Daredevil: Born Again s2 ep8 (ft. Dario Scardapane & Iain B. MacDonald)

26:34Like, what? So, yeah. And then, yeah. And that allowed them to then, essentially, when their sort of story was resolved there in the balcony of the courthouse, we're then able to have a coda with all the characters, like where they are now, with finding where they go to, et cetera, afterwards.

26:51Chris Hewitt:if I'm right in thinking I don't think we see Buck in that coda is Buck okay he was shot in the stomach is he okay who knows who knows don't tell me guys don't mess with my boy Buck would we ever tune in and find out but come on bullets are nothing to a guy named Buchanan

27:14Chris Hewitt:if this becomes canon and his name is Buchanan in season 3 I think it should I think it should we would be so so happy alright so let's talk about some of the key moments of the season that lead to this finale we've mentioned Vanessa there you know she dies across the course of two fantastic episodes episode 5 those flashbacks of the return of Wesley and Foggy was wonderful can you talk about that decision about killing her off and at that point in the season as well So that's another one of those. There were things that we walked into the writer's room for season two. So just a really quick bit of context.

27:58The season one writer's room was 10 weeks, super fast, a lot of surgery. And we were weaving stories inside of previously shot footage. this room is the best genre writers room that i've ever worked with hands down so we were all kind of like we did a fast quick you know very surgical season one and then we came into season two with a wish list you know like this is this is the resistance story we want to tell but here are signposts inside of it and after the death of foggy there had to be something on the other side of the board. They both had to lose super touchstones because the fight is poison.

28:39So Vanessa, sadly, Vanessa was, we knew that this was going to happen and we knew it was probably going to happen right in the middle of the season. I had talked to Ayelet before the season even started. We all kind of knew where it was going because for, I don't want to get weird here, but look at the symmetry of it. Vanessa went behind Fisk's back, had Foggy killed, violating his truce. The instrument of that was Bullseye. Then when Bullseye comes back to be at one of the good guys, he inadvertently takes her out and now has made it so that the world has changed for both these men and there's no going back.

29:15Because Bullseye is our agent of chaos. He's just trying to do his thing and it always ends up with something earth shattering.

29:23Chris Hewitt:Finesse's death was interesting that you gave it such a grand send-off as well. We got to see a different side to her first meeting with Fisk, which gave her a lot of interesting agency as well in choosing that picture, choosing something that would draw someone like him in. She had no idea where that was going to go, but I thought it was an interesting wrinkle. Well, one of the things I think and it was intentional-ish, Foggy's death was sudden shocking and oh my god, we've been dealing with the fallout for it for two seasons. I would posit that season that episode five gives Vanessa a really beautiful send off, but it also gives foggy the time and send off in retrospect that he didn't have.

30:12We're saying goodbye to both those characters and we're doing it on purpose to show you the cost for Fisk and Matt of this fight. Yeah,

30:22Chris Hewitt:absolutely. And in the center of that episode, he is forgiving the man who killed them both. Yes. A very, very, very good point indeed. And there is another major character death that occurs in the season. And again, it's something that has felt kind of inevitable, Daniel Blake. But that moment. You know, there's a story about that. Okay, please, have at it. originally as shot. Daniel didn't die. But when we got to the editing room and we're sitting there and we're watching that key moment with Buck and Daniel, we're like, we're liars. We're faking it. This is not where it should. It needs to end with Daniel paying the ultimate price.

31:12So that was a decision that was made after the shoot. I called Michael and he's like, I completely not only understand, I support it. because there were one or two scenes after that moment with him that just seemed cheap and not real. And it's a testimony to how much we loved Michael that we couldn't bring ourselves to do what you just said was inevitable. Wow. Isn't that crazy? So the way it had been shot, Chris, was your favorite character, Buchanan Cashman. Buchanan Cashman. I'm going to get this. he's putting you know he and it was I mean it was crazy to shoot because we really wanted to see Buck's you know training military training his special forces expertise Dario had this great idea that he puts on these horrific gloves what are they called Dario?

32:04They're weighted gloves weighted gloves yeah so when he is putting the gloves on and he's asking and he's interrogating Daniel like where is she where is she and then you know the minute the gloves are on that he's gonna really suffer and so we did that great shot looking over the sofa where we don't see what Daniel is happening to Daniel but we know that Buck is you know literally pounding him and um and he's sort of like whimpering away you know so you imagine the horror of what's happening with his head then he's on the ground and then, you know, Artie did this fantastic thing where he, you know, channeled Daniel Craig and Bond and took a step back for the execution shot.

32:48And then obviously as it was scripted, he let him go. Daniel appealed to him to say, you know, where would you be? How long will it be until you're in the position I'm now in? And then he made the decision to walk away and had a great line of dialogue at the door. But because he took a few beats there, the door, we had the material to make it. to retroactively fit that he executed him and looks back at what he has done with Daniel on the floor. So it's Artie's performance from taking him down, and obviously Michael was terrific as well, taking him down and then really laying into him in a horrific, violent way, and then putting him under pressure, and then making all the choices he made.

33:28We had the material to make that happen in the edit suite. That is fascinating. Yeah, and it kind of shows you that there was a story being told that we were resisting you know arty was doing it michael was doing it and we just couldn't we didn't have the heart to do it until we were in post and somebody said and i do think it was brad he's like let's try this and when we the crazy thing is when we first tried it it was exactly like the end of the episode you could hear a pin drop everybody was just like oh fuck yeah and also to have the impact at the end of the episode to have that real emotional impact of like oh my god this is a terrible thing that's just happened and i think that's all that yeah what i dug because it was not on the page and that was not the original ending remember like the the episode ending with the gunshot go to black silence what a for me what a great way to do the penultimate episode because you're like holy shit that just happened and then you're immediately like what's next and that's one of those times you know it's such a cliche but you write it on the page you write it when you shoot it and you write it again in post episode 307 is a perfect example of that that is honestly fascinating so things like the blood because we see blood uh blood was from the beating yeah because the beating was so brutal we always talked about the beating really being really brutal and then you know jeff and i pitched dario the idea that he throws him on the sofa and then just pounds him you don't see what's happening to him but i had said to michael i wanted his arms to come up like he was sort of like trying to you know bat that buck away but in a really kind of pathetic way and then whimper just you know the hell he's going through i think men did you don't see that you just hear it makes the audience love daniel more oh my gosh we miss him yeah absolutely and just getting getting buck

35:21Chris Hewitt:and daniel to that point where you can sense that there's a bit of internal tension for buck that he might let him off but it feels like honestly where you we've gone is i think the inevitable choice the right choice to make and our boy buchanan is kind of doomed by the path he's chosen you know he he does these violent acts in service of queen country dollars and fisk and none of them have really stood by him yeah uh there's a lot to get into with our boy buchanan in season three or his own his own 10 episode spinoff who knows i would i'm not kidding i would love to do the buck like in between being in the sas and his servant and and working for wesley and fisk that time on what they call the circuit like the private military corporations the kind of just like you know gun for hire in the modern world uh you know hey if anybody's listening i I will do 10 episodes of that with Ian McDonald any day of the week.

36:26All right.

36:28Chris Hewitt:I would watch the hell out of those 10 episodes as well. I have to say, because I'm very, very quick because I want to talk about Jessica Jones as well. And I've got to let you guys go, but it's interesting to be watching the differences between season one and season two and how you approach certain characters. And, uh, you know, Heather, I think it's given a more interesting arc in season two with this obsession with muse and her slow mental degradation. it also felt to me that you loved what Artie was doing in season one and wanted to give him a lot more to do in season two. Artie Frishan is a great actor.

37:00I mean, there's just like, there's no two ways about it. And to praise one is not to denigrate any of the others. We have a great cast. Artie brings a flavor that, you know, this cool veneer over another person who's dealing with a violent nature and you know the that violent nature and how it infects a lot of our characters i mean speaking of the heather glenn character margarita must be like scratching her head because she started she signed on to be matt murdoch's girlfriend next thing you know she's essentially turning into muse like wow okay that that sorry we threw your curveball there what did you think of that last moment of her looking into the mirror and seeing herself in her face and then doing seeing her put herself in the mask and then I'll do me to tell you how we

37:51Chris Hewitt:did it this is great yes please first of all again we're talking about inevitability it felt like that was the inevitable choice for this character and you know signing on as you said Dario to play Matt Murdock's girlfriend ending up where she is now is a much more interesting pathway for her so I'm fascinated to see where she goes in season three there's a malevolence to that character that I hadn't seen before which is really really interesting so how did you do that How did we do it? Well, essentially, we knew that we wanted her to look in the mirror and see herself in the mask. Oh, no, she puts the mask on and sees herself as a sort of fully realized human without the mask.

38:27So she puts the mask on, looks in the mirror, and sees herself without the mask, but put together because she's going through, obviously, quite a tough time mentally at that moment. And so we had the location, and I was like, how do we do this? Then I had the idea, like, how would they do it back in, you know, using old school methods? you build the mirror image of the dresser and the mirror with no glass and you would shoot through that no glass and so so i drew a terrible diagram of like how we would do it then gerge kapuz storyboard great storyboard artist drew a proper diagram and then yan yeriko our art director then said to me what is missing is the small little kind of like lines on the edge of a mirror that that gives you the depth of the mirror, you know?

39:16So essentially we had an empty mirror image of the dresser that we shot through and it just like worked a treat. And I remember Brad saw it in the first viewing of 208 and was like, wow, I just love that Heather scene at the end. I think he didn't ask how he did it because it just happened so seamlessly, but it was beautiful. Like proper old school. It's one of those that you don't see the magic trick. And a sidebar here, Chris, is that Ian's sketches are legend. And I think you should make a coffee table book of them because they're super primitive, but also super awesome. And he's like, here, this is what I'm thinking.

