Disclosure Day (ft. David Koepp)

21:35And that line came up on the chopping block, and I said, I'm never cutting that line, and I know I can defend it as a beautiful line because it's not mine. It's yours. I won't let you cut it. That is sacrosanct. Hands off, Spielberg. That was very—anytime, you know, six or seven words completely express. So, like, listen was one. But if you get a good, succinct line that really sums up a bunch of stuff you're trying to say, you better hang on to it.

22:01Chris Hewitt:Because one of the themes that's running through the film is faith and religion and the concept of God and what happens to that should the presence of extraterrestrials be confirmed. Yeah. And I thought it was really, really interesting when you're delving into that sort of theological aspect. Because you also have, you know, what Noah does to Jane, you could look at as possession. It's almost demonic possession in a way. That sequence in the motel. Oh, Stephen would be very happy to hear you say that because he said, you know, I didn't make it too obvious, but in that sequence, she's an angel and he's the devil.

22:38Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I felt that. I mean, it turns into a horror movie at that point, not just because she's holding a knife. But that sequence in the motel where she rises above sleeping in Daniel, that's straight out of a horror movie. I love that. Can you talk about exploring that with Stephen, how important that was to both of you? Well, it was one of the reasons I was, when I read the treatment and assumed he was writing it, And then as it came to me, I was very excited. I thought, oh, I'm the right guy for this. Because I loved the religious aspects. And I loved that he was treating religion, he wasn't mocking it in any way.

23:13He was talking about people's faith. And, you know, I grew up Catholic. I went to Catholic school and I fell away when I was 14 or 15. But, you know, I've been around nuns long enough to know that you can make fun of them if you want. but they've given their lives over to something that they really care about. And they have a lot of interesting and wise things to say if you listen. I think there are some terrific lines from the older nun who's Jane's mentor and terrific thoughts. And I also thought, oh, it's genius to have, you have to have religion in this story. If you look at any, most science fiction movies, anything that takes place in space, for heaven's sake, contemplates God.

23:58They just do. Because it's the, is it called the overview effect? You know, when astronauts go into orbit, there's something psychologically that just changes for them. Or when they stand on the moon, in particular, and see the tiny little orb hanging in the endless black void, it changes your perspective on Earth and on human beings in ways that it will never go back.

24:18Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And I think that that's, science fiction asks us to think that. And I think that contemplating the existence of intelligent life elsewhere also calls into account, calls into question, do we believe in God? Did God make that? Does this all result of the Big Bang? What are my feelings? What do I think about this? Yeah. The line, I think that Elizabeth Marvel has it about Jane calls her up and asks about, you know, we're God's supreme creatures. But on this earth, that's a really interesting line to focus in on. Somebody challenged me on that the other day and said, that's not in the Bible.

24:56And I said, it is absolutely in the Bible. So, I went looking Hebrews 2, Psalm 8, if you're curious. It depends on the interpretation. This is the great thing about the Bible. It can be interpreted many different ways and start many different wars.

25:15But what's written there is taking into account everything in the heavens, particularly angels. and so how do we view these other beings? They are heavenly beings. They're coming from the heavens. So I simplified it to on earth. It's written a number of different ways. But that is, she's correct in that interpretation, I think.

25:36Chris Hewitt:I like that again because again, if you're stretching the sort of the religious faith theological reading of the movie, you know, Hugo says several times, and again, I'm paraphrasing David, but it was always just the two of you. so is there an Adam and Eve reading almost in a way with Daniel and with Margaret not consciously but it makes a lot of sense now that you say it I think the fact that one of them was a boy and one of them was a girl I think that is meaningful so again not consciously but I'm glad it slots in nicely it does almost like the first two of a different facet of humanity and you and a sort of cut-off point between where we were and where we're going forward, nearly the people who are leading us.

26:24Well, and they represent two different sides of humanity. One is the empathetic and maybe artistic side, and the other is the scientific and math-driven side. Also, maybe traditionally male-female roles,

26:40Chris Hewitt:if you think about it. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about Daniel as well, because we don't have a lot of time left, sadly. but the movie starts in a really, really interesting way. As you say, Marker doesn't show up for, I thought it was 10 minutes but might be closer to 20. And the movie starts, we're in the middle of a thriller that is unfolding. And this is almost a climactic scene of a thriller. It is. And we're plunged straight into it. And the movie starts, I did not expect a Steven Spielberg movie. I mean, he's a man who's opened his movies in arresting ways in the past. I didn't expect a wrestler to be kicking the camera slash audience.

27:15Chris Hewitt:I don't think anyone does, which is probably why he liked it. They'll never see this coming. Well, but how did you start the film in your screenplay? Or did you leave it to Steven to figure that out? Well, it started at the wrestling match. Okay. I think I started, it was always meant to start with conflict. I think at one point that scene was going to be, you know, like a demolition derby and cars smashing into each other. So I started with, you know, sort of literal when worlds collide thing where two cars smashed into each other and then we pull back and see we're in the crowd at this thing.

27:50So similar. I think for whatever reason, cars weren't going to work out or were going to be too distracting or were going to, I don't know, too noisy or something. So they became wrestlers. But it still was meant to start with conflict. And Stephen always wanted it to start in media rests. we hit the ground running and we don't stop. A director friend of his saw it and said, I've never seen a movie that starts with the third act and then adds a fourth and fifth. Because there's so much action that has preceded this.

28:30Chris Hewitt:Did you work out the backstory, exactly what had happened to Jane with the device as well? Certainly, and how Daniel, over what period of time, Daniel managed to secret these documents out a little bit at a time, and he sort of great escaped them out of the vaults.

28:52Also, we had to figure out when Hugo liberated in vivo 17, who is the alien we see at the end. Yes. This is a spoiler. It absolutely is.

29:07Chris Hewitt:All that had to be, yes, we worked out all that. Oh my God. So in terms of that, in terms of some of that stuff, the device, we see three of them in the movie. What do you call them in the screenplay? We call them the device. We went through quite a few possible names. And in the script, I just kept referring to it as the device. And Stephen said, I think that's just what they would call it. You know, we can make up some, you know, it's the X-19, put it down. You know, but it all sounded a bit sci-fi. So we stayed with the device. And the idea that they're essentially all things to all people, they could be used for all kinds of different things, I thought it was really, really interesting.

29:46Chris Hewitt:Mark uses it in a completely different way than Noah uses it, completely different way than Daniel uses it. She uses it to essentially be partially an empathy machine, but also to render invisible an entire group of people and a house and vehicles. So essentially you could do anything with these things. We don't understand them, which is... It's a beautiful thing for a screenwriter. Pretty great. If you're a screenwriter. And any questions you get, well, we just don't understand the device. Well, why did it make that guy invisible, but it didn't make, well, he was holding it wrong. Why are you supposed to hold it?

30:24We don't know. Yeah, that's the thing. We felt like it was okay to have a MacGuffin you don't understand, particularly if it comes from another planet.

30:34Chris Hewitt:And the conversations between you and Stephen about the aliens' intent must have been really, really interesting. Because, again, that goes back to the idea of empathy. That the aliens have imbued Daniel and Margaret with these abilities to bring humankind to a different level. To save them from themselves, essentially. There's very few things more empathetic than that. Yeah. Well, there's a couple of references, movie references here that I think are appropriate. The Day the Earth Stood Still was the first time I remember seeing an alien who didn't want to kill us. Yeah. I might be wrong about that.

31:12It was certainly the first time I saw it. Yeah. There may be precedent, but the fact that he's here to tell us, you guys are at this really precarious point and you're scurrying up and you better be careful. I thought that was, and then the thing they shot him for was not in fact a weapon, but was meant for scientific study. I'd never seen that before, and I didn't see it again until Close Encounters.

31:40Chris Hewitt:Yeah. That an essentially sympathetic view of aliens who are, in our extraterrestrials, who are here to understand things, to explore, maybe to impart a message, maybe to kidnap some of our coolest people as long as they're willing to go. That, I then saw it again in E.T., of course. Starman. the Carpenter movie. Normally, of course, aliens have a far more malevolent intent. And I think that was, I find that unique to Stephen and possibly Robert Wise. And I think that, that attitude came back in this, that it goes, it stands to reason that if a species has survived for as long as they need to survive to have the kind of technology they need to get here, they must have discovered something that has protected them.

32:41And we discovered the ability to destroy ourselves, all of us, almost 100 years ago. And things aren't getting a lot better. And I think, what is that thing that they've discovered? What else could it be but empathy and understanding and the need to cooperate? I'm going to go on about cooperation for a moment. But everything worth accomplishing by human beings has been accomplished through cooperation. The agrarian revolution, and I'm going all the way back. I remember it well. Who doesn't? 12 ,000 years ago. The great discovery was, hey, if we plant these things and then we all harvest them because it's way too much work for one person.

33:27and then we all figure out what kind of jars to put them in and then put them in the jars and lift the jars together because they're very, very heavy and put them over here, then that'll help everybody. And then population exploded. You could argue that that actually ruined everything because before that we were hunter-gatherers and we seemed to have happier lives. But I don't know. I wasn't there. So since everything has to be accomplished through cooperation, doesn't our survival at this next level, to survive our own technology and our own impulses. Doesn't that need to be empathy?

34:01Chris Hewitt:Yeah, absolutely. And as you say, you have En Vivo 17 at the end of the movie. Was that something that Stephen always had right from the off in that early treatment of his? A character. That there was an alien. Yeah. Yeah. That there would be the actual appearance of an alien at the end. was, I think, I think also the, you've spent this whole movie leading up to these things, and it's not, you know, it's not a big special effects movie. It's a great adventure movie, and it's a great chase movie, and it's very exciting things that happen. But it's not a big special effects movie, but you're talking about aliens.

34:41So you've given them, now I'm quoting Wag the Dog, you gave them the Christmas card, you can't forget the fruitcake. You know, you gotta, you gotta come up with something at the end.

34:51Chris Hewitt:You're absolutely right. I love the fact that this movie exists in the summer blockbuster space. Because it is, yes, there are action scenes in it, but it is essentially a philosophical movie, it is a character driven movie, and I love that it's kind of weird and out there and unpredictable, but it does have action scenes as well. I can't wait till this is on home video, which I hope is years from now, don't get me wrong, but I want to watch the train sequence with the sound off. I've seen the movie a number of times, but of course in theaters, so the sound is on. And I want to watch just the assembly of those shots.

35:28It is some of the most meticulous action direction I have ever seen. The sequence with the train in the car is just stunning. Yes, it has great big action sequences, which is one thing when you start watching, when I watch the movie for the first time, I'm watching it and you're thinking as a moviegoer, even though I've been associated with it for two years, as a moviegoer, I'm thinking, hey, this is a good drama. these characters are really good. Oh, those are some good scenes. Oh, that was kind of exciting. Oh, this is fun. And then it explodes into a suspenseful sequence like the scene with Jane at the farmhouse with Scanlon, you know, mesmerizing her, so to speak.

36:07It explodes into something suspenseful or it explodes into a chase or an action scene and you realize, oh shit, I forgot. He's really good at that.

36:17Chris Hewitt:Yeah. That's a whole other quality to this movie. Yeah, but then the last 10 minutes of the movie is about communication and about people listening and about people watching their devices and watching TVs and the whole thing slows down. It does and that's an emotion. For me anyway the movie is extremely emotional and that's where the emotion floods out. There are two things in movies that always make me cry without fail. One is tap dancing. Okay yeah I understand that. If a sequence explodes into a tap dance and they're all doing it together in perfect time, I start to cry. Did you suggest that to Stephen for this?

