Bring Her Back: The Team Empire Take

0:14Hello and welcome to the Empire podcast spoiler special for Bring Her Back, a film so intense, so traumatizing. I think everybody needs a little bit of therapy after watching this one. So we are here to guide you through our thoughts, our feelings on this incredible but incredibly intense movie. And I have two colleagues with me, or should I say my two adoptive children that I have welcomed into my house with no sinister plans whatsoever. I am joined by Harry Stainer. Why did you hesitate on Stainer? I don't know. I don't know. I'm scared of the children that have entered my house. I'm too busy thinking of what terrible, terrible things I'm going to do, how I'm going to piss your pants at some point.

1:03I look forward to it. I'm sure you do. And I'm also joined by Becky Dark. Well, I was excited to be here until you described me as one of your adoptive children. And now I wonder what I have walked into. Don't worry, everything is absolutely fine. We're just going to have a little bit of a chat. And then we're going to go to the swimming pool. Oh, okay. And it's gonna be fine. I've got inflatables. I love swimming pools. This is great. I've got something to chew on in the freezer. We're going to have a lovely, lovely time. So this is just going to be us for this spoiler special. We don't have any interviews for this one.

1:35This is just going to be a big chat between the three of us. But there is an incredible amount to, well, to chew on in this film. It's hard to get around. So I guess let's just kick it off with how do we all feel about the film? Harry, I know you were really excited about this one. And you've been working with me for months now. And I know that this was one of your most anticipated films of the year. Did it live up to the billing? It lived up and then some. I, like you, am a massive Talk To Me fan. And I think I probably went in this with very high expectations in terms of I was like, there's a bar that they've got to live up to.

2:13And in my opinion, they exceeded it. I enjoyed this more than Talk To Me. And it is currently my favorite film I've seen this year. So high praise indeed. I'm still traumatized. I saw it like three weeks ago and I just keep on thinking about it, which is a sign to me that I'm either traumatized or I enjoyed it. I'm not sure yet. It does linger. It is a film that lingers. What about you, Becky? How are you feeling on Bring Her Back? Huge fan. I really, really like it. I think I'm probably coming in slightly more lukewarm in that Talk To Me was like my film. of that year. I absolutely loved it. Five stars, no notes.

2:54I revisited it a little while after I saw it the first time because I was like, it can't be that good. I must have these kind of overblown remembrances of it. And then no, I rewatched it and I was like, no, no, no, it's as perfect as I remember. So again, I went in to bring her back with some pretty high expectations. And I'm really happy to say I loved it. I absolutely loved it. But the trauma is real and it's just like talk to me is scary and traumatizing and sad and tragic and you know like gruey and brutal um but I still kind of come out of it feeling like energized and that kind of adrenaline I didn't feel adrenaline from bring her back I just felt drained just like drained yeah But it's another remarkable piece of work.

3:50And for a sophomore film, I mean, you know, what an absolute incredible pair the Philippou brothers are. Yeah, I think I'm in the same camp to you on this one. And they're also a huge fan of Talk to Me. I went to see that on general release and it ripped my head off. That opening sequence of Talk to Me where it throws you into this really intense party scene and then takes you to an incredibly dark place really early on. I just felt like pinned to the back of my chair by that. And the whole film just had me in the palm of its hands. So I had huge expectations for this. And I also was seeing Bring Her Back a couple of months ago now because I did a big interview in Empire Magazine with the Philippou brothers.

4:34And so I was really excited to speak to them. But it was also like, I hope they've done it again because I'm going to have a big chat with them tomorrow. And also because Talk To Me was so promising and so invigorating. I felt so alive when I saw that film. And Bring Her Back, basically it did do it again for me. They are two for two in my eyes, like easily just some of the most exciting filmmakers out there, horror or otherwise at the moment. But it may be in my memory is just like a tiny, tiny step below Talk To Me for me because of that wild party energy you get in their debut. There are moments of it here, and there is absolutely a big frisson of energy that kind of kicked in for me towards the end of this film, but it's a bit of a change of pace for them.

