Bring Her Back (ft. Danny & Michael Philippou)

0:14Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to a very special Empire podcast, spoiler special. We're bringing Bring Her Back back, folks, with this one. A few weeks ago, when Bring Her Back, the second film from Australian terror twins Danny and Michael Philippou hit cinemas, we released a Team Empire take where Ben Travis, Becky Dark and Harry Stainer did a big old deep dive into their thoughts and feelings about the movie. We didn't, at that point, have an interview with the Philippous, who are busy, busy guys, but we lived in hope and after a quick chat with a possessed hand, we got him! we got him Ben sat down with Danny and Michael on Zoom recently and now that the film is out on shiny discs and digital formats for you to be terrified and traumatised in the comfort of your own home here is that interview which answers pretty much all your burning questions about the movie and in case you haven't listened yet to the team Empartake to save you the bother of searching for it on your app I have included that after Ben's interview with the Philippus, which is amazing, by the way.

1:24Danny and Michael had already made a reputation for themselves with their YouTube shorts under the name Raka Raka, but with that one-two punch of Talk To Me and Bring Her Back, they have really announced themselves as two of the best modern horror directors around, able to provide haunting images and short, sharp shocks aplenty, but laced with a deep and profound psychological and emotional underpinning as well. Two quick things before we begin. They are twins, and that means they sound alike too. But Danny is the first of the brothers to speak in this. And even though they were both on Zoom with Ben, Michael has a little more digital interference when he speaks.

2:01So that should help you keep them separate as you listen. Also, this interview gets in to bring her back's major spoilers from the off. So as ever, if you haven't seen it, stop listening. See it, be that on DVD, Blu-ray or digital. and then come back. For the rest of you, enjoy.

2:47bring her back is an absolute banger and people loved it they got a huge response again so yeah how are you feeling uh about how it all went down uh it's so crazy like i i i wish i had the courage to watch it with an audience during the whole press tour thing because i didn't i still didn't have the guts to do it yeah i haven't watched it with an audience no way yeah so i've uh i've gotta yeah sit down and like process the whole thing and and then um and then like yeah one day i'll sit down and watch it properly but I haven't revisited it yet it's still like a tender thing or like yeah it's hard What about you Michael?

3:25Have you watched it with an audience yet? I watch like the like bits of it I could ever watch the whole thing and I don't know why either it's hard, even just watching anything with an audience we speak to other directors and they're excited by that and us maybe not so much yeah yeah it's too personal or something so uh but i am overwhelmed by the the response by um you know people who have watched it and and even people that have said that it's helped them deal with certain emotions and things like that like that's amazing that's amazing to hear and and seeing the the young actors and and sally be you know like the i would say the young actors to get recognized you know as as as talents and then sally as well to be seen in this different way is it's very rewarding uh on that as well so yeah i i am very very proud of that stuff so i want to talk through some of the big moments of the film and we begin with the some of the vhs ritual footage do i remember you saying it's one of you guys in that footage one of you guys had a cameo in that right well i actually i dressed up as a character uh i dressed up as the character that was recording it so uh all the actors were all like getting down and dirty and stuff and so then i i bleached my hair and my eyebrows and then i like had these blue contact lenses on and i dressed up like a weirdo as well and i just uh was like with them in it if that makes sense so like there's really funny footage of me recording behind the scenes so all the stuff that shot on the vhs camera was all me yeah and the first thing no i wouldn't count that as a cameo i want to i want to count as a cameo but i was yeah i'm there in spirit and and spirit's big deal in this film being there in spirit it strikes me that then really the kind of the proper opening of the story when we meet andy and piper you guys talked last time about the fact that this comes from quite a real place for you you have a friend whose sister is partially sighted and that push and pull of the independence, but also having somebody sort of describe the world to you and give you a better picture of the world than is actually the truth.

