Joe Carnahan on The Rip: An Empire Spoiler Special Interview

0:14Chris Hewitt:Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to the latest Empire Podcast spoiler special interview. And this one is with Joe Carnahan, writer-director of the cracking new Ben Affleck Matt Damon cop-thriller The Rip, which has been on Netflix for a couple of weeks now. Now that enough of you have seen it, here is my in-depth interview with Carnahan, in which we discuss the movie's various twists, turns, and its unexpected real-life influences. This was inspired by a real-life rip, although the events of the movie play out very differently. But there is another real-life inspiration behind this movie that gives it a lot of its heart and soul, and that is where Carnahan and I started.

0:55Chris Hewitt:As ever, do not listen if you have not seen. for the rest of you, let her rip. We're delighted to be joined on this spoiler special for The Rip by the film's director and co-writer, of course, Joe Carnahan. How are you? Chris, I am lovely. How are you, my friend? I'm not too bad. Not too bad at all. I'm excited to be talking finally on the record about this movie in terms of spoilers with you because, fuck me, there's a lot to talk about. I've not talked spoilers, so I can't think there's anybody better to talk about than you. So let's do it, dude. Bless you, sir. Alright, well let's start off because this film has a real emotional kick to it that I think is going to be unexpected for a lot of people It is dedicated to Jake William Cassiano Yes For people who don't know, who is that?

1:43Jake is the son of Chris Cassiano who Matt Damon's character is loosely based on and Jake passed from cancer at the age of 11 and I, as a as a, as a means of trying to help my friend process the crushing grief and unbearable sadness that an event like that would bring you. I can't think of a worse faith than a parent outliving than me outliving my kids. It's just not, you know, and I think I, I wanted to give him something to push that, you know, agony into that was like, okay, as clumsy as it may have been like, okay, this is, we could build through art, through film, this kind of monument, this kind of memorial that will last, that will give his brief time on this planet some weight or whatever, or some something, you know, some lasting.

2:43And so that's really what that was about. And so, you know, and it was, and I got to say this, you know, the Director's Guild has kind of hard and fast rules about how, you know, Credits must appear at the end of a film. And they didn't even hesitate when I asked for a waiver to make his name the first thing you saw.

3:06Chris Hewitt:That's really beautiful. And there's just this lovely touch throughout the film. How much did you talk with Chris about... Dane is not Chris, obviously. What happened in real life is not what happens in the movie. but Dane in the film has a son called Jake who passed away from cancer at the age of 10 in the film. How much did you and Chris talk about, about that, about taking aspects of his life and making them Dane's? It was, you know, Chris, it was, it was important that he sign off on, on what I was doing. And it, and it's funny. Like he said, I trust you, man. That took him a long time to read the script.

3:47And I knew it would be a, you know, an emotional event for him to, to read it. And he was so lovely and, and gave me his blessing and understood what, what it was. And, and even now is so, is so happy that we made it and that, you know, and that Jake will, will be memorialized in this thing. And, and, uh, I thought, you know, it was interesting because I thought, I didn't want it to feel exploitive and I thought I want to keep it Jake, his name, but I didn't want it. I used the photo that you see is my son, Rockne at five. And I think it needed some weight for me too. I had to feel like there's some skin in the game of like, well, this is my child, but he's still, thank God, here.

4:35And yet I wanted there to be the visual connective tissue. It sounds silly, but it was really important. Again, I didn't want to feel like we were being overly exploitive that's a tricky that's a that's like tiptoe on a tightrope you got to be very careful how you how you how you say these things because it can very it can very it can be it can feel gimmicky and i don't want to do that and i wanted to really tip my hat to my friend and to the memory of his son and and be as respectful and dignified about that as i could be there's something in the film as well i mean there's this

5:11Chris Hewitt:I said the ending's emotional I'm not just talking about the scene on the beach at the end with Dane and JD although I do want to talk about that of course I'm talking about the scene with Desi where she's already asked earlier on what the tattoos stand for on Dane's arms you know are we the good guys we are and always will be and there's such emotion going through that scene and you're not slathering on loads of backstory you're just letting the actors tell it with minimal dialogue and with facial expressions yes uh but also those those tattoos are kind of the mission statement of the movie in a way this is a morality play yes absolutely because i think that that you know chris has tattoos not anything like that but i use that as a kind of a jumping off point of you know what that would mean what and again the idea of imprinting yourself with this these these initials and what they mean to you and also to be you know chris says you know he He has the tattoos in a similar place, but it's like, so when I'm, when my hand is here, I've got, you know, I'm holding a gun or whatever.

