Avatar: Fire And Ash – The Listeners' Questions Special

19:35Ben Travis:So, yeah. Also, I mean, Quaritch is great in The Way of Water, but I think we saw in Fire and Ash, Quaritch is a great character and they're having more and more fun with him. Varang is instantly like a great character in these. I want more Varang in Fire and Ash. I think she's underutilized. because she's so great when she's on screen. But what we definitely see in Fire and Ash is how great those two characters are together. I don't want one to replace the other. I want them to be the absolute fucked up nightmare power couple of Pandora. And I am ready to see their reign of fire. So it's a sort of we can make each other worse situation.

20:10There was a great tweet going around. There was the whole I can fix him meme. And it was Quarantine Varang saying, I can make her worse.

20:18Chris Hewitt:Your crazy match is my crazy. etc etc etc look I really I really like this franchise I really like this movie I obviously worship at the feet of James Cameron there's no question about that I think one of the slight issues with this franchise for me is that the heroes are not as compelling as the villains for me Jake Sully still three films in is not anywhere remotely as interesting as Quaritch he's a he's a decent character and Sam Worthington plays him well. But if you're looking at the list of great Cameron heroes over the years, you know, Sarah Connor, Kyle Reese, people who aren't in the first Terminator film, Ripley, of course, you know, Bud in the Abyss, you know, Harry Tasker in True Lies, Leo and Kate in Titanic.

21:13Chris Hewitt:I don't think that these characters... No, they're called Leo and Kate. I think you're fine. They say each other's names like 600 times. Do they? In that last act. All right. Jack! Jack! Rose! That's right. Sorry, the Jack murdering Rose is what I meant to say. I don't think that Jake Sully holds up to that long list.

21:35Ben Travis:Kind of partly by design. I think in the original Avatar, I think he's a decent hero, but he's definitely overshadowed by Nick Terry. But I think, as from the way Walter onwards, he's not positioned as the hero. Like, it's about the kids. I think very particularly in this one, they give him a heavy dose of bellendry to make him less sympathetic, in part to set up that scene with Spider. So you think, do you know what? He's become enough of a cock. He might actually just do this. I think they maybe need to give him more of a confidant

22:05to make some of his dilemmas worse. Because I think what we're seeing in these last two films, and particularly in this one, is this is a guy who is really under pressure. Like he specifically and his family specifically are being hunted by his own people, who he has some sympathy for, of course, some sympathy. And he's in a really difficult position. He's trying desperately to keep everybody safe and find a way to protect his own first and foremost, number one, but also Pandora as a whole. and protect what's special about Pandora and protect Ewa ultimately, but also like the whales and everything.

22:45He does care about those, just they're way down the list behind his family. And I think it would be really helpful to have had maybe a few more of those scenes with Quaritch, who is someone who can absolutely relate to on that level and who he could absolutely talk to about this dilemma. But all we see is him trying to justify himself to Neytiri, who has a completely different background and is coming at this from a completely different angle to him. And his kids, who again, completely different understanding of the world. And I think we could have done with, you know, a Grace. We could have done with, we could have done with, instead of seeing Loak flying with his brother, actually, we could have done with Jake talking to Grace in the afterlife or something like that.

23:28And trying to kind of talk out this situation in which he finds himself. I would have appreciated that, I think.

23:35Ben Travis:He's a marine first and a father second, and he's better at one than the other. The way he parents Loak is obviously, it's all over the place, they don't communicate at all, and part of it is grief about Natayim and he's kind of taking out on Loak. But I think you struggle with him a little bit, because Loak, not just the narrator, is kind of our eyes through a lot of this. So I think we see Jake through his eyes a lot, and that's not very flattering. I mean, that would be something interesting for four and five as well, to see Jake and Natiri a bit less on the back foot. they're on the defensive for these two movies as helen said they're under attack they are having to retreat and hide out and find out the best time to attack and yes having these moments where you know he steps up and he takes on the torok makto role again but we've not seen jake and neytiri in a situation of like everything is kind of chill and we have a plan and we're going to go and do some cool action shit it's always like you said helen he's under pressure his family is under attack.

