not quite I thought they might come into the battle and then they were just fighting everyone and then you might have had some cool carnage because then they can take out the humans because there's a real nihilism to the man they give no fucks about anything well yeah because it's like you're arming these people and you're like giving them flamethrowers and like massive guns and it's like, that's not a good idea probably. They're basically a death cult.

21:12Yeah. Yeah, they're very much, I mean, to the point where they look a bit freaking Nosferatu, don't they? I mean, like, no disrespect, but they do. The ash all over them and the sort of scuttling about almost on all fours. A lot of skulls. A lot of skulls. A lot of drugs. And of course, they have kamikaze attacks, which is interesting because they are, we get into this a little bit in the interview that I did, because they're almost atheistic in that they've rejected Ewa, but they're very shamanistic and there is an almost religious fanaticism to them in that they are prepared to kill themselves to kill the enemy and it's just like but that could just be like rock and roll that Yurikai

21:50Nick de Semlyen:like Yurikai style on the Medusoid

21:53Chris Hewitt:that was very metal it was like it was like Morton Cho and his war boys witness us yeah that moment where the guy sets himself on fire and then launches himself at David Thewlis' massive balloon I was hoping he would yell,

22:07Nick de Semlyen:flame on!

22:09Chris Hewitt:They needed more fire-based one-liners. Yeah,

22:12Nick de Semlyen:the Ash clan and Varong are incredible. They don't really talk much do they apart? I mean, does anyone have a line in the Ash clan apart from Varong? Like, they seem very subservient. Well, when Quaritch goes off the phone they go, Quaritch, Quaritch, Quaritch. That's basically it. Yeah, I think there's some reporting back to her but that's why they...

22:28Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I don't know that anyone has a line that stands out. They hiss a lot and growl. They're very feral. There's so much I want to talk about. I want to talk about I'm going to talk about in two seconds I want to talk about Quaritch tripping major ball sacks I want to talk about I want to talk about I want to talk about Quaritch a lot because I think Quaritch is the MVP of this franchise he's looking for love in all the wrong places he really is and he's found him oh boy has he found him yes hot navi fucking yeah I mean I think that's acceptable in a 12 I think that's okay we could have seen that from every conceivable angle in 3D absolutely things flying at your face oh my god is it a Leonoptrix no that is the way the way of something else.

23:07Chris Hewitt:I want to talk about that in a second.

23:11Chris Hewitt:Although maybe we're talking about it now. Edie Falco. Yes. Right? Okay. Does she die in the final battle? No. She's on the ship. She abandoned the ship. She gives the order to abandon the ship

23:21Nick de Semlyen:and then she fucks off. Why was she there? Why was she there? She wasn't there last in the end of the way of water. Yeah, it's like, hasn't she got better stuff to do? Let her go away a whaling expedition.

23:31Chris Hewitt:I think she dies because she's on the ship. No, there is There is someone on the ship. So I looked at that. So there is one person on the brig who is wearing the same kind of hat as her at the end. I don't think it was her day.

23:45Nick de Semlyen:If they gave Scoresby a big death scene, they're going to give... Or did they? Aardman? Aardman. Aardvark.

23:55Chris Hewitt:Oh, cracking final battle, Grommy.

23:57Nick de Semlyen:Aardmore, I believe. General Aardman. It's just like...

24:01Chris Hewitt:Izzy Falco is General Aardman. It's just a little claymation character.

24:05Nick de Semlyen:That would be amazing.

24:06Chris Hewitt:I think it's her. I think it's her. No, no.

24:08Nick de Semlyen:No way.

24:09Chris Hewitt:I think she's...

24:10Nick de Semlyen:Don't ask her because didn't she forget she made this film? She has no idea.

24:14Chris Hewitt:Yeah. I don't think so. Okay, okay. I'm intrigued. We'll talk about Farang and Quarage fucking in a second. But you seem to imply there that Scoresby is not dead. All I'm saying is... What? This is one of the things we got into in the interview with... Don't give away too much. This is the Sporting Special for your Sporting Special. To be fair, they in no way, no way hinted that he might have survived. So this is entirely me. All I'm saying is he's been eaten by a Tolkien before and lived to tell the tale. We've had an Abrahamic image. Maybe this Jonah and the whale. Maybe he's living in the whale's stomach.

24:46Who knows? All I'm saying is Mick Scoresby was a bit of a fan favorite in The Way of Water. And that's one of the reasons why he has a larger presence here. So, oh, no, wait. I was going to say. But then people will see him in this film and, oh, no, he definitely won't be back.

24:59Chris Hewitt:Because he's not very good in this film. This is a rollercoaster ride. He's not very good in this film. And this thing, he's a crowd-pleaser with great one-liners in the previous film. In this one, he's a bit of a cardboard cutout. I was disappointed by the Scoresby action, it has to be said. But he was a terrible person in the last one. Oh, yeah. You know that, right? Terrible person is fine, but as long as you're funny. Okay. So do we think this is the final Scoresby? Who knows? I will say, I did think, so we see him, like, held in a toucan, toucan? Tolkien. Tolkien. A toucan would be a very...

25:28Jesus, Helen, it's Tolkien. I'm very tired. So we see him held in a Tolkien mouth, and then the Tolkien swims down into the depths. Deep, deep, deep. That's Pyokan, right?

25:40Chris Hewitt:Isn't it Pyokan? No, it's the other one. It's the Pyokan's friend. The matriarch. No, no, no.

25:45Nick de Semlyen:Pyokan's friend. Pyokan's blind friend. Oh, the blind friend. The one who hasn't got eyes. I will be so happy if every film, Scoresby comes back with a different robotic limb. It's just like some Monty Python sketch. I thought for a moment. He comes back and he's got two robot legs. Because he's caught halfway, and I thought for a moment he was just going to be bitten in half and then he'd be back next time with robot legs and I genuinely wondered about that for a second the first time I saw it but you don't see him physically die no you don't you don't see the coup de grace I thought he was dead did you?

26:14Nick de Semlyen:yeah I assumed he was dead

26:16Chris Hewitt:he's dead as a doornail yeah because the film didn't really focus on him

26:20Nick de Semlyen:all that much I wanted more Scoresby if anything because I love

26:23Chris Hewitt:there's quite a lot of Scoresby in it he doesn't get anything memorable to do he's awful no he doesn't really

26:27Nick de Semlyen:Brendan Cowell's the name of the actor. And that character, James Cameron, I didn't run it anywhere, but James Cameron told me that character is based on an Australian scuba instructor that he knows. Who went to the same way. A lot of those ones, yeah, who hates whales. And yeah, he just had so much zest and so much sort of pantomime, sort of villainy in Way of Water. And I just thought his screen time, it was a bit sort of brusque. Maybe some of his stuff got cut. Yeah. I mean, look, he could come back, but I'm going to ask you. How? Did any of you, do any of you, for one second believe that Quaritch is dead?

27:01No, not for a second. No.

27:02Chris Hewitt:Largely because Stephen Lang has been talking very loudly in interviews, including on this podcast, about how he's back in Avatar 4 and 5. He apparently has read the script for Avatar 4 and 5. If you don't see a body, then he's definitely not dead. Definitely true. If you don't see a body. Which means Scoresby's alive and well. Well, there at least there's room to believe he might be dead. Yes, on account of being bitten in twain by... But he hasn't been like... But he will be. They don't have teeth. Like he's being dragged under to be like, you know, drowned.

27:31Nick de Semlyen:He's fine, he's fine. But all he needs to do

27:33Chris Hewitt:is roll a couple of times, back broken, job done.

