Daredevil: Born Again s2 e7

0:00Chris Hewitt:Hey everyone, it's Chris Hewitt here, just jumping in real quick ahead of this Daredevil Born Again Season 2 Episode 7 Spawner Special to explain a couple of things. First, it's a little bit late. That is down to me. I was away at the weekend and wasn't able to give this the editorial focus that it needed until I got back. Why did it need editorial focus? Well, we explain in the show itself, but just to give you a little bit more context, consue text. this is a shorter spoiler special than usual that was not the plan the plan was to record this as usual in a studio for about 45 minutes to an hour there was a lot to discuss in this episode but there were circumstances beyond our control as you will hear we ended up doing this not in a studio but in a meeting room which was less than ideal so i had to deal with that from an editing standpoint that took a little bit of time and also because someone else was in usually in the meeting room we had to curtail our recording session so we went back and forth on this should we wait until next week the finale to discuss episode 7 and 8 together should we skip a week essentially and in the end we felt no that this spoiler special it is a fun discussion and that this spoiler special is better than no spoiler special at all So we hope that you will forgive the circumstances.

1:24Chris Hewitt:We hope you will forgive the sound quality. I've worked on it, but it's still not quite as good as I would like. But it is a really fun and fascinating discussion between myself and James Dyer and Amon Warman. And I hope you enjoy it. There you go. Cue music.

1:57Chris Hewitt:Hello, Pod. I'm Chris Hewitt, and welcome to a very unusual Daredevil Born Again Season 2 spoiler special. I am joined not in a Pod booth, but in a meeting room by two colleagues of such lethal cunning. You know, this city needs you, Amon Warman. I think so, too. Hello. and this city needs you, James Tyre I'm not sure it does I've been doing this, this is taking me back to 2012 when we first started cobbling together podcast episodes in a meeting room and that's basically what this is so I can think of it as a celebration I don't know, your memory, you remember Budapest I remember Budapest very differently because we always had a studio the only time we've ever done a podcast round, it wasn't even a podcast was the very first ranking which was Chris Nolan, which we recorded in a meeting room huddled around a phone and the sound quality was shit but don't worry folks i'm gonna use all my powers all my sonic abilities to make this sound all right basically we had a meeting room booked uh not a meeting room a studio room booked and then uh events have conspired against us at the 11th hour to die festus of that um of that studio and so here we are we're improvising wildly which is a little bit like Matt Murdock, am I right in this episode of Daredevil Born Again?

3:21Chris Hewitt:I had a whole thing planned I had a whole thing planned I was going to do what I normally do when a major character carks it in an MCU show and I was going to sing a version of Simon and Garfunkel's The Sound of Silence and tell the lyrics for Daniel Blake Daniel Blake! because he's finally shuffled off this mortal coil and I've been completely thrown so I thought we'd maybe, I don't know, what do you want to talk about? Do you want to talk about Matt Murdock? Winging it? I shouldn't be hitting the table either. You'd be mindful of that, Mr. Demonstrative Hands. That is my name. Yes, yes. Around the office.

3:59That's my signature name. Definitely not my HR name. I'm in the HR department. Mr. Demonstrative Hands again. We're having another complaint. Anyway. We should talk about the return of Brett Mahoney. That's pretty cool. I mean, as someone who's again a long time fan of this series since Netflix, to see that character pop up again was really cool. I mean, obviously it was very emotional for me to see Brett return. Reminded us who perhaps don't remember the show as well as obviously I do. Who is Brett Mahoney?

4:28Chris Hewitt:There's only one Mahoney worth a damn I'm on, and that is Steve Guttenberg. Whaler! Whaler! From the Police Academy movies. You guys. Brett Mahoney is someone who's been in every season of Daredevil. Of course he has. We know that. So is Matt Murdock. So is Karen Page. I know them. Who's Brett Mahoney? He has been a cop who's risen up the ranks over the course of the seasons as he's helped Daredevil close various cases. And was that him helping Matt get in to see Karen? Yes. Oh, I knew. I knew the second he walked on, I was like, that guy, that fucking guy is Brett Mahoney. Check out the big brain on breath.

