Ironheart: The Team Empire Take

27:03Chris Hewitt:Unless it went full Breaking Bad and she became even worse and then you did the Walter White thing, which I think is then quite interesting. If you look at the first season of Breaking Bad, you're talking about his impact on the family. You know, he does everything for his family, but the family don't have any negative effects. There's no negative effects on Skylar or Walter Jr. in the first season of Breaking Bad. In fact, not really for a couple of seasons. It's only after that that it begins to seep in to them. So if they're thinking about, oh, this is our Breaking Bad, then that's interesting.

27:32Chris Hewitt:I'm interested. I'm definitely on board with that. That could be good. Like I say, I just don't think they've quite got the grammar of that. Right. Ben has just... I found an article. I won't say where it's from. It's maybe an alternative. It's from SFX. It's from SFX. It's from SFX. Iron Heart will go to uncomfortable places for viewers, almost in the vein of Walter White or Tony Soprano, says Marvel exec producer Sev Ohanian. Wow. So they do have that in mind as like a path for Riri to make the choices that you're screaming at the TV. Don't make that choice. That's a bad choice. I do think, I mean, you know, she does have contacts in Wakanda.

28:11They literally owe her one. I don't 100 % understand where at no point she you know

28:17Chris Hewitt:she does talk there's that scene where Natalie says call Shuri and she imagines a conversation with Shuri and it wouldn't go well yeah but I think also there's a little bit of point of pride that she doesn't want to call the Wakandans why do Wakanda OVV1 well because because they asked for her help last time right they saved her from Namor when they didn't have to well true but then she helped them out the murder of the queen I mean granted she fought with them against Namor but it feels like their accounts have been settled I don't think there's anyone anyone it just feels like if she is as you know brilliant they acknowledge her brilliance right Shuri knows how good she is so why is she not I don't know I mean they do have that really the scene where she plays it out in terms of what would happen if she called Shuri I thought that was a very accurate representation of how that would go down.

29:13Chris Hewitt:Yes, something like that. Does she have Shuri's number as well? Or would she just be ringing the Wakandan palace? Embassy. Yeah, and trying to get through. I promise you I know Shuri. Yes, no, we fought together in that war that I kind of caused. Anyway, how are you? It wasn't her fault that they came for her. And Shuri hasn't always made the best choices either, you know. She wrestles with a lot of things in Wakanda forever. She could have made that call, I think. I think it was an interesting justification from Riri on why she didn't. But we as the audience knows that actually probably would help if you did make that call.

29:46You might actually get some. If she just went, look, I'd call,

29:48Chris Hewitt:but Letitia Wright is unavailable. And very expensive. I just, you know, it's just for me, it was one of those things where it's like, you know, you have introduced these characters before. We know some of them know some people. Like, would they not talk to each other? It's, you know, why is nobody helping? Why is nobody helping Sam out with a mortgage on his boat kind of a question, right? That's not a question. It's that kind of thing. Like, where's Pepper? She could literally just do it out of chump change at the bottom of the drawer. Why is she not doing this? It kind of feels similar for Shuri.

30:21Now, I appreciate that they did have that MIT set up and the sort of the Tony Lincoln in episode one, that she kind of burned some bridges there. But even so, if she is as good as everybody says she is, she has options. Thank you. and those options are not just crime thank you they did not unpack that at all there are more options than just being broke or turned to life a crime to make something I can't wait there are what are those somebody tell me what those options are

30:56Chris Hewitt:I'm feeling my activities what are those options please help me my family are dying she cuts a single and it becomes Christmas number one OnlyFans Why not? She goes to Vegas and puts everything on black or red. Red is also available. Which one? For which one? She's got to be a Wesley Snipes fan. She's definitely always bet on red. Always bet on red, as Wesley famously said. No, but like, I mean, there's got to be something in her, you know, like hologram tech that she could patent or something. Like, is none of this patentable? She creates an AI in the image of her best friend. I'm still a little bit fuzzy on the details of how that happened.

31:35Chris Hewitt:And then there's moments where Natalie, Lyric Ross is brilliant in this, by the way. But there's moments where Natalie goes, oh, I have memories of those moments. But, you know, unless she's remembering Riri's memories of those moments, how could she remember those moments? But anyway. I like that question, though. That felt like a genuine question in the show of like, what is Natalie? Because she seems to have these memories. She's sprung forth from Riri's own scan of her own brain. I like the fact that Riri didn't even intend to create a Natalie. She just intended to create something from herself.

32:11And the thing that she kind of needed was something that she didn't even consciously know she would create.

32:16Chris Hewitt:I thought that the show was going down a road of asking what a soul is. And because I had read that Mephisto might be involved. and obviously Parker is quite clear has made a deal with a devil not the devil but a devil at some point so I thought maybe it's going to be you know you won't miss it just shake my hand wish for what you want and the thing that you give me in exchange you won't miss it and what is Natalie is the science tech manifestation in the MCU of a soul like literally she is Riri's soul didn't we almost have that with vision though? A little bit I guess but not to the same extent I would say maybe but yeah.

33:03There were some lovely scenes in this that really gestured towards that like Natalie's response to Riri's brother being freaked out by her and she was upset by that revelation, she was upset by that reaction to her. That lovely scene towards the end where the projection of Natalie is in the suit watching Riri's memory of herself with the real Natalie and watching and trying to mimic but also being like that's me but that's not me I'm a separate me but that's I also come from this and I come from this memory and it was just I liked that this series overall I know we're getting into the sort of nitty gritty as we should do but one of the things I liked most about this show is that so many of these Disney Plus series and a lot of the Star Wars ones as well the episodes are like sometimes 28 minutes and they feel a bit hacked to bits.

34:00These were like real proper 50-minute episodes. Lots of time spent with the characters. Lots of bits of breathing room to give you that scene of the AI Natalie in the suit watching a memory that is a lovely scene, but you could imagine in another show they might have cut for time or for pacing or whatever. And actually having this play out feeling more like a TV show than what they used to say with all these MCU's series of, hey, it's more of a six-hour movie. It's not a six-hour movie. It's not quite a six-episode TV show either. It's like a weird hodgepodge that doesn't quite feel right. This at least did feel like a TV show and it had a bit more of the rhythms of TV and gave you time to have those little emotional moments that aren't necessarily doing a plot thing, but are absolutely giving you a thematic thing or even just, yeah, like an emotional reprieve from everything else going on.

