Daredevil: Born Again s2 eps 5 & 6

25:17Ben Travis:Yeah, I think the latter. I don't think, she didn't strike me as being kind of marketing first, you know, like as sort of a marketing forward person. It strikes me that she sees the beauty in it for whatever psychological reasons, but that's art, isn't it? It's not really about the art, it's about how the art makes you feel and I think she says this will resonate with someone the way it resonates with me and the fact that it resonates with Fisk, I think, is what connects them initially. Because when she connects with Fisk over that painting in the original series, there's not a like, hey, I just suck at that guy and sold him a white painting sort of thing.

25:50You feel that connection instantly. I love that they connect over that painting. It's such an interesting concept that obviously is a hangover from the Netflix show, but I'm so glad they brought it back in this one. Also then, being in the episode where Vanessa's going to die and her kind of going towards the light, the whiteness, but that being reflected in the painting as well. It's like, yeah, so good. Ben, I feel your pain deeply right now. Honestly, I'm sad. I'm going to give you a hug after this. No! There's such good characters. No hugs!

26:22Ben Travis:Come on, no! Oh, I've got to crack. Snap. Oh, poor Ben. Oh, boo. I just love that they brought it back to that scene. And to see Vanessa pre-Fisk and get a sense that she was already kind of big brains before Fisk comes along. And you just see how right she is for him when he's going to walk into the gallery. It was predestined for those two. And the fact that he's not mad about overpaying for the painting. I think he wouldn't pay anything to meet her. So that's kind of nice. I liked that. I also thought there's a deeply cynical little bit of commentary there where he's trying to diversify. and essentially launder his money in the best way possible.

27:06He's tempted by Bitcoin. And then Wesley's like, no, it's too volatile for money laundering. It says a lot. Let's get into art instead. And that says a lot about the art market also, which is a mad, mad place. I've recommended this before, but there's a great documentary called The Price of Everything that I really recommend watching on fine art. Anyway, and then the death of Vanessa, I guess, is the other big question in this scene. Did you feel like it was well done? It obviously hit Ben hard. How about the rest of it? Yeah, it was well done. For everything Ben said, you know, that kind of fake out, is she going to make it?

27:45Is she not? And then Vincent's performance just fully sold it to me as well. I think it was really well done. Yeah. Oh no, she died.

27:55Ben Travis:Oh no, she died. Look, yeah, I'm just glad they had the balls to kill her. I think that's, I mean, that's heartless, but I do take what you're saying because I feel like Marvel generally has pulled some patience. They do wimp out often with death. And, you know, it makes the drama hit harder. It sends Wilson Fisk into a frenzied psycho spiral, which is ultimately what you need. Not immediately. No, but it will. I mean, let's be honest. It doesn't take someone who's, I don't know, seen the rest of the episodes to know that he's going to take this poorly, right? But it's interesting in episode six, it's made him detached from everything.

28:33He's kind of spaced out for most of the episode. You would, I guess, expect Vanessa's death to immediately lead to okay, everyone in my vicinity needs to die. Find him, find him, find him. To be fair... He's not quite there yet. I wouldn't, actually. I wouldn't expect him to immediately lash out in all directions and just go Jason Statham in Fast and Furious 6 on the entire hospital. was it six or seven when they were they first introduced start of seven start of seven start of seven

29:02Ben Travis:lest we forget the stages of grief which are sorrow and then mass murder exactly so wait which bargaining denial slaughter that's how it goes they are in James's book let's not ask too many questions it is scarier though to see Fisk be detached in that moment rather than going full ape shit it's like that's more worrying to see him just be like I don't I don't have anything to live for. I don't have anything to fight for. I don't like to see him lost in that moment. You know he's going to come back around to kill everybody mode. But to see him be so lost is also troubling. That's what kind of sells it in a way and that's what sort of makes it much better drama, makes it much better characterization, much better character building, but also much scarier long term as you're saying.

29:54Because that's what I think Kingpin is. he's not just a rage machine. He is not the Hulk. He is somebody who feels deeply, thinks deeply, and will then, despite that, fuck your shit up. And cut your head off with a car. That's what you're beginning to see through episode six. So first of all, you have him killing the Doctor, just straight up murdering the Doctor. Genuinely not sure how Buck gets him out of that one. I assume he throws the Doctor out the window. I don't see what else you can do there. So he's got that, first of all. You've got everyone looking at him during the funeral like, oh, shit.