5:15Chris Hewitt:Oh, it was amazing. He was, you know, he was employing a sex worker to give someone a blowjob and a podium. He was doing all the things that we associate with Mahoney police officers. Next cell is Karen Page. Amon, have you seen Police Academy? I'm trying to be better. I'm actually doing a lot of first-time watches recently. I'm trying to be better. I've watched all the President's Men and the Untouchables. It's no Police Academy. And the Untouchables. Neither is that. For the first time in the last couple of weeks. Right, okay. So I'm trying to be better to filling in some vitals. I think you'd enjoy it.

5:50Well actually to be fair, it's aged poorly. What is aged poorly? Some of the humour. Police Academy. Yeah. I don't think you'd like Police Academy. It's a product of zero. But the first one, and to a much lesser extent, the second one are... Well no James, to be honest, the first seven are brilliant. Yes, the eight one falls off a cliff.

6:08Chris Hewitt:Yeah, there's seven. Welcome to the Daredevil Born Against War Special. There's Police Academy. Police Academy 2, their first assignment. Police Academy 3, back in training. Police Academy 4. Citizens on Patrol. The last Steve Guttenberg movie before he was replaced by Matt McCoy, who's shit. Shart and Stones in that one. Then there's Police Academy 5. Wow. Operation Miami Beach? No, assignment in Miami Beach. Oh, I fucked it. Assignment! Police Academy 6, City Under Siege. Yes. And then they dispensed with the seven by the time they came around to Police Academy, Mission to Moscow, and that was the last one.

6:43Jeez.

6:43Chris Hewitt:And they were all made in the same month. They're pretty bad, but Police Academy was... They're not bad, they're classics. Is this 80s, 70s? And Steve Guttenberg, these are the films that made his name, and he starred in him not as Brett Mahoney, bringing it back to Daredevil, but Kerry Mahoney. And he was the star. He was like a roguish type who got recruited into the Peace Academy against his wishes. But then he found that he liked the job. And there's loads of people that you can root for. There's Officer Hooks, who's a very timid little lady. But you get on her wrong side and the big voice and the big stick's going to come out.

7:20Chris Hewitt:And then there's Tackleberry, who loves guns. There's Hightower, who's a unit. He played by Bubba Smith, right? Bubba Smith. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And he was a former NFL player. He was absolutely fucking massive. There's loads of amazing, amazing characters. Anyway, Daredevil Born Again, Season 2, Episode 7. There's a lot to talk about here. Should we start with how the episode ends? Sure. Which is the death, and in my opinion, the inevitable death of Daniel Blake. Now, this is very, very sad. Finally, at the hands and gun of Buck Cashman. James is quickly googling Daniel Blake, Buck Cashman and Daredevil Boyd James you've got to go soon I'm sending emails which I shouldn't be doing you idiot this is already off the rails I was here for the Police Academy chat and when I moved on from that I'm so sorry Buck Cashman killing Daniel Blake yes now talk to me about so you spoke to Dario Scardipane and he's dead right he got shot on the phone Dario Scardipane is very much alive but Daniel Brake that's not your usual interview style so I have done a spoiler special interview with Dario Scardipane who is the showrunner of Daredevil Born Again and Ian B.

8:50Chris Hewitt:MacDonald who is the director of these final two episodes now yes folks we have all seen the final episode the spoiler special interview is already done It is in the can. Dory, we're not going to give anything away. Liz is out there already, so I feel comfortable talking about this. I think Artie Frushen has talked about this in an interview, that the episode originally ended with Daniel alive. When he got to the edit, they were like, this doesn't feel right. This feels like we're cutting corners here. We're not committed to this. and maybe Buck Cashman should kill Daniel Blake. And so that's what's happened through the medium of CG.

9:37Chris Hewitt:So I don't think that there was a gunshot. In fact, there wasn't a gunshot. There is, I believe, the shot of blood. I don't want to spoil too much for my spoiler special, but the shot of blood was just from Daniel's head bleeding just naturally because Buck had kicked the shit out of him. but now obviously it looks like it's his death blood. And there's some more jiggery-pokery with a buck reaction shot that was him reacting to something else that is now him ruminating on what he has done. A good decision, I think. I said this to Dario and Ian. I thought it was the inevitable path. It's a sad path.

10:14Chris Hewitt:You could also argue that they've really tried, I think, in season two, and I think they succeeded to a great extent, to make the Buck-Daniel relationship. They've given Buck a lot more to do. Believe me, we talk about that with Dario. In fact, we talked about Buck Cashman almost exclusively for the full 50 minutes. And then at the end, they went, oh shit, daredevil. So they've given Artie Faroukian a lot more to do. And this relationship that they fostered between Daniel Blake and Buck, I think really works. Maybe could have done with a couple of more little beats to develop it a bit more. but I think you can feel the conflict that Buck is feeling when he is shooting or not shooting Daniel Blake.