6:14I could see what the, what the it's right there. You know, it reminds me of this. And I think that's why I put it right in that kind of crest above the thumb. Um, but yeah, it really is, man. It's like, you know, I'm a very, it's so funny, Chris, I think we talked about this before. We're talking about narc, but you know, I'm, I'm very pro cop. It's probably the most illiberal thing about me is I'm, I'm very, very pro cop because I've had the good fortune of knowing extraordinary men and women in law enforcement. So I'm not, you know, I'm not there to drag. I understand that there are bad eggs.

6:43I understand that, you know, like somebody asked me earlier, it's like, I don't want this conflation with ICE and who they are. ICE are not law enforcement. They're thugs. They're masked thugs. But it really is. It's the cornerstone of the film is that. And again, the other stuff, Chris, only works if you are invested at that level into those things and the mystery of what that is what do these tattoos mean they mean something you know um and then how you how that how that gets revealed um and then again some of the stuff that we took out which is really interesting because there was a larger conversation with desi where and i we it's so funny we moved it from there to then we moved it to mad on the beach uh with with with ben and and it and it was basically his dumar saying to him i couldn't I couldn't stop it I couldn't catch the thing that killed my kid and it always you know daggered me even now I'm getting fucking choked up um but it was the performance was so in their eyes at that moment and just the two of them and that

8:00Chris Hewitt:understanding was there without saying it you know what I mean And also it invites the audience to go on a deeper dive into his motives and go back to the film. And where was I missing? What was I not seeing? You know? Yeah. But yeah, a huge part of that story. Because it's all there. I mean, it's one of those things. I mean, the movie, at various moments, invites you to consider Dane's motives and whether he's doing this for the right reasons. And similarly, JD and similarly, everyone in the unit. Right. With the possible exception of Mike. Even now, we see him with the burner phone. Yeah. But I think once you understand what the tattoos stand for, in hindsight, he would never have done anything improper.

8:52Never. but you can't you know you can't I'm trying to remember it's my movie I've seen it 500 fucking times I can't remember it's like if he says okay we're telling him we are he tells Desi we are and always will be but you're not no I don't think he does he doesn't say it he says are we the good guys you need to help you're a good guy

9:17Chris Hewitt:the first time she asks in the house he does say that does he do the other one I can't remember Yeah, he does. Yeah. He says them both. But I guess the first time you're going, well, is that ironic? You know, is that like an ironic challenge to, you know, his first immorality? Is he going to become, is he going to be breaking the rules over the course of the night? And then the second time you go, no, he's absolutely rigorous. He's not going to break those rules. Right. And yeah, you're right. Because I think it plays more as a declaration. It's like a proclamation of like, you know, yes, we are.

9:45Are we the good guys? Yes. It's almost like a reminder to himself. And you don't get the deeper context until later. And then you're right. It absolutely makes sense. He was never going to go south Which again, it's so funny Because that moment Where they were all standing around And the counter hit that number It was exactly the same number on the card That actually happened That actually happened, brother And he told me that, I was like, oh fuck That's the most cinematic shit I've ever heard That's amazing That's gotta be it, man So that wasn't like CG manipulation? Yeah, no, just boom

10:20Chris Hewitt:it was it was it was great man great i love that i love that because you do you go to great lengths to cast aspersions on dane and jd throughout the movie and i love the fun that you're having with that you know and keeping the audience wrong footed uh and you also do your trading on again a 40-year friendship you know you're trading on you know there's that scene in the bathroom at the beginning where it's like you know and you feel the connective tissue between these guys you feel the the the bond that they have and and i think the movie when it's when it works is really uh trading dining out on that aspect of their relationship this long i mean you think about brothers like these guys are friends as kids who both go on to become movie stars in their own right it's almost unfathomable like it doesn't happen you know it's like more more likely it ends with like you know you know one of those guys hits it's like yeah my asshole buddy he's a big star now.

