Daredevil: Born Again s2 episodes 2 & 3

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0:36Chris Hewitt:Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt And welcome to the second in our series of Daredevil Born Again Season 2 spoilers specials That's right folks, the Marvel Studios Fanfare Orchestra Can mean only one thing We are back, back, back To discuss the further adventures of Matt Murdock and co This week very very special indeed because it saw a d d d d that's right a daredevil double drop two episodes dropped in season two and to celebrate this and to commemorate this d d d d d d d d d d d d d d help me is um not two colleagues of such lethal cunning not three colleagues of such lethal cunning. What, four colleagues?

1:23Chris Hewitt:I can hear you cry. No, no, no. Revise your expectations downwards. One colleague, and barely that. It's James Dyer. Wow. Hello, James. It's just me. It's just you. Just me and you. It's just me and you. Chatting the Matt and Foggy of the Empire podcast. Bagsie Matt. Shit! Well, I'm not going to have much to say then, am I? You may not make it through this episode. You are naturally the kingpin. Oh, I thought you were going to go with Bullseye. No. Big Poindexter energy. No. Yes, massive Poindexter energy. No, I'd say you've got big Fisk energy. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Put us all. Put us all. Yeah, why?

2:05Chris Hewitt:No Helen this week, so it's just me and you. Yeah. Yeah. Just us. Just us to talk about this double drop of episodes. So episode two, which is entitled Shoot the Moon. and was directed, of course, by Benson and Moorhead. And then episode three, The Scales and the Sword, directed by Solvin Slick Naim. A double drop is not unprecedented, of course, but usually when a show comes back, they'll drop the first two episodes. Yes. Or sometimes they'll do the last two episodes. It's unusual. So last week they had the first episode and now we have episodes two and three. Why do you think they did that? Unusual, yes.

2:46Chaotic even. Disorganized, possibly. You know what? I genuinely can't fathom the strategy here. It's an odd thing to do, because you're absolutely right. Sometimes I'll drop the first two episodes, maybe sometimes the first three, maybe if you're lucky. But this, you get one, and then you get two. And then presumably it's just one a week after that. But it's a slightly odd way to go, because it's not as if two and three are of a piece in a way that the other episodes are not. You know, they all run into each other, so there's no narrative reason for it, unless it's a scheduling thing. Maybe it's an Easter present.

3:18It's an Easter gift.

3:20Chris Hewitt:My theory on this is that the first two episodes directed by Benson and Moorhead and written by Dario Scarda, I'm going to say Scarda Payne, and I'm going to say that until I'm proven incorrect. Dario Scarda Payne, the showrunner. I think those two episodes are quite, they're very good episodes, but they're quite slow, they're quite deliberate, and there's not really that much in the way of action in either of those episodes. They're very much advancing the plot, advancing the characters a little bit along the chessboard. And episode three is the one that has the big action scene where Matt and Karen bust Tony Dalton and some minor supporting characters out of the AVTF prison.

4:09Chris Hewitt:And so I think they probably thought, okay, if we give you episodes one and two, together no matter how well made they are they don't really they're not really going to get your heart beat racing so let's give them episode 3 which has a really good and extended action sequence, I think that's the thing behind this I think you're giving them more credit than they deserve I think if there were a strategy here, you'd have got the first three on week one, and they'd have given you the two Benson and Moorhead ones and then go straight into episode 3 then you're like, okay, these are great oh, but now it's all kicking off.

4:44And that would wet your whistle. Whereas otherwise, if it did give you the very first one, which let's be honest, is not the most exciting episode. No, that's fair. And you get that standalone. If anyone's going to be put off by one and two, they'll just be put off by one and they won't come back for two. So I feel you'd have done all three if that was your concern. I don't think you would because then if you do all three, the expectation would be that it's kind of blocks of three now. No, because loads of shows do this. Apple drops this quite frequently. When they start a new show and you get the first three, boom, straight out the gate, week one.

5:11just to hook you and then they'll be weekly after that. So that's quite a common common way to do it.

5:16Chris Hewitt:Is there something to be said for them adopting the binge model and just dropping everything at once as they did with Wonder Man? I mean, possibly though I wonder whether then you're in close to original Daredevil territory where it's the Netflix 13 episode drop and I wonder whether they are trying to eventamize this a little bit. Not least because they have less of this content. When you're on Netflix and you just churn shows out every three seconds you can afford to drop them all at once. I think if you have fewer properties and you want to draw them out, you want to make them an event, then Weekly makes more sense.