27:36Nick de Semlyen:That's what I would do. What would be fun if they think he's dead and they download his consciousness into a third Quaritch body. Yeah, and then another Quaritch turns up in the next film and then he goes, no, I'm still alive. And then it's like, you know, a bit Mickey 17. I mean, Quaritch or Quaritch? Quaritch we're talking about. Okay, Quaritch.

27:53Chris Hewitt:Okay. I believe we were talking Scorsby. We were talking Scorsby. Well, I'm talking, as always. You're talking Quarage. And look, that's a good place to be. I think we should all talk Quarage all the time since he is the MVP and, in fact, the true hero of Avatar Far and Ash. But he does have a really interesting arc. Yeah, his scenes are the best and he has the most interesting story in this film. I also particularly love his relationship with Jake. My Jake! I really do. Yes. I think that they kind of recognize and to some degree respect each other as men, as warriors, as Marines, I guess, and also fucking hate each other.

28:33And yet, you know, Jake's convinced he can win Quaritch over and Quaritch is convinced he can capture Jake and maybe even turn him around. I don't know. But I just love that kind of battle between them. I just find it really, really interesting.

28:47Nick de Semlyen:yeah they're like Quaritch is the dark mirror version of Jake and there's even that line from the original film where Quaritch says to Jake you know you find yourself some local tale and you forgot what team you're playing for and that's exactly what happens to him in this film so he's kind of following I could have done more of that to be honest I've had more Quaritch kind of doing a darker version of what Jake has been through and both of them fathers and both of them fighting for their sons in this movie exactly that he's the same son he is the same son yeah I love the scenes between them I love the But I love the, well, this is awkward, you know, the banter between them and the fact that I always thought it was interesting, Jake always calls him Colonel, never Quaritch.

29:24Nick de Semlyen:Because there is respect there. And I don't think, you know, at the end, Quaritch, I don't even think he dislikes Jake. I think he's actually warmed to him quite a bit. But ultimately, I think he's got a mission. He's a binary character. And I think for him, betrayal of the chain of command is unforgivable. And he just can't get past that.

29:42Chris Hewitt:Lang Slang said something really interesting. I did a Q &A for this film. And he said something really interesting, which I'm sure he said to you guys as well, but that Quaritch is a man for whom the world is right angles and straight lines. And now he's met Farong. Farong is all spirals and circles. And it's, apart from tripping major ball sacks, but they're in her tent, it has really altered him in some way. And so I'd love to see where he goes in the next one, apart from, you know, into a fiery ball. Yeah, I also feel like there's a lot of, complication for the character and it's kind of building up and building up.

30:20So the fact is he is dead. As several people point out to him, he is not literally Quaritch. And I think Jake is literally Jake in a truer sense. Quaritch is a recombinant? Yes.

30:34Chris Hewitt:Recombinant, isn't it? Recombinant. Recombinant. And so he was literally a dead man's memories plugged into an Avatar body, but he doesn't have that spark of life in him. there has been a break there. There has been a fun, like he did fundamentally die. And so he considers himself Spider's father, but literally technically maybe isn't. And it is a really interesting position that he's put in. And I love that people were reminding him of that and throwing that in his face. I find it really interesting that, you know, as soon as he's out in the bush and he, you know, becomes aware that Spider is a factor, the mission's off.

31:13and you've got his own guy reminding him, hello, we have something to do here. Yes, like that guy. His original focus on the mission has been fundamentally and forever compromised by Spider's presence.

31:28Chris Hewitt:Almost like he's doing everything for Spider and because of Spider. And that even before we get to Varang and even before we get to that complicating factor. It blows my mind that there are people out there, professional film journalists who have given this film one star. It blows my fucking mind. Do you have eyes in your head, first of all? But yes. You have eyes. Just open them. Open them, yes. Yes, the film does tread the way of water a little bit. But I don't know how anyone can look at that bit where in the final battle in that Flux Devil, is that what it's called? Flux Devil, yeah. The Flux Devil thing where it's kind of like, it's not quite zero grab, but it's not far off.

32:07Chris Hewitt:And it's a big magnetic field and it's a big Quarren's Jake spider. Well, certainly big Quarren's Jake showdown. And they're bouncing from rock to rock. and then Spider starts to slide off the rock, and then Quaritch goes for him, and then suddenly you have Jake holding onto Quaritch, he's holding onto Spider. And I'm sorry, in that moment, as much as I can't remember every single character name, I was like, holy fucking shit. I was shitting myself with my mouth wide open. That was incredible, and such a great character, because I genuinely did not know what Quaritch was going to do in that point.

32:37Chris Hewitt:The moment, the scene that you were talking about earlier on, we're meant to pretend, we're meant to believe that Jake is going to kill Spider. I believed it. I genuinely believe it. That's going to be a second because I am fascinated by it because I didn't believe it

32:48Nick de Semlyen:for a second.

32:49Chris Hewitt:It's a Disney family film.

32:51Nick de Semlyen:Because Jake,

32:51Chris Hewitt:yes, exactly what he said, but also Jake is, you know, he is straight lines and right angles but he's absolutely

32:57Nick de Semlyen:straight down the middle.

32:59Chris Hewitt:I didn't believe it for a second. We'll get to it in a second but Quaritch is completely unpredictable. I have no idea what he, and I could see a world in which he went, you know what, kid, you're way more trouble than you're worth and then dropped him. Because he turns on a dime, doesn't he? so he saves I love that moment where he saves Spider from Varong and then in a second he's properly like how you doing like you know he's flirting with her with the assault rifle like it's incredibly sexual and you're like she had your son a second ago but he can turn turn it on turn it off like he pivots he's really unpredictable he's incredibly fickle he's a great character yeah he's brilliant he's a great character but yeah you could see him doing full kind of scar in the Lion King right in that final scene and sort of you know getting the claws into whoever pulled him up.

33:45Nick de Semlyen:Someone pointed out the scene where Korich is teaching Varong to use the gun as very aliens. Yes. Michael Biehn and Sigourney Weaver. And there's another great aliens, we were talking about this yesterday, there's a great little aliens nod where Kiri, Sigourney Weaver's character, calls someone a bitch. Basically says get away from her, you bitch, in different words. But yeah, it's amazing. It's the same actor but in a completely different dynamic. Instead of the mother figure saving the child, it's the other way around. The child saving the mother. I love that. I love that they didn't use the line.

34:14I think that was really important. I just wanted the word bitch, and that was perfect.

34:18Chris Hewitt:You mean the great line from Alien Romulus? Yes, that's the one. Yeah, we don't want to rip that line off. No, exactly. We wouldn't want to do that. Of course not. But I thought that was just enough for me. That was really smart. All right, okay. So, was anyone else transfixed by that moment, both Spider and Quaritch and Jake as I was? Yes, it's fantastic. And the bit when he's like, pull me up, and he's like, I would if you hadn't shot me in the arm, you little shit. And he's like, I should just drop you. He goes, dad it's so good he's like you're quite a piece of work and he's like pull us up Christ but it's again he and Jake they have that you know it's kind of like oh fucking hell kids right

34:53Nick de Semlyen:it's brilliant

34:54Chris Hewitt:and they're together in that moment and there's such mutual respect between the two of them can you see a path should there be an avatar for and people who've talked about it says it's going to be very weird and very different from these last two movies yeah big time jump I believe as well but can you see a world in which they go full fast and furious and Quarage becomes a good guy? Or do you think there's always going to be that layer of malevolence to him? I think he's always going to be a wild card. He's always going to be unpredictable. But I do see a world in which he is less and less RDA and more and more Manquan.