30:32You then have the scene of him and Daredevil at the end of the episode, which we'll get to in a few minutes. But like that is, he literally says, there's nothing you can offer me and there's nothing I can still lose. He's just like, done. So anyway, we'll get to that. I want to talk a little bit, first of all, about some of the other stuff that's going on in the episode, because I feel like we're building, right, to Fisk versus Daredevil. let's start again with like this is where Daniel's really freaking out in this episode and this is where Buck tells him I can't get past Buck's cashman tells him to essentially set a trap set the barium trap for Bebe and find out if he can trust her and I thought this was a really nicely played episode for their relationship anyone else think so because you've got quite a lot of the episode basically in his mum's house on staten island having birthday cake yeah which is great like we've needed that for daniel to make him even more of a three-dimensional character um this is part of the reason why all the foggy stuff and what they were doing the supporting cast in the netflix incarnation worked is that we got that with those characters we haven't really got that with some of the new people in the show but with this episode we do and it leads to um not only more interesting stuff for daniel but more interesting stuff for the daniel bb relationship i mean for bb as well to see him in that environment which is how he sees him yeah yeah because she she is really using him i think i get the impression that he's more into her than she is into him she is getting more out of that partnership than than he is and but for her to see him on his birthday as mum's house is such like a vulnerable almost like little kid thing and for her to see him as a bit more of a human being and go oh I don't know but I also don't think she is I it's annoying me that she's not being more careful so um there is a level of like oh you see him more as a person but also I haven't really seen her reckon with that yet Yeah, I think that's true.

32:42So we have her writing and then deleting the text, giving the piece of information that he's given her that is presumably false. So she kind of thinks better of that. She sees his childhood bedroom and then I think, yeah, you're right, sees him as a sort of fully 3D person and kind of has some sympathy for him. She loves his mum, who has a massive Fisk banner outside the house, by the way, and seems to be involved in some kind of multi-level marketing scheme, which probably grounds her as a certain sort of person, maybe, who's always, like her son, looking for the main chance and maybe not quite finding it, actually.

33:21And then you have the thing where I think she does have genuine feelings for him and she goes to kiss him and there sort of is a moment of real connection. And then he pulls back because he's like, dude, I've found essentially the memory card in your pocket.

33:36Ben Travis:SD card or whatever it was. Which I don't understand. Does Wi-Fi not work in this version of New York? Do you not have WeTransfer? This is what we said the last week. We did. I don't understand this. What are we doing? But now on WeTransfer, even sending a free one, you have to put your email address in and that leaves a digital chain. Whereas an SD card is more anonymous. Unless you leave it in your coat pocket at your target's house. I think that's the one bit of writing that feels like we're in a TV show and we need this to make a dynamic. Because to slip BB, that SD card, in full view of Daniel is just unnecessarily dangerous and silly.

34:17And it feels very much like this is a TV thing rather than this is what would really happen if we were to do this sort of thing, I think, for me. Yeah, it's not wise, is it? It's really not. Yeah. So this episode also has... I'm going to cover some of the side plots quite quickly. We've got the governor now talking about she's withdrawing her support from Fisk because Vanessa's no longer there to moderate him. Again, someone who knows him well enough to know that shit about to get real and kind of trying to batten down the hatches before it really breaks out. And you also have this relationship, it turns out, between her and Mr.

34:57Charles. he turns up at her governor's mansion I guess back up in Albany to essentially lay down the law a little bit. And also to help and join forces with her to replace Fisk which is an interesting turn given sort of what we know about Mr. Charles and Fisk's relationship obviously that has now deteriorated because Fisk took all his guns away and now he's like okay I need to deal with you as a problem rather than try and team up with you. It would be interesting to, I guess, imagine what the conversations between Mr. Charles and Val are regarding Fisk, considering how things have turned now.

35:38I really like Matthew Lillard in this show. I mean, it delights me to see him anyway, obviously just scream and Scooby-Doo, the most perfect casting of all time as Shaggy. But to see him bring a little bit of energy to these characters, because obviously this is quite a serious show and everybody plays it very seriously. And to have a character who has the power to be able to be goofy and flippant with it and to lay put-downs on people, it's an interesting character anyway because it tells you something about him that he can talk to certain people in certain ways and not get his head ripped off.

36:16That he calls the governor a little fish compared to him being a big fish. Right. And then also at the same time, just for the tonal variety of the show itself. It's a flavor I like in the mix. I feel like it's a little bit of salt on a cookie that just lifts the seriousness by, if you sprinkle on a little bit of... You've had a cookie with salt on? Oh yeah, just now before we started. Soy? Have you had a cookie that's got like soy and sesame? Yeah, but it's also still chocolatey. He is the soy, he is the sesame seed that is highlighting the sweetness.