5:46So I think that's why they do it.

5:49Chris Hewitt:Well, I do think, okay, so we don't know the full answer to this, but I will say that I think that it's a decent strategy. I will say that it's a decent strategy with this show, because I think this show, as I'm watching it, and I haven't watched past this one, we have the opportunity to, as quote-unquote critics to watch beyond this, but I've chosen not to. That's very restrained of you. Thank you, James. Thank you very much indeed. But I am enjoying it. I think the show is improving episode on episode as it's becoming a little bit more sure of what it is going to be. I will say there's no Jessica Jones yet and the marketing promised me a lot of Jessica Jones.

6:30Chris Hewitt:You cannot find a trailer for this thing without Jessica Jones in it. You cannot find a poster for this thing pretty much without Jessica Jones in it. Kristen Ritter is all over the marketing. Where the fuck is she? What's going on? She will be along. I'm sure she will, but she's not here so far. She's not. Not even a hint of Jessica Jones. Not so much as a whiff of a leather jacket. Oh my God, what is going on? Where is Iron Fist? That's what I want to know. I mean, that's the question we're all really asking, right? Like, it's all about Iron Fist. Yeah. Where is Danny Rand? Did you see the thing the other day?

7:05Chris Hewitt:There was a Comic-Con, some sort of Comic-Con somewhere. And Charlie Cox was there with Kristen Ritter and Mike Coulter. And the three of them were together and they were doing this panel, I think. And you're doing that thing where you pay to have your picture taken with them. And I watched them together and I was just like, oh my God. It just made me feel so warm and fuzzy for the Defenders and for that iteration of those shows. And then I suddenly thought, oh, where's Finn Jones? I haven't seen him in anything since Iron Fist. and it's genuinely a bit sad because it's not his fault. Iron Fist was not necessarily his fault.

7:42No, it was terrible. It was. Of all of those Netflix ones, Iron Fist was the only one I couldn't get through. All of them. I ran out of time. I can't. Life is too short.

7:53Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Mistakes were made. Yes. Mistakes were made. Mistakes were made. But I'm sad that it seems to have had an impact on his career whereas everyone else since has flourished. I mean, he was in Game of Thrones. He's done other things. But was he in Game of Thrones before? I believe so, yes. Okay. I mean, he hasn't got a credit since 2022, but he's got a couple of things coming up, including something called Canyon del Muerto, where he plays Charles Lindbergh, and the Fennery of Samantha Bird, which is apparently completed and waiting to come up. I hope he's okay. Yeah, he was in Apples Dickinson, you know.

8:27Okay. Yeah, he was in that, and he did the TV version of Swimming with Sharks and stuff. So, you know, he's had work. He's not, you know, hand-handling or anything. Like, he's fine. All right, good.

8:38Chris Hewitt:Now we've established that. I just had a moment where I was like, oh my God, I hope he's okay. But anyway, back to the show. Back to Daredevil, episodes two and three, because there's some interesting stuff that goes on here. I think we should probably gravitate naturally to the big action sequence at the end of episode three. I said on last week's show that, you know, they're either going to do, I guess, two things with swordsmen. They're either going to kill him as an example, this kind of Robespierre example to everybody, or they're going to bust him out of jail and he's going to team up with Matt Murdock.

9:12Chris Hewitt:In the end, they've kind of gone for the middle option. They've gone for the Fenn diagram of they've prosecuted him, they've convicted him with no evidence at all. I'm sure there's no precedent for that in terms of real world shit going on right now. And then there is a kind of prison break and there is a kind of tentative team up and we do get to see Tony Dalton finally as Jack Duquesne a little bit in the end of Hawkeye as well but we finally get him to see him strut his funky stuff and it was very very satisfying but that I don't know that appears to be it and don't because I know you've watched a couple of episodes beyond this so please don't tell me if he shows up again but it felt to me like there's a great opportunity here to have Daredevil and Swordsman begin to team up and build this kind of oh I don't know League of Vigilantes and he's like yep done see ya I'm out of here bye I uh at the risk of being slightly on brand here I respect the fact that Swordsman just gave no fucks he was just impaling people on rebars left and right like I'm gonna kill every motherfucker because I do and I've said this before I think the one thing I find maddening in these things is when Daredevil like beats people unconscious and then they get up again and then he has to knock them down again and then they get up again and you're like where is Frank Castle when you need him he was full Jumbo Womba put these motherfuckers down like it's genuinely so I missed him on a ship but yeah Swordsman scratched that itch because he was yes he had a fine line in impaling he scratched that itch he impaled that itch he did all sorts of stuff but it was it was a really good action sequence I thought it was good it was well done and you know again all the way through this series it hits quite close to home doesn't it you know you see all the people in cages and the extraditional stuff and the you know politicization of the courts arrested and locked up for absolutely no reason whatsoever, other than they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, or the wrong color of skin, or whatever.