24:33He's worried that his kids are going to die. They're running for their lives. And so I think maybe compared to like Kyle Reese has a plan in the Terminator. Sarah Connor is you know, ready for the attack when Terminator 2 happens. Ripley has been through this shit before and knows what to do. When the time comes, a lot of Cameron heroes are less, I think, on the back foot than Jake and Aetiri are. Even if they're also desperate, yeah.

25:01Chris Hewitt:Alright. let's move on to blue sky uh and this is someone who's just literally slid into my dms a long time pod listener first time questioner says pointless exercise neatly summing up this podcast uh why do these avatar movies have to be so long they are they are amazing pieces of art but two hours and 17 minutes this movie would have been more than enough of that amazing art i disagree i enjoyed it. So did I. I didn't look at my watch.

25:32Ben Travis:No, which is more than can be said for something like Killers of the Flower Moon. No, I just, for me it's partly being in that world, I think as I've said before, and like the more time I spend there the better. Yes, you're right the narrative probably doesn't need that run time but when this film ended I was very disappointed. I wanted more, I didn't want to leave Pandora at that point, so I understand why. I think this film needed to be 20 minutes shorter. It's 3 hours 17 including credits yes and uh the first time around it's just so much movie to take in there's so much going on and um i wrote the review for this and i said that you know it's a bit baggy and i think if you just lost a little bit here and there the really big stuff would have like a bigger impact because you'd be ready for those moments on a second viewing i still felt as great as it is, there is a big stretch in the middle that I think could be shortened, and I think if you took 20 minutes out, I think this would be a total fucking banger.

26:33Whereas at the moment, I think it's a great film with loads of incredible stuff in it, and I love this world, and I love these characters, but it is too long. I think it's too long. It didn't need to be three hours twenty, even compared to The Way of Water being just under three hours, is it? Like two hours fifty-seven or something? that's fine but

26:54Chris Hewitt:that's something about that extra 15-20 minutes like I think adds a little like edge of fatigue towards the end I still think cutting every every third word out would be a great way of just losing 20 minutes from a movie we've been asking you to do that to this podcast for ages I've been doing it if you've not listened of course it's made me much more coherent in fairness here is a question I think we have all been expecting it just happens to be coming from someone called Hope Jam but it's come from a few people, it's the cultural footprint question.

27:29Chris Hewitt:Will anyone even be thinking of these movies in 20 or 30 years time in the same way we think of Star Wars or Marvel? Even after this third film, I don't know if anyone left wanting more. To which a secret at B-Sky replied, I don't think of them the same way after 20 to 30 minutes, let alone years. boom, then he dropped the mic and left Blue Sky forever. I'm guessing. Shall I just say the same thing I said at the episode 700 live pod? I can play that clip if you want. Insert the clip. Roll clip. I think that is massively underestimated anyway, but also I think Way of Water and Fire and Ash being released three years apart is going to create a generation who were like 10 to 13 when these two films came out and they will grow up on a world in which there are three Avatar movies with an expansive mythology and give it seven or eight years.

28:26And if we're getting Avatar 4 and 5, those guys are in their 20s. I think it's going to be an even bigger deal. I think there's a reason why these films alone are all making mega billions. And Fire and Ash is not doing as crazy numbers so far as the previous two, but it's still already crossed a billion in, what, less than a month. and I think the mythology is there now it exists on a massive scale these are huge, huge releases and if you're a somewhat jaded 30, 40 year old you've seen a lot of this stuff before yes, this is just a world that you dip into sometimes I think there is a younger generation for whom this will be there oh, I saw the Star Wars prequels at the right age or I was there for Lord of the Rings and having two big avatars within a couple of years of each other will be that for some people.

29:19I also feel like the cultural impact has been deformed a little bit by certain movies. I think there's different ways of having a cultural impact. I don't think Gone with the Wind was merchandised, you know, particularly in the same period.

29:35Chris Hewitt:I was always playing with my red butter action figure. Well, this is it. Like, we've come to associate cultural impact now with what Star Wars did. And what Star Wars did it was the first film to do that do you want me to play your live show clip as well? yeah I know I just think that there is a different there are different ways of having a cultural impact Titanic didn't have any of that people go to the cinema for these movies who don't feel the need to wear the t-shirt Titanic did have a cultural impact in terms of yes did it begat a lot of imitators no but did French and Saunders this is just one example dedicate an entire show to parodying it and yes they did and I haven't really seen that for Avatar People parodied the first Avatar at the time Ben Scylla turned up in blue was it at the Oscars?