39:56And it's like, you get this squiggle thing of like a box and then a face. And I'm like, I really don't know what I'm looking at. Chris, I might actually have one here from like season three, but let me just see if I can actually show you what the kind of terrible thing he's talking about. And you need to put, you've got to put a little like together. There's, there's one of Matt. So you get it, right? Yeah. I then show that to, I then show that to, you know, Gergay Kapus and he makes that beautiful, but you know,

40:29Chris Hewitt:for the listeners at home, Ian has just held up a book and there's a sketch of, of, of Matt looking like a beetle with red, red sunglasses on, which is, which is, is cool. it's beautiful beautiful guys i do have let you go but if you do have time just to uh i've got one last question about jessica jones uh if that's okay absolutely yeah what i got to do i just got to write the finale for season three that's true you're delaying his writing time we open on buchanan cashman daredevil lies dead at his feet i like it yeah all right i'm throwing out everything i got this is it you can't people talk to my people let's make this quiet contemplation and now for the spin-off says buck uh so uh you know in terms of delayed gratification you were talking about you know bringing matt into the courtroom in in episode seven uh you couldn't do that previously of course because of the setup of of this season uh jessica jones very heavy in the marketing the return of kristen ritter and uh you made people wait for for six episodes but when she came in boy did she come in can you talk about about that decision first of all we knew so you lay out these seasons in kind of acts you know the first three episodes are act one second uh three episodes are act two last episode two episodes are act three this is kind of like structure we knew that we had big events to lead to mostly having to do with vanessa in the first half and then we knew that we wanted to give you a feeling of the resistance is getting stronger and the administration is starting to fray.

42:10And then it adds, you end up in a what if conversation, which is Fisk is hunting vigilantes. What if this particular vigilante is getting hunted? And much as I would have loved to have Jessica Jones teaser of episode one, it's so much better to kind of bring it back in six and seven because now this new twist, this new flavor, this new set of a powerful ally pushes you into the end. And I mean, and come on, Ian did the shot. That shot of them all standing together, looking up at the rotunda. I mean, that's, you need to bring that in late and hit it hard. Yeah.

42:53Chris Hewitt:And what was it like shooting those scenes, especially in the courtroom at the end? Oh my, the courtroom at the end. Well, I mean, you know, you go from that chamber piece in the courtroom where you've got Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk. and then obviously as I said all the teams break away and then take refuge back there and then you essentially have Daredevil Jessica Jones Karen Page and Kingpin and then Kingpin has just taken out a whole bundle of protesters and Matt and Jessica fight through Task Force which is incredible, Phil's already done an amazing job with that, that stunting which is the teller to always and then they meet the Rotunda and then the beautiful thing was the way Dario and Jesse had written it was then Fisk appeals to the masses who have, who, and Daredevil stopped.

43:48He says, I love New York. I did this for you. All that great stuff. And suddenly there's a decision amongst the crowd. Crowd mentality takes over and then they all rush up the stairs. And then you have this, I still find it mind-blowing to watch this kind of ballet of like human being thrown over the top of like the parapet. And then Fisk fighting, fighting the people who are just tearing up the stairs to like confront him. And then it just blows my mind. And, you know, Phil Savera suggested that JJ jumps up and helps, you know, help stop the crowd. And Matt uses his baton to propel himself up there and then to stop the crowd.

44:26It just blew my mind at how when I see Vincent throwing off, you know, two stunt performers and in slow motion, my mind is fried. It's just like, this is incredible. It was beautiful. Beautiful. That was a heck of a night.

44:41Chris Hewitt:It sounds like a heck of a night. Jessica gets a really great introduction in episode six, where we don't see her face. We just see people that we now know are Mr. Charles' guys going to try and bump her off. Can you talk about that, reintroducing her to the MCU in that way? One of the things that we've embraced in the course of these seasons, coming back after the Netflix shows ended, is that that time passed. These characters matured. These characters had life experiences. JJ became a mom. And that's huge, right? So we wanted to do this curveball of like, you expect to see JJ in Hell's Kitchen at a bar in a leather jacket.

45:22Okay. But what about the domestic? She's in upstate. She's in a house. She's got a kid. She's leading this bucolic life. And then somebody tosses a grenade through her window. So going from point of view of the child, you know, and not seeing mom until mom's kicked the crap out of a bunch of people and comes in and says, this is not a toy. That was, you know, there are certain sequences, diner sequence, tale of two hallways, baby with a bomb, that they really do start in the writer's room with just those kind of lines. Like, yeah, baby with a bomb. You go, okay. so yeah we knew that we knew we wanted to set up a domestic situation that then goes ultra violent and ends with like mom telling him not to play with hand grenades which is very very

46:11Chris Hewitt:good parental advice as well and ends the season ends with with mom reuniting with dad as well and Luke Cage comes back into into the picture for very very briefly at the end can you talk about that that family is important to our storytelling and you know without giving up too much without giving too much away and being very careful of the kind of you know what i can and can't say when you bring in jessica with danielle in the comics everybody knows that luke is danielle's father at the very end of season two that family is reunited a door is closed that says alias investigations and for me that's a packet of seeds that can grow So whether I'm doing it, whether someone else is doing it, that closing moment plays forward.

47:01Now, I'm not going to tell you if and how it plays forward in season three, but that is a moment that definitely plays forward.

47:09Chris Hewitt:I am very, very interested to see where you guys go with this. I just want to super make a quick question, which is the opening of episode four, that amazing action sequence with Bullseye in the diner. It's so great. How on earth did you get Billy Joel to sign that off? We've really been super lucky with our music department, David and Justine. they're really really good at getting stuff licensed I have a feeling Mr. Joel thought the whole thing was pretty funny if he even knew that it came his way because that song it started with that song Chantel Wells I gotta give her props that scene from page to what you saw is almost unchanged you know there's the addition of a lobster because we walked into a diner that had a lobster tank which that was surreal but uh uh yeah that you know we've been I don't know if we've been I shouldn't even tempt fate but you know the Marvel machine is very very good at getting songs Yeah we were Radiohead obviously in the end of 8 and Bowie at the start of 7 Yeah that's the first time I've ever placed a Bowie song.

48:24Ian and I are extreme Bowie fans He's a completist I'm not as nuts as him but yeah and getting It Ain't Easy for the top of 7

48:37Chris Hewitt:yeah yeah so many great needle drops but yes so many people died to new york state of mind i'm just like wow this is this is great it's a melancholy song you know we're already mourning them as it's happening but that was a great milkshake i think i think uh in the uh buchanan cashman spinoff the the opening action sequence should be set to uptown girl that's just my it's just my two cents you may get your wish i think that we've actually created the buchanan spin-off here at least in our minds uh absolutely guys i'm going to go in adario uh it's been a pleasure talking about daredevil uh season two and obviously as co-creators of the buchanan cashman spin-off we'll be in touch again we will definitely be in touch chris i think lastly buck is a big fan of free jazz ornette colman you know it's what what goes on in his brain i think I'm thinking it's actually weird math rock like he may be like Antoine or that very strange French Canadian duo that wears costumes and plays microtonal stuff all the gold stuff yeah yeah yeah listen we can talk about this in the writer's room guys we'll see you there I think it's opening up September 1st we'll talk to your agent Chris we'll get this all worked out no worries sounds good to me Dario Ian it's been a pleasure thanks guys that was fun Chris cheers bye okay that was Dario Oscar D 'Apane and Ian B.

49:58Chris Hewitt:Macdonald talking about Buck Cashman Hero for Hire which is the show that I pitched to replace season 3 of Daredevil Born Again they did talk, you'll be delighted to know they did address why an Englishman is called Buck and Dario's answer was basically that it's just a pseudonym it's a nickname that he has adopted because he's blending in in America although he hasn't changed his accent but you'd be delighted to know that Dario really liked I think it's your idea James that is actually short for Buchanan Buchanan Cashman and that may now be Buck Cashman Cannon going forward so we have influenced Daredevil Born Again Excellent Everything is preceded as I have foreseen That was a ton of fun talking Buck Cashman and occasionally Matt Murdock with those two guys.

50:58Chris Hewitt:But shall we talk about the star of the show in this episode? The big shock, the big Matt Murdock revelation, Hellspells, this to me felt inevitable because we joked that only four people in New York didn't know he was Daredevil, but it was beginning to feel that way in this show. Like, pretty much everybody, with the exception of everybody's favorite American Scotswoman, Dr. Heather Glenn, pretty much knew he was Daredevil. I guess quite a few people knew. Shall we count the ways? But he did have sort of, you know, some of them were in a position where they couldn't prove it without outing themselves as baddies.

51:36And so I think he did it to try and, you know, obviously get the power on his foot. What's the expression? Get the power on the other foot? I don't know. He did it to try and turn the tables on them, I suppose. The shoes on the other foot. The shoes on the other foot. There it is. Thank you. I don't know. I'm not at 100 % today. What is it? What is it that goes on your foot?

51:56Chris Hewitt:It's not a jumper. It's some kind of... Is it the power? I get up in the morning, I put some power on my feet, I go into a power shop and I buy some new powers. That would be great, wouldn't it? If you could just put power on your feet in the morning. It would be great, yeah. Anyway, I guess there's a sort of a strategy to it. And, you know, Marvel has talked in the past about they don't really do very many, you know, secret identities. No, they don't. He was a relative one out, an old one out at this point, I guess. Yeah, who else are we doing? We have Peter Parker. Yeah, who's very much back in the closet.

52:30Chris Hewitt:And that, I was about to say, that didn't go badly at all, so. Yeah. Is that it? In terms of the major heroes? There's probably some more. Ms. Marvel, I think, is not out. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. What about Moon Knight, like, generally? I don't think he knows. Yes, he does know who he is. That's a fair point. And also, we're talking about heroes that will appear again in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Wow. And sadly, I think that... Justice for Moon Knight. I know, listen, I'm a huge fan of Moonlight. I was lamenting before we started recording the absence of She-Hulk in the MCU. It's such a shame.

53:07Chris Hewitt:It is such a shame. We will probably never see those people again. Lay, along with the Eternals, died on the way back to their home planet. But their home planet was Earth. It's such a shame, isn't it? But yeah, this Matt Murdock thing, did it take you by surprise, Amon? Did you see it coming? A little bit. During that scene, that scene very much built to it, didn't he? Yeah. I figured he was going to do it when he turned around the courtroom and said, I am Daredevil. Yeah, that was a giveaway for me as well. It really was. I thought, he's up to something. I'm reading between the lines here. I think he's about to out himself.