36:58You know, I didn't. Boy, that would have put it over the top. Disclosure Day and the rest of the week. That's a sequel. The other is when someone does something to help someone else. It's so touching. And in the climactic sequence, the people in the control room in New York are slowly convinced that that they need to do this. And the part where the lady who's sending things out to the satellite feed starts linking in all the other networks, you know, the BBC and everybody else, I just, it makes me cry. I just, their help, they've accepted, oh yeah, this is important. We're going to help you get it out.

37:39Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And I find that very emotional. There's even a sense of cooperation in that scene where we get to see what happened to Margaret and Hugo has been meticulously building her childhood home. Which, by the way, David, is the one thing I guessed about this movie. I did not know where the hell this movie was going at all. But the little glimpses, at one point, Hansel and Gretel is mentioned and we saw the house was being built behind Hugo and I was like, he's building her childhood home! You knew. But I don't know why entirely. Why would anyone do that? Why would you do that? But that scene is really, really lovely.

38:12Chris Hewitt:The idea that we get to see why it's a red cardinal that appears to her initially when, you know, she's in the kitchen with Jackson. that scene is tremendous because you get, finally, Daniel and Margaret who are kind of drawn towards each other throughout this entire movie, cooperating when they place their hands over each other. Yes. I thought it was really moving as well. Yeah. Well, it's moving, it's human cooperation and they're wonderful actors in a sensitively directed sequence. But it also, I think, part of what you became emotional about was the structural symmetry. Thank God, these plots have come together and everything's really clicking now.

38:48I think there's a great satisfaction in, oh, this is how it all goes together. And of course, it makes perfect sense. Absolutely.

38:56Chris Hewitt:Well, listen, on that note, how do you feel, David? You've unburdened yourself of spoilers that you've kept balled up for the last two years. It could have turned into a hernia. There is. You know what? It is a little liberating. There's a degree of secrecy around every movie. Stephen's movies have a higher degree. And it's great to be able to talk about it. Well, there's many, many more questions I could have asked you. but sadly we are out of time but it's been an absolute pleasure David Koepp as always thank you so much indeed sir my pleasure Chris a delight as always thank you okay that was David Koepp disclosing about Disclosure Day and now it is time for Jimbo, Hells Bells and myself to dig deep into this film and guys can you tell me something because I was very positive about this movie I am very positive about this movie I think this is Spielberg's best movie for me speaking me personally I think that this is my favorite Spielberg movie since I think Minority Report going back that far.

39:52Chris Hewitt:I think it is really, really terrific. And I know you guys are kind of in the same boat as me. And then I went on the internet. Never do that. Never go on the internet. Because the movie's open now. It's been in cinema. So, you know, people have seen it. John and Jane Popcorn have seen it. And it seems to be attracting a fair bit of appropriium. Appropriium? Appropriium. Approprium? Approprium. Approprium. Approprium. That one. Okay. People don't like it. Yeah, that was an easier way of saying it, but I was trying to communicate with our alien overlords. And I wonder what... Because a lot of the questions we've got.

40:33Chris Hewitt:Right. Because we've got some listener questions. Are they hostile? They're hostile. And I haven't seen them all yet. And I've seen some that are very, very positive and like, yay, yay, disclosure day. But there are others that are boo disclosure day and her hunting disclosure day down with a pitchfork and torch and driving it out of the village. And I'm like, what have I missed? What's wrong? I do kind of get it. I loved this as well. I really, really did. And I love... But you're in the tank for Spielberg. I'm so in the tank. I like the Fablement. I like West Side Story. I like the Post. I love Lincoln.

41:03Chris Hewitt:Well, ready to play her one? Anyway, I think... Like everybody has... Everyone has an off day. Everyone has an off day. But I think that... I think there's so much about this that's so, so great. But I do get why some people would find it slightly infuriating to not have certain things explained clearly, not have the stakes set up clearly, just be dropped into media res. I understand why. That was one complaint. I'm not saying everybody who dislikes it dislikes that. I'm just listing some of them. I think some people find the ending... Pat. Pat. I think some people... I saw this. I was on our Discord.

41:43I have joined Discord. You've joined Discord. I joined Discord. I'm very, very brave. And some of our readers on there were almost angry at the level of optimism and faith in humanity that Spielberg has.

42:01Chris Hewitt:That's very Spielbergian. It's very Spielbergian. But I get that from the point of view of looking at the world. The world is not in its best place right now. Certain things are very bad. not everything but certain things and i think that there is there are some people who really struggle to believe that you know overwhelmingly humanity would genuinely be moved by the idea that innocent aliens have been experimented on there are a lot of people out there who were like we aren't that good we wouldn't care look at what we're doing in various places around the world we wouldn't care about aliens if we don't care about ourselves there's something to that but i i am kind of on the Spielberg train with that and it's going down the track and there's a car stuck on the side of it.

42:46But I'm very much of the belief that the majority of people would like to be good. The majority of people want to care and sometimes we get distracted and we don't do what we should and our governments don't do what we want them to do and all this kind of stuff. But it's not to say that we are actively malignant in the way that some people seem to have felt would be more. I always, the thing that always comes back to me when people talk about humanity as a whole is actually something that you said to me once, which I can't even remember where you got it from, was that, you know, taken on an interstellar stage, we are a planet full of orcs.

43:22Like, we are like the neighbor that, this is why no aliens have come to Earth. We are the neighbor that no one wants to knock on their door. No one wants, because we're all absolutely deranged who throw ourselves out of planes for fun and kill each other all the time. like we are we are the void bringers we're the noisy neighbor and all the aliens are staying away there is yeah there is this theory in in sort of like sci-fi writing that humans are space orcs like we have a relatively wide range of temperatures and environments that we can survive at least with certain equipment you know we have we do crazy things for fun you know we kind of we heal which not all you know species do this kind of stuff so there are yeah that that's maybe part of it But I also genuinely think that we, you know, our best intentions are maybe better than people are giving us credit for.

44:10And I don't, I didn't, I didn't knock up against the ending in the way that some of those people did. I do think there are some criticisms to be made. I think there's an element of starry-eyed nostalgia maybe for the days of a kind of monoculture mass media where the media was trusted, where, you know, it wasn't instantly being undermined. You know, a message wasn't instantly being undermined almost as it's happening, you know. I think there's an element of that that has been lost in recent years in a lot of places around the world, not all places, but certainly in like the US and the UK. And I think that the idea that everyone would be looking at the same newsfeed at the same time is a sort of callback to, you know, the space, the moon landings, right?

44:59Everyone was gathered at a TV. Well, first of all, it assumes that anyone watches broadcast news. But I think this was breaking through. People were watching it on their phones. They weren't watching it on TV. There's only one place they can go, to the local regional news station. I'm sorry. Is it, though? You have a phone in your pocket. YouTube exists. TikTok exists. Nobody needs to hear this from a local news station.

45:22Chris Hewitt:I think they want the authenticity of going out through a news station. Yeah. I mean, authenticity is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Well, it's more authentic than someone broadcasting from their bedroom on YouTube. I'm not sure that's true in this day and age, because the first thing anyone would have said is fake news. And I know they have that throwaway line, oh, we've run it through the AI checker and it looks legit. And you're like, I'm sorry, what? No, I think that was an important thing to say. And I think the thing is they are doing both actually at that moment. They are dropping it all online, but they're dropping it on the news agency servers.

45:54So they're dropping it on the news servers, but they're also then broadcasting it. And someone is fact-checking it as they go. As best as they can. As best as they can. How does one fact-check videos uploaded to the internet? And then that fact-checker is saying what she says, and the reporter, the anchor on the big news station, not Emily Blunt, is saying, as far as we can tell, these are real. But again, I suppose it's just, again, it's this day and age, isn't it, where everything is fake and everything is AI. As far as we can tell, this is real. This is a video file that's been uploaded to the internet.

46:26As far as what can tell, it's real. I don't have pixels. And I totally don't want to be that guy, because you can't put what if, but what if a film, because it's a science fiction film. You have to suspend disbelief. Except for me, this is a film that wanted to come out 10 years ago. It feels like if this had come out 10 years ago, I think many of the problems with it disappear. And I think it's twofold. I think one, obviously we live in an unfortunate age where even video, photo, anything you see with your eyes, you can't really believe. So insert aliens into it and you definitely wouldn't believe it.

47:00But also I feel that there was definitely a time when something like this happened and I do think the world would just stop and everything would just stop. I wonder in 2026, depressingly, if we've moved beyond that point at this stage. No, but the film doesn't get into that.

47:16Chris Hewitt:The film ends with the disclosure. As Kev said in the interview, is disclosure day, not disclosure day, and the three days that happen after it. We get to speculate about what will happen. And yes, I would imagine there will still be a fair amount of people who won't believe what their eyes and ears are telling them, and they'll go fake news, or this is AI. But there will equally be a whole bunch of people who will believe it, and whose worldview or galaxy view will be fundamentally changed as a result, and it will have a huge impact on humanity. Equally, there will be other people who still won't find their worldviews challenged by that because they will believe what they choose to believe, even in the face of that overwhelming evidence.

47:51Chris Hewitt:But the film doesn't do that. The film invites us to have that conversation. I don't think it's pat at all, the ending. I think it's incredibly open-ended. And I also think, I mean, a lot of these issues can be dealt with in the world of the film in the days afterwards. Like, the fact is, they had a physical alien in the studio. And okay, the people standing outside on the street would probably be called paid actors because they've also been filming through the window, right? So they would maybe be dismissed as paid actors and they're keeping it away from us so we can't see the joints. But in the days and weeks to come, that could be very, very, very easily verified by people who have a bit more stature.

48:29And that would help. It would help. But the point with all this, and the reason it can't have been done 10 years ago, is I think this is meant exactly to talk to the present moment. And this is meant to deal with this breakdown in our shared reality. That's what the film, I think, is about to a large degree. And I think that's why that ending has infuriated people because they feel like that's not where we are.

48:56Chris Hewitt:It has this incredible shared moment. And you might think, well, that doesn't happen anymore. People wouldn't do that anymore. They wouldn't gather around their phones in the way that they once did because we're all so divided in terms of what we consume. I mean, he makes a point of including sort of right-wing news outlets in that sort of montage at the end, right? It's not all just fake stream media, you know. But I think this film, like on a fundamental level, does talk about where America is and where America is divided and the fact that we are not talking about the same reality when we're talking a lot of the time.

49:30And that is kind of some of the stuff that the film's, I think, trying to get into. In the same way that, you know, Close Encounters was delving into the kind of paranoia of the 1970s and that sort of post-Watergate mistrust of government everything else. We've still got the mistrust of government here. We also have the mistrust of big businesses, specifically not a governmental organization.

49:50Chris Hewitt:It's a private, very, very powerful corporation that they're dealing with. And that's what's now manipulating us. And that's now what's controlling what we see. And this is an attempt to get past that. And that's really interesting in an age of Facebook and Twitter. It's also interesting that you have a film that ultimately sets out to challenge our perception of reality when obviously one of the major plot strands is you have a character in there who can fundamentally falsify your perception of reality. So what is objective truth through that? Yeah, I think the film is, I mean, maybe even more than Fableman's was, I think it's, or certainly as much, I think it's about Spielberg and it's about what he does.

50:31I think it's part of that discussion as well. I mean, the most obvious case being Hugo and the Coleman Domingo character is basically a director.

50:38Chris Hewitt:Building a set, yeah. You know, Margaret is the kind of the actor who's having to tap into everyone's emotions and communicate emotions to a level that is almost like erasing her own personhood at one point. You know, you have Daniel Kellner, the Josh O 'Connor character, who's kind of got all the information, got all the answers, but he can't get that across to people without her, without the director. He's kind of the screenwriter, I guess. So you can see it all as a discussion of film. I mean, even the fact that there's a train sequence, that goes right back to the Fablemans and Spielberg's first experiments with a camera.