35:04I liked both versions of sort of Natalie. I thought that was one of the stronger elements in the show. I just, yeah, it was more, some of the tone just didn't quite work for me. I did, I'll tell you who I really, really liked and that's Reg and Leah as Zelma. Oh, great. She was fantastic. She has really big, to me, Jenna Ortega energy. Maybe it was the glasses. The big round eyes. The big round eyes. Like, I hope she's as successful as Jenna Ortega because she's like, I thought she was just so charismatic and so good.

35:35Chris Hewitt:Do you think they went to Jenna Ortega initially? No, I don't think so. In 2022, Jenna Ortega was maybe not as expensive as 2025 Jenna Ortega. I fully agree with that. It reminds me of sort of talking about other side characters in MCU's spoiler specials we've done in the past and about whether or not they pop. Zama absolutely popped in the way that some of the other characters and like, who's the young hero in Doctor Strange Multiverse of Madness? Oh, America Chavez. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I don't think Riri popped in Wakanda Forever in the way that she should have. And I think it was a bit of a missed opportunity, a bit of a dropped ball, quite frankly.

36:15Chris Hewitt:And one of the things I was really surprised about was how quickly I because again I'm a soul-selling sociopath clearly connected with her emotionally in this I thought that Dominic Thorne was terrific in this in this show but uh the introduction of of Natalie Natalie is an MCU best friend on the level of Luis from the Ant-Man movies yeah and Ned and Ned yeah and she's absolutely there in the pantheon for me if you because I was excited about Lyrg Voss' inclusion in this because I'm a massive, massive fan of This Is Us and she is phenomenal in that show. So it was no surprise to me that she was awesome in this too.

36:57Can we talk about The Hood? Yeah.

36:59Chris Hewitt:Where they live? Yeah, it's so nice. That actually, well, I mean, okay, if you're going to take it there. I think Chinneka Hodge and Ryan Coogler and just you could feel the amount of black voices that they were involved in the show. And that you can tell by the way the characters talk to each other. You can tell by the community they live in. You can tell by the soundtrack choices. All of that is so well considered. And I did really like that part of that element. I liked it with Xavier when they're putting the, they're trying to build the suit with magic in episode five. And he comes into the garage and he just, or sorry, garage, and he just says, hey, black people.

37:41I was just like

37:42Chris Hewitt:okay, cool I like that music in that scene Santa Gold what happened to Santa Gold? oh yeah great isn't Santa Gold Brazilian? I believe I don't know I believe they're Brazilian I think my favourite little drop was flowetry flowetic is it great? great soundtrack I do have quite we'll get into talking about the hood in a second both where they live and of course Parker Robbins yeah because I have questions about how old Riri is meant to be because this is me being a real pedant but anyway in the flashback scene that lovely flashback scene where we see her dancing as a young girl with her dad Gary her stepdad Gary in the garage and no fuck it it's garage alright and they're dancing to Leon Bridges Brown Brown Skin Girl which is a wonderful song he's terrific Leon Bridges if you don't know him check his music out he's absolutely phenomenal that song came out in 2015 now we're told that Riri is 8 years old in that flashback oh hang on and she's meant to be I think 24 now don't they say 24 well if this is this is like the latest this show could be taking place in because I think we've caught up slightly in the MCU I don't think it's like a huge time jump anymore I think it's about 2025-2026 at a push 2027 in the MCU which means that maybe 12 years will have elapsed from that point on which means at a stretch Riri is meant to be 20 Dominic Thorne is 28 and I don't think you know she's not quite in the oh hey it's Stockard Channing in Greece playing in teenager territory Was she 25 when she filmed this thing?

39:28Chris Hewitt:She would have been when they started she was 25 when they finished she was 53 I think that's how it works but you know what I mean like I don't quite understand we keep being told that Riri is like this genius, you know, young teenage inventor, but she doesn't feel like she's that young. I thought there was a line in the MIT scenes where they say something about her being 24. Do they? I thought I was getting that from somewhere. I don't remember that. No, maybe not. I haven't watched it again. The MIT scenes at the beginning, I thought were, along with Alden Ehrenreich, we'll get to him, the biggest example of, oh, this has had surgery.

40:03Chris Hewitt:Jim Rash has not come back to do this, to stumble around with a plaster cast on for mumbling something for half a scene. It was just about, how do we get her back to Chicago? And this is the cheapest way to do it. So then magically she's back in Chicago. Well, she flies back from Boston. No, but you know me, but how do you get her out of MIT? Yeah. Anyway, Amon, you wanted to talk about the hood. You still haven't given me a great alternative for how she's going to make loads of money with her inventions. I said she could sell that AI tech, right? She's accidentally invented that. There's amazing AI.

40:38Chris Hewitt:She could sell that. If she is as smart as she and the MCU want us to think she is, there are other avenues to go now. Yeah, she could build a better mousetrap. Come on. I mean, there's got to be something. I mean, she could fix people's computers and probably make a fair bit of cash. Also, she was making a bunch of cash. She needed to take a million. She was making money in MAT just doing people's homework for them. She was. And that's just in her spare time. But as she says, as she points out, I mean, part of the show is about, you know, the lack of opportunity that is afforded to her because of where she is and because of the color of her skin as well and her background and all this sort of stuff.

41:13Chris Hewitt:And she needs, Tony Stark was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. No, I get that. And all sorts of money. And she needs the bankroll that Tony Stark could just go, boom, this is just walking around money. Was it two billion? Yeah, no worries. And she doesn't have access to that money. Christmas number one, OnlyFans are selling her AI. Oramon? Invent something. Invent something. She has invented loads of things, but people aren't interested. She can't get her foot in the door. How does that make sense if she's as good as we're told she is? If she's as good as even MIT are saying she is? Sometimes opportunity does not come your way because of the circumstances of your birth.