5:20They talked to me in that interview, ooh, talked to me through a spooky hand, and said that they were intentionally slowing down a little bit. They were kind of terrified to slow down and to take a breath and to maybe curb some of those YouTube instincts that they had from early in their career, where they feel like they have to throw a million things at you and keep you involved and just go, okay, we're just going to sit you with these characters for a while and let you just bed in with them. I mean, the YouTube side of it I always find interesting because Harry, you used to follow their career as YouTubers, as Raka Raka, before they became, oh my God, the incredible A24 horror directors.

6:02Yeah, they were fucking nuts back then as well. No, they used to do some wild stuff. They used to do wrestling videos. They used to do these very bizarre Ronald McDonald videos. and then you can see all of that in Talk To Me I think I think you can see that energy where you say about the party energy even to like towards the end of Talk To Me of that kind of rug pull ending that's a bit of a shocker it feels like an evolution from a lot of their YouTube stuff while feeling a little bit more mature and then I also think that this is almost them maturing even more where it doesn't feel the need to do a rug pull or it doesn't feel the need to just be insane.

6:36I think it goes for more of an overall feel of sadness and like really lingers with you, especially towards the final act of this film. And I have even more respect for them as filmmakers. I know they're cool, like they could do cool stuff with the camera. But I just think the writing in this and how sad that final act of this film is, is just such an achievement. And I was just like, yeah, I've seen you mature from me watching these YouTube videos when I was like 14 to now this. I'm like, you guys fucking rule. This is such cool, mature storytelling that maybe you can't see as much of the YouTube stuff in Bring Her Back, but it shows that they've evolved as filmmakers.

7:18Yeah, I really think this is an evolution for them, and seeing them go from those crazy Ronald McDonald YouTube videos, like their YouTube is still there. You can go and watch all of their stuff, and it's bonkers. I've only briefly dipped into it because of the ones that you've told me about. But yeah, their evolution into this film in particular, I think is kind of astonishing. And the thing that blows my mind, it totally makes sense to me that their YouTube background means they can pull off crazy camera moves and big shocking moments and give you those big punchy horror sequences. The thing that does really catch me by surprise as young filmmakers figures who have now made two features, is how they craft these stories that are so full of pain and know how to take these characters that they create and really drive them into the core of whatever pain those characters are feeling.

8:16Did you feel the pain on this one, Becky? Oh, God, did I? Both physical and emotional. I mean, there is some of the most horrific trauma-driven, grief-driven emotion at the absolute core of this film. And it just, it runs through it like a seam. And you get that from so many different directions as well. So it's not only the fact that Laura, the foster mother, that her character has lost a daughter. It's not only that Andy and Piper have lost their father. There's this kind of institutional trauma and institutional grief that runs through this film as well, kind of touching on stuff from like the foster system and stuff like that.

9:06and it just feels like from every angle there is this dread like absolutely suffused through the film and then if you're talking about pain you've got stuff like these poor little buggers kind of getting punched in the face in the sleep or chewing on knives and tables or like oh my goodness the moment so I've watched it twice and the first time, as always with a film, like it's just such an assault, both kind of emotionally and with the kind of like graphic, graphic violence that's on screen. And the first time, like I say, as with every film, you're sort of just trying to process it. You're just keeping up, you know, you're figuring out what's going on.

9:54The second watch, the bit that really pushed me over the edge and almost made me physically wretch is just after Oliver bites down on the table and then he bites into his own arm and peels a long strip of his own skin off of his own arm and just chows down on it. I was like, I'm not okay. This is not okay. I don't know if this is a metaphor for the Foster system. I don't know or whether the Philippou brothers are just pressing my buttons and trying to make me feel unwell, but either way, it is working for me. So yeah, I mean, it just, they are so, so good at crafting these set pieces, these surprises, this momentum throughout their films.

