Do You See? (ft. Christopher Nolan)

18:57Alex Godfrey:I saw that you were doing something elaborate there and I saw that you were incredibly, incredibly pleased with yourself. I couldn't quite work out where it was going until it was too late to run away so fair play to you

19:11Chris Hewitt:alright so we have we have Damien Thorne from the Omen 3 we have for some fucking reason Foden from Thor Ragnarok Helen in that case I would like to nominate two okay I'll allow it tell you what I'll do two alright both of them with the word hunt in it really you're going to go for hunt for an October and hunt for the wilder people really leaving you I trust you to do allegory oh that's a bad idea oh no That's a bad idea. Oh, no. Because you're not considering things like my love for The Dish. Oh, I love The Dish. Like the 1981 horror film Possession, in which he is incredible. And he gives that film like a kind of human handhold, if you will.

19:51Chris Hewitt:Because Isabella Gianni in that movie is so, so incredible. And she's so wild in that film that he gives you a little bit of something to hold on to. He's also the human handle, as it were. The human handle? That's wrong. in Hunt for Red October. Okay, but fine. All right then, fine. I'll do my duty. I'll nominate Wilderpeople, obviously. Okay. One of the greatest roles, I think, of the last 20 years. Which is? Which is the role of Heck, who is an old bushman who ends up rather reluctantly... Hey, no. No. He ends up rather reluctantly mentoring young Ricky Baker through the wilderness. Once rejected, now accepted?

20:35Oh. Ricky Baker. Yeah. Anyway, and Alan Grant in Jurassic Park is the best.

20:41Chris Hewitt:What's your favourite Alan Grant moment? It's the basically collapsing to the ground when faced with a brachis, or I just think.

20:50Alex Godfrey:That's it. That's it. Not the bit where he traumatises a small boy in the beginning by threatening to disembowel him. Honestly, the small boy had it coming.

20:58Chris Hewitt:He had it coming. He had it coming. He only had himself to blame. If you would have been there If you would have seen it Then I'll bet you What I've done the same

21:15Little kid from Jurassic Park

21:17Chris Hewitt:Alex is looking at me as if I've lost my damn full mind You said at the beginning that we don't have a lot of time today Oh yes But Jimbo he also traumatizes like he just Alan Grant obviously one of his big things is he doesn't like kids and he just traumatizes motherfuckers left and right and center in that movie because he also traumatizes Tim and Ellie, doesn't he? When he pretends to be electrocuted. But he also... I know he warms to them. Yeah, and he also saves them, importantly. He does ultimately save their lives. He gets some points for that. All right, Helen, after curfew consideration, I've decided to endorse your choice of Alan Grant and Heck from Hunt for the Wilder People.

21:58Chris Hewitt:All right, as the fifth and sixth characters on our epic, elongated, gatefold, Sam Neill, Mount Rushmore. I have to go for Dr. William Weir. I know you do. I have to. I know you do. He's one of the great bad guys. His arc, Helen, if you will, is tragic. It's a tragic arc. It is. He is consumed by his own creation. He starts off as the audience's eyes and ears. We think he's the hero. Of course we do. You know why? He's played by Sam Neill, the nice guy from Jurassic Park. but we forgot he was also the bastard Antichrist. No. Oh my God. And then Dr. William Weir becomes slowly seduced by the event horizon and corrupted by it and then possessed by it and then he rips off his clothes and is covered in weird scars and tattoos and spooky shit and rips his own eyeballs out and starts running around waving his willy about.

22:51I think some other bits as well actually. I think he rips off those bits. Do you think he rips off his willy? Apparently, yeah.

22:55Chris Hewitt:Yeah? Yeah. Oh yeah, I remember the line now. We're going, we don't need willies to piss. Is that what he says? it's something like that it's something like this alright okay it's exciting okay alright so the Sith the Sith Sam Neill I mean we haven't mentioned the piano yeah he's really fucking good I think we're losing the point of Mount Rushmore here we can't just do the whole IMDb but you heard you heard the email we've got permission we got the email sounds like we're going beyond six we have to mention we have to mention some films we have to at least give the impression and reconsidering them.

23:32Chris Hewitt:It's The Dish. It's The Dish. It's The Dish. I don't know if everybody out there has seen The Dish. Yes. It's a very small... Dimension of pure chaos, pure evil. It's a small Australian film. Yes. It's about the radio telescope that helped to receive the pictures from the moon landing in 1969. So you've got this tiny radio telescope, or not tiny, a very big radio telescope, but in the middle of this tiny town in Australia. And Sam Neill plays basically the boss of the dish. He plays Cliff and he's going to be on a cliff. Yeah, and he has a pipe and a cardigan and he's just the most evuncular man in movie history.

24:10Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Yeah. Just lovely. I think this runs a gamut, right? So we have absolutely maniacal bastard murderers. We have satanically possessed people. We have... Gruff Bushmen. We have gruff... And indeed paleontologists. We have paleontologists. Do you think Alan Grant was a Bushman as well? Anyway, okay. We have... We have, we have, what else do we have? We have other people. And we have an actor. We have an actor. An actor. your choice gets weirder and weirder.

24:38Alex Godfrey:I was being considerate. You were being very considerate. And not taking one of the good ones. I would have just mentioned something else. It's fine. I could have done.

24:45Chris Hewitt:But anyway, the man was a legend, an absolute legend, and he deserves many, many more faces on Mount Rushmore. He will be very, very, very sorely missed indeed. The great Sam Neill. Look at him. isn't he beautiful alright we're going to take a quick break now and we will be back in two seconds unless of course you're an Empire Plus subscriber in which case we'll be back immediately after some words from these folks enjoy ok we are back folks we are back back back and of course if you are an Empire Plus subscriber then you heard no adverts and if you're not an Empire Plus subscriber then you should perhaps consider subscribing to Empire Plus which is our new subscription only channel in which you will get ad-free versions of all Empire podcasts, plus access to our spoiler special archives, over 500 episodes and counting, plus more every month, plus new shows, a dedicated Mount Rushmore show.

25:40Chris Hewitt:By the way, that is the thing, that I kind of retired Mount Rushmore from the main show to give it its own episodes over on the Empire Plus paywall. But I felt that Sam Neill, there was such a, you know, people were crying out for it. So I felt that we would take it out of retirement just for Sam Neill. What else do you get? You get episodes of The Ranking. You get other stuff as well that will be coming to you every single month for just... What's it now at the moment, Jimbo? I think we have maybe another week to go for£3.49?

26:09Alex Godfrey:Yes, the 27th is... 27th of July. Is Price Hike Day. It is. We're so sorry.

26:14Chris Hewitt:But also the day you can subscribe to a bundle that gives you Empire and Pilot Plus as well. That is true. That's very, very true indeed. So, you know, six of one, half a dozen of the other, I guess. and while I'm shamelessly plugging things we should mention once again our live show at King's Place on Saturday September 5th it's part of the London Podfest we do a London Podfest show every single year it is always a hoot and a holler and we would love it if you could join us there tickets are on sale right now kingsplace.co.uk Helen's going to be there James is going to be there I don't know if Alex you free that evening you're going to come along who knows who knows Ooh, the mystery element.

26:54Chris Hewitt:I love when he plays hard to get. It's only with you. Everyone else, I'm easy. All right, fair enough. So yes, kingsplays.co.uk to get your tickets for that one. And anyway, should we talk about movie news? Yay. What has been happening in the world of movie news, folks? I've been in Pompeii. I don't know if I mentioned it. And I haven't really been paying attention to anything. Well, I think you know about one of the stories. Do I? One of them is the trailer for Digger.

27:23Alex Godfrey:Which I was very disappointed to hear was not a Digger Barnes origin story movie. No?

27:30Chris Hewitt:No Dallas fans in the house? Okay, as you were. That's why John Barnes' nickname was Digger at Liverpool. I have just put that together. I've just put that together. John Barnes, until Mo Salah came along, was my favorite Liverpool player of all time. and when he moved to Anfield in 1988, 87, 87, he moved to... Peak Dallas time. That explains it. Digger Barnes. Digger Barnes. Who was Cliff Barnes' dad. Oh my God. That's amazing. There was also a footballer called Fitz Hall whose nickname was One Size. That's very good. That's very good. That's very, very good. Isn't it? I saw a basketball player today who has some of the best nicknames.

28:16I've ever seen. He is a white basketball player who wears glasses on the court. Like sort of almost like they look like goggles. So he's got names like Larry Nerd. Oh, Larry Bird. Yeah. And like, honestly, every one of them is pretty great.

