Hoppers ft. Daniel Chong & Nicole Paradis Grindle

23:04Chris Hewitt:every permutation so you had like a big board going okay trying to keep track of who's hopping into whom that to me was what the fun of the movie was going to be and certainly got some of that still in the movie but um but again that's that's the that's the way we just pushed it as far as we could got notes and then start pulling back and tried to make more sense of it so yeah i love the Well, whenever humans see the animals, they appear as animals. But once someone's hopped into them, you know, they become anthropomorphized. My God, I can never say that word. I can never say that word. I loved the Jerry Beaver had Jerry's haircut.

23:42Chris Hewitt:Was that always in there? Yeah. Well, I wouldn't say always in there. But I mean, the idea that there were two worlds, that was always in there. We always knew we wanted like a more animal view of them in a more cartoony world of them. And that that would emphasize the idea of hopping and getting to go into a brand new world. So that was always there. But I think we it took time for us to realize like, oh, there would be ways to distinguish them when they're cartoons to kind of look a little bit more like them. And I think that slowly came within the process of just having fun boarding it. But we never knew how much of a laugh that Jerry shot was going to get.

24:17But we did a I think we did an audience preview the last audience preview we did And I think Jerry was done the model and it was like the biggest laugh like revealing Jerry and everyone like died laughing We're like, oh, I guess that's a joke. We can just see it felt normal to us like okay

24:35Chris Hewitt:Of course you do have an issue in the movie as well But communication what we have here is a failure to communicate and you get around that and really really interesting inventive ways I love the mobile phone gags or cell phone gags if you're in the States, of course. Can you talk about that? That's one of my favorite scenes where they're all in the car and everyone suddenly is doing the emojis, hammering emojis. Yeah. Well, where do I start? How did we even come up with it? Yeah. I mean, I can't remember that. Okay. Well, the story I'll tell is that like we conceived it in the, you know, when we realized that they had to communicate with Jerry somehow.

25:10And you know, I think we had just come up with this idea of the cell phone and that Jerry wouldn't be able to stand So we'd be doing emojis and stuff and it came it was kind of a story Storyboard driven sequence meaning that we didn't really write it out that much I mean, obviously our writer Jesse is there for everything and he'll just conceive it in the room But we never really scripted it immediately. We went straight into storyboards We just had a couple concepts and our head of story John Kim actually just straight up boarded it that's why it's such a visually gagged or visually minded kind of sequence um and i remember after we put that in a screening it was like our third screening we had so it was pretty early um andrew

25:48Chris Hewitt:stanton saw it he was like well that's in the movie and and and it was so it gave us so much confidence you know we were like oh like it like he already sees things that are gonna be permanent that early in the movie and again and he was right you know and of course andrew's seen so many things and done it all, you know? So the fact that he's validating something so early on helped us give us a lot of encouragement, I think. Yeah, and that's very much the way we make the films at Pixar is you'll find something that's really entertaining. Often it's not a scene that's pivotal to the plot. It's usually something that, you know, it just kind of can float around and it's just funny and it somehow captures the heart of what makes this film funny and entertaining.

26:29And this was one of our anchor scenes. I mean, the first scene we produced was the one where Mabel meets Loaf and then the bear comes out. And that was the first one that went into production. But this is the first one, I think, that, as you say, you know, was, you know, that's going to be in the movie. That kind of captures the sensibility. And we now know what we're chasing throughout the rest of the movie and the rest of the story. And that sequence did not change very much. No, no, no. It stayed pretty much the same after that third screening. And it always made everyone laugh. Yeah. It always did.

26:57You know what was the hardest thing about that sequence, though? It was finding the robot voice of the phone. That's right. Because we, you'll be surprised. You think it's just a robotic voice, you know, that'll make that joke funny. But that voice also needs a little bit of humanity, a little bit of warmth to make it funny. Because if it's just a robot, it sounds cold. But it needs to have a little bit of that, you know, motherly, like, it's okay. Like, you'll be okay kind of thing. And so we did a lot of trial and error with different actors. I think Melanie, Melanchino. Menachino, yes. Menachino did it.

27:32but yeah it took a long time to get the right sound of that voice oh it's brilliant chop logs chop logs yeah it's a very very good thing it's harder than you think

27:41Chris Hewitt:I guess is all I'm saying I thought it was pretty good that was pretty good thank you alright thank you pal detector no no no that was for the audience I was auditioning for the sequel by the way so I've only got a couple minutes left I wanted to talk about I mean this is filmmaking is all about choices. And when you're making a movie like this, you must have millions of options to choose from. So how did you land upon the idea of the apex predator being a shark called Diane? Well, there used to be more. There used to be. Yeah. There was a plot where they, like you were saying in a mission impossible movie, they might say, okay, we're sending out all of the assassins.

28:24Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And so there were a bunch that I think we had a wolf. We had, um, and, and then as you, an eagle, And then you have to pare it down in order to make the story efficient. And you just love the shark. And we all did. And a shark named Diane. I mean, come on. And that's something that you've always brought to this is wanting to give all of the animals these sweet kind of human names. Like, you know, just another person in the office. And so, you know, Diane, we have Lucy the deer, you know. And so that was the one that made it through. And also just this callback to Jaws and the birds. and yeah and i think i think when it came down to it the shark felt like the most shocking the most ridiculous the most like yeah uh the the one that would create the most like i don't know what's happening here you know and that that is kind of the vibe we wanted is that the audience at this point is just like okay i guess this is happening you know but they're still on the ride and that is the fun about making a movie that just gets crazier and crazier is that you you try to sell them on you start with like crowns for example do you can you believe that animals wear crowns and we figure out a way to make you believe that and then we go okay how about this can you accept that this happens that there's a council okay you're on the board let me keep going you know and then you keep pushing the audience towards the edge of craziness and you just you they don't realize by the end of the movie they've accepted you know a robot you know an animal in a human body and that all the all the people have bought into it so totally normal yeah totally normal yeah you just it kind of normalizes crazy yeah and then at a certain point you're just kind of like, I'll accept anything, whatever you throw at me.

30:00And a lot of that, it takes just time to teach the audience and get them to go our world. This can be true. This can be true. Then you're pushing towards the edge until you don't, but they don't can't fall off. They have to just stay on that edge that that's kind of the game of a movie like this. I love that. Yeah.