36:49Ben Travis:So he ruins biscuits is what you're saying. As a character, he probably would ruin biscuits because he's that kind of guy. But no, he makes the biscuit more delicious against your expectations. You don't like Matthew Lillard in this. No, I just wouldn't put soy on a biscuit. In a biscuit. I've got no problem with Matthew Lillard. You think that and then you try it and it's so delicious. Have you had one with tahini in it? It's the same way if you're making a chocolate cake, you should always add a little bit of coffee. It deepens the chocolate. Oh my God, you people are psychopaths. Look, this is not me talking.

37:22It's Ina Garten with me, all right? It deepens the chocolate flavor and improves it. You should always add either a little bit of coffee or a little bit of cinnamon. That's just fine. Cinnamon, yes. Coffee. There you go. Hell no. No one fucks with the Barefoot Contessa. Is that Ina Garten? Yes. Correct, Ben. Yes. Speaking of guns being taken away. We were speaking of Ina Garten, but okay. Speaking of the Barefoot Contessa. I was going to say, hi, Jessica Jones. Yes. I'm getting there. I have a list. I have a list. Oh, the gun has been jumped. Burying the lead. I saw you. I'm trying to build up to the big stuff, you know.

37:55Another TV hero like the Barefoot Contessa. It's Jessica Jones. Yes. So this is, I mean, there's a kind of almost a cold open after the credits. So we have the previously on Daredevil, we have a little bit set up with the credits. And then we go into this angelic looking child playing with a bunch of toys. Her mum goes outside in socked feet. And then we see a whole bunch of people groaning and being thrown around and generally suffering a very bad day. The child, meanwhile, picks up a grenade and starts playing with it until her mom comes and takes it away and reminds her that we don't play with grenades, which is good advice for all of us.

38:35It is. Noted. And then basically, yes, JJ comes back, has a confrontation with Daredevil. Somehow JJ returned. Not quite a confrontation, but she is a little pissed. She's like, you said this wouldn't touch me. And it clearly has. So she basically comes in for what feels like a one-episode cameo, if I'm honest, to take down the weapon. So this was a bit complicated. So let me see if I've got this right. So it wasn't the anti-vigilante task force under a man who I've just looked up his name and he is Powell, and I'm not going to forget that again. But this is not an AVTF thing. Charles's guys came to her house to take her down.

39:19And so she has beefed specifically more with Charles than anyone else. Yes. So she now comes to help Matt take on the AVTF because they have stolen Charles's guns and she's just like, let's just get all the guns out of the picture entirely. Correct. That seems ass backwards if I'm perfectly honest. Why have they gone to, Why has Charles' goons got beef with Jessica Jones over the guns? What does Jessica Jones have to do with the guns? It seems that Charles was like unnaturally slash naturally interested in people with superpowers. Now, there is the line about she said no, but someone she knows said yes, which is, we're guessing, Luke Cage.

40:04Luke Cage. So Luke Cage has presumably been away working for Val slash Charles slash whoever. and Charles has come after her because... I'm not going to lie, I did not follow the ins and outs of this. I was like, hey, Jessica Jones is back. I was so sad about Vanessa, but here's Jessica Jones. Everybody feel a little bit better. The kid's name is Danielle, we should say, and in the comics, Danielle is the child of one Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. Well, it appears to be the same.

40:40Ben Travis:Yeah, we're assuming it is the case, especially since they were, shall we say, intimately entangled last time we saw them. What, set it on? Super banging. Yeah, super banging is in fact the technical term for it. What did you make of the fact that her powers are compromised by motherhood? That's an interesting way of putting it. Because I think that is a way that reads very negative, which is a way that people could absolutely read this. yeah to say that compromise by motherhood is an interpretation of that possibly an accurate one but also one that reads yeah with a negative impact I thought it was quite an interesting thing to reckon with the fact that like to go through pregnancy and birth literally fundamentally physically changes you on many levels and so I thought that was just like an interesting wrinkle it also is possibly just like a power leveling thing we can't have a character who's just like mega invincible all the time otherwise the whole show ends because she solves every problem but I don't know I'd be interested to read people's thoughts on this whether they saw it as like a negative thing of like now that she's a mum she can occasionally have broken bones and things versus yeah just you know if you or somebody you know has been through that there are so many things happen to your body in the process of that that are absolutely insane, that nobody talks about until it's happening.

42:07And I thought it was possibly, to me, that's how I read it, of just like, it's kind of addressing that whilst also, as we said, giving it a reason to not have Jessica Jones be the most powerful person in the whole world. It makes action sequences more exciting and unpredictable in that regard. And again, until we know exactly what their explanation is for that, I'm willing to give them time to sort of... I mean, she literally does say it's since the birth. So I feel like the birth is a real explanation. I think we can safely say that's the narrative explanation for it. I agree with Ben. I think, you know, like I've heard the horror stories from all of my friends and family who have had kids, and it does fundamentally change your body.