28:33Chris Hewitt:But one hell of news was disappointing. But I'm sure the other ones were great. I was like, you motherfucker. You were away last week in LA. And I was away last week in LA. And where was I? I was at a Digger trailer event at the Warner Brothers lot where Tom Cruise himself introduced the brand new trailer a few days before it hit the internet of Digger which is the movie he's been making for a while with Alejandro Helen you can always say this name much better than I Alejandro González Iñárritu yeah that's him I just say Iñárritu and it doesn't sound as Helen attacks the Spanish language with real grace.

29:15Chris Hewitt:With a sudden exuberance. Thank you. Speaking of very obscure

29:19Alex Godfrey:quotes, Alex.

29:22Chris Hewitt:We're doing a podcast with the inventor of Scrabble. But yes, so this is a film in which it's been kind of under wraps. We knew it was about someone, a very powerful person played by Tom Cruise who in some way triggered some sort of cataclysmic event and then was tasked with afferting the after effects of that event. We know a little bit more about it now. He plays a guy called Digger Rockwell, who appears to be some sort of billionaire oil, I'm guessing oil baron slash tycoon, who in the course of one frack too many seems to unleash some sort of cataclysmic effect upon the earth and is tasked by the President of the United States of America, played by John Goodman, with reversing the effects of this and hilarity follows.

30:09Chris Hewitt:The interesting thing about this is, for an Indie Leto movie, it's a comedy. It's an out and out, Dr. Strangelove-esque, it's my impression from the trailer, Coen Brothers-esque comedy. It literally says in the tagline, a comedy of catastrophic proportions. And Tom Cruise is buried under layers of makeup. But the tone of this thing is really interesting. It's like a far removed from something like The Revolent or even Birdman, which was kind of a black comedy as well. Apparently. That's going to be the question. like does the tone work I think when we see the full film it's hard to tell from a trailer if that kind of particular sort of farce works like the Coen brothers can do it but people even hate it when they do it sometimes and it's going to be interesting to see if this one works I mean it's an incredible cast around them as well you know Riz Ahmed and Michael Stuhlberg and Jesse Plemons and Sandra Hull are like great great people so I'm really optimistic I think people are talking like this This is Cruise's Oscar grab.

31:16And maybe there's an element of that. I think people get suspicious any time a big actor puts on a lot of prosthetics. But they made a point, I noticed, I don't know if you noticed in the sort of press release for this trailer, of pointing out that he's already an Oscar winner. He has his honorary Oscar that is in the bag. So I feel like they're trying to kind of tamp down on that chat about this film. It's interesting to me, I thought. I don't, I mean, I didn't see, it's not an Oscar-baity sort of trailer. It doesn't feel like that. And it is a comedy. I mean, comedies don't often win big at the Oscars.

31:49I think people were, I think because it was an Iñárritu film that people were expecting something sort of weighty and more dramatic. But, you know, you watch a trailer and you're like, well, this is sort of Tropic Thunder territory. And it's very Tom Cruise. There's a lot of woo, you know, all that stuff. And it looks like a big performance. It looks quite broad. It looks definitely obviously comedic. so I don't know I think it's probably I think there'll be more to it than that ultimately yeah I mean it's social political sort of material but it looks like a lot of fun and actually there are layers and layers of makeup on there but I don't think they're ghoulish prosthetics no it could have been grotesque and it's not yeah they're very natural and I think you've totally like there's nothing in there that obscures him at all like he can definitely it doesn't look like he's wearing a rubber mask and you can definitely see Tom Cruise there is not that hidden and they've obviously done that on purpose he wants to be able to emote under all those prosthetics but it looks really fun and really really interesting

32:48Alex Godfrey:and remember

32:48Chris Hewitt:it's not you know it's an Enioitu film as much as anything else and he's you never know what you're going to get from him no indeed that's all we know really at this point in time but yeah it's out in October so hopefully more in fact more will be revealed in October in fact but more will be revealed I'm sure over the coming weeks and months but yeah very very promising start indeed for Tom Cruise is Digger, which I believe is the name of the film. Any other trailers that I... Did I go to any other events? Did I see any other launches? I don't know about you, but there was a trailer for Mayday.

33:23Mayday. Which is a film where Ryan Reynolds is a fighter pilot type who is shot down in Cold War Russia. That's Ryan Rodney Reynolds to you. Indeed. And teams up with Kenna, I'm doing my accent again, Branagh, speaking of boys from our neck of the woods, as a Soviet former KGB agent type person who is a very big fan of American culture and tries to help him get home. This looks like a totally fun time at the movies. It looks like it might be very stupid, but I'm kind of here for that.

33:55Chris Hewitt:This is from John Francis Daly and Jonathan Goldstein. It is. Who are better known as John Francis Daly and Jonathan Goldstein, the directors of Game Night and of course Dungeons and Dragons Our Beloved Thieves yeah this is a big follow up to that movie and this is an original film written by Lem directed by Lem and it looks very very promising indeed I've written a piece for the magazine already talking to the directors about this and about how it is not quite what you expect from that line up alright and yeah, it looks very, very promising indeed. Look, I'm totally sold on it, don't get me wrong.

34:38I think it looks silly, but open brackets, complimentary, closed brackets.

34:42Chris Hewitt:Oh, I see. Okay. It looks fun. It's like, you know, it's an odd couple with fisticuffs. Maybe a midnight run energy somewhere in there. Well, that'd be nice, wouldn't it?

34:53Alex Godfrey:Did you see the Nova news? I did see the Nova news. Michael Waldron is apparently working on adapting a Nova movie because it turned up on his WGA card, so kind of the cat is out of the bag. This has been in, well, I say it's been in development for a while. There was talk of a TV series for quite a while, but now Michael Waldron of Loki fame is involved and it's being developed as a movie. Whether it will actually happen or not remains to be seen. I guess they're going to put together a concept, put a script together and then see if it will work. Shall we explain who is Nova? I see. I was hoping you weren't going to ask me that because I know that Nova has a dashing...

35:26Alex Godfrey:This is a Marvel Cinematic Universe movie, by the way. Right. Nova has a dashing helmet with a star on it as a member of the Nova Corps. But I must admit, that kind of galactic thread of Marvel, I never read any of the comics before. So I never read any of the Guardians comics, but it's very much of that ilk.

35:41Chris Hewitt:I read a few back in the day, and he would show up in things like Guardians, obviously, and Silver Surfer and whatnot. And I think he had his own comics a few times, maybe. Yeah. And the interesting thing about this is, of course, that Comic-Con is next week in San Diego. And we know that it's going to be a Marvel Studios presentation in Hall H on Saturday afternoon, as is tradition. And we expect that's where we're going to see the first real look at Avengers Doomsday. And we expect that's where they're going to show the whole bunch of the cast. And we may get the first look at Robert Downey Jr.

36:17Chris Hewitt:as Doctor Doom and all that stuff. But it's also where I would not be surprised if Kevin Feige took to the stage and announced the next phase of the MCU. and this movie might be one of those movies. You just don't know, but it would not surprise me if he took that stage because there's nothing at the moment in between Doomsday and Secret Wars, which is, so Doomsday is December and Secret Wars is meant to be next December as well. Now they made that work with Endgame. Whether they'll make that work with Doomsday and Secret Wars remains to be seen, but there's nothing in between. Now that might be their approach.

36:59Chris Hewitt:because or they might have been filming things in secret for a while and they might be in a position to go hey ryan kugler is making black panther 3 as we speak and it's coming out next may and we also have thor 5 and we also have a new guardians of the galaxy movie and we are because i think they're going to go down the route of heavy hitters recognizable names dr strange 3 things like that rather than taking gambles on stuff but i would love them to do shang chi 2 as I have often said in the podcast, and the fact that they're developing a Nova movie means that they haven't totally closed the door on, how should we say, less well-known properties in the Marvel Comics universe.

37:39So I expect that to happen.

37:41Chris Hewitt:I'll probably be completely wrong. I know someone who's going to be in San Diego next week at that panel in Hall H, so I will report back. Staying with superhero news, Blue Beetle is returning. Yeah, who saw this?

37:56Alex Godfrey:It's the return we've all been waiting for. Everybody's been talking about it.