30:15Chris Hewitt:Because, because the minute you introduce the concept of the apex predator, you're on tenterhooks going, okay, is it going to be a bunch of animals? As you said, Nicole, or what's, what's going to happen? When's it going to be revealed? I did not, again, I predicted 10 % of this movie. I did not have a bunch of birds lift a giant shark out of the ocean and then chase after a car. Didn't have that on my dance cart. Great. That's exactly how we wanted it. That's good. I'll let you guys go, but I just want to ask one last thing, which is about the final shot of the movie, which is just really, I mean, obviously there are a couple of stings as well.

30:49Chris Hewitt:I'm glad the old man got his milk and his eggs and his bread. But that final shot of George and Mabel sitting together, can't communicate, but they're still best friends on the rock that represents the grandmother. That's a beautiful way to go out. Oh, absolutely. I mean, George has basically replaced Grandma in Mabel's life. They can't quite communicate the way they could before, but of course they've got the phone. So that allows them to maintain that link. But also that it's a moment that's hopeful. You know, the glade, it's no longer the glade that it was when she was a child, but you can see it's growing back.

31:24It represents the resilience of nature and also the resilience of her ability to make a relationship with another. I mean, I also have to say I love that she's connected with the scientists. One of the themes that came up while we were working on the film, we worked with these environmental consultants. They were young organizers, and they always said they were frustrated that she didn't have more relationships over the course of the movie. And we realized that that was actually part of the story that we were telling, that she was isolated. And then by the end of the movie, she's connected with these scientists.

31:55She's recognized that the way to make change, to make the world a better place, is to build community and connect. And then ultimately, she has this connection with George and with nature. And hopefully, we're leaving everybody on a really hopeful note that there is the opportunity to regenerate and repair. Absolutely. You were right. This felt really good to get all this out. I've not talked about this stuff out loud.

32:18Chris Hewitt:Was that always the last shot, Daniel? Yes. Yeah, good. I think so. I think we always knew that was going to be the important mirror, is that she now has this new relationship with George. And it's not the same, you know? And it's different, and even the Glade's different, but, you know, she can move on. Absolutely. And we're going to move on as well, guys. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for the good time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Fun. Okay, that was Daniel Chong and Nicole Paradis Grindle. It might be Paradis. I don't know. I didn't actually hear her middle name being pronounced.

32:50Chris Hewitt:So, Nicole, if I got that wrong, then I can only apologize. I will blame the person who is hoppering me, piloting me, whatever it is that happens in this frankly demented movie. Before we get into it, before we get into the movie itself, let's interrogate that, shall we? The idea that this is a return to form for Pixar. So, it's a really, really fun movie. The last movie was last year's Elio. before that they are doing one a year at the moment Pixar they've stopped doing two or three a year if they ever did three a year Elio Inside Out 2 in 2024 2023 was Elemental 2022 was Lightyear oh yeah I see it I see it now now I get the return to form thing before that was Turning Red then Luca I'm not going back that far back I'm going to draw the line in Toy Story 4 I'm going to say from onward onward so onward Sol Luca Turning Red, Lightyear, Elemental, Inside Out 2, Elio, and now Hoppers.

33:49Chris Hewitt:That's a pretty good lineup of films, right? I think that's a good run. I think that's an underrated run, I'm going to say. I think there's definitely, like, Lightyear is the clunker. Elio was a perfectly fun time, but even some of the slightly lesser ones in that run, like Elemental, have some of the best and most expressive animation that Pixar have done. And then you get something like Turning Red, which is a real absolute banger in my eyes. Turning Red is delightful, but I would... No. I'm not saying it's the original Pixar run where they were just flawless. I mean, this is the problem. When you're talking about Pixar runs, you don't get to go, that's a good Pixar run.

34:27That might be a good run for Blue Sky. Ooh!

34:31Chris Hewitt:That's right. Shots fired. But this is Pixar, and that to me is... like Elio was totally fine. He's a nice little boy and I liked him a lot. I wished him well, not in a Chris way. And I just, well, you know, you wished me well in a way that suggested you wished me ill. Oh, Helen, have you hit upon a running gag that wasn't in the list of running gags? Oh my goodness, I think I have. Anyway, yeah, I think, I think, you know, I liked him as a character and I just thought the film was silly and pointless. And this one, I think, is silly and pointful. You didn't drink the glow on that one no Inside Out 2 I think maybe I had two high hopes but even so it's just fine to me Elemental is just fine and it's a really mixed up metaphor deeply mixed up metaphor do you know a good taste test for this and John I'm going to bring in this in a second is that of those films from onward onward I think the only one that I have seen more than once is Soul and the no that's not true I saw Elemental more than once but that was for a spoiler special but otherwise I haven't been overly minded to see even the ones I really enjoyed like Turning Red I haven't been overly minded to see them more than once I don't think that's going to be the case with Hoppers because this is absolutely fucking bonkers and I want to see it to see whether the bonkersness is organic as in are there seeds planted in Act 1 that pay off in a completely unexpected way in Act 3 but that's how I look at this run I think it's an okay run so I can absolutely see the return to form thing yeah i i think that's right i i think when we talk about a pixar run we're talking about their original slate which is you know toy story from 95 going up to do you want to go through it i mean i think it's going up to toy story 3 in 2010 with the exception of cars all of those films pretty much flawless they're pretty much it's a run of five star films yeah and and like you say gross they are so rewatchable and all of those films i've seen multiple times and yeah the recent stuff i've just not felt the need to go back to um so that's why this feels a bit more refreshing i still don't think it is top tier pixar i think it's four stars rather than five i think top tier pixar to be top tier pixar at this point you have to be almost masterpiece level yeah you do you have to be five star give me an oscar now yeah fuck every other animated movie off you have to be that good right you do and and look i i get that that's an unfair maybe thing to request of a studio however here we are requesting it um and i think that for this one for me was um was just such a surprise because the premise even the trailer trailer is likable i went back and watched it again the trailer is fine it's likable it's funny but you know i'm you know me and talking animal movies they're not my favorite kind of animation so i was just like oh okay it looks fine.