30:24Yeah, so it has been done I just think, you know these are big melodramas these are big soppy movies and I don't think everything has a cultural impact whatever that means in the same way and I think it's a very narrow version of what a cultural impact is would the Marvel films have had that impact were that iconography not already out there in the comics? I don't know that it would have. You know, it's just, it's an impossible thing to measure. I think it's a boring topic.

30:54Ben Travis:It's also a mad conversation because this is a film that came out 15 years ago and is the biggest movie of all time and then 10 years later got a sequel which became the third biggest movie of all time. We're still talking about it a decade and a half later. To say it has no cultural imprint is mad.

31:12Chris Hewitt:Well, I think there's an element of snobbishness in that. I've seen a lot of people, and clearly the box office reflects this, a lot of people have said, look, I'm just not interested. I don't want to see Fire and Ash. And clearly a lot of people haven't gone to see Fire and Ash because the box office is way down on Way of Water and obviously way down further on the first Avatar. But Cameron's not, I don't think he's making it for geeks necessarily. I don't think he's making it for people like us. Absolutely not. He's appealing to a completely different cinematic audience that just doesn't happen to overlap with a lot of people like us.

31:51Chris Hewitt:A lot of geeks love these movies. I mean, obviously, we're four of them. But a lot of geeks as well have actively rejected these movies. I just think it's fascinating.

31:59Ben Travis:There's an element of Counting Crows syndrome to this, right? Like the band. Yeah. Drew Jones! Indeed. But the idea that you start off as this folk rock band as part of the grunge movement, but you become very successful and you're commercialized and maybe there's a hint of a commercial sound to it and you're on Rolling Stone and then, you know, Adam Duritz is dating Courtney Cox and suddenly it's not cool to like Counting Crows because they're just not grungy or alternative or cool enough. But they're really successful and really popular and I do think there's a snobbery around this as well where people look at this and they look at Aliens as cool, Terminator as cool and it's like, oh, this isn't cool.

32:33Ben Travis:This is grungy. It's not edgy enough. Like, oh, all the kids like it as well and like, you know, it's got, I do think it has that to it. It's not cool to like Avatar. It's very, very sincere. And at the same time, as you said, the fact that this is not necessarily aiming for a geek audience, one of the things that I think is super interesting and really underrated about these films is how thinly veiled an allegory it is. I know some people are like, well, it's obviously just this turned into an allegory on an alien planet. And it's like, well, yes, they make a point. so early on in The Way of Water of like Jake Sully is military dad with a handful of kids trying to keep his shit together and all the kids are saying bro to each other because it's like they are we are supposed to relate to them as a normal family as like a nuclear family he's making it as relatable as possible for the widest possible audience by design it's not a flaw it's a feature not a bug I think but I think he makes films and this is kind of maybe also what James is saying I feel like it's underrated how there is an element of misogyny in some of these arguments.

33:42Not all the people who are saying this, obviously, are misogynists. I'm absolutely not saying that. But I do think there's a big, soppy, melodramatic streak in Cameron's films since Titanic that particularly, you know, some male geeks object to. and there's also been a downturn in the violence and certainly the explicit violence since certainly an aliens or a terminator that again i think the same sort of cohort yeah reject and they see that as watering down and they see that as unserious and they see that as sugar-coated or whatever you know whatever word you want to use but i think they see that as almost an offense against them it's the same people who complain about their favorite comic book not being an r-rated movie It's that thought process.

34:33And I think there's an element of that. I'm not saying it's the whole thing. I get that the environmental story isn't subtle. That's true. He isn't trying to be. It wasn't subtle in Terminator. No, indeed. But he's also trying to reach your granny. He's trying to get your mum to the cinema. And he's getting them. He's getting them. And it's not just for you. And I think there is a particular cohort of people who, if it is not just for me, they think it's bad. And I don't think those two are synonymous. It may be that you don't like it and that's totally fine, but that doesn't mean it's bad if it isn't for you.

35:11Ben Travis:It's the whole thing, isn't it? Like that you like something, oh, it's really cool and everyone likes it, it's not cool anymore. And so you do want it to be just yours. Yeah. And I think that's a shame.