11:13It didn't work out for me. You know, it's like, but here you go. You got these two and also guys that are just like Oscar winners, heavyweights. You know, Ben should have won Best Director for Argo. Hands down, he should have won that year. You know, so it's like, it's again, but you see them, and I got to tell you, man, like, the grace and the room and the bandwidth that they gave me to do my thing was they didn't need to, and they did. It was remarkable. Like, really, like, what do you need? Tell us what you need, where do I need to stand, what do I need to say, let's go.

11:48Chris Hewitt:I love that. Because you told me once, Joe, that you wrote this screenplay in about five weeks. Yeah. And one of the things I can't quite get my head around with is that there's not an ounce of fat on this screenplay. Right. Things you set up in, like, scenes two and three pay off right down, you know, towards the end of the movie. at what point did you hit upon the notion that Dane is weeding out the trader by telling everyone in this unit a different number? That was early on brother I thought because I wanted to because I think in these types of movies because it's very much I don't consider myself a particularly technical writer but I'm like at this point in my career I'm a pretty good mechanic right I can work on a you got a V8 engine I'll work on that you got a rotary engine I'll work on that you know it's like you got a giant rubber band and you know I'll work on that.

12:35So it really, Mike McGrail and I really went through and outlined those movements. And I thought we have to kind of, you've got to bait the lure early on. And when he starts giving these, it's so funny. That was the one thing that was kind of not contentious, but it was kind of called up into questions. Like, do we need him to be doing that? And I'm like, well, guys, if he doesn't do it, then how do you, how do we get to this? Because I think initially it was like, So on the Netflix side, I was like, wait a minute, are we giving up too much? Why does he need to say those numbers? Like, well, you need to cast doubt immediately on this guy.

13:10Like already he's acting a little weird and you're seeing him kind of reflective and you know something's going on with him. And then suddenly he's giving people different amounts. And it also needed to be there, but it also needed to be incidental enough that you didn't remember it right away. You know what I mean? Like you didn't remember other than it was weird. And that's all it needed. It had to serve the function of that's strange that he's giving people different numbers. And then if you are paying attention, he said 150K right there. He knows what's going on, right? So I thought it was really important for a lot of reasons.

13:45It's like you need that little bit of, you need grist for the suspicion mill, you know, and that was a good bit to hang on Dumars early.

13:54Chris Hewitt:Yeah, absolutely. I watched this last night. I think it's my third time now. I watched it last night with my wife, who hadn't seen it. And when we get the phone call to the house going, you know, no point dying over 150K, she was like, oh, he said 150K earlier on. Who did he say it to? She couldn't remember. That's it. That's what you want, right? You want. You get lost in the sauce there, which is great. That's what you want. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. That's amazing. So that obviously tips, if people are paying attention, people might know there's something sus about Mike. at what point during the writing of the screenplay did you know that dana and jd were going to get in the back of that armored car with the guys who were really responsible for jackie's murder who really wanted to rip the rip and what point did you know it was it was mike and maddie nicks i knew like i knew getting i in the outline phase brother i knew that that i knew what was going on so when I wrote those scenes, it was already plugged in that we had already, McGrail and I already kind of mapped those movements out and then just kind of refined them and fine-tuned them.

14:59So what was great about having that document is like, it let you flesh out the scene and know exactly what bits of dialogue you needed, where and when. And even, and then through editorial, you know, you realize, oh, we need even less of that than we thought. Pull that back. We don't need this at all. You know, so, but it started with, there was, there was a succinct nature to the writing that, that lent it. Like you said, there's not a lot of fat on it. And I think it got even more like, like it got even leaner as we, as we went along. But I wanted that once you, once we knew that, then you're having fun.

15:33And then you, and it's also now you're writing, you know, they're in that thing, like 17 minutes and you're never aware. This is like black box theater with four actors, but that's all it is, you know. and going back to what we were talking earlier about just the way it was shot and lit and moving in and out of light and shadow and so on it has a visual it's very captivating visually but uh but i knew and then once you do and then you're like wait a minute these are two these guys are always good guys how can they be the bad guys you know uh and you're still not you know i remember i remember writing the redial scene you know and like it was much longer and and you didn't need it man like once once the jig is up the jig is up because i also wanted because i also had to kind of bulletproof it against people going why did they just kill them when they got in the back thing they take their guns out almost immediately they know what the fuck is going on yeah right they know what's going on so their guns are out on their lap immediately now it makes it difficult to make a move on a guy i know you know what i mean if you're gonna do something you better be you know so i we tried to backstop all this stuff because there's gonna be some fucking reddit thread where he goes, well, actually, they could have done a D-D-D-D-D-D-D.