51:15So I think it's part of that conversation. I think it's part of that filmmaking thing. And those issues of manipulation and controlling what we see and controlling how we feel and feeding our emotions back to us in a way to kind of make us do what they want. That's kind of what Spielberg's been doing his entire career.

51:33Chris Hewitt:So calling for a studio? how far can we take this metaphor I think we should take it as far as we can let's take it all the way I think we can take it quite a long way but I mean yeah because I do think there's you know an element of the studios trying to not make films that reach us anymore and try and control what we see but without reaching out in an authentic way so I think the metaphor works for him as well alright is there anyone that we haven't covered off with this metaphor because I'm enjoying this metaphor almost certainly almost certainly I'm not sure how the Eve Hewson what about Eve Hewson?

52:07Eve Hewson

52:08Chris Hewitt:she represents Bono's daughter she represents she I think this is another thing that people have knocked up against in the film and I have some sympathy with that the religion thing? the religion thing I don't I think it's a really interesting point to bring up I think it's a really interesting point to to raise I don't think it's particularly well handled yeah I agree I think from a religious point of view there is a lot of soul-searching to be done if suddenly we're not the center of the universe. But then we haven't been the center of the universe since the church accepted Galileo. Sure, from a physical point of view.

52:45But I'm sure there could be a relatively easy pivot, which is kind of, you know, nodded to in the film, right? God loves us, but that doesn't mean we're the only ones he loves. The fact that, yeah, the Mother Superior points out on Earth. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, that is your get-out-of-jail card. It's the redacted, director's cut version of the Bible, which has, you know, Alpha Centauri. in Genesis. Yeah, I mean, look, he created the heavens, so... Yeah, the word the heavens there is doing quite a lot of heavy lifting in Genesis. But yeah, I think A Case of Conscience would be a really interesting kind of reading piece for this film.

53:18It's James Blish, I think. Really recommend people pick that up.

53:23Chris Hewitt:Jim, but you have a theology degree, right? I do. So you get arguments with people, primarily. What's your take on the film at religious angle? Because I was really, really struck by it. I think it's really interesting. avenue to pursue. And as I said to Kep in the interview, there's a sequence in this film that almost becomes a horror film and you're dealing with pretty much practically demonic possession, right? When Noah dives into Jane. And that's a really freaky-deaky, you know, Spielberg's never really properly done a horror film. People are shouting poltergeist. People are shouting poltergeist, but obviously that was directed by Toby Hooper.

54:01Chris Hewitt:and you know it reminds you of what he could do should he choose to pursue that it's really interesting but the religion stuff I mean what's your what's your take on it how would the world would react I mean I have no idea it'd probably tear itself to pieces it's one that you'll go one of either way wouldn't it you'd either end up uniting people because suddenly your differences mean very very little in the face of an alien invasion or or is it an invasion it tears people apart well what are they here to do they're here to yeah that's what they said in V this is true we bear with you all we share with you all the fruits of our knowledge and then we'll eat you yeah desiccating their jaws to eat the mice that's exactly underneath their skin suits yeah oh boy look you know nothing good comes you've seen Independence Day that's what happens I don't know Mars attacks we come in V exactly that exactly that I mean who knows but it would require a fundamental more so for the flat earthers quite frankly but it would require a fundamental shift at how you fit into not just your worldview, but your entire schema, the entire framework of how you look at existence.

55:06And for people whose lives are underpinned by religion, there's some very serious retconning required. So, and I, really, that's the bit that I almost wanted. It to wrestle more with. I thought it was interesting. Mother Superior makes a very enlightened, surprisingly enlightened, for a Mother Superior point. No, I mean, not to much find a point on it, but it's not exactly fucking, you know, accepted orthodoxy, is it? But it's a fair point to look at it that way, and that's probably where you'd need to end up. I wonder whether there shouldn't have been some more hand-wringing and wrestling with the, you know, existential crisis of it all.

55:45Yeah, I think a little bit more of that because I think Daniel just dismisses it as not a factor. But I think there is, it would have been interesting to see. I think her character actually was really badly served. Is this the Elizabeth Marvel? The Jane character. Jane. Jane. I think she is given this thing to knock up against, which is totally fine. And she is given this objection to make. but we've already kind of got a sense that Daniel's a hero. And so we're kind of inclined to not go with her on that. And I think, I actually think one of the, one criticism I really do have of the film is I think we needed a little bit more establishment of their love story.

56:28Maybe when they get back together, because she is obviously meant to be traumatized. She's obviously, I understand why she wouldn't be like, you know, smiling and laughing and giggling to be back with him, but that makes sense. She's just been kidnapped. She doesn't understand what's going on. And she's understandably angry that he's been keeping secrets and that that has played a role in her being kidnapped. It all makes sense. But I think for her character to be as likable as we need her to be to get this argument across and really make it land, we also needed to see the deep affection that they have for each other.

56:58We needed to see the love that they have for each other. And I think that isn't particularly well brought out.

57:05Chris Hewitt:I agree with that. I think one of the, the, I saw this pretty much on my own with about maybe five other journalists a few weeks ago now. And so I haven't had the big screen, big audience experience with this movie, but I imagine where I to have that the moment when Daniel is warned by Hugo that they're coming for you, they're coming to the house, the crop circles go around Hugo and he realizes Jane's in danger. and I thought, well, he's going to have to leave her. But he decides to go back to try and rescue Jane despite the fact that Wardex are swarming around the farmhouse. I imagine a big audience would be going, what the fuck are you doing?

57:47Oh, yeah, they were, yeah.

57:49Chris Hewitt:And I think, I know why he does that, because he loves her and he wants to save her. He has just been told that Colin Firth is in her head. Yes, but also that's maybe one of the reasons why he wants to go back. But equally, I think you're right. maybe one more step one more step just one more step to just show why he would go back for her apart from obviously the fact that you know it means he can go around to Bono's house at the weekend which is important but I guess there's an implication here because we talk about this from a religious point of view and how does it how do you reconcile your theology with a universe where humanity is trivial but there's an implication here certainly from the footage at the end that you know the aliens have been visiting for some time, that this is not a new thing.

58:36So then it kind of, you know, it's not a huge leap to go back to the kind of ancient astronauts theory and say, well, how much of your religion is literally just these little gray guys? You know, did Jesus have an unusually big head and large black eyes? Was that maybe not mentioned in any of the Gospels? I don't know. But it certainly makes you question, because a lot of the things that we believe in terms of supernatural are kind of put upon the, you know, the divine, right? And then if suddenly you've got a magic macguffin stick that can make you do all sorts of things and suddenly it makes you question everything going back so I guess religion has bigger problems than just oh are there other life forms out there it's like well how much of our religion is actually the work of

59:17Chris Hewitt:these lives if we travel back in time using the technology we have right now to the stone ages we'd be seen as gods the time travel technology we have right now do you not have time travel technology no you know what I think mine's broken so I'll get andre on it thank god actually you know what if there's anyone who can crack it it probably would be I think it would be your husband I yeah that's an interesting point I mean maybe then we're getting less into a case of conscience and more into childhood's end the Arthur C. Clarke story where basically aliens come down and they say look good news you know you're part of a peaceful galactic civilization of member races and you can one day ascend to become like onto gods yourselves bad news we're outlawing for example bullfighting and also by the way religion uh in order to get you there i i honestly that could be something that then happens in this universe because the argument in that book was that basically religious religion is holding us back and separating us and you know this is the way forward this is a way forward for us as a species and this is the way forward for our towards our sort of spiritual destiny apart from anything else um obviously that's beyond the scope of this film and argument.

1:00:28But I do think it's interesting that the film is concerned with truth. The film is concerned with revealing to us a truth that has been hidden. So, apart from anything else, it may well start religions, not just sort of end them, or at least challenge them.

1:00:44Chris Hewitt:Margaret has that really interesting line, doesn't she? Again, paraphrasing, paraphrasing in the interview, but she says, I'm not ready to be someone's religion. I won't be a messiah. I won't be made a messiah. I think she said, I won't be someone's religion. I think that's what she says. and, you know, that's a really interesting viewpoint. She's scared if she knows what's going to happen. Right, which kind of feeds into, because it's a very humanist film when you get into it. It kind of speaks to, and what's that line where empathy is an evolutionary advantage? Yes. Which is a fantastic line in this film.

1:01:13And the idea that empathy is the thing that fixes us, that makes us complete, and that essentially solves all our problems. I think the inherent optimism in this film was kind of, for me, kind of best summed up in that. this idea that if we could all kind of put down all our shit and actually care about each other, then literally all of our problems kind of go away. Absolutely. I mean, there's so much that we spend all this time like talking and arguing about that just doesn't matter. If you had an ounce of empathy for anyone else, you wouldn't worry about it. There are so many big problems that we have to solve.

1:01:44And people are more concerned with dividing us, which is only possible because of a lack of empathy for each other. And, you know, again, this I think is talking to the present moment, I think, okay, the same problems existed 10 years ago, but not to the degree, maybe, that they do right now in certain parts of the world. So I think that's why it's a timely film and that's why it's meant for right now is that call for empathy and that call to actually acknowledge one another's humanity however, you know, clickily we start talking.

1:02:12Chris Hewitt:It's hilarious to me that this is a movie that goes, hey, everybody, we should be more empathetic and a lot of people are going, fuck you! this film's a piece of shit and I want it to die. How dare you? Well, maybe those people felt it didn't have enough empathy, for example, with the Jane character or with, you know, other people. Hang on, were you one of those people? No, but like I said, I think she could have been developed better and she could have had a bit more, you know, of her inner life given the attention that other people get, maybe. She could have been. All right, well, let's talk about some other stuff.

1:02:48Chris Hewitt:Should we talk about the last line? We talked about the ending quite a lot, but the last line is listen and is that where the story began am I right in saying I seem to recall him saying that that came first and then everything else worked backwards well the ending Spielberg always had that ending but the last line was kept right okay and something that they developed as they went along and I remember rightly he made sure that she didn't say anything else because again it's his temptation it's like with Age of Ultron yeah yeah you know you don't have Chris Evans at the end say Avengers assemble because then someone at the studio would go he should say Avengers Assemble.

1:03:23Chris Hewitt:So they only ever had him say Avengers and then stop. So she only ever said listen, to my knowledge. That makes a certain point of sense. But that line, listen, that's an instruction, isn't it? It's a recommendation, as we say in the podcast. It is an instruction. I was reading Richard Brody's review in The New Yorker and he was pointing out that's the order you give recalcitrant children. That's listen. it's sort of it is slightly exasperated almost it can be a command it can be a command rather than sort of a plea I think you know that's maybe being a little harsh on Spielberg I think it is a plea I think it is a a request of us all to listen to one another and not just the universe I don't think it's an order necessarily also can someone called Brody actually objectively review a Spielberg film a Spielberg movie it's a fair fair question absolutely and his first name Richard like Dreyfuss come on come on in the pantheon of great Spielberg heroes obviously we are aligned to Daniel Kellner at the beginning of the movie and to Joshua Conner and he's great in the film but I think the film's true hero is Margaret and she she's revealed to be the hero as the movie goes on but she doesn't enter the film for quite some time what did you make of Emily Blunt's performance Jimbo let's start with you because I thought but she was absolutely phenomenal in this film.

