In short
John Woo discusses his Hong Kong action era and how he builds action sequences, emphasizing visual storytelling, rhythm, improvisation, and “heroic bloodshed” philosophy. The host frames the interview around the BFI Southbank season Bullets and Brotherhood: the films of John Woo.
Guests
John Woo (director; nearly 80; known for Hard Boiled, The Killer, A Better Tomorrow, Bullet in the Head; later Hollywood films including Hard Target, Broken Arrow, Face Off, Mission: Impossible 2, Windtalkers; currently hoping to make a movie with Nicolas Cage; wants to work in England).
Guest backgrounds
Woo grew up poor, sought safety in churches and theater, and watched Westerns and musicals in Cantonese screenings. He trained in stage acting and developed a visual, “quiet movie” approach due to difficulty speaking.
Key claims
His style comes from observing and “dancing” action; he often works from a simple outline or a single “key shot,” then designs sequences on set. He rejects easy machine-gun heroics, preferring one- or two-gun rhythm. He improvises and edits while shooting.
Notable examples
The Killer’s “one-shot” window concept; Hard Boiled’s corridor single-take with elevator set changes; the hospital sequence; and the hospital/war symbolism driving his anger-fueled shooting.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOChris's Journey with John Woo's Films
0:45 to 4:04
Chris shares his personal connection and experiences with John Woo's films.
“with a camera in one hand and a rocket launcher in the other.”
Introduction of John Woo
4:04 to 4:28
Chris introduces John Woo and talks about his legendary status in cinema.
“This was a joy, a dream come true to talk to the man who, in my opinion, is the greatest action director of all time about some of the greatest action movies of all time.”
John Woo's Reflections on His Career
4:28 to 6:42
John Woo expresses gratitude for his career and the support he receives.
“dedicated to him and his movies, the great John Woo.”
John Woo's Love for English Cinema
6:42 to 8:32
John Woo discusses his admiration for English film and its actors.
“I really love England, and I especially love to work with their English actor and writer.”
The Artistic Journey of John Woo
8:32 to 12:24
John Woo elaborates on his artistic influences and preferences in filmmaking.
“So you couldn't make Silent Night with an English actor because you'd have him talking all the time?”
From Priest to Director
12:24 to 14:00
John Woo shares his early aspirations and how he transitioned into filmmaking.
“and then I don't speak much about whatever I wanted to speak, it's going to be necessary.”
John Woo's Reflections on Childhood and Art
14:00 to 17:34
Discover how John Woo's early experiences with violence and art influenced his filmmaking.
“all kind of painting and great performers or great movies that made me change my mind Is that one of the reasons why the end of the killer takes place in a church?”
The Transformative Power of Film
17:34 to 21:48
Learn how film served as an escape for John Woo from his difficult youth.
“So whenever I get caught in trouble, I either went into the church or the theater.”
The Intersection of Beauty and Action in Filmmaking
21:48 to 26:34
Explore John Woo's vision of blending beauty and action in cinema.
“So I, and I, and make me feel, you know, they always make me feel, you know, they are always a good people, some good people in the world.”
Developing a Unique Style in Gangster Films
26:34 to 28:00
Understand John Woo's approach to creating a high-class gangster film.
“so since I got so much good influence from my old master in Soul Brothers you know I and he had made me learn a lot about the action, the kung fu, the martial art, you know.”
Show all 23 chapters
John Woo's Journey with Chow Yun-fat
28:00 to 37:31
Learn about John Woo's early career and his collaboration with actor Chow Yun-fat.
“When did you first meet him and when did you know that he would be your leading man?”
The Philosophy Behind Heroic Bloodshed
37:31 to 42:09
Discover the philosophical influences behind the heroic bloodshed genre in cinema.
“So that is qualified, you know, and he feels, you know, that's the, you know, the real knight, whoever got the true spirit should do it.”
Building Creative Relationships
42:09 to 43:21
Learn about John Woo's collaborative approach with his friend Cho Haku.
“So I didn't have a chance to talk to them.”
Improvisation in Action Sequences
43:21 to 45:29
Discover how John Woo designs intricate action sequences on set.
“But in the meantime, we like to use the art form to make an action movie.”
Method Directing and Dance in Film
45:29 to 47:25
Explore John Woo's method directing style and his love for dance.
“If I feel good, the starting coordinator and the other figure, they all feel good and I think our actor will feel good.”
The Concept Behind The Killer
47:25 to 49:22
John Woo shares the inspiration and conceptualization of The Killer.
“So anyway, and by the meantime, I'm a good editor.”
Challenges in Filmmaking
49:22 to 51:26
Hear about the difficulties John Woo faced while shooting The Killer.
“One shot in my mind is the camera outside the window and the window with a lot of tall glass with so many frames.”
Creative Freedom in Hong Kong Cinema
51:26 to 54:26
John Woo reflects on the creative freedom experienced in Hong Kong's film industry.
“so disappointed it's an anguished colony the english house look pretty much like french Anyway, at last we found a very old building to get that kind of shot.”
Funding and Collaboration in Film
54:26 to 56:00
Learn how John Woo navigated funding and collaborations for his films.
“Because our market is so small, we only got Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Singapore, or some Chinatown and foreign countries.”
Directing Hard Boiled: A Personal Journey
56:00 to 1:03:10
John Woo shares his experiences and challenges while directing 'Hard Boiled'.
