Avengers Endgame Encore — An Empire Podcast Spoiler Special

0:14Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to the latest in our series of spoiler special podcasts And this one is dedicated to a little film I like to call Avengers Endgame. What? But Chris, didn't you guys do like a thousand spoiler specials, including a live show dedicated to Avengers Endgame when it came out in 2019? Well, yes, we did. So consider this our Avengers Endgame spoiler encore. That's right, because we have just been to the cinema. We have just been to the Cineworld Leicester Square to watch Avengers Endgame Encore. And by we, of course, I mean me and my two colleagues of such lethal cunning, Helen O 'Hara.

1:01Hello. And Amon Warman. Hello. How are you both? Good. Yeah, good. All the better for spending the morning with Endgame. All the better for spending£78 of my own money, which is a lot of fun. Very, very good. By the way, you both owe me£26. What? So, yes, that works. So, yes. What did you think of Avengers Endgame Encore? Obviously, we're here to talk about the four crucial post-credits sequences that we saw in the IMAX version. Didn't see it in Infinity Vision. I wonder if there's anything lurking around in Infinity Vision that wasn't for the IMAX people. But what did we make of it? Hellspells.

1:45I mean, look, it is by a percentage of what you've spent, the time you've spent at the cinema. It is a very, I would submit, small percentage of the time that you have spent at the cinema. It is perhaps 2%, I think I'm probably right in saying. Roughly 2 % of your time. So, hang on. Not counting adverts. Okay, so the stuff we saw, the extra stuff. The extra stuff is probably... 2 % of the film, you would say? Yeah. So what does it equate to? Two minutes, roughly? I'm actually allowing more. I'm allowing it to be like four minutes. Yeah. Right? It doesn't feel like four minutes to me. Four minutes of 180...

2:26I don't want to get bogged down in mathematics here because I want to talk about the content. But is that 2 % of a film? Four minutes of a 183 minute running time? Yeah, it'd be just over 2%, right? 2%, okay. So boil it down into cold, hard cash. I paid£26 for my seat. So 2 % of that is 52p. So that was 52p's worth. Amon, did you get your money's worth from the extra footage that we just saw? Which in case people haven't seen it, I don't know why you're listening to this if you haven't seen it, but if you have, you'll know that there are four-ish. Kind of. Kind of. Depending on how you count. Post-credit scenes that have been put in by the Russos and Marvel to kind of prepare the way for Avengers Doomsday, which is obviously coming in a couple months time and one of them isn't even a post-credits sequence it's a pre-credits sequence which adds or tramples all over depending on your viewpoint the exquisite ending of Avengers Endgame there's another one with Mark Ruffalo's Bruce Banner deep in a subterranean bunker that nobody can get into he says very pointedly before someone does and a third one at the TVA where they're all panicking because there's all sorts of incursions.

3:43And then the fourth one, Blink and You'll Miss It, where they take Tony banging the anvil, making the Iron Man mask, which was their little way of saying goodbye to Tony at the end of Avengers Endgame. And now we see that it's another person making a mask. But it's the same actor. But it's the same actor. New mask. Same task. Same task. So, did you get your money's worth 52p? More importantly, I would say, we got your money's worth 52p. So I think that's really what's worth focusing on here. So angry. I agree with that. So angry. 78 quid. We are so privileged. We recognize this. We are so privileged to get out to see movies for free.

4:24And, you know, now and again, I do have to pay to see a movie. But 26 pounds? Are you kidding me? Right now? And then obviously times three, 78 pounds? Oh my God. Anyway, I'm on. Did you get your money's worth? did you enjoy the post-credit sequences? That's what we heard discussed by and large because we've already filled about 12 hours of podcasts talking about Avengers Endgame, which I love 3000, by the way, and still do. Yeah. I enjoyed the post-credit sequences. I was hoping for a little bit more. I didn't even know going in that there were going to be post-credit sequences. I was thinking they would...