38:01Chris Hewitt:I am so glad I can get all my life now. I really am. Now that Solo Maradona is going to return as Blue Beetle in Superman, Man of Tomorrow, which does appear to have everybody in it. And I mean everybody in that. So obviously David Cornswit as Superman, Nicholas Holt as Lex Luthor, Rachel Bosnagin as Lois Lane, who else is in it? Hawk Girl, Isabella Merced. Millie Alcock. Millie Alcock as Supergirl. Nathan Fillion as Guy Gardner. Eddie Gatheke as Mr. Terrific. Advia Arjona as Maxima, who may be Wonder Woman, we don't know. Aaron Pierre is going to be in it as Jon Stewart, not that one. And it's stuffed, stuffed to the gills.

38:45Chris Hewitt:But Blue Beetle was part of the previous DCEU and the movie came out and it was decent, but nobody really saw it. And we thought we'd seen the last of the character,

38:54Alex Godfrey:But no, he's back, back, back. It's an odd one to resurrect, isn't it?

38:59Chris Hewitt:I think James Gunn liked that movie and felt maybe a bit bad that he got kicked out of existence.

39:06Alex Godfrey:I don't know. A cynical part of me reads a certain amount of desperation in all this. Like they are throwing everything at the wall to desperately salvage the whole DC thing, which is going off the rails rapidly. I don't know how you could say that when Doomsday has every Marvel character that's ever been. And look, and you could 100%, and let's be honest, probably should make the same accusation there. There is an element of desperation to that too. But I have a certain amount of faith that that one will pay off. This one? Yeah, I feel like the... I'm not sure that desperation leads you to Blue Beetle as your saviour.

39:41Alex Godfrey:I mean, the film... He's here to save us, Helen. The film did somewhat bomb at the box office, it's fair to say. It was fine. No, I didn't say it was bad, but it bombed at the box office. Yeah, it did, it did. And, like, you know, he's a young actor. He's kind of up and coming. He's in Practical Magic 2, guys. Is he? Yeah. And it just feels like maybe, you know, he deserves maybe another chance in a way that and the character maybe could have another go around. He's a great actor. He was amazing in Cobra Kai. He's really, really good. Yeah, he is good. He is good. The weirdest thing about it, I think, is that James Gunn's new DC universe is just all over the bloody shop.

40:16I mean, it's supposed to be a clean slate, but here he is resurrecting characters from the older iteration. and then there's Batman films coming out which have nothing to do with it. I mean, it's just, it's still sort of really splintered, isn't it? Yeah. No, splinter technically is Marvel. Boom. Might make sense.

40:35Chris Hewitt:I'm hoping it'll make sense and maybe he's just playing the character again and it's not linked to what he did before. Yeah, absolutely. So it could be that. Batman Part 2, by the way, Matt Reeves' Batman Part 2 has been pushed back.

40:47Alex Godfrey:18th of April, 2028.

40:49Chris Hewitt:Okay. He's filming right now. Yeah. That really shared a little glimpse at it today on his Instagram. Looks cool. Looks moody. Looks... Yeah. Looks like the Batman. Looks like the Batman. That looked like a shot to me that was made for a teaser. Yeah. I think very much so. That's six years between films. That's quite the wait. Do you think it's too long?

41:13Alex Godfrey:I don't know. It's not really too long. There's certainly been longer ones, but it does feel like it's been... It already feels like it's been ages since the Batman. and it will certainly feel like ages by February 2028. It's been a lot of horror stuff. There's been a shot of the new Carrie TV series that Mike Flanagan's doing. I'm still curious as to how they're going to stretch that out over the series. But I'm cautiously optimistic and I like Mike Flanagan a lot. And then there was the Nightmare on Elm Street news. That's possibly wrong-headed, but the whole idea is they are I'm not even sure if they're rebooting it so much as possibly remaking the original movie because that seems to be what's happened here.

41:48Alex Godfrey:that Paramount have got the rights from Wes Craven's estate to kind of the screenplay of the original 1984 movie. So they're going to do something else with it. Obviously, the remake from, what was it, 2010 with Jackie O 'Haley? They did a lot of new things with that. They did, yeah. It was kind of much more dialed into the child abuse angle, wasn't it? Yeah, remaking the original would be interesting because it was a classic of sorts in its own right at the time, but it was Freddie before he became too comedic. Yes. Before he was the one icecracking. An actual monster rather than a kind of, you know, figure of fun.

42:20Yeah, which is what they did do with Jackie O. Hayley, but maybe too far in that direction. It'll be interesting what they do tonally. I mean, I have mixed feelings about it, because on the one hand, Leave Freddie Alone, there were a lot of them. I don't think you can really talk what Robert Englund did, and they were so entertaining, those films. Yes, well, some of them. A couple of them were very good, the rest of them.

42:39Alex Godfrey:I'm not sure, but I still watched them a lot. One, three, and seven, let's be honest. Okay, and...

42:43Chris Hewitt:Two, I'll bat for two as well. Two's fun. Good set of pieces. but on the other hand it's such an iconic horror character and it's been enough time I don't you know you could you could do it again they do everything else again I mean it depends what they do and how they do it

42:59Alex Godfrey:I'd be interested in a you know relatively faithful remake of the original film kind of updated to kind of modern horror aesthetics because again I feel like it's a film that's fantastic and it is a classic but it does show its age quite a lot and I wonder if you want to bring in a kind of young horror audience who are kind of weaned on things like obsession and back rooms and stuff, then this might be an interesting... Well, it's a great idea. You know, you've got a killer killing kids in their dreams and it's a brilliant monster. I mean, there's a lot of potential to do something good with it again.

43:29Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I agree. Helen, do you have any affection for the bastard son of a thousand maniacs? Or you've worked with James long enough now, I guess.

43:38It's fine. I don't have that attachment to it. So, yeah, whatever.

43:44Chris Hewitt:You just think that Freddy Krueger, he's up to no good. I stand by that assessment of him overall. Overall, I think he is up to no good and pesky and I don't approve. There you go. I said what I said. I said what I said. I said what I said. One, two, Freddy's coming for you. Three, four, better lock your door. He's a monster.

44:11Alex Godfrey:Yep, he's going for the whole song. Skipping rope is a bit much. Oh, no. And the dresses. And the little white dress, yeah. Stay up late. Chris has had two hours sleep. Nine, ten. Nine, ten. Never sleep again. Yeah.

44:30Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Anyway.

44:32Alex Godfrey:This is from someone who literally hasn't slept. So, is that the reason why you're afraid that Tony will get you?

44:37Chris Hewitt:I had two hours in the hotel. Of what? I... I had 30 minutes on the plane. Of what? 25 minutes when I go back to the flat today. Oh dear. Yeah. That's more than two hours. So I think I'm feeling pretty. Anyway, I think that's it for the movie news section. Don't you agree? I do. So, should we have a guest? I'm really flagging. Should we have a guest? Let's have a guest. Shall we have the director of The Odyssey? Shall we have the writer-director of The Odyssey? Oh my god. Shall we have the benighted writer-director of The Odyssey? Shall we have the Oscar-winning benighted writer-director of The Odyssey?

45:29Chris Hewitt:Chris Nolan's basically what I'm saying. Christopher Nolan, of course, to his friends. and who can forget his classic theme song. What? No. No, okay. He is, of course, the writer-director of The Odyssey. Listen, I'm fucking tired. I am so tired. I don't know what's happening anymore. Anyway, The Odyssey is out this week and it's been many, many years in the making and it is based on the epic poem by Charles Brandreth and it is a story of one man Odysseus played by Matt Damon who gets involved in a little skirmish outside Troy Helen you're the historian here you can correct me if I'm I'm getting any of this wrong so far no but I'm so far no I'm poised and there's a horse there's something to do with a horse there's something to do with a horse yes thoroughbred of fear and and then after the skirmish of Troy he tries to get home to his wife Penelope played by Anne Hathaway and his son Telemachus played by Tom Holland.

46:34Chris Hewitt:Not the historian. Not James's ruver. Not the Ipswich Town footballer, former Ipswich Town footballer. But the guy who plays Spider-Man. And it takes him ages because he misses his bus at Reading. No. And he encounters along the way, he and his men, a lot of obstacles. Only Christopher Nolan could have made this movie. It was shot practically, incredible cast. Whoever not mentioned, John Bernthal, Zendaya, Charlize Theron, Lupita Nyong 'o, Mia Goth. Mia Goth. Robert Pattinson. Robert Pattinson. Benny Safdie. Elliot Page. Oh, my God. Elliot. Oh, the big names just keep on coming. And it is absolutely splendiferous, as you will see in the review section.