16:36Okay. You know, I wanted to smack this guy down before he ever got a head of steam. That's really what that was about. Shut the fuck up!

16:44Chris Hewitt:That's basically what this is. Shut up! Don't get laid! Get out of here! I love that as well, because also it's incredibly tense because, you know, Dane and JD take their guns out, and at this point, the audience still isn't quite sure what's happening at this point. So So is Matt pointing his gun at Ben or is he getting that out to potentially point at Kyle Chandler? Also, Chris, I think I have the good fortune. I think that I'm not a reliable filmmaker in the sense of like, I killed Affleck in the last movie I did with him, right? I killed him in Smoking Ace. So it's what Tony Scott did so brilliantly because it's like, and maybe I was the only dope that thought this, but when I watched Man on Fire, I thought Dakota Fanning was dead.

17:25I thought for sure she's dead. And that's who Tony was as a filmmaker. her you know it really threw me when when oh my god she's still alive i thought she was dead so there is this kind of idea of that people are familiar with your body work they go i can't trust this fucking guy i don't know what he's gonna do if he shoots matt damon i don't know what the hell is gonna happen you know what i mean so that that's an extra layer of or an extra little line of frequency in terms of that suspense in terms of that tension i think is really valuable um that you're not who knows i don't know you know what i mean like i don't know you know Liam Neeson got mauled by wolves.

17:58I didn't give him the end of they wanted there. You know what I mean? It's like, Nark, we killed Leota. Who the fuck's wrong with this guy?

18:07Chris Hewitt:Spoilers for all Joe's previous movies, by the way, in case you haven't seen Nark. That's right. Go show, buddy. Spoil all of them. But you do give the audience, I think, what they want at the end of this movie. It has a really, really lovely resolution. That scene in the armored truck is almost it's almost the usual suspects moment of this movie where you get to see Danes playing his hand. You're playing your hand as well. We're getting to see flashbacks to scenes that we'd only heard from a previous point of view. We're getting to finally see what the hell was going on all the way through the boom.

18:41Right. Yeah. You, you pay everything off, you know, it was like, and then, you know, this is, this is the, the, the, you know, the, the, the, the move is afoot. That's always been, it's just, it's Kabuki. It's a kayfabe. It's like, oh, okay, this is all working up to, And I think that's what you, like you mentioned, this is what the audience wants. They want to know that, that Matt and Ben are amigos and on the same side, you know? And, and I think that that's very gratifying and a very, you know what I mean? And, and, and that's why I love the resolution so much. That's why I love the idea that like, and it's so funny.

19:12Cause it's like, there's still people that think even when they see the girls drive, Oh, they, Oh, they got it. And they're okay with that. They're okay with them. You know, that, that was amazing. It's like, Oh, until I saw the counter, I thought they were, they had done it for, I was like, wow. Then it worked. in a way I didn't anticipate, which is always great, dude. If you go, oh, wait a minute. I didn't even, really? You still thought? It's like, no. Like, oh, yeah, I thought they were going to, they'd stolen it. And then Matt and Ben were going to meet with them. And they're all going to, I was like, wow, no, no.

19:40But it makes it that much more satisfying, dude. It's great.

19:42Chris Hewitt:And they don't take a single nickel, not a single dime is out of place. Oh, and that was in real life, bro. That was the same. Didn't take a dime. Didn't take a dime. Because again, you know, Castellano would say, listen, you take five bucks, you take five million bucks. it's that great line from the insider they could paint everything with that brush you know it's like now you're you're you're a dirty cop there's no in between in for penny and for pound like that's kind of the and i love that it also gives you this kind of real gratification that he did right so when he does have that scene with sasha and he does tell her what that you go of course of course yeah he wouldn't dishonor his kid you know absolutely and he just had to do and it's a very and I love that and they get this little this little nod from the cosmos at the end this little kind of karmic bit of you know and that was again because that was a much longer scene the little girl came over to him they talked you know yeah that scene in the beach I mean I definitely as I said earlier I wanted to talk about it because it was such a the Jackie echo you begin the movie with Jackie's murder and you end with Jackie you know in this kind of cosmic coincidence yeah which is really interesting I just thought it was such a it's such an unexpected way to end a movie like this.