42:47So I get that, and I get that it's interesting. But I do also feel like it's, you know, not part of the sort of fridging tradition of, you know, men get more powerful when they go through big life events and women sometimes get less powerful when they go through big life events in comics. So I think it can be both narratively good and sort of, you know, representationally not great. And I feel like it's a little bit of both in this case. You know, it's an interesting thing though to play with. And I get that, you know, having her be completely unstoppable gives Daredevil very little to do in the show that he is in the title of, you know.

43:27So the fact that she gets knocked down by Powell at one point gives him a way to, you know, actually contribute to the fight. So that's nice. It is quite funny that that fight begins with Jessica busting through the wall and Matt just uses the door. That was fun. Some people have to make an entrance. How do they get out of that warehouse? We never see. Matt's got his Billy Club, which he's using a lot more of this season and I absolutely love that. But yeah, I imagine that he, Billy Club, come with me. or Jessica didn't just like a super jump either way super jump okay I guess it was a fun fight scene though I thought yeah and I like how they built the power flicking on and off into the fight so sometimes she gets hit and it doesn't bother her and sometimes she gets hit and it's like oh shit they're not working right now or she'll punch somebody and be like ooh ow my hand which I believe is what happens if you actually punch somebody I don't think I've ever punched somebody no me neither but apparently it really hurts I completely believe that Ben Wait, have you guys punched people?

44:30Ben Travis:Superpowered people, no. Okay. Oh. Does Chris count as Superpathy's heart attack? Wait, Chris definitely is on a boat ride. That's not a... Chris isn't in the ocean. I hope not. Anyway. Yeah, anyway, I think that was a nice little scene, basically. I still don't get her rationale for Mr. Charles' rationale for going after her, but I guess all will become clear in the future. I just like that she and Matt are back on our screen. Like the Defenders, which had a lot of flaws, but one of the things they absolutely nailed was Matt and Jessica together, and their relationship is very respectful, but the banter has always been part of that, and to just see a few minutes of that again was like, oh, that's cool.

45:21That's nice. I've got to see more. I'm going to be honest. I thought The Defenders was all right. I only watched it a couple of years ago after hearing how bad it was. And when I was doing a Daredevil rewatch, I was like, do you know what? I never actually saw The Defenders, which is a key chapter to the main Daredevil story. It's like the Book of Boba Fett of Daredevil. Like if you skip it, you've actually missed a big chunk of the main story. Okay, but like people should be allowed to skip It is in many ways, Ben, the Book of Boba Fett of Daredevil. But you know what? Also, Book of Boba Fett,

45:49Ben Travis:not as bad as you remember. See, I was going to say, Amon high-fived Ben when he said he liked it. Amon, I don't think Ben's validation is quite the win you're hoping it is. I was with you, Ben, until you said, if you want to try and get more people to watch this thing, call us something, the Book of Boba Fett or something, it's not going to get people there. Defenders, honestly, it's okay. And it's only, what, six episodes? So it's not even like a slog to get through, like some of the Netflix shows are. I think it can still be a slog at six episodes. It's compared to Iron Fist, it's art, but yes.

46:17and the half of Luke Cage which never get rid of Mahershala or Ellie what are you doing it's just yeah the first seven episodes are actually genuinely great and then they kill off Mahershala and Ellie and then it falls off a cliff agreed but you're right like the dynamics between those characters that is actually genuinely quite well done in The Defenders with a load of bullshit going on around it and so to pick up that dynamic and fill in little tidbits of information of like yeah Jessica Jones has a kid now we imagine that's Luke Cage's kid they've kind of also gone on separate paths but we see that she has a relationship with matt still of like you said this wasn't going to come to my yeah back garden there's a cute little bit of how's your daughter kind of all right so we get like it's filling in little bits of gaps here and there and i liked the jessica jones initial scene i quite liked how low key that was i liked that she didn't come in with a big fight scene like the one with matt that it was like in this sort of domestic setting that It was a total switch up from what we expect from the show.

47:20It read to me very much like the start of Kill Bill. Like when we see Vanita Green at home with her kid. That was just what it read like to me. I think that's because I'm always thinking about Kill Bill on some level. But I like that we started there from like a small place before we got to the big warehouse fight with Matt. Yeah, that was fun. I do want to talk a little bit more about Karen this episode before we get to Matt and Fisk. because she's got a lot to do. So this is where she's really going off the edge. She is literally putting a gun to Dex's head and very close to pulling the trigger.