41:48Chris Hewitt:No, I get that. And that would make more sense for someone who hadn't already been identified very clearly as a huge talent. Listen, I would be all over. To the point where... Well, that sounds wrong. Her talent was literally being identified not just by people on the face of the earth, but literally by people under the sea. She had made enough of a splash that a freaking alien mutant kingdom was aware of her. How is no recruiter in Silicon Valley aware of her? You know why, Helen? Because she had her chance and she blew it! That's why. So, you know, she's kind of like yesterday's news. I can see why.

42:29Chris Hewitt:Listen, personally, if she came to Dragonstown and I was one of the dragons and she said, listen, I am Riri Williams and I'd like to, you know, give you 10 % of equity in my company in exchange for £250 ,000 of investment, I wouldn't even listen to her pitch. I would be like, I am all the way in. But people at this point in the world of the MCU are not on board. Just like Amon with his two-star review. But anyway, you wanted to say other things. The hood. Just ignore all that. It's only been 25 minutes. It's been 84 years. To me, this is one of many examples regarding the internal logic of this show being extremely backwards.

43:14Chris Hewitt:Okay. His whole thing, his whole scheme is I'm going to give my victims contracts with the names of my crew and the bank accounts of my crew on these contracts, easily traceable things to the victims to sign. Do you want their IDs as well? Do you want their social security numbers? And there's so many other little things that bug me. A lot of them to do with the crew and just this really bad internal logic. The first heist they pull, some of the crew, they're beating up some security guys. After they do all that, in plain view of wounded but very conscious security guys, they're like, let's meet up at the hideout afterwards.

43:57And they name the hideout. Do they? Yes. And none of them are wearing masks. It's just like, what are we doing here? The internal logic of the show is really, really backwards.

44:07Chris Hewitt:Well, first of all, the internal logic of the show is by getting them to sign on the line that is dotted. Therefore, he is basically saying, you can't come after me now because now this is all legal. It doesn't matter how I have done this. It does matter how it does. I know it matters, but what are they going to do? What are you going to do? They're going to sue. Sue? Yes. You're going to sue the hood? Yes. This is the whitest you've ever saw on a podcast. My favorite thing about the hood. You can't come out the hood. You come out the hood, you best not miss. Challenge accepted, by the way. Believe me, I can sound a long whiter.

44:51Oh, gosh.

44:52Chris Hewitt:My favorite thing about the hood. He's wearing khakis right now. Am I? They've magically appeared on my legs. This is amazing. Who did you make a deal with to get those trousers? H &M. How can I thank them?

45:08Chuck Jones. Would stand right in front of somebody, hold a gun out, fire the gun, and then for no reason use magic to make the bullet go... before it hit that person. Style, man. Yeah, it was very... I did need more of a... Brackets, Timurbeck, Mambatov. Yes. I did need more of the hood's bendy bullets. Also, there are times when the hood looks good on Anthony Ramos and then there are times when it looks very un-missive. It looked goofy. It looked silly. It often did look silly. I was watching it going, my God, I'd actually love to see him play an angel in something. Do you know what I mean? Like quite a sinister angel potentially, but I think he'd be great in that.

45:48I don't know why. Anyway, I've possibly watched too much Supernatural. I felt, again, his characterization to me was not entirely consistent. And he is a character who is at war with himself or at war with his outerwear, at least. And he, you know, from having like a lot of loyalty to his crew and being very grounded in this group of people, but then also, you know, flipping on a dime. And I thought that was an interesting, you know, approach. But once you lost John and once you lost that insight into his, I guess, inner life or psyche, I felt like he I mean again it's probably on purpose he spirals pretty damn quick after that but it didn't he was less compelling after that much less compelling especially when like in the wake of John's death he's like you know I have plans for you Vivi those plans are dead Vivi instead of taking out Vivi as he very easily could have done at multiple points when she's not wearing her armor he sends his crew after her they lose he sends a souped up of Zekyll after her she lets him he lets her live and then he's like you know I knew that I had to kill you myself and I do it it's so annoying it's ridiculous just don't do that line if you're only gonna just say that and then have them send other people after just to pad time until the finale which is exactly what that was

47:12Chris Hewitt:I did I did like that moment where he goes I have plans for you Riri and then she just stares at him and he stares at her and then she stares at him and then he stares at her and it's like okay what are those fucking plans the tension They don't sound great, I'll be honest with you. Are we going to White Castle? That annoyed me. Well, going to White Castle. There's better places to go. No, just very unmenacing. Well, you're hiding it well, and that's the main thing. Thank you, that's what I was going for. I did want more for Anthony Ramos. I love Anthony Ramos, and I thought he was not particularly well served by this show.

47:51Why does Hollywood keep trying to make him the serious guy and the bad guy in this? In Twisters, he was a bit boring hero guy. He's so charming and likable, and he's a great underdog figure. And I feel like he doesn't really get those roles very often, which is strange because that's such a good mode for him to be in.

48:13Chris Hewitt:I liked him. Someone else from Empire who should well name Jameless. I thought he was terrible. in this I didn't see that but then again I have made a deal with the devil to like this show quite clearly I thought I thought you know the thing you were saying about him spiraling out after John dies and we get more of an insight into his backstory and we get to see how he got the cloak and how he met Mephisto and all that stuff and becoming more and more overtly demonic in the final battle he nearly went full Morbius He nearly went... Serious case of the morbs. And I enjoyed all that stuff and I thought he was very, very good and very...

48:58Chris Hewitt:He had a great presence as well. And sometimes a cloak looked great on him. Who do you think would win in a fight? The Hood's hood or Doctor Strange's? Doctor Strange's cloak. The cloak of levitation by a mile. The cloak of levitation has so much personality. This thing had no personality. looked a bit kind of diseased around the edges. You know, it's not living its best life. Even the currently patched up Cloak of Levitation could take him easily. I mean, the hood, the cloak didn't do much, did it? It didn't, there wasn't a sense of it. Don't disrespect the Cloak of Levitation. No, not the Cloak of Levitation, the hood, the hood's cloak.