35:26Whether that's good or ill. Maybe you can have an uneasy alliance between the Metkaina, the Omotakaya, and the Manquan, potentially against the RDA. That's amazing. That's a possibility. But I feel at this point Kwarich's time with the humans might be coming to or have come to an end. Yeah, I do see that path. I think that's very plausible that they become the hard line of Navi resistance and Jake, by default, becomes a slightly more conciliatory. Yeah, and it's hard to see what that would look like right now, but it's possible. I mean, we only really need Earth to find some other fucking planet and fuck off there, don't we?

36:08Really?

36:09Chris Hewitt:You can't find Unobtainium and Amarina? Amarita. Amarita.

36:14Nick de Semlyen:Named after a flower. Way on Luke's aid. Yes. Anywhere else? Does anyone else think this whole saga is going to end with them terraforming Earth? What, and turning it into Pandora 2? I don't know, just that title, The Seed Bearer, whether that ends up being a title or not. I don't know. There's something about it. Taking a seed of A-word to Earth? Yeah, I don't know. I'm intrigued. I really hope they get to me.

36:35Chris Hewitt:I'd like to see Earth. I'd like to see what Earth is like. You see it in the extended cut of the first film. You get about 10 minutes on Earth,

36:41Nick de Semlyen:and it's very sort of Blade Runner. Yeah, it's worth watching for that. I haven't seen that bit. It's pretty cool.

36:46Chris Hewitt:There's a couple of things about Quaritch as well. You can kind of see Jake challenges him. He says, open your eyes. And the bit where he comes in with full Navi war paint is really interesting. You would imagine that for a man like Quaritch, towering over these tiny people. I know Edie Falco is not hugely tall in real life, I'm guessing, but there's moments where he comes in and he's just, he's what, nine, ten feet tall? He seems even bigger than most Na 'vi and he's just fucking massive. You can imagine that would kill. The avatars have more muscle than Na 'vi do. I think that's a really, I just love the way they differentiate them.

37:26I think it's so clever. It's really subtle, but it's definitely there.

37:29Chris Hewitt:And there's also a, the film sets up a little bit of an interesting path ahead, I think, because it shows, for Nateri, a way out of hate, right? So Jake has a line to her and says, baby, you've got to stop living like this. You can't stop, you can't keep living in hate. Yeah. And she finds at the end with... Which is interesting because, I'm sorry, he has been the one who has been like diving for guns at that point. Practicality. Take the boy out of the Marine Corps. She's saying her prayers every night and he's diving for guns. I'm not sure who's living in hate. I think he's talking to himself.

38:06She has gone full forage, though, to be fair.

38:09Nick de Semlyen:Yeah, I really like that scene where they're talking and she kind of looks like a wet cat. There's a really unique sort of way that they do her face in that scene. Yeah, it's all like watered-down makeup. Yeah, and he's like sealed off his emotions, so he's like now back to being, he calls himself like a marine, essentially, and he's like back to being that mentality.

38:29Chris Hewitt:And she is, yeah, feeling the emotions. But the moment I'm talking about is a moment at the end where she essentially, I think, lets go of that hate and finds a little bit of, not forgiveness of the pink skins, obviously, but she finds a little bit of compassion in her heart when Renal dies.

38:47Nick de Semlyen:That's one of my favorite scenes in the film. Like, what a cool, sorry to interrupt, what a cool, like, birth and death scene simultaneously. It's, like, that's such a great moment. And it's easy to forget scenes from this because there's so much going on. Because it's a sensory overload, isn't it? Yeah, she's a great character. They're sort of slight snipping at each other. The whole way. I mean, going back to the last film has been just great. That's a great arc. Really meaty, yeah. When she says, I will not challenge my husband in front of that woman. She really doesn't like that.

39:19Chris Hewitt:That fucking slut. I'm not doing that. No, thank you. Yeah, but that moment where she takes over the guardianship I guess, of Renal's baby. Where's Tanawari in all this? Like, kid has a father. Absinthe dad. He's fighting. He's riding a giant fish. I'm just saying. He's like, you will protect him. Like, he has another parent. You do see him with the baby. You do. And the other older brothers and sisters in the final scene.

39:50Nick de Semlyen:He's got a giant fish to ride. Speaking of which, I really hope Korich gets some kind of evil squid. I hope he rides one of the squids in the next film. Can we talk about the nightmarish Lovecraftian squids that get unleashed? Oh, damn. I very much enjoyed seeing those things just splatting humans with their gross tentacles. They were fun. They are cool, aren't they? They're very sort of like, you know, 20 ,000 leagues under the sea. And I love that Kiri talks to them with kind of like flashing lights. Like she uses her kind of, the pigmentation of her body to talk to them rather than actually trying to, she doesn't go, you squid attack!

40:22There's none of that. Again, that would be a terrible idea. I did have a worry about that because she goes, the pink skins kill them all. and I'm like spiders right next to you

40:34Nick de Semlyen:apart from the monkey boy

40:35Chris Hewitt:yeah apart from him no wait too late he's been pulled down and do not kill Parker Selfridge do not touch a fucking hair

40:42Nick de Semlyen:that's my big question about Avatar 4 are we going to get to meet Parker Selfridge's dad the chairman I think we must and will it be Arnie I just want Arnie to turn up in one of the Avatar films and it's got to be Parker Selfridge's dad he tells us I know two guys messing around on this planet I come to sort things out do you think that Giovanni Ribisi would convince Arnold Schwarzenegger's son?

41:04Chris Hewitt:I think he would. Patrick Schwarzenegger is Arnold Schwarzenegger's son. He convinces. So I think that would work. Is that how... Yeah, of course. You look at Giovanni Ribisi and you think he looks like Patrick Schwarzenegger. Yes. I think, yeah, Frank Jr. Jr. I think that absolutely... Yeah, that would work for me. I think they're going to bring in

41:21Nick de Semlyen:a big character, a big military character to join the RDA. And yeah, it's got to be Arnie. That's my theory.

41:27Chris Hewitt:He's not military though, is he? Parker Selfridge is a company man he's a pencil pusher so his dad's just going to be like head of the board well I mean we think there's a new opening for a new you know HOD there as well with the military side of things as well right so

41:43Nick de Semlyen:is Michelle Yeoh we know who Michelle Yeoh is going to be playing oh that's a good point they announced her casting about five years ago and she hasn't yet appeared in one but she's filmed something I believe has she believe so oh wow believe so so you think she's Giovanni Ribisi's dad it's a stretch I mean she could

42:01Chris Hewitt:100 % do it but anyway maybe Giovanni Rubisi could play his own dad do you think his dad is also going to be named after a pen company because he's Parker Selfridge which is you can buy Parker's in Selfridge Schaefer Harrods yes he should be he should be named after something you can buy in the place where you can buy it and he wouldn't be Schaefer Harrods he'd be also called Selfridge wouldn't he he'd be Bic W.H. Smith

42:25Nick de Semlyen:Hamper Selfridges Christmas Amber Selfridge Lava Lamp Argos Yeah Yeah We haven't even talked about Ian Garvin Oh Ian What happened to Ian? Did they catch him? No I think he's fine He's still at Lodge

42:42Chris Hewitt:He's at Lodge There are two characters in this movie Three If you don't believe as I did I'm going to see the movie again that it is Edie Falco we see on the on the ship before it blows up but there are two characters in this film who kind of just disappear from the film. One is Jermaine Clement who runs off presumably to write some sort of comedy song about what he's just done because he sees that massive bulldozer and helped not free Jake Soley. That's good. Eagle versus Tolkien.