11:00Absolutely you can and it really works because up until this point we've seen Buck as a very cold remorseless killer. This is the first time we've seen him kill someone and it's actually cost him something. You feel a piece of his soul wrestling with what he has to do. and so on that he likes a kid they shared a hot dog they had fun times burying a body yeah i'm in the catskills indeed but yeah it also reminds me you see you use the word inevitable there yeah and you know a lot of this season has us thinking about the real world connotations and what they're bringing in and this did this did feel inevitable because we've seen it a lot in the real world in terms of people coming in favor with powerful people, but ultimately being tossed aside when they fail the test of loyalty.

11:51And that's exactly what this one, what would happen with Buck and Daniel. So it feels very true to life in that respect as well. To quote Mordo, the build comes due, right?

12:03Chris Hewitt:So I think he was always Daniel Blake right from day one. It felt to me like he had a bullseye on his chest. I think it's the right thing to do with this character. I don't know how much more road he had to do. Maybe they could have turned him into baby kingpin, but I don't think that's... He's a good soul, essentially. Well, he is and he isn't. I'm not sure that he necessarily is. He's definitely got some mud on his... But I... He's right here. But I'm glad they did. I think partly, as you say, he'd run out of road. I think there's much more you could do with that character. But also, the show needs to have teeth.

12:40And I think sometimes you need to throw an elbow. And I think this is very much that. And it made you sit up and take notice, right? On the previous pod, you used the word consequences. And that is what? Have to be consequences. Consequences. I mean, you're talking about an extra couple of beats. But Daniel knows what is going to happen when he enters that room. When he sends Bibi off on his way, I would have liked to be of him maybe calling his mum for the final time knowing what the likelihood is about to happen there have been people who have been asking when he sent Bibi away why didn't he run away himself I think in part because if he does that the likelihood of his mum becoming collateral damage increases a hundredfold and so yeah I think he just wants to I think so because Buck will then come after him using any means at his disposal, he would know exactly where Daniel's weak spots are.

13:40Maybe he can't get to Bibi. His mum would be in play. I think that would definitely be a thing. I mean, I suspect the motivation was more that he expected to survive the scene as per the script. I've read ahead. I lived through this. I have scenes in the finale. It's like I've already shot them. It's okay. No, it's not. But yeah, I had that same thing. When he went up there, I was like, what are you doing? You're an idiot. But also, I think there's a kind of a Stockholm-y aspect to it. I think he genuinely likes Buck, and they do have a connection. And I think part of him maybe thinks that he can appeal to what light is inside him and their bond and maybe get away with it.

14:25That said, he probably should have lied a little bit and been less forthcoming, but there you go.

14:29Chris Hewitt:He should have just gone, he's going to a birthday party. Fuck you, Buck. What are you going to do? Shoot me in the face? Well, I don't think this is something that Buck just shakes off. I mean, one of the final things that Daniel says to him is like, how long is it going to be before it's you? And, you know, I think there's a possibility that we're going to see some conflict between him and Fisk in future where this will play on him. I think he's going to remember this fine conversation and these words for a while, essentially. you harm a hair on Buck Cashman's head I will come for the show I don't know I think it's going to be Fisk vs Buck at some point well it was nearly Daniel's death is very very sad and a very impactful way to end the episode the really really interesting thing and I wasn't on the last two shows but the really really interesting thing about life post Vanessa is It's Fisk's rage spiral.

15:31Chris Hewitt:And I've long felt that Daniel's death was inevitable. But Fisk being unmoored by Finesse's death brings a real air of danger to the show. So when he walks into the prison cell at the beginning of the episode and has a confrontation with Karen Page, I was genuinely on tenterhooks because anything can happen. And this dude is now just, you know, unleashed. What is Kevin doing? I'm sorry. What is wrong with that woman? I mean, that's fair. She was in an escape room for God's sake. You think she could have escaped by now? You know that Vanessa has just been killed. This is the... Why are you getting within all the reach of this man?

16:20Like, that is wild to me. That was wild to me. Yeah, she's stupid. She's crazy.