37:29And I kind of went into it with low expectations, which again, may have helped it in a way that my high expectations of Inside Out 2 hurt that. I'm willing to allow that. But at the same time, it just kept building and building and building in pace, in content, in just the weirdness of it, in jokes. It got funnier and funnier and funnier, even as the stakes got really high um just the weird stuff kept coming and i was just delighted by it i just couldn't i just like you said i you didn't know where it was going next from one minute to the next you had no idea what this film was going to do and that is so rare especially in animation actually because a lot of the time you can see oh look you know that minion's going to fart or something you know it's like it's pretty obvious hey don't you come with the minions hey i'm just saying they fart sometimes and it's delightful every single time especially when it's from a gun yeah what i appreciated about this film is like it is ostensibly you know the sort of thing that disney and it's their rivals have been doing for years which is cute animals do cute things and i watched the trailer thinking oh this is what that film is and to some extent it is but it's it's so much weirder than that and i really appreciated how weird it was what what i think they they cracked is the fact that nature is bonkers nature is so strange especially like looking at it from a human perspective and they've really like tapped into that so well this this sort of like the moment when uh who is it the character who's just like well yeah i'm gonna gonna get eaten that's just what happens i believe that's loaf the beaver the beaver who just very casually just like well pond rules you You know, I just thought, oh, this is great.

39:17I love that so much because that's one of the things in a lot of these cutesy animal movies. Like, oh, we all get all together. It's like, no, you don't. Your species eats his species. Exactly, yeah. And I think one of Pixar's strengths historically has been sometimes to play with that. You know, that's the whole fish are friends, not food. Yes, yes. Thing in Finding Nemo. And here they really take it to another degree. They're like, yeah, we all eat each other and that's okay. Yes. I was at D23 when they announced this film, when they kind of unveiled what this film was going to be. They did a big presentation on a bunch of various Disney parts of the brand.

39:55And there was a Pixar bit, and they were like, hey, we're doing Toy Story 5, and here's some stuff about Elio. Boy goes to space, fun times. Then they were like, and we have hoppers, where the girl puts her mind in a robot beaver, and there's a whole colony of beavers, and that's Bobby Moynihan, and he's got a tiny crown. and you could just feel everybody in the room be like what the fuck is this film but it sounds fun and there was a sense of weirdness from the off I think the weirdness in this film is organic and I think part of the reason it's so successful is the weirdness of it the tone of humour and the visual style all go completely hand in hand it's not been none of those bits have been grafted on afterwards in a sense of like oh we've got to do this to like zhuzh it up it feels like it was all there in the genesis of it that all those things work together.

40:42Chris Hewitt:Yeah, it feels like there's maybe a couple of things that did get lost in the shuffle. For example, we never find out what happens to Mabel's arm, how she broke her arm. I didn't have time to ask that question of Daniel Chong. We know how these movies are made. A lot of stuff can drop out and be moved around and sometimes remade almost entirely just weeks from release. But I get a sense that all the really weird shit in this film was baked into the premise of the movie. And I love that. I absolutely love that. it's interesting before we get into the specifics of it does it feel like a Pixar movie to you and is it refreshing that maybe it doesn't it does feel it has that sort of frenzied quality of an illumination movie or something like a Madagascar and that is just a gag machine for a lot of its running time I think it does feel like new Pixar to me it feels like turning red how do you spell N-U Pixar?

41:35N-U wow you're so cool this is what the animation heads are calling it now i've just made that up um it feels of a piece with turning red to me which again i think is a film that is pushing a little bit of the boundaries of what pixar could be yeah and again where the style of it and the humor goes hand in hand with the visual style and the presentation and i think both of those films for me are signs of pixar starting to move with the times a little bit because I think part of what you get with Spider-Verse is not just a shift in like, here's a totally crazy animation style you've ever seen. The pace and the humour feels like it has taken a quantum leap to the previous generation of animated films.

42:26So, to me, there is a lot of stuff, and we talked about it a bit with Mitchells vs. the Machines as well, of like almost meme style internet humor coming into animated features. And I think films like Turning Red and Hoppers, from a Pixar perspective, have enough of the Pixar identity, but are moving into like a slightly more current form of humor. Whereas like when Toy Story arrived, that was a total game changer because it was like, oh, there's jokes for adults. And it's like an essentially quite grown up concept, but with also extremely kid-friendly because it's toys. And that was part of the reason why Toy Story was such a shift as well as the 3D animation.

43:08And I think Spider-Verse is that again with the style of humor and that's partly why the studios, other studios, are kind of running to catch up because it's not just about the visuals. It's that fundamentally kids nowadays and the rest of us, we absorb so much of our humor in different ways, in internet mediums, and now that is kind of bleeding through into stuff like this. I'd compare this more to Sony than to Illumination, to be honest, for that reason. Really? Absolutely. And I think it's exactly that. And it's the way that the animation style in this changes. For example, the way George's design changes depending on whether he's talking to other beavers or talking to a human.

43:45His eyes are completely different. He looks like a completely different character. And that's because we're seeing literally through different eyes, and the film is going with that. And I'm not... I would like to think they would have done that pre-Spiderverse, but that's definitely the sort of thing that is more common now, post-Spiderverse. Yeah. But I think there is stuff here that is recognizably Pixar. Like, I really loved the opening of the film where they're setting up the characters, they're setting up this sort of central relationship with Mabel and her grandma, which is like the emotional stakes that drives the whole film.

44:20And I thought... Yeah, that's very up. Very up, exactly. I found that really affecting the moment where she sits on the rock and there's peace and she just lets the sounds of nature come in it's just really moving and it's obviously not as powerful as Up which every time I watch I am just to ugly tears but it's still really powerful and so even when it gets absolutely wild and silly there's still something sort of serious driving it, which I really appreciate it.

44:55Chris Hewitt:And they tether Mabel to her grandmother throughout the movie. So even as this gets crazy, we'll have a little visual flashback or there's something like the jacket, which is a motif that runs all the way through the film. There's the rock, of course. What's interesting is that they burn the jacket. And I thought it was a really, really brave decision to do that because that is something that literally physically links her to her past. And, you know, nope, we're burning it. you're moving on this is it this is your grief and we're burning it that's like Carl leaving the house behind you know it's you know sometimes you have to let go of the of the anchor you should have burned the house well no she still has her granny's house by the way no I mean I mean Carl's house wow yeah you're a monster with Russell still all the alien wow

45:44you're a monster well listen

45:47Chris Hewitt:we're not here to interrogate up are we or the ways it could have been improved no it's my favorite Pixar film and yes ugly tears every time they killed Christopher Plummer's character and I go no the good guy no no not him have you heard the theory about how this fits into the grand unified theory of Pixar oh Jesus age Christ go on then there is a whole theory that this is the key to unlocking the grand unified theory of Pixar okay which is that like for example Brave takes place in the time that they all take place in one universe one cinematic universe Yeah, well, yeah. The PCU. And that there is an apocalypse that is going to wipe out humans and we're all going to be replaced by cars.