43:17Chris Hewitt:And then there's Farang who just kind of fucks off.

43:21Nick de Semlyen:She slinks off doesn't she at that point. I like the fact that she plays that sort of Kuru version of mercy with people imposing her will on them and then Kerry kicks her ass as she just legs it. I thought she was going to die in this film. I've got to say, I was surprised and I guess it makes sense if they're thinking of ongoing sagas and how important a character she is but I felt like the film needed a big villain death and Scoresby wasn't quite it for me. It was like, because I think if E.D. Falco, Ardmore had died there 100%. I mean, remember in Titanic when the captain dies, he gets a whole big moment.

43:53Nick de Semlyen:He would not have a character to that, that insignificant would not just die off screen. I don't know if she's significant. She is significant. I don't know if she is. She gets a whole big intro scene in Way of Water. She's very significant. I'm saying if you cast Elie Falco in your film and she dies, you get to see her die. No, she's head of, she's the face of like the human military. She's the new Quaritch. That's what she is, She's the new Quaritch. So she's definitely not going to die off screen. But Varong, I was surprised and I don't know how I feel because I enjoyed the character and I'd like to see more, but I also felt like it needed some closure of some kind.

44:24I think that's fair. I think it's probably quite in her character to fuck off as soon as she's beaten. Like, she's, Terry Pratchett would say she's like a cat. Cats don't fight to the death, they fight to the win. And it's far better to have a humiliated but surviving enemy than to have a dead enemy because they know you beat them and that's far better.

44:44Chris Hewitt:Yeah, but then they can fester and thoughts of revenge can radicalize others. Well, yes, I think that's exactly what she'll do, and I think that will be quite an interesting thing to play. But yeah, her imposing her will on other people was really very creepy and, you know, sort of body autonomy troubling. What's going on there? Well, how could she do that with her Kuru? How could she impose her will upon other people?

45:11Nick de Semlyen:She does some kind of dark magic, right? That's implied. She's kind of controlling fire with her hands. I think the implication is she's some kind of dark shaman who has... I think the fire thing is, she uses a substance. I think it's gels. She's using drugs and substances. Like Paul Daniels or something. Yeah, basically that. I don't think it's magic. I think she's, basically they've come to the point where in this nihilistic world, their civilization or their culture, their tribe was essentially wiped out by fire and they have turned to fire as their new goal. And so, and I think it's just like, it's just like, it's like flammable gel she's using.

45:40No, she's using, yeah. I think it's magic. I think it's all substances and she uses drugs and whatnot. And I think that's... Right, yeah. Okay, yeah. All right, well. But the imposing her will. Yeah, that's horrible. Yeah, that's really horrible. And I think that is a character thing that she can do. And she can dominate people. Now, the question I had, have we seen Navi combine Cruz before? Like, for example, when Jake and Natiri are having the sex, do they also do that? I believe so. Yeah. In the first film, I'm pretty sure. I couldn't remember if they, you know. But that's her sharing. I think what she is doing is transgressing.

46:14No, but I think she is transgressing a fundamental boundary of Navi culture. Yes. When I say that she's able to do that, it's something that other Navi would not do. It is not done. Yeah, it's definitely a non - There's a consent thing. It's a Kuru no-no. Yeah, it's nasty. And I like that Kiri uses it against her. But when she uses it on Quaritch, when she casually hooks her to his and then overpowers him, I thought that was an interesting thing. Yeah, that was very cool. And just made her seem like a force to be reckoned with, even though he's like ten times bigger than him. And she recognized that because she said, oh, you're strong because I think she finds it difficult to subdue him.

46:49Chris Hewitt:Okay, there's so much to talk about. There's so many other things I want to talk about. A couple of people die in this. Rinal dies. One of their kids whose names I'm sure James knows dies as well. Which is actually not one of their kids. It's their son's friend. Oh, their son's friend. Oh, that's fine.

47:04Nick de Semlyen:Scorsaby dies. I think we should respect the character by reading his name and I can't pronounce it. Oh, Rotkrol. It's R-O-T-X-O. Roto. Roto. Okay.

47:14Chris Hewitt:Roto. With a rolled R. Did you think that any major characters were going to die? And by that, I mean Jake, I mean Nateri. Quaritch kind of dies, but we don't know what happens to him. Does Paylack die? Does David Fulis' character die? No, I don't think so, because he's apparently signed up to four and five. Yeah. Yeah. But I refer you to my earlier use of the word major character. Paylack is as major as they... Have you seen his coat? His coat is cool. His coat is incredible. Incredible coat. Did you think that he was going to kill either Jake or Natiri? I did think there were some discussions about whether Natiri would die in advance.

47:52And I think that's partly because, you know, she was underused, frankly, in way of water. And you had to wonder, does he not know what he wants to do with her anymore? And partly because, you know, we saw so many scenes of her grieving. It seemed like they might be setting up, you know, that she kind of goes completely. kind of off her rocker basically and just essentially throws herself into a battle she knows she can't win in a state of extreme grief. It seemed possible. I didn't ever think it was likely because I felt like there's a lot more to do with that character and I would like to see them do it.

48:25And I like that we're seeing her kind of develop as a leader. You know, we're seeing her develop more towards being the kind of clan leader that she was meant to be, that her mother was and is, I guess. and you know she comes through that grief and she does kind of move forward from it so it feels like she's in a healthier place definitely at the end of this film than she was at the end of the last

48:49Chris Hewitt:I didn't think she was on the chopping board I was really taken by the fact that she was shot with an arrow in that early scene and I thought that might have been a little bit of a fake out but you're absolutely right I love the fact that she has much more agency in this it's she who rescues Jake from the RDA compound not the other way around which I really really liked why does she wake up wrong? that seemed like a tactical mistake that I don't know

49:13Nick de Semlyen:was it to get information? yeah because she asks her where Jake is I feel like he wasn't hiding he's in the middle of the square on display she didn't look very hard yeah I was like I guess it kind of fits her character right? because she's not one to sneak she likes to confront stuff and you know then you know just go all in but I was thinking don't wake her up what are you doing? yeah

49:34Chris Hewitt:especially since I guess you didn't know Quaritch was around at that point either but the one character I thought was genuinely in jeopardy was Jake because the film was narrated by Loak

49:46Nick de Semlyen:and I thought

49:47Chris Hewitt:okay so Jake might not be around to give us a voiceover something

49:52Nick de Semlyen:that's what I thought for that reason as well Cameron has said that each film is going to have a different narrator going forward like Joe Pesci I like that but I think and this is kind of going back to the the sacrifice scene that we talked about. Jake is a dickhead in this film, and they take pains to show that he's incredibly hard on Loak, and he's quite hard-edged, he's quite thorny, and he becomes less sympathetic in this film. I think one of the reasons they do that is so when the sacrifice scene comes, you think, he might actually do it. Like, he's enough of a dick that he genuinely might.

50:25And I didn't think he would in that scene, and I didn't think he would, and I didn't think he would, and then the camera pans away, and you think, well, if this was going to happen, it would definitely happen off-screen. and then when he goes down with a knife, there's a very ambiguous sound effect. It's not ambiguous. It is 100 % meant to make you think that he stabbed him. I, at that point, was like, he's dead. That's it. He's done it. And I was properly like jaw on the floor. I can't believe they did that. Did I, in the back of my mind, think AWOL will probably bring him back from the dead?

50:51Probably. But I genuinely thought he had gone there and he had done it.