“So that's why I was lucky to have a chance to work with Cho Huck and me, one of them.”
Innovative Filmmaking: The Hospital Sequence
1:03:10 to 1:10:01
Woo discusses the ambitious and groundbreaking hospital shootout sequence in 'Hard Boiled'.
“Did you do that in the hospital sequence?”
Behind the Scenes of Action Filmmaking
1:10:01 to 1:14:26
Learn about the challenges and teamwork involved in creating thrilling action scenes.
“they will crash the door one more time the second day fail because the elevator what we built already got stuck couldn't open and then the third day fail.”
John Woo's Farewell and Predictions
1:14:26 to 1:14:46
Hear John Woo's thoughts as he wraps up the interview and shares his hopes for the future.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:14Chris Hewitt:Hello Pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to a truly special Empire Podcast interview special. I still recall distinctly the first time I was introduced to the work of John Woo. I was in the kitchen at my friend Ross's house in Banbridge, County Down, Northern Ireland, where a couple of us had gathered to watch a film called Hard Boiled, based on a recommendation in, of all places, Empire Magazine. I can't remember if it was the review by Mark Salisbury that called it more exciting than a dozen diehards, and also had a cracking line that said that Wu directed as if he'd been born with a camera in one hand and a rocket launcher in the other.
0:50Chris Hewitt:But either way, it was a glowing recommendation that we took. and we, as nascent action junkies, got the VHS. Yes, folks, VHS, that's how fucking old I am, and put it on a crappy little portable TV in Ross's kitchen and life was never the same again. As we watched Chow Yun-fat and Tony Leung blow away bad guys galore, John Woo blew my mind. A couple of years later, I was studying film at university and wrote my dissertation on John Woo and the Hong Kong action cinema. Never mind what mark I got, that's none of your beeswax. but it shows the impact Wu's work had had on me as I ferociously hunted down his movies and then moved on to his contemporaries, the likes of Ringo Lam and Choi Hark.
1:33Chris Hewitt:A couple of years after that, I was being interviewed for a junior writer position at Empire and was asked what upcoming movie I would put on the cover. I replied, without hesitation, John Wu's Windtalkers, which really wasn't the kind of movie that would wind up on the cover of Empire, but they gave me the job anyway. those fools they've had years to regret it and then just the other day a number of years after that job interview a number of years after Ross's kitchen I won't say exactly how long but you can work it out I found myself in an LA office suite surrounded by posters of John Woo's movies Hard Boiled The Killer A Better Tomorrow Bullet In The Head and interestingly a massive poster for Jean-Pierre Melville's The Circle Rouge and, more pertinently, sitting on a sofa three feet away from me was John Woo the father of the modern day action movie whose work in Hong Kong defined the heroic bloodshed genre turned Chow Yun-fat into the coolest leading man on the planet and then caught the eye of Hollywood where he went on to make films like Hard Target, Broken Arrow, Face Off, Mission Impossible 2 and, yes, Windtalkers since then Wu has returned to China to make more movies movies like his period epic Red Cliff and come back to Hollywood to direct the likes of Silent Night and a remake of his own classic The Killer and now he and his movies principally the Hong Kong action movies he made before the move to the States in the early 90s but also with a couple of those Hollywood efforts and both parts of Red Cliff thrown into the mix for good measure are the subject of a brand new season currently running at the BFI South Bank in London entitled Bullets and Brotherhood, the films of John Woo.
3:23Chris Hewitt:And so when I found myself in Los Angeles last week, I was delighted when Mr. Woo agreed to sit down with me for a good old chunk of time to talk about his movies and his approach to movie making. We don't really talk much about the Hollywood era, if at all, in this conversation. Instead, we very much focused on his Hong Kong era and the action movies he made over there. And I hope that you will enjoy it. Woo is now nearly 80 years old, but he can still talk with the best of them. He's still hoping to make a movie with Nicolas Cage very, very soon. I will say in this interview, sometimes he would become so animated that he would hold the mic away from his face.
4:01Chris Hewitt:So now and again, he may become quite faint and distant, but hopefully those bits will still be audible. This was a joy, a dream come true to talk to the man who, in my opinion, is the greatest action director of all time about some of the greatest action movies of all time. Enjoy. We are delighted to be joined on the Empire Podcast by a legendary director who is currently enjoying a BFI season dedicated to him and his movies, the great John Woo. How are you, sir? I'm so grateful, and I'm really excited about it. and then I was so amazed after 30-something years and the movie we released again.
4:51But still, got so much great support from everywhere. So I totally shock because
5:07I'm so amazed a lot of people they still remember the film and love the film and still got so much
5:22about the Hong Kong film and about me so I feel I'm lucky I'm lucky I'm lucky to have a chance to make the movie and then to get the worldwide release and also had made so many people happy. Yeah, so I'm just grateful. I'm grateful.
5:57Chris Hewitt:But we should say, first of all, we're not in London right now, you and I. We're in your incredible office in Los Angeles. which is surrounded with posters from your movies many of which are playing in London at the BFI did you try to get over to London but I imagine you're a very busy man yeah I tried to unfortunately I got so much work to do in here because I really love you know my biggest wish is to make a movie in England. Really? I really love England, and I especially love to work with their English actor and writer.