53:41Chris Hewitt:I could be wrong. Sorry. Oh, my God. Helen, you need to put some more power on your feet. I've got to disturb on. Oh, my God. Your phone's like, fuck you, I'll disturb you when I want. Objection, Helen. Objection. Sustained. Anyway, I'm on before Helen so rudely interrupted you. I really liked the sequence on a number of levels. First of all, you know, we've seen a lot of Daredevil versus Kingpin over about five seasons of Daredevil that we've gotten. We haven't really seen Murdoch versus Fisk in a courtroom before. so it was cool for them to have a fight in that way I enjoyed that and yeah the reveal is really well done I just liked how Hothberg in media is like you don't really expect everyone to believe a blind lawyer is Daredevil and then he does his trick with the Billy Club and it's just like any more questions I thought that for a second he was gonna maybe try and get out of it that way this is gonna be some outlandish claim how can a blind lawyer possibly be Daredevil and then he did of course the Billy Club thing and it was I mean not actually his Billy Club though wasn't it it was his cane his folded cane but yeah I talked about this a little bit on last week's pod it's kind of like the ultimate you know reverse card that Matt has pulled here because early in the season Fisk and a very smart player at the time was he went on camera and said Matt Murdock is a hero let's bring this hero home because he knows that Matt Murdock is Daredevil and he's trying to hunt down Daredevil at that time now Matt uses his their double persona to turn the tables and actually put this well we'll take this down in a way put the table on the other foot if you will like I said not my best day so on that level I think it's really clever storytelling as well Helen's like I make one mistake in 15 years I make one mistake you know us well enough to know we would never make it the running joke you'll never drive it into the ground not you guys the one thing I was like I could have done with that in that moment when Matt reveals that he is Daredevil why don't we get more reaction shots from Kirsten from Heather to that reveal that could have been really effective I did re-watch it this morning and when you get Chris from Ritter smirking knowing but he means people who didn't know so like the big shock of like oh fucking hell yeah because everyone's like duh your old retired cop is a bit I knew it I knew a blind lawyer but it kind of saves his bluffs as well because in the first season of Born Again he gets his ass whooped by Matt and then he now knows that you know he wasn't just fighting a blind lawyer he was fighting at great police work there Powell yeah I didn't mean Powell the evil cop I also meant his cop he uses as a sort of PI oh Cherry the older guy but Cherry is or is he new I forget yeah so I think Kirsten is figuring it out before Matt actually says that he is there if you watch it back she's like huh why is he going down this route and I think she's kind of figuring that before Matt actually says it but I could have done with a few more reaction shots from people who didn't know like a crash zoom into someone's face huh that kind of thing that would have been amazing in re-watching it this morning when the judges sort of say that the pace is thrown out Heather initially stands up to go and confront Matt but then Buck kind of tells her to sit back down so I think she was going to have sort of that relationship well yeah because it's very interesting for Dr.

57:32Chris Hewitt:Heather Glenn how this is panning out because you know they were you know they were an item and he lied his ass off to her the entire time I think it's a really really fascinating turn of events I have to say Jimbo and the one thing that really strikes me about it is you know like Fisk has had this in his power all season like Buck was impressing upon him that maybe outing Matt to the public would be a good thing as early as what episode two of this season and Fisk was like no don't want to do that do you think it was important that it was Matt's decision that he was the one who actually turned to New York and said I am Daredevil yeah I think I definitely think from his point of view being able to control the narrative, although when we get to the end of this episode, I'm not sure that it did him an awful lot of good.

58:19But it does help him win the case, which is obviously important. The greater good. Yeah, indeed. But him taking that away from Fisk is nice, because Fisk was not going to use that, because obviously they had many more episodes of the show to go, and they didn't want to end it prematurely. I believe Fisk says that, actually. Yeah, he's ridiculous. We had multiple episodes to go. But again, the way that Matt draws him, because he's like, you called me a hero. Am I a hero? And then, as all good lawyers do, he doesn't wait for him to answer and moves on to another topic. Yeah, that seemed good. I'll be honest, legally speaking, I wasn't 100 % sure of his strategy.

58:53Can you testify in that? Because he's just testifying. He's not on the stand. It's like you're not allowed to do that, I don't think. Yeah, that was my biggest issue with it. And the idea that the judges would immediately turn around and dismiss all charges against a completely unrelated person who is not affected in any way. The substance of the charges against her do not depend on Wilson Fisk being a good person. they try to make that argument a little bit in this you know in through what matt says but there's no way it would be enough to dismiss a case with prejudice his argument seems to be i'm out of order you're out of order this whole courtroom's out of order like sustained and yeah i think that's basically what happened i think the judge is quite anti the court she's clearly we've seen scenes in previous episodes she's clearly very unhappy with this perversion of justice so i get that that's been sort of established and sort of like the groundwork's been laid a little bit.

59:46But it is still like legally speaking I think the term is nonsense. Did you like the A Few Good Men moment? I mean I always like it. I will answer the question!

59:56Chris Hewitt:And that doesn't answer the question. You can't handle the truth Mr. Murdoch. Yeah that's something that he talked about as an inspiration for that. But the law is an ass. Ellen, yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense does it? The law. The law rarely makes sense. There's the old adage about sausages. Those who love sausages and the law should never watch either one being made. Law isn't infallible. Did you like the episode? Did you think it was a good ep? Yes, I did enjoy it. Cast your mind about James when you watched it. No, yes, it's been a while. Look, we're going to get onto this sooner or later.

1:00:35I had many, many misgivings about the resolution towards the end. I have a feeling that unusually, unusually for this podcast, myself and Amon are going to be very much on the same page. Which bit? Specifically. It's like an eclipse or Hayley's Comet. It comes along once every many, many years, but we are at the point where you and I, Amon, are aligned. I don't believe you can offer someone a deal and then at no point revisit the deal when he murders like 150 people with his fucking bare hands with many witnesses. And then you're like, oh yeah, that deal, yeah, it still holds. You're all good.

1:01:07Off you go. Off you, Todd. God, fuck off. Exactly. Thank you. This is music to my ears. Yes, fully agree. I think this, as a piece of superhero storytelling, this is a good entertaining ep. Ethically and morally. That the resolution is complete and utter nonsense. And it's frustrating that this is partly why I asked you about the whole Matt and Bullseye last week. Because Matt, for the entire season, for really the entirety of this show, he's been very, you know, I can't kill, Karen, you can't kill, nobody kill, nobody kill, nobody kill. When it comes to his villains especially, like, you can't do that.

1:01:53what about henchmen what about the normal people who get caught up in the games that he and Fisk play all the time Fisk is literally drenched in the blood of New York citizens which are yards away and he's talking about deals come on man and yeah I know that it fits in with the themes of mercy and grace which is very much prominent in this season but on an ethical moral level, especially given his predilection for nobody can kill, it just doesn't make any sense to me. It didn't make sense. I understood him offering grace and I understood him reaching out for forgiveness and if he hadn't gone on a fucking bloody rampage do you know what?

1:02:39You could probably say it's a stretch but forgive his crimes but there is a point where if you're not adhering to either the law or any kind of superordinate morality, it's like I don't know who Daredevil is at that point. It's like the man And as Amon said, he's drenched in other people's blood. There are bodies everywhere. It's like, come on. It's back-to-back episodes now where he's let mass murderers. It's not ideal. And this is why I mentioned, I mean, obviously I had the benefit of having watched the episode beforehand. But this is why I was talking to you last week about Matt and Bullseye, given that I'm not just talking about the mission that Matt sends Bullseye on.

1:03:14Beyond that fact, Matt has done the dance with Bullseye enough times to know that he is very likely going to kill again. And not that I have much love for the AVTF guys who Bullseye kills, but they are still people who Bullseye has killed. Part of that is on Matt, I think, for letting him go. And again, I know that there was not any easy solution to the Bullseye thing, but I don't know if it was that. It feels like he's being recruited to be a Thunderbolt at this point. Yes. Well, this is why I think it would have been how I would have rewritten it. And they've just released an interview where I think, I think it was Dario Scarlopani was saying that the Kristen Ritter schedule they were trying to figure it out and that was part of the reason why she was a bit stop and start this season but I would have had her go to protect the governor and then put Bullseye in jail and now knowing that Bullseye is going to be recluded by the CIA why don't have before Kingpin can get to him have the CIA get him out of jail to save him and reclude him that would have been a better way to do things like that that's true Matt's hands would have been clean as it is their super not clean.

1:04:20Chris Hewitt:Well, you end the season in jail, and rightly so. Yeah, but it's also just the... It's not the legal aspect so much. It is that moral aspect, to be honest, of that. I am also troubled by just killing a bunch of people. I mean, did he kill anyone? Yeah, we saw... He bent that one guy against the freaking... Yeah, yeah, but you know what? The spider's gone. Surgeons are very, very talented these days. It's a mere flesh wound. Okay, this is not a pit spoiler special, all right? This is not a de-gloving incident that they've got to figure out. Look, maybe they will all make miraculous recoveries. Yes, they all get that.

1:04:55Like all of Batman's victims.

1:04:57Chris Hewitt:Just added to, you know, Fisk is going to be in exile. You know, I don't know. Do you really want to... Bygones, I say. Bygones. I was interested that they specifically mentioned Fisk renouncing his citizenship as one of the conditions of his being allowed to go into exile. Presumably so he wouldn't be able to run for office again. so yeah this is interesting because we've seen they're shooting season 3 right now and we've seen I've seen I don't know what you guys have seen but I've seen pap shots of Vincent D 'Onofrio as Wilson Fisk in New York with a beard so clearly he comes back at some point Charlie Cox is also around with a beard and posting pictures of himself in his prison uniform massive spoiler Charlie when was he when did he do that?

1:05:46he put a picture up on Instagram of him posing with, I think it was with Debra Ann Wall, and he's wearing the jumpsuit, and then he rapidly took it down. Was this like the Mike Coulter one?