47:55She's flashing back to Foggy as she does it. And basically she's interrupted. We don't know for certain whether she would have pulled the trigger or not because Matt comes in and throws his baton at her head. Ouch. The gun does go off when he does that. I mean, yes, but he just threw something at her head. so I don't know if we can 100 % rely on that. Okay. I think she would have done it though. How pissed she was, was read to me as like, I was about to kill this fucking dude. And they do, they accentuate the moment by having her flashback to... Foggy. Just beforehand. I think she was going to pull the trigger.

48:33And she yells at Matt. She really lets him out. That is not like, oh Matt, you've ruined my day. It's like, Matt, you piece of shit.

48:41Ben Travis:And you let them live and people die. She's not entirely wrong. She's not. Which makes that scene so great. Yes, you keep choosing the wrong people over and over again. Yeah. But this is part of what I'm saying when it comes to making the subtext test a little bit. Because we have been now, as much as I've really loved a lot of Dead of, not just Born Again, but also the Netflix incarnation, there are themes that feel a little bit repetitive when it comes to Daredevil, Bullseye, and Kingpin, and around and around and around, we keep on going. And in the Matt and Fist scene, I think Kingpin says, what are you going to do?

49:22Well, we're about to get to that. I'm trying to link the two things together. I can... But that's what Kingpin says. He says, what are you going to do? Arrest me, you... You cannot. Kill me, you will not. Exactly. But the fact that they're actually speaking to the repetitiveness of some of the themes, I think it's a good thing.

49:42Ben Travis:But the thing is with that stuff is you understand the origins of it because in a comic that is going to go on in perpetuity, you cannot have your Batman, your Dead. I was killing the Joker, the Kingpin. Otherwise, you've lost a character that you need for your comics. Thank you. Thank you so much for saying that, James. It makes perfect sense. Like narrative, that's not how you write comics. You have to continue that. I think in these sort of shorter, unlimited sort of cinematic and TV formats, it's a bit hollow. Like it doesn't ring true in the same way because you have a limited narrative with a start point and an end point.

50:12Ben Travis:So you can narratively kill off characters. And so there's a sense of then leaving... And you should. And leaving pieces on the board does two things. First of all, it feels unrealistic. And I get it, weirdly, in Daredevil's case, because of his, you know, his legal background and his Catholic guilt. I get that it's a red line for him. I get that much more than with Batman. But let's not get into that. But equally, and this has always been the case, we've talked about this, when you leave a piece on the board too long, it just gets irritating. And sometimes you do it for good reason. and you do it because Vincent D 'Onofrio is fucking brilliant in this role and we want to see as much of him as possible but we're at that point where he's probably outstayed his welcome because it's been too long now as good as he is for the sake of freshness for the sake of believability you have to be able to move on so actually what I'm saying is kill these motherfuckers wow it's hard it scares me though because I genuinely don't know what this show is without Fisk and when they've tried it without Fisk it was not nearly as interesting.

51:10I don't know enough about the deeper bench of Daredevil villains and characters to know, well, they could really go into this, but they've done the hand, and the hand was okay, and Dex has been actually pretty cool, the bullseye stuff, but he doesn't have the big picture presence that Wilson Fisk has, and so this episode or these episodes really speaking directly on that cyclical nature of the like, well, you arrest me but you don't kill me makes me go, I don't know what the future of the show is because if they kill Fisk, I feel like the show might not be very good anymore. But if you leave Fisk on the board, it might not be good anymore.

51:51You can't have done everything. But I think this is a point, like if you are going to adapt comic books, because James is completely right. In a comic book...

52:00Ben Travis:Can I have that clipped, please, for my ringtone? On this one very limited thing. No, that bit is getting cut. Chris, you've recorded that, right? Send me the clip. On this one very limited point, he is right. If you are in a comic book and you're going to have this continuing thing forever, you do need to keep pieces on the board and you do need them to be around and you need people to come back from the dead or from an alternate dimension or whatever the fuck. Another dimension. But for it to be narratively satisfying as a movie or even as a continuing TV series, you need to make things stick.

52:34So you need endings as well as beginnings and as well as teases of future things to come. You need to have endings. And I think that's right. I think at some point you need to say goodbye. And it doesn't have to be death. It can be something else. It can be going to prison somewhere else. It can be going into exile. It can be whatever. But it does have to be an ending at some point. Because otherwise, the limitations of the comic form, which are that we all expect rather cynically that nothing will ever stick become part and we've already seen this become part of the tv and the film universes as well and that makes us cynical of every single death and it makes every death feel like it matters less and that ultimately i think we're seeing is it weakens your overall storytelling things need to matter so yes they do need to find a way out of this repetitive state that they've gotten themselves into and i think i think karen is wrong because I think vengeance is wrong and justice is better.