47:16Chris Hewitt:And I was delighted to sit down with Chris Nolan in a London hotel room a couple weeks ago. And we had a good old natter about this movie. Enjoy. Christopher Nolan, welcome to the Emperor Podcast. How are you? I'm good. Good. Good to see you. Yeah, likewise. you're at the end of your odyssey how do you feel? Are you exhausted? Have you had the crash yet? I was going to say I'm at the beginning of the end Churchill would call it yes or the end of the beginning of the end yeah I mean I make films for the cinema I make them for the audience so for me the film isn't finished until the audience has told me what it is so this is a very it's a very nervous time for me So what is this time like for you then?

47:56Chris Hewitt:Do you watch the film with audiences once it's released? Do you sneak into screenings to see how it's playing, where it's playing? Yeah, I mean, it's daunting, but, you know, Emma and I will sneak into the back of a cinema when it opens and, you know, sit through some of it. We've always done that. It's always important to sort of see it with an audience. But it's scary. You know, it doesn't get any easier. So this is the beginning of the end of The Odyssey of You. What was the actual beginning for you? Because I know this has been on your mind for a long, long time, and you came close to directing Troy all those years ago.

48:33Chris Hewitt:But were you working on this, say, before Oppenheimer, or did it really begin to gather pace after Oppenheimer? No, I do one thing at a time. And my, I mean, some filmmakers develop 10 projects at once, and whichever one goes, you know, that kind of thing. I've never been like that. I do one thing at a time. And so my development process is years previous, you know, 20 years ago, I almost directed Troy. I had to figure out what I would do with the Trojan Horse. I came up with this idea of having it half buried in the sand, about to be swept away by the waves, sort of like the Statue of Liberty at the end of the first Planet of the Ages, like a fallen monument.

49:14That was the idea. It stuck with me for 20 years. I still wanted to do it. I desperately wanted to do it. And so coming out of Arpenheimer with the tremendous and unexpected success of that movie, which is thrilling and it also gives you an opportunity it's like they're going to let you do something that they wouldn't normally let you do that's the way the system works and I thought okay let's get the the Odyssey on modern cinema screens that'd be something to do

49:38Chris Hewitt:this is a film about a man who has literally lost his way we are reminded of that constantly during the Odyssey that Odysseus has lost his way literally and and figuratively as well of course you strike me as someone who doesn't necessarily lose their way creatively uh is that the case or were there moments during this where you thought i can't see the woods for the trees this is a huge undertaking i think both things can be true you know in a strange way i mean different filmmakers work differently for me a sense of control is important and essential i don't work well in chaos yeah but within the control you know what i've tried to put together with all my collaborators you know in particular hoity van and Hoytum, I'm a director of photography, and Ruth De Jong, my designer.

50:24I'm trying to create an arena in which people can create, in which there can be spontaneity, and I suppose in a way a little bit of chaos. But I have to be very controlled about the packets in which that's delivered, if you see what I mean, all the different segments of the film, because I want to feel a sense of control on the wider narrative. So in a way, I try to very tightly control the pace of shooting. You know, we stay on schedule or ahead of schedule. We stay on budget or under budget. Those are the kind of, you know, parameters that I always want in place. And then within that, you want things to take their own path.

51:05You want actors to come to set with surprises for you. You want the different creatives that you're working with, all these wonderful people. You want them to surprise you and challenge you and, yeah, maybe make a little bit of chaos on a particular day. and then, you know, pull something out of it. But my job is to keep the spine of the thing, the guardrails of the thing in place.

51:25Chris Hewitt:The fact that you place so much emphasis on shooting practically as well allows you to do that. But it also allows those happy accidents. You know, I always think about Raiders of the Lost Ark, the swordsman sequence, for example. Down to diarrhea. Absolutely. If Harrison hadn't had diarrhea, that sequence would be very, very, very different indeed. Exactly. Were there accidents, not like that, but were there accidents on this movie? I think accidents is maybe an unfortunate term. Yes, I realized that. But yes. As I backed into that sentence, I realized that. And yeah, we traveled the world. There were a few moments.

52:02No, definitely. I mean, of course, what you're talking about historically, and it's one of the most sort of famous examples of adaptation to circumstance. And when you go out, when you get out of the studio, you go around the world, you're constantly adapting the circumstance, whether it's the weather, just logistical difficulties, that kind of thing. There's always stuff. There's always things you're dealing with that forces you in particular directions. The ocean, for example. The ocean, very much. And we knew going in, I was getting calls back in Los Angeles where we prepped the whole film.

52:40I was getting calls about the beach in Morocco where we were going to shoot, that the waves were pounding, and then we're going to destroy the set. And there was bad weather coming in and maybe we should delay a couple of weeks. And, you know, and I called everybody up who was there and I was like, well, we want bad weather. Like that's, you know, we're trying to show the wrath of the gods, the wrath of the side and everything. So if we can find a way to safely film, we're there for the filthy weather. Like we're not there for a bright blue sky and a calm ocean. You know, we want to challenge these things.

53:11So you're kind of building in the opportunity to react to things when you embrace getting out and shooting in the real world.

53:21Chris Hewitt:Talking about building the story and writing the screenplay, it's fascinating. Obviously, we won't go into detail, but you, again, play with chronology in this movie. You play with time, which is something that has fascinated you throughout your career. Was that something that was always in your mind when you sat down to write the screenplay, or was it something that happened naturally? Well, the crazy thing is, I mean, I've spent decades doing interviews like this. I'm often asked about nonlinear narratives. I'm often asked about my approach to time. So, of course, then you go to the oldest foundational text of all of Western literature, and it has the most radical non-linear structure you'd ever encounter.

54:04It's stories within stories. It's flashbacks within flashbacks. And there's something pretty humbling about that because you go, yeah, this is not a new idea in literature. This is, in fact, the oldest idea. And so the structure of the poem is extraordinary. and as a screenwriter, you just grab that. I mean, yes, there's a lot of challenges to adapting Homer, but the challenges are very much enjoyed. The structure was not one of them. The structure's there for the taking. It's like, yes, it's a tale about storytelling. It's flashbacks within flashbacks. It's beautifully structured, and so I tried to follow that as best I could.

54:39Chris Hewitt:And use the construct of storytelling itself as a trigger for a lot less flashbacks, which, again, is inherent in the poem. Yeah, exactly. And the manner of storytelling is part of it. And the emotional effect of storytelling and mythologizing about these characters. I mean, with Tom Holland's character of Telemachus, you're dealing with a kid who idolizes this parent that they've never actually met. They don't have a conscious memory of this. And so, yeah, he's learned of his father through the mythology, through the songs and all the rest. And, of course, that informs Tom's relationship with Anne Hathaway.

55:16is playing Penelope because, of course, she's missing the love of her life. She's a real person, a real man that she knows is just a human being and is not the mythic figure of the tales that her son has grown up on. Yeah, it creates a marvellous tension between those characters.

55:32Chris Hewitt:Indeed. It's a film that is preoccupied with a lot of things. Loyalty is one of them. And it strikes me, again, you seem to be a very, very loyal person. You work with a lot of the same crew members again and again, And a lot of the same cast members again and again. Once you're in the Chris Nolan Club, you can get that invitation at any time. When do you know you're clicking with an actor? And maybe you're thinking, you know, Matt, for example. Well, I mean, it's a fair question. With actors, particularly movie stars, and Matt is a wonderful movie star, as well as being a phenomenally talented actor.

56:06I mean, he's a legend. And when I first, you know, called him up and I talked to him on the phone, I'd met him very, very briefly, I think at an award show or something. just to say hello to. But I actually called him up, sent him the script for Interstellar, convinced him to do this very, very small part, uncredited as well. Yes. But he and I, we just hit it off immediately in a creative sense. I mean, obviously in a friend sense as well. He's a lovely guy, very easy guy. I mean, he gets along with everybody. But in a creative sense, you start speaking the same language immediately. You just start talking about what movies are and about storytelling, and you realize that you have a commonality, that you have a shared passion for it.

56:55You see things in the same way, and that gives you a confidence that you should be pulling in the same direction. You don't need that with everybody you work with. I'm happy to work with actors or anyone on the crew, frankly, but actors in particular who have a very different view of what a movie is or coming to that. And that gives you a very different influence. I think in the case of The Odyssey, it was so important to have somebody leading the charge from the cast point of view, who we were completely on the same page with about the mechanics of filmmaking, about why we were doing what we were doing.