50:55Chris Hewitt:Wow. Yeah. Ben, who, Ben Travis Acampi here, he also wrote the review of this, thought the same thing. We had that discussion afterwards. there wasn't a single ounce of it there's no way that would make sense in Breaking Bad yeah because it can you can't come back from that as the hero of this story and he is still I thought it might have been a destructive art where he's done that and eventually he dies in this film he would have to die if he did that there's no question but I think he would have to do that for a much greater cause and it wasn't there and also if he were going to do that at the time would have been kind of immediately because he's already let the friendly scientists study Spider.

51:40They probably have enough just from that to replicate theoretically what had been done.

51:46Nick de Semlyen:But Norm would never do that. Norm wouldn't, but like, how secure is high camp? They don't fucking know. If that place was raided and the computers were handed over to the RDA, it's all over anyway. I just like I feel like it didn't make sense as a premeditated thing if he'd sort of done it in the moment after you know if they had walked back into camp if there hadn't been the whole big you know escape thing to get through if they'd walked back into camp and met Jake and he'd suddenly realized this was happening and he'd done it in the moment that could have that could have kind of worked it still had the sacrifice thing still had the element of oh god I've got to do this for the greater good

52:25Chris Hewitt:the greater good but it wouldn't have it wouldn't have been you know completely out of left field but to do it in a sort of premeditated way after having studied it after having had that whole build up didn't make any sense to me and I didn't feel like it was ever going to happen because no Terry's right there from the get go she's like kill this motherfucker like she's like she's 100 % there also she's gone a bit racist so that's there were two things I thought would be different in that scene the thing I thought would be different is I thought one of the awa you know

52:52Nick de Semlyen:those little fluffy things was going to come down and land on his knife. That I 100 % thought was going to happen. The second thing I thought was going to happen was that Jake would actually say the word sorry to Spider, which he singularly failed to do. And I thought that was a bad choice. I thought that was a bad choice. But it's interesting you talk about this and like the motivation and what you thought would happen. And, you know, part of you is thinking about, you know, screen craft and how people construct a narrative and things like that. It's a very, you know, film critical way of looking at it.

53:22And what I find really interesting is that all of that part of my brain was suppressed for the entirety of this film to the point where I had no critical faculties whatsoever. Now, you might argue that that's how I approach a lot of films. However, there's something so immersive about this that I genuinely don't think my brain functioned in that way. There was no moment where I was James sitting in a cinema watching a film. I was in Pandora. I was with these characters. So I didn't really think about it that way while I was watching it because it's such an experiential thing. Were you like the people whenever the train came out of the screen?

53:53Chris Hewitt:I'd be like, oh my God, we're going to die. Yeah, like I genuinely, I was 100 % on Pandora. I was there. There's a real train coming for us. Oh my God, run. Genuinely, like these films, I find them so transportational. It's quite extraordinary. To the extent that, to the extent that, and this is a genuine criticism, probably my biggest criticism of this entire film. Not long enough. Partly that I was genuinely disappointed when it ended. but when you get to the end of this film the decompression when you go from being in Pandora to being in reality to sitting in the eye to being on the list

54:31Nick de Semlyen:is jarring right yeah that's a jarring moment because you're coming out of that world it is not helped by Miley fucking Cyrus I like that song I like that song I was listening to it last night it's a good song the placement of the song is the problem because tonally it is so jarring to go from the end of the film to listening to that ridiculous ballad people said the same thing about Celine Dion probably. But I don't know, I think that's slightly different with this. I think what you needed was something kind of thematic and score-based, not scores-based, score-based that made you kind of feel like you were still gradually in the film so you could extract yourself.

55:04I like it. I hated it.

55:06Nick de Semlyen:Not the song, the placement. It's like Lord of the Rings when they had a different song each time. Not the Ed Sheeran one from The Hobbit, which we're not going to talk about.

55:13Chris Hewitt:But again,

55:14Nick de Semlyen:it felt kind of in-universe. This really doesn't. There's a bitter kind of tone to the film, isn't there? And it's, yeah, it does leave you with a different feeling to one and two that you kind of came out and you've been in this very pleasant kind of dream world and this one does have a much sourer kind of vibe apart from the Wind Trader sequence I mean I loved it it felt to me like there's a lot of western riffing in these films and the Wind Trader sequence felt like a good old stagecoach you know where they were like the outriders and they've got to get the stagecoach exactly and it was very like classical western thing I just loved the music the shots of them moving through the sky.

55:50Nick de Semlyen:There's a sense of wonder there

55:51Chris Hewitt:that is perhaps lacking from other parts of the movie because it's places we've seen and things we've done. It's also something that has been in James Cameron's head since the 70s. Like if you look back at his concept art for Xenogenesis in what was it, 77 or 78, he had drawn essentially exactly that, these giant jellyfish sailing through the air, you know, feeding presumably on birds or whatever as they go. But it's literally taken him this long to get it to the screen in the way that he saw it in his head.

56:22Nick de Semlyen:It's a mad thing. The giant jellyfish being pulled along by alien stingrays. And I felt really sorry for those jellyfish when he gets exploded. That's such a spectacular scene when it's got the gas in it and it blows up and you're just like, that's a living creature. And it's really horrific to think about. It's really upsetting. But it's such a mad... Who else would do that in the middle of a film and have that just as a throwaway 10-minute sequence? It's amazing. But again, it's proper like big ideas big mad crazy beautiful looking ideas sci-fi that James Cameron is the only one who seems to be interested in doing right now there's him

56:57Chris Hewitt:and there's Peyton Reed with Quantumania

56:59Nick de Semlyen:and those are the only people while we're talking about mad sci-fi ideas something popped into my head I want to run it by you guys do you think at any point in the Avatar series we are going to see a Na 'vi transfer their consciousness into a human body consciousness oh oh that's a good question go the other way around no that'd be interesting if they're coming to Earth you don't think we'll see Nateri. I think it would be a little bit trite. I'm not sure that inversion would work for me. I think the closest thing you've got is Spider because obviously he's now essentially like a hybrid. He has a Kuru.

57:31He's almost an RV at this point. So I think you've got that where a human becomes a Navi. A Humvee. I'm only borrowing your Humvee.

57:41Nick de Semlyen:He's a Prius. He's a hybrid. Oh God. I don't know. I can't think of any plot reason why it would happen, but it's quite a fun thing to think about.

57:52Chris Hewitt:Well, presumably to breathe oxygen.

57:54Nick de Semlyen:Yeah. Right? Weird would that be if Nateri like transfers into Zoe Saldana's actual form at the end of these movies. I don't know. I mean, I think it would be a come down from being a Navi to just walk around. But Spider, interestingly, so when Quaritch is in an oxygen environment, he has to keep puffing on that little mask of Pandora. Spider doesn't need to do that. No, Spider doesn't seem to be... He can breathe anything. Yeah, that's interesting. Absolutely anything at all.

58:17Chris Hewitt:Yeah. he'll have anything he'll have anything kids today eh we're gonna lose Nick in 10 minutes Nick you have 10 minutes to say everything you wanted to say about this movie you brought up Ian Garvin you can finish him yay Ian Garvin

58:30Nick de Semlyen:legend hero bulldozer driver Concord yeah sort of in a weird way for all the crazy sci-fi stuff the most unbelievable thing in these films is Jermaine Clement's American accent it's good

58:45Chris Hewitt:it's a good accent I love Jermaine Clement but like why doesn't he just do his normal accent? I guess because, I don't know. I don't know.

58:51Nick de Semlyen:I mean, it's like, because, you know, you've got Scoresby, being all Australian. I don't know. Anyway, and Ian is quite a Kiwi name. But I really love having...