6:56I always have really admired the English actor. They are very well educated about film, about, you know, everything. And then, and I like the way they are speaking a line, you know, this almost, no matter what kind of movie I watch, you know, when I'm listening what they're saying, I just feel like I'm listening a poem. You know, they're one, crystal clear and then and a lot of emotion
7:43Chris Hewitt:so and and and also make you feel you know very clever so and then I you know usually I like the quiet movie but for English movie I like to then to have a lot of dialogue because I like to listen to what they're saying so we feel the movie is really about a culture about a culture and a real human nature so you only could find from the English movie So you couldn't make Silent Night with an English actor because you'd have him talking all the time? Well, we have a problem with casting for the film. We did try to figure it out with an English actor. But, you know, unfortunately, there are not much actors who like the idea.
9:03Oh, really? Because there are no dialogue, you know. And, you know, especially in Hollywood, you know, the actors need a lot of dialogue. But Buster Keaton had no dialogue.
9:19Chris Hewitt:It's a great challenge for an actor. But yeah, you're right, because a lot of your movies are so balletic and they're so operatic. And yeah, of course, there's dialogue in things like The Killer and Hard Boiled. But it's also about movement and body language and saying a lot without saying anything. So is that something that you were always drawn to as a director, even back when you first started out, really, with action movies? Yeah, that's my style. Maybe when I was a child, I had a great difficulty for speaking. I had to pronounce any word or try to speak good sentences to make people understand what I'm saying, what I'm thinking.
10:19So that's why I've been trained to not see anything and using the eyes to look, to observe, to look at the people, look at what happened around me. And then I like to look at the beautiful landscape or the movie. So that's why it had drawn me into, especially, like everything about visual. you know I got so so many things always in my mind so that this is why I always like a quiet movie allow me to think and allow me to see you know what what what is a good thing in in a whole frame frame, you know. So when I walk down the street and when I look at the window, you know, they always look like a painting to my thing.
11:46Chris Hewitt:Okay. So that's how I and so that's why when I grew up a little bigger, you know, then I joined the
12:03stage you know player you know and then because I tried to you know train myself you know speak much better so I started as an actor on the stage when I was in high school so it was part of the training and then I don't speak much about whatever I wanted to speak, it's going to be necessary.
12:38So that's why when I'm watching a movie, I like more visual and less dialogue.
12:49Chris Hewitt:I love that you say you love quiet movies, because your movies are sometimes the opposite of quiet. I mean there's a lot going on but in a way you were almost not an accidental action filmmaker but that's not how you started off you didn't start off as an action director that was something that happened later on well actually when I was a kid I wanted to be my first wish was I wanted to be a minister I wanted to be a priest
13:30I'm a Christian. I really like a minister in the church. But somehow after I got involved with the arts, then I changed my mind. I think art is so fascinating. You know, it had fulfilled my spirit and also give my so much pressure about looking at art. all kind of painting and great performers or great movies that made me change my mind
14:26Chris Hewitt:Is that one of the reasons why the end of the killer takes place in a church? Is that? Yeah, because the end of the church to me was a really holy place to me just like heaven and then when I when I was a kid I usually beat up by the gang. Yeah, beat up by the gang. I almost got to fight with the gang every day. When I was that little. Wow. Because they all wanted me to join them. So every morning when I got up, I got to grab something like a weapon to protect myself. and then I knew when I went out to the alley I got an impulse. Oh wow, okay. So and then I got a fight back, fight hard. I usually got bleeding in my head also.
15:28And then when I came home, I got a bloody face. with a bloody face. So, and then whenever I got beat up, I used to run into a church nearby. And then the church, yeah, made me feel safe.
15:51Chris Hewitt:Gives you solace. Yeah, yeah. And then I can stay there, do something, sometimes do something, or sometimes doing nothing, and just sit there looking at the cross, the Holy Cross, and make me feel peace and feel safe. So I left the church, you know, and then when I was in high school, I even helped the church to draw the poster, you know, for every Sunday's topic, you know. Yes. So I love the church. I think it's just like heaven. It's a wonderful place. But sometimes it got ruined by the evil. you know and then when uh when the church being a kind of a symbolic is a uh those uh evil thing or evil people you know they they uh damage the holy things yes yeah so that's that advice to make our hero to fight with them.
17:12So it got some meaning there, you know, because I think we really need to well protect the church. So when I was a kid, you know, the church and the theater, the two things I really love, you know. So whenever I get caught in trouble, I either went into the church or the theater.
17:43Chris Hewitt:Wow, both made you feel safe. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Feel safe and I'm very happy. And I feel very happy. you know when i was uh since uh even though we were very poor but you know old time you know the uh the adult can uh bring in the uh the little kid uh uh into the theater uh uh no need to take it you know it's for free what yeah so uh everything uh uh we have a bunch of poor kids you know it's an outside of theater the backing some uh uh uh people please uh uh just say that i'm your son and then you bring me into the uh theater and then i I would find a way to watch a movie. So, usually the good-hearted people would like to, you know, bring me in or some other kid, you know, take me into the theater and to watch a movie.