10:47And in fact, I've had conversations with people who say that the momentum throughout Bring Her Back is better than Talk To Me. So people who sort of say that actually after that initial kind of big sort of party energy of talk to me, it does dip slightly. I don't personally agree with that. Or at least if it does dip, I don't find that an issue. I still enjoy it and I still, you know, ride that wave towards the end. But I can kind of see that the momentum through Bring Her Back is there. and even kind of through these slight peaks of those really traumatic set pieces, you've got this sort of suffusion of the horror and the dread all the way through it.

11:35Yeah, so I mean, it's just so effective on all levels from all directions. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I love about the Philippou brothers across these two films is the level of chaos, but also the level of control that they have. And they talked in that interview I did with them about the structure of Bring Her Back. They wanted it to be like a snowball, but it just builds and builds and builds and builds and builds. Compared to Talk To Me, which had these bigger sort of highs and lows and peaks and troughs and sudden jolts. Obviously, there are some kind of jolting moments across Bring Her Back, but it is a slower burn.

12:11It does build as it goes on. So I think let's kind of take it piece by piece And let's begin with Andy and Piper, who really, you know, rightly, there is a lot of Sally Hawkins chat around this film. We will absolutely be talking about Sally Hawkins in this film. But I didn't know going into this that the core of it was going to be this relationship between Andy, a 17-year-old kid played by Billy Barrett, and Sora Wong as his little sister Piper, who is partially sighted. and that is actually sort of the beginning of this film for the Philippous they have a family friend who is partially sighted and was going through this situation where she felt that she wanted a bit more independence but people were sort of scared to give her that independence she was relying on other people's perception of the world to guide her into the world and she kind of wanted to to try and navigate that and that sort of began this story for them I think it's really significant that the core of this film made by a pair of brothers who when you talk to them they are absolutely a philippo hive mind they are two but one finishing each other's sandwiches and like ripping each other's sandwiches to shreds and then throwing the sandwiches at each other and all of that uh but to make a film that is so much about siblings i thought was really significant.

13:35What did you guys make of the Andy and Piper sibling relationship? As a sibling, as many of us are, I thought the way they captured these two as a brother and sister was so lovely. And I think the shorthand of like, I think they do so much with the relationship of just the line grapefruit between the two of them. And I feel like that gives you so much of who they are as a brother and sister. And from that moment, I think it's within the first five minutes they say that and how that comes up again and again throughout it i just feel like it spoke so much like how close they are and just that banter that they also have throughout and i just thought the whole time i wanted to wrap them in bubble wrap because of the second that they go into sally hawkins house i was like no no no i know something awful is going to happen to both of you and you're just so adorable as a pair um despite their flaws so yeah i i think they are is it is it possible for the film to have four mvps and they're the four key members of the cast because I think everyone in this is just wonderful.

14:36Yeah, I mean, the performances across the board are incredible. Yeah, Billy Barrett, Sora Wong, Sally Hawkins, and Jonah Wren Phillips as Oliver. Just, like, outstanding casting. The way that they all play off each other, the way that they all kind of embody their roles and how integral that is to the message of the film. Incredible. The grapefruit thing, I think, is great because you just pick it up contextually of what that means. It's the new Malala from Booksmarts. Yeah, yeah. They have their code word of like, if I say Malala, that means you got to believe me. Grapefruit also being just this random word of trust.

15:12But it's subverted here, right? Because you get these moments where, especially with Piper being partially sighted, she has to trust Andy so intensely. intensely and he doesn't only you know take her by the arm and guide her around to make sure she's not getting hit by cars or whatever he is literally describing and explaining the world around her to piper so the girls at the bus stop whether they're nice or not what they look like the um whether Oliver is smiling at her or not. And you get this real sort of beautiful subtlety and complexity about how Andy is always trying to protect Piper from the darkness and the dangers of the world.