35:20Chris Hewitt:Because Avatar is for everyone. There's a question we got, we got several questions like this, but I remember one that really stuck in my mind. I got it last night on Twitter. I haven't looked up who it's from yet it was basically along the lines of why has he wasted his time on these movies for so long and again I think if you said to Jim Cameron you've wasted your time making the, well obviously on one level the most successful movie of all time, the most successful movie of all time and who knows where Fire and Ash will be it's probably going to be in the top 20, 25 movies of all time by the time all is said and done who knows maybe it'll get a second wind and power to two billion.

35:57Chris Hewitt:We don't know at this point in time. But I think if you said that to him, you would get very, very short shrift. But I actually, you know, would part of me have liked him to have made something in between Avatar and The Way of Water? Absolutely, I would have loved him to make at least two movies. He could have maybe saved this from Battle Angel Alita, you know, by making his own version of it. That would have been very, very nice. but I also think it's fucking rad and clean and powerful that he has made this wholly original vision and he has gone all in on it and spent hundreds of millions of dollars of someone else's money making these movies making this reality making this world it's an epic achievement in storytelling and I applaud that quite frankly And again, some of these images have been on his mind since the 70s.

36:54I've said this before, but you go to that art exhibition of Cameron's work, and this is stuff that he has been drawing in notebooks since he was in high school. This is not a casual little thing that he's dashed off. This is a culmination for him.

37:11Chris Hewitt:I love novelistic storytelling on the big screens. One of the reasons why I love the MCU, people can scoff and poo-poo the MCU all they want. nothing like that has ever been attempted before nothing like that will ever be done again to the scale that it is being done this long form novelistic chapter led storytelling where a character in one film shows up in 25 films later it's extraordinary George Lucas came close with Star Wars of course he was only directly responsible for six movies Cameron by the end of Avatar who knows where he's going to go but in terms of screen time he's going to eclipse I think what Lucas did with Star Wars and this is all his world.

37:50Chris Hewitt:Yes, he has co-writers on this, in this case, Rick Chaffa and Amanda Silver. Shane Talerno, I think, on one of the next ones has done four and five. I think Chaffa and Silver in the mix as well on those two movies. But what he's doing is novelistic on a scale that has rarely been seen on the big screen before and it's all from one person and that's extraordinary. Wasted your time? No, he has not wasted his time. The absolute balls just to be like, I am basically just going to do my own Lord of the Rings and I'm just going to write the story first is crazy. And it takes somebody like Cameron who has that mindset.

38:23It's not just that nobody else really has the clout to do it. I don't think anyone else really has the balls to really go that huge.

38:31Chris Hewitt:Would people really prefer him to be spending the last 15 years making other people's IP? No. I don't know.

38:36Ben Travis:I don't know. I mean, to a certain extent, he kind of moved beyond that, didn't it? I think he loves playing in his own world. But Battle Angel's not his own IP. No, that's true. And he was going to direct that. You're absolutely right. but I think he definitely he prefers I mean didn't he said this after Aliens he doesn't want to be a director for Haya that's not what he sees his role in movie making he's a storyteller yeah

38:56Chris Hewitt:but he still spent ages in Spider-Man and yes in a sliding doors universe I'd love to see that I do want him to make this movie by Hiroshima and Nagasaki I do want to see that and I'd love to see him play outside the world of Avatar he's in his 70s now you know he'll outlive us all I'm sure because his diet is much improved but you know to be really I don't know he doesn't have a lot of time left he doesn't have decades left and you know so I'd like to see other films outside Avatar and maybe you'd like to see something in the 15 years between those two movies but we are here and this is the movies that he's committed to making and I applaud the fact that he's doing it we don't have a lot of time left so here's another one from Blue Sky Talentar Steve Talentar on Blue Sky now that Fire and Ash has made money if Cameron goes ahead with the next films will he use his existing VFX tech to get them done quicker or is he going to spend 10 years inventing something new and mind-blowing?

39:49Chris Hewitt:His cast will age, which can be digitally dodged to an extent, but so will he and his audience. This is a very good point.

39:57Ben Travis:Well, because he's shot the first 20 minutes of the next film and then there's a time jump, isn't there? So I think they're supposed to age. He already has a 70-something playing a 14-year-old, so I would submit that the aging of the cast is not...