1:04:53She's got so much to do. She's generally phenomenal, to be fair. But yes, you're right, she has an awful lot to do in this, from seamlessly speaking Russian across the dinner table to, you know, channeling the whole sort of alien vibe thing. But she kind of carries that weight of ages, which is actually an interesting kind of thing to actively convey. How do you give direction to that as well? You know everything about everyone. you have the weight of all knowledge on you and frankly it's freaking you the fuck out but she has that but she also has that unhurried sort of directness where she's like i'm going from a to b you're in the way i'm going to deploy this truth bomb and then just move past it uh yeah i think it's a i think it's a great performance and she's you know you feel for her but you also you're kind of captivated by what she's becoming and i love the fact that they haven't fully explained that and i know we've kind of touched on this but i think if they'd spent too much and this is one of the things people criticise I don't fully understand it doesn't matter what it means what's an experiencer

1:05:51Chris Hewitt:but that ruins the film if I'd known those things it would have annoyed me like I don't need it there are three devices that's all you need to know the three devices and they all seem to do different shit it's like a universal remote it could do anything in someone else's hands in Margaret's hands it does a completely different thing than it does in Margaret's hands at the beginning it's a weapon don't point at me is it? well it does like disintegrate that dude I suppose yeah it does But then he touched it with that glove. Always glove up when you dive on someone. Yeah, it's like an infinity stone.

1:06:19Yeah, it's true. Don't touch it with your hands. Also, I should say, from an Emily Blunt point of view, when she does, and this got me in the trailer as well, when she speaks with the alien tongue. Like what I did. Exactly like that, which does sound like a porn trap, but nevertheless. What porn are you watching? Alien porn. By the way. But it's really, really like hair on the back of your neck chilling. There's something really disconcerting about that scene, and it's fantastic. Yeah, it's so well done. And she's speaking mathematics. Oh, wow. I don't remember that from my GCSE. At all. Yeah, I did advanced GCSE maths and still...

1:06:55Of course you did.

1:06:56Chris Hewitt:Of course you fucking did. Of course you did. Yeah, go on. Okay, throw us some at it. No, I don't remember. 63 plus 78. I don't know. Some numbers. Correct. No, I thought she was really good. You know I love the website GoFug. yourself yes uh the fuck girls were saying one of the fuck girls were saying that she doesn't like emily blunt's american voice she finds it really distracting and why couldn't she be in english i do have a little bit of sympathy with that but i thought she was excellent and i think it's a really delicate role i think you need someone who's as good at comedy as she is to really nail it because she has that kind of lightness of touch she convinces you that she has been a weather woman not just like you know she's not a tv anchor she's not a news anchor she's not like taking herself ultra seriously she's she's slightly flighty she's been moving around she doesn't know where she wants to end up you know she's not um this driven academic type in the way that that daniel is um but at the same time she also then convinces you as this person who adapts to these powers and finds a sort of like a peaceful serene center to herself which i thought was really really good yeah i guess i guess her uh arc in the movie like her transformation when she shows up at KCXE at the end of the movie and her floor manager or producer, that guy, suddenly just lets her in.

1:08:19Chris Hewitt:I thought initially she was using her powers of empathy or she was appearing to him or appealing to his better nature somehow through some super natural means, but she just seems to have her change of status. He just seems to be wowed or won over by her clear change in demeanor and personality. he literally saw her yesterday and she was like just Margaret the weather girl on our TV station and now she appears to be like a fucking like some sort of figurehead she has an assumption of authority you know they would say that it's not what you say it's how you say it and like if you want to if you want to look like you fit in somewhere just walk with purpose like she has an expectation that people will do what she wants and I think that carries her more than actually reading people's minds does I do think there's more going on, though, because he literally, when he's, like, it lasts even when she's not talking to him.

1:09:15Its effect is lingering. It's not just in the moment. You know, you hear about these incredibly charismatic leaders, and they would essentially bamboozle other people in the room, and people would agree to stuff, and then be like, why did I do that? I don't understand. And this guy is saying, why am I doing this when he's walking away with Hugo and Daniel? He doesn't understand itself. So I do think it goes beyond just her conviction. I think there is something else at that point that she, the effect that she has on people. And then the effect that she has as they walk out of the trailer. I think it's meant to be mostly, I have shown you the person you most love and the thing you most needed to hear.

1:09:54But I think there's an element of almost them being just overcome by that to a degree that you might not expect among hard-bitten military types. Well, also, is she, because she directly speaks to Colin Firth with the face of his wife and speaks words to him, she doesn't directly address any of the others, but do they see her and hear her speaking to them even though we don't see her speaking to them? Are they all hearing different things at that precise moment? We see her talking to several other guards on the way out of the trailer and she's appearing as different people to all of them. But everyone basically just stands there and there's quite a lot of extra people.

1:10:28That's it. So I think it's not just one-on-one, just, you know, wowing them with her presence. I do think there's something else a bit more supernaturally going on there. A little bit. I just figured that they all saw what they wanted to see and heard what they needed to hear. Yeah. Regardless of whether she was, to us, looking at them and addressing them, because they all seemed utterly... Transfixed. They just stand there.

1:10:52Chris Hewitt:Which is, again, a very Spielbergian thing. I'm drawn to mind of, There are moments in many movies where people just stand around transfixed by something and look at something in awe and wonder in Spielberg movies. But I'm drawn to a shot in The Post where Meryl Streep's walking down a staircase and all these other ladies turn and look at her adoringly as the camera moves past. As rightly they should. She's Meryl Streep. And that's a very, very Spielberg thing to do in terms of blocking the setup of a scene. I bumped up in it slightly in that one. and there's one guy I think we have a question about later on obviously the right hand man to Noah Scanlon the Colin Firth character who seems utterly unmoved she doesn't seem to be able to get through to this guy at all he's the one who chases him down and nearly tries to kill him on the train tracks yeah it's interesting that she can't really get through to him I think it's also I think there may be an element there of her gradually coming into the powers so she's you know it takes her a moment to get the passcode at the first gate from the guard.

1:11:57She's quicker with the second gate. When she walks up to the trailer, you know, lots of the guards are looking at her, but there's an element of whether you're inside the anthill now, so you must be allowed to be here. And when she walks into the trailer, she only really seems to transfix Noah. He tells everyone else to stand down. She doesn't seem to have the one-on-one effect with everyone else. And it's when she comes out, again, I think it starts one-on-one and then it sort of spreads out from there. so he maybe wasn't kind of targeted in that way does that make sense or he's a soulless husk of a human who loves no one and cares for nothing which is also possible because there must be some people like that was he your favourite character James funnily enough he is the true hero of Disclosure Day oh boy there we are he's trying to stop the Disclosure Day from happening but this is the whole thing isn't it that Colin Firth's character makes the Noah makes this argument that they're keeping this secret for people's good because everyone would just lose deaf shit and the whole of society, the fabric of our society would be rent at the seams and it would all come tumbling down.

1:13:01Would it not? But really, no, it's losing power, isn't it? The point is, is that their power suddenly becomes a lot less and the balance of power, and it would shift in incredibly unpredictable ways.

1:13:11Chris Hewitt:Whose power? The government's power. Well, the government, the capitalism's power, you know, their corporate power. I think it's like you couldn't foresee how the power dynamic would shift, but it would absolutely shift, and And that kind of uncertainty will definitely be a risk to their sense of control, I would think. Why would government's power be undermined? Is it because law is enshrined in some sort of belief in God? No, I think ultimately law exists because we give it power. In the same way that money is worth something because we believe it's worth something. What governments say means something because we lend them the power to have power over us.

1:13:47If you fundamentally shift how we see power and our role in the universe...

1:13:51Chris Hewitt:As in, it's revealed that they've been lying to us for nine or seven years? Not even that, because I think Close Encounters is all about government lying to us. I think this film is about everyone lying all the time and what is truth anyway. I think it's that if aliens exist, I think everyone takes a long, hard look about what the fuck we're doing, what is life. And I don't think you could predict what we'd have. There could be massive unrest and violence in the streets. Everyone could just sit down and kill themselves. you have no real way of understanding how people would reconcile that information with their worldview.

1:14:22And that is a wild card that I don't think any government would ever want to roll the dice with. Yeah, that is a loss of control. But also, like, it is a loss of control because they don't control the aliens. And they don't control, for example, what that, you know, fugitive alien... What's his name? In Vivo... Is it Vivo 17? Because he's on Jimmy Fallon the very next night, right? He's doing interviews, he's doing the whole circuit. But he's doing something, but they don't control who he tells what. If he tells the wrong, let's say, idealistic left-wing physicist the secret of unlimited power, and that physicist getting nowhere in the US goes to China, or that physicist goes to somewhere else that they don't like, they don't control that anymore.

1:15:11that's the kind of no there's an interesting by the way there's a whole other question about how Ameri-centric this film is and that's something I think again comes back to my idea that it's about the Trump era and it's about this division

1:15:23Chris Hewitt:so I mean apart from Francois Truffaut's character so is Close Encounters but there is Francois Truffaut's character and they do go to India and they do go to Mexico and they go around the world this one there's none of that this is all even the clips we see all seem to be American and the point obviously being is that they're saying essentially half of the American tech market has been propped up with extraterrestrial technology, which they've been parceling out piecemeal over decades, and suddenly, all of that goes away. Does that tank the whole economy? It does explain the Eiffel. It does. It really does.

1:15:53Chris Hewitt:It's always had the whiff of E.T. to me. Yeah, it's an issue. I don't, honestly, I don't know. I mean, this is one of the reasons I was fascinated to talk about the movie, and one of the reasons I've been so kind of discomforted, I guess, by people's negative reactions to it, because I think it's great that this movie, a movie as weird as this a movie that wears the cloak of a thriller and wears the cloak of an action movie but really its heart isn't in being either of those things the action scenes as good as they are and we haven't talked about them we should talk about them you know you can feel Spielberg and Kep struggling to make them organic and to fit them into the story organically and I think they just about to do but that's not what this movie is this movie is a weird little fucking movie that just happens to cost over$100 million because it's directed by the most incredible director of all time, Sam Raimi and James Cameron, notwithstanding, of course.

1:16:49Chris Hewitt:And it's designed to inspire conversations like the ones we're having. And I wanted to have these conversations because I honestly, you know, I am not a religious guy. I don't have any leanings in that regard. but I do I do want to believe in the existence of extraterrestrials I do want to believe yeah I want to believe that we're not alone in this universe there's no way we're alone in the universe the only question I think is about whether they visited us and Spielberg I think is on the side of yes yes they visited us and went hell no and then fucked up no they went they visited us went hell yes but these guys need a little bit of shepherding and they're not quite there yet the prime directive that's what you're saying they didn't want to violate the prime directive It's the Galactic Milieu trilogy you want then by Julian May.

1:17:37My God, this is becoming Helen's book club. Oh, my God. Start with the many-coloured land. Yes, do. Although that's really the Sag of the Exiles, James. Sorry, Helen. Sorry, it's a rookie error. Rookie error. Anyway, the point is, I think that I don't, I'm kind of with you. I'm not religious. I don't have that sort of existential angst about aliens. I am at most open-minded on whether they have visited us, but I'm confident that they exist out there somewhere because it's a great big galaxy and just, you know, the law of averages says that they do.

1:18:10Chris Hewitt:If we were all that there was, that would be incredibly bleak. It would feel wasteful, yeah, and I don't think that's the case. Because, again, is it the Fermi paradox, which either says that we haven't heard from aliens because either there are none or they died out because they got to the stage that we got to technologically and then killed themselves? That's possible. There's also the dark forest theory. Oh, that's the scary one. If you really want to freak yourself out, read the Shishin Liu. That's Shishin Liu's Three Body Problem series. But the idea is basically there are way powerful aliens out there who stamp on anybody who picks up because the energy and the resources of the universe are finite and they're not willing to share.

1:18:50And if you make too much noise, they'll come and stomp, find you. Stomp, stomp, stomp. Stomp, stomp, stomp. But then they'll be like, oh, good, we're not alone.

1:18:58Chris Hewitt:Scratch. That would be bad. At least I'd be happy about that. But as someone who's not religious, I don't think it would affect me in that way. But it would certainly have an impact. I don't know that I'd want to rebel against the government. I don't think it would change anything for me fundamentally in terms of my day-to-day life. But the question is, it could unite us and it could divide us. And I think it's impossible to say what it would do. Now, this film, which has this exercise in brinkmanship at the end, where we're on the cusp of World War III, and the idea is that suddenly re-evaluating what we mean to each other as humans brings us back from the brink, because this widens our worldview, makes it a universal view.