16:28Chris Hewitt:I genuinely thought there was a chance here when she came to the bar I was like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Literally everyone is shocked when Matt and Jessica told that Fisk went to the prison talked to Karen everyone is shocked because really that happened everyone knows that there was a possibility that Fisk would just go there and kill Karen and yet Karen would get within arms which is not to say that Fisk can find the key and open But still, why are you getting that close to that man? I think it's an interesting development for Karen as well. Because she's not afraid of him. She knows the dangers.

17:04Chris Hewitt:Like, you get close to a rattlesnake, then you shouldn't be too surprised if it bites you. Be not afraid of him, Alavan's reach. Yeah. I was going to say, there's a fine line between being brave and just fucking stupid. Well, she's in a prison cell. Like, she could stand 15 feet away from him, and he's the mayor of New York who's got all his, like, buddies running the place for him. so you can just go open the door and I'll jump in and pound you but there's a distinction there's a distinction between him making a decision to murder her which he absolutely could do and wouldn't need to do himself or the fact that he's incredibly volatile and prone to outbursts of violence at which point stands back honestly I admire her I admire her in that moment and you know she recognised that he had self-restraint which is really really interesting in the show where a lot of people are losing their self-restraint you know we've been talking on this show about how Dr Heather Glendon was a Scottish character in the history of film and television.

17:59And the worst character in this show?

18:00Chris Hewitt:No, not anymore. I think so. Not anymore. She is finally becoming interesting. Is she though? Her scene with Karen at the end where she goes absolutely fucking nuts and starts slapping Karen around and you know she's got the ghost of Muse. The way she plays Margarita La Viva I thought was really really interesting because she's got a barely repressed rage going on all the way through. This is like almost a long-awaited confrontation between, you know, the wags of Matt Murdock, you know. This is a really, really long-awaited confrontation between, you know, Matt Murdock's current girlfriend and his ex-girlfriend, who has become a psychopath unbeknownst to his current girlfriend.

18:45Chris Hewitt:And she's just really calculating and devious in that in a way that we haven't seen. uh and it's a light years beyond where she was when she started off in this show where she was so dull i'm not even sure she was two-dimensional like character and now she's got there's something going on there yeah i'm still bored really yeah i don't but i find that character quite irritating i find this particular muse arc of hers a bit basic and reductive so i'm not i'm not enjoying it particularly like this this sort of because she goes from the one thing she goes through this traumatic event and then become a malevolent scheming first with swords melon house or beating up Karen there on like a whatever it's like it's a nice progression they're all yeah I'm not I'm not it's not my favorite part of the show I find that character a little irksome I'm on backing up on this I'm taking a wait and see approach on all the new stuff I will say that that scene in the prison with her and Karen is good the scene with her and Fisk when it's revealed why she took that ring remember you were asking that question the last part.

19:48I still, I don't know what that adds. Reminds me, Amon, assuming that I haven't seen this for, I don't know, two months, what was the reason again? Well, it would seem that... Because of Brent Mahoney. Put respect on Brent Mahoney's name, both of you. Oh, sorry, it's Brent. Sorry.

20:08Chris Hewitt:Yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh. But yeah, the read that I took from that is that she and Vanessa were involved in some degree. Interesting. Well, romantically. I think she's just, really? If, I mean, why else would she have a ring from, or would she take the ring? I think it's just a further symptom of her mental decline. she's she's impulsive yeah she's becoming impulsive there's an element of kleptomania oh i like your theory a lot better but there's nothing to support that theory um but i whereas i think that you know for example you know when breaking bad first started um hank's wife marie had the whole kleptomania storyline going on and there may be something going on there this is a woman who is cracking under intense pressure and she's she's keeping this this very professional face open to the world.

21:04Chris Hewitt:and coming apart. Yeah, but taking her mask off. Because we weren't on, I was on last week's episode, but the scene where, the scene where she chokes Buck, I thought that was fascinating. And this character's not breaking through for you at all. This character who was like completely and utterly milk toast and now is strangling motherfuckers stealing the ring of the most dangerous man in New York and slapping Karen Page around. I'm musing it over, but I don't think so. You're an absolutely disgrace of a human being. Jimbo, I know you've got to go. You do have to go, right? You've got to go to lunch.