1:05:56Chris Hewitt:Mike Coulter put up something, apparently, with... Oh, was it Mike Coulter that put it out? Oh, okay, my mistake. All of them have been putting so much stuff out individually. Yeah. So, yeah. But they're shooting season three right now. I mean, yes, I completely and utterly agree with you that the conversation after Fisk agrees to the deal and goes, all right, Murdoch, I accept, but you'll understand if it won't shake your hand and Matt goes yes I understand and then Matt goes hang on is it because it's covered in the blood of 100 people that have just bludgeoned to death we might need to have a chat about that deal but clearly they don't care about that and it's a bit of a hand wave and I understand I agree with you that it probably shouldn't be waved off but then Fisk would just be in jail and then we're dancing the same old dance again is that a problem going into season 3 we've talked about this a lot on this show already that Fisk at the moment along with bullseye I guess as well but Fisk is really the only daredevil antagonist who's worth a damn on the small screen so far and this dance can't go on forever they can't there's got to be resolution this was a disappointment for me actually because much as I think Vincent D 'Onofrio is in many ways the best thing in the show I think he's run his course and I kind of I almost just wanted a final end to Fisk in this season to make them reset and to go on and do other things.

1:07:18And I'm not saying that I was just like, Matt, just let them tear him apart. It's fine. It solves the problem. But I'm also not saying that. Wow. As a piece of superhero storytelling, I think it works in that Matt doesn't fully win and doesn't fully lose and Kingpin doesn't fully win and doesn't fully lose. He's on a beach earning 20%. But no, he loves New York City and he's exiled from New York City. Yes, I hate Dumbumbbeams. I would much rather be in Hell's Kitchen. I mean, he hates the feeling of standing beneath his toes. Like you said that to Vanessa.

1:07:53Chris Hewitt:Anakin, he doesn't have to take his shoes and socks off. He can walk in shoes, that's fine. With the power of his shoes, he'll be totally fine.

1:08:01So there's some sort of balance with how both of their stories temporarily resolve in this. On that level, it works. Yeah, but temporarily is kind of the word, I guess.

1:08:14Chris Hewitt:And where's it going to go next time? So do we have a destitute kingpin who's trying to, I don't know. Oh, I don't know if I want to see him build his way back up. That sounds scary. Maybe, yeah, maybe that's where he's going to be. Yeah. But like properly down and out. And how's Matt Murdock? Because one of the interesting things that Dario Scartapani said, and another interview I did that will be running in Empire Magazine with someone who should remain nameless for the time being, also said to me, is that this is not something that they're going to wish away. This is not something that they're going to, they're not going to put this particular genie back in the bottle.

1:08:51Chris Hewitt:Because in the comics, Matt Murdock has been outed before, and then hand wave, hand wave, magical, magical, magical. Not strange. Yes, Purple Man, and everyone forgets, and it's all good. And they're not going to do that, is what they're saying. So that the new status quo of the show is, everyone knows that Matt Murdock is there. How is that going to work? That in and of itself is really interesting because it's kind of the street-level guys who need a secret identity, really. They're either having a secret identity or they're fugitives, like Punisher. Those are really your only options because you're not powered enough to sort of fight off all comers.

1:09:26Or rich enough. Or rich enough to kind of make it all go away. Yeah, you can still see Stark Tower on the New York horizon in this. Can you? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't notice that. Okay. Yeah, it does make life more difficult for him. I can foresee I can imagine a plea deal if they've just given Fisk that fucking deal I can imagine a plea deal if I'm honest because like the worst they've gotten for I think is attempted murder murder murder murder murder murder murder yeah and assault presumably yeah and actually if he can say you know I think my attitude my actions showed that I never intend to kill anyone let's not worry about I just threw him off a building it wasn't hey that's not one of the charges I would be astonished if they have bullseye down as one of the charges against Daredevil.

1:10:11He's not around to testify.

1:10:12Chris Hewitt:They won't know. They don't know. And so many of his quote-unquote crimes no one will know about apart from the people who be injured. Exactly. Grievously, yeah. But I genuinely, I don't think that's the attempted murder that they're talking about in that scene. So anything else we know is... They come into the Indian restaurant at the end and they arrest him in front of Karen. Yeah. That scene? So they say murder. They say attempted murder. that's actually that's a proper restaurant isn't it it is a proper restaurant is it Panna 2 Garden Indian Restaurant that's correct yes of course it was in the Netflix show and it looked mega mega cool in the Netflix show and I was like oh I'm gonna go there when I go to New York I think we should go I think we should make it happen I'm on get your passport excellent let's do it yeah I really really really want to go there and of course I was glad to see it back I mean it was so good to have Brett Mahoney back last week I was just so I was overjoyed so memorable and then to have who was Brett Mahoney oh don't hell how dare you oh my god you don't know who Brett Mahoney is and you called yourself a Daredevil fan that is just shocking I don't know if I I expect your resignation on my desk Brett Mahoney you failed me Brett Brett good old Mahones you know oh that guy who was back as the police dude sure why not the Mahonster okay yeah El Mahonerino if you don't know the whole brevity thing oh boy he really tied the room together I felt he was back he was back and then of course this week at the end of the episode when Bibi goes to work for the bulletin the guy from Netflix the guy we saw the guy Ellison Ellison is back Ellison and I was like oh fucking hell Brett Mahoney Panna to Garden so they seem to be getting closer and closer and closer to like a proper reset almost but with one major thing that everyone knows that Matt Murdoch is Daredevil which means going forward unless he can somehow get some sort of incredible legal precedent yeah I think we're done with Matt Murdoch in the courtroom which is a which is that's very shame or but then whenever Daredevil intervenes in a crime is everyone should be like all right Matt if they're all state level crimes the governor could pardon him just say that is true potentially right that is true as long as he's not committed any federal crimes yeah and if he had a full pardon then he might well maybe possibly be able to hold on to his bar license.

1:12:40Would he not be disbarred for vigilantism? I don't know what their rules are on vigilantism. I'm going to be honest with you. I think that there may be some... I'm just saying there might be wiggle room for it if you're determined to make a courtroom drama there. Yeah, absolutely. I've pardoned so many times for all my crimes. But yeah, I'm just saying. Like it's not beyond the realm of possibility that a superhero show could pardon the hero and get him out of prison and restore the status quo ante.

1:13:12Chris Hewitt:Oh my God. Yep. What if he gets defended in season three by Jennifer Walters? Oh my God. I mean, it's not her kind of case, but yeah, okay. I mean, yeah. I don't know if she can practice in New York. Stop pissing on my dreams for the love of God. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I do hope that he spends his time in prison profitably. And by which I mean beating up on Powell. Yeah, I mean, in the whole realm of the MCU so far, 37 films, 427 episodes of television shows, roughly, approximately. Has there ever been a more fuck that guy character than Powell? Very few, if any. I mean, right? Really fuck that guy.

1:14:00The most punchable guy in the MCU, I would argue. I think Cole North might help him out in prison a little bit. So at least he has one ally. Oh, no, he deserves punching too.

1:14:15Chris Hewitt:At least he takes Powell out. He makes a stand against Powell at the end. Better late than never. Well, you know, absolutely. That's why he's punchable number two rather than punchable number one. His final shot in the season is Matt is walking to his side, like Cole gives him a nod and it's like yeah I think he's are we going to have some proper like prison action is it going to be like Rorschach like I'm stuck in here with you there's going to be at least one extended scene where Matt throws down prison without a doubt hey didn't we have that already we had it with Frank in season 2 we did have it a little bit in season 3 of Daredevil when Matt is trying to break out there's that long 10 minute take which is incredible so yeah but But I think he'll get bloody in season three, for sure.

1:15:02What if Peter Parker's watching this and going,

1:15:04Chris Hewitt:oh my God, he was a really good lawyer. I want to know what J. Jonah Jameson, the dicks of all this. Parker! But you mentioned Peter Parker. Part of the reason why I would have mon guaranteed that Daredevil's in Spider-Man Brand New Day is given the trailer of Brand New Day, which has Peter Parker, Spider-Man in prison, and also the hand, a known enemy of Daredevil, also in the film, Daredevil's going to be in Spider-Man Brand New Day. I'm saying that right now. It is possible, I guess. Yeah, it's possible. I'm not going to shoot down that among guarantee because that's also, you better believe it, buddy.

1:15:42Chris Hewitt:Helen, is it a Helen Har Highwater? We've never settled on that. My favorite is still Benny's guessing it. That is definitely the worst. your entire warning hasn't quite caught on yet yeah I think that's entirely possible I really do yeah Charlie Cox is keeping mum about that for the time being but you can imagine why right yeah but maybe Peter Parker Andrew Garfield yeah maybe Peter Parker breaks him out who knows we shall see let's talk about some other stuff and some other characters so Bullseye is off on a plane with Mr. Charles. He seems to be replacing Luke Cage. And why? Because Luke Cage, aka Mike Coulter, has come back to the MCU and has reunited with his lady love, Jessica Jones.

1:16:35Chris Hewitt:And that seems to bode well for season three of this show. I would be amazed if they're not properly in it as a trio. That seems to be where this is going. Unless you think they're going to announce an alias investigation. I did think it might be maybe not a spin-off show but maybe like a special one-off three-off something like that yeah we know that Mike we know that Luke Cage Jessica Jones and Danny Land are all going to be in Dead All Season 3 there's enough pap shots that have confirmed that oh so we've seen Finn Jones yeah in pap shots as well oh well nevermind oh no that's really harsh this is not to throw shade on Finn Jones I'm just saying that character never really landed and of all of the ones that we are migrating over from the Netflix-iverse that is the dodgy transfer.

1:17:24Chris Hewitt:But we talked about this in a previous episode where I felt quite sorry for Finn Jones because he was in the middle of a storm that wasn't necessarily of his own making and things haven't gone brilliantly for him career-wise since which you can't say of Charlie Cox and Tristan Ritter and Mike Coulter and I hope that this offers him a shot of redemption a second chance and maybe they can get the character right now. I will say that the first season of Iron Fist was bad. And that may have turned too many people off. Is this bad bad or Michael Jackson bad? Bad bad. Okay, bad bad. I mean, Michael bad.