11:05And Duquesne makes that comment at the end of the trial, isn't it? This is just a circus for the masses. It's a show trial. It's not even... There's no evidence. There's literally no evidence.

11:17Chris Hewitt:And they lock him up, and they're about to throw away the key, and luckily Daredevil comes along. And it's very, very well handled indeed, I have to say, that whole action sequence. It is. It also sees the arrival, I think, at long, long, long last of the new white tiger. Yes, that's right. Angela del Toro. Yes. Yeah. Who's been looking longingly at that magical amulet for well over a season now. And finally, she seems to have it. But yeah, some good stuff going on. Well, I think you need it. I think you need Swordsman and you need her because you can't have an anti-vigilante task force when there's only one vigilante, or it's just basically the anti-daredevil task force.

11:59And that feels a little bit like overkill. So I think it's good that they kind of maintain this idea that there are these low-level street vigilantes, you know, of all stripes, tiger stripes, in fact. Because, yeah, I think it's needed for the plot.

12:12Chris Hewitt:Yeah. You mentioned vigilantes. And I was very taken by the discussion between Karen and Matt in, oh, I think it's episode two, but I can't be sure now where Karen like openly brings up Frank Castle and brings up the Punisher who we are now pretty sure is not going to be in this season at all we kind of felt that from the off but the fact that they've announced that you know we knew he had his own thing Bernthal had his own thing but that is going to come out I think the week after this show ends maybe that means he shows up in the final episode I don't know but there is no Punisher in this when he was such a big part of season one.

12:57And it's interesting that he's being kept in the ether.

13:02Chris Hewitt:He's being kept alive in our minds a little bit. And Karen is kind of becoming a little bit more frank in her philosophy and her outlook. Ironically. Yes. Which is going to rub up against Matt the wrong way. Yes. She has a practicality that I appreciate.

13:23although she does take when she takes your man your what's his name his name is looks at notes Alan Saunders of course we all remember Alan Saunders the vigilante task force member when she takes him hostage where does she take him back and tie him up the Punisher's old safe house yes yeah

13:42Chris Hewitt:because their safe house is gone which means it's episode 3 when they have that conversation I'm pretty sure yeah their safe house is now just a house yeah I don't even think it's a house anymore it's been reduced to smithereens yeah it's a unique fixer opportunity but I think that's interesting like the kind of hardening of Karen Page yeah is interesting there's also a kind of we're running along parallel lines a little bit with Vanessa in that we get to see certainly in the last season maybe less so this season although the ramifications are still being felt of her taking on the bulk of Wilson Fisk's crime empire.

14:23Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And becoming a little bit more, you know, heart of heart. You know, when we first met her, what was she? She was a museum curator or an art gallery curator? She was always a moderating influence on Fisk. She used to, I think, temper his worst impulses. Whereas now that we're in season two, you feel like actually the opposite has happened, that he's pulled her more into his world. And she's become more ruthless and more criminally inclined. so it's like the two kind of bled into each other but I think he has ultimately had more of an effect on her than she has on him whereas you look at Karen and Matt and you're right like Karen is definitely hardened and Matt has not and normally this would be me going oh fuck it kill them all big up the Punisher you know but actually and while I may say that about Batman a lot of the time I like that Daredevil holds the line morally and I think for this character not necessarily this character alone but certainly this character in particular I think it's important because fundamentally more than anything else he is a lawyer first and foremost.

15:18Yes, he is. And the law matters. And it has to matter to him. And that's just that.