49:36Okay. It didn't do a lot, did it? Like, it couldn't give you a little salute in the way that I imagine Doctor Strange's cloak could give you a little... Yes, exactly. I feel like that cloak could basically like wink at you even though it doesn't have eyes it definitely winks yeah the cloak winks yeah alright what are we talking about? no idea one more internal logic thing that annoyed me remember

50:03Chris Hewitt:do your breathing exercises beforehand thank you Woosa Woosa Woosa Woosa Woosa there's the things when Ezekiel his tech has found the heist and he gets arrested. Yes. And they're like, he's going to take the blame for all our crimes. He can just say. There have been people left victims alive who know who he is. Again, he was not wearing a mask. Do they not have security cameras at this place? This is what I'm saying. It's just the internal logic. why doesn't Ezekiel just tell the cops what happened? Because he's still guilty of, I guess, black market hearing. But isn't that better than being guilty of murders of a lot of people?

50:46Yeah, Yeah, you would think, wouldn't you? I just, I think he's worn down by the pressure of his family name is the implication. Again, I think you're right. I think his character does show that joins more than anywhere else, which is a shame because I really enjoyed old Nirenreich in the role. I thought the sort of the sheepish, you know, guy just trying to kind of live down the family history was a really interesting place to start from with that character. The idea that he's almost been suppressing his own innovations and his own ideas and his own desire to invent because he doesn't want to break bad in the same way.

51:21That was really interesting. It's also interesting that, you know, RiRi's influence on him is so completely negative.

51:28Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Again, you know. Within 24 hours, he's experimenting on himself. He's just cutting open big chunks of flesh in his skin going, is this anything? Can I put a USB stick in here? Oh, no, I put it in the wrong way around. Okay, no, that's much better now. oh I just went for USB but everything's upgraded to USB-C it's the worst it's the worst isn't it I think with him I think you're absolutely right I think there are evident joints and the joints do show and I would be amazed if this had been conceived as a six episode limited series I wouldn't be surprised if this had been more of an eight at one point and then they decided to you know many things I think have probably fallen by the wayside what's been left is you know a decent emphasis on characters i thought were pretty compelling but there are little things like selma and this real emphasis of magic only really being introduced from episode four onwards little things like that and the fact that as you said alden erreich's joe mcgillicuddy aka ezekiel stain uh is just wildly different from scene to scene never mind episode to episode and the guy we meet.

52:40One minute he's like, hey, I'm a chill guy who's friends with Riri. And then he's like, I'm with the hood and I'm very serious and evil and I've got drills in my head. It's like, wait, what? I'm going to kill Riri. But also I'm put upon because the hood is now controlling my emotions and I'm literally a man puppet. You know, that was quite tragic. Good physical comedy from Alden there doing the like, I am not in control of my body thing, which I like when we see that as a trope. There's a recent big screen movie, 2.0, that does some good I'm not in control of my own body, fighty stuff. Made me think a bit of upgrade as well.

53:14Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Great, great not in control of my body acting there. I also just enjoy the name McGillicuddy. The best mountain range in the world for my money is down in Kerry in Ireland and it is the McGillicuddy Reeks.

53:28Chris Hewitt:I beg your pardon, of what? Exactly. You can keep your Himalayas, that's a good name, but it's nothing compared to McGillicuddy Reeks as a name for a mountain range. You can keep your Himalayas. You've said some wrong things in this podcast. I have been to the Himalayas and they were completely fantastic. So I will also keep the Himalayas. Thank you. But I was just exaggerating for colorful effects. Yes. Because the McGillicuddy Reeks, literally, you could drop them in the Himalayas and you wouldn't be able to find them again. They are very small. They are very, very small. That's true. Can I say we can all agree, fuck the Alps.

54:04Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah.

54:05Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Yeah, down with the Alps. I mean, although I'd quite like to go there too. I mean, they are... The walking holiday in Switzerland. They're breathtakingly beautiful, aren't they? They're so good, yeah. You know what? Mountains are great. Mountains are great. All around. I think we've just found our next ranking. I think we found our next Mount Rushmore. Mount Rushmore and mountains. I'm putting because, you know... Ironically, Mount Rushmore wouldn't make it. No, it wouldn't. Would the Rockies make it? Would the Rockies make it on Mount Rushmore? All right, we're doing a Mount Rushmore of mountain ranges.

54:35Chris Hewitt:Okay. Himalayas for sure Himalayas is up there I'm going to I'm going to put the mornes on there I love the mornes I'm representing I'm representing the smallest mountains in the world am I being white again? I'm representing by putting the mountains hey come on I resemble that remark

55:02I'm sending all your invites to the cookout at this point This is bad. Come on. Come on, man. Mount Fuji. I know it's just a one-up, but it's just a real good...

55:12Chris Hewitt:It's a one-er. It's a one-er. All right. Amon, what... That's a lone mountain. We're talking actual mountain ranges. Yeah. I don't know about... I don't know. I'm not allowed in Mount Fuji. I'm sorry, I'm not. It's only one. That's what I'm going to go with. Mountain ranges. Ranges, yeah. Alps, Andes. Can I interest you in the Andes? Can I interest you in the Alps? Appalachians, maybe? Appalachians. Very old mountains, the Appalachians. Yeah, I feel like there's spooky stuff there. Oh, there totally is. Yeah, 100%, definitely. Where's Salmendean when you need them? I know. They're probably in the Rockies or the Appalachians, if I'm honest, yeah.

55:48Chris Hewitt:All right, Amon is blanking on mountain ranges. Again, we don't do mountain... We don't do mountain ranges. I don't do mountain ranges. I'll be specific. Okay, all right. I went to the White Mountains once. They were very nice. Wow. No need to bring race into it, Helen. All right. Let's get back to the show. Iron Heart, I believe is the name of it. It is on Disney+. Right now, Amon loves it. Four stars as Empire Magazine's Amon Warman. Joe McGillicuddy, did you see the Ezekiel Stein thing coming? Had it been leaked? Had it been rumored? No, because he was doing something in every scene. I didn't know what he was going to do next.