1:18:01Chris Hewitt:A third bad has entered the chance. True. But season two of Iron Fist was solid. And also, Danny Rand showed up in season two of Luke Cage and they had like a Heroes for Hire team episode, which was genuinely good. So I just don't know how many people watched that and checked it out. after Iron Fist season one, which was horrific, which is a shame because... I thought he was quite good in The Defenders as well, but I'm the Defenders defender. I'm your person who will defend The Defenders. Yeah, I think they made him the punching bag of many jokes in The Defenders, which did not ultimately... Or the fisting bag.

1:18:36Oh, no. Which did not ultimately serve the character very well. Yeah. But yeah, I'm not unopposed to seeing him again. I think he could fit in well with this new incarnation of The Defenders and pay us for hire, whatever they decide to do.

1:18:52Chris Hewitt:I agree. That looks interesting. Luke Cage back in the game. And he seems to be off doing some gnarly shit for Mr. Charles. I think what's happened there, Luke Cage season two ends with Luke Cage taking over Hannah's Paradise and kind of taking over the crime there so as to control it. What I imagine is how Mr. Charles vopes Luke Cage in is that we can prosecute you and get you in trouble for that or you can come and work for me, which is why Luke Cage ultimately did what he did. But yeah, it'll be interesting to get more info on exactly what that entailed when we see these characters again. I imagine we will.

1:19:33Yeah.

1:19:34Chris Hewitt:All right. Any other characters I'd like to talk about? So let's see who we had. Karen. Let's talk about Karen. The show kind of leaves her in, I don't know, a bit of limbo. Obviously, she's been cleared of all charges because of reasons. But what's next for Karen Page? Hells Bells? I imagine she goes to work for other lawyer woman. Other lawyer woman? Kirsten. Kirsten, yes. Kirsten McDuffie. McDuffie, yes. I have definitely learned her name. Heather Glenn and Kirsten McDuffie. Okay. So she's, I mean, that would seem to make a certain amount of sense to me. But yeah, she is clear, at least. Doesn't have to use all her wigs for a little while.

1:20:15She can let her scalp breathe, which I'm sure is going to be wonderful for her hair condition. But that's about all we know, I think. Like, did she have a credit card with her to pay for her meal? Let's hope so. She's got Jack Duquesne's checking account. She's fine. That's right.

1:20:32Chris Hewitt:How much is in that checking account, do you think? I'm guessing a lot. I'm guessing she can cover herself for a prison sentence or two. That should be fine. So she's okay. I was confused about the ring thing. The ring thing. yeah with Heather Glenn what ring thing or why she stole Vanessa's ring oh it's because she's a big fan of tapas oh dear that's James's reference something that was cut from last week's podcast oh that's a show yeah well Amon has Amon has a theory Amon has a theory Amon has a theory is it a fake ring that he was picking up like why so she seemed to steal the ring I understood that and then the ring is in the box and Wilson picks it up and is all suspicious of it and then shows it to her and she goes oh my god it was an impulse I shouldn't have done it Yeah.

1:21:14So what did she do? I don't know. My understanding, Amon thinks that there was something illicit going on between her and Vanessa, which was not my reading of it. I mean, that's a leap. Do you know what? I think we should make that canon. I really do. The more I think about it, the more it's probably not what was going on. But I guess it's just more her mental deterioration and impulse control and the fact that she's going... As we know, Helen, it's a very, very small leap to go from sealing a ring to becoming a masked serial killer. So, you know, clearly that's her villain origin story. I understand the mental deterioration.

1:21:44I wasn't, I just, I'm not clear what he was suspicious of.

1:21:48Chris Hewitt:Was he suspicious of anything? The ring wasn't there in one case, in one shot, when he goes to look at her jewelry tray, right? This is how I read it. And then next time he went back, it was there. And then he figured out that it must have been Heather Glenn who took the ring and then put it back. And then put it back. Yeah. That's what I'm guessing. All right. I guess that makes sense. And of course, you know, and he understands that she had an emotional connection to Vanessa. Yes, to Vanessa. And I think he actually shows her a little bit of grace in that moment, which is unusual for Wilson Grant Fisk.

1:22:27Chris Hewitt:But James and I butted heads about this last week. I think she has become one of the most interesting characters in the show out of nowhere. And there's James butted heads with me again. because and Dario Scardipane said something similar actually that she signed on Margarita Leviva who plays Dr. Heather Glenn although her Scottish accent is fucking terrible she signed on to the show to be Matt Murdock's girlfriend right and then everything changed showrunners changed Dario Scardipane came in and was like this role is boring what if we made you interesting and I think she is interesting at the end where she's going is potentially interesting.

1:23:11Chris Hewitt:Last week when she was slapping Karen Page around, I was like, hang on a second, you've become interesting. I did enjoy her neck-punching Hockberg. That guy is such a slimy piece of shit. He's what Helen would have become had she pursued the law. Wow. Because, you know, I love that one where Buck is bleeding, but not too badly. Like, even though he's been shot in the abdomen, he's like, he's bleeding, but he can handle it. And he's beginning to shiver. And she goes, give me your jacket. And he's like, but it's a kalfa. just give him the jacket by the way why doesn't Wilson call the ambulance for his man I know right that was weird yeah but yeah regarding Heather Glenn like I mean I did ask Helen that question but yes by all means no no no but Lady Muse which is a thing in the comics I don't know if I'm too pumped for it I'll be honest I read a load of Daredevil and then stopped and I've dipped in intermittently and so I didn't know oh, that lady muse is a thing, and I think we should shut it all down.

1:24:14I think it could be interesting if, at the moment she seems to be fully embracing it, and I'm not sure how interesting that is. You know, if she's fully lost herself, if she's fully going to the dark side, I'm not sure how interesting that is. If there's still an element of she's being sort of, she's conflicted or she's tempted by this thing or she's being taken over by this thing, then that's more interesting to me than just yeah she evil now end of story no more questions you know yeah so

1:24:44Chris Hewitt:yeah I think there's real room for nuance in there as well and her relationship with Matt it's also her sense of betrayal at Matt about him lying his ass off to her for however long they were together I think that's all really fertile ground and James you must slowly be willing to concede that she's become interesting no I shall not I don't like her I find her boring oh that's a shame that's a shame you're wrong and she will continue to prove you're wrong I think in season 3 the comic book thing is interesting I just want to talk about comic books for a second because Scarlett Panay said to me that were Matt the final shots of Matt and the final shots of Fisk in this hint very strongly at comic book arcs that they have had in the past and where they're going to go.

1:25:37Chris Hewitt:And because I'm a little bit disconnected from Daredevil, Amon, do you know what he's talking about? Like there's a shot. So the final shot of the season is Matt grinning slightly as the door shuts on him in prison because he's grinning because I imagine he's relishing maybe the punishment that he is receiving, but also he's relishing the fight that's going to come, that he knows is going to come. And Fisk is on the beach. Amon... I'm not going to lie to you, is Googling frantically right now. There's a comic which I just recently re-read, and I'm trying to figure out the damn title, and I can't figure it out.

1:26:15It's a daredevil.

1:26:18Chris Hewitt:Oh, this is so annoying. Is it an arc? Is it an arc, a daredevil arc? Advanced reader copy. No. Basically, it's a daredevil prison arc, which is really, really good. Is it like a Brubaker arc or something? Yeah. Hold on. I think it's Brubaker. Let me just double check. The Devil in Cell Block D, maybe? That's it. Okay, yeah, I'll do it again. I'm on. I was thinking it might be something like Devil in Cell Block D. That might be an influence going forth here. You nailed it, Chris. How did you know? Did I take the words right out of your mouth? It's incredible. It must have been why you were kissing me.

1:26:58Oh, what? Why did you have to make it weird?

1:27:01Chris Hewitt:You made it weird. Meatloaf. Meatloaf made it weird. You definitely made it weird. Amon, tell us about Devil in Sailblock D. Yes, so this is a really cool comic. Basically, in the midst of the comic, Foggy fake dies, and Adol has to team up with Punisher to escape the prison. It's a really cool comic. The reason why I guess it's being referenced with this show, There's a panel in the comic where it's Daredevil and foggy talking, and Daredevil gives a smirk because he is almost excited. Maybe excited is the wrong word, but he's... Everything is proceeding as he has foreseen, and he wants this sequence of offence to happen, and he's ready for it.

1:27:49Exactly. I've seen interviews where Charlie Cox, who's a massive fan of that particular comic, he added in the grin at the end himself to sort of nod to that so yeah as I say I think it's going to get very bloody in that prison

1:28:08Chris Hewitt:in season 3 until it's in Spider-Man Brand New Day in which case it will be no blood because it is a PG-13 well this is interesting because at the screening the other night me and Hannah were talking to a friend of mine Tom about Punisher Tom Percival about Punisher in Brand New Day and sort of what level of violence will we see from him and that character. Yeah, he has a nerf gun throughout. And I think it will be fine. I think it will still give us a level of violence that we're maybe not accustomed to in a Spider-Man film. And I'm not going to go full-on Punisher breaking bones violently that we see in the Punisher TV series or even in season two of Daredevil in that amazing but very bloody prison scene.

1:28:54But it's still going to be recognizably the Punisher, I think.

1:29:00Chris Hewitt:What's the BBFC rating for that film? Well, for Brand New Day. I mean, they haven't done it yet, but if it's more than a 12, I'd be amazed. I imagine it'd be a 12A. Or a PG-13 if you speak American. I'd be astonished. Yeah, it's going to be really, really interesting. It almost feels to me like Bernthal, because the Punisher, One Last Kill, one shot, I think, comes out next week. And we'll do a spoiler special for that, of course. but it almost feels to me like his payment for Brand New Day apart from obviously a shit ton of cash was yeah I don't feel comfortable playing this character kind of defanged so let me do my shit and I'm going to write it and I'm going to star in it I'm going to get my mate Ronaldo Marcus Green to direct it and we're going to be absolutely gnarly as fuck and we're going to really dig into Frank Castle and then you can cartoonize him in Brand New Day I think this is just supposition, I'm guessing, but a version of that conversation may or may not have taken place with him in the Marvel hierarchy at some point.