1:19:35Yes. And that's the most positive reading of a human reaction to this. Yeah. But I would like to think that our kind of, you know, territorial squabbles would seem so insignificant in the face of this that it would make you re-evaluate it. I do think that, weirdly, you're less likely to have that effect from these benevolent ET empaths than you would do then, say, Independence Day happens. Then I think all the wars end in a fucking hurry. That's a great unifier, isn't it? Yeah, that is. To an extent. The other thing is, the other way of looking at it, is if there are benevolent empaths, especially with faster-than-light technology, assuming they have that, which we don't know, but let's speculate, then that takes away the resource shortage, potentially.

1:20:19So there's less to fight over. So there's less to fight over, or there's more to share, and nothing, no need to fight over. That's the sort of federation model, potentially. So that's the sort of utopian angle on this. That's the best case scenario for day two after this. What's the dystopian angle? Well, the dystopian angle is the dark forest. Yeah, or coming to eat us. Yeah. But I think... It'll be quick. I think these are E.T. aliens, not war-of-the-world aliens. This is, you know, this is clearly Spielberg at his more optimistic. It's Spielberg, not Emmerich, I think, in this. Yes. So I think if we're assuming their benevolence and if we're assuming that they have technology that could help us deal with, for example, energy crises, pollution, things like that, that does change our outlook as a world, and that does give us reasons to hope, and that does give us reasons to move away from this nihilism that I think is a big part of our militarism.

1:21:18Yeah. To, again, quote Fox Mulder, I want to believe that this is how humanity would react. I worry it wouldn't be. There would definitely be the minorities going nuts the next day.

1:21:32Chris Hewitt:Oh, someone would try and kill that little alien. Yeah, he's going to have to be spirited out of that studio and really carefully hidden away again. I think a mass of people would be like, oh, great, there are aliens out there and they like us. Yeah, and now we might have one day the means to go to other planets. We might have buddies. We might have buddies. and it might help things because it might turn us around environmentally. You never know. You never know. It might turn people's mindsets around. I think it's a good thing. I choose, Jimbo, you're looking at me with a bemused smirk on your face.

1:22:06Chris Hewitt:That's my default expression. I know, but I choose to be optimistic about this sort of stuff. Have you seen that climate scientists have now said we won't hit the worst case scenario of four degree rise in climate change? Yes, which will cause all of the climate scientists to say, see, we told you it was rubbish. Yeah, I mean, we're still looking at 2.8 if we don't do more, but we're, you know, 4 is off the table right now because we've moved enough stuff to renewables. So good things can happen. And all because of the Empire podcast. That's right. Wow. We have done this. We did this? Yeah. Okay, great for us.

1:22:38Chris Hewitt:We're a force for good. Take your hand, put it behind your back, and pat yourself on the back. Okay, yeah. I'm not going to do that. But my point is, good things can happen too. We've got to be optimistic. good things can happen too we have a bunch of questions before we take those questions is there anything else you'd like to talk about I talked about the action scenes and how they're organic-ish the wrestling is great I do feel like what a way to start it's quite idiocracy isn't it I do think that there is I wonder how much Daniel and Margaret's actions in particular are being guided by whatever is in their brain I feel like when Daniel runs back towards the cars to get to the house to get to Jane.

1:23:23He's going, at one point, what am I doing? He's kind of muttering it under his breath. Because we, as an audience, are going, what the fuck are you doing? It's good.

1:23:30Chris Hewitt:He does voice that. There's an audience going, what the fuck? And he literally says it. Dude, you are literally on the hill. You could go that way back over the hill. And they would never see you. Because they're all looking the other way. Very, very, Metal Gear Solid. Yeah, it was very much like you expected an exclamation mark to pop up over one of their heads. I did feel like that was not just romantic love I thought that was maybe some do you think yeah I wondered about that I've seen the film twice and I still don't 100 % know with that because it's so stupid and he seems so uncomfortable with what he's doing I don't I didn't get that sense at all maybe that he's being compelled maybe there I'm being cynical in some fashion yeah maybe you are it's the power of love Helen you should believe in the power of love okay I'll try I'll try and it's a curious thing make a one man weep make another man sing thanks Huey Change a hog to a little white dove.

1:24:21Chris Hewitt:More than a feeling, that's the power of love. Interesting also that she uses the crucifix to like stab herself basically to kind of try and fight the control. Metaphor. I like that. And I like that Daniel knows that she's being dived on. Which is not something you ever really want to hear about your girlfriend. But also still reaches, like is able to reach her at that point. Wow. I hadn't thought of that dimension. I've got to be more careful of your trigger words. Trigger. Only foes and horses. Although, with the diving, we should say, there were a couple of moments, like, for example, when he scours the hotel room for any kind of identifying and yet holds on to one and just puts it in.

1:25:09Chris Hewitt:I think because he was being compelled by whatever force was implanted in his head all those years ago to act like an eejit when the plot required it. No, but it's because he does. He absolutely does that. And then he just falls asleep with the dress conveniently in his hand. Although that bit where she rises up and her eyes are in different color. Oh, that's great. It's like, that's proper fucking exorcist stuff. I really like that. First time I had to really, I didn't remember what original eye color was a couple of times. And second time it was really interesting to see exactly whose eyes change color and when.

1:25:40It's something to really focus on. But also in Diana, in? Indiana. Indiana. Yeah, that's the inn that they stay in. That was funny. Oh, yes, of course, yes.

1:25:51Chris Hewitt:Just a couple of little... I did notice that at the time. Little self-nods. Yeah, I also liked... We'll talk about the action scenes in a second, but I also liked, and I meant to ask Kep about this, he is credited, but not explicitly referred to in the script, but the 1950s comedian who Richard Nixon takes to see the aliens in that footage is Jackie Gleason from The Honeymooners. So he's credited as Jackie... At the time, I was like, that's Jackie Gleason. That's Jackie Gleason. And the credits he is credited as Jackie Gleason. I was wondering why that particular choice. But anyway. Yes, so we were talking about some of the other stuff as well.

1:26:28Chris Hewitt:The action. So there are a couple of extended action beats in this. The movie begins in media res, as you say. We're plunged straight into the middle of a thriller. We're in the third act of this thriller, essentially. It's one of the most low-key thrillers that Paramount used to make back in the late 90s. that ends with a face-off in an abandoned warehouse somewhere. But you've got that stuff going on. You've got, obviously, the extended car chase that ends with the car being driven off the ravine into the quarry. And you have Margaret and Daniel attempting to escape the car and the train. Am I missing anything out?

1:27:07Chris Hewitt:And were you happy with those sequences? And Spielberg as a filmmaker, because one of the things I loved about this was I got a real sense of reinfigured this wrong word because the Fablemans was really good and he's always had these incredible visual furtures but I got a sense of someone who was belying his years with his use of the camera and his staging and blocking this felt like a 70s filmmaker like it's he is in the 70s that's right but a filmmaker of the 70s oh I see what you mean it felt like a filmmaker of the 70s making a sci-fi movie which you know like it feels like the same guy who made Close Encounters.

1:27:46Obviously it is, but, you know, to a much, much greater degree than the guy who made Lincoln feels like the guy who made Close Encounters or the guy who made Tintin feels like the guy who made Close Encounters. This feels very much of a part of that part of his career. Just the energy of the filmmaking, the way he was using the camera, you know, the low angle shots where somebody getting out of a car suddenly becomes incredibly epic and exciting. Just felt like the film, just felt like that Steven Spielberg to me. and to a degree that I haven't really felt that way in a while. And I was really, really interested in that.

1:28:21I thought he was firing on all cylinders, to be honest. And even things that, again, some people picked up on, you know, when they're hiding behind the rocks next to the ravine. Like, they're only feet away. I had notes. Yeah, surely they'd see them. But I feel like that's, again, just like a sort of almost a throwback to almost even an earlier, maybe, level of filmmaking, like 50s or 40s or something. That felt like original War of the Worlds, hiding behind a rock from the alien then crawling off and not being seen. Indie does that a lot. Yeah, it felt like a good way of framing the picture rather than necessarily exactly what was happening, you know.

1:28:53And I just kind of went with that and I enjoyed that sort of little flourishy thing. I thought it was great. You could also argue for the bit where they're all sort of trying to get out of the kind of film studio warehouse. Yes, yes. That's a great sequence. Do you know what? I mean, the word action is kind of almost misapplied because a lot of these scenes aren't like... The best action scenes to me are not action scenes. The best action scenes are exactly, say, when they leave the warehouse. The best action scene for me is when she and Josh walk out of the trailer and pass all the guards. There's no violence.

1:29:30There's no chasing. There's no shooting. It's just talking. I didn't need the car chase. I didn't need the train sequence. The train sequence weirdly kind of stuck out like a sore thumb for me. It felt... It felt like, oh, we need to insert something to stop certain members of the audience from falling asleep. And I would 100 % have been happy with this film if it had just been people talking. Because those were my favorite parts of this. It had that old school, very adult espionage thriller vibe. And you don't need shootouts, and you don't need grand stage sequences, because you're just on board.

1:30:01The character work and the plot development and the intrigue carries you, and I don't think you need any of it. But even then, I mean, the train sequence is, part of the train sequence is her having a panic attack, which I thought was a great beat and a great grace note on that scene.

1:30:13Chris Hewitt:What did you make of the end of that sequence where they find some respite in the train carriage and, you know, again, I'm immediately thinking of Last Crusade which has a pivotal sequence in the train. But they end up in a train carriage with a bunch of pianos. Yeah, which Spielberg's mum is kind of a fabelman's callback. Okay, of course it is. Of course it is. I was wondering what that was because it seemed to have a significance that the film didn't really expand on. I mean, maybe it's more than that or maybe it's different than that, but certainly that's sort of what I immediately thought of.

1:30:51Chris Hewitt:Yeah. All right, a couple of last things before we move on. What about, I'm not going to talk about the animals because I know we have a question about the animals. What about the selection of Daniel and Margaret and the sequence in the recreation at Margaret's childhood home. For you, did that track? Were you following what went on? Why those two were chosen? I said to Kepp that, we were talking about the religious angle. I said, are they essentially the Adam and Eve of a new form of humanity? He went, didn't really think of that. Yes, I'll take it. It's possible. But why two were told repeatedly that it was always just the two of you?

1:31:33Chris Hewitt:Always two. They're always two. A master and an apprentice. So she's Darth Sidious. And he is Maul. Have I told you the story of Darth Plagueis the Wise? The tragedy. Sorry, my mistake. God, I misquoted Revenge of the Sith and I'm immediately resigning from this podcast in disgrace. What did you make of that? Did you understand why the two of them were chosen above all other people? Because obviously I did. Clearly. I don't know that there was supposed to be a particular superordinate reason for it. they were just chosen. I don't think a lot, it's one of the many, many things in this film that we're just going to hand wave and not explain.

1:32:13And I'm kind of okay with that. I feel like if you, you could have had a throwaway line about, you know, both their dads worked at NASA at one point or like, you know, or they had a certain genetic marker that was unusual. It doesn't matter. I mean, I don't think you need it. Like, I don't think, oh, maybe they were suitably empathic and all this. But actually, I think, you know, part of this is the gifts make them what they become. So I don't think who they were beforehand almost matters that much. These gifts shape them, even if they're not conscious of them. So maybe it is that they were just two random people that happened to be American.