5:00Insert them into the film somehow? Yes. Now, I think that would have been jarring. I thought they were going to maybe restore some deleted scenes. I thought we might get maybe a scene with Tony because there wasn't that scene that they filmed with Tony and older Morgan after he clicks his fingers. I thought maybe we'd get the Natasha and Bruce scene after Bruce clicks his fingers with the Infinity Gauntlet. But we didn't. We didn't do that. And I began to realize as Endgame was barreling along that they weren't going to do that which is why it was such a shock when suddenly Steve and Peggy go in for the kiss and I'm waiting for it to go to the credits.

5:44A rude knock at the door. A rude knock at the door. And as much as they tried to make Chris Evans and Hayley Atwell look exactly the same as they did in that sequence seven years ago, they don't quite manage it, I think. And there's something about maybe the film stock slightly different. I'm sure they've tried their best. I'm sure they've done. I didn't bump up on that too much. I thought that was okay. Okay. but yeah I mean I was obviously ready to suspend disbelief at that point this yeah so it's kind of a it's a bit end of Back to the Future isn't it you know sort of Doc Brown showing up and saying well not quite saying we got to do something about your kids but not not saying that either as Endgame establishes Back to the Future is a bunch of bullshit so I know that's true that's true I wonder what the composer of Back to the Future thinks about that hey if only he'd been involved somewhere here.

6:37One Alan Silvestri, of course. Yeah. All right. Should we take them in order? Okay. Let's do it. All right. So I was, I was, I'll be honest, I was jarred by the fact that we suddenly cut to that sequence. And, but I enjoyed that scene for what it was. Once I realized what they were doing, then I enjoyed that scene. And of course, it doesn't, Avengers Endgame exists on its own as an entity. So if you want to see that ending, which I think is a perfect ending for Steve, a happy ending for Steve, if you will. Stop that. Or maybe we're just minutes away from a happy ending for Steve. Then you can, of course, go and see Avengers Endgame in whatever format you want, with the possible exception, of course, of Infinity Vision, which is being saved for Encore and for Doomsday.

7:25So once I realized what they were doing, I quite enjoyed that scene and it's quite interesting, isn't it, Amon? So the door knocks and you're wondering And who is it? Is it going to be Doctor Doom? There's somebody. You are all living stolen lives. And it wasn't. It was only bloody Loki. So what's happening? I am imagining that he has projected himself. Obviously, he's at the center of everything. He's in the center of Idrisul. He is the god of stories right now. And I'm imagining that Loki is getting the sense of what might be coming with Doom and is projecting himself as kind of an early warning system.

8:06And he has gone to Steve and Peggy to kind of keep them safe. I'm imagining that he is... Just think about the other trailers and the Super Baby theory that I had. He sees that that may be important. And knowing that the multiverse is collapsing, he's kind of shepherding them away to a safe place so that they don't get mushed up with all the other universes there has been a theory that they're in a different universe so you're saying that that timeline that Steve's in is one of the universes that's going to be splatted so Loki moves them to different universes your theory and then later the baby gets kidnapped we're assuming and then Steve swings into action we're assuming it's possible that makes a certain sense I got more of a warning than a spirited away as it were vibe from that scene but I do want to see what happens next because Steve would obviously be somewhat reluctant to believe anything Loki says true given their history together and you know as much as Loki can say listen this is going to seem weird but I'm actually in the middle of a kind of massive time tree at the moment I've turned over a new leaf a whole bunch of leaves Owen Wilson Owen Wilson turned my life around, you see.

9:32Wow. And now I'm a good guy, and you can trust that. Yes. And in fact, just to help you out, here is a subscription to Disney +, so you can catch up on my adventures. Of course, this is the 1950s. They won't have Disney+. Oh, my God. Stymied. Stymied at the first hurdle. What a tough one. I am very intrigued to see what happens next in the second part of that conversation. Does it... I mean, the whole timey-wimeyness of this all It's very, very interesting to me. So that is the happy ending that Steve Rogers gets. Not like that, Helen. You absolute, you filth bucket. That's the happy ending he gets at the end of Endgame.