57:30Because Matt understands more than anybody what's going on on the set. And he understood my approach. He fully embraced my approach. And so when we were out there in pitching ways with the whole cast out and, you know, this boat, everyone's starting to feel a bit sick and whatever. He knows why we're there. So he's on board. I'm not having to convince him. And he's leading from the front. It's wonderful to have a creative partner like that.

57:56Chris Hewitt:Are you on that boat as well? Or are you on a separate boat? No, I'm on that boat. Being similarly sick at the same time. I actually find it, you know, I learned at Dunkirk. I actually have pretty good sea legs. Oh, good. It wasn't so bad. But, yeah, I mean, from a direct point of view, I don't use the monitor very much, and that's the key. If you look at a monitor on a pitching boat, you will get sick immediately. But if you're out watching to eye and seeing what Hoyt is doing, he's just got the handheld IMAX camera there, and we're out there just enjoying it. Yeah, I mean, it was intense, but we knew we were getting special things.

58:32I mean, there's a shot in the film where Odysseus is on the boat, and you see these dolphins playing in the waves. It was a very rough day, and I'm sure everyone will just figure that they're CG dolphins or whatever, but they're not. They're real. And, you know, working with Hoyter, working with Matt, it was like, okay, oh, there's some dolphins. Let's grab the shot, you know, and you just get all the elements in play for that. And you can only really do that with people who are very, very excited and enthusiastic about the approach you're taking.

59:01Chris Hewitt:Your casting instinct is so strong. I remember talking to Killian Murphy about the meeting for Oppenheimer where you showed up with the script and went off and walked around Dublin for a bit while he read the script. That meant you had him in mind for that. And did you have Matt in mind as you were writing this or did he begin to pop into view? I didn't have Killian in mind while I was writing and I didn't have Matt in mind while I was writing this. Because when you're writing, as a writer-director, you have to be very disciplined with this, I think. I mean, everybody does it differently. Of course.

59:33For my process, if I'm writing, I'm trying to discover the full potential of the characters on the page. And if I have an actor in mind, like if I'd been thinking of Killian while I was writing Oppenheimer, I would have limited the character.

59:47Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Inherently, you start writing to what you've seen the actor do, and that becomes limiting, because what you're actually looking to do with the character is present them with a challenge. You know, I want to put a script in front of Matt Damon that says, I know you can do this, but I want you to read it and think that maybe you can't. You know, I want you to be seeing things in this character that you haven't played before and that are going to challenge you. that's interesting because obviously it's a world away from something like Batman Begins where that was a whole casting process and you have all sorts of screen tests and chemistry tests and you're looking at a lot of people for the role of Bruce Wayne and Batman and now you are once you get the screenplay finished you are searing in on one person that you know or you hope can do it partly if I'm to be totally honest a lot of the screen testing process and chemistry tests and so forth at least for me a lot of that was for other people, for the studio, for the, you know.

1:00:41To reassure them. Yeah, I hadn't done those kind of films before. Of course. We were casting a very, very important character. I mean, to put, you know, Christian Bale in the bat suit, that's three movies, 10 years worth of, you know, one of their most important characters. And so, yeah, you're going through a process that is important for the whole machine around you. But as I've been more liberated from that, I get to trust my own instincts more. And of course, one of the things about casting that people forget is when you're looking at actors of the highest level, movie stars, people you know, all the rest, they can all do the job.

1:01:24That's not the question. The question is, are they the right fit for this film? Can you help them as a director to give of their best and do something extraordinary? And that's really down to how I feel about working with that person, what I can do with them. It's not about testing them to say sort of, you know, do they have the skills? They all have the skills, you know? I mean, that's the thing. It's like, it's really about me and what, you know, I knew that working with Cillian Murphy, I could bring out. And his Oppenheimer in a really cool way. And I felt the same thing with Matt and Odysseus very strongly.

1:02:03I knew he's at a time in his career and life where he gets this character and he can just, I mean, he just killed it.

1:02:11Chris Hewitt:How hands-on are you as a director in terms of in-between takes, taking actors aside and finessing what they're doing? I'm as hands-on or not as I need to be. I mean, there are actors who I don't talk to at all because it's not going to help them and they don't need that. There are actors I have long, long, very in-depth conversations with all the time throughout. My job is to be whatever director they need me to be, to feel comfortable and to do what they're going to do. And one of the really fun things about working with actors is they're all different. They all require different things. And yet the great actors, when they come together, like when you're filming a two-shot and they each have a different process, but they somehow accommodate each other's process.

1:02:54They somehow find the way to play the scene together.

1:02:57Chris Hewitt:Have you had acting lessons to have an insight into actors' minds? No. My uncle, who just passed away last year, he was an actor, a very good actor, and taught acting. And I put him in my first film, Following. He plays the policeman who's interviewing the protagonist throughout. And I went to him at the beginning and said, look, what do I need to know? And he said, you don't want to ever think it. He gave me a couple of books to read, Stanislavski, you know, just to get the basics of what's the process, the difference between, you know, externally indicating an emotion or believing it and thinking it and playing it in the moment.

1:03:41And he pointed out to me that beyond that, it's really down to me and finding a working relationship with the actors. So I've not burrowed too deep on it and that served me well. I'm fascinated by actors. I love their process. I love helping their process. But I don't tread on their toes because I don't claim to know how they do what they do.

1:04:01Chris Hewitt:So you're not offering Matt Damon line readings, for example. I'm trying to not offer anybody line readings. You really know you failed when you find yourself. And for anybody who's ever tried to direct, it's like the one thing for us non-actors that's an absolute is you'll have an idea in your head of how a line is going to be said. And there have been times in my career where out of frustration, I will then go, well, okay, and I'll try to give the line reading. And somehow you are completely incapable of getting what's in your head to come out of your mouth in anything like what you wanted it to be.

1:04:35And that's very humbling. You just go, yeah, there is a mystical element to acting. It is a magical process. It It connects our most human, empathetic responses in ways that we're really not able to analyze consciously. And that's what keeps it fascinating. And that's what keeps us as viewers. It keeps us really compelled by these movie stars, these incredible performers.

1:05:00Chris Hewitt:Can we talk about the most difficult casting search on this movie, though, which I imagine was the dog. It was brutal. yeah I've actually I mean you know you feel bad enough when you're when you're auditioning actors and there's a line of people you know dressed in the same suit sitting outside or whatever and you know that one of them or whatever with the dogs you know they just brought a couple dogs in and the dogs come up and kind of nozzle you like choose me choose me and there's one I was like oh yeah this dog would be great and then uh you know Sawyer our dog who plays August came in and immediately i was like oh no this is the dog and of course i've got this other dog like nuzzling up against me still with his eyes saying you know i want to go to sicily please put me put me in the movie and in front of him you literally have to choose the one over the other no it was absolutely brutal i won't go into specifics for obvious reasons because the people discover this themselves but there are moments and sequences in this film that for me felt as close as we have got to a Chris Nolan horror film.

1:06:02Chris Hewitt:Don't frighten people. We want people to come to the movie. I am a horror nut. Not everybody is. This is true. That is true. Was that something that you wanted to add to your bag of tricks almost? Well, I mean, in a way, I've always been interested in doing a horror film, but horror is most successful when the conceptual framework of whatever the story is, is just so undeniable, you know, and I think there are very few really great horror movies. I've never clicked with a particular idea or concept that worked for me. Okay. But I love the genre and I love the fact that of all genres, it's the most visceral, it's the most where the direct response to the audience is the most important.

1:06:45Yes. That is to say, you're trying to make people literally feel something in their bones about what's going on on screen. It's also the genre in which, you know, experimentation is demanding. So, you know, I go to see a lot of horror films, you know, with my kids and stuff these days. And you'll see things in the first half an hour, 45 minutes of any horror film that you would never see in another genre. Yeah. Risks that are taken, you know, dangerous approaches to things and all the rest. Admittedly, a lot of movies can't sustain that till the end. But in the horror genre, that kind of innovation is not just respected, it's really demanded.

1:07:24And I'm talking in the audiovisual sense, the imagery people get to play with, and the sounds and so forth. So it's a really cool space. And you're playing some really nice notions here as well. There's some really arresting images. Well, you've got Homer and you've got these stories and a lot of the Odyssey is based on horror or I should say the other way around. A lot of horror tropes come from things like the Odyssey when you're talking about the transformation of men into pigs and things like that. That comes from Greek mythology. and to kind of find a way to visualize that in the modern world.