1:32:48Well, it's also a very sort of classic Spielbergian, middle-class American home. It was maybe overkill to build the entire building. It didn't seem necessary. It seems like you'd need it at most for bedrooms. but you know I appreciate maybe it helped put her in the mindset it starts

1:33:07Chris Hewitt:it starts when she sees the childhood room it's trying to awaken whatever's inside her and the minute she sees the room obviously is the deal sealer but it's the the moment of impact when she sees a childhood home yeah can I ask a question about Hugo's gang so Hugo has his gang of people he does have his gang of people all of whom left the company at the same time staged a mass walkout almost like union action now are you inspired by that should we do that we should do that but But it's only when Noah sees, he sees, was it two of them? And he's like, right, these two, I saw them. And he goes to the wall where he has, and I cannot emphasize this enough, all of their pictures on the wall.

1:33:44It says, track their location. It's like, how are you not tracking all of them from the get-go? You know who all the people who left are. And if they're all congregating in the same place, it feels like this could have been solved very quickly, very easily with a little bit of basic deduction. That's fair. I'm not even going to argue with that one. That's totally fair. Yes. why not trace all their photos immediately yeah yeah no question because it would have been a very short film I mean well yeah maybe so also maybe he's just not very good at his job yeah you know gotten complacent yeah never ascribe to malevolence what could be described with incompetence most of these tech bros are not that bright just saying

1:34:24Chris Hewitt:alright shall we have some questions let's alright so I've asked for questions via Instagram and also Blue Sky so thank you so much for your questions I'm going to deal with the ones from Instagram first. Then we're going to move on to Blue Sky. So, Kakapo Jane, Jane Nelson, says, Why was Emily Blunt's toast just normal bread? Why did the camera linger on it? Who doesn't love toast? Oh, I love toast. Genuinely. Hot buttered toast. That is a top 10 food. What level? What's your toaster on? How many minutes? Like three max. I don't want it very dark. I want a little bit of softness in the middle.

1:35:06Yeah. No, I want crispiness in the outside, softness in the middle. I want the butter to melt when it hits. Very important. Very important. And then I have it in my mouth within 30 seconds. Like it's not, you don't fuck around with toast. Before the toast sweat can dry.

1:35:19Chris Hewitt:That's it. Yeah. Interesting. I don't like the way the toast gets cold. I don't like it when warm things become cold. Yes, I agree. Cold toast, you know when you get this? No, I don't want cold toast. Cold chips. I don't like cold chips. No one likes garlic chips. Yeah, what are you saying, cold pizza? Absolutely not, because the cheese congeals. Yeah, the cheese congeals. I'm going to pick off the cheese even if it's congealed, but that's not the point. Yeah, Jesus Christ. So, yeah, I'm a five. Five? I'm a five on the toast scale. Four and a half. That's dark. It's very dark. It gets real dark, then it gets pitch black, and that's where I live.

1:35:55Then Vin Diesel turns up and gives you toast or something.

1:35:58Chris Hewitt:That's the line from Expendables 2, I think you'll find. I don't recognize the expendables too when there's pitch black. What do you mean you don't recognize the expendables too? Anyway. Yes, I love my toast. So thanks, Jane, for that question about how we take our toast. I think it was really a grounding thing. I think this was just like, here is a regular morning. We are having toast and coffee and talking about regular things until this fucking bird shows up. Maybe Spielberg's in the pocket of big toast. You ever thought about that? Hey, what a pocket to be in. What a delicious pocket to be in.

1:36:30Chris Hewitt:Mrs. Lanks says there's been somewhat of a mixed response to this film see the first 30 minutes of this podcast are we too cynical for it in 2026? Well we're not clearly we're not I mean not all of us 2 out of 3 ain't bad as Meatloaf once said we're you know Jimbo you do bring us down sorry in your pessimistic pit yeah I don't think genuinely I don't think as a species we are that cynical or pessimistic. I think we're all taking some knocks at the moment. I think I'm finding it hard to be optimistic every single day. It's hard to be optimistic and, I don't know, read the news. Yeah. But it's like you've always maintained that humanity is a rule, arcs towards justice and equality and all of these things.

1:37:16Evidence to the contrary, I would say. But let's hope if you zoom really, really far out that you're correct. I mean, not everything is always getting worse. And I do have hope that some things will get better.

1:37:31Chris Hewitt:I agree. I think if you zoom out far enough, you have a helicopter view of the Earth. Probably further. All the same planet? Yeah, definitely further. Where's Voyager now? We're all on the same planet. We all occupy this same space. You pull out far back enough, and you see the alien warship coming in to blow us off the kingdom come. That's how optimistic I am. No, peace! If I can quote the great philosopher Yakko from Animaniacs. I quoted the great philosopher Sylvester Stallone, so have at it. And this is another Steven Spielberg, of course, production. It's a great big universe, and we're all really puny.

1:38:06We're teeny tiny specks about the size of Mickey Rooney.

1:38:11Chris Hewitt:How big was Mickey Rooney? I mean, in a universal size, he was about arson. James is right. But he was like five foot two or something. He is. You are. He is. You are. Okay. The flick freak. The flick freak. The flick. Sorry. I went full heat. Somebody reboot Chris. Send him off and on again. Your rigs. The flick. The flick. Leave all this in. Oh, God. The flick freak. The flick freak. The flick freak. Okay. The flick freak. Why do the aliens? look worse than the ones in Kingdom of the Crystal. I mean, there is a legitimate question there. And I get the idea of using the aesthetic of the greys, which are the classic alien thing.

1:39:05You're thinking Roswell, you're thinking aliens have been among us for ages, you're on Dark Skies, X-Files, all of this stuff. So it made sense to have that rather than like wibbly-wobbly tentacled aliens, because that requires a leap. I think the idea of the greys is almost like seared into our collective sort of public consciousness. but if you are putting out footage that people are supposed to instantly believe and then it looks like sub-season 2 X-Files it's not great I think in this universe we have to assume that they haven't watched sub-season or season 2 of the X-Files or you know not in the same way I think it's meant to be like that's what they look like deal with it a little bit you know

1:39:48Chris Hewitt:someone else has said why do you think they went for the Ellen Amborg thoughts on the alien design took me out of it that they went with cliched grey dudes it's not cliche it's truth Ellen that's what they look like I think that's the deal I think as with Close Encounters he is trying to root it in that alien tradition that specific tradition of UFOs and Close Encounters and so on I mean I think that's also for example why there is a blink and your miss it shot of Devil's Tower Devil's Peak Devil's Tower A devil's anus. No, no, no.

1:40:27Chris Hewitt:All right. Peart Bradley. Does anyone else think the private sector bad guys were pretty incompetent? I thought it was a pretty bang on summation of people in the private sector. There was a Keystone Cops vibe to their whole thing. Yeah. From her getting onto the base, from her getting off the base, from the absolute clusterfuck at the end of the film. And I know the reasons for it and you discussed in your interview when Colin Firth just goes, meh, and just sits down, I'm just going to watch, it's fine, whatever. I loved that he just gave up. I loved that he just admitted. But all of his goons were like there, like they were all on mission.

1:41:05They were getting stuff done and he's just like, ah, fuck it, go home. His heart is not in it.

1:41:09Chris Hewitt:He didn't need to be in it. He just had to do nothing. From the minute that his wife, quote unquote, appears to him as Emily Blunt. And he goes through the motions of being a bad guy, even though he doesn't think he's a bad guy. That sounded like Homer Simpson. That's the first time I've actually done a good Homer Simpson impression, and I didn't mean to. But he's going through the motions of being a bad guy from that moment on. And then he gets to the KCXA, and he sees they're going to win. And he could be the mustache-twirling bad guy who goes, shut it all down. He's tried, obviously. Shut it all down.

1:41:45Chris Hewitt:But they prevail. and he's just like, you know what, fuck it, let them have their fun. I'm going to sit down, I'm going to see what unfolds and maybe one day I will be reunited with my wife. Although, how is that going to work? Because if God doesn't exist, anyway. I don't think that's, again, I don't think that necessarily follows, but you know. I kind of got that rather than him being like, I'm going to be reunited with my wife. I think it awakens. No, I know, I know. But I think it awakens the humanity in him. It does. It's all about, you know, essentially empathy and imparting empathy. And it's like, you get the impression that he's a guy who's maybe been through some shit and developed a lot of, you know, callous and armor to kind of shield himself.

1:42:25And suddenly all of that gets washed away with this torrent of kind of like emotion. And I think he remembers what it is to be human. And suddenly he doesn't give a shit about any of the stuff that he used to give a shit about.

1:42:37Chris Hewitt:Because he was where Hugo was, where Hugo is now. there's certainly an implication that he and Hugo were on the same path and then his wife Jocelyn I believe dies and he's forever down the dark path I think I think there's the implication maybe he wasn't going to rebel against Ward X but he was maintaining a moral line he wasn't experimenting he wasn't violent until that point, I think is the idea. What point was he torturing the aliens? That's after Jocelyn. Okay, fine. And I think that's what he maybe is meant to have lost. All right, here's one from Charlie Organa, Bale's son. Please explain what the fuck happened to Henry Lloyd Hughes, that's his right-hand man, when he was dusted Thanos-style because he comes back, comes straight back, doesn't he?

1:43:33Somebody clearly clicked their fingers again. It's fine. that's how we come back that's how you come back from being dusted

1:43:39Chris Hewitt:yeah that's it but yes we don't know and I think it's a lot of people have hated the fact that the devices are undefined completely undefined yes KateCore97 did the rules of the magic stick thing feel a bit too convenient to you it always did exactly what they needed it to do at any given moment yeah but it didn't like that sort of you know like flicking of somebody nobody wanted that it just happened So I think the idea is that they are unpredictable, not easy to control, and very dangerous. That all makes sense. But yeah, the sheer range of things they could do and the sheer number of ways they could define the laws of physics is impressive.

1:44:21It's a bit like Tolkien's approach to magic, isn't it? It's very ill-defined and does whatever the plot needs it to do at any given time. But I think in this film it's in keeping with the ethos of the story, which is we're not supposed to understand it all. They're not trying to demystify it. And the whole point is this is alien technologies that are far beyond our wildest ken. So, you know, I think it's important that it not be something you can say, well, it does this. It fulfills this one very simple function. It can do lots of things. Because they think differently. Right, because they think differently, their minds work differently.

1:44:52And if this is like an alien mobile phone, you know, our mobile phones just do many different things that you would not necessarily expect if you had come here in the 1950s. Well, ours does. Yours is Android. Mine doesn't pay. My point is, if you came here in the 1950s and learned what a phone was, and then you came back and were handed one of these, you'd be like, what the fuck? This thing is magic. It does all these things that have nothing to do with being a phone. Imagine ET. ET smartphone. Exactly. What would you do? Whereas with these devices, it might be the equivalent. This is the sonic screwdriver rule.

1:45:24Yeah, it is. It can do whatever the doctor needs it to do.

1:45:26Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Don't even worry about it. Yeah, but I like they have different uses, and I like that different people use them in different ways. I like the one that Margaret uses, Disintegrated. So they only have, what, two left by the end? Yeah. And Noah hasn't really thought to use it for anything other than invasive purposes than for, quote-unquote, evil purposes. But he is aware of their power-generating potential. Yes, very much so. All right, just a couple of last ones from Instagram, and then we'll move on to Blue Sky. The Drive ad says, which Josh O 'Connor gets new job post-crime and discusses theology film did you prefer?

1:46:02Chris Hewitt:This or Wake Up Dead Man? I think his engagement with theology is deeper in Wake Up Dead Man. Yeah. I'm going to be honest with you. But I really enjoyed him in this. What a role he's on. My God. I even liked him in History of Sound which not everybody did. I did. I think he was good in that. He's good. He's good people. He's good people. He's good people. learning leaning leaning one I struggle with the CGI the animals but mostly the alien at the end what about you guys and I know we have another question about the CGI animals in this now I am very generous I think when it comes to forgiving shonky CGI in movies I always try to find a rationalization for it I always try and forgive the artists who Helen, as you know, are often overworked and underpaid and trying to bring things in under very, very tight schedules.