53:34And I think someone should hold you back if you are trying to be vengeful and kill someone. But again, I'm quite, I have Matt's background here.

53:42Ben Travis:I know what you're saying. I wonder whether also there is a comment here on the lack of accountability and consequence because, you know, not to draw real world parallels, but obviously there are quite a lot in this particular season. But as we noticed with the Doctor with Everything Fist does, there are no consequences because there is no justice at this point. The trials are a sham. the police belong to like a lunatic so at what point does justice become vigilante justice when actual justice is suspended? We actually want Foggy and Matt back in court at this point is what you're saying so I feel the same way and I think that if justice was an option I think Karen would be perhaps less focused on vengeance Yeah, I agree with all of that and I do like you think that Karen is ultimately wrong I love the fact that she's speaking on it though and having a shouting match with Matt about this because it's really great TV.

54:33And for Matt, like a lot of the interesting stuff, as you alluded to, James, because of Matt's being a lawyer and the Catholic stuff is that conflict between should I take this man's life? Should I not? Should I let the law do its job or should I take it into my own home? By the way, the Catholic stuff, there's no conflict there. The Catholics are pretty like pro-life. that's not very you know yeah but like that's the constant dilemma for Matt is part of what makes him such an interesting character yeah because he has fundamentally stepped outside the law to do what he does like he is a guy who believes in the law but also like every night he puts on a suit and he goes on and ignores it

55:15Ben Travis:he's chaotic good he is chaotic good yeah you're right and I think and that is a really interesting thing for him to reckon with and I think he does a little bit in this episode I think when he's talking to Fisk. I think he's getting into some of that, you know. You know, the stuff that we tell ourselves, this is about the city, this is about New York. I'm not sure that's true anymore. This is poison. It destroys everything. The city, the people we love, we have to end it because I'm not going to stop. I don't know how and I don't think you do either. I think he's acknowledging there that he is also guilty of some of the, you know, some of the same single-mindedness and some of the same law-breaking that Fisk is guilty of.

55:57Do you know, if he's feeling guilty, he should probably go back to church. Go to church, Matt. He used to hang out at the church all the time. All right, how was there? Once Father Lantham died, kind of... But he should go, I agree. Well, he started off episode... Well, he finished up episode five there, looking for sanctuary. Sanctuary! And then the AVTF fucking fucked it up. That constant battle to outrun one's nature, or whether they even can, has been something that has been run through all the dead level, but it recalls one of the first scenes in the first episode of Born Again Season 1, which is Kim Pin and Matt at the diner talking about this very thing.

56:41So yeah, it's been a heavy theme. I liked the suggestion Matt made that they both leave New York. Essentially, they go their different directions, and maybe that will bring balance to the force. You are New York, both of you. They can't. He's the devil of Hell's Kitchen, for God's sake. He's the devil of Hell's Kitchen, a very, very, very small part of New York when you look at it on the map.

57:04Ben Travis:It's a couple of streets. The daredevil of Orange County. He briefly did that in She-Hulk. That's true. Which, honestly, fair enough. but genuinely though what do you think the show is without Fisk if they ever went there and killed Fisk is there stuff that I don't know about that is like oh but they could do this and that would be a great daredevil run the thing is yeah I think they have a decent battery of street level villains that they can use because ultimately Kingpin is the iconic one but that doesn't mean that you can't flesh out and I actually think sticking with Kingpin is playing it safe I think actually I'd really like to see them explore different opponents, unexpected things.

57:48Ben Travis:Yeah, I think that's definitely the way to go. Who else is there? There's what, Mr. Fear, Typhoid Mary? They did Typhoid Mary in season two of Iron Fist. Oh, yeah. Nobody saw that. He's doing it. It's true. I can't believe I forgot that. It actually wasn't too bad. I think she was played by Alice Eve. Oh, yeah. It rings no bells. I can't remember any of that. I've blocked it from my mind. Season two of Iron Fist was actually solid. It's just that season one rubbed so many people the wrong way that nobody wanted me to check out season two. There is also one thing that they're kind of setting up here, which is maybe, is it Muse?

