Masters Of The Universe (ft. Travis Knight)

22:59And it happened so abrupt. Now, Mossman actually had a slightly bigger role earlier on the movie that, you know, for time and everything else. Ultimately, you shoot stuff and you have to cut it down because, you know, you have to fit it into the box that these movies need to be in. So the loss of him was a little bit more acute. But, you know, in large measure, we're just seeing how horrible Skeletor is. He's just awful. And I think he's delightful to watch. I think he's an absolutely fantastic villain. And you see it right there, just how blithely he takes a life without a second thought and then makes a joke about it.

23:37Chris Hewitt:Yes, absolutely. As we have, in fact. So are we as Matt a skeleton? Are we? I don't know. Jesus Christ. You've just given me a lot to think about. Oh, God. Also, I'm no botanist, but I'm saying if a man made of moss is disintegrated into a pool, he'll grow again. I am thinking there might be a way we could plausibly bring him back. So Mossman fans, there is hope. You monster, you killed monster. I've only got a few minutes left, Travis, but there are a couple of, I don't know how much you can say about this, but we see She-Ra at the end and then post-credits Sting. Can you say who plays She-Ra at this point in time?

24:15I will not say that. But yeah, you know, for anyone who's a fan of Masters of the Universe, you know, She-Ra casts a long shadow. She's a huge figure in the lore. Very important. Obviously, it's, you know, Adam's twin sister. And, you know, there were a couple of versions that Chris and I