5:46All of that is in microcosm in that scene at the bus stop. We have Piper trying to have a bit of friendly chat with the girls at the bus stop and then them not being very nice about her and Andy lying to her about like, oh no, they liked you, whatever. it struck me on a rewatch how much of everything in the film comes down to that scene was it really hard to crack that moment to make sure that it was all in there at the beginning yeah and even down to like we we knew that I'm like uh that Piper can see these shapes and light and Andy's always trying to light up Piper's life in a way and so even down to the boss coming into frame and putting a shadow over Piper's face as she realizes that the girls are insulting her and then andy pulls her out of the dark so uh even even that sort of stuff is like uh metaphorically sort of representing the stuff that we're trying to to say and and and do and yeah so much comes down to like we try to pack as much stuff into each frame and each scene uh which is always like a really amazing fun challenge and so fun when you're when you're collaborating with everybody like all the different art department and and even the sound design and everything everyone's helping us represent those themes and tell those stories well and the script as well i think is an important part of that that it's the you know that's the scene that states the themes and and i say that yeah like getting that right in that process and then other artists bringing their you know uh vision to it and well and and leaning into that in their own ways or yeah it's awesome something that we see again in the relationship really early on with andy and piper is that little phrase that they have to each other grapefruits and we instinctively know what that means why grapefruit when did that word come up oh grapefruit my co-writer bill hinsman that's his code word with um his partner so like uh yeah yeah is that because they're always uh joking with each other and everything and so that's the sort of safe word and i i love that like anything that you can pull from real life to help build the characters and the scenes it just makes it feel more rich and more lived in unless phoned in or just like don't take from all these other films or try and take from real life as much as possible yeah do you guys have any kind of code word with each other was there ever anything you had growing up yeah like if I one day and be quiet my code word was shut the fuck up yeah I don't think we're that tender and special we had a rougher upbringing I think do you know shut the fuck up sometimes works sometimes it's all you need it always works all right or again aggressive texting to each other where on the set so we can't yell at each other in front of the cast and crew um then uh laura comes into the story and uh things get very dark very quickly i wanted to ask about the scene uh the funeral scene because you guys build in through a lot of the early part of the story um all these little ways in which laura is just pushing at the boundaries of what's comfortable of what's acceptable and andy in particular being the one who notices those like little transgressions that over the course of the film are going to become much much bigger one of the most upsetting ones is kiss your father andy when she's she's forcing him to kiss his dad's body at the funeral and really kind of pushing him into that but something again that comes through on a rewatch is that line that she says some people believe the body the the soul stays in the body for a long time after death and we come to realize she believes that so how did you kind of craft that moment because it has a different emphasis when you see it the second time around yeah like we knew that we wanted that to be a really massive psychological moment whereas like um like uh laura can just notice from a look or just through body language or like the smallest details uh what's going on with these people like like our whole entire skill set is this psychology and knowing how young people are sort of reacting to different situations and she knows what would help him in this moment and so she's got the same tools and she's using those to break him down so psychologically she's pushing him she knows he's uncomfortable she knows there's something there and uh this is her way to start like like slowly undoing his seams and his threads and then and then also at the same time like like laura does have a really strange and uncomfortable relationship with death like she's gone down the stark rabbit hole her mind is so polluted by this really uh you know this wrong way of grieving and like i see that we wanted to like uh translate some of the mythology of our of our you know our demonology that we designed in these moments as well.

10:36Because Laura's not being all bad or being all untruthful, even when she's having that DNM with Andy once they're drunk. She is open and honest during those moments as well. So she's still sharing parts of herself and her beliefs with him too. Because it's also, it is her pushing the boundaries in that moment, but you can feel her also thinking like, that's your dad and he's still there and you have a chance to say goodbye to him. There is something real behind that for her as well, I think. Yeah. And also for, even for Piper, you know, Piper would give anything in that moment to be able to see.

11:13And Andy would give anything in that moment to be blind. He can't look at him. He doesn't, he can't do it. And I think that's got to do with their relationship as well. His relationship with the dad compared to Piper's and what Piper didn't see. So that there, yeah, there's a lot that that's going on there under the surface, but yeah it is a real thing it's like this is your last chance to and laura knows that and laura knows that it is his last chance but he's he doesn't want to you know but even yeah we mirror that scene later in the pool shed with um you know laura and her she's got the corpse there as well and she's like forcing uh pipe to have this interaction with that body as well uh yeah it's just like uh trying to hit on so many different moments and themes and uh i like how how complicated especially once like developing the character fervor with even Sally Hawkins, like how much richer and real Laura became.

12:07It's a, that collaboration is everything to me. It's the most rewarding part of the whole process. I think is finding someone that goes that in depth. Like she lived and breathed it. We still text about Laura. We still like, we're still in contact. Yeah. Yeah. We're still in contact with Sally. Yeah. And that was another reason that was so stressed on talking to you as well is because like Sally hadn't seen the film yet. And like a part of me is like, oh my God, I don't want to let her down. Cause I know how open she, she was of us. And, and yeah, it was, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I'm having PTSD, but back to the stress.