40:08Chris Hewitt:But if he takes too long to make four and five, you'll have an 87, 80-something, Sigourney Weaver playing a 20-something theory. Yeah, no, this is true. I don't think he will. I think he has said that the big leap was between Avatar and Way of Water, that that was where he spent most of his time. The mere fact that it took a mere three years from Way of Water to this one suggests that he is actually now kind of cooking. So, fingers crossed not having said that, there was a technological leap, and there was a technological leap to Avatar. So, whatever he's doing in terms of developing this stuff does seem to be working pretty well i mean he did say to us in an interview at some point within the last year um that fire and ash was easier to make even in the wake of the way of water like the post-production side all of the processes he told us a couple of months out from the film's release that like oh at this point on the way of water we were like fighting tooth and nail to keep up on this one we're kind of in a good place and that feels weird on an Avatar film to feel like, do you know what?

41:13Loads of it's done. So I think the processes they already have are becoming more streamlined. They're becoming better and quicker. He's also said in interviews that a major factor for him is trying to speed up the process so that he can keep making these movies and make other things and not have to put as much time into this stuff. So that's very much on his mind as something to do. And when something is on James Cameron's mind, it gets done. if he even directs

41:43Ben Travis:the rest of them I need him to I don't want him to pass them to other people there is no guarantee that he will direct them yeah I don't want that to happen I don't want that to happen because also if he does do all five again who the fuck has done that to like create an entire mythology from scratch and direct five gigantic films themselves nobody else has done that before and I think what people currently see as being like why is he you know titting around on this for so long will in hindsight people will be like oh James Cameron he did the Avatar movies but then also there's all this other incredible stuff when you go back it's like a different vantage point that I think it might be seen from down the line I will say I don't think he feels any need to prove himself in any respect whatsoever rightly so so I don't think he's thinking that way necessarily but you're right it would be pretty cool he's never done a podcast he probably has done a podcast he's absolutely and it's much better

42:37Chris Hewitt:than that much much better than this alright let's move to Twitter now shall we let's move to Twitter and this question comes from Ringframe who says did you like Awar having a face I didn't like Awar having a face does Awar have a face yeah I got this as two humanistic Navi-ish people who have faces seeing Awar would be a reflection of their own imagery and therefore maybe other people see Ewa in different ways. I don't think Ewa is literally a big-faced god in the middle of the planet, but I think if you were to witness the face of God, you would witness a face so that it is something comprehensible to you beyond some kind of Lovecraftian nightmare.

43:24Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is.

43:26Ben Travis:I think, I don't, you know, in this sense Ewa, as I understand it, is almost like an interconnected network of things in this place. It's not just one thing, it is a Borg collective, if you will. But I think... I won't. I think they're making sense of it in the only way, exactly as you say, that they can. And so they see a great big floating face. Because I also don't think Ewa is in the middle of a big forest, but for Kiri to, you know, get to that. Or it's underwater, isn't it? But that's what she knows, isn't it? It's an environment that she understands. She's imposing her own reality on something that's clearly beyond her comprehension.

44:02Chris Hewitt:David Moran on Twitter, I was re-watching The Way of Water the other night and was reminded how the Met Kaina and Loak communicated with the Tolkien via sign language. So how did the blinded Tolkien know when it was called forward to give its story? Was he given a little signal by Pyakhan? Because there's lots of vibrations in the water of like whales going, and you see the water go, It's too painful. God, the whale subtitles are so good. I will never be bored of the whale subtitles. They're so silly, but I love them. yeah I think I think it's whale talk isn't it it's whale talk it's whale talk forget it Jake it's whale talk I speak whale oh dear me we don't know is the answer to that question long story short alright let's move back to the sub reddit Apollo Vane and a few people have asked this which direction would you take a potential sequel in order to mix it up from the format of 2 and 3 and someone else asked on another platform I'm sorry, I don't know who it is or where it was what environment we would like to see Hoth style ice Tatooine style desert Camden style KFCs what would you like to see?

45:21Chris Hewitt:No more biomes

45:22Ben Travis:we've seen the planet, I think variety I don't think we need to go to a desert only bit or an ice only bit otherwise you're in a video game or Star Wars And I just don't think we need that. I think we can accept it has multiple climates and areas. Yeah, there might be something interesting about being on the edge of such a place, especially if they go with the wind traders or something like that. You could have traveling through such places. Because I think Byron Ash did introduce the interesting idea of, you know, a volcano has destroyed our relationship to Ewa because it has destroyed the biome in our area.