1:08:00I certainly spent a lot of time with my team looking at, I come from that really cool era of like 80s transformation movies with incredible technology by geniuses like Rick Baker and Rob Bottin. And you really felt like we wanted to get back to that era of tactility in visual effects. And we want to try and add something to it and really provide a technology. And I challenged my team to come up with a technology that could be driven by performance. So that rather than telling the actor, in this case,

1:08:34Alex Godfrey:Samantha Morton playing Circe, she's an incredible actor. I've wanted to work with a long time. I didn't want her to have to turn up on set and tell her exactly where to stand or exactly how to do things. We wanted to come up with an approach to that sequence where she could lead it. Her performance could lead it. And it was really, really thrilling, thrilling stuff to shoot, I have to say.

1:08:54Chris Hewitt:Rick Baker and Rob Pateen is exactly how I was thinking of in that sequence as well. It's astonishing. Absolutely astonishing. Well, thank you. And you have the title card at the beginning, A Time of Apparent Magic, seems to apply to the filmmaking process as well. Yeah. I mean, a certain amount of double meaning going on with that title. But yeah, for me, the thing about movies is it is a magical medium and you are putting on a show and you are trying to trick the audience but you're also trying to involve them in the trick and have them enjoy the trick that's part of it. On that note thank you so much for your time.

1:09:27Thank you. Thank you.

1:09:29Chris Hewitt:Alright that was Christopher Nolan talking about the Odyssey what a joy that was and we'll get on to the film in a second because now it is time for the reviews section of the show but there are some other films that that have ventured, perhaps foolishly, into the cinemas and onto the sofa plexus this week. Fine for your viewing hours with the Odyssey. Hells Bells, what are they, and should we waste any time on them? Honestly, probably not, but with a caveat. So one of the films out this week is Heartstopper Forever, which stars Joe Locke and Kit Conner, directed by Wash Westmoreland, And this is the feature-length finale to Heartstopper, the TV show.

1:10:17So they're calling it a film, but I will be honest, it does feel like a feature-length episode of the TV show. It's all your favorite characters back. They're basically now in their last year at school. They're about to head off to university. They're figuring out how to deal with that seismic shift, how to kind of cope with their relationships, how do they keep going. I don't know anything about Heartstopper.

1:10:39Chris Hewitt:Who are these people? What do they do? they're kids they're just kids who are dealing with sexuality relationships you know teenage drama teenage sex and death essentially that no death oh I mean spoilers I guess but no death but no it's just like it's a nice group of young people who are doing their best to figure things out I don't want to say too much more than that because I don't want to get into giving away who's sealing who and who breaks up with who because some people break up and will they get back together Who knows? But look, they're a really likable bunch. They do good jobs. If you haven't watched the TV show, this will be Greek to you, to reference another film out this week.

1:11:24But it's perfectly well done. They all, you know, it's nice. This barely qualifies as a film. This is probably a pilot plus kind of a deal. But it is out this week on Netflix. And it's feature length. And it's feature length, so we're counting it. So I think, for me, this would be like a classic, probably three stars. It's totally fun.

1:11:45Alex Godfrey:And if you watch the series, you will absolutely watch it. If you don't watch the series, you absolutely won. If you watch the series, you probably add a star, I guess. I would say.

1:11:51Chris Hewitt:So this is the Piggy Blinders, the immortal man of Heartstopper. I mean, basically, yes. Yeah, basically. Okay. Because I watched that Piggy Blinders movie having never seen a second of Piggy Blinders. Yeah, so you'll love this. So if I watched Heartstopper forever, will I get it? Will I get the gist? Will I understand? Yeah, they will sort of set up who's who and who's dating who and all the rest. but it may take a bit of

1:12:09Alex Godfrey:investment in the characters. I don't know that there's any point. This is probably not the place to start.

1:12:14Chris Hewitt:All right. Three stars in for Heartstopper Forever.

1:12:20Alex Godfrey:What else? Well, there is Couples Weekend which is written and directed by Nora Kirkpatrick of US Office fame. And this sees Alexandra Daddario and Josh Gad as two best friends who take their respective partners played by Daveed Diggs and Ashley Park for a Couples Weekend away to celebrate New Year's in a kind of remote cabin. But don't worry. nobody gets murdered by a serial killer. What does happen is they get snowed in by a blizzard, which is particularly unfortunate because Daddario and Gad discover that their respective partners are having an illicit liaison or have an illicit encounter at least, and then they're snowed in and have to deal with the consequences.

1:12:54Alex Godfrey:And look, this film is not particularly good. I think it is particularly unfortunate that it follows on the footsteps of the invite, which deals with this territory exquisitely. and this is so kind of like, it feels so rudimentary by comparison. It's just basically people shouting at each other and getting drunk and occasionally dancing in the living room. I don't think it has anything particularly meaningful to say about the stagnation of relationships. And I just, I was really disappointed by it, if I'm honest with you, because actually from a setup point of view, it has a lot of potential. So I think even if you take the invite situation out of it, it's just a bit two stars, a bit flat, a bit bland and a bit boring.

1:13:32It feels stagey at times. it feels like overly mannered. There are moments where you're like, oh, that was a good moment. But that's basically all I really have.

1:13:40Alex Godfrey:And there aren't many of those. Yeah, I'm afraid not. So honestly, there's one film this week that you should be thinking about.

1:13:47Chris Hewitt:And that's Little Brother, which debuted a couple of weeks ago on Netflix. Eric Andre, Gabe crashes John Cena's life with hilarious consequences. It's fine. He pisses in his own mouth and John Cena gets his bum hole licked. That's all you need to know. five stars in for little brother and Christopher Nolan has just turned this off that is that is actually accurate for little brother but you know that's not a recommendation what do you mean did you not hear what I just said Eric Andre pisses in his own mouth and John Cena gets his bum hole licked anyway The Odyssey is Christopher Nolan's epic adaptation of the Homer poem who better to discuss this movie than these three fucking idiots assembled before me Who wants to talk about this movie first?

1:14:33Alex Godfrey:I must insist that Helen Reviewer, but she'd do the whole thing in dactylic hexameter. No, I can't, you see, because I read the Emily Wilson translation, which, as we all know, is an iambic pentameter. Oh, what a cop-out. Because dactylic hexameter is just a faff. I love the Mr.

1:14:51Chris Hewitt:Artrek, though. All right. Hellspells, as our resident historian and pedant.

1:14:58Alex Godfrey:And I cannot emphasize this enough, not history but carry on hey there is evidence that there was a Troy that was destroyed by war around the right time like there there is history-ness sure the monsters and the nymphs and the cyclops the odyssey is part of human history yes it's part of Greek mythology carry on it's his story if you will Michael Jackson it's an odd story anyway this is the story of Odysseus who is played by Matt Damon Matt Damon he was the one of the leaders of the Greeks during the Trojan War he is the guy who came up with the idea of the horse, which allowed them to basically win the Trojan War.

1:15:35You'll see why in the film. Spoiler. And yes, he then sails home and gets waylaid by various things en route.

1:15:45Alex Godfrey:And you moan when we're late for this podcast. I put it to you, we have never been two decades late to record. It may have felt that way, but we have never been 20 years late. It has frequently felt that way. To be fair, he's only 10 years late. It was a 10-year war. Yeah, it was a 10-year war, then a 10-year journey. Anyway, so basically, that is no spoilers. This is like the most established thing in the world, that it takes Odysseus a really long time to get home to Penelope, the Anne Hathaway character, and Telemachus, the Tom Holland character. And in the meantime, she is under siege, essentially, from suitors.

1:16:15Like Steve as a girl. Who want her to remarry and take one of them, because they basically want her money. And also, she's hot. She's Anne Hathaway. And they are led by Corey Hawkins and Robert Pattinson as the two biggest dickheads you've ever seen in your life.

1:16:30Chris Hewitt:Dickhead is, I think, is actually one of their names, right? That is, yeah, the Corey Hawkins character, I think, is Dickhead. Dickhead is some twatis. Dickus Dickus. Definitely not, actually. I don't get that energy from them, even slightly. So anyway, basically, that's it. And it's, as you would expect from Chris Nolan, it's not told in a linear fashion. There are sort of flashbacks within stories, within flashbacks in this film. It's meandering in a way that I think does honour to its hero. and it's absolutely fucking brilliant. I really want to get into this in ways that I shouldn't because it's a spoiler, but it is off the charts incredible.