16:08And she says to him at one point, like, you don't have to make everything nice for me. And he's like, I know, but he keeps doing it. and so the grapefruit thing is and we pick it up and it's incredible directing and it's an incredible sort of performative shorthand that we know that that means they're being honest with each other without them ever having to explicitly tell us that but also you immediately start seeing where that he's using that to get out of things right so he doesn't want to look at his father at the funeral and she says you know how does he look and he says oh he looks fine and then obviously laura is kind of sally hawkins is laura is is using this to um drive a wedge between this very tight very trustworthy uh brother sister dynamic and you can see the the sort of the heartbreak and and confusion on piper's face when she says but you said grapefruit right and it's like and you're like yeah you did you did you said grapefruit she has to believe 100 that grapefruit is grapefruit because if grapefruit is not grapefruit what does grapefruit even mean exactly and that is such a clever way of showing that there are these these cracks that come from Andy either trying to protect himself or protect Piper um but is actually undermining their relationship as you say as well you've got this really tight relationship between the siblings and you know we love their dynamic together it's a very warm dynamic but we also feel incredible sympathy for these two because they lose their dad really early into this film you suddenly have these two kids who have no parents that's such a tragic circumstance for them to be in and there is some very personal stuff I know for the Philippus that they poured into that scene where they find their dad dead in the shower that becomes a huge sort of symbol through the rest of the film in terms of how andy's scared to go in the shower and he can't bring himself to go into the shower and we'll get into this a little bit later on but this whole thing of water being maybe a bit of a bridge to the other side but we find these two characters in such dire circumstances and we only want the best for them and that is where laura swoops in the sally hawkins character the foster mother um who, yeah, she's not going to win Mother of the Year, I think it's fair to say.

18:40No, probably not. And what's interesting is that she, you know, functionally through the care system has a role to play. We have to wait until Andy is 18 so that he can have custody of Piper. We know, obviously, now that Laura has these intentions for Piper to bring her daughter Kathy back in Piper's body, but also Laura can see these fractures in the relationship between the siblings and can exploit that and try and drive a wedge between these two which is so fucking evil. It's so... The gaslighting in this film was like so stressful to watch. The way that she's pouring piss over Andy in the night.

19:24The peak gaslighting was a lot. It was horrific. It's such a horrible thing to do and how much she's kind of twisting everything he's saying. I could not handle that. Maybe more so than the knife to the teeth. I completely agree. There are moments that Sally Hawkins delivers. There are lines that she delivers in these moments where my toes curled. And, you know, I talk about getting a bit wretchy when Oliver's sort of biting his own arm and stuff. But there are a couple of moments that really stick in my mind. The one is where she's in the hospital Andy's been admitted after having this episode as she kind of sort of says, you know, she says basically you've had this kind of psychotic break and so he's gone into hospital and she's sitting there and she says, oh, well, don't you think that you're worried about Piper going out in the rain because your father died in the shower when I killed him?

20:19And then he goes, what? What? And she goes, because your father died in the shower. And you're like, what? How dare you? Why would you say that? Why would you say that? And like the just absolute like blankness of it and the way that Sally Hawkins delivers that line, the way that it kind of like runs in, I had to skip back. Like the second time I watched it was at home. I had to skip back because I was like, I knew I'd heard that when I saw it in the cinema. Yeah, it was like the film gas lit me. And the delivery is so perfect. And then there's another bit, a little bit later on, where Wendy, the woman who kind of works in the foster care service, who has placed Andy and Piper with Laura.

21:03Andy says to her at one point, he's like, did you do any checks? And I'm like, great question, Andy. Valid, valid question. But so Wendy's around there and Laura's showing her the bedrooms and stuff, shows her into Andy's bedroom. And she says, those are the weights. He works out when he's angry. which is most of the time and then she goes the sheets are dry for once and it's just like oh my god and these these like you're so right there are these huge sort of bombastic moments where you've got children breaking their teeth because they're chewing on tables and literal carving knives but sally hawkins delivers some of the most gut punch moments in this film for me where my toes are curling just through those little subtle, almost like subtle voce kind of like, you can just pick them out, but they are devastating.