15:22Chris Hewitt:He also, he has his Catholic guilt. That too. Yes, he has the religious thread as well. But I think if he were to start, you know, let's be honest, practically, killing people to make his life easier, at that point it's like, well, who are you now? Because you are supposed to be someone who upholds the law first and foremost. You are, you know, an officer of the court. And I don't, I think that level of hypocrisy just wouldn't stand. It wouldn't be Matt as well if he wasn't in a position to psych-demoniously lecture people like Frank. Also true, but then it has to matter. On the occasions when he does, and I think this is important as well, on the occasions when he does wobble in his commitment to that.

16:01Where he nearly kills Bullseye. Right, when he throws Bullseye off the roof. That really hits hard because it's a big deal. He basically just tried to kill someone. And for Matt, that's massive for the religious reasons, for the legal reasons. and so you actually think, you feel the import of that. Whereas frankly, if Frank Carson had thrown him off the roof, he wouldn't even notice. He'd have thrown him off the roof and shot him in the head on the way down. Shot him on the way down. Yeah, exactly that.

16:22Chris Hewitt:If Matt does kill someone, can he represent himself? I guess he can. What if he had to prosecute himself? I mean, that would be awkward. But he's a defender, so you're fine. He doesn't prosecute. He's a defender, not a prosecutor. He's literally a defender. He's one of the defenders. He's literally and figuratively a defender. Bullseye is interesting. So with Bullseye, we're being teased Bullseye. We got to see him in this episode. We got to see Wilson Bethel as Benjamin Poindexter. One of my favorite things. I think while the first two episodes don't have a lot of incident, I think they have a lot of style.

16:59Chris Hewitt:And Benson and Moorhead as directors, if you know their work, and I know, James, you really, really like them as directors. Yes, I like The Endless and the other stuff they've done. And also their work on Moonlight. Yes, and they are very, very confident stylists. One of my favorite things in this show so far is that when Bullseye appears, we see it in the church, and we see it in the dream sequence that Vanessa has whenever she's imagining this conversation with him, and the color changes, and it goes deep purple on his face, and that's it feels like a practical effect it feels like something they did live on set and it's really cool and it's really visually exciting and I like it and I'm intrigued to see what's happening with this dude because he is off his fucking chump and but at the same time you get a sense that I don't know I kind of hope there's a Daredevil bullseye team up down the line as well because you know bygones right?

18:05I mean bear in mind that this happens in Clinton Church which is where he killed Father Lantham. Yeah, but, you know, bygones. Yeah, it's all fine. Do you know what? Quite good. Yeah, I like the archetype of the bullseye character where he's a guy who has absolutely no moral compass whatsoever, but he's weirdly trying to do good, but doesn't really understand it, and it doesn't come naturally to him. So he almost kind of has to be led by the nose to do the right thing. So like when he saves Matt from the Vigilante Task Force guys. Yeah. And he's kind of like, oh, you're welcome. like he's like I just killed a bunch of people but I'm doing good you know it's like I think I am quote unquote doing good yeah I enjoyed that he reminds me of Amos from The Expanse just like a guy who wants to do good but doesn't really understand what morality is

18:50Chris Hewitt:oh the only Amos I know on TV is Amos from Emerdale Farm and he doesn't remind me of him exactly the same character exactly the same character the other cool time they do the filter on Bullseye I've just remembered is when he offs the two AVTF guys in the lift or elevator if you're listening to this in America and he steps out of the lift or elevator and it goes it goes proper blue on his face that's a very very cool effect and he walks into the car park or parking lot if you're in America and gets into his car and presses his foot on the accelerator if you're in the 1920s or gas if you live in America we should do the whole podcast like this do they call it CassPod in America who knows they might do yes so clearly Bullseye is being set up for a much bigger role in season two than he had in season one.

19:39Yeah, he's a good character. I still will not have it when people say that there's nothing like super-powered about him. He is clearly a super-powered person. I refuse to have it any other way.

19:49Chris Hewitt:It's the same as Hawkeye. Hawkeye has no powers. He's just put in his 10 ,000 hours. Hawkeye is a fucking liability. Hawkeye is a fucking liability? Until he becomes Ronin. Until he actually, you know, gets his katana on. You say it pierced. when you say nothing at all. I don't know what's happening. He became Ronan. I say. Keating. Keating. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, then he's got some game. But up until that point, he is the dead weight pulling the Avengers down. Fuck you, is he the dead weight? He's like Maxim in The Prodigy. He's the vibes man. Like, he contributes nothing. He's not the vibes man.

20:26Without him,