10:15So my headcanon for Steve's life after that is that he and Peggy lived out their time and Peggy rose to prominence in S.H.I.E.L.D. whereas Steve was kind of behind the scenes, not really letting people see him necessarily because he's quite recognizable. Even in the 1950s or 1960s, people would go, hang on, your ageless husband looks a lot like Steve Rogers. I'm pretty sure I saw him leaping 14 fences in one bound the other day. Oh yes, yes, I do remember that. Probably he grows his incognito beard again. He does. I hope for Peggy's sake. His incognito, maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's what it is.

10:52He was just on the incredible Marvel disguise that is a baseball cap and nobody will know. No one will see him. But then he just looks like him at a baseball game. Yeah. So he lives his life with Peggy, right? Yeah. And then he times it just right. He remembers the day that he went back in time and he goes to the Avengers compound the day after or maybe a couple of days, maybe even a couple of weeks after they kicked Thanos' ass and just waits for him to disappear for you back to the future again. And then he appears and he just, rather than walking up to them, he does it with style and class.

11:26He sits down on the bench and waits to be noticed, which I like. A very old age pensioner, isn't it? I'm sitting here and I'm not getting up. Even though I could just walk 10 paces over there, I've earned the right to sit down. To have a sit down. So this ending, this kind of added on ending shifts my perception of that somewhat. I think it shouldn't because I think it doesn't make sense and you shouldn't think about it too much. If I'm perfectly honest. All right. I don't think this is going in the same way that we weren't happy with how exactly Steve lived out his life not doing any heroism between 1950-odd and the present day.

12:12And it gave us headaches. And we heard that the Russos and the writers didn't even agree on what had happened in the interim either. So we just, I for one, decided to park it and table it and never think about it again. I feel like there's going to be an element of that in Steve's story this time as well. I think we're just going to have to roll with it like Oasis would want. Okay. You going to roll with it, Amon? You going to take your time? You got to say what you say? Don't let anyone get in your way? Because it's all too much, Amon. For me to take? I agree. You got to stand aside. You got to be denied.

12:50You got to be who you be if you want to be me. Is it me or free? I was about to compliment your lyric recall. Thank you. I think I've got a feeling I've lost inside. Oh, God. I think I'm going to take me away and hide. Okay, okay, enough, enough. Yes, I am going to roll with it. Because, yeah, I'm just recalling all the post-endgame articles and arguments between the writers about the timey-wimey stuff. Nobody could agree with anything, and I'd rather not go back down that path. And yet here we are. But who's to say that the Steve who rocks up on that bench at the Avengers compound and has that conversation with Sam, which again, 10 out of 10, no notes, just generally for the film.

13:35Amazing. Who's to say that he hasn't already had his Doomsday adventure at that point? He just doesn't mention it. Yeah, it is possible. That is entirely possible. And we may find out that that's what happened. There's all sorts of theories online about is the Steve in Doomsday good Steve, bad Steve, neutral Steve, new Steve, different Steve, and any of those could be true as well. The frustration, joy, whatever you want to call it, of the multiverse is that all things and no things can be true at once, and we won't really know which way they're going until we see it. And maybe not even there, let's be honest.

14:14But yeah, I think, look, I think it makes sense that Steve is one of the people that you maybe want to reach out to if there's a problem. You know, as Endgame, re-watching Endgame once again demonstrated, he's quite good in a tough spot. He's a useful person to have around. He's good at emerging from the shadows, I think. We didn't even see... Oh, we should have watched Infinity War first. I didn't go back and re-watch Endgame before this, because I didn't want to watch it so close to the screen today. But I wanted to kind of take me by surprise again. I genuinely felt all the feels again. Me too.