22:03Also, I was going to say about the scene in the hospital was like, I like that that's kept like kind of ambiguous where you're like, wait, is she just gaslighting him still? Or is she, did she actually kill his dad? Do we think that she had some involvement? Because we see as the film goes on how extreme the lengths that she's willing to go to are already the fact that she is considering this ritual that she's seen on some fucked up VHS tape that makes the tape from Ring look like a cozy family movie, makes it look like a John Hughes favorite. And yeah, she's on an absolute murder spree by the end.

22:38We know that she is willing to do this stuff and she's thrilled to have found this perfect candidate for the ritual in Piper. This is why. So do we think she did have involvement in killing off their dad? Oh, 100 % she killed him. 100 % Harry. This is why, because Piper is so perfect, Laura keeps saying it herself, right? She keeps saying like, you're so perfect. You know, Kathy had long dark hair. She was part blind, you know, that's kind of how she words it. And, you know, she was so perfect. She was so beautiful. And she's sort of doing it like, well, she's putting Kathy's jumper on Piper and sort of stroking her face.

23:19Like, there's no way that that's coincidence. She made that happen. But do you know what I always think? I hate that I feel sorry for her while she's doing all that because I'm like, you are evil. But there was a part of me that was like, you're just full of grief. No, but of course. And she's fully just lost in that grief. I think you do really see the parent that she once was. Absolutely. Even in just the way that she treats Piper because she's treating Andy like absolute dog shit. but Piper she is doting on her as if she is Kathy and so I think through that interaction we see the parent that Sally Hawkins could have been again she's Paddington's mum she's Willy Wonka's mum we have seen her in so many like lovely mum roles and so we already come with baggage of like who she might have been as audience members and so seeing how badly that is twisted by what she's been through.

24:17Knowing how monstrous that is, it does give you sympathy for her because you're like, what you must be going through to be doing the things you're doing now, the pain you must be feeling, is off the charts. Of course. That scene where her and Andy sit back to back after the father's funeral and they're kind of talking about, they're talking openly about their grief and what they've been through. And she says, I would give anything to hear her call me mum one more time. And you just realise, you're like, that isn't hyperbole. It's not, that's not a throwaway comment. She would do anything and she is doing that.

24:59It's like the one moment she's not being manipulative in maybe the whole film. But I also think that whole scene of them drinking, although it is manipulative in some way, I do feel like she lets her guard down a bit. And weirdly, as much as I do not approve of underage people drinking at all, I think that scene is weirdly quite lovely in kind of a bizarre way because it feels like maybe they have got this fun home again as this weird little family. And then obviously very quickly after we realize that's not the case. But it's just a really lovely moment in otherwise quite a grim tale, I'd say.

25:34Yeah, I think that moment really the bit at the back of your mind is like, hey, you as a parent should not be condoning this. I know these kids have had a hard day. They've had their dad's funeral. they still shouldn't be getting trashed with you but the actual substance of the scene is more heartwarming it's the moment where you feel like you can breathe a little bit in this film and it's the moment I think that harks most back to talk to me energy wise the high energy I was going to say were you waiting for something bad to happen in that scene a little bit because of talk to me being imprinted in my brain I was like someone's going to go nuts because they're all drinking and something bad's going to happen The rule of talk to me is like the more fun it gets, the more horrible it's about to get any second from now.

26:17But we're talking about moments where maybe Laura either lets her mask slip or is being more open. I think what's interesting, I haven't rewatched this yet, but I think even looking back on it with prior knowledge now, there are moments in the funeral that feel like she's maybe just being fucked up and overstepping her bounds in her role there. But the way that she's telling Andy, like, kiss your father, kiss your father, the soul can stay in the body long after death. We know that she truly believes that because she has Kathy in the freezer. She is trying to preserve Kathy's soul in her body.