56:27I didn't love what they did with him in terms of like he's got electric shit in him and now he's got like Sith lightning powers I don't know that was very vague he he was trying not to be Obadiah Stane and ended up a little bit whiplash which I don't think is a decision that's not my fucking tempo

56:51Chris Hewitt:he didn't drum once but yeah Amon did you know he was Zeke going into this I did not know he was Zeke that was a nice surprise but as we've mentioned the character gets pulled in three different directions in the next three episodes which there's not so like yeah his arc is a bit muddled I think Vivi's arc is a bit muddled the hood's arc didn't really work for me there wasn't any you're bringing me around you really are bringing me around I quite enjoyed the gang can I say that as a positive I thought their dynamic was fun I thought the way that there were shades of grey in the gang was interesting.

57:33I like that Slug had the Madrapur background. I enjoy that little sort of reference. That was fun. Also, incredible nails and eye makeup in every single scene. Oh, my God. I mean, crazy cast because Slug was Shea Coulee from RuPaul's Drag Race. We also had Zoe Tarrakis from Talk To Me was Jerry. Yes. They were in it. And Shakira Barrera, who was Roz so Jerry's Jerry's sibling was in was in Glow which is a great great show I was trying to figure out where I knew her from

58:09Chris Hewitt:okay cool I would agree with you on that and I do think that there are there is the odd scene which has a nice directorial stamp to it like I think it's the beginning of episode I think it's episode 3 where they've just pulled off the heist and they're basically having a rain parade with the money and that's how they that's really cool and in terms of the crew I was trying to tee up the action before and one of the best action scenes is when Vivi is actually not in her armor and she's going up against the crew the attack in White Castle yes which is really good because in that moment I thought you know if you're nothing with the suit you can't what's the line if you Iron Man to Spider-Man yeah that's the line if you're nothing without the suit you can't have it is that right something like that something like that who knows but anyway I thought of that while watching that scene.

59:00And it was Clowns Bear scene, the Sonia Dennis character as well. She's really good in that scene. She's quite scary as well. Without it somehow getting super personal because she has that moment at the end where she sees Zeke let Riri go and sort of, you know, hand waves it. And covers it up for him later. Yeah, she does.

59:23Chris Hewitt:Because she's kind of on Riri's side. It was a weird thing that Eric Andre was in this for two seconds. For like one episode. And it was like, wow, he's in this. And then it was like, wow, he's not in this. He gets credited in the second episode because they show his face on his driver's license. Really? And he gets credited. Do you think he gets paid? Do you think he gets like a better episode? He probably got real paid. Well, in the sense that, like, you remember, Michael Biehn got paid more for Alien 3 than he did for Aliens. That's wild. Because they had to use his face. Nice. good agent but yeah I guess I was a bit underwhelmed that there wasn't really a notable Ironheart action scene when she's in the armour I said in my review that a lot of the action in this is just her flying and for a while that's okay but at some point you need something really notable like that scene that I can't wait to rewatch I didn't that's true the armour was not really a weapon for most of the show.

1:00:26And certainly not for anything really big in the finale because also it doesn't really work against... I guess there's this... It stops him being invisible. Yeah, there's the sort of hallucination hologrammy thing at the end. I guess that's the armor. But, you know, there is not a physical thing for her to fight with. That's not really how the hood works.

1:00:48Chris Hewitt:I don't think the show depicted the whole magic versus science thing, which has been a theme that's been bubbling away in the MCU since, what, Thor pretty much? Literally he explains that to Jane over the fire, what you see as magic, we see as science. That I don't think is entirely fully realized to its potential. Like she gets this magical upgrade to her suit, which then costs her Natalie the AI. And she does say she's okay with the cost. And then ultimately, of course, that winds up costing her a soul because of her selfless decision to sell her soul to Mephisto. But you're right. I don't think that we really get the full-on magic versus tech battle that we're promised, really.

1:01:34Chris Hewitt:It's a slightly disappointing final episode, again, for an MCU show. And that might be a budget thing. I mean, because I think, like, I agree with you. The show actually does look very good for the most part. It puts money where it needs to, but it maybe just didn't have the budget for that big sort of tech versus content. They probably had all kinds of ideas and they just couldn't make it work. And they just couldn't make that work, yeah. Because I don't think they even really, though, in the writing sold the idea of like, you need magic because magic will allow you to do this. There's a vague line of like, oh, you fight magic with magic, but there's no sense of like, if you imbue the suit with magic, it is able to do this now.

1:02:10Yeah, no, there was none of that. But then it also felt very convenient of like, here's your magic download. Oh no, it's lost the AI. that kind of just happened and so it didn't feel like there was even a No, I think it was but it wasn't it wasn't sort of fully it wasn't maybe I think you were right it wasn't 100 % apparent and it wasn't 100 % apparent exactly what the magic was then giving you in return for that cost If it was like we really, really need the magic because the magic is going to allow the suit to do this but I've just run a diagnostics check and I think if we do the magic update there is a chance it might wipe the AI or something.

1:02:51There's a chance it might fundamentally change the suit in some way. So that, like, are we sure we want to do this? Ah, but we've got to do it because we need to do this because the suit will now be able to do this with the magic. That's what it was lacking. It was more just like, hey, magic would be nice. Magic download. Oh, no, we lost Natalie. I think the only thing you get is there's the line about we need a near limitless source of power. and my impression was that that's what the magic is like it's you're tapping into a different dimension to power the suit in the first place essentially

1:03:24Chris Hewitt:another dimension another dimension another dimension another dimension so I think that's the only real like concrete thing we get it's not like if we tap into magic you will have plus two you know hologram powers it's more like we will use the magic to be the to be the arc reactor for the suit. Right. That's a good idea. That's a good idea. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. And yeah, that's a great idea. All right. I'm going to wrap this up in just a couple of seconds, but a couple of things I want to pick up on there. Are they tapping into the dark dimension, Dormammu's dimension, or are they tapping into somewhere else?