1:30:01It does feel that way, definitely.

1:30:03Chris Hewitt:Yeah. What were we talking about to get on that? Oh, the comic book thing. Yeah. And Fisk, do we know where Fisk might be going from comic book panels? Do they predict the future? Do we know? Do comic book panels predict the future? Famously, they predict the future. I don't know. I don't know that one, no. Okay. And that's exciting. Again, we talked about this in previous episodes a little bit, but we were going around and around and around again with Daredevil, Fisk, and Bullseye. The ending of this season shakes things up to give you that. It's a bit uncertain. I think that's a good thing. I'm very excited about where it's going to go.

1:30:38At the end of Devil in Cell Block D, he comes out of prison, finds somebody else going around being Daredevil. Iron Fist is Daredevil. So that might be your way of getting Iron Fist.

1:30:51Chris Hewitt:Do we think that's what's going to happen? And then is that a way of almost getting the genie back in the bottle? Well, this is what I'm saying. They're saying that they're not going to try and do that, which is why I'm thinking they're not going to do that. Because otherwise that would have been a convincing way of him. So actually, I lied. I'm not actually Daredevil at all. It's this other dude. But I meant it more as a way of bringing in Iron Fist to do something useful. Yeah. The first time? What? Who said that? You said Foggy Fake died. Do you think that there's a possibility here? Or is Foggy dead?

1:31:23Foggy is dead dead in the MCU. Unfortunately, I mean, I would love it if he was alive. As I've said many a time, I think they made a mistake killing him off in the first episode. I know that you guys disagree, but you're wrong. I'm dancing on his grave as we speak. Honestly. It's weird that we're filming in this cemetery, actually. Can we just go back to the studio? I don't like it. One character I do think might make a reappearance is Electra.

1:31:52Chris Hewitt:Oh, Electra. Oh, okay. And apparently Elodie Young who is the Electra actress may or may not be filming season three right now. Wow. That's a hot script. Yes, she may or may not. I can exclusively reveal Schrodinger's Electra. It's like Mr. Blonde from Reservoir Dogs. Either he's alive or he's dead or the cops have got him or they haven't. There are rumors that she's in New York filming season three. Did you start these rumors? No, no. They're online. And you can check. Oh, that must be true. What was Elektra's current status? I need to... It's complicated. I cannot remember what exactly happened to her at the end of The Defenders.

1:32:32Chris Hewitt:Didn't she die at the end of The Defenders? I mean... Did anyone stay to the end of The Defenders? I stayed to the end of The Defenders. How dare you? To be honest, if Matt can survive having a ton of rocks fall on him... I love rocks. To get to season three of Daredevil, then... likely that Electra is probably alive somewhere. Yeah. And just hasn't mentioned anything for the last four or five years. What about, what about, what's Rosario Dawson up to? Other things. And out of contract. She's being, she's in the galaxy far, far away. Doing Ahsoka stuff. Should we take some questions? Let's do it.

1:33:10Chris Hewitt:Sure. Some listener questions. I held off on listener questions until the season ended. You might argue I forgot, but, that's not true so I've gone to Instagram and Blue Sky I got a whole bunch on Instagram here so let us take them in the order in which I see them Lee Chamberlain 31335 Lee Chamberlain 35 me fail mathematics that's impossible was Matthew Lillard's character only there to set up season 3 now I'll be honest this was a Hugh Better Believer buddy that did not come true I predicted very, very confidently that he would be bludgeoned to death by Wilson Fisk by the end of season two. That has not transpired.

1:33:55Chris Hewitt:I think Matthew Lillard is in this because Julia Louis-Dreyfus said no. That's my principal guess for this because he's fundamentally doing the same shit. Yes, and the second most boring character after Dr. Heather. You said this last week and you were wrong last week and you're wrong again. Am I? James, wrong again. That's the name of your show on Disney Plus. Look, I'm happy for the guy. He's got his miles, he's got his one million mile airplane, good for him. Yeah, and he's teaming up with the killer. He's still in economy though, isn't he? No. Was he not? No. No, he was... Premium? Yeah. Well, not premium.

1:34:34He didn't have a pod. No, but on American flights he probably wouldn't because they're not that... Yeah, maybe it's just a short flight. Yeah, okay. All right. I'll let it go, this one. Oh, thank God. I didn't get to see his meal, so I couldn't really make a proper judgment.

1:34:47Chris Hewitt:Yeah, but if you're getting a million miles, then you're probably flying business. Hey, he might just fly a lot. I'm sure he does fly a lot. He's not unlike George Clooney in Up in the Air, but I suspect that he's flying business at that point and getting maybe double, maybe even quadruple miles. Gosh, what a time to be alive. Imagine such a thing. I didn't mind that character. I like that character, but there is a little bit of validity in Lee Chamberlain 35's point. Was he only there to set up season three? Yeah, it's a fair point. I wish he was folded into the plot a little bit more. Can I say who else I figured I wished was folded into the plot a bit more?

1:35:25Sure.

1:35:25Chris Hewitt:Luke Cage. So a lot, and I'm sure this was dictated entirely by Mike Coulter's schedule, but there's a lot made in this season of how connected Mr. Charles is. And then when Jessica Jones shows up, she's like, well, you know, he got me working for him and I didn't like it. and that's why he tries to have a kill at the beginning of episode six. But Luke's gone off to work for him and he's off killing people in exotic places around the world. And Charles goes toe-to-toe with Fisk and there's that scene where he's in Fisk's lair and he brings two of his guys in and then Buchanan Cashman shoots them both in the head.

1:36:03Chris Hewitt:And that scene, he would have, I think, put the shits up Fisk a little bit more if he brought a bulletproof, super strong guy in instead. and it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why didn't he have Luke Cage doing his heavy hitting? Maybe he was still very busy at that point. Yeah. I also put it to you that were I employing Luke Cage, I would not, in a fit of pique, try to kill his baby mama. I think that would end badly for me. That was poor strategy. That's the kind of thing that gets you pummeled into the pavement. That is very, very true. Yeah, he's not thinking this through, is he, Mr. Charles?

1:36:38Chris Hewitt:But I liked him. He's good. Matthew Lillard. And it seems to be that he's also in Superman, Man of Tomorrow. Yes, indeed. James Gunn has heavily hinted at that. James has just circled his calendar. He's even more excited about that than Iman, if that is possible. Funkster Cosplay. Do we think the brand new day trailer hints at a jailbreak for Matt? Yeah. It's possible. A jailbreak, you think? It's not very lawyer. When everyone knows... It's not very Matt. It's not because, you know, he's trusted the law his whole life. Would he then jail... I think no. But he is also Daredevil. So has he trusted the law entirely?

1:37:15He's in jail, right? I don't think he's had his custodial sentence. Presumably he is awaiting trial and he's not been convicted of anything. You would think he would want to prove his innocence in a court of law. Maybe not jailbreak, but given the hand is a factor in Brandly Day, maybe Spider-Man just wants to go to the jail to help him. Maybe a jail action scene is what you're saying.

1:37:39Chris Hewitt:Daredevil just happens to be in potentially. a lot of people are pointing out that Fisk should have gone to jail for killing a whole bunch of protesters and why didn't Matt seem to mind? Mrs. Lanks says, is Fisk's lawyer the best on the show? Because he got off lightly out of the carnage at the courthouse. Oh, his lawyer never got into it. That came directly from the AG, the Attorney General, offering that deal unprompted by anything, apparently. One thing that I think might be going on there that I wish the show actually emphasized and vocalized, if they were to put Fisk on trial for all the crimes that he's doing it would implicate them because Mr Charles is with the CIA and so if they go the official route they will also be voped into everything and they may want to avoid that which is why they're offering Fisk a deal again I wish that they would have vocalized that and made that clearer in the body of the show but I think that might be what is going on there I think there's some slightly spotty storytelling going on throughout this, and we don't really know sometimes the reasons why that is.

1:38:46Chris Hewitt:Maybe they didn't get all the footage they needed, maybe they couldn't go back and reshoot some stuff. But sometimes, at the beginning of this episode, it's a really interesting case in point in that we start at the courthouse. Well, we start with the dream sequence with Karen, but then she's in the courthouse, and Matt hasn't turned up, and Kirsten's a little bit like, oh, I don't know why he hasn't turned up. Your Honour. And we know... That's exactly what she says. We know... Well, she's Scottish, like Dr. Heather Glenn. And then we cut to Matt with Jessica Jones. And we know it's because he got shot in the leg last week.

1:39:23Chris Hewitt:And then he's talking about, oh, I need to put myself in the crosshairs, Fisk's crosshairs. So then he clearly has the idea to subpoena Fisk to make him appear as a witness. And so that's what happens. And then the next thing, he's in the courtroom again. But there's another scene where we see Fisk with Buchanan Cashman. And some of that storytelling doesn't really tally up in terms of timelines and who's meant to be where, when. And so there's a little bit of fudging going on. And part of that is also because of the fact that Daniel Blake was meant to be in this episode. And I'm sure they had to cut around that.

1:40:00Chris Hewitt:Michael Gandolfini was meant to be in this episode. There were meant to be scenes where Buck Cashman lied to the kingpin about having killed Daniel Blake. Those are now gone. So I imagine there was a little bit of surgery going on. But as a result of that, sometimes it can feel a little bit unfocused in its storytelling or a bit fudgy in its storytelling for me. But I still love the show. I thought it was fantastic overall. But I have quibbles here and there with where people are geographically and chronologically. Anywho. Where do we leave Cashman? Down but not out? He's wounded, but I am assured by several parties that he will be back in season three and raring to go, and his storyline hopefully will become very, very interesting indeed.