1:47:03Chris Hewitt:It's why, for example, I thought I came out of Quantumania and went, God, that was great. That's fantastic. And that's before they'd even finished the effects. Those alien landscapes, they're just truly alien, almost like unfinished CGI. But of course, that was finished, right? Oh, no, it wasn't finished. Okay, interesting. And here, my rationale for the CGI animals looking slightly shonky is that they're not CG, they're not animals. They're aliens presenting as animals, so therefore they are going to look a little bit weird and unsettling. James, you're once again looking at me with an amused smirk.

1:47:39Chris Hewitt:I think that is very much not the case. Am I being overly generous? Well, better than mine, not all of the CG animals are aliens pretending to be animals. I'd say 95 % of the animals in this movie are aliens pretending to be animals I mean, so are we saying that the cardinal bed that flies into the window is an alien that flies into her front room and sits on the table? Yes Really? Yeah, because it activates her How did you think a real cardinal was doing that? Well, no, weirdly I assumed from that because there was an association there it triggered something that was dormant in her like it was the association with it I didn't think that that was an alien that had come and said it's you It flies How many birds have you had fly into your house and...

1:48:20Stare at you. Stare at you.

1:48:22Chris Hewitt:We had a pigeon fly in once. It was carnage. You had some bees recently, didn't you? I did. Thousands of bees. Were they aliens? Maybe I'm chosen. The bees came. Maybe you're a sleeper agent. But I suspect you're more like Gort. Or the thing from the movie, the thing. than a benevolent alien who's here to show mankind a path forward. Did you see the aliens as turning into animals or they just perceived them as animals? I think they perceived... Well, okay. Because if the latter, then you had a very small winged alien that flew in through. I think it was in FIFO 17, getting out of his wheelchair, clambering up a drain pipe, climbing in through the window and then going, oh God, now I've got to get onto this kitchen table.

1:49:10Chris Hewitt:Fucking hell. I think that's what happens I think there might be an element of they can control people mentally I think they can control animals mentally yeah so maybe there's like an envoy type thing where they're sending the bird I think with the bird and the fox for example I think that's what's happening with the earlier animals in her bedroom who take them through the snow I think it's clear from the footprints which are alien footprints that those are actual aliens that she perceives and they're not changing shape they're just that's how she's that's how they're making sense of them and not being scared.

1:49:43Very gnarly. And they choose aliens, or they choose animals that she clearly likes. Like she has that Cardinals mobile in the room. So yeah, they're kind of trying to be familiar and soothing and reassuring.

1:49:58Chris Hewitt:Okay, so Michael, what's his name? Just Michael, I don't know what his name is on Instagram. Oh, Ramos, 1985. He says, I really enjoyed the film but the general chat seems to be that audiences didn't gel with it. I feel the film does hand wave a lot of developments and demands the audience just go with it does the team think this is why the film has been so divisive is it is it an element perhaps there might be an element of people expecting a bit more exposition these days um i feel like we're certainly taught to and encouraged to by the way that films are made for streaming i don't know that we necessarily need that when we go to the cinema i feel like you know successes recently like back rooms suggest that we are willing to be a bit more experimental than that.

1:50:40But then this is maybe pointed to a very different audience than Back Rooms was and trying to find a different audience. So there might still be something to that. I don't know. I feel like it has been divisive and clearly there's something that people wanted from it that it doesn't give them. And we've talked about some of those things. But I still hope it's going to find more and more people who want to see it, who want to enjoy it. I think perhaps it falls in an awkward hinterland between maybe what people wanted from it. And I think it's an adult film in that it's clearly pitched at grown-ups and it has an adult tone to it.

1:51:23And to the extent that, as we said, the action almost feels unnecessary and kind of crowbarred in at times. So you've got a segment of the audience which is maybe ill-served by the kind of rather more deliberate-paced storytelling and the fact that it is a conspiracy thriller. And then maybe at the other end, you could argue that the people who are 100 % here for Le Carre-esque, you know, intriguing conspiracy maybe found it a little basic at times. Like, it's not the naughtiest conspiracy thriller ever. And so there was some pushback on social media when I was describing it as adult storytelling.

1:51:58It's not adult, it's childish. The plot is really basic and simplistic. It's like there is something to be said. There's a straightforwardness to it as a conspiracy thriller. So maybe it doesn't quite serve either one of those audiences in the way that they would want. Yeah, I suppose if you have been spending, you know, years, decades watching, you know, X-Files type overly complicated, you know, wildly Baroque conspiracies about aliens, just they've been hiding them from us, isn't really going to float your boat. It isn't going to feel exciting in that sense. that doesn't feel fresh. I will concede that that does not feel fresh.

1:52:35But I think what worked really well for me is I thought the storytelling was kind of non-stop, just go, go, go, go, go. But if you are expecting either an action movie or a really thinky movie, then yeah, I guess it falls between the two stools.

1:52:51Chris Hewitt:The box office has been quite interesting. We're doing this a few days after it's opened in the States. We discussed on the regular podcast a few weeks ago, we were talking about our predictions for the box office summer. And I think we said, I think we did say about 300, 350? Yeah. I read some of it that it needs to make 300 to turn a profit. That sounds probably right to me. Probably a bit more with marketing. There's a budget of 115 apparently. I'm not sure it's going to even hit that. It did. It had a$44 million opening weekend in the States. It's 98.2 worldwide for the weekend. They would have liked more, I think it's fair to say.

1:53:33Chris Hewitt:Yes. Given how, you know, I don't know. It's an interesting one because obviously we have things like Obsession still going strong. I would not be surprised at all if Obsession, which is in what is now a sixth weekend, this weekend, beats Disclosure Day in its second. The marketing for this has been so fascinating to me. because the posters, everything I saw on the tube put Spielberg's name above the title as if he was the star of the film, which I've never seen before with a director. Usually it's from visionary director Steven Spielberg, but this would literally have a picture of Emily Blunt saying Disclosure Day, but it wouldn't say Emily Blunt, Disclosure Day.

1:54:14Chris Hewitt:It would say Spielberg, Disclosure Day. I've never seen that before. That's happened. Come on. M. Night Shyamalan has had that quite a few times. I've never seen a poster with just saying Shyamalan signs. It's usually from M.L. Shyamalan. Oh, okay, sorry. You're saying literally no other word apart from his name. No, it's presenting him almost as if he's the star of the movie, which in many ways he is a poster. Like Schwarzenegger! But equally... Tarantino? Nolan? Nope, I've never... If people can sense something and if you see anything, if there's anything I've ever missed, because I don't know everything, as sad as it is to admit that, I may have missed something, but I've never seen a director presented as the star of a movie before.

1:54:54Chris Hewitt:It's usually from Frisbee director Chris Nolan or from Tim Burton or from whomever. This isn't even from Spielberg. This was Spielberg, Disclosure Day. And even then, that provokes an interesting discussion in itself, which is like, we love Spielberg. We grew up in Spielberg. I worship Spielberg. Spielberg's best days at the box office are behind him, it would seem, and have been for a while. And he's not the guaranteed home run at the box office that he once was. And this is clear. And it's an interesting thing to me that they chose to go down this route with the marketing. I'm not saying that if you put Blunt Disclosure Day or O 'Connor Disclosure Day or Firth Disclosure Day or Domingo Disclosure Day that it would have necessarily moved the needle at the box office.

1:55:43Chris Hewitt:But it is an interesting thing that they've gone that way with the marketing when perhaps the numbers suggest that that was maybe not the way to go. I mean, I don't think it's his name that's done that. I think the marketing for this film has been deliberately opaque, and I've kind of celebrated that, because it was a delightfully unusual experience to go to the premiere of this and have almost no idea what this film was, because they deliberately kept lots of the kind of second and third act stuff out of the trailers. It is, you know, it's all promised, but it's been kept quite shrouded, and, you know, in the age that we live in, that's very, very unusual.

1:56:19and while I think from a narrative point of view and from an audience enjoyment point of view it's massively to this film's benefit there is maybe an argument that the kind of slightly more vulgar marketing campaigns that people tend to run do put bums on seats but then equally this isn't a massively commercial film is it? Like it's not so was it ever going to make tons of money? Because it narrows its scope of audience quite a bit with just the way it's executed with its premise and you know as an adult conspiracy thriller so I don't think it was ever going to be a mass four-quadrant hit. So maybe it's just the result of what it is rather than the marketing campaign itself.

1:56:56And just the way that the box office is going now, I guess. I mean, you can still break through occasionally with an obsession with the back rooms, with one or two others this year, but it hasn't been a good time for movies. I think he is a selling point, and he should be a selling point, in the way that, you know, okay, yeah, it didn't have a film by, but you know it is increasingly common I think to have directors be the selling point for films Nolan Scorsese you know all these guys mostly guys Gerwig maybe and I you know I get why they're doing that it does sometimes work it definitely works for Christopher Nolan he is the main selling point of his films I know he has A-listers in them but he's the reason people go to see his films and I feel like that's kind of the same with Steven Spielberg and it's bloody well fucking ought to be Jesus Christ it's Steven Spielberg

1:57:48Chris Hewitt:Of course, but Jurassic Park was 33 years ago. Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark was 45 years ago. Martin Scorsese's barely had a box office hit in his entire career. His name still goes front and center in the marketing because he's still the reason that people see those films. Yeah, but his last two movies have both been streaming. Yeah, but with enormous budgets because people still want to be in the Martin Scorsese business. Yeah, they do. No, I get what you're saying, but at the same time, I don't know what else you market this on because I don't think I think James is right it's not as obvious I mean this movie doesn't get made without Spielberg no it doesn't yeah but that's where we're at as a sort of you know as an art form if this wasn't a Steven Spielberg movie this would have been an eight part series on Apple TV Plus like it has that you'd be lucky for it to be on Apple TV Plus but no it's not Apple TV Plus anymore James it is Apple TV yes I do know that but they'll always be plus to me don't you discuss this on Pilot TV we do discuss it on the Pilot TV podcast but I no but genuinely Because obviously Apple does take big swings on quite opaque science fiction.

1:58:50That is pretty much their whole brand at this point. And God bless them for it. And God bless them for it. But this is the kind of storytelling that really is largely restricted to streaming these days. And of course, if it was on Apple, I feel like it would begin with either F or S because most of their sci-fi divide does. Yeah, that's true. Nobody knows why. Anyway, but yeah, I'm glad it's in cinemas. I'm glad it exists.

1:59:12Chris Hewitt:Like I said, this is a weird fucking little movie that just happens to be a huge fucking weird movie that's in the middle of the summer box office marketplace. And it kind of feels like the odd one out in a lot of ways. And I'm glad it exists. And I'm glad that Spielberg has, you know, because the Fablemans was great. But, you know, he's still got his mojo at nearly 80 years old. But it's just an interesting, there's an assumption, I think, that he has a cachet that he perhaps no longer has. And I think that's, it's sad. I don't like that assumption. I refuse to engage with that at all. I would also point out that this is a cheaper film than Killers of the Flower Moon was.

1:59:53Chris Hewitt:I'm not having it. And at least three weeks shorter. That's not relitigate Killers of the Flower Moon. It will be here a long, long time. Here is a Blue Sky question from Brewy Chris, who did also ask a question via Instagram. Were Wardaks totally useless so the film could exist? I mean, yes, to a degree, yeah. yeah but again it goes back to the private sector thing I mean these guys are not the best of the best yeah in many in many cases are we the private sector I mean look at us I guess we are. We're a private sector podcast. I just fucked that sentence up. We're practically a charity podcast.

2:00:33We're currently third sector.