1:04:03There were some like liney things down the side of her face in the heads-up display that did look a bit Dormammu-y to me. Yes, I wasn't sure. I wasn't clear on that at all like shivery wavy lines I think Zelma there's some hints that she'll be back I guess in future in some way there's she did have a big jar of mind maggots there and in the comics she gets infected with them and has to be she absolutely does deloused as it were by Doctor Strange unpleasant and becomes the librarian of

1:04:35Chris Hewitt:a camertage no of his oh his sanctum sanctorum his sanctum sanctorum yes strange academy they could go that way they could go that way and look I'd like to see her again I thought she was really fun but it's also clear that she maybe doesn't know entirely what she's doing and that might give you problems next time or it might give you a way out of the whole soul selling thing because there might be some things that need to be undone in a way that gets her out of her deal with Mephisto yes and by the way I really liked the fact that this is as much a sequel to Wakanda Forever as it is to Doctor Strange just the whole general Doctor Strange vibe I like the the invocation of of Camartage I liked little things like that and the idea the whole idea was Selma that moment where she drops him in the shop down into the other dimension was a really really cool moment very impactful there's some really good filmmaking here yeah I agree there's like a real sense of visual style and energy to the show which I you know didn't expect going in because some of the worst that we've had of these I'm thinking of your secret invasions have been so chopped to hell actually I would tell my soul to forget that yeah We all collectively sell ourselves for that no longer to be considered canon.

1:05:44I would sell my soul to take back secret invasion slaps, which has followed me ever since that damn text. Who would ever remind you of that, though? That would be...

1:05:53Chris Hewitt:Mon feels that way about that text as I do about Attack of the Clones. He's more liable to bring it up than anyone else. Whereas I'm more liable to be like, I'm the guy who gave Attack of the Clones five stars, but I'm doing it now. You know, maybe that is my punishment. On this planet. It's only been 20 years. Yeah. Yes. I will just say I like that Zellmer's shop sells sweets and magic. That's two things I would like to buy. I think actually one of the nice things about this show coming where it comes in the MCU. So it, you know, it was meant to come out originally in 2023. So it's been a while.

1:06:32Chris Hewitt:It's been a minute. Now it's coming on the back of Agatha all along. So suddenly a magic shop with a magician doing incredible, or a sorcerer rather, doing incredible magic feels like it was intentional I feel like that's a bit of a world these Disney pleasure like WandaVision into Agatha into this feels like it all is of a piece yeah potentially and there's stuff I know about another show that could tell you but I can't say given that there's literally only two shows on the docket what that could be or should we go on some kind of vision quest to figure out what that could be I don't know I wonder man if we might be barking up the wrong tree I just did that one oh did you yeah damn it I wasn't listening we're a couple of marvel zombies over here yeah what what if better keep our eyes of Wakanda open yeah we wouldn't want to join the 1 % club no it's a quiz show it's not part of the interview damn it anyway alright I just want to talk finish off by talking about Mephisto because we talked about him and then we moved on to something else.

1:07:40Chris Hewitt:And there's still, I think, a lot to be said about Mephisto. First of all, I want to go back to what Amon was saying earlier on in terms of introducing a character of this magnitude in the MCU. I'm not so sure that Mephisto is a grade A bad guy. My recollection of him in the comic books was that he's someone who's deployed every now and again to, you know, when a hero is tripping out for some particular reason. And, you know, oh, turns out Mephisto was behind. that hero is doing something that's uncharacteristic. He was manipulated by Mephisto. Mephisto is a cool character, a fun character, the Marvel version, of course, of the devil, but not the devil for obvious reasons.

1:08:20Chris Hewitt:And I don't know that he's like a Thanos level. I think he's more of like a kind of a B-list B-filling. But the casting of Sacha Baron Cohen would indicate that maybe they were thinking of using him more and more down the line. And I do like the characterization in terms of like, he's got a bit of a sense of humor he's got a bit of a of wit and sarcasm and sarkiness about him and also it can be quite charming like I think that's important as well for the character so I enjoyed the Sacha Baron Cohen performance yeah I have some schmooze factor in there for the devil did we all spot the little Mephisto face in the spoon yep the red comic book-y Mephisto face reflected in the back of his spoon I did not spot that the little flash I saw that I think Mephisto can easily be upgraded to Thanos level.

1:09:10I mean, even in this show, the way that he is dismissing Dormammu, who is a formidable dude. Like, Dormammu, you can't shine my boots or whatever.

1:09:18Chris Hewitt:That pillock can't clean my gleaming arsehole, I think is what he says. Yeah. So I think if they wish it, he could easily be upgraded to Big Bad. If he wishes it. If they wish it, I mean, that sounds dangerous with this guy. Yes. Yeah, it's an interesting deployment of the character because it is fully leaning into he's not the devil, so it's not full confirmation that hell and heaven exist in the MCU. It is a dimension and he's a guy who's an overlord of a particular dimension. He's not necessarily the devil, but he does certainly fit certain characteristics. And he even references that. And even the look of the character was to me redolent of De Niro in Angel Heart.

1:10:02Chris Hewitt:Spoilers for Angel Heart. De Niro plays a character called Louis Cipher

1:10:10Chris Hewitt:and Mickey Rourke doesn't put that together until the end the man who looks like the devil who is called literally Louis I think it's Louis Cipher in fairness in the film Louis Cipher can we call him Lou? Lou Cipher wait a second so he's got the long hair the beard and I like the way that his accent was was changing as well So whenever he drops all pretense, he's a bit London any gov. And also, Helen, he not only deploys the word twat for the first time in the entire MCU. Oh, really? He calls Shakespeare a twat. He does. Yeah, well, I mean, he's wrong, obviously. He's the devil, isn't he? Or, you know, one of his buddies.

1:10:55He at least has the devil's number. So, of course, he would, you know, diss the greatest writer.

1:11:00Chris Hewitt:Well, the strong indication is that he knew Shakespeare. I get it. It has been suggested before that Shakespeare may have made some deals with some people to do what he did when he did it. With the right all those plays. Yeah, there's... Yes! Yeah, that was funny. Won the Beatles. I won't say which one. It was Ringo. Solid, solid gag. Appreciate it. Yeah, no, like there's a Sandman thread about, you know, Shakespeare making a deal with Dream in that case. Yes, yes. But I think that just goes to show you how freaking good he is. Yeah. It's like if a film made Leonardo da Vinci a time traveler, you'd be like, you know what, that tracks.