58:59Chris Hewitt:Yes, no Americans have ever been called Ian. It doesn't happen.

59:02Nick de Semlyen:It's never happened. It's a specifically New Zealand name. Can't think of a single one now. Traditional. The closest I've got is I-N-Z-E-R-ing, and that's not even pronounced the same way. There we go. No American has ever been called Ian. So the plot thickens. But, yeah, like I said, I love that whole sequence with Jake in the orange prison jumpsuit. Did they have that specially made? Did they have Navi-sized jumpsuits just lying around? It was a bit Con Air, wasn't it? It was like Navi Con Air. Why are you in a jumpsuit? I want to see Navi, John Malkovich turn up. But yeah, I just found that really entertaining, that whole stretch of the film.

59:40Nick de Semlyen:And then, you know, Ian Garvin, he's been put on mute at the beginning of the film. He's pissed off about it. that's the final straw did you guys catch that line it's got a bit of quiet line about and yeah what's that line am I on mute he goes am I on mute he's on the sorry am I on mute because he's on the he's doing I did it as actual Jermaine Clement then I did it as avatar Jermaine Clement okay and he gets put on mute by Ardmore at the beginning of the film and he doesn't look happy about it so that's presumably why he well there's the moment later on where he you know protests on behalf of the Tolkans

1:00:12Chris Hewitt:he says I strongly protest yeah It's been noted. Yes. I really wanted him to go back and wipe off his fingerprints on the bulldozer, I'll be honest. Because he does disappear from the film. It's the flight of the Concorde and he disappears and then we don't hear of him again. It's not even we don't see him again. There's not a scene later on where... There's no one else who could report back on his presence is the problem. But clearly, they must know that it's him. Where's that guy who protested about our treatment of the Navi? I don't know who stole that giant bulldozer to help free Jake, but they must know it's him.

1:00:47Chris Hewitt:And there's not a scene where General Artman goes, get him. Yeah, General Artman. Maybe he just couldn't find his way back because he's not in Garmin. Oh, boy. Yeah. Oh, wow.

1:00:58Nick de Semlyen:We don't know. It's one of the issues with these films is that the cast list, because very few people are getting killed off and there are more characters being introduced all the time and it's now been pumped up to like, it is bigger than Fast and the Furious now in terms of just how many supporting characters there are.

1:01:14Chris Hewitt:Yeah.

1:01:14Nick de Semlyen:And it's hard to keep track of them all. I wanted to see a bit of closure to Ian Garvin. I hoped he might show up in the final battle and help them out. Driving a bulldozer. Well, I think you'd already given them the key piece of information that you needed to hand over.

1:01:31Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I know.

1:01:32Nick de Semlyen:I wanted him one of those robot crabs, you know, causing mayhem. I love the robot crabs.

1:01:39Chris Hewitt:They're one of my favorite things. I'm really struggling to find any Americans called Ian. There's a couple of... There's a couple of... I've gone to famous people. This is a shock. I've gone to the Wikipedia for Ian, and I've gone to famous people called Ian. And there's lots of Brits, obviously. There's lots of Australians and Kiwis and lots of Scots. Scots are Brits, of course. But Scott, it's a very Scottish name. There are a couple of American YouTubers, but there are no real people. As far as I can say. Oh, Ian Somerhalder. Oh, yes, that's right. Are you sure he isn't Canadian or something?

1:02:09Nick de Semlyen:He might be Canadian. I'm going to click on him in a second. This is Empire Investigates. Yeah, you may have found the one plot hole. Oh, no, he's American. He's American.

1:02:21Chris Hewitt:Okay, I was going to confront James Cameron with this. Only Ian in all of America. He was born in Louisiana. Do you think he pronounces it Yian? Because most Americans don't know how to pronounce things. Yian. If you're an American called Ian listening to this, please do get in touch.

1:02:37Nick de Semlyen:Yes, please do. We want your birth certificate. We want records. but yeah that was mostly what I had to say was just that I enjoyed

1:02:45Chris Hewitt:I enjoyed Jermaine Clemens in shorts driving a bulldozer around alright Nick's got to leave in five minutes can we talk about Quaritch and Farong

1:02:52Nick de Semlyen:if you you seem to really want to do that

1:02:54Chris Hewitt:well we brought it up and then we got sidetracked by a million different things and I just I honestly I am rooting for those crazy kids I relate can I just

1:03:06Nick de Semlyen:can I just drop a bit of a a bit of a not so humble brag here please I got to direct that scene with Korach and Baral. Okay, we need to investigate this and interrogate exactly what you mean. Just to be clear, you came in for the porn. No, it wasn't specifically the sex scene. It was the scene before that when he arrives in the Ash clan village. Cool scene. Okay, and what does direct mean, Nick? Well, I locked James Cameron in a cupboard. No, we were on the volume. We were on the performance capture stage. Not performance capture stage, sorry. is when he has all the footage and he does the virtual camera rig.

1:03:43Nick de Semlyen:So you look through the viewfinder, you're holding this big sort of remote control.

1:03:47Chris Hewitt:And he can put the camera anywhere. And you look through it

1:03:49Nick de Semlyen:and you can move it around in any direction and you look through it and you can see the Ashclan village and the characters and they're paused. And then they hit play and the scene plays out and you basically can do handheld, you can do any kind of thing. And James Cameron watched me as I made a complete ass of myself trying to direct it. He didn't go with my cut, sadly. That's a stunner. It was pretty cool, though. Where did you put the camera? I was trying desperately not to drop it. You don't. Yeah, you can see it going in and over there. It's the X-rated car. Corrish vision. Yeah. So we see it from the outside of the tent.

1:04:24Nick was like, let's just go inside.

1:04:26Chris Hewitt:Did you sidle up to Jim Cameron and go, I think they should fuck. I think we should see it. You're a Varongan.

1:04:35Nick de Semlyen:Fire and ash XXX. artfully deployed no I did not I did not take my virtual camera into the teepee okay

1:04:42Chris Hewitt:but I just I think those two are really interesting together it's a nice it's a nice unpredictable partnership the sex must be off the charts crazy oh yeah I mean there's no way they're you know keeping it calm there's nothing vanilla going on inside that tent not with that many skulls and bones all over the place no yeah the bone temple 50 shades of quaritch 50 shades of 50 shades of blue I guess it would be 50 shades of blue yeah it's too late he blew himself oh dear so many poorly chosen words in this podcast just in general

1:05:18Nick de Semlyen:on that note for legal reasons I may need to leave

1:05:22Chris Hewitt:I don't want to be associated with this Nick has to go dirty stop out look at that Nick you're just not committed to the cause Nick it's well past clocking off time and here you are wanting to have a life how dare you Maybe I'm going to see Avatar, Fire and Ash again. Are you? No.

1:05:38Nick de Semlyen:But I will be very soon. But you do have plans, don't you? I do need to see it a few more times. I've got to go to the IMAX again. We all saw it together at the IMAX. Chris, you were hosting. And I need to go back to see the Odyssey prologue on the IMAX screen. And then I'm seeing it in 2D. 2D? Okay, or not 2D? I'm seeing it with one of my brothers and my girlfriend and they both refuse to watch it in 3D. The fools. The fools. And then I need to see it another time, which for reasons I can't remember. Yeah. Okay. Oh, no, I want to see it at the Odeon Lux because that's James Cameron's favorite screen.

1:06:09Nick de Semlyen:It is. If the Odeon Lux in Leicester Square is James Cameron's favorite screen. The Odeon Lux West End, I think. West End, which is the smaller of the two.