12:41What are some of the thoughts that you guys have shared back and forth since finishing on the film then about the character, about Laura? Oh my God. I got Sally to send me her character notes and, and, and the journal and stuff. And I even, I have, I've got it somewhere in this thing. Like we went back and wrote the entire, well, I did anyway, the entire backstory of Laura building up to those, like to the events of the film. So I've got like Laura's diary and we've written out everything that's happened like before, during it and integrating a lot of, yeah, Sally's character notes that she had written down because her script was like a massive Bible.

13:19She had so many different references and so many different things. So I was like getting that from her, getting it sent and going through it. is that something that's just for you guys? Is that something that you'll ever put out there someday? Do you think? Yeah. I'm trying to figure out what to do. Cause I, I can't, there's so much of the mythology that I have purposefully left, like unsaid. Like I liked it, that the film is a glimpse into another world. And we have this, this website, black angel tapes, where you can visit the site, the Laura bought the, the, the tapes from. And we've got a bunch of law that's threaded in through there as well.

13:51Like maybe it's something that we released through that, or maybe it's something that, like honestly like i would love to do a novelization in the future or something but yeah uh yeah i'm excited about all things i've still not done with that world that that story still is living in my head yeah there's so much that laura does over the course of the film that really twists andy's head and it's so upsetting to watch the pissing the the the pissing in the jug and dunking it on on andy and all the little things that she says just to spin him one way and the other that is one of the most gut-wrenching parts of the film how did you come up with all the different ways that laura was gonna play with him i mean like looking at those uh like a textbook psychology and like and and knowing that like like again laura knows all of these things and she's making it like the most open and shut case like she knows that once wendy starts like looking into this thing that she's gonna have these answers and like oh look at this he's done this he's done this uh she's like like framing him in this really really elaborate way and like you said even those like those little micro little things that she's doing there again i just like uh slowly pinching at him poking at him and undoing him and it's like it's from day dot it's from even like before he's even met her and her not even wanting him at the house uh this is sort of like a plan b for uh laura she didn't want him in the house at all she's like okay well how do i get him out then and actually this will work to my advantage how do i make sure that he's never going to interact with her ever again uh uh yeah yeah so like um it's so yeah i like the exact motive like like exactly where it came from i don't know for like from the development process because it's been a few years but i know it's like a textbook psychology thing well i i'm not always a huge fan of um like letterbox like you know the pithy like one line letterbox reviews sometimes they they do my head in a bit but one really made me laugh for this which was it's absolutely diabolical to piss somebody else's pants oh yeah it really is it's pretty it's pretty horrifying and um again i like my hats off to sally for like committing to all of this sort of stuff like we were so sure she was able to say no when she read the script i we felt crazy that she responded to us uh yeah well of the stuff that kind of stays under the radar in the film you talked about hiding a lot of the mythology and just giving you little glimpses there's kind of one real shot where we see the demonic entity that's in oliver and it's in the reflection in the mirror but the mirror's fogged up but we see something with kind of horns red skin it's really freaky for that second what was it like designing these things and knowing that actually you weren't really gonna show it to anyone properly Hats off to the makeup team And you know Because a lot of effort goes into that And that poor actor that came You know did what was it like hours and hours In prosthetics and then comes on set At the end of the day for about 13 seconds And then We're like We're done We didn't want to like keep Show back to it It's like hinting in a different way So yeah a glimpse of it I always respect that in movies when it's like a lot of works are going into something and, you know, and it is hard to like pull it off, but not to, to over show or over use, like just flashes of it is like scary sometimes.

17:16So, or not even seeing it at all. So yeah, that was our idea for it. But yeah. There's another moment as well. When, when Laura, when Andy is seeing all of us standing outside, once he comes down after pipe has been hit, we have it in the reflection as well. Once the water's coming down, there's little glimpses at the demon there as well. trying to take a picture on his phone and briefly you see it don't you yeah yeah yeah yeah um it's and that's so fun like writing the backstories for the demonology and stuff is like and the mythology like i love that process so much it is uh such a fun part of the um the the writing process well something that we definitely do see is ollie chomping on a knife which is one of the most disturbing things uh in this film in in any film really um i i was going to ask you what it's like watching an audience respond to that but you haven't seen the film with an audience so but have you seen i have i have watched that scene i have i did i did pop in for that scene um yeah and it's so funny uh that uh depending on the audience i know that um i wasn't there for this moment but that moment where even oliver pulls out pulls his skin off while he's eating his hand uh that the audience like got up and applauded at beyond fest they were like cheering and on their feet applauding and i'm like i wish i watched it with that crowd that's crazy cool um that was for the hardcore horror fans you know that's a really hardcore horror audience yeah and again watching it a second time knowing it was coming it really stood out to me that you hear it before you see it obviously the camera is pulled away you're following andy but you start to hear the squelching and the squishing and the the the teeth on the knife um how did you know how to most effectively create that moment that's what i love about the sound design as well is um you know emma boarding young and and speaking with her that when he's looking through the cupboards and oliver's munching it in the background but it's it's masked by the you know it just sounds like the sound of the dishes then when he stops and it's still going it's like why does it sound like the dishes are still moving here why is there clinking and clamoring and then turning around and seeing it like that's i love that that little thing and um but yeah shooting it yeah you have a sorry you can talk about shooting it oh yeah but even on the sound design as well like how we recorded that sound like uh that i actually chewed on a knife for the sound so uh yeah so like yeah um having emma like shooting that part and then recording us yeah like me biting this wood and biting this table like she was just recording everything anything we could like do to create a sound that's like this isn't like a library sound effect this isn't like this is like as close to the real thing as you can get um and and then yeah like it's always about like coming in with not just one plan of executing a practical effect it's like you come in with three and so that's uh again like a very fun part of it like we molded and created his head that we could put this knife in.