45:55And so fuck her then. But that was kind of an interesting take and an interesting thing for somebody on Pandora to have to deal with. So I wonder if it would be interesting to see how people deal with ice or desert or what Ewa looks like and acts like in such places. And maybe, for example, the humans try to set up in such a place thinking they'll have less problem with the local wildlife. And would that work or not? I don't know. But that could be an interesting thing to explore.

46:22Ben Travis:I feel like space is something that will get explored. Yeah. The final frontier. I feel like it's not if the story goes to its conclusion I think there will definitely be some space based stuff I think there's an earth I think yeah some earth based stuff would be interesting as well

46:36Chris Hewitt:I want to see more about the Selfridges I love Parker Selfridge I want to see him play a full round of golf and I want people to go these films are too long they're not long enough I want a full four hour round of golf in Avatar 4 and I want to get inside Parker Selfridge's head why? It's just empty. It's not empty. It's pretty empty. We'll meet his dad, right? They make a reference to his dad, the colonel, I think, or the captain, the colonel, the chairman. And you began with C. It's Frank Sinatra. It was either letter Calzone. Frank Sinatra. The chairman of the board. The chairman of the board.

47:12Chris Hewitt:Well, he was never tied in with any illicit illegal activities. I don't see why there would be a crossover there. Two last questions, because I've got to run next door to interview Claire Foy. Peter Mark Allenson, this is on Threads now. I'm really moving around. Has Fire and Ash shifted who you root for in the Avatar universe? No, I always root for James Cameron. That is actually ultimately true. I think I came out of it caring more about the kids than I did last time. Not that I wanted harm to come to them last time, but I feel more invested in their well-being this time. When Spider goes off the edge of the big rock at the end.

47:50I didn't for a second think he was dead.

47:52Chris Hewitt:No, but were you like, oh no, not Spider. we love spider no because I didn't for a second consider the possibility that he was coming to any harm whatsoever

48:00Ben Travis:James did not during that scene yeah in the forest scene in the forest I didn't think there either but I had a moment but the sound

48:08Chris Hewitt:the dishonest sound dirty pool but otherwise yeah I just I just care more I thought Loak came out of this movie much better off for example that is my answer I have actually really cared about Loak since The Way of Water but I truly would not mind if it got to a place where Loak becomes a really central part of this. I think he's a really interesting analogue to Jake, especially because Jake was not supposed to be Jake Sully. It was supposed to be his brother. He is the sort of slightly shitty younger brother who was never supposed to do this stuff. And that dynamic of Loak and Deteam, that Deteam was like the very proper, got his shit together older brother, and Loak was the younger piss-around brother, and now is put in a position that is above his reach, really.

48:55He is like a little Jake, and so I would like more Loak going forward.

49:01Chris Hewitt:More Loak going forward. Honestly, I think the hero or the protagonist of these movies over the five films will be revealed to be Kiri. Ultimately, I wouldn't be 100 % on Jake or Natiri making it to the end. Maybe both will go. Quaritch will obviously die before the end of the films the five films but weirdly enough he's actually one of the ones I'm most infested in because I think there is good in him I have felt it not like that you sickos last question real quick because I'm being summoned I think this is a question that has been on everyone's lips since we saw Avatar Fire and Ash and I think this is a question that only this group can answer this comes from Darren4x on threads how far are the Metcayena from Bridgehead City it sometimes feels like days of flight away oftentimes like an hour at most okay thanks for all your questions it's been it's been a lot of fun James you can answer that can't you?

49:59Chris Hewitt:the exact distance I think it's a few hours a few hours 12 parsecs I hope we see David Thule in the next one we didn't get enough David Thule in this one oh that's a terrible experiment and it's terrible experiments alright I'm definitely being summoned that is it for our Avatar Fire and Ash listeners question special hope you guys enjoyed it goodbye to Helen toodaloo goodbye to Ben bye goodbye I forgot how to speak goodbye goodbye to James it's too painful it is too painful and goodbye from me thanks for listening I see you see you next time bye bye I see you next time it was right there staring me in the face bye