46:29By cars, yeah. But along the way, obviously, we learn to talk to animals and the animals, you know, take over. So this has a moment when, with the blackboard, with Kathy Najimy's character, you can see behind her, a collar to talk to dogs. She has been studying other Pixar movies, clearly, learning from them and has lots and lots of crazy ideas for changing the future.

46:52Chris Hewitt:Yeah, apparently, because I only saw the dog collar gag because it's right there, it's front and center, but apparently it's a bit like the Derry Girls blackboard. That blackboard has so many in-jokes and gags in it. Protestants really do keep their toasters out on the counter. That's real. What do you mean? What? Sorry, Catholics keep their toasters out on the counter. Protestants put it in the cupboard. Catholics keep their Protestants where? Where do you keep your Protestants? Catholics keep the toaster on the counter. Protestants put it in a cupboard. That's not fucking true. That is not true.

47:24This Pixar podcast took a sectarian turn.

47:28Chris Hewitt:I'm turning orange here. Come on now. Anyway, that's fine. Let's park it to one side, shall we, for the time being. Let's talk about the movie itself. Finally, fucking 20 minutes in. Let's talk about the movie itself, which is just, again, gloriously unpredictable. I said to Daniel and Nicole in the interview that I predicted accurately 10 % of what happened in this film. I had no idea the crazy avenues that it would run down. And the line that was in the trailer, very prominent in the trailer, and it's in the first, what, 20 minutes of this movie as well, which is, I think it's Dr. Sam going, this is nothing like Avatar.

48:09Chris Hewitt:And you go, okay, yeah, okay, you're trying to head him off at the pass because it is Avatar, but it ain't. It really, really isn't. I would love to see an Avatar film where the Na 'vi get into human Avatar bodies. Ooh, I've got five fingers now. I don't like it. I don't like it. It's too many fingers. What? I feel so small. Yeah, it is so wildly unpredictable. And that's what I love about it. Yeah, I think, you know, some of the developments that this takes, really they do whiz past what the hopper's technology is and where it comes from it's kind of a hand wave we created this you're going to hop in the machine I didn't really expect that a lot of the film was going to be Mabel's first hop and that she goes on the run in the technology and so with that as a sort of narrative engine the film is like on a runaway train from there because she's effectively running from the rest of the hopper's team who are trying to track her down.

49:11She's trying to make her way into the Beaver Society. There's also a countdown element because of the time component of when Jerry's going to sort of blow up the Glade to build the bypass. And so you have all these things that are pushing the film forward. I loved the energy of it, just hand-waving the stuff. It's like, eh, that's the concept, go with it. That meant from there, you could get into the crazy shit of like, oh, there is an animal council of all the different, like the birds and the fish and the insects and the crazy shit with that and the moment when Mabel squished the insect queen.

49:48Oh my God. I was cracking up and I was like, I don't know what's going on from here. This is amazing. We've really like upped the stakes. Oh, upped. Very good. I thought there was going to be much more of a, you know, if we don't get a ride within 23 hours, her mind will be mush kind of a thing. And they didn't, they kind of mentioned it in passing that they didn't really worry about it. They're not interested in it.

50:08Chris Hewitt:They're interested in exploring murder and its consequences. Okay, you brought up the squishing. And I love the squishing is something that runs all the way through this film. Squishing and the dangers of squishing and fear of squishing. We have to squish the mare. We must squish the mare. And you won't believe how we're going to try and squish the mare. You could write down a thousand guesses for how we're going to squish the mare. And you'd be wrong with every single one. But anyway, Helen, I didn't think we'd be talking about Men's Rea in a Pixar podcast, but let's talk about the legal consequences or consequences of what Mabel does to the Insect Queen, played briefly by Meryl Streep.

50:51Yes, in her second best voice cameo of the month, if I'm honest. What's the first one? Spoiler for another film that hasn't quite come out at the time of our recording. Ah, okay, gotcha. We'll talk about it in some short amount of time.

51:04Chris Hewitt:We very much will. But yes, so Mabel accidentally, just purely instinctively, squishes the insect queen. Now, is that man one? Is that... You've got to stop watching Law & Order. I cannot stop watching Law & Order. I'm missing an episode right now to do this, and I'm furious. So it's not actually a crime to kill most insects. Okay, but that's... What about insects with crowns? Yes, it's regicide. Where did they get the crowns? It's regicide. It's regicide. It's regicide. The law doesn't recognize the animal kingdoms in this way at this time. Set that to one side for a second. If it were an endangered animal, there might be a breach of something, but it wouldn't be under murder or manslaughter.

51:52But okay, we're going to pretend that we're not allowed to kill insects.

51:56Chris Hewitt:We're prosecuting Mabel as an animal as if she were a human being. Okay. All right? So the laws of the human kingdom apply to the animal kingdom. She has murdered or beaver slaughtered this beautiful insect queen who meant nobody any harm. Well, that we know of. She got to the top of the pile somehow. Is that beaver's Rhea? What's going on? is she going to go down men's in this in this case means mind it's latin it doesn't mean belonging to men those fucking latins they think of everything just FYI but stupid men's I think it would be probably manslaughter as it's presented to us it might be that she was she should have been more careful according to the animal code they might have a law about being particularly careful around the insects who are after all quite small in which case it might be sort of second degree murder but I don't I don't think that's what we're showing.

52:55I think what we're showing is genuine accident.

52:58Chris Hewitt:Rather than recklessness. I'm saying man one, she's going to get a deal, 10 to 15, time served. Okay, again, that's not... Also, the squishing is one thing, but then the wiping of the goo on the rock behind her several times, leaving the remains of the insect queen smeared on the wall. I don't think that's a separate offense. That's fine. I have two supplementary questions. First question is, is this Meryl Streep's best death scene? Get thinking about that. Number two is, is this, as I said to Daniel and Nicole in the interview, I've been racking my brains. I cannot think of a moment in Pixar movies where the lead character of the film has murdered another character.

53:46Chris Hewitt:Again, not necessarily murder. Murder, murder, murder with you. Well, I'm just saying, you can put it in the hands of your lister but it won't stand up in court. Surely some of the Incredibles have killed nameless goons at some point in the course of that. I don't remember major characters. He's not like Bob Parr's not ripping off Syndrome's head for example, is he? He would have been justified. I mean, wow. I mean, I guess because even something like A Bug's Life, right? Let's go back to another Hopper, right? Hopper and Nat isn't killed by Flick and his team. He's killed by birds. And those aren't like major characters.