18:58And then we're sneaking underneath the chair, underneath the chair, because the conductor, you know, the person who's checking Yes. The tickets. Yeah. I don't know how to record it. And then they find out there's, you know, the odds or they kind of, you know,
19:22Chris Hewitt:They kick you out. And they kick you out or beating up or something. Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. Once in a while I got beat up, I woke up to the stair, you know, and then I got to find know you know that I did I I I was look like that that the man's son you know said okay so and then he give me a punch on the face and then that cost me you know falling off on the stair I was there and then it's required I got bleeding on my mouth, you know, and then, but I still, you know, going outside to the sign door, you know, I continue to watch the movie from a little crack, you know. What movie was it, do you remember?
20:25Kind of like a western, you know.
20:27Chris Hewitt:Okay. You know, all the time, you know, every in the morning and nighttime, they were showing the Chinese-language Cantonese film. And then every day, you know, 5.30, they have a special screening for their foreign film. Sometimes it's the old musical or gangster film or Western, mainly Western and cartoon. And these all had an impact on you? They all were in your brain, knocking around? Yeah, it was so amazing. I love the Western, especially I love the musical. Yes. The musical. My first musical I watched was Visual of Arts with Judy Gallen. Yes. So I was so amazed about the musical. It just looked so beautiful.
21:35When I was watching those movies, it led me to forget what I had been through in real life. I forgot all the beating. I forgot all the bleeding as well. So I, and I, and make me feel, you know, they always make me feel, you know, they are always a good people, some good people in the world. The world is not that bad. You know, I, when I, The residential slums are really dark and dirty in a place. You can hardly see good sunlight. Even there were no trees around. Wow. So only people, all the poor people, full family, and they stick together. Yes. Anyway, after I found a movie, I really got a lot of joy by watching movies.
22:55Chris Hewitt:And now over the years, you will have brought that same joy to people watching your movies. I remember how I felt watching Hard Boiled for the first time and how it I'd never seen anything like it. You know, it absolutely exhilarated me. And then I went back and I watched your other movies. I watched things like The Killer and A Better Tomorrow 1 and 2 and Bullet in the Head. And, you know, and I was just so blown away by what you were doing. When did you become aware that you were having the same effect on people? but obviously with these action movies as filmmakers you grew up with you grew up watching had the same effect on you well i was making my uh my movie like a bit tomorrow the killer you know i've never know how the audience gonna gonna to uh react to it you know and then i just i said make my film, you know, and then I, the only thing is I think I'm living with the audience and I'm working with the audience.
24:12If there's something I'd like,
24:17and then if there's something I feel good, you know, I think that the audience and we'll feel the same way. Yeah. So, and then, and by the other hand, I'm a very romantic guy, you know. I love all kind of beauty.
24:41Chris Hewitt:Yeah. I always wanted to make some beautiful people, a beautiful moment, a beautiful emotion, beautiful meaning of life, you know, and then put it into the film.
25:05And I think that's a beautiful me, you know. So, I mean, it's a beautiful movie, you know. I mean, so, and by the meantime, I must say I greatly got a big influence from the Western movie, the movie from the West. You know, like the French New Wave, my great great idol David Lean, and a bunch of English directors, and old-time Hollywood movies, and North European films, like Ava Berman. So I grew up with that. And then I think if I can make a movie as beautiful as they are, that would be fantastic. But it was only a dream. And then of course later I found that I love dancing so much. I loved it so much so I think I think an action movie also can make it look beautiful so since I got so much good influence from my old master in Soul Brothers you know I and he had made me learn a lot about the action, the kung fu, the martial art, you know.
26:59And then the other thing was something I learned about, you know, from Zhang Chen is that he really loved his actress. And he know how to find a way to make them look great and make them you know look more like a hero you know so yeah he would decide everything just for the actor so that's what I learned from him so when I'm directing my own movie I just you know do what he did before I love my director I give him a lot of great respect and I find my duty is I got to try many ways to make my actor look great.
27:54Chris Hewitt:You succeeded. Yeah. He's extraordinarily cool, is Chow Yun-fat. When did you first meet him and when did you know that he would be your leading man? Well, you know, it was a long story. In 1985, when I got a supporter from Choi Haak, my very good friend, he supported me to make a birth model. And then it was my first gangster movie, you know. And then we had the same thing. and we want to make this gangster movie for the family, not for the actual audience. So, it means that we want to make it a very high class, with a true spirit, a very spiritual gangster movie. So this is why I was suggesting to use the real actor to do the action film.
29:12Like Joe and Fudd. And then I found Joe and Fudd. He was a very popular on TV, but not in a TV series, but not in a movie.
29:29even though he had work on some movie, but it all flabbed, and he had got a nickname called Box Office of Poison. But in my mind, he's a great actor. I think I just like Alan DeLong and Ken Takakula. They look so much elegant, so charming, and so beautiful, so handsome. So when they did some action, it looked so classy. So I think of what I see when I saw Joe and Fian, and he also have a similar quality. and he's a great actor and he's not a fighter. He had never learned any Kung Fu. He had never learned and he said to me he had never he even had never punched a guy. So he's a gentleman. So I think that's great because I always wanted my hero is a more look like he had a style pretty much like Gary Grange so that's why I used him for April of Tomorrow as one of the main characters as a killer but he and also make him dress nice more pretty much like Alan DeLong.