14:46Oh, God. Even early doors when Tony's saying goodbye to Pepper on the spaceship, I was kind of tearing up because, again, I remember that's my headcanon. That speech is what's going through Tony's mind as he actually is dying. It's like, oh, my God. It's an incredible feat. On our way into the studio, we were talking about shows and things that haven't stuck the landing, like Game of Thrones, the ending, and that was in 2019 also. And The Rise of Skywalker, also in 2019. Sorry, Ben Travis, but that did not stick the landing. It didn't get off the ground, to be honest. And this, everything that I had to juggle, everything that it does, action, emotion, humor, I'm still getting that.

15:30And it lands it with the grace of an Olympic gymnast, honestly. It's really special. And I'm glad I got to be delivered again on the big screen. All right, we have time. And we only have an hour, by the way, to do this because there's a radio show in the studio immediately after us. And apparently they need to go on air live. Rude. Yeah, I was like, guys, we've just seen Endgame Encore. We need to talk about... Portals. Yes, we should talk about portals. We also should talk about three minutes of screen time for about three hours. But I want to interrogate the Stevie-ness of it a little bit more because obviously we know he's coming back now on Doomsday.

16:06And, you know, Doom has that line because again they showed the trailer for Doomsday just before Encore and he has that line you're all living stolen lives and it keeps cutting to people who are indeed living stolen lives and Steve is one of those people he is living a stolen life and I was also taken by this time around how much damage they do to existing timelines when they go back to get the stones like just little things that seem satisfying in the moment but might actually have genuinely huge repercussions for the multiverse. Thor goes back to Asgard 2013 and leaves with the other Thor's Mjolnir.

16:50Now, are you saying that doesn't have repercussions? But he goes back to the same exact time, right? Steve does have Mjolnir with him, I guess. Yeah, he brings Mjolnir back. But also, he must re-inject Jane Foster. and that's a bit fucked up I keep saying there's some short films like some Marvel one shots unfortunately these would cost 250 million dollars but the ones I want to see are Steve putting everything back I want to see what happened there and I want to see the 10 minutes between Doctor Strange being revived and him running around with wongers trying to recruit everybody every single person yeah explain what's going on yeah the one which I'd be really intrigued to see that I'm not sure we ever will sadly is Steve returning the Soul Stone and seeing Red Skull as the guide in Warmare.

17:42That conversation, that scene would be incredible. Yeah. But we're probably not going to do that. That, I think, would probably get Hugo Weaving back in the MCU. Like his niece is now in the MCU. He'd be all over that, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Sure. Make it happen. So the Stevie-ness of it all, just very, very quickly, I think it's fascinating. The Stolen Lives thing, there's also a shot of Cyclops who is living a stolen life because he died, of course, in the X-Men continuity and then was brought back because of the timey-whiminess of Days of Future Past. So, you know, is Doom targeting those people?

18:16We'll get onto it in a second because the Doom banner one is very interesting. But I've read that rumor as well about Chris Evans perhaps being, you know, the kind of, well, not evil Cap, but the Hell Hydra Cap. Well, that's evil Cap, I guess. That would be evil Cap. That's quite evil. I'm not sure that works I hate it. Yes. Flames, flames on the side of my face. He attracts Mjolnir. And Mjolnir surely wouldn't go to that cap because Mjolnir would go, you're a dickhead, mate. Yeah. Your theory from... I like my theory for that. What's your theory? My theory that that's Loki with Mjolnir. Why would Loki be...

18:51Because he needs to recruit Thor and he needs to talk to Thor long enough for, you know, like he needs Thor to listen for long enough to take him seriously. Right. So go as Cap, the most trustworthy person around. But why wouldn't he go as Loki? Because Loki is not trustworthy, as far as Thor knows. But Thor, the last time Thor saw Loki, he was very trustworthy. They were brothers. They had reconciled. They've been brothers and reconciled quite a few times. I'm sorry. I'm calling Buncombe. I'm pressing my Buncombe button. Look, it's my pet theory based on absolutely nothing, I'll have you know.