54:24I see what you're saying.

54:25Chris Hewitt:So there have been deaths. Obviously, there have been deaths in Pixar movies. They're not immune to that. We talked about Up. Charles Muntz dies in that movie. But is he like, Carl doesn't shoot him at point-blank range. He doesn't land his house on him. You know what I mean? There's a bunch of people. I mean, maybe Coco. Coco? Oh, they're all dead. Well, they're all dead, but there's been a murder between two major characters. That's true. Ernesto Dilla Cruz, did he directly result in the death? He fell on murder. He's the baddie of the film. He is the baddie. This is a hero of the film. Imagine if Woody had suffocated Sid in the first end of the film.

55:11Chris Hewitt:Blowing him up with his own rockets. Oh, jeez. Oh, wow. I think maybe you could argue if depending on the sentience of some of the plant life forms in Lightyear, he might well have killed some sentient beings okay that's all I got I think this is a first this is genuinely a Pixar first I'm excited about this this is plowing new ground I like that is this Meryl Streep's best death scene? I mean death becomes her does it count if she doesn't quite 100 % die due to supernatural woo woo? that's because there's some good death going on there yeah even at the end she's still alive. I haven't actually seen it, but Mamma Mia, Here We Go Again is basically all about...

55:54But she has died. She dies. Spoilers for the Mamma Mia duology. She dies off screen and her ghost comes back. The spirit in the real story comes back. Does she get squished? How does she die? Have they explained how she died? I mean, that's one of the tragedies of Mamma Mia. She's so full of life in that first film. And then by the sequel, I think it's what, five years later and it's like, she straight up died. not long after that first film. Still in a dungarees, I presume. Has she died in a lot of movies? I don't want to spoil too many Meryl Streep movies, but has she died? I'm struggling to think of Meryl Streep death scenes, I'll be honest.

56:34John, you watched It's Complicated recently. Was part of the reason It's Complicated because Meryl Streep's dead? She's not dead in It's Complicated. It's not that complicated. It's a different kind of squishing, let's say.

56:46Chris Hewitt:Oh my God. It's sexy squishing. Oh no. Oh no. What about the Iron Lady? Is she still alive at the end of that? No. No, she's still alive at the end of that movie. She's still alive, but very old. Yeah. I saw Into the Woods, the stage musical, last week, and I'm trying to think, does the witch get killed? She was the witch in the film adaptation. Helen, I feel like you'll also know about Into the Woods. Does she get squished by the giant? If she does, it's the giant squishing everyone. So this could be another squishing. Yeah, I think she melts in the pot of goo. In the film. Into the woods, I think so, yeah.

57:19she does have a death scene in Florence Foster Jenkins oh I remember that Florence Foster Jenkins so that's something

57:26Chris Hewitt:does she get squished in that let's say yes oh she was the president in Don't Look Up and everybody gets squished in that that's true she does get squished she goes to a different planet Kramer versus Squisher is that one she hasn't died in a lot there's a couple movies that I'm not going to mention because I know she dies and I don't want to spoil them for people any more than we already have anyway so I think this is Meryl Streep's best death scene as well well done hoppers round of applause again no other scenes where then her remains are smeared against the wall and thank goodness for that alright so that's what I loved about this movie what did you guys love about this movie John you give it four what did you give it four yeah I mean everything we've said I think the sort of big punchy sort of swings I really enjoyed specific moments specific moments of insanity that you thought oh yes that's good or a great gag that you loved?

58:20Diane for me. Diane. Diane, yes. We should talk about Diane. I think, yeah. Was this the moment where you were saying, Chris, that is the last thing you expected to happen? Thousand tries. You wouldn't get that right. That was quite a swing. And also, I loved the performance. Was it Vanessa Bayer? Vanessa Bayer? Yeah. From Saturday Night Live did such a good job being just a sort of cheery, quite a vicious sounding shark being dropped on Jerry. Yeah, I thought that was fantastic. That moment, yeah. I just think like general pond rules, the whole setup of this animal world, I really appreciated just how nuts it was.

59:07Yeah.

59:08Chris Hewitt:Yeah, the moment when Diane appears, because I was racking my brains going, okay, it's an apex predator. Is it a snake? but we've already got snakes. Is it wolves or something? They said predator singular. We've already seen the bear. The bear isn't that scary. Is it a lion? What on earth could it be? And it's a great white shark that is lifted out of the sea by birds and then gets involved in a car chase. And you're going, what the fuck am I watching? This is amazing. I watched this, by the way, I paid to see this at a preview just before the spoiler special interview you happened it opened on saturday and sunday the weekend before and i was the the only person on my own in a cinema packed cinema filled with families who were all looking at me very suspiciously all the way through and i was but i was going ha ha ha ha i'm okay i get this i mean you no harm uh and honestly i was just gavoying at that moment and it's just honestly going to those screenings is so delightful because kids just don't give a shit and they just start talking back to the screen and they ask they ask the best questions it's like what is that?

1:00:26Chris Hewitt:What's happening? Why is that thing coming out of the water? It's like yeah yeah kid I'm with you on this very good question what the fuck is going on? But yeah it's pretty fun It's interesting isn't it because the efficiency with which that operation plays out you suspect Diane has been utilised in that way before. She was waiting for that call. It's just another day in the office for Diane. Oh my God. Which I love for her. I just, you know, because she very much did bring the energy of a middle manager to her assassination attempt. Yes. You know, it's like this is just something I've been asked to do.

1:01:04I'm going to do it to the best of my ability and then get back in time for lunch.

1:01:08Chris Hewitt:Very polite shark. And the fact that it's like obviously insane for us but then I think the thing that heightens it is the expressions on Jerry's face where the insanity for him is just next level. Because there was a Pixar press event a couple of months ago with Pete Docter in attendance just talking about the studio and the history and what they've got coming up. And they showed some clips of Hoppers. I think the funniest thing they showed us there was the scene where they all interrogate Jerry in the car and they're using the phone to talk to him. and Jerry's just look on his face of being sort of spoken to by these beavers and Tom Lizard, we need to talk about Tom Lizard at some point, was hilarious.