31:20So and then that might be very interesting using a real actor to do the action scene maybe you know we'll make the action sequence look more of a classic. Yeah. You know so and then and you know, more of an upper level, you know. And then he did very good, and then I said, you know, and then I found, you know, and then when we worked together, I showed him how to hold a gun. I said, you just watch a kid in years of the movie, you know. He's holding a gun in 30-Herry. He's holding a gun like this. And then, so, hold a gun or fire, you know. Sometimes it'll look like, you know, sometimes it'll look like a male Gibson, you know.
32:27So, anyway, but the good thing about using Joe in fact, he got both a great quality of acting and action.
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32:37Chris Hewitt:Yeah. So you taught him how to use, to hold a gun. Yeah. in both hands as well? Because that's a trademark, that's a John Woo, Chow Yun-Fat trademark. Yeah, but the first beginning was using one gun. When I talked to the props guy, in my movie, a real hero never used a machine gun because the machine gun is so easy. Even though there were over 10 people, 10 enemies, in the room, you just pressure trigger to the mold. I think there's no hero. And then I was suggesting our hero only use one handgun, just like an ancient knight using a sword. Yes. And then and using his brain, when he did the action, you know, he knew how to do it.
33:47And when he saw the guy, he was so precise. But, and then I said, you know, but it's not using one gun to handle 14 guys in a room. I think it's hard to believe it's hard to make the audience believe he could do it with one kind and by the meantime I'm so care about the rhythm especially the music rhythm so when I when I'm thinking or deciding an action sequence I will listen I like to listen in some kind of music in my mind you know So I said, is there any gun that can fire nonstop, continuing firing? And then they showed me the gun of Bertha, it's from Switzerland.
34:48Because those guys ran all the props guns from England. And we were the first time. So they showed me a different kind of gun, and then when they showed me the brother, the brother can load either 9 bullets or 14 bullets. So he can continue to fire, like that. But I said, even though I don't want him to use the machine gun, but I want him to fire to cut the rhythm like a drum beat. I get it's non-stop I said one gun is not enough how about try two and then the guy showed me oh that's interesting and then they showed me to fire two guns but you gotta shoot one by one you cannot fire at the same time because the frame is so strong and it would hurt the finger.
35:57Chris Hewitt:Yes. And then they fired to me. And then when they fired, I go fired to the father and then I take my lap.
36:10When they fired, I said, okay, that's it. That's a good rhythm. And they're very smart. So I let the children fire using two guns. Wow. Using two guns. And then by the meantime, since he's a clever man, he is clever enough to use four guns here, you know, to set the two guns outside of the door in case he needed. and then he used the first two guns first, and then after the red gun was pulled, and then by his step out, he could grab another gun. So that was the idea. I've been working, thinking of the scene, to design the scene for three weeks. Wow I was so glad you know it worked out very well you know when the first time I seen it they were shocked
37:29Chris Hewitt:You obviously you got on so well with Chow Yun-fat you guys worked together a lot of times of course you killed him off a whole bunch John I mean you killed him in a lot of movies as well was that part of the heroic bloodshed tradition that the hero had to die in a lot of your movies, not all of them obviously but in a lot well there are two things one is from the Chinese philosophy you know
38:01as a
38:06you know the man got a spirit of slavery He can be willing to die for a friend or for a country or for the one he loves for the justice. you know, whatever, you know. So that is qualified, you know, and he feels, you know, that's the, you know, the real knight, whoever got the true spirit should do it. and but in the meantime I also have you know great influence from Alan DeLong's movie yes yeah almost in every other movie he died he died too yeah so that's why yes because when I was working with Joe and Farr shooting with Joe and Farr yeah I didn't see Joe and Farr on the show I saw Alan DeLong of course in front of me.
39:16Chris Hewitt:Yes. Actually, he's still in front. But I saw him. I saw Alan DeLong or Ken Takakura, the Japanese doctor. I really also have greatly admired him. So that's how I worked out. That's how I got the influence. So when I try to explain about the true spirit of in America. It's hard to, I had a hard time to explain to them you know, that kind of spirit I really like and that kind of movie I really like to make. So that's why I couldn't get any same kind of script in here. When you started off making action movies. Choi Hock was a big mentor for you at the time. You came up around the same time as directors like Ringo Lam as well.
40:23Chris Hewitt:The heroic bloodshed genre was huge at the time. How aware were you of it? Did you discuss it with other directors? That was the tradition in Hong Kong action cinema at the time? As well as obviously the philosophy you were talking about. No, because there were non-fiction people who later talked to me. Okay. Because at that time, the Hong Kong movie, the comedy was so popular. And then I always said to them, this kind of movie, it doesn't work to make it. I mean, that kind of crazy, accessory, you know, an over-act of a drummer, you know. I think this kind of movie is not for long, you know. And then people just, even though you make a lot of money, but you know, but another year the audience was totally forgot the movie.
41:41So why we make it? So, but the people didn't like to listen to me. You know, I said, a movie should be like, you know, Lawrence or Arabia or whatever. you know, the third man, you know, and the 400 bro, you know, or eight and a half, you know. So, and they thought I was a butcher, you know, so they didn't listen to me. So I didn't have a chance to talk to them. But in the meantime, I think differently from the others. Yes. So, my only friend is Cho Haku. Oh, really? Cho Haku is there. With Cho Haku, we can talk a lot of things. He also had given me a lot of help to solve any problem. And actually, he also very good at dialogue as well.
42:53Chris Hewitt:Oh, good. So, and then he, we both like human story, but we also like to make a movie for,
43:08for the bigger audience,
43:15we're happy to accept it and feel it. But in the meantime, we like to use the art form to make an action movie.