1:06:17Chris Hewitt:Which is where we will go in event of a nuclear disaster. That's where I saw it twice. Yeah, we've decided this. We've discussed this on the House of Dynamite podcast. My favorite screen in all of London is Screen 5 at the Greenwich Picturehouse because it's downstairs. It's very small. It's like a tiny TV. and it's one minute from your house it feels it just feels lovely down there I don't know that we'd survive a nuclear conflagration but but you know pretty nice but anyway Nick goodbye I see you I don't see you bye thank you for having me hopefully this was a podcast Nick that helped you scratch your quaritch it did oh no have we talked enough about Varang Varang you can never have too much Varang Una Chaplain the best chaplain as we've discussed at length on this podcast.

1:07:03Chris Hewitt:She is terrific and she brings a sense of danger to the film that I think is sorely needed. I think those scenes were right at the beginning where she and her Ash tribe are chasing the Sully clan through the forest. Unlike James, I wasn't so immersed in Pandora that I thought I was there. And so therefore, I thought, I didn't think there was a danger that they would catch them. But the film makes you feel like there is, which is good. and of course they do catch them and then let them go again and they catch them again and so on and then repeat yeah they escape second time I think that's true no they're really sinister they're really creepy and she herself in particular is like slinky and like sexy is probably the wrong word but like she kind of is and I mean certainly Quaritch thinks so and just very threatening in a very unsettling way that we haven't necessarily seen before from these films that hasn't been the type of threat we've had.

1:08:02And I think she works really well for that reason. She seems more feral than any Na 'vi we've seen before. And I don't just mean that she's aggressive and she's savage, but she almost seems less sophisticated, less intelligent isn't the right word, but less, I guess, because she hasn't had as much contact. Because the Amatakaia, when we first meet them, they've had a lot of contact. They've been at Grace's school. They understand the humans, the sky people, quite well. And so I think that's why they come across as being quite sophisticated in their dealings with humans. The Metcain are less so, but really, they're not dealing with humans, they're dealing with the Sully.

1:08:39So again, it's Navi on Navi, as it were. Whereas here, I feel like she, it's almost like first contact. It feels like she's probably had no contact with the Sky people at all, which is why when Jake's using an assault rifle in that Attack on the Wind Trader, she's like, you know, what the hell is that great big thunder boomstick? Give me one of those. And she's fascinated by it. Yeah, and it's not like, yeah, It's not a lack of intelligence. They're very quick to pick up on these things, but it is just a lack of content and lack of context, I suppose, as well. And she is just very, she's full-on demented.

1:09:13I mean, I think we used the word nihilism before, and I think she is. And nihilists are inherently bad people who cannot be trusted. And she is one of them. I mean, I say this because I think we have too many of them in the world right now, but she is really of that ilk. I think she's really, you know, AY abandoned us, so fuck her and fuck the horse she went in on. Some Navi just want to watch the world burn. It is that exact energy. She is the joker in this pack and she is absolutely unrestrained. I mean, the way she uses the guru as well is unrestrained. This is not done. It is breaking the rules of this world.

1:09:52And that, I think, is a really interesting wrinkle to introduce.

1:09:56Chris Hewitt:Why do we fall, Master Spider? to get back up again. Never. Yeah, she's really interesting, isn't she? Do you think she's given enough of a convincing backstory to explain away her attitude and her approach to life? Quite frankly, sometimes a bad guy's, I don't need it. You're evil. I get it. Let's move on. But do you think that, because Cameron does, she talks about the backstory and her people haven't been trying to be destroyed. It's the separation from AWAR seems to be why they are the way they are, that they called to Ewa and Ewa didn't listen, didn't answer when the volcano erupted. You have reached Ewa.

1:10:33Chris Hewitt:I'm not in right now. Press one. Your call is important to us. But sadly, you know, Ewa didn't answer, presumably because Ewa was too busy being a great big floating head somewhere. Look at this, it's like heat. It's a noticeable planetoid. Well, I mean, I think it is, yeah. I think, presumably, like, the volcano manifests as a scar on Ewa herself, right? So she is also cut off from them. And also, they're mobile. She's a fucking planet. I mean, I kind of feel like they could have just moved a bit. Yeah. What's Ewa's deal? I still want to talk more about Farhan, but what the fuck is Ewa's deal?

1:11:15Chris Hewitt:What is Ewa? Why is Ewa? Well, because to a certain extent, it's essentially a supercomputer, isn't it? It's like the mycelial network networks all the living things on Pandora. I think Cameron's talked about how there are many AWAS. They're almost like hubs, like mycelial hubs, like processing hubs. So it's like a supercomputer more than anything. Whether it has one individual single consciousness, consciousness, thank you, or whether or not it's broken into divisions. It's hard to say. So what does Kiri see? What is that head? Who was that head? I think that's just the way Kiri understands it.

1:11:51Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought it was a projection of how Kiri is processing the presence of Ewa. That she's projecting this, something that she can understand, something that she can visualize. But Ewa is. But there is a, don't do it, Chris. There is a consciousness to Ewa and to the planet, which is why when they call upon it, it does answer. Yes. I think you get the sense that it is a network rather than just a single place. It's not a single place. It's more robust than that. hive mind i think yeah although that i think that implies maybe too much individuality for the individual sections like i think that you know the various you know the underwater coral kind of formations and the the you know the great magic trees and the forest and everything else that i'm sure we haven't seen yet i think they're all equal parts of the whole but they're not necessarily independent like some hive minds also have a level of individuals among them i mean we're talking sci-fi concepts here, but you know what I mean.

1:12:50I don't know that that's necessarily the case with all of these different sort of centers of Ewa. But I think it's interesting that she can essentially, when one is damaged, she was able to kind of reboot it so that underwater kind of, it's not quite coral, is it? It's kind of like fronds or whatever. But those fronds switch off when they're damaged and then are switched back on by someone. Turn it off and on again. Yeah, exactly. Just a computer. And that does the job. So she is kind of decentralized and I think spread across the planet and equally maybe everywhere at once. And what we are seeing as a giant head in the sky is the way that she makes sense to her Navi.

1:13:35Which is not to say that that's what she literally is or looks like. And it's very hard then to impute desire or meaning, except maybe I guess the desire to live and the desire to continue living and the desire for her, I don't know if you call them appendages, symbiotes, children, people on her surface, to continue living as well. I think that's about as much agency as we can currently ascribe to her. Because we are assuming that they call to Ewa and Ewa answers, which almost gives a deity-type feel to it. But actually, is it that? or is it, for example, Kiri essentially plugs into the computer, hijacks it, and gets it to do what she wants it to do?

1:14:20So how much of it is actually Kiri's will and not Ewa's will? I'm interested in that. I'm interested in, I mean, because Kiri is Jesus in this scenario. Like, she is Ewa made flesh and brought among us. And she, but yet she's cut off from Ewa from most of this film and I wasn't quite sure of the reasoning behind that. Unless it is... Is it like Nynaeve? Like, it's her. it's a Wheel of Time reference for you there is it her own block that she can't access her own power or is Ewa deliberately separating if Ewa can deliberately do anything is Ewa deliberately keeping her at arm's length that's the question and I don't think that's been fully answered at the end of this film because I don't know that we know at this point I feel like Kiri talks about the fact that she had to do the job with Spider herself she had to transmogrify him or whatever herself because Ewa wouldn't do it for her and so you could see the blockage as a punishment or something for that except it obviously predates that because she was already blocked off.