1:01:51I kind of wish I hadn't seen that before seeing the film. Chop logs, chop logs. He is just having the worst and most insane day of his life. That is the beginning of his day and it only gets worse from there.

1:02:04Chris Hewitt:I don't think he recovers from that. I think there is a moment you can see his thin grasp of sanity just snap. And Jerry's gone at the moment. But that development with Jerry is one of the things I really, really loved. Because again, I think he set out in the beginning of the movie as a fairly standard, generic, baddie politician. And the movie gives him a little bit more depth and you get to see his point of view and you get to warm to him as well. And Jon Hamm's very, very funny in that role. and he becomes kind of like almost the second, third lead of the film. He's not the bad guy at all.

1:02:42I mean, he's nice to his old mum, which I thought was cute. If unlikely, I feel like single politicians are in short supply, actually. But yeah, I thought it was just a really good arc and the way that he is, you know, he has used to be in his credit and to his credit and in his defense, he has used non-violent means to get the animals out of the way for his big project that shows he can get stuff done and blah, blah, blah. But I do also think, like, he is also doing something that's objectively stupid and unhelpful and that isn't, you know, good for the town ultimately and certainly isn't good for the animals.

1:03:22And I think there's a very lovely moment when, you know, the very end of the film is sort of the cleanup the next morning, Mabel's back down there, and so is Jerry, and they're trying to carry something heavy out of the glade together. And she says, can you just move a little bit to the left? I thought that was maybe a double meaning, if I'm honest. And I think, you know what I mean? I think he's one of those guys who's performing effective politics without actually thinking about what he's trying to do a little bit. I know some people have sort of criticized this film because essentially it is like an eco-warrior film in a big way.

1:03:58and that comparison with Avatar, where Avatar really follows through on those themes, that maybe Hopper's kind of pulls its punches or people have said, oh, it's very centrist. To me, I don't know, you can apply those real world sort of political values. To me, I think it's interesting that across Disney and Pixar, we are seeing a greater influx of almost like Ghibli logic, where I think a lot of the outcome in Studio Ghibli films is not one side surviving over the other. It is we should just be in balance. And human society should exist, but it needs to coexist alongside nature and not one overtaking the other.

1:04:44Something like Princess Monodoke, that is absolutely where that film ends up. But that's quite radical by American standards. The level of importance given to the natural world in Ghibli is much, much higher than in American corporate thinking. Yes. And I think in a lot of US films, again, it is more of a binary of good over evil and of the humans triumphing overall because we associate with human characters. whereas in this one I think where we end up is we need to do our bit to like we need to have our human society and we need to try and you know but we need to do it in hand in paw with the beavers and respect the natural world whilst also doing what human society needs to do.

1:05:36Chris Hewitt:Yeah I don't think it goes massively out of its way you know I don't think it's making any dramatic statements I don't think it pulled its punches necessarily either it's interesting because I think I drew parallels between Mabel and Greta Thunberg in a way she's this force of nature she's young, she's radical, she's campaigning she's trying to make a difference she's trying to change the world and I thought that was again a bold move something to be applauded in a way yeah and I think it shows the sort of the frustrations of being an activist you know those early scenes where she's trying to get petition signatures like it i think it is probably banging your head against the wall that life i think uh you know i think it's it's a it's a lonely life to try and persuade people to your cause um and i i really love the sort of like doggedness of her character like you know the absolute um tenacity she had in the face of really insurmountable odds.

1:06:41And I think the message behind it, this idea that we should be living in harmonious equilibrium with the natural world. That's not radical, is it? That feels like something that Disney have been saying for a long time. How would that get anyone hit up?

1:07:03Chris Hewitt:I don't really understand why people would be angry about that. I think it's because people feel more urgent than that, I guess, at the moment and feel like it's, we're so far from that, I guess. Yeah, possibly. What's interesting about the film, and I didn't ask this of Daniel and Nicole, but it has almost like a strange anti-technology message running through it. It's very much a cautionary tale. It's very much like, be aware of the dangers of the technology that you're rushing in blindly to use because look what can happen. Insects can take over and starts swapping back and forth between insect and human and it can lead to a massive forest fire and danger the human community.

1:07:45Chris Hewitt:And that's an interesting message, I think, to have. It's not the main message of the film, but it's in there, I think, absolutely. Yeah, but I think that's kind of everywhere right now because we do have a technology which is being heavily marketed slash pushed on pretty much everyone on the planet right now, which we're told is inevitable and, you know, coming whether we will or nay. And, you know, it's causing concern. And even its proponents think that it has the potential to end the humanity. Like, even its fans are saying there is a non-negligible chance that if it works as it designed, it will bring about the end of our entire existence but we're still supposed to cheer it on.

1:08:40And I think it's completely, again, non-radical.

1:08:44Chris Hewitt:What is this technology? What is this strange? I haven't heard about this. Again, I think it's non-radical to say let's make sure that we have the proper safeguards in place. I think that's a completely sensible position. Can't spell non-radical without AI. Just going to throw it out there. maybe we should try though I did like that the technology was being used I mean the university team who built the Hoppers technology were you know using it for very noble means and it's fun they had this sort of Star Trek Prime Directive idea this idea that you shouldn't you know like disrupt the natural order of things and Mabel goes in and immediately disrupts much like the crew of the Enterprise really Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly.

1:09:30She's the James T. Kirk of the beaver world.

1:09:34Chris Hewitt:But I like that. I like that there's consequences to Mabel's rashness. We see that right from the opening scene where she's four years old and she's like, I'll get you out of here, turtle. I'll get you out of here, snake. I'll get you out. She rams them all into her backpack, which of course doesn't end well. And that's something that runs all the way through the film as well. She doesn't think before she acts. I think there's a lot of moments that, as you say, the film sets up stakes and consequences and among all of the... And snakes and consequences. Indeed. Among all of the craziness and the wacky humour, the moment when you realise the humans have blown up the dam, which comes relatively early on, probably around the midway point of the film, and as you say, the forest fire, those are big things.

1:10:19Those are big, you know, scary consequences as part of this story. and so I think it is again it's a very Pixar thing I think to not pull its punches narratively in that way and I just liked that yeah among all of the madness and the like crazy laughs and the Tom Lizard of it all there were moments that I like gasped watching this because there were things that happened oh my god that feels like a big moment and the forest fire I completely agree with you that felt like this is made by people who just saw friends, family, and maybe even themselves lose stuff in the California fires at the beginning of 2025.