26:57And so there are moments that feel like she's just being weird and overbearing and projecting her own grief onto these kids. but we also then, by the end of the film, understand she truly believes that their dad is still in his body and will experience that kiss from his son because he's still in there. So that is also, you know, a bit of a mask off moment, but that is disguised as her being like the creepy foster mother. There's something she says about like, it's custom. She keeps saying like, it's custom. And he's like, no, it's not. Which is not. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe one custom, but apparently not one that I've heard of or one that he's heard of.

27:45Again, a bad power dynamic there because she is just being like, well, I'm older. I can tell you what's a custom. I've been through stuff, so believe me. That's absolutely right. And also when she kind of holds him and she says, I've got you, I've got you. And it's like, that breaks my heart because you absolutely haven't. No. You haven't got him. and you're pushing his buttons and you're gaslighting him and you are provoking him because you've got this agenda, because you've got this kind of long game that you're playing, right? And so all of these little manipulations and provocations are all towards this long game of she needs him out of the picture so that she can have Piper to herself.

28:33And the fact that she is pushing Andy to this extremely traumatic action that he has no desire to do and there is that kind of those are the moments where I actually lose the sympathy or the empathy for Laura's character because I would say that I probably have sympathy for her through most of it but there are so many points where she undermines my sympathy she's really testing me and she has no space for anybody else's grief. It's all wrapped up in hers. I mean, let's get into one of the biggest things about this film, which is it's not really a reveal of what Laura is trying to do. In that sort of snowball structure, there's no twist moment of like, ah, actually I'm doing this.

29:23How early on did you guys clock what Laura's plan was? Because I think to me, I said this to you in the office a couple of weeks ago, Harry, Bring Her Back, great hooky title, has the same sort of rhythm as Talk To Me, it's a little catchy phrase. It also tells you what the film is. She is trying to bring her back and I had that moment actually very early on of like oh the ritual is to bring your daughter back in Piper. But it's good in a way that the film doesn't try and play that as a twist reveal because it kind of just lets you get there on your own. So how quickly did you guys figure where this film was going to be going.

30:01I almost think it's quite funny because I think it plays with you knowing where it's going because when they first get to the house, a lot of the interactions between Laura and the two kids are kind of played for laughs. Like she's taking a selfie to Andy. She's kind of like, oh, he's not really in the photo and stuff like that. So I think it's messing with your expectations because it knows that you know she's evil. So it's like, we're going to have fun with you before shit starts to get really fucked up. and I really enjoyed that because so many of these horror films go in with the kind of like, oh, surprise, she's evil.

30:35And this film is like, you know that going in, so we're going to play with that. We're going to have fun. We know that you know that she's evil, so let's, yeah, we're all on the same playing field here. What about you, Becky? Yeah, I think it was probably the same scene that you're describing, Harry, is when they first enter the house because the title Bring Her Back, you find out almost immediately when um andy sees the the rug is like taped down and he says like oh is that for piper and she says no that's for my daughter kathy she's blind and he says oh like is she here and she says no she's passed and you go all right okay i got it i got it i see i see She's fucking crazy.

31:19I see what we're doing, yeah. But you're absolutely right. Like, it's not like that is like a fudge, like a mistake, right? It's not, that is entirely intentional. Nobody would say, I don't think, like, oh, it was so obvious so early on what was going on. It's like, yeah, it was, but that's the point. That is what they're playing for. You're absolutely right. They are using that as the, maybe even the moment that they push that snowball down the hill. Right. Right? And the moment the snowball gets bigger, if we're sticking with a snowball, maybe the point where the snowball maybe gets like stick arms and an additional snowball to the head, we're making it into a snowman now, is when you realize quite what's happening with Oliver.

32:11You know, something's fucked up with Oliver, who actually is Connor, this other kid who is also roped into Laura's scheme. And let's try and break down what we think the law is here because they kind of drip feed you the law. They have spoken about how they have a full idea of exactly what's going on. There is a lot more of the VHS footage than we actually see in the film. I want it. I don't know. I can't remember which one of them it is. I think it might be Danny. One of them is in that footage. One of them has like a cameo in that SCSI VHS footage. And yeah, but they just place little bits of it in the film.