1:15:20She couldn't do it with Awa's help. So did Awa reason that it was a dangerous thing to do that could have bad consequences? I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. There it is. Or did she, you know, is that Kiri speaking to herself essentially? Is that Kiri's unconscious mind going, I know this isn't the right thing to do but also he's my friend and I have to. This is almost like The Matrix, isn't it? She is the one. She's jacked into The Matrix. She can control the code, and she can rewrite reality to her will.

1:15:48Chris Hewitt:So she's hacking into Mother Awa? I mean, that's genuinely a possibility. Yeah, it is possible. It could be that. Okay, so this hasn't helped me really understand what Mother Awa's deal is. But the pertinent question now is, what the fuck is Kiri's deal? Well, I know. That is the question. I mean, she's obviously been born for a reason. Awa obviously feels a need to take physical, Navi form and not simply, you know, be talking to people through signs and little fluffy things that float through the air. But I don't think we know and I don't think Kiri knows. But she's more than just Mother Ewa in Navi form, right?

1:16:25Chris Hewitt:She's a little bit of, there's a little bit of human in there as well. A little bit of grace. There's a little bit of grace. She does appear to have her own independent personality. Yeah. But like sci-fi and fantasy is littered with people who have their own independent personality and are still part of the godhead, as it were. Name one. Erand in the Belgariad. Name two.

1:16:50No. Got it. No, there's a whole bunch. I don't...

1:16:55Chris Hewitt:Many, many wonderful people. Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, maybe Randall Thor. I was actually going to say Randall Thor. In? Wheel of Time. Wheel of Time, yeah. Oh, shooey. Or you could even say, like, you know, to a certain extent, Dalinar. in the Stormlight Archive. Fuck me, what have I done? Aslan. Aslan, yeah. I brought a knife to a gunfight. Aslan's pretty aware of it, to be fair. Oh, Jesus. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I'm fascinated by Kiri. That final shot, which is really interesting because, correct me if I'm wrong here, I haven't had time to revisit either of the previous two avatars. The final shot of both the avatars to date has been an eye-opening experience.

1:17:35Chris Hewitt:Basically, yeah. Right? And this isn't that. this is the return to Scion at the end of the Matrix, right? They're all having a big old rave inside Mother A-1. It's kind of like, it's a weird almost afterlife-y type thing because it's all the dead ancestors. I feel like we get more of this this time, right? You're seeing actual like, oh, I'm going to literally go flying with my brother in the afterlife now. That feels like something that is maybe more seductive and more dangerous than anyone in this film gives it credit for. It's like, you know, when we reviewed Eternity, and they go to the little rooms to live out their memories and nostalgia.

1:18:11That basically seems to be what AWOS used for. They just plug in and live their memories and talk to their dead relatives. Yeah, but it's going beyond memories. Like, he's literally going up there and flying with his brother. And then his brother is asking about his own death. So there's a level of progression. Because their consciousness does live on within AWOS. It's the idea that it's what the tech bros are all about. It's a post-corporeal existence, isn't it? Where they've uploaded their consciousness to Ewa. Look, he's going bright red in the face. And they exist beyond their corporeal form, which is...

1:18:46He's going to burst. I wonder if...

1:18:54Chris Hewitt:Which one is it in Willy Wonka becomes a big blueberry? That's me at the moment. That's basically you. Yeah, it's fascinating. But you mentioned the time there. I think an interesting point there. So people talk about, we've talked about stakes, should more people have died. Obviously, bearing in mind, Natayim dying was supposed to be the climax of this film. So when it was one film, Natayim was going to die at the end of the film. So what did they move around? Do you know? So basically, I think we talked about this in the interview, a lot of it is kind of almost split in the middle where the climactic fight at the end of Where Water was almost like a mid-sequence in that overall story.

1:19:29But Natayim was going to die at the end. So things have moved around. So, Natiri having all of this sort of like very sort of grief-led reaction to Spider, none of that would have happened because Natayim would still have been alive at that point if it had been one film. So, some things have moved around. But she already didn't like him. She already didn't like him. She's a bit racist. But she hadn't gone properly off the deep end. So, you know, imagine this as a single story. If it had ended with Natayim's death, it would have had a different flavor to it.

1:19:57Chris Hewitt:How did he think this was going to be one film? I think it was like they spitballed the ideas. they had ideas for avatars 2, 3 and 4 and then it got to the point where when they were really breaking down sort of like plot by plot what was going to happen in Avatar 2 they were just like there is just too much plot here we can't make this we're going to have to split this into two so I think that was it was pre-script phase it was like when they were still like you know noodling the treatment but yeah that's when it became 2 alright before we wrap this bad boy up and stick a pin in it for the time being is there anything else a scene that you loved, a moment that you loved or anything that you really want to get off your chest before we go and have some food because I have not eaten for nearly 10 hours.

1:20:43I enjoy being able to show it. Turok Makto again.

1:20:46Chris Hewitt:Oh, Turok Makto. I also really enjoy that anytime the Leonopteryx, isn't that a thing? Yeah, the great Leonopteryx. Anytime the great Leonopteryx is on screen, almost every single shot that he's in, you can just mentally subtitle it, get some and it will and it will fit like when he's just like grabbing fucking helicopters and like swinging around and throwing them at other helicopters just mentally put on a subtitle of yeah get some and it works so well I love the Leonoptrix I love that he goes back to that and I love that it remembers him and it's very pleased to see him because one of my least favourite moments in the film was when his line about when you ride the beast you become the beast the beast rides you and I was just like oh fuck off Jake it looked fucking awesome hey you take that bad about my Jake my Jake if you want to fight Nateri for him good luck to you no no no Nateri can have him by all means she can have them there's a lot to talk about with this movie we don't even have the length of Avatar Fire and Ash maybe we'll do another one in the new year when we come back maybe we'll take some questions from listeners about that do a listener question special and keep them peeled of course for the interview that James did with Rick Chaffa and Amanda Silver.

1:22:01Chris Hewitt:It is, what, 45 minutes? 45 minutes, yeah. Yeah, 45 minutes of Avatar, Fire and Ash goodness. But that is it. I think this is pretty much the last spoiler special of the year. Thanks as ever for subscribing to them and for showing us your support. Genuinely, without your support, this podcast would not exist. So thank you so much for that. Keep them building a new year for spoiler specials. For all kinds of wonderful things, we're looking at doing a 28 years later the Bone Temple spoiler special with Nia DaCosta we're going to do a Hamnet spoiler special with Chloe Zhao the director maybe doing a spoiler special for The Rip with Joe Carnahan and then as the year goes on more and more and more stuff and Jimbo there's a crossover as well isn't there there's a pluribus crossover there is that's very exciting I sat down with Fitz Gilligan and executive producers of that show Gordon Smith and Alison Tatlock and we talked for a long, long time about the final episode of Pluribus Season 1 which is absolutely terrific.

1:23:03Chris Hewitt:The final episode will be out next week and that interview will be out soon afterwards. So even though we're meant to be on holiday right now it never stops around here but we wouldn't have it any other way. In the meantime all that remains now is to say goodbye to my two colleagues of such lethal cunning. I see you, Helen O 'Hara. I see you, Chris Hewitt. thank you very much indeed I see you James Dyer darn right you do oh my word don't know why he quirts it from the west country I don't

1:23:33Nick de Semlyen:not sure what happened there

1:23:37Chris Hewitt:we're not in Kansas anymore

1:23:38Nick de Semlyen:no we're not I'm going to eat your eyes for juju bees well in the Pandora

1:23:46Chris Hewitt:oh my god anyway I'm off to have dinner with these two idiots and let's hope we're not rude to the waiter otherwise we too will be outcast. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.