2:00:34Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Here's a great name. Ape Milk Buddha on Blue Sky. I feel like I maybe missed a line of dialogue. How did they know to build Emily Blunt's childhood home? And in such detail when they didn't know Emily Blunt was one of the abductees until after they were already constructing her home. The alien. The alien. The alien. Elvis. In vivo. In vivo 17 told them to do it. Yes. Yes, this is another thing. Yes, Ape Milk Butter I think has missed his bit. At the end, the good guys are revealed to have freed an extraterrestrial, but Colin Firth never seemed to be questioning anyone about this freed alien.

2:01:14Chris Hewitt:He only seemed to care about the missing Sankara stones. Wouldn't he have been aware that the alien was missing? He is aware. He is aware. And he talks about it an awful lot throughout the movie. Yeah, it happened five years before. yes five years before and obviously he realised this through the movie that it was Hugo Watt done it I'd like to know where they were holding him up all this time travel lodge that's what I'm thinking nobody would check there do they have a travel lodge in the states more like a best western or a holiday inn maybe he's in Indiana yes he's in the Indiana motel so there's that one just a couple last ones MJ Weiss Pfizer apologies if I mispronounced your name MJ why the fuck does Colin Firth put his heat vision iPad away and why don't his henchmen just open fire instead of walking out at the end and he likes this movie how do you feel about the way this movie recycles elements from 2010 World War 3 infertile by alien evidence and Star Trek 5 oh it's a bit where Joshua Connor is hovering up a cliff and Emily Blunt scares him and then Colin Firth goes I know this Wardex facility like the back of my hand and he bumps his head on a door no it's a bit where a person can look into your heart gets a free pass in every possible situation I'm reading some subtext into MJ's question I don't think he'd like this movie what gave it away I don't know so I think they don't fire because they don't really know what's going on and if they have any worries about the device being present, which obviously they do, then they could explode it or do something with it that is dangerous.

2:02:58Also, like, murder's still slightly frowned upon. For the private sector, yeah. I don't think you can just shoot a warehouse full of people, you know, without any kind of cause. They haven't been killing people indiscriminately, actually, have they? No, they're actually, they're quite restrained. There's no body count in this movie, I believe. No one dies. Yeah. I mean, you've got your man who shoots at them quite directly when they're climbing on the train. Drives them into a train. But apart from that, apart from him... Apart from him, there's not a lot of murderizing going on.

2:03:25Chris Hewitt:He doesn't get killed. Like the usual rules of a Hollywood demoralizing of a Hollywood blockbuster is that you tried to kill the goodies, therefore you are going to be consumed by fire ants, like that guy in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. He just walks away. He just walks away. So yeah, so I think they are not into indiscriminate killing and of course, I actually don't know there's a house in the way, so actually most people would be fine, but they don't know that. Wooden house though. Yeah, true. how much stopping power. True. Anyway, it would deny us that fun scene where they all just crash into stuff they can't see, which I very much enjoyed.

2:03:57That's fun. What was the other question about the, oh, seeing men to people's hearts? I mean, that's baked in. I don't know that we can do anything about that.

2:04:04Chris Hewitt:Yeah, okay. Here's a question from Julian Martin. Could Disclosure Day have been an email? Sensing didn't like the film? Sense, just got a sense didn't like the film. Could it have been an email? No. What, the whole film? Yeah. I mean, every film could be an email. No, I think the idea is like, could he not just have dumped it online and walked away? And, you know, Hugo is very adamant that no, they cannot. And presumably he has a reason for thinking that. And he does have access to a, you know, godlike alien who has obviously predicted some stuff that's going to happen. I mean, ultimately, it's embargoed, right?

2:04:43He's embargoed the information and it's part of their publicity rollout scheme and they want to control the narrative. So I think that's ultimately what it is. I think there is an element of controlling the narrative. Well, because it's the stage release of information. It's like first the videos, then the Jimmy Fallon interview. Like that comes next. Like Alien goes on TV and they need the alien as part of it. So yeah, it's an embargo. We've all signed non-disclosure agreements.

2:05:07Chris Hewitt:Not for this movie, thankfully. But we know how terrifying they are. So I can see why Daniel's in such a state of panic for most of the movie. He must be thinking, shit, was I allowed to say that about that movie? Have I broken the embargo by a week? Am I going to get sued? Oh, no. Oh, no. That's probably what he's thinking. But no, I don't think it could have been an email. That would have been uncinematic. I also think that Hugo, and again, this is all unseen and kind of implied. Hugo has won all these people over, presumably one-on-one, after kind of figuring out that they might be willing to work with him.

2:05:44Again, there may be an element of alien help in figuring out who will help him at the company. And he has then convinced them to a really impressive degree to go along with him and to risk breaking their NDAs and to do all of this stuff. So they must have been showing something pretty compelling to do that. and again I think that his access to in vivo 17 may be a part of how he's convinced all these people to do all of these things

2:06:15Chris Hewitt:how does he bankroll it how does he bankroll it how does again if the alien does have any kind of precognition or any kind of precogs yeah those kind of powers then that would presumably help him raise some money but I genuinely was sitting there thinking when I was watching it for the second time I wonder if they've all contributed like a thousand dollars each or something you know they had a whip round I mean, genuinely, I'm not entirely kidding, but I think that might be a part of it. How long? Has Hugo been off the grid for five years? No. Or did Hugo go off the grid more recently? He just didn't turn up that day.

2:06:46Chris Hewitt:He just didn't turn up. That's right. Yeah. That's right. So the alien's basically been at his house. So they wouldn't need that much money. They just need a room at the Best Western to store in FIVO. Let's assume the house is a basement. It's in America. Everybody's house has a basement, as far as we know. They've got to hire that building to build the house. They've got to rent the building, build a wooden house and put a bunch of stuff in it and admittedly rent a couple of fire trucks. It's not that expensive. It doesn't seem beyond the realms of these people's budget. And we are talking Kansas City.

2:07:18This is not downtown Manhattan.

2:07:21Chris Hewitt:It's still going to be cheap. It's not nothing, but I'm just saying they could raise some money to do that. They could, you know, the alien could probably help in some way. Look, a big alien did it and then ran away. Hugo has changed. generational wealth. Dip into his pocket. Maybe he does. He'd certainly dress as well. God. Maybe he's Colton Fivo 17 because that's what he bets on at a roulette wheel. And it comes up every single time. And he just appears to someone else as just like a gambler. But he, but the croupier doesn't know. But it's 17 every single time. Genuinely though, he could, maybe he does have, you know, telekinesis.

2:07:58Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Well, hopefully it'll clear up with a bit of cream. Oh boy. Last question from Steve Steve Talentire, Talentire at bsky.social. Again, sensing that Steve was perhaps not on board with the other Steve and this movie. IMO, this is the best bad film of the year. Very good direction, cinematography, score and acting at the service of a one-star story. The lessons of Crystal Skull remain unlearned. More of a comment than a question. I think but what do you think about that? How do you how do you plead Helen O 'Hara? I don't I think that's too harsh I mean yes there's some bits you have to hand wave and some bits that I have critiqued but you know I think this is a classic chase movie it's a classic conspiracy thriller I don't I don't think that's bad in itself and you don't have to reinvent the wheel with the story every time you you know make a movie Jimbo?

2:09:03fundamentally, I reject the premise of the question. It's not a bad film. So it's, I think, it's a good film. It's not to everyone's taste, obviously. But I had a great time with it. Don't get me wrong, I didn't have a transcendental experience with it and I wasn't like, oh my God, this is amazing. But I felt quite gratified by this, honestly, by having an unusual cinematic experience, which is, to a certain extent, I felt like I was watching a streaming series in the cinema.

2:09:28Chris Hewitt:And I think there are moments in this that feel like classic Spielberg. I genuinely do. There's a moment where Margaret is at KCXE before she's about to go out and do her first broadcast back when she's still relatively speaking the Margaret that we're introduced to at the beginning of the movie. And it's all done in a one-er and you get this just wonderful sense of Spielberg's gift for that sort of thing. This incredible facility for blocking and for staging things and for moving the camera around. That scene, nothing happens in it really. But it was exhilarating to watch. some of the action beats the way the camera moves just wonderful you know in tandem with the Johnny Williams score 100 cc's of Johnny Williams adrenaline yes please Amen so I honestly I was flabbergasted I was the first person in Empire to see this movie and I came out I was guys this is this is terrific this is really really great and then there are other people at the magazine who do not share that opinion that is fair to say I wanted someone on today who had this opinion but sadly we're on press day of the magazine and everyone is unavailable apart from us three.

2:10:34Chris Hewitt:There are other people who share my opinion at the magazine and at the podcast and you two are two of those people. And so I was stunned, genuinely stunned. I'm kind of finishing off where we started again, but I was stunned when I saw people reacting so negatively on Twitter. Like, this movie seems to have offended them in some way. Like, has it punched their mother in the face or something? I don't know. I feel like people maybe just wanted something else and it's not what they expected, it's not what they were looking for. And I think if you accept it for what it is, it has a lot to commend it.

2:11:06But I guess if you were looking for, you know, more traditional popcorn entertainment, you didn't find it here. If you were expecting it to push the boat out with an entirely new approach to alien mythology and, you know, first encounter stuff, it doesn't really offer that either. What it offers is something quite meditative and thoughtful on humans, really, more than aliens, and who we are as a species. And I quite vibed with that myself. but clearly not everyone did. Yeah, I'm surprised that the feelings of anger have been as strong as they are for some people and I do think there's an element of maybe just assuming it will be something that he wasn't trying to do.

2:11:46I think maybe they were expecting more of the Jurassic Park or even the Minority Report Spielberg and I think this is Fableman Spielberg, like I said, so maybe there's an element of feeling missold.

2:11:59Chris Hewitt:Maybe, maybe. Who knows, who knows? But listen, I think on that note, it is time to bring this quite epic Disclosure Day spoiler special to an end. I really enjoyed it. I'm not sure people who don't like the film will have enjoyed this that much, but I hope you did anyway. I hope you found it a compelling conversation, despite the fact that it was a conversation with at least one idiot. Hi, James. Hi, Chris. no I'm talking about myself obviously bye Jimbo where are you off to now I'm returning to my home planet

2:12:35we've been watching you for millennia yes we realise now that we've wasted our time

2:12:39Chris Hewitt:isn't your name in Feevo 69 hey nice nice any diving plans as we get into it well couldn't possibly say okay that's goodbye from Helen O 'Hara toodaloo goodbye but what are you off to do now? Are you off to recruit the human race? I'm off to try and read some more sci-fi books to update my references, I suppose. You've only mentioned about 25 on the show. I was bewildered by Lee. Some of them have been around for a long time. I need some new ones. Some I've read, some I have not. I'll be honest, most I have not. Most I haven't even fucking heard of, the ones you said. I think you'd enjoy some of those.

2:13:16Childhood's End and A Case of Conscience are both very short.

2:13:19Chris Hewitt:I've heard of... Is that Arthur C. Clarke? Arthur C. Clarke and James Blish. Those are really easy ones. Sag of the Exiles is a personal favorite of mine that not everybody has read. Sag of the Exiles slash Galactic Milia Trilogy. It's a whole thing. Don't worry about it. Okay. And The Sparrow is something that James actually introduced me to when I started work at Empire. And it is a really astonishing book. It's magnificent. All right. We tick ever closer to James and Helen's sci-fi book club as a spin-off show on this podcast. maybe we'll do it around the same time James and I do the Reach Around the Jack Reacher podcast that we've been promising Glad you clarified that About yes for about what the last 10-15 years A very long time something like that Lee Chard has literally retired in the time it's taken us to not do this He's now Lee Mann it's taken that long Jesus And on that note On that note it's goodbye from me as well I have an earth-shattering announcement, by the way, to make that will benefit humanity in general.

2:14:28Amazing.

2:14:29Chris Hewitt:Listen.