20:17We had, you know, like a prop knife with the real actor and these magnetic teeth and these fake, like there's molds of his mouth. And like, so there's, yeah, like always shoot it three different ways and then find what the most powerful frames will be. You were talking about Sally Hawkins, incredible performance in this, and she's amazing all the way through the film. But for me, I think the standout on a rewatch was the scene where she, is confronted by Wendy. When Wendy really clocks, oh, things are really bad here. And they have that conversation in the hallway. And it goes from Laura's mask slipping a little bit to suddenly she just completely unravels.

20:59That is an incredible scene. What was it like seeing Sally Hawkins perform that when you were shooting? We had to shoot. So for Sally and for the actors as well, like because um sora it was her first time acting and so like building to those bigger scenes that come kind of later like as much as we could we shot kind of chronologically and so sally was so in the character that i knew when you know those days are coming up you get so fucking excited because you know sally delivers on everything and then delivering on being found out that that day uh every single take like you we did probably of the main one i don't know how many takes you did but everyone is fucking gold and in a way it's so torturous in the edit because everything is so fucking good it's like what is the best way to to um to to show it what's the best you know version of it so yeah every single time that she did it was the most like yeah and it warmed up as well it warmed up she like got caught up in the frenzy like each take it's like i think you can push this further like don't be ashamed or embarrassed and like even if it starts like stepping into camp don't even worry about it like like like this has like this like you've completely lost your mind at this moment there's no sanity left you're you're clinging on with every every part of you like begging for your life and for your daughter's life uh uh that she and then so like each each take got more and more frantic and then it was so scary towards the end of it to approach her between those takes because she was still at a 10 like crying while you're like telling her the direction for the next take that she'd be sobbing and looking at you and then she'd go back and then reset and redo this thing again it was electric and then what's hard is as well and how good of a performing she is is that it does start at a zero and go to a 10 so she has to start at that i'm i'm getting away with this you know and then build like slowly and then be caught out so even that as a performer to kind of reset that like each time it's like man incredible uh yeah so all the cast members It's like, it's crazy.

23:06And again, that's the moment where the, the whole film unravels at that point, the energy is a 10 from there on out. And the moment where then Laura rams the car into Wendy and Andy is just a huge jolt of energy. That's probably the main moment you guys get to unleash some of your carnage. Was it fun doing the like car crash stuff? Yeah. It was the best. It was the best. you know anytime you know you want like a practical stunt but anytime the practical stunt or the all the gore stuff it's shocking to watch but it's so fun to film like that's the fun that's the fun stuff to film and that's kind of like that's where we came from that's uh you know that's our roots so that that was awesome even the idea of putting the camera in the car in wendy's car so when it rams it it smashes the class onto it and it spins the car and then you see just the outline of her like in the like all that all those ideas yeah yeah it was like uh so yeah incredible it was so scary that we shot that road that we shot that stunt on even the movie it's public and so people can people just walk through because it's like part of a walking trail so some of the stuff like the car crash or oliver and his full makeup you're always afraid of someone like what the fuck are they thinking like what the hell's going on in this house yeah or leaking those footage there's no way to stop the public and um yeah but yeah anytime it's coming around violence or stunt work it's like how can we execute this in the most practical how can we make this like something that you've never seen before uh the challenge of it is so exciting and never never just relying on like a v effect there's always it's usually 90 practical 10 like with the computer what still shocks me immediately after that moment is that you kill Andy and it's such a quiet sad death being drowned in the puddle by Laura she's telling him you're okay you're okay it's so upsetting especially the first time I watched it I was like well Andy's coming back isn't he I'm waiting for the moment Andy comes back when did you decide you were going to kill Andy like 15 minutes before the end of the film it's in those drafting like once you're drafting and you're like following each beat from each character's perspective and like following through or how would this person react to this and what would they do in this moment and i like in my head there's just no way that laura would let them get away in that moment because for her in this extreme state she's in it would just be like she would just do anything in that moment and uh like and then death does come so unfairly and so brutal in real life like when you lose someone there is no bow tie ending for these people there's no ending to their story there's no there is no film ending for the for like like and that's like sort of like the headspace they were in when we're writing and stuff especially when you when you lose someone and you're in that headspace and it's like that just changes the tone of the script and then we lost someone again at the start of pre-production and then that changes the tone of even like how we were shooting things and executing things and so it was just like the whole film changed because of the circumstances that were that at the time of developing and shooting.