21:38Chris Hewitt:But before you do, we've got to talk about the big development of this episode. Matt Murdock, Daredevil. Not in this episode an awful lot, but there's a great, great moment, which is Matthew Murdock for the defence. It is. And the thing with that is, it is the most hoary of courtroom drama tropes. It's almost the point of eye-rolling Lee Cheezy, but there's a reason why, because it fucking worked. and you're like yes come on go on fucking use the law mat yeah i love it absolutely love it it's a really crowd crowd pleasing moment it's it's delightful i thought that was fantastic there i i was maybe less enamored with the shootouts in the car park that felt close because it makes no sense i know we're at this stage where there are no consequences for anything kingpin does but it's just oh fuck off do you know i mean it's just so ridiculous powell uh like plotting in, in, you know, full view of everybody going, oh, I'm going to kill you.

22:35Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Once we get into the car park, oh, watch out that. And also like, if you think you're going to get attacked by the anti-vigilante task force, park above ground. Like, what are you doing? Get a fucking Uber. Why are you going to an underground car park? Get an Uber. Yes. There's no way they can interfere with that. No, it's true that. Get an Uber Eats. Just order a hot dog and then jump on the back of the bike. That might work. But yeah, I, so I didn't like that, but he is very much there for him in the courtroom, just in general, because like Daredevil's got like, you know, two arenas and one of them is the street and the other one is the courtroom.

23:05And it's great seeing him fight people on the church. Let's hope. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was a really great moment. And it was a nice, like kind of, you know, reverse card because early in the season, Fisk have sort of made Matt Murdock a hero in trying to hunt Matt Murdock down. Now he's using that persona to enter the courtroom like a boss. It's a cool moment.

23:27Chris Hewitt:Yeah. What did you think? Did you think that's where it was going? Because he has a conversation with Karen earlier on. He sneaks in, thanks to Brett Mahoney. Yeah. He sneaks in. Legends. Who can forget? Because of that scene where Matt goes, thanks, Brett Mahoney, for sneaking me into this. For always being by my side. For all the years past and all the years to come. It's good to see you, Brett. You guys are unbelievable. Brett, I've left you everything I have in my estate. you will be godfather to my kids should we have some one day oh my god Brett I think if you you're the first thing I think of in the morning and the last thing I think of at night anyway let the record of the fact that I'm shaking my head on all of this so that scene where he sneaks Matt into see Karen and Matt says I have you know because I'm not going to kill him obviously I have other things I can do there are other things I can do.

24:26Chris Hewitt:Did you think that's what he was going to do? Okay. I thought that was quite clear. I did like that in that conversation, Matt doesn't need to voice it for Karen to understand exactly what he's thinking. No, I needed him to voice it. Chris was like, I'm very confused. There's one thing I want to ask you about, James, before you have to leave. Yes. Matt's letting bullseye go. Your thoughts? Practicality. You know I'm all about the practicality. it's like ultimately he had a weapon there he had someone who he could use to achieve his ends and i was like absolutely that was the right thing to do for me not like i don't know what the right option is because they can't hold him in punishers lair indefinitely no and if he goes to jail kingpin will have him dead within the matter and we don't want karen to shoot him in the face no we do not but at the same time letting someone you know to be a mass murderer go wait what All right.

25:24Letting someone you know... Letting someone you know to be a mass murderer go, knowing that he is going to kill again... Wow. Does he know that? Because he is on a slightly wobbly redemption arc at the moment.

25:39Chris Hewitt:He doesn't kill that guy in the governor's office. There's a close-up of the guy on the ground with, yes, sharp things in him, but he's breathing, which is unusual. But like, he recognizes that, and obviously we're meant to think that he's sending him potentially to kill Fisk or something like that, that he's actually going to use him as a proper weapon. But actually he retasts him in a protector role, which almost aids him in his redemption, which I think is a very Matt slash Catholic guilt thing to do. I'm not even talking about the mission which Matt sends him on. I'm talking about just the in future, beyond that moment.

26:17Consequences. So anything bullseye does from now on is exactly beyond that. of obi-wan and darlin it's the name of obi-wan it reminded me of obi-wan in the obi-wan show where he's defeated dark vader he doesn't give him a killing blow everything he knows that dark vader is going to go on to be cabocad across all the galaxy part of what happens beyond that moment is on him so what you're saying is a sensible thing would have just been to kill that motherfucker. Because ultimately, that would have solved all the problems. You know what, Amon? I feel like you and I are vibing today. I'm with you.