58:24Ben Travis:Yes. So Heather is still being haunted. So can we talk about Heather for a second? So before we get into the Museness and the hauntedness in this, what's with the whole kleptomania stuff that she's got going on? Yeah, I didn't get that. Why did she nick the jewelry from the box? I couldn't, I was, am I missing something here? Do I not understand something? Like, what was that about? I was wondering if I've forgotten something from season one of Born Again, but I have also forgotten it. She was just doing it for attention because she is the least interesting part of this show. I think you have exactly the right hand on that.

58:55I would love it if Fisk was like, okay, Vanessa's gone. I should probably go to therapy. Who do I know who's a therapist? Ah, Heather Glenn. And suddenly she finds that Muse was not the worst client that she's ever had. Wait, her name is Heather Glenn? Yeah. Yes.

59:09Ben Travis:As Chris says, the most Scottish person alive. Yeah. This new dynamic that she has with Buck, I'm still trying to figure out what that's about. Yes, because I know a man named Buck, and boy, does he like to have conversations over dinner. Get choked, apparently. No comment. Yeah, that was a thing that happened in this episode, and I have no further comments on it. Not worth musing on. No. We should very quickly, just because I do want to spend some more time on Fisk and Matt, fight. But there was also the sort of the riot developing outside City Hall, I assume. So you had a bunch of people there putting on their Daredevil masks, preparing to cause trouble, the AVTF getting more and more tense, Powell using the opportunity to really kick off some violence by shooting Saunders, who was the one who sort of was sympathetic to Daredevil and company and betrayed the AVTF to them, going essentially, you Freddo fuck.

1:00:08I know it's you Freddo.

1:00:10Ben Travis:You broke my heart. He didn't seem to be that heartbroken about it. But yeah, fully killed him. And then meanwhile, when one of Karen's friends gets beaten up, she goes to help and wouldn't you know it, gets herself stupid arrested. That wig was so powerful. The wigs have been cracking me up this season. Every so often when there's just a scene, and you're like, oh yeah, Karen's wearing a wig again. What a master of disguise. What a master of disguise. I liked that the killing of a nice AVTF guy pointed to the sheer hypocrisy of the anti-vigilante task force because you doing that is vigilante justice, you piece of shit.

1:00:52You've taken the law into your own hands. You can't just kill people. That's exactly what you're fighting against. But literally, Ben, I don't know if you noticed this, every single thing they've done so far has been vigilante. That one's especially bad. The shooting somebody in the head, like, especially terrible. And although the Riot stuff in this, I find some of that stuff a little bit flimsy. It doesn't feel particularly real. And again, I need to let go of the Netflix series, but part of what that show did was the City stuff felt very real, especially that first season of the Netflix Daredevil.

1:01:28almost felt a little bit the wire in getting into the systems and functions of the city and the political machinations and how that intersects.

1:01:37Ben Travis:It's amazing what you can do with 13 hours of runtime and not a lot of plot. He's only going to be in the suit in the last episode, so we need 12 episodes that's just legal. Daredevil season one is still the gold standard. We're not slagging, we're just saying. Gold standard for what? In terms of all the Daredevil that we've got. Yeah, I mean, you are not wrong. Season three. You are not wrong. Season three. Three is great as well. It is too long, but it was an incredibly exciting bit of television that was when it dropped. But it just means that then in this, when you have like, oh, the tensions in the city are building and now everybody's wearing Daredevil masks and shouting very vague, down with this sort of thing.

1:02:20When do we want it? Now would be nice. It was quite V for Vendetta when they started putting on the masks. I kind of agree with you. I think one of the things that's been clear this season and one of the things that's been a real contrast to the real world, and look, they didn't set out to show the real world to the degree that they have. Events have just taken place since this film was, or since this series was shot. But I find it hard to believe that New York, of all cities, would put up with the level of draconian measures that Fisk has put in place. Because I think what the last few months have made clear is that that would not be the case.

1:02:55and just the New Yorker, the classic New Yorker attitude, right, would mean they're not going to necessarily put up with a curfew in the city that never sleeps.

1:03:04Ben Travis:Seems unlikely. What are they supposed to do after 10pm? What would Sinatra think about? It's ridiculous. Exactly, it makes no sense. So I think, you know, seeing them rise up feels more credible to me than them putting up with a curfew, I will say that much. Anyway, let's get back to Matt and Fisk. I don't know how they arranged their meeting, but they apparently did. well done them and yeah they can't get past what they've each lost I guess, certainly Fisk can't even if Matt could I thought Matt did well to land some blows The knee rise that ends the fight is the comic book panel from Devil's Reign I was about to say that but it was really cool again I love that Matt is using the bully clubs in more creative ways this entire season that's one thing that the Daredevil Netflix incarnation never quite got right but I think Born Again has done a really great job and considering between the Netflix show and this we have like five seasons now of Matt and Fisk coming to blows and then heading apart again it's been a while since we've seen a real smackdown between those two it feels like a bit of a rare treat to see those two like really laying into each other and especially with Fisk in such an emotionally heightened state having just lost Vanessa like you really get the sense that Matt is still in a big way feeling the loss of Foggy but it is extremely raw for Fisk right now and so to see those two have a big smackdown with all of that context as well was like oh my god it was pretty cool I like that it took quite a while actually for Fisk to land a blow because he was just kind of blind rage at that point and Matt was just ducking and weaving and bobbing and like nothing was hitting him.