20:55And I think there was a discussion initially. It's like, well, what are these, one of these, one of these end them walking out of the garage. It's like, guys, we got a freeze frame. Like it's a fucking, like it's a 1987, you know, you know, like Burt Reynolds, you know, a cop. Like, come on, man, what the fuck? No, it's so, so, and again, it's so funny. Cause it's my girlfriend, Ariana's voice. Who's calling to her. So I was, it's like, it has this, again, it has this extra emotional weight to it that I love that again it's just this and it doesn't need to be much man you know and you got two movie stars sitting at a beach at the end not dead sequel time

21:33Chris Hewitt:rip two riptide it's coming there you go dude I love it it's like they find money on a boat I don't know it's gonna be now a series of like them finding money in places that's all die hard was it was just different places yeah the other one it'll be the plane you know they gotta get to a plane that's got a bunch of money on it yeah absolutely i'm i'm fully on board with that uh joe got lady going in about three minutes so just gonna race through a couple of very very quick questions yeah yeah jackie haunts the movie so we the first thing we see is the the conversation between nester carbonell and matt damon but the first thing we really see of of real impact is is jackie's murder we don't know at the time that she's talking to Desi on the phone, which again, it's just this beautiful little touch.

22:19Chris Hewitt:Another beautiful little touch is that you don't overplay JD's relationship with her, but you keep the audience aware that he has Jackie's gun and that's the gun he uses at the end of the film. Yes. That's very much brother, a kind of a cop thing that, that, that, because I remember telling Chris about it. I was like, what if they, what if he had her weapon? He goes, that's fantastic. And by the way, he's not left-handed, you know, And it's so funny because the one thing I asked Netflix not to do, don't ever show Ben with his gun in the left hand. That I didn't want to, yeah, that I didn't want to mess with.

22:52I don't know why. It just didn't feel right. Like, no, any promotional material, don't show him pointing his gun with the left hand. And I just thought it was like this great, that great moment with him and Kyle where he's like, you get it now? You get it? After you know, by the way, they know what it is. It hasn't been revealed to the audience. They're just fucking phone books. Do you get it now? Do you understand why we did what we did? because you now you got to go, you know? And, and it was initially like this idea. It was like, cause I just had Ben shoot him. It's like, should we do a little bit of the Greedo thing?

23:22And he just kind of goes for the, you know, but it's like, it still works, but I had him just execute him. And there was this, and I said, we'll get, it'll be, it's a problem. If we don't, this is what they would do guys. It's like, you're not, you're not, if they catch a cop killer, it's going to be killed in gunfight with police. You're not making it into custody. It's just not, That's the unwritten rule. But yeah, she's such a big part of it. And it's so funny. Lena, the first time I spoke to her, the first time I met her on a video chat, we both were just bawling our eyes out. I don't know why.

23:54It was just this, I knew it was her. And she has this, Lena has this ethereal quality to her, just as a woman. She just has this other world. She has this thing that just is her, you know, that's so special. And I needed someone Also with her ability Her athleticism to do all that stuff You know, she's great Taught herself to shoot left hand and it's fantastic

24:16Chris Hewitt:I want to talk about the beginning of the film In terms of There's a real density of information In that first five minutes You've got You're cross-cutting between the interrogations You're talking about FeeCat, you're talking about TNT You're talking about Jackie's murder You're throwing a lot of names at the audience as well Were you worried at any point About information overload And making sure the audience would be Going along with everything they needed to know I mean maybe a little bit Chris but I think Listen I think audiences are radically Underrated and I think that We don't put enough faith into them And again Chris Nolan made a movie about Robert Oppenheimer Made a billion dollars Which is about Nuclear physics You know what I mean come on man Splitting the atom the hydrogen bomb like so it's like the this i think that people can i think they have the capacity to figure these things out and i think we didn't throw too much at them because you can go you go acronym crazy then they don't know what the hell you know what they're who they're who they're dealing with but i think we did it we tried to streamline it in a way that made sense and that didn't it wasn't like gilding the lily and i think that it works and and what does it When the VCAT thing does come back with those two cops, that guy was VCAT.

25:34I thought they shut that thing. So you are, they don't just dissipate. They stick around to be squared off at some point, which I think was important.