43:31Chris Hewitt:I think some people might be surprised to learn that you essentially improvised a lot of your action sequences, so you would wait to get on set and then you would design the action sequence based on the set that you had or based on the location you had which given how intricate a lot of your action sequences are is mind blowing so how did you do that how did you I don't know maybe I trust my instinct you know I said the first thing first of all I I was pretty involved in a movie, especially for the main character. When I'm shooting a Joker fan as a killer, and I feel myself as a killer, and I walk like a killer, and I live like a killer.
44:31So when I went home, and my wife and my kid didn't know how to handle it, and didn't know how to talk to me.
44:39Chris Hewitt:You were a Method director? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can see that. And then, so when I come into the set, but usually in a script, there's two or three movies, I even saw it without a script because of the whole movie all in my head. Yeah. And then we only got a simple outline. for the crew and the financier of course.
45:18So I usually think very fast and make a decision very fast. I know there's something in my mind, there's some kind of action in my mind, So when I got in the location, if I see a long table, and I know how to use the table, okay, maybe our hero live up from the other end, live up in the air and shooting two guys over there, and then he landed on the table and flipped to the other side, and then continued shooting another guy. Then I would do it by myself. I did it by myself first. I used a small chain, I stepped on it and leave it, holding it to a dummy gun, and rolling on the ground, and then ask the starting coordinator, okay, put the three guys there and put another two guys behind me after I shoot the two guys in front of me and then I turn to kill another guy.
46:46If I feel good, the starting coordinator and the other figure, they all feel good and I think our actor will feel good. This is how I work and by the meantime, I love dancing. I was a pretty good dancer. Twinkle toes. And especially cha-cha. I love cha-cha.
47:09So I know, so that's why I showed the actual sequence more like a dance. So when I'm on the set, I just feel like I'm making a dancing sequence instead of a fighting scene. So anyway, and by the meantime, I'm a good editor. Yes. So I edit and shooting at the same time. So every action piece and the camera speed, you know, which camera is a normal speed or 50 frames or 100 frames or 96 frames, you know, it's a different angle. and all the camera angles were connected, not just the shooting for a reference or something like that. You know, it's shooting for real when he jumped over this camera and the other camera can capture his close-up and then bring him into shooting the gun and then land on the ground and then we got another camera on the ground.
48:24So that's how I worked and by the meantime since I liked the European film so much, I remember when I was shooting The Killer. In the beginning we got no script, no story. I just want to make a movie to homage to John F. Mel was a samurai. So all of a sudden I got the idea if the cop also become the killer. So I think in order the cop wanted to catch the killer and he had to become him and he had to understand him. So all of a sudden I got one shot in my mind. One shot in my mind is the camera outside the window and the window with a lot of tall glass with so many frames. And then the camera was put outside and then started from left to right.
49:40And then each frame, the first frame, we saw the killer sitting there and smoking and thinking. and then when the camera crossing to the second frame and then we change the cop sitting in the same position and doing the same thing and smoking and thinking like they are thinking each other and then to the third frame we come back to the killer again and then the cop so just this one idea, one shot, we started with this kind of one shot. And nobody knows what's going on, and why I'm going to shoot it. I just asked the producer, okay, find me in a French house in Hong Kong. Find me in a French house with a tall window.
50:49And then there was a lot of, you know, uh and a frame you know and then i saw they fired for months you know and i couldn't find one so i said uh i need to i gotta because i got a one shot this is the only shot uh for the whole movie as the key shot for the movie so and then i started writing a story start from this shot from that one shot yeah yeah and uh from the one shot and then after a month uh you know the police came up to me john we couldn't find a house uh this is hong kong not french uh so uh so uh no french uh uh so disappointed it's an anguished colony the english house look pretty much like french Anyway, at last we found a very old building to get that kind of shot.
51:59So we got that shot. So that's how I worked. Sometimes I saw what I feel. I saw what I, all of a sudden there's something come up in my mind that they never saw it. Wow. So, you know, I really miss when we were working in Hong Kong. We really got so much creative freedom.
52:29Chris Hewitt:Yes. And no one will come up to you and send you any notes to give you any advice or, you know, even though the financier never got a chance to come to the set. For the financier, Goodland Princess, they got so much money and they own the Kowloon bus. And then for the film business, they also
53:11They have so much confidence on us. So this time when we are trying to start a movie, to shoot a movie, we just give him, sometimes we give him a script, but sometimes it's just a very simple outline and then they usually ask how much I say okay about 20 million dollars okay what kind of star Joe and Fat and he oh okay that's great and then when you're going to swim, maybe in a couple months or okay, go ahead, do it. Wow. Give them money. So they are very simple, so simple. And then
54:13And because we trust each other, they know how we work, and I know how to make a move where we can get the money back. Yes. Because our market is so small, we only got Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Singapore, or some Chinatown and foreign countries. Yeah. And then we easily could make the money back. So we got used to deciding some action sequence, audience, love. Anyway, that's how we make the movie. And then we are really like a tour on the set. we just start with the feeling wow so that's a good thing about Hong Kong and by the meantime in the 1980s the Hong Kong movie had a big change they were changing you know like a revolution so the there are a lot of great film
55:39They have been called the Hong Kong New Wave. Most of them have been studying from England or America or Australia. Anyway, they are very knowledgeable filmmakers. So everyone will bring out some great new film. So that's why I was lucky to have a chance to work with Cho Huck and me, one of them. so that's we were lucky timing but you said that
56:33Chris Hewitt:you used to say to the producers I'd like to do this and they would go how much 30 million and when will it shoot next year maybe with Hard Boiled Hard Boiled was a big step up was it harder to raise the money for Hard Boiled it was such a bigger movie than anything you'd done before. No, it wasn't hard to do that. But the best thing was when I shot this film, I nearly got crazy. I had nerve breakdown because I was... Like you said, I'm kind of like the method director. So, like, when I'm, I watch the news every day, you know, and then the reason I shot that film, because at that time, the Hong Kong gang, almost out of control.