1:11:01And, you know, I'm sure that was already in the film. I'm sure that was already baked in because there have, you know, wildfires in California are not exactly a new phenomenon. But, you know, I think it comes to us with extra resonance and extra power because we saw those horrific images from LA last January and it really, you know, really did shake people up.

1:11:20Chris Hewitt:Absolutely. All right, we're going to wrap this bad boy up in a few seconds. But there are some characters and some developments we haven't talked about. I mentioned it briefly, the idea that the animals, specifically the insects, reverse hop, which is a development I didn't see coming. I didn't see Dave Franco as a megalomaniacal, vengeful insect decide to occupy a Jerry facsimile, which was terrifying. Robo Jerry's face like sliding around on his robo skull was absolutely incredible. And I applaud Pixar for freaking out the kids. Oh, yeah. There were some gasps of discomfort. Absolutely. In the screening I went to.

1:12:12Also, do you see the post-credits scene? yes when they're all playing around with the jerry face they're all taking turns to wear the jerry face

1:12:18Chris Hewitt:was incredible and then a bird just takes the jerry face and goes off with it which was nice but that development and Dave Franco I thought was hilarious in this as well that development was unexpected shall we say 100 % it's terrifying it's the only thing that I think is going to upset my small niece and nephew who will otherwise adore this film a lot will they be pro squish or anti squish they'll probably be pro squish just because you know they embrace the chaos um but uh but they'll probably be anti terrifying robots i think yeah so yeah i always think my niece is four and i think she would love most of this except for the forest fire bit and then yes the the jerry's face melting sort of thing is is quite upsetting it gets pretty dark towards the end of this film it's like yes oh that's what it was yeah and then within all of that as well there's that sequence where they confront Robo Jerry and he like spider runs General Grievous style on the floor and in that tree which is hilarious but also really freaky if as a kid again you've never seen if you're not up to into your like J-horror or the deleted scene from The Exorcist as most four-year-olds tend not to be that's a scary thing yep and that's the first thing that clues him in that it's not Jerry you don't tend to see a lot of mayors doing that necessarily apparently um although ken livingstone could fun fact fun fact about ken livingstone uh yeah dave franco very very good uh you said you wanted to talk about tom lizard and then you haven't really tom lizard uh has become like the the official unofficial mascot of this film and all power to him that design is incredible i i smile and i chuckle every time i see tom lizard I really like that scene that put the clip out as part of this promotional run but when all the animals are trying to describe the noise being made by the fake tree and I guess sort of Arrested Development style they're all doing their own versions of the noise and Tom Lizard's like version but his arms are sticking out in crazy ways and each time he does it he's like throwing his arms in different directions he just cracks me up and as I am of course being hoppered by Sam Summers he pointed out But he thinks Tom Lizard was like a very incidental character early on.

1:14:43And they were just like, if there's a chance to put more Tom Lizard in the film, we should just make him part of the core gang. And he's just then there for the rest of the mission. He is in the core four, exactly where he deserves to be. I also want to say the thing with the emojis reminded me of Rocky, frankly, in Project Hail Mary. no spoilers for that film but just the sort of you know like you say chop log chop log beaver beaver beaver chop log chop log so adorable there's something so adorable about that about someone we might not be able to expect to be able to communicate with being able to communicate with us

1:15:22Chris Hewitt:yeah that I just loved great energy in the interview they talked about finding the right voice for that and you know it took him a long time to do so alright It's a great cast. It's a fantastic cast. We've talked about Jon Hamm. What did we make of Piper Curda, who's a bit of an unknown quantity, I think, a bit of a newcomer-ish, even though she's in her 20s, as Mabel? Really good. A very expressive voice. And to have that kind of character who is, it's very rare to have a teenager, an older teenager. She's 19. You don't tend to get many protagonists in animated films that are of that kind of age.

1:16:01Except princesses, maybe. Except princesses when probably around that age maybe technically a bit younger scarily but you don't want to think about it because it feels creepy

1:16:10Chris Hewitt:how old are Anna and Elsa? I don't think it's canonically established probably like I think Anna at least is meant to be late teens but yeah I still think it's quite rare to get normally it would be like a kid protagonist or a grown up and to have a 19 year old feels different and to have a character who has some rough edges to her and who makes mistakes that cause again like we said bad consequences um there's like a real spark and an energy to that character and an edge to that character that i really admired and i like when those edges aren't sanded off like in something like lilo and stitch where lilo is an unruly character who does things that she shouldn't do and as an audience it's up to us to kind of embrace that and similarly here has anger issues specifically anger issues and doesn't always express it in a healthy way and you know one of the sort of bonding things with her grandmother and also with the glade is the fact that this is where she comes to find peace specifically so i like that idea that one of the reasons that she is acting out to the degree that she is and she is so kind of you know going to such extremes is because the place that gives her peace has been taken from her by this whole process so i thought that was neat, beautiful visual storytelling.

1:17:30Chris Hewitt:Absolutely. Okay, last two things. We haven't mentioned Bobby Moynihan as King George. We haven't talked about King George and I want to talk about the ending where these two people who have struck up this really, really lovely friendship but can't communicate, still find a way to communicate and sit on that rock, the rock that means so much to Mabel and it's just this lovely moment of calm on which to end the movie. Although technically the movie ends with the old man and getting his eggs and his bread and his milk, which is nice. Yeah, I thought that was a really just beautifully elegant way of ending the main portion of the film of having King George sitting with Mabel on the rock.

1:18:10That, again, through the course of this, not only has Mabel learned a lot and they have thwarted the development of the road being put in, but that she has sort of replaced emotionally that hole that was left or she has something to help bring her calm and the peace that she found through her grandmother she now finds directly with the animal kingdom I think is a really, really lovely just like totally neat bow on this thing and not in a way that feels overly manufactured. It just felt right. I did think that they should have kept the ability to talk to animals. I think only an insane person would throw away the device that allows you to talk to animals.

1:18:53I'm not saying jump into each other's robot bodies. Obviously, I can see where that's been problematic.

1:18:59Chris Hewitt:Yeah. But they have a device that allows them to understand what animals are saying, and I feel like the two could be very easily separated, and you would make billions. Billions. Dangerous technology, though. Danger. Run, run away. John, do you like King George, or were you fixated on where he got his crown from? I was thinking about that a lot. I was like what is the sort of manufacturing pipeline that creates these crowns I don't know but yeah no Bobby Moynihan very very good King George very very sweet yeah just a lovable little lovable little beaver it's also just worth noting how cute beavers are I don't I don't think it's amazing there hasn't been a beaver I'm a beaver fan like animated beaver movie I read somewhere that the heroes of this film were originally going to be penguins.