1:17:08It is an overwhelming cinema experience. I highly recommend seeing it on IMAX, ideally on the biggest IMAX that you can get to. I was physically and emotionally and just narratively, cinematographically shook by it. I think it's brilliant. And I have not always been the most in the bag for Christopher Nolan. A Christopher Nolan Dictionary by Helen O 'Hara out next year. What changed? What changed, Helen?

1:17:40Chris Hewitt:You pinpoint the exact moment that you began to warm to the works of Christopher Nolan. How long did it take the check to clear? No, look, but going back and re-watching all the films for that did give me an appreciation of things that I had previously dismissed, I will say. But also, this film, I fucking loved. this is so my jam I can't even tell you I have been reading the Iliad and the Odyssey in preparation for this I know I know and so I can tell you that like this is so rooted in bronze age history and mythology it's off the charts there is a concept in this people talk about the sea people this is a thing that like the sources talk about it's not particularly in Homer he hasn't got that from the Odyssey itself but he's taken it from other sources around the same time like there's so much of this kind of gnarly detail to this that doesn't even just come from Homer itself, but like he's, he's gone out, he's done the research across all of the sources from the time and brought elements of that in.

1:18:38He has, as I really should maybe have expected, dialed down the gods stuff.

1:18:45Alex Godfrey:Yeah, he's Nolanized it. He's Nolanized it quite a bit in that sense. But, you know, what I didn't, what I didn't trust him initially to do when this was announced was he still has fucking monsters he still has fucking giants you know he has not tried to find ways to kind of rationalize his way out the more fantastical elements this is still a fantastical journey across not just the mediterranean but he clearly goes um a long way further than that i yeah 560 nautical miles i'm just saying look i I thought you were going to give it 560 stars. I would, maybe. Genuinely, I think it's off-tarts.

1:19:23Chris Hewitt:You'd give it 560 stars. 560 stars. No, I'm kidding. I'm only slightly exaggerating. You've got to leave room for Dune Part 3 to go somewhere. That's true. But I will say also, what I think is really interesting is, you know, there are, it might take a minute in this to kind of get into the way people are speaking. Like, I think especially like Tom Holland's character and there's a little bit of this in Anne Hathaway's character as well and Penelope, they sometimes don't speak in an entirely natural way there's an element of them not speechifying they're not they're not talking like shakespearean it's all very natural language but there's an element where it's kind of at a slight remove from everyday speech and i really really like that about it yeah because at one point telemachus refers to odysseus as dad.

1:20:08Chris Hewitt:I think he's his mom at one point. Nolan has made the decision to have every character in this speak with American accents. Which I know some people, certainly when the trailers came out, were bumping up against. I hated it in the trailer. What changed in the film? It worked in the film.

1:20:27Alex Godfrey:I think you get over it very quickly. The dad thing I bumped on briefly, but I think that's only because I bumped on it in the trailer and it just reminded me of that. but I think you get used to it. Also, I kind of, and I can't speak for Christopher Nolan, but it feels incredibly deliberate as a commentary on kind of fading American colonialism. And I feel like he very much, instead of choosing everyone to say, oh, just use a Mid-Atlantic or English accent, it's very clearly an American accent. And I don't think that's accidental. But also, it doesn't take you out of the film at all. And I would say it's not what you would call the plotiest story, right?

1:20:59Alex Godfrey:I think there are elements of it, certainly towards the end, where it becomes slightly more political and there's more plot going on. But it isn't. It is a kind of, it's told in sort of nested stories within stories. It's recounted by different parties to other parties what Odysseus' exploits were kind of post-Troy. And it's one thing after another after another. But essentially it is man tries to get home. Like that's basically the story. But it's about the texture and the, just the feeling of being there. There's a really desaturated kind of palette to it. The whole thing feels kind of as if you've washed up on a shore.

1:21:33Alex Godfrey:you can always feel the brine on your skin throughout the whole thing. It's a very singular experience. It is also, nearly three hours long, it is also punishingly dour, I would say. I don't say that as a criticism, but I do think it won't be for everyone because it's quite a lot as an experience. There were at least two laughs. Were there? I mean, it's a Christopher Nolan film. It's not a laugh a minute, but that's not what it's supposed to be. it's an extraordinary I think interpretation of that material and it maintains the kind of epic majesty of the story while making it feel contemporary as well and the fact that he pivots from a number of different genres that's been talked about but the Samantha Morton scene in this is basically a mini horror film in the middle of it it's really powerful really well done it's a great film my main criticisms of it I think would be my favourite act was the last act I think the homecoming is actually the best part of the film but I think there are a couple of storytelling moments that are unclear.

1:22:34Alex Godfrey:And we've all, I won't talk about it until the spoiler special, but there's one in particular that I've discussed with everyone who's seen the film and literally no one I've spoken to understands it. I think I got it on the second viewing. Okay, good. We'll never stop after this. Yeah, I watched it twice yesterday, which was quite an intense day.

1:22:49Chris Hewitt:Oh, like I did with Predators.

1:22:50Alex Godfrey:Predators! Predators!

1:22:52Chris Hewitt:Badlands. That is a lot.

1:22:53Alex Godfrey:Six hours of the day was spent in the Ionian Sea.

1:22:57Chris Hewitt:Wow. You really are in the pocket of Big Nolan now. This is incredible. Alex, what did you think about this? Did you think this movie landed emotionally? Because this is, I think, a movie that will surprise people. And there's lots of scale and spectacle. But the, I don't want to give too much away, but if you know the story, you know that it ends quite intimately. And it's going for big emotional beats at the end of the story. did you think it landed for you? Yeah, first of all I think I mean I won't discuss it but the way it ends actually is emotional in a way that I didn't expect it's something that Nolan I think brings to the material and contemporises it but yes I tell you what I don't it wasn't I absolutely love the film I've seen it twice the second time was last night I would happily watch it again tonight it is to coin a modern phrase absolute cinema it is really so much cinema and so awesome in the true sense of the word.

1:24:00And as I was watching it for two hours and 52 minutes the second time last night, and this is going to sound like hyperbole and maybe it is, but in that moment I did think no one else is doing it. No one else can do this as well as he is doing it to the level that he is delivering it. I just thought this is just as good as this sort of entertainment gets. It is emotional, but I think more in a very touching, sort of stirring way. It's not emotional in the way that Interstellar is for me, which really pushes my buttons and leaves me an emotional wreck. But I think it works. And it does it all really naturally.

1:24:39And I think that's one of the biggest things it manages to pull off because it is by its nature episodic.

1:24:44Alex Godfrey:There are stories within stories. And it's like, oh, they're going to do this now and then they're going to meet this monster and this is going to happen now. These people are going to turn up and then this is going to happen. and a lot of it you know. But it feels so fluid somehow because of the way he structures it and because the way he grounds it in the drama and the emotion. It feels propulsive. You never feel like it's not moving forward and it's not telling one story, even though there's so much going on. The editing, I think, is astonishing. I think especially those first sort of 15, 20 minutes where you're setting up everybody and all of these stories are nested within each other and you're having all these flashes from one person to the person they're talking about and that kind of thing.

1:25:22I think the editing in that section is off the charts great. I really, really loved it. Yeah, and I think, you know, we thought he was going to do the monsters. Like you say, Helen, we were hoping he wouldn't shy away from it and he absolutely doesn't. But I will say he does some of the things that you might know about if you've read the book or if you know what happens in such a natural way and in such a human way. he does things that in one sense are understated but on the other hand completely powerful and affecting he does things that could have been distasteful very very tastefully I think he's done it all really really delicately it's an amazing thing to do something so famous and something so massive and potentially unfilmable in a way that feels like it all makes sense yeah he's taken he's done it's a really clever adaptation as well he's left out basically the boring islands and he's taken bits of those that were maybe important or interesting and reuse them in different ways and i i love that about it again that just the textual richness of this is off the charts um and having i'm really really glad i just read the odyssey is not the thing i thought i would say but i really am it was yeah it was super super rooted in that but also not afraid to bring in some you know psychological insight and some depth and to develop the characters in a way that was not necessarily the case always in the poem but also to lean into the characters in the poem in a way you might not expect you know so telemachus in the poem is you know prone to tearing up and getting upset by things and feels really frustrated and isn't a particularly good fighter and worries about how he can make a difference in the world And that's all kind of there, even though it's Tom Holland and we know him as Spider-Man.