1:40:48I'm very excited to see where he goes from here, not only because he's got a connection with Lady Muse, who I assume is going to be a relatively big part of season three, but as I mentioned last week I think there's a conflict brewing between him and Fisk especially given what happened with Daniel and that could be very good TV yeah I don't know

1:41:14Chris Hewitt:there's a well is there a confrontation if he had killed if he hadn't killed Daniel and then lied about it to cover up which was apparently the original plan then I can see a real conflict brewing between him and Fisk he doesn't work for Fisk anymore one would presume so I don't know what that storyline is going to be for Buchanan Cashman going forward I wonder if he'll be her flying monkey instead Muses oh yeah Jimbo any thoughts? do serial killers generally have staff? I mean because I'm not saying it's a bad thing organisation is paramount if you're going to kill people in sequence in comics absolutely yeah so often is just here's a thought that's just occurred to me is the fact and I think this is maybe slightly fudgy storytelling is the fact that Fisk got a deal after having killed roughly 427 ,000 people in that corridor is that in some way a commentary on people who may or may not be involved in current regimes in certain countries in the world who it might have been thought once could have shot someone on 5th Avenue I would say it was impossible not to draw parallels between those things while watching it.

1:42:37I can't imagine it's accidental. Because this is all pre-Trump 2.0, but very much post-January 6th, where it's very much still in the American continent. So yeah, absolutely. I would say that there's an element of that to it. Like I said about him renouncing his citizenship, I think that was pointed. I think what they were saying there is you make it so this guy can't do this again. You know? Other politicians are available. The Senate confirming the impeachment.

1:43:04Chris Hewitt:Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, that kind of thing. All right. Just a thought. Anyway, I don't want to get political. Just a thought. Monk of Mochtra, who sounds Scottish to me, like Dr. Heather Glenn, says, should they have a break now for a couple of years and let it breathe before getting back into it again? Apparently not, if they're shooting already. I actually don't think shows should have a couple of years break. I agree. no so all the TV get it done yeah just get it done man move on they used to be able to crap 24 episodes out a year of great shit good shit and we've lost that we've lost it as a society yeah I haven't seen season 2 of The Pit yet but I admire them for making the season very quickly same thing with what Dan Fogelman's doing with Paradise right now which is excellent and yeah I would hope that more people follow in that footsteps rather than however many years we had to wait between seasons of Stranger Things or not.

1:44:01Chris Hewitt:Or Severance or something like that. I mean, Stranger Things is ridiculous as well because, you know, those kids are now in their mid-40s and they weren't when they started. I think they're trying to do the same thing with Harry Potter. They're trying to get ahead and I'm sure we'll be watching that. Anyway, Ramos1985 said, enjoyed the series but feel it would be better served being disconnected from the MCU and does the fact that Spider-Man exists in a parallel IP rights dimension undermine events. I think this show makes New York, makes Manhattan as a whole just feel very, very small. Like, I know that this is, you know, a lot of this went to it ever again, it's very much Hell's Kitchen centric but this is bigger than that.

1:44:45It is about New York City and it feels small in a way that Spider-Man's New York doesn't. Do you know what I mean? And not just because Spider-Man's swinging around in the fucking buildings. So yeah, this almost feels like a district rather than a city. Do you know what I mean? So it almost feels insulated from the larger storylines. But when you think about it, it can't be.

1:45:05Chris Hewitt:Well, the big question is, of course, why do other New York superheroes not intervene? I mean, there aren't that many that we've seen in the MCU to be honest. There's Spidey, Doctor Strange, who for this, he'd be like, what's happening? He's off in another dimension. That's true, he is with Charlize Theron. Well, he was last time we saw him, but I assume he's now back in the Sanctum Sanctorum. It could be in anywhere, but he's not focusing on what's happening down the street with the nails. This is street level. He doesn't give a shit about that. Yeah. He doesn't put on his cape for anything less than us.

1:45:36Not a cape. National event. Sorry. It's not a cape. Wow. It's a cloak of limitation. Get it right. For clarity and for the listeners, please sartorially distinguish for our listeners the difference between a cape and a cloak. I can distinguish the difference between normal superior capes and this particular cloak of levitation in that the cloak of levitation is a sentient cloak that Doctor Strange can command so we're saying a cape is something that's largely stupid and a cloak is something that can think for itself capes are usually shorter, cloaks can be full length so sort of jauntier I guess a jaunty cape I could rock a jaunty cape well it's nice that you think so I might do that next podcast One of the best things about Benedict Cumberbatch when he does these press tours for MCU films is that he will correct anybody who says cape all the time.

1:46:28He says, no, it's not a cape. It's a cloak. I felt duty-bound to follow his example. Is that the best thing about him? I said one of the best. The best thing is how he pronounces the word penguin. Penguins. Penguins. I have no problem with this being connected to the MCU, but I would like it to have a commitment into moving forward as a story. And I guess maybe the question is objecting to this tendency to reset things to zero. And I agree that that can be annoying. So I like it when we move forward. And I like it when, for example, they take the bunny out of the box and tell everybody that Matt Murdock is Daredevil.

1:47:07That's good. So yeah, I get the frustration, but I think if it's done right, then I'm all for it being connected to the MCU. What was the other part of the question?

1:47:16Chris Hewitt:It was Spider-Man related. does the fact that Spider-Man exists in a parallel IP rights dimension undermine events? Again, I don't, I mean, Spider-Man's another borough. I do think he'd be cross about the curfew, which I still think it's insane that we're supposed to believe that New York is cool with being curfewed. Literally the city that never sleeps. I don't buy that for a second. So yeah, that would have, you would have thought, like made him prick up his ears and generally take a stand and the actions of the AVTF as well I think would be quite Spider-Man provoking. But he has been out of town, right?

1:47:58Like he's been off spying on his friends at college it seems like from the trailer. But that's still in New York.

1:48:04Chris Hewitt:Is that still in New York? Are they meant to be at Columbia? I believe so, yeah. Or somewhere. From the trailer it looks like he's been full-time Spider-Man. Yeah, at the end of No Way Home he's definitely in New York. I don't think he would get involved in shit like this. I don't think this is something that would... You don't think? No, I don't think he would. Not the AVTF, I think he would. Yeah, I think he might. Given that he's not above stopping, you know, muggers, I think he'd get involved in this. But these are questions that the MCU has had and will continue to have forever. Also, the comics had this problem as well, right?

1:48:37Because it's like, why is it Spider-Man? Because it's a Daredevil comic, and that's why.

1:48:40Chris Hewitt:No, but in the comics, an artist can just go, or a writer obviously can then tell the artist or the artist can say hey to the writer okay anyway they're all equally responsible oh god help me help me oh god but anyway the writer and the artist can go oh okay I'm writing a Daredevil comic or drawing it oh god and suddenly Spider-Man's in it and I don't have to negotiate with Tom Holland for him to appear in this comic whereas obviously I think you just have to make your peace with it in these shows and with the films you just have to kind of go they weren't available for rights issues in this case or because we couldn't afford them.

1:49:17Chris Hewitt:And that's okay. I'm fine with that. Louis D. Strong says, after the trial, Fisk said, to me, to you, has Bach told him about the Chukka brothers? To me, to you, to you, to me. It's good. I hope he has. I hope it's the one thing he's told him about life in England. And we were all gathered around the television set watching these incredible brothers called the Chukka brothers. I mean, I don't want to destroy your dreams. Mishaps, hilarious mishaps would ensue every week. Does Buck seem like a guy who watches the Chuckle Brothers? Yes. Wouldn't he be a better person if he did? And you're evident that he's not a good person?

1:49:55The murdering?

1:49:57Chris Hewitt:Lots of murdering. Liberating, Helen, I think you meant to say liberating. JGGalloway23 says, Can you please do impressions of any of the Daredevil characters? I'm afraid I can because I really like to work on my impressions. In fact, I want to make sure I get it absolutely right. You could even say I'm something of a finesser. Finesser! When it comes to my impression. So I don't think we'll be going down that particular road on this episode. All right, should we move to Blue Sky? Sure. Hang on, I just need to get the Blue Sky train. Oh, here's a good one. This is from a Scottish Geek Guy who says, does the team think the apparent Fridgin of Foggy was justified and successful or was a bit of a cliche I think it was fine I don't love to see beloved characters killed but I think if you are going to do it then the death needs to mean something people need to be affected by it and I think that standard has been met here so it at least had reverberations through two seasons now of the show and if you're going to kill somebody that's at least what you want to happen I think I think if you're going to kill someone the LVP is definitely the place to start so yeah I can't with you right now I agree with most of what Helen said but I as I've said before I don't think the juice was worth the squeeze I think more was lost than gained with taking Foggy off the board and I think episode 5 which to me is still the highlight of the season maybe the entire series showcased how much I think this series would be improved with Boggy's continued presence I loved that episode and just the connection that he has with Matt unlocks so much for that character and I love that dynamic so much I miss seeing it and I would have loved to have continued to see it in this series but they had other plans, of course.

1:52:07Chris Hewitt:Quick question. And this is prompted by, so Fal Shopaholic has sent in a couple of questions and some comments, general comments. And she says, does it make sense that all the real bad guys, the AVTF, so Cole North, as you said, and Sergeant Al Powell, are in the same prison as Matt? And then it's something I thought, why are they in prison? What, the AVTF? Yeah, because they were working for, they were working for Fisk, and yes, they did unlawful things, but they were protected at the time, surely by the umbrella of the law as it was then. Did they go to prison just because Fisk has taken the deal?

1:52:45Chris Hewitt:Does that make what they did suddenly unlawful in retrospect? I don't think anything they did was ever lawful. It's just that the law was not being enforced. Whereas with Fisk not there, the law is now being retroactively enforced. Or aren't they going to prison for the murder of Hector Ayala? It could be both. for all of their many, many, many crimes would probably be the reason. Hector Ayala, the Alvarez cop with huge power killed. Yeah, in full view of a whole bunch of people. Yeah. And whoever, I mean, I'm sure the list is long. And distinguished. The list is long and distinguished. All right, so Val, shopaholic, says a couple of things.