26:21And yeah, so we're feeling, when you're writing from a negative headspace, naturally you're going to write something pretty negative. But that feels more true life to me than him having that heroic thing. And I think his, for me, his arc has finished in that moment. Like he's had this honest conversation with Piper over the phone and she is going to hear it and that will help her. And even through death, his soul is consumed by Tari, this demon. And it speaks to Piper and helps her get away in different ways. Oliver's inhabited by all these different things. It's like Laura screwed up this ritual.

27:03And there's so many different parts of people that are inside this kid for that ending. And they all play a part in helping her get away and escape. something that did strike me on this second viewing maybe i'm onto nothing here but i was like that is strange is that all the way through the film we've heard kathy drowned in the pool when we have that little flashbacky moment at the end of the film when laura is in the pool we see kathy's body in the water but there's also a load of blood coming from kathy is there more to Kathy's death? Is there something else going on there? Or is it that she slipped, she hit her head, and then she drowned in the pool?

27:41What can you tell me? I mean, I think that you do hear that Kathy did love the rain, and she found it relaxing, the sound, the smell of it. And so in my head, she did go out there while it was raining, and she did slip, and she did hit her head. I don't think Laura was at all capable of murdering her daughter. I think the daughter was everything to her. so in my head there's no reality where Laura would have killed her daughter what's the past of that though of that version that she is coming to terms as she killed her but that was like a you explore every version when you're writing I guess in this one it was definitely yeah it was an accident and there was a comment that I read it was like if this is the best PSA for safety fencing around pools there's a hard one in that house all of this could have been avoided all of it i i well i i completely disagree with that i still think if kathy wanted to go to the pool she knows how to open that gate she's not like you should know yeah yeah yeah well we do end on this absolutely haunting final shot of kathy in the pool kathy's body in the pool laura kind of cradling the body it's so beautiful and so sad, so devastating.

29:00Was that always the final image of the film? And it strikes me that you end with them in a circle as well, and the film begins with a circle. How did you craft that ending shot? Well, yeah. To me, the whole film is about these never-ending grief cycle and also the cycles of abuse and what Andy's dad is to him, Laura is to Oliver and she's pulling this kid in and she's like, you have to break out of that cycle and like a piper finds the strength to do it and then oliver ends up having the strength to do it but i guess in his case the tragic part is is like that kid's still going to live with those scars for the rest of his life it's not uh uh one and done like that'll affect him forever he'll have that on those parts of his and his mind and his psyche and his body forever and and uh so laura doesn't break out of this circle like she has a chance to heal and to break out of this never-ending thing, but she's stuck there.

30:03It's her goal in a different way. She wants to be with her daughter again. She can't bring her daughter back, so she'll go with her daughter. That image is that culmination of everything, really. This is a story that will probably take the sadness out of it. You were doing the take and the police person goes in the pool with the light, and that's actually our producer and in the first take it was all beautiful and you know it's craning the body and the camera's going up and then producer Sam slips and she starts laughing at and like Sally's and then everyone like our first on the side of the thing is like sort of like trying not to laugh at it it just made it funny so it was so much stuff going around that that final result you'd never know from watching the final film yeah well congratulations on the film is is absolutely brilliant and michael are you uh editing the the death match wrestling duck at the moment is that what you're up to yeah yeah so um we're you know we've been doing this documentary for over for about three years now so and we've we've got all the footage now and we're uh editing it now and and and so hopefully that'll that'll come out the first half of next year sometime very very excited by it yeah and danny what are you writing is this your a third original horror film or are you back on the talk to me to beat this is our third original horror film that i'm working on at the moment and uh i like me and michael get back together start of next week so uh monday next week i'll be in the edit suite as well and we'll be working on that full time i just want to get a draft out for this so that my co-writer's got something to go on with and it's not no one's sitting dormant like let's make sure that the momentum is going on all these projects uh so yeah like i'm finishing my draft this week they're asking where the fuck is Talk To Me 2?