1:27:14Do you know what I mean? So they've kind of kept some of the stuff that maybe isn't even fashionable for nowadays and brought that up today. Well, he imbues it with meaning and purpose. And I don't know the book, but it feels like to me that he has made it personal. You know, there is stuff on Christopher Nolan's mind that he has put into this film and he has given it weight and meaning. and I just want to just one other thing I want to say about it is the casting is amazing we knew who was in it we knew it was this massive band of A-listers but everyone is so perfectly suited to the person and everyone plays to each actor's strengths I think

1:27:52Chris Hewitt:What about Matt Damon? How does he fare for you? Because he was I think he's interesting casting because he's you know he's obviously adept at playing people who are trying to find their way home that's something that's in his wheelhouse but when he was cast he doesn't strike me yes he's Jason Bourne but he's not a man mountain and for some reason I always had this image of Odysseus as someone who was a big tall brawny I never saw him that way he's not meant to be tall but he is meant to be broad yeah someone who's you know and obviously Matt Damon's bulked up etc etc etc but I think he's fantastic in this I think he's absolutely terrific but did he land for you as you know this guy who is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder absolutely I think he really grounds it he's the focus point for the whole thing and actually what's really interesting about his role is despite the weight of this whole universe of Homer's Odyssey being on Matt Damon's shoulders on screen it's not a showy performance there are much sort of bigger and broad, like successfully bigger and broader performances in the film like Robert Pattinson is incredible I was saying to someone this morning He is, broadly speaking, the villain of the piece, right?

1:29:08And he's having so much fun with it, but he does it in such a brilliantly nuanced way. It's a fine line. You tip it five degrees in the wrong direction and he could be sort of campy and moustache twirling, but he keeps that at bay and it's like this delicious thing that he does. But Matt Damon isn't clearly having as much fun. He's just doing a really, really brilliant job at anchoring everything, yet still with a load of charisma, And no, he might not be a man-mountain. He was pretty fucking ripped.

1:29:36Alex Godfrey:I mean, yeah, you wouldn't mess with him. He's not quite Ralph Fiennes in The Return, to be fair. He doesn't have that physique. But yeah, I think he fits it very well. Really, one of the things that struck me on this, and it's not just the IMAX of it, is that Nolan has such an eye for these incredibly arresting shots and moments. And there was a particular scene in this with Agamemnon, played by Benny Safdie, and you've seen him in the trailer. He has an extraordinary, I would say his outfit but his whole demeanor his whole presence the whole sort of vision of Agamemnon and look if I start dressing like that in the office you'll all understand right because I think I could pull that off I mean yeah that is maybe my favourite visual from the film it's just Agamemnon and in particular at a certain moment that we're not even going to talk about he's absolutely fucking terrifying he is a beast and he's Benny Safti and he's Benny Safti we have a rival for Aragorn in terms of best door opening is all I'm saying.

1:30:31Yeah, it really is. I don't think it's up there. He has people open the door for him.

1:30:36Alex Godfrey:Of course he does. He's a king. It's not as sexy. I want to be very clear on that. It's not as sexy.

1:30:41Chris Hewitt:It's pretty fucking sexy. Oh, boy. We should also talk about, because I completely forgot to mention him, and I think in some ways one of these characters in particular is key to the heart of the movie. John Leguizamo, who's terrific as Emeas, who is a sheep herder who's very, very faithful to Odysseus and stays the course over the years that he's gone. And Himesh Patel, who is Eurylochus, who is his second in command. And both of them, I think, are examining the concept of loyalty in very interesting ways. And both are terrific in this and shouldn't be overlooked, I think, in the rush to mention the A-listers, which is exactly what we did a few minutes ago but they're both great there are so many people so many people in it Leguizamo thing is it's a beautiful performance and maybe the most one of the most sympathetic in the film incredible absolutely we should shout out by the way you're talking about composition and what not and editing we haven't mentioned the editor is Jennifer Lame who is his long standing editor cinematographer of course long standing cinematographer Hoyt van Hoytema great score by Lubick Goranson as well off the chart score incredible It's incredible.

1:31:57It's really out there. It's very different from anything you might expect. It's on another plane. I mean, I don't even know how those sounds. No idea. Extraordinary score.

1:32:08Chris Hewitt:Ruth Young, production designer. But this is a Chris Nolan film. Absolutely. Every frame is fused with his unique, inimitable Nolanosity. We've given it five stars. Would you say that's fair? Would you agree? Would you concur? I mean, yeah, I guess. if there are no more available. Helen would give a 5 plus 555 more.

1:32:31Alex Godfrey:Jimbo, would you concur? Yes, I would say it is unarguably a five-star film. I'm not sure that it's right up there with my top Nolan films, but it's a fucking good film. And I would say at this point in the year, it is the film of the year.

1:32:44Chris Hewitt:Five stars then for Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. We'll be doing a couple of spoiler specials for this. We'll be doing an immediate reaction show, which will hopefully be up on Friday. We're recording it tomorrow. Helen will not be there for that one. She's boning up in her books, but she will be back for the next one, which will be Helen banging on about all the things they got wrong. I'm not... I will say, if you are a nerd, he's not going for absolute historical accuracy. The costumes are very much in the vein of, inspired by, you know, the way Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatra costumes looked suspiciously 60s.

1:33:26That's fine.

1:33:27Chris Hewitt:That's fine. But I may, I'm going to try not to talk about earring backs and how much they annoyed me. But I'm really going to try. I will press a button and the button will go... Okay, and just like... No, I'm not going to electric shock you. That would be fucking inhumane. What do you think I am? It'll just buzz at me. Oh my God. I'm a monster! You're a monster! And on that note, I think that is it for this week's Empire Podcast. Join us next week for more film-related fun, we'll be joined by the aforementioned Tom Hiddleston, who will be talking about his television show, James. What's happening?

1:34:03Chris Hewitt:The streams are being crossed.

1:34:05Alex Godfrey:Yes. Why on earth would you cover a television show that takes you on a holiday?

1:34:10Chris Hewitt:I don't understand.

1:34:11Alex Godfrey:It makes no sense.

1:34:12Chris Hewitt:I had deep-fried pizza. We will deep-fry your pizza. It blew my mind and blocked my arteries, and I regret nothing. it was absolutely incredible anyway Tom Hiddleston will be on the show next week to talk about that in terms of other interview things I should say that we have an Odyssey interview special with Matt Damon and Tom Holland and Himesh Patel and John Lucas Amo as well talking about the Odyssey and we'll have another episode of the interviews next week as well with the likes of Mary Steenburge and we will also be putting up oh my god am I going to get time to do all this when I was in LA not only did I go to the Digger trailer event and hang out with Mr.

1:34:55Chris Hewitt:Cruise, I also did two separate one-hour interviews. Friday was a busy day for me. I went to Scott Aukerman's studio to sit down with the creator and host of my favorite podcast of all time, the Empire Podcast. No, Comedy Bang Bang, which is an amazing, amazing improv comedy podcast. if you've never heard it, listen to it. It is incredible. And we chatted for an hour. They're coming to the UK next week, the Comedy Bang Bang All-Stars. They're going to be playing dates in London, Bristol, Leeds, Manchester, Glasgow, and Dublin. I will be at the Dublin show. If you see me and my wife there, come and say hello.

1:35:37Chris Hewitt:It'll be, we will scowl and run away. But that was a great interview with Scott Aukerman. Thank you, Scott, for being so generous with your time. And I also sat down for an hour in his office with John motherfucking Wu who has a season dedicated to him and his movies mainly his Hong Kong action cinema heroic bloodshed movies things like The Killer and Bullet in the Head and Hard Boiled and A Better Tomorrow 1 and 2 but also the likes of Face Off and Hard Target and Red Cliff both parts of Red Cliff as well no Mission Impossible 2 no Windtalkers no Paycheck but you can't have everything that's on the BFI Southbank is called The Films of John Woo, Bullets and Brotherhood.

1:36:19Chris Hewitt:Tickets for all those screenings, some of which will be introduced by people who are not me, you'll be delighted to know, are on sale right now at bfi.org.uk and those interviews will be up as soon as I am humanly capable of doing so. But that is it definitely now for this week's Emperor Podcast. Thank you as ever and goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning. Goodbye, Alex Godfrey. Bye. Goodbye, James. Goodbye, Chris. Goodbye, Helen. Toodaloo. And it's goodbye from me as well. I am off to the Roosevelt's website, RSVLTS, to buy a golf polo shirt that they have called simply The Grant.

1:37:00Chris Hewitt:It is inspired by Sam Neill as Alan Grant in Jurassic Park. I've had it in my basket for weeks. I have not pulled the trigger. Do it. And now is the time. If it's sold out, I'm not going to be happy. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.