1:53:22Chris Hewitt:She said the season two finale was amazing. She had a few tears when Matt talked about Grace with Fisk. But she was worried that Fisk was going to throw Matt off the balcony or grab him and see who survives if they both jump off. But she loved the season in general and wants to know what your favourite thing or things was or were about season two. Matt Murdock for the defence, Your Honour. Yeah, that was 100 % my favourite moment. That is, I said this to you guys privately, but that is up there with I'm coming to the cottage for the most air-punching line of the year so far on TV. That's a line from Heated Rivalry.

1:53:56Oh, I thought that was a line from Brett Mahoney. I just assumed that was one of his. One of his classic sequences from this series

1:54:02Chris Hewitt:that we all remember very clearly. Brett Mahoney coming back. Big, big tick from me. Ellison coming back at the bulletin. Oh my God. Big, big tick from me. But my favorite thing about this season was Buchanan Cashman. Right. Just generally. Just generally. Everything he did, everyone he killed, fully on board. Thank you. I mentioned episode five as my favorite episode, but my favorite thing, my favorite sequence has to be Bullseye in the diner. Oh, great. That was fun. Great opening. If you haven't killed someone with a crab, you're not even trying. That was awesome. He drank their milkshake. He drank it up.

1:54:38He did. That's one of the secrets is where, you know what? I'm watching that again. Automatic, immediate rewind. Yeah, it was awesome.

1:54:47Chris Hewitt:All right. Brewie, Chris, who I don't think has an underscore on Blue Sky, says, when Matt admitted he was Daredevil, great scene, great moment. Were you a little disappointed he just threw his cane about a bit and didn't start doing parkour around the corner. You know what? Yes. 100%. Well, now I am. One of the first things I thought of in that moment for Splits 2nd was, remember in Spider-Man Homecoming, that guy's like, do a flip. Do a flip. And then I remember that he has a bad leg because he's just been shot in the leg. Okay, fine, I guess. But I loved the moment with the cane. It was just so...

1:55:22Jack to cane or just the cane? I had so much sauce. And the way he called it is like, what's up? Any more questions? what now what are you going to say now

1:55:30Chris Hewitt:does that prove anything or it could have been just a lucky throw right a lucky throw a lucky catch if people up until that moment thought he was a blind man and he's doing ridiculous he is a blind man well yeah but um he's doing ridiculous throws and catches like that I mean I was convinced I'll be convinced in that moment it's like okay he's their devil I watched an episode last night of the unbelievable with Dan Aykroyd and there was a segment in that about a man who was, as a young boy, he lost both his eyes. And as a human, he has developed echolocation. He walks around making a clicking sound and uses echolocation much as bats do.

1:56:09Chris Hewitt:And Dan Acker was like, they call him the Batman. And it was, yeah, I don't know why I was watching it. Anyway. So, you know, I'm just saying that maybe Matt's senses could have developed to compensate for the loss of his sight and throwing a cane off the wall doesn't necessarily prove to me that he's Daredevil. If he had pulled Chris Reeve style, his shirt open to reveal a Daredevil costume underneath. Which he's clearly wearing, because how else does he change in the courthouse? Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of Matt's senses, I thought of something you said to me, Helen, a while back about Matt's senses almost being likened to Spider-Sense.

1:56:49because there's that really cool scene where Fisk talks to Matt while he's sort of sitting in the courtroom and Matt's in the chambers. But Matt sort of... He perks up and his senses are activated before Wilson actually starts to speak, which felt a little... I wish they would have edited that or re-edited that slightly so that the senses activate when Mac actually hears this say Murdoch. That felt a little weird. And there were more scenes in this episode of him sort of tuning sounds in and out across the whole of the city to sort of, you know, ping in.

1:57:29Chris Hewitt:You don't like that? I like that. It's nonsense. It's very, very, very, very difficult. I feel like hearing a room makes a weird sort of sense to me. Maybe because I had those handy visuals from the Daredevils film in the early 2000s. I can sort of buy a bit more than I can buy. You're able to tune in on one tiny sound of New York City. The thing that we all know about New York is it's not a noisy city. It's very, very quiet. He's got super senses. he has learned over the years to control his hearing. It makes perfect sense to me. For example, over the course of doing this podcast, I have trained myself that every time James speaks, I just hear a high-pitched buzzing.

1:58:11Chris Hewitt:It's amazing. It works perfectly for me. Honestly, I don't bump up against that. It reminds me of the scene in Superman where Lex Luthor talks to Superman. Oh yeah, that's Superman. That's different. Yeah, but he's got superheroing. Yeah, he's got more superheroing than Daredevil. Oh, that's true. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You fucking... That's right, I said what I said. Best not miss. All right, Brie, Chris, says, I think Bullseye was one of, if not the MVP of the series. Glad they didn't kill him off. Do you think he'll ever appear in any MCU property again? Yes, he'll next be seen with Bret Goldstein's Hercules and Harry Styles' Eros.

1:58:48He'll be in season three and maybe in... Do you think they'll do Thunderbolts or Dark Avengers and have him added to the team? I don't know I don't think so I don't

1:59:00Chris Hewitt:I don't know too much explaining he's too good not to use again I would say Wilson Bethel is terrific he really is absolutely terrific I did like you know his scene where he takes out his imposter which was an echo I guess of I think you're going to do that of season 3 of the Netflix iteration because he's obviously impersonating Daredevil from last chunks of that season yes but yes he takes him out with prejudice and then says poser, which was very fun. He is terrific. Last week I was defending Matt's decision to let him go because he didn't actually kill anyone in the last episode. But this episode he was just killing fools left, right and centre.

1:59:42There was never any way that guy was never going to kill again after Matt lets him go. It just wasn't going to happen. One good deed.

1:59:50Chris Hewitt:For me, Chris, Christelle also agrees with us that Peter Parker could be breaking Matt out of prison or that he might be in the prison and she says I'd like to congratulate the writing team for getting me interested in what the hell is happening with Heather Glenn. She also puts a little Scottish flag emoji which makes me very very happy indeed. When are we getting the Buck Cashman origin story says South Coast Saint. I could ask the same question and in fact did of Dario Oscar de Panay. Daniel Bennyworth Gray again raises the point about Wilson Fisk. If you've been offered a deal to simply leave the country because you're a bit corrupt and then you personally slaughter a corridor full of civilians should the deal stand.

2:00:33Chris Hewitt:Yeah, that is probably absolutely fair. Owen Brew, Chris, also said that this episode coalesced everything, that she maybe had been not on board with certain elements in the show, but that everything came together in this episode and made it a very satisfying finale and ultimately a satisfying season overall. Last thing, do you agree? was this a good season of tv overall i'm i'm more on board than i was last and i'm so doing air quotes season because that felt like half a season yeah uh because it was originally um so this does feel more like an ending this has more of a sense of an ending if you will but um yeah i still feel like it could have maybe done more mostly that that question about i loved the moment of grace

2:01:21a bunch of people and that should have been taken into account.

2:01:24Chris Hewitt:I don't think Matt knows that and I think they find that out after the fact. He's covered in blood. And also like he sees him do it. He sees him throw people down the stairs. Yeah, he kills other people in the corridor but then he also kills other people where he is standing. That's why Matt goes up to face him and kind of calm him down. Well, in the interview with Darius Gardapani there was another scene apparently after Fisk and between Fisk and Matt after that but then when they got to that location they were like no, this should be where it ends. so I think they were just kind of going hand-waved bygones just let it be and it works that rotunda really works as a nice location I think the episode is very nicely directed by Ian B.

2:02:03Chris Hewitt:Macdonald I'm intrigued to see what he and Benson and Moorhead with whom we also have an interview by the way which will also be going up as a separate spoiler special but fundamentally they were only talking about the first two episodes they directed but I'm intrigued to see what they and other directors will do for season three going forward. I love that Benson and Moorhead are part of the MCU now. Their work on Loki, their work on Moonlight, their work on this is very, very good, very, very interesting. And, you know, I hope that they get offered a film. I don't know whether they would do a film for Marvel, but maybe they would.

2:02:37First ever MCU show to make it to season three, by the way. Apart from Jessica Jones? Jessica Jones did, oh, actually did three seasons, yes.

2:02:46Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And, of course, it's on it twice Daredevil Daredevil yes don't worry Mon I'll make sure you're okay because I wouldn't I wouldn't keep any mistakes that any of us make in on the podcast Helen how are your powerful shoes doing you alright they are powerful I've got new shoes on you're like Leo from Twin Peaks alright okay I think that's it we all gotta go Jimbo thumbs up or thumbs down my thumb is up I enjoyed I enjoyed this season I thought it was good can I say one final thing very quickly this man's got to go the Newton Brothers who did the score for this I think they did a really good job of taking John Pisano's original score and modulating it to fit certain scenes my favourite track they released the score in two volumes and the first volume is episodes one to four and there's a track called Resist Rebel Rebuild it's the track that plays when Jack Duquesne and Daredevil are having their team up it's the best track on the score it's so well done And they've got the choir elements, they've got the organ elements, but they've also got the chance, the actual sort of chance from the fighting that embedded within the track, which really adds to the energy of the whole thing.

2:03:58So I listen to a lot. I highly recommend that track in particular.

2:04:01Chris Hewitt:All right. That was a quick version. I thought it was pretty quick. No, it was succinct and to the point, as was this podcast. And now we enter our fourth hour. It's time to wrap it up. Thanks, Jimbo. Goodbye. Goodbye to you. Goodbye. I'm off to my own personal beach to stare baldly out over the ocean. Feel the sand between your ears. Yeah. With my powerful feet buried in the sand. Goodbye, I'm on Warman. Peace. And goodbye, Helen O 'Hara and your powerful shoes. Thanks. I'm off to play with this mask I found. I think it'll be fun. The powerful shoe is on the other elbow, as they say, Helen. That's what they say.

2:04:38Chris Hewitt:That's what they say. And it's goodbye from me. I am off to write all 10 episodes of the Buchanan Cashman spin-off show coming to Disney Plus in 2028. Cashman and Carrie. Oh my God, that is in. To me, to you. Co-writer? Sure, I'll take that credit. I will take 90 % of the money. All right, thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.