19:27I think it's the Eternals in disguise. interrupted on their way back to their home planet and finally getting back into the brain. That's what it is. So I'm very, very intrigued by that. All right. Let's talk about the second, the second one, which we've seen these only once. Yes. Feels like a low, low. Listen very carefully. I have seen this only once. And it cost me 26 pounds. Banner. So Mark Ruffalo as Bruce Banner filming himself two miles below the surface of the planet in some sort of underground lair. It looked a bit like it was connected to Captain America, the film, you know the film, the one we don't like so much.

20:13Brave New World. There we go. So it looked like it was like that base or similar that he was in, further underground than we saw in that film, but that kind of vibe. And yes, and this is clearly post-brand new day. He's talking about an incident. Yeah. So this must be post-brand-new day, and he's trying to get the Hulk back under control. I definitely agree that it's post-brand-new day. The line that I'm tripping up on a little bit is that he says, it's been over a decade since my last incident. Now, this last incident that we've seen was in brand-new day, which was in MCU. That's what he's referring to.

20:47Yeah. But it had been over a decade since my last incident. Before that. Because before that, the Hulk was either off-planet or Smart Hulk. Yeah. Professor Hulk. The Hulk's last incident, proper incident on Earth, was Age of Ultron. Well, even Age of Ultron, it wasn't an incident. He was doing what he wanted to do at that point. Well, no, it was an incident. No, but it wasn't like he wasn't... Because he destroyed Johannesburg. Oh, sorry, Age of Ultron. I was thinking Infinity War. Sorry, yes. Age of Ultron is exactly right. Okay. Yeah. To me, that's what he's talking about. Yeah. Got it. I think in my mind, I was thinking the last time we've seen him be that version of the Hulk was in Infinity War, which was 2018.

21:31But you see, it did say Incident, which does 2015. Okay, makes sense. And also the Infinity War, Ragnarok, Hulk, and Banner have a kind of weird relationship. But anyway, yeah, that line stood out to me as well. But first time around, I haven't seen it the second time around. that was my least favorite of the four well let's just the Doom ones just barely counts yeah so of the three that was my least favorite it felt the clumsiest it felt the clumsiest in terms of the exposition that they gave Ruffalo I'm deep beneath this I'm two miles beneath the surface there's no way the Hulk is getting out well actually he could the Hulk could very easily he could but he might slow him down enough for other people to arrive you know two miles is nothing to the Hulk and no one is going to get in.

22:22Well, gee, I wonder what's going to happen. And of course, clearly, Doom visits him and says, I've come to collect you. Yes. Now, what does that mean? Well, that does seem to support the whole, you know, stolen people factor, doesn't it? Because when you watch the Doomsday trailer before the film, which we did, there are those very significant shots of people with their babies or children. and then, you know, while Doom is talking about sort of what his plans are. So the collecting thing maybe makes a certain amount of sense and it is maybe how we're going to get X-Men without their universe and that kind of thing.

23:02But what stolen life is Banner living? I don't think, I think you're too maybe hung up on the stolen life as a time travel thing. I don't think it's just that. I think it's almost more the way that maybe Hawkeye was acting out after the snap. I think it's more maybe, you know, you're all alive and my family are dead. How fucking dare you? So I don't think it's just people who are living on literal borrowed time. I think it might be wider than that. Because also, he's collapsing, we're hearing, thousands of universes. So it's clearly not that clinical. He is clearly not only concerned with people who have time traveled and benefited from it.

23:46It is clearly bigger than that. It's interesting that you think he's doing that. So you think he's behind the collapse of the multiverse? Well, I think we'll get on to the other post-pandemic scene. We can do it now. We can do it now. But like, in my mind, because we get to a number that 3 ,000 incursions are happening all at once. I love you 3 ,000 incursions. I don't love you 3 ,000 incursions. I'm imagining that that is happening simultaneously with Doom finding where Loki is and attacking him. Because I don't see Loki letting that happen willingly. It's more, in my mind, he's trying to fend off Doom while still trying to hold the multiplayer together.