31:53I was guessing Ben's saying, is this Talk To Me 2 now? You mean you've done your thing? It's not, no, I'm still dangling Talk To Me 2 in front of A24, I've got another movie picked up. Oh, I can't wait to see the documentary, and yeah, I'm really excited for your next original as well. I mean, I am there for Talk To Me 2, but I know how amazing you guys can pull things off when you do your own original things, so So yeah, congratulations and hopefully catch you soon. Amazing. Thanks so much, Ben. Thanks for having us again. Okay, that was Ben talking to Danny and Michael Philippou. And now here is the Team Empire Take hosted once again by Ben.

32:36Enjoy if you haven't already. And if you have, enjoy again. Hello and welcome to the Empire Podcast spoiler special for Bring Her Back, a film so intense so traumatizing i think everybody needs a little bit of therapy after watching this one so we are here to guide you through our thoughts our feelings on this incredible but incredibly intense movie and i have two colleagues with me or should i say my two adoptive children that i have welcomed into my house with no sinister plans whatsoever i am joined by harry stainer why did you hesitate on stainer i don't know i don't know i'm scared of the children that have entered my house i have i'm too busy thinking of what terrible terrible things i'm going to do how i'm going to piss your pants at some point i look forward to it i i'm sure you do and i'm also joined by becky dark well i was excited to be here until you described me as one of your adoptive children and now i wonder what i have walked into don't worry everything is absolutely fine we're just going to have a little bit of a chat and then we're going to go to the swimming pool oh okay and it's going to be fine I've got inflatables I love swimming pools this is great I've got something to chew on in the freezer we're going to have a lovely lovely time so this is just going to be us for this spoiler special we don't have any interviews for this one this is just this is just going to be a big chat between the three of us but there is an incredible amount to well to chew on in this film it's hard to get around So I guess let's just kick it off with how do we all feel about the film?

34:15Harry, I know you were really excited about this one. You've been working with me for months now, and I know that this was one of your most anticipated films of the year. Did it live up to the billing? It lived up and then some. I, like you, am a massive Talk To Me fan. And I think I probably went in this with very high expectations in terms of I was like, there's a bar that they've got to live up to. and in my opinion, they exceeded it. I enjoy this more than Talk To Me and it is currently my favourite film I've seen this year. So, high praise indeed. I'm still traumatised. I saw it like three weeks ago and I just keep on thinking about it, which is a sign to me that I'm either traumatised or I enjoyed it.

34:58I'm not sure yet. It does linger. It is a film that lingers. What about you, Becky? How are you feeling on Bring Her Back? Huge fan. I really, really like it. I think I'm probably coming in slightly more lukewarm in that Talk to Me was like my film of that year. I absolutely loved it. Five stars, no notes. I revisited it a little while after I saw it the first time because I was like, it can't be that good. I must have these kind of overblown remembrances of it. And then, no, I rewatched it and I was like, no, no, no, it's as perfect as I remember. So again, I went in to bring her back with some pretty high expectations.

35:40And I'm really happy to say I loved it. I absolutely loved it. But the trauma is real. And it's just like, talk to me is scary and traumatizing and sad and tragic and, you know, like, gruey and brutal. but I still kind of come out of it feeling like energized and that kind of adrenaline. I didn't feel adrenaline from Bring Her Back. I just felt... Drained? Just like drained, yeah. But it's another remarkable piece of work and for a sophomore film, I mean, you know, what an absolute incredible pair the Philippou brothers are. Yeah, I think I'm in the same camp to you on this one and they're also a huge fan of Talk To Me I went to see that on general release and it ripped my head off that opening sequence of Talk to Me where it throws you into this really intense party scene and then takes you to an incredibly dark place really early on I just felt like pinned to the back of my chair by that and the whole film just had me in the palm of its hands so I had huge expectations for this and I also was seeing Bring Her Back a couple of months ago now because I did a big interview in Empire Magazine with the Philippou brothers.