1:11:41Yeah, that makes sense to me. If you make Shakespeare a guy who made a deal to get extraordinary ability, that tracks because he had extraordinary ability. Don't make me start. what's more likely to you that we will see Sasha Baron as Mephisto and Vivi Williams as Ironheart again before and we're predicting that they're going to sort of blow this up after Secret Wars and have a mini reset or whatnot do you think we're going to see these characters again before that well they'll have to pick up the pace a bit if we're going to this is what I'm saying I don't know if we will and that makes the ending of this even more just a bummer to me because if this is how, if this is the last we see of Ruby Williams, which I think is unlikely, then that is just like, I know that this is the MCU, stories always continue.

1:12:37We know that, you know, your Iron Man's, your Captain America's, the Thor's in phase one, phase two, phase three, those things are going to go on. But when those movies ended, it felt like a page had been turned, a chapter had been read and closed and the characters had changed. beyond the fact that she's more eager to let people in and help her. I don't know if the V.V. Williams at the end of this show makes any significantly different decisions than the V.V. Williams who started this show. That is my big issue with it. And it's frustrating because I wanted to love this show so much. This is a black woman at the forefront of her own show.

1:13:15There's black women behind and in front of the camera. Obviously, there's a troll element to this. I want this to want to be great to like up the trolls and have Vian Kuglo.

1:13:24Chris Hewitt:It's been refueled once again by the worst. Which is just awful. The worst people. And as we've noted over the last nine minutes or so there's been stuff that I like there's been stuff that's genuinely good. Visual magic but for me storytelling character that's what gets me sort of fully invested on an emotional level with this show and on that level for me it did not hit the spot. We're back to Dragon's then again on that level I'm out. For me I'm out. The thing is though what's interesting is a lot of those early mcu shows which this is sort of a piece of because it was in production around that time is that they were intended to function as like a mini series whereas now we understand the direction going forward is like the daredevil born again sort of model where it is they're not six hour movies they are tv shows they are serialized it's going to be season one, season two, blah, blah, blah.

1:14:17Loki so far is the only other show that has had a season two that has had, but even that was initially sort of presented as a limited Loki series. The fact that this very intentionally ends on a cliffhanger, on a big, you know, dark decision and what's going to be the ramification of that, this is a rare Marvel show that sets itself up for a season two and maybe you know this is an expensive show it costs a lot to make riri williams look like she can fly in that suit but possibly there is a world where if they're going into proper serialized storytelling they could green light a season two maybe with a reduced budget maybe with a limit on the flying suit stuff but then when all of the sort of focus is on telling that character story let's go into the camera character ramifications of this choice that riri has made maybe what began as a show from a previous era of disney plus mcu could now be slightly reformatted and function in the daredevil born again model yeah i of mcu show

1:15:32Chris Hewitt:I don't know what the future holds for the MCU on Disney+. Wonder Man is coming out, I think, early next year or towards the end of this year. Yeah, so it's like December-ish. And then we have Vision Quest, which is either in production or about to go into production. People are being added to the cast, including, of course, very excitingly, James Spader as Ultron. Paul Bettany, of course, as Vision. And that's an exciting one. Daredevil Born Again Season 2 is in production or maybe has just finished production. but those are the three shows that they're working on actively. Comic-Con's coming up in a couple of weeks' time.

1:16:06Chris Hewitt:There may be a big presentation there because there are, Amon's shaking his head, but at some point, next year, the dance card is looking pretty light, both on film because of the pushback of Avengers Doomsday. So Spider-Man brand new day, I don't think that date has moved. So they might be rejigging the plot of that slightly because it obviously was going to be following Doomsday and now it's going to be preceding it. There's nothing else before Doomsday on the docket officially at this point in time. I still wouldn't be surprised if we get Black Panther 3 before. Let me see, I'm going to get my dates right here.

1:16:44Chris Hewitt:But there's talk of Black Panther 3, there's talk of Shang-Chi 2, there's talk of some other stuff as well. But I don't know until we know what is officially announced. I don't know what direction to go in in. I certainly don't know what direction to go in on the small screen. If this show isn't getting the viewership, it simply won't get a second season. That's, you know, give her a second season, you shit. You know, as Alan Partridge would say. And, you know, I just, it feels a little bit up in the air and directionless at the moment, which is a bit of a worry. Do you think, I'm up with him on, I don't know we're ever going to see Riri Williams again in the MCU or Parker Robbins, who is setting up an arc that may never be fully realized at the end of that show with the post-credit sting where he goes to visit Selma in the shop.

1:17:35Chris Hewitt:I don't know if we ever see these people again. Black Panther 3 is something Ryan Coogler is actively working on. We know that. But do you think it's going to have... Yes. But do you think it's going to have Riri Williams in it? No. I don't think so. Especially given the way that this ends, I don't think so. Yeah. It's interesting. I would personally like to see more. I'd like to see a resolution to this. Yeah, me too. Is this a good cliffhanger for me? I know we differ on No, if this is a halfway point I'd be happier with it You know, it's but it doesn't feel like it's not a satisfying place to leave the character for good No, absolutely not That's for damn sure and I think that's true of all of us So either, you know give us a second season or do something else with her I mean, if she goes fully bad and emerges as a baddie in a later MCU film I guess that would be interesting but that's a huge leap even beyond where we leave her here especially if Chris is right and she's wholly selfless in her actions at the end of the film 80 % 80 % I am willing to concede 73 so I think you know that's but then so for her to like turn up as a villain in an MCU film feels not not right at this point for her to turn up as a hero in an MCU film feels potentially problematic and something that would involve a lot of heavy lifting story wise to explain why she's got dark lines all over her.

1:19:00So I feel like if we're going to see her again, it has to be pretty much in a second season or a special, you know, a TV movie type thing carrying on from this show. I don't know where else you can take her except into a second part of this that is going to make sense to anyone.

1:19:17Chris Hewitt:Yeah, and Ezekiel Stein as well. That's an interesting story that needs to be resolved. I was a little disappointed that he did go down the villain route. It felt like it was genetic at that point that he wasn't able to shrug off the yoke of his father, which is a shame. By the way, that was the story, is it, at the end of Iron Man that he dies in a plane crash, wasn't it, that they engineered that? Yeah, that's pretty sneaky on Tony's part. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Tony didn't do that, S.H.I.E.L.D. did that. S.H.I.E.L.D. did that, that's right, okay. And also, it's clear from, you know, some comments here that Zeke knows what really happens.