24:30But that's too much. And so he's losing sort of strands, big strands at the same time that the TVA is having those readings. Oh, maybe. In my mind, that's how that's happened. But I don't see Loki letting go of that many strands willingly all at once. Why would Doom attack Loki? To absorb his power. Right, okay. I mean, I absolutely get Doom attacking Loki. That seems possible and probable to me. I don't know about the universe collapse being a mere side effect to Doom. I don't know about that, but we'll see. It's more that Loki is trying to hold off to him while still trying to hold off. No, I get what you're saying.

25:12I just don't know that it's not a little bit more targeted than that. I honestly kind of wanted a line in the TVA episode with Morbius going, you know, I'm going downstairs. Morbius would be a real multiverse guy. With Morbius saying, I'm going downstairs to talk to the big guy or something. Do you know what I mean? I wanted a reference maybe to Loki there, and I thought there would be one more than there was. I liked the employee of all time. That was excellent. That was cute. Of course, Ki-Hui Kwan in there, as well as Obi, Owen Wilson as Mobius. None of those have been announced as cast members in Doomsday, but I think it's fairly obvious now that they're going to be in Doomsday.

25:49Unless we only see the aftermath, like we saw with Asgard at the beginning of Infinity War. Possibly. Unless we see a sort of depopulated TBA. Possibly. I think it's also fairly obvious now that Mark Ruffalo is going to be in Doomsday, although they have not announced him yet. my feeling is that Doom is collecting Hulk to use him as muscle. That crossed my mind also. Yes. He can... It crossed my mind but I'm also like in our brand new Daysport special we were talking about how hard it is to control the Hulk. Do you think Doom is a person? I guess he could manage it but it'd be difficult. I think if anyone can manage it it would be Victor Von Doom.

26:38I mean, yes. It could also be that he isn't in Doomsday. It could be that he goes straight to Secret Wars. Congratulations, Dr. Banner. You have gone straight to Secret Wars. Do not pass go. Do not collect£78. Yeah, it's possible. That's all I'm saying. I thought that too, but then why have that post-credit scene here in the lead into Doomsday while saying that this is essential for Doomsday. Well, I mean, they're not trying to just sell one film, they're trying to sell two, number one. And number two, their post-credit stings haven't always been that clinical in phases four and five. I think these ones are.

27:18These ones are clearly ones that have been shot and written specifically to try and bridge the gap between Endgame and Doomsday, or a brand new day and Doomsday in this case. And I think that's where it's pointed. and I don't I'm with them on this I don't think they would have a post-credit thing that sets up secret wars I think that we're gonna I think it's gonna be a lot of people in Doomsday whose names weren't announced in those chairs we've already had two officially confirmed Chris Evans and Hayley Atwell I think this pretty much confirms Mark Ruffalo I would not be surprised if Cumberbatch Holland the entire country of Holland are in Doomsday at some point It just depends how much they're in doomsday and what doomsday is going to be.

28:06Because at this point in time, we still don't know. I am beginning to develop theories in my secret lab, two miles underground, that no one can get into. And unfortunately, I can't get out of. So this is now a life model decoy situation. But yeah, theories that I just, I think, there may be I'm feeling a rug pull with Doomsday in the same way there's a five years later rug pull with Endgame I don't mean they're going to repeat the same thing but I think that Doomsday is not the movie that it's being sold as right now I don't really have anything to base that on except pure vibes can I just say by the way I agree actually 60 pounds for a popcorn bucket I know what the fuck yeah literally so they have an Ironfinity gauntlet, whatever we're calling it.

28:58I like that. Popcorn bucket that was on sale at the cinema where we saw it this morning and I was eyeing it up. I'm going to be honest with you. I was looking at it like it was Cap with a beard. Wow, bloody hell. I was. And then I saw on the screen above the price came up and it was 59.99 English pounds. What the fuck? Who's buying that? Who's buying that? I mean, when we came out of the cinema, all of them were gone. So people were buying it. But they may just have been put away because they were, you know. But I think that the first act of Doomsday is Incursion Palooza. All the universes being destroyed and then leaving us with the three that we have confirmed for Doomsday, which is the X-Men universe, the MCU that we are currently in, and what was the other universe?