37:00And so I was really excited to speak to them, but it was also like, I hope they've done it again because I'm going to have a big chat with them tomorrow. And also because Talk to Me was so promising and so invigorating. I felt so alive when I saw that film. And Bring Her Back, basically it did do it again for me. They are two for two in my eyes, like easily just some of the most exciting filmmakers out there, horror or otherwise at the moment. but it may be in my memory is just like a tiny tiny step below Talk To Me for me because of that wild party energy you get in their debut. There are moments of it here and there is absolutely a big frisson of energy that kind of kicked in for me towards the end of this film but it's a bit of a change of pace for them.

37:46They talked to me in that interview through a spooky hand and said that they were intentionally slowing down a little bit they were kind of terrified to slow down and to take a breath and to maybe curb some of those YouTube instincts that they had from early in their career where they feel like they have to throw a million things at you and keep you involved and just go, okay, we're just going to sit you with these characters for a while and let you just bed in with them. I mean, the YouTube side of it I always find interesting because Harry, you used to follow their career as YouTubers, as Raka Raka, before they became, oh my God, the incredible A24 horror directors.

38:27Yeah, they were fucking nuts back then as well. No, they used to do some wild stuff. They used to do wrestling videos. They used to do these very bizarre Ronald McDonald videos. And then you can see all of that in Talk To Me, I think. I think you can see that energy where you say about the party energy. Even towards the end of Talk To Me, that kind of rug pull ending that's a bit of a shocker. It feels like an evolution from a lot of their YouTube stuff while feeling a little bit more mature. and then I also think that this is almost them maturing even more where it doesn't feel the need to do a rug pull or it doesn't feel the need to just be insane.

39:02I think it goes for more of an overall feel of sadness and really lingers with you, especially towards the final act of this film. And I have even more respect for them as filmmakers. I know they're cool, like they could do cool stuff with a camera. But I just think the writing in this and how sad that final act of this film is, is just such an achievement. And I was just like, yeah, I've seen you mature from me watching these YouTube videos when I was like 14 to now this. I'm like, you guys fucking rule. Like this is such like cool, mature storytelling that maybe you can't see as much of the YouTube stuff in Bring Her Back, but it shows that they've evolved as filmmakers.

39:44Yeah, I really think this is an evolution for them and seeing them go from those crazy Ronald McDonald YouTube videos, like their YouTube is still there you can go and watch all of their stuff and it's bonkers I've only briefly dipped into it because of the ones that you've told me about but yeah their evolution into this film in particular I think is kind of astonishing and the thing that blows my mind it totally makes sense to me that their YouTube background means they can pull off yeah crazy camera moves and big shocking moments and you know give you those big punchy horror sequences the thing that does really catch me by surprise as you know young filmmakers who have now made two features is how they craft these stories that are so full of pain and know how to take these characters that they create and really drive them into the like core of whatever pain those characters are feeling did you feel the pain on this one becky oh god did i both physical and emotional.

40:48I mean, there is some of the most horrific trauma-driven, grief-driven emotion at the absolute core of this film. And it just, it runs through it like a seam. And you get that from so many different directions as well. So it's not only the fact that Laura, the foster mother that her character has lost a daughter it's not only that Andy and Piper have lost their father there's this kind of institutional trauma and institutional grief that runs through this film as well kind of touching on stuff from like the foster system and stuff like that and it just feels like from every angle there is this dread like absolutely suffused through the film and then if you're talking about pain you've got stuff like these poor little buggers kind of getting punched in the face in the sleep or chewing on knives and tables um or like oh my goodness the moment so I've watched it twice and the first time as always with a film like it's just such an assault both kind of emotionally and um with the kind of like graphic graphic violence that's on screen um and the first time like i say as with every film you're sort of just trying to process it you're just keeping up you know you're figuring out what's going on the second watch the bit that really pushed me over the edge and almost made me physically wretch is just after oliver bites down on the table and then he like bites into his own arm and peels a long strip of his own skin like off of his own arm and just like chows down on it.

42:41I was like, I'm not okay. This is not okay. I don't know if this is a metaphor for the Foster system. I don't know or whether the Philippou brothers are just pressing my buttons and trying to make me feel unwell. But either way, it is working for me. So yeah, I mean, it just, they are so, so good at crafting these set pieces, these surprises this momentum throughout their films and in fact I've had conversations with people who say that the momentum throughout bring her back is better than talk to me so people who sort of say that actually after that initial kind of big sort of party energy of talk to me it does dip slightly I don't personally agree with that or at least if it does dip I don't find that an issue I still enjoy it and I still ride that wave towards the end.