57:42Chris Hewitt:Yes. They got the firepower much bigger than the police force. Yes. You know, so I feel, and then shooting people on the street, you know, it was so crazy, you know, I got so mad. Every day, whenever I watch a film and some good people being beat up by the king or shot by the king, you know, I got so much, I got fury. Yeah. I put the anger into the film. Yeah. So I just keep shooting. When I'm shooting on the set, this thing I bring, that guy, and I saw him. He's just the guy who did that bad thing to the innocent people. And then I will ask, especially if the guy, give him much bigger powder, much bigger blood, and throw him off, you know, and then our hero, you give him more bullets, you know.
58:52So because I, how to say it, I was drawing in the news, you know, what had happening in the real world and and I bring it into the set you know so we have to you know you know just like give them a listen and also give them heart so when I'm shooting in a sea killing a couple of a guy that's enough, you know, we have to move on until but when I'm sitting there, no one could stop me. I keep thinking, you know, besides the criminal and also there are some other country, like a small country by the other much smaller country, you know. So the war is going on. So I also make me mad, you know, so I and also made me make the scene, the action sequence, like in the hospital.
1:00:20Actually, it was symbolic of a small country when they were being attacked. Everyone had been hiding in the war zone. you know so and then they have to fight back and they need a hero you know to save them something like that so when I that's why I saw the script they're not in the script there's all
1:00:56every scene all depends on my mood and my thinking you know and then what I have
1:01:08emotionally in fact by by something bad happened you know so that's how I don't say why we keep just shooting shooting and and then she said there are no script and nobody know when the movie, when the story is going to end, going to be end, you know. So that's why we are way over budget. We have double and triple and got a shooting schedule getting extended longer and longer and longer. Suppose we got to deliver the prints before Christmas because all the buyers from Korea from other countries they already paid the money and they already set up their releasing day in their own country they were supposed to invite the river before Christmas and they will release in Christmas day so they broke the theater everywhere but when I said in Christmas the movie still had one third in the finish so and then they all came over and fly over and then they're backing me John you got to finish the movie I said yeah I will I will try I will try to do it quick you know that's how yeah so there's
1:03:03Chris Hewitt:how does it work oh my god which is amazing because the hospital sequence is just extraordinary the corridor shootout the famous single shot take where you had to change the set whilst Tony and Zhao Yunfat were in the elevator I love that But just finally, just going back to what you were saying earlier on about, you know, figuring out the action sequences, putting yourself in the hero's shoes, seeing how it would look, seeing how it would feel. Did you do that in the hospital sequence? Did you show Chao Yan-Fad and Tony Leung what to do? How, you know, that shootout sequence, were you doing that for them?
1:03:52Chris Hewitt:Every scene. Every single scene. No wonder you were exhausted.
1:04:23Yeah, yeah, yeah. I use a chain to come over my shoulder and then I can shoot the scene. So that's how I work with the actor. And by the meantime, our actor is very brave. The reason we like to make a long shot is because we all have been stuck at a location for over a month. you know since it was a nice scene and we got to shoot it at the time so we had to darken all the windows so we we got to shoot it 24 hours a day and no one can leave the room and we only got a simple bed or and for the in a room for the actor to get some rest you know, somebody get tired and go get some rest. And then after we are all ready, and then we continue shooting.
1:05:31And by the meantime, you know,
1:05:36we exchange the crew every nine hours. Wow. And then we never know if it's daytime or nighttime because the windows are dark. And then while we were looking, all of a sudden the maid came in. He said, Mr. Wu, the breakfast is ready. Oh, and then we know, oh, it's morning.
1:06:10Then we ate and sure, you know. So, the whole thing was when we shoot a good guy firing and that guy got shot, every day doing the same thing, I get, we feel so boring. And by the meantime, we all feel, we're all stuck in hell. Yes. And nobody knows when we came out from hell, you know, when we get through. So all of a sudden I got the idea. I said, how about this? You know, I'd like to do a four or five minute long shot. and then Joe and Tony Leung start shooting from one corridor and then from first floor going to the second floor and do it all in one shot and it had never happened, you know, never seen in any of a Hong Kong film before, even the Western film, you know so everybody was so excited about it and especially because we said about it but the thing was we only got one floor and then I said okay I came up with the idea how about after the shooting in the first floor we built an elevator and the two heroes get into the elevator when the door closed we made up 20 20 seconds dialogue.