1:19:52Chris Hewitt:Yes, because people would have seen Iron Munger on the streets of... No, who was in it, though. That's true. That is very true. Anyway, anything else you want to say about the show before we wrap up this bad boy? Or bad girl, should we say? Okay. Yeah. There you go. I didn't think... I've forgotten the name of her boyfriend type. Xavier. Natalie's brother. Yeah. I didn't think Xavier was openly geeky enough. If they're big Trekkers, I would have liked that to be a little bit clearer. I mean, they quoted the most well-known scene in Star Trek history, and that was all really... He looked in physical shape.

1:20:27He did. And look, hey, as all of us demonstrate, you can be a geek and be in superb physical form. Helen's given, oh, you like Star Trek, name three episodes. I am a little bit, but if this is the basis of their whole relationship, I just, like, at least throw me a tribbles or something. Like, don't give me the absolute most well-known line in Star Trek history, that's all.

1:20:53Chris Hewitt:The best well-known line in Star Trek history is live long and prosper. or beam me up Scotty which they didn't actually say in the whole course of the show I'm just saying I'm just saying I think if you're going to all the trouble of negotiating with Paramount of all the nits you have picked on this podcast over the years that is by far the nittiest of all the nits I've encountered all my troubles hers but by far the nittiest oh my god anything else you want to say Amon anything you want to say about this show Can I edge you towards a three? No Can I edge you towards a four? Hell no Damn it I was hoping to get him I thought his defenses were down Try a five Okay, good idea Can I edge you towards a five?

1:21:41Chris Hewitt:Of course Not Let's shake on it Sell your soul Are you my best, Chris? No comment I'm Wally Fisto Kit Fisto Kit Fisto oh no he is wearing a red shirt why have you brought up Kit Fisto whose sacrifice meant so much to so many in the five star movie Attack of the Clones are you no no no I'm just impressed I'm just impressed that you mentioned Kit Fisto and then James hasn't crashed through the door immediately to talk about him oh yeah Ben got Star Wars wrong. Oh, now he knows how the makers of Rise of Skywalker feel. Boom! Get the fuck out of here.

1:22:37Chris Hewitt:Good movie. Good movie. Good movie. Don't even sell my soul to save. All right, we done here? I think we're done. I think we're done here. All right. It was in danger of becoming a Revenge of the Sith spoiler special there for a second. You like Star Wars? name three Clone Wars episodes. Thing is, they could. All right, let's move on. Because that is it for our Ironheart. Hey, she doesn't get called Ironheart at any point in the show. At any point. Ironhead, maybe. Yeah. Oh, I'll break the Ironheart. And the head. Anyway, that's it for our Ironheart spoiler special. Hope you guys enjoyed it, especially the bit where we yelled at each other.

1:23:18Chris Hewitt:That was fun. Right. There are more spoiler specials coming your way. I don't know what am I on calendar Superman Superman Superman that small independent movie no it was a massive blockbuster I'm on you must have seen posters everywhere it's a pretty big deal Ellen's got some I saw Superman hanging from the shard the other day yeah not in a miscellany kind of way just to be clear he was like he was like holy shit that went dark

1:23:52Chris Hewitt:wow we're gonna find this superman we're gonna hang him from the tallest building he's gonna pay for his crimes in 2025 we've got to make this shit clearer right this has possibly been one of the wildest Mussolini mountain rangers we've really gone far in my I did think that pose of superman on the shard pose pose I feel like you'd look at that and think, that's the void. Yeah. Hovering up there. Terrifying. I'm getting strong Brightburn energy from that motherfucker. And that is why he must hang for his crimes. With a kryptonite rope around his neck. Wow. Wow, that was too far. That's too far.

1:24:42Too far.

1:24:45Chris Hewitt:so after the Superman Sport Special there's other great stuff coming up as well including the Fantastic Four first steps would anyone like to execute Reed Richards who wasn't riding on the back of Mephisto I don't think you could hang him he would just out of there wouldn't he you could hang him with himself I don't know Doctor Doom would find a way you're such a Doctor Doom Stan listen to you you fucking hypocrite oh I don't like this show because Riri Williams made some decisions that were morally questionable not like my boy Fritter von Doom who is the greatest of all characters dude you love Galactus I do fucking love Galactus but Galactus is beyond good and evil he's a Nietzsche character Nietzsche anyway oh god I tried to get highbrow and it went badly but anyway

1:25:44Chris Hewitt:Bye. What's happening? Is this the dark dimension? I don't know what's happening. Dr. Mamu, I've come to bargain. Please let this end. Toodaloo. I feel like I'm trapped in an endless loop. You could absolutely hang Reed Richards by himself. Helena, think if you just keep saying toodaloo, maybe this way. That's what I was trying to do. He'll take the hint. I was trying to break the spell. How would you kill the thing? How would you... With a chisel? Yeah, just... I'd set Michelangelo with it. Chisel away at him. He just comes out even more buff, sculpted, smooth. Ah, dear. I'm going to have to put a trigger warning in this, aren't I?

1:26:29Chris Hewitt:Anyway. Dangerous levels of nonsense. Anyway, that is it for our Ironheart Sparta special. I hope you guys have enjoyed it. and keep and peel for more supported specials coming along. And if you have made it this far, thank you for your support and please don't cancel your subscription. All that remains now is to say goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning. Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara. Toodaloo again. Toodaloo! Goodbye, Ben Travis. I'm also going to go toodaloo just in case it helps end this. Are you going to go toodaloo? Is that what you're doing? Also that. This has been a long pod.

1:27:03Chris Hewitt:It has been quite long. Very important to hydrate this time. Toodaloo. Toodaloo! that's the safe word toodaloo your toodaloo's only make me stronger the only strength of my resolve to keep this podcast going it's goodbye from a mon mormon toodaloo I'm adding to the toodaloos are you saying toodaloo or toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo toodaloo and it's goodbye from me as well Thank you for all your fan mail And your contracts Binding my soul to yours And in perpetuity They're getting tossed Thanks for listening See you next time Bye