43:38But I can kind of see that the momentum through Bring Her Back is there. And even kind of through these slight peaks of those really traumatic set pieces, you've got this sort of suffusion of the horror and the dread all the way through it. yeah so I mean it's just so effective on all levels from all directions yeah I mean one of the things I love about the Philippou brothers across these two films is the level of chaos but also the level of control that they have and they talked in that interview I did with them about the structure of bring her back they wanted it to be like a snowball but it just builds and builds and builds and builds and builds compared to talk to me which had these bigger sort of highs and lows and peaks and troughs and sudden jolts.

44:31Obviously, there are some kind of jolting moments across Bring Her Back, but it is a slower burn. It does build as it goes on. So I think let's kind of take it piece by piece. And let's begin with Andy and Piper, who really, you know, rightly, there is a lot of Sally Hawkins chat around this film. We will absolutely be talking about Sally Hawkins in this film. But I didn't know going into this that the core of it was going to be this relationship between Andy, a 17-year-old kid played by Billy Barrett, and Sora Wong as his little sister Piper, who is partially sighted. And that is actually sort of the beginning of this film for the Philippous.

45:11They have a family friend who is partially sighted and was going through this situation where she felt that she wanted a bit more independence, but people were sort of scared to give her that independence. She was relying on other people's perception of the world to guide her into the world and she kind of wanted to try and navigate that and that sort of began this story for them i think it's really significant that at the core of this film made by a pair of brothers who when you talk to them they are absolutely a philippo hive mind they are two but one finishing each other's sandwiches and like ripping each other's sandwiches to shreds and then throwing the sandwiches at each other and all of that uh but to make a film that is so much about siblings i thought was really significant what did you guys make of the andy and piper sibling relationship i as a sibling as many of us are um i thought the way they captured these two as a pair of brother and sister was so lovely and i think the shorthand of like i think they do so much with the relationship of just the line grapefruit between the two of them and I feel like that gives you so much of who they are as a brother and sister and from that like moment I think it's within the first five minutes they say that and how that comes up again and again throughout it I just feel like it spoke so much to like how close they are and just that banter that they also have throughout and I just thought the whole time I wanted to wrap them in bubble wrap because of the second that they go into Sally Hawkins house I was like no no no I know something awful is going to happen to both of you and you're just so adorable as a pair, despite their flaws.

46:51So yeah, I think they are... Is it possible for the film to have four MVPs and they're the four key members of the cast? Because I think everyone in this is just wonderful. Yeah, I mean, the performances across the board are incredible. Yeah, Billy Barrett, Sora Wong, Sally Hawkins, and Jonah Ren Phillips as Oliver. Just like, outstanding casting. The way that they all play off each other, the way that they all kind of embody their roles and how integral that is to the message of the film incredible the grapefruit thing i think is great because you just pick it up contextually of what that means it's the new malala from book smarts yeah they're like they have their code word of like if i say malala that means you got to believe me yeah grapefruit also being just this random word of trust but But it's subverted here, right?

47:41Because you get these moments where, especially with Piper being partially sighted, she has to trust Andy so intensely. and he doesn't only you know take her by the arm and guide her around to make sure she's not getting hit by cars or whatever he is literally describing and explaining the world around her to piper so the girls at the bus stop whether they're nice or not what they look like the um whether uh oliver is smiling at her or not and you get this real sort of beautiful subtlety and complexity about how Andy is always trying to protect Piper from the darkness and the dangers of the world and she says to him at one point like you don't have to make everything nice for me and he's like I know but he keeps doing it and so the grapefruit thing is and we pick it up and it's incredible directing and it's an incredible sort of performative shorthand that we know that that means they're being honest with each other without them ever having to explicitly tell us that.

48:59But also you immediately start seeing where that he's using that to get out of things, right? So he doesn't want to look at his father at the funeral. And she says, you know, how does he look and he says oh he looks fine and then obviously laura is kind of sally hawkins is laura is is using this to um drive a wedge between this very tight very trustworthy uh brother sister dynamic and you can see the the sort of the heartbreak and and confusion on piper's face when she says but you said grapefruit right and it's like and you're like yeah you dude you did you said grapefruit She has to believe 100 % that grapefruit is grapefruit because if grapefruit is not grapefruit, what does grapefruit even mean?

49:47Exactly. And that is such a clever way of showing that there are these cracks that come from Andy either trying to protect himself or protect Piper, but is actually undermining their relationship. As you say as well, you've got this really tight relationship between the siblings. And, you know, we love their dynamic together. there is a very warm dynamic, but we also feel incredible sympathy for these two because they lose their dad really early into this film. You suddenly have these two kids who have no parents. That's such a tragic circumstance for them to be in. And there is some very personal stuff I know for the Philippus that they poured into that scene where they find their dad dead in the shower.