1:07:58No. So, let's say anything. And then in 20 seconds, the whole crew got to change the set outside the elevator. They have to write out the blood and pull out that body and replace the table and the window and then make to build the second floor set in 20 seconds. Wow. So, after 20 seconds, when the tower finished, the door opened, it's on the camera on the second floor and continued shooting and the camera followed. So, the first day, we fell and then we have no monitor but at that time, we have hired we have used about nine cameras from different angles so the special guy can hiding in one room can see the actor where they go when do they fire so they can press the button it was very tough the first thing was fail but we already ran out of money I said okay I gotta change the idea but the whole crew even the actors said no John and especially the Stan guy John this is your your idea this is a great idea you're going to make the Hong Kong film history let's do it again but they won't give us more money money is nothing let's do it again so the whole they will crash the door one more time the second day fail because the elevator what we built already got stuck couldn't open and then the third day fail.
1:10:18I said, okay, that's it. We have no more time. And then I got so much pressure from the producer. You know what I mean? And then, okay, let's try the last one. Last one, one more time. So, and then we do it again in the four days. So we did. Even though there was some little problem in there, but it's still okay. So at least we got through, we got a whole shot. And then everybody so relaxed and cheers you know so I I'm so glad to make this show happen yeah so I must say beside we have a good actor I also have a good team very good team especially the camera cool and they stand people when the camera cool when I got for the last scene when they blow up the whole building.
1:11:27So we have set 50 bombs in every three-story
1:11:40abandoned Coca-Cola factory. So we have set 50 bombs by the window. So a lot of people running out and they blow up. When the camera followed our hero, with the authority and tracking, he holding the baby, dummy baby running in the middle of an explosion. And then, but I saw off the camera, the explosion is still continuing. Oh my God. And there's so much good fire.
1:12:20Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And then I kicked the camera operator. I said, grab the camera to get into the fire, give me a shot. So the camera assistant got to unscrew the camera from the tripod in three seconds. and then I grabbed the camera or put on the shoulder and grabbed a wet towel or put on the head and then he ran into the fire and continued to shoot the explosion in the fire. Oh my God. That's how it works. Oh my God. That's how it works. And then for this thing guy, okay, there were two stories. Okay, you go out to the first floor and you got shot. Got shot, yeah, and you fall. face down fall on the ground with no cushion with no protection I said there's a I said okay we will do it and then he got fall on the ground that's how we so they're so brave and so so cooperative and they're the highest beauty you know so I I love my stunt guy so that's why one of the big visions I'd like to continue making an action movie because I have highly respect the stand people from all over the world you know in Hong Kong and America and England you know France wherever I work you know you know I I just want to keep the stand people alive yes keep working as well keep working and keep trying something new and they love challenges good they love challenges so I feel like you know I'm working with a friend honestly on that note John Woo this has been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for so much of your time but now I have to go to the airport I have to fly home thank you so much thank you your great support and I hope England I mean the British soccer team will win.
1:14:45Chris Hewitt:We shall see. We shall see. John Woo, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, that was John Woo, folks. And while his World Cup prediction skills may not be on point, this is obviously going out the morning after England lost to Argentina in the World Cup semifinals, that interview very much was on point. What a pleasure it was to talk to the great John Woo and Bullets and Brotherhood, the BFI season dedicated to John Woo is still running at the BFI Southbank in London until the end of July. So you'll be able to see both parts of A Better Tomorrow. You'll be able to see The Killer, Bullet in the Head, Once a Thief, which is a film that is often overlooked in his canon.
1:15:27Chris Hewitt:You'll be able to see Hard Target, which is a film in which Jean-Claude Van Damme bites the rattle of a rattlesnake. You'll be able to see Face Off, both parts of Red Cliff, and of course, Hard Boiled, which looks way better on the big screen at the BFI than it did on my mate Ross's portable TV but you're going to enjoy it every bit as much as I did and hey maybe even a little more and I hope you enjoyed that interview I know we didn't cover everything in Wu's career but I did genuinely have to run to the airport but it was an absolute pleasure talking to John Wu I know I say that at the end of every interview this has been a pleasure what an absolute pleasure this has been sometimes spoiler alert I don't always mean it but on this occasion I very much did John Woo dream come true and on that note that is it for this John Woo interview special there will be more interview specials coming your way very very soon including Matt Damon Tom Holland John Luke Wissamo and Himesh Patel on the Odyssey and Scott Aukerman host of my favourite podcast in the entire universe Comedy Bang Bang talking ahead of his forthcoming UK and Ireland tour that's going to be up there as well and other stuff other stuff's coming your way very very soon so keep your eyes peeled and thank you as ever for listening and supporting the podcast it means a great deal all right that's enough for me thank you so much for listening see you next time bye
From the publisher
Here's a hard boiled treat that will feel like a bullet in the head initially. It may even make you want to take your face off. But hold tight, for there will always be a better tomorrow. Yes, it's a very special interview with the legendary action director, John Woo, who invited our Chris Hewitt, a lifelong fan of Woo's work, into his LA offices last week for an hour-long talk, principally about Woo's groundbreaking, exhilarating work in Hong Kong on the likes of Hard Boiled, The Killer, Bullet In The Head, and A Better Tomorrow and its sequel. The two of them talk about Woo's humble beginnings, his discovery of action as an outlet and Chow Yun-Fat as his alter ego/leading man, his approach to staging action, his travails on Hard Boiled's greatest action sequence, and much, much more. We hope you enjoy.