1:19:53That's correct. And you were the penguins. March of the penguins too. But yeah, I'm so glad it wasn't. I'm so glad it was beavers because they are just quite funny. And they are a foundation species. They do create whole ecosystems. They're important.

1:20:11Chris Hewitt:What do penguins do? Fuck all. Exactly. This is what I've been saying. They walk around. They have pebbles. They have some lovely waddling going on. They do go surfing. I will give them that. Surf's up. I also appreciate with the beavers, they've spoken in interviews, the filmmakers about really committing to the roundness of the beavers and making sure all the animals feel extremely squishable. Not in a murder way. Squish, yeah. Like those squish, squish, mallow things. Yes. And I did want to squish a lot of the characters here, again, in the non-murder way. So, yeah, success from the filmmakers.

1:20:53In the words of Frank Drebin, nice beaver. I am amazed we got this far into the podcast without someone saying that. And I'm even more amazed that it wasn't Chris.

1:21:03Chris Hewitt:Someone answered you, I'm sorry. Hey, listen, I'm turning over a new leaf. Sure. But fair play to them. Fair play to them because, you know, they've made a movie with a whole lot of beavers. Honestly. I haven't seen this many beavers since. And you can fill in the rest of that joke yourself. yourself. I do genuinely think that the slang meaning may be the reason that it's taken this long for a beaver-themed movie. Yes. Well, although I've enjoyed seeing the synergy. Have you seen the social accounts for the film, Hundreds of Beavers? Has been very pro-hoppers. Yay! Which is nice to see. Yeah, it's interesting.

1:21:38This film is not called Beavers. You know, it's like... Disney Pixar presents. Do you think there was like a meeting in Disney HQ where like we will not release the film Beavers like you have to come up with a new title they always avoid titles related to women don't they oh that's right I said it

1:21:59Chris Hewitt:it's not the Ice Queen is it anymore no it's Frozen no it's Frozen yeah well listen this is a studio that started off with two characters called Woody and Buzz there you go so I don't know I think it's been they've always respected the Beavers they've always respected the Beavers yeah Bo Peep is a very happy gal if you if you know what I mean. What the fuck? Woody's been tending her flock for some time. It's so wrong. It's deeply wrong. Now I see this is why we didn't bring up the beaver thing until we ended up the podcast. But there you go. Hey, fun fact. Fun beaver fact. Beavers typically live for 7 to 12 years in the wild, although they are capable of living up to 25 to 30 years.

1:22:44Chris Hewitt:So pretty soon, Mabel's going to be on her own in that rock. Wow. You're a monster. Look, pond rules. Pond rules. Can you perform CPR on a beaver? Probably. I can ask my vet sister-in-law if you want. Yeah? Yeah. Text her right now. All right. And see what happens. Just see what happens if you put your lips against a beaver and you... Oh boy. What? I just want to see what happens. Like if George flatlines, can Mabel bring him back to life? is this what's going to happen in Hoppers 2? Can they preserve George's consciousness and you know and maybe hopper him so that Mabel gets to grow old with King George?

1:23:28Chris Hewitt:It's all I want to know. Listen, while we're buying time for Helen's is it your cousin? Sister-in-law. Sister-in-law. It's like a cousin. To get back to us on that topic very, very quickly talk about the box office this movie we're talking here just after opening weekend it's opened at number one in the US box office with around $40 million or so, which is fine. Actually pretty good for an original movie. But do you think that's a good thing? Do you think this movie can be embraced in the long run and leg it out? I think it will. We see that with a lot of family films at the moment anyway. I think generally family audiences are slightly underserved and you see then when these films come out, they do stick around in the charts for a long time because parents want to take their kids to something fun.

1:24:16And Pixar, I think, as much as they have had an up and down time commercially over the last few years, I'd say more so than really any other element of the Disney brand, I think parents still associate Pixar with quality. I think there's a lot of good word of mouth around this one. And it'll be interesting to see because even Elemental started very slow and made its way to 500 million, which is really not to be sniffed at. But Elio did not.

1:24:48Chris Hewitt:Elio was a big underperformer. Elio felt like the messaging was never really consistent. And to be fair, it seems like the film changed a lot over the course of its production. Whereas I think Hopper's, not only has it been really well received, and that narrative, that message around the return to form of Pixar, I think is a strong one. It's got a real sense of identity, this film. I think that's why it's so successful. As I said, the look of it, the feel of it, the sense of humor, it all goes hand in hand. And so I think that confidence has actually translated into the marketing. And they are leaning into the fun, crazy beaver film with the lizard going, and that, honestly, good marketing technique.

1:25:37That, I think, is going to do it for them. Also, you can play as Tom Lizard in Fortnite. I'm not a Fortnite person, but if you're a Fortnite person, I think this is how Fortnite works. It's basically the Oasis from Ready Player One, and you can run around as Tom Lizard shooting Chapel Roan and Sabrina Carpenter. Why would you want to do that?

1:26:02Chris Hewitt:Because you can. Okay. Could you blow up the house from up with Russell still inside? Let's find out. No, you're not sure. www.fortnite.com forward slash Tom Lizard. I have news from the world of vets. Oh, yep. Fantastic. You should be able to perform CPR on beavers. They have the same anatomy that should work for CPR. I bet it's not very well documented, though. So that's the word from a vet. On that note, that is it for our Hoppers spoiler special. I hope you guys enjoyed it. Keep in appeal for more spoiler specials coming your way soon, including the likes of Project Hail Mary with Lord and Miller.

1:26:40Chris Hewitt:And we have other things that I've done spoiler specials for, but I've already forgotten. But it's good stuff. So thank you, as ever, for subscribing. And your continued support really does keep the lights on here. So thank you so much for that. And do spread the word. Tell your friends that there are 500 and counting spoiler specials behind the paywall. And they are all equally good. Most of them are equally good. Anyway, all that remains now is to say goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning. goodbye Ben Travis goodbye goodbye John Nugent goodbye goodbye Helen O 'Hara toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo and it's goodbye from me alright should we go it's beaver time oh no oh no oh no oh again so many poorly chosen words in this entire podcast thanks so much for listening see you next time bye bye