1:04:55Of course, he didn't need very many hits to have him like bleeding all over the place because he's very, very strong. But I like that it showed you where both of them were kind of emotionally in that scene. And I also like, you know, it kind of reflects the clarity that Matt had at the beginning of episode five. Was it at the beginning of episode five where Bullseye is trying to go, you can hand me in and you're in the clear and he's like, nah, I was there and therefore Fisk will not stop until he also has me. So, you know, I think this kind of ties back into that as well, doesn't it? I was really sad that he ruined the painting.

1:05:30The white painting got torn and bloodied up. It did. Which, to be fair, I wanted Fisk to be more upset about that because genuinely, like, that is the thing that he has left of Vanessa and it's not really drawn attention to through the course of the fight, but it really gets like torn up and covered in Matt's blood. And that has got to be almost like a sacred object to Fisk at this point, that painting, what it represents for him and for his relationship with Vanessa. Oh, I'm sad, I'm sad. There's been a lot of red on white recently. There was obviously Vanessa's white dress with the blood on it.

1:06:08There was leaving the red rose on the coffin and now red on the painting. It's very Shaun of the Dead up in here, basically. but yeah so what are you expecting for next week two of you have seen it Ben what are you expecting for next week I expect a fun time on my sofa watching Daredevil born again I don't know where did this leave off well Karen Karen is now in custody and they've recognised her because she's not got the wig on so it's going to be some kind of mission to get the wigs so that she can stick out of there without being detected I imagine we will see more Jessica Jones I think getting Jessica Jones in at this point of the season and the building up of the ire from New Yorkers about the anti-vigilante stuff means there's going to be some kind of coordinated vigilante pushback because that was sort of the promise of the end of season one was that they were all in Josie's like time to fight back against Fisk and we haven't really seen that payoff any of that particularly vitriolic leafleting campaign Yes, again, down with this sort of thing.

1:07:16And so I think we're going to see some kind of bigger vigilante plus New Yorkers fuck you to the AVTF. And I think Jessica Jones will be a part of that purely because she's back. And so why wouldn't they use her for that? Absolutely, just more rebellion all around. Also, have we addressed the elephant in the room, which is Mike Coulter, a.k.a. Luke Cage, putting a very spoilery picture on Instagram during the shooting of season three, and then presumably Marvel snipers came out and he very quickly took it down. But it gives some kind of hint towards where we might be going at the end of the season, which in itself, the spoiler raises more questions.

1:07:57So I'm kind of intrigued of how we're going to get there. But there is a particular outfit that somebody is wearing in a shot that Mike Coulter shared from the season three shoot that makes you go, hmm, how are we going to get to that place? To be honest, I don't fully blame Mike for doing that because before he did all of that, there were some official, unofficial snaps from Getty of the three of them. They were wearing the black hoodies that you try and wear when you're shooting a secret Marvel thing. But it was clearly all three of them all on Deadpool. So the news was out at that point. So I guess Mike just thought, OK, screw it.

1:08:37I'm going to do all this, all this. Probably should have checked with Feige first. but Cashman came around and said sore or trouble and he took them down yeah I guess so well we look forward to seeing more from him I guess in season 3 but in the meantime I guess he's away working with Mr. Charles what a name alright I think that is it for this Daredevil spoiler special we will be back I think next week for episode 7 barring further cruises I assume until then And until that time, we have other spoilers in the channel. Go check them out. We have more to record apart from Daredevil ones. So do keep an eye out for those.

1:09:20And it's goodbye from Ben. Goodbye. I am going to be in mourning for the rest of the week. Please respect my privacy at this time. He is wearing black, even as we speak. Actually, and Marvel. Because I'm in mourning. Black and red with the Marvels. You got red on you. It's not blood. it's just the Marvel logo okay it's goodbye from Amon peace goodbye from James for the last time for my soul you know that's not going to be the last time you know it's not the last time wow and it's goodbye from me I'm off to read up on some law free the poison tree your honour free the poison tree or you could be the devil's way I mean yeah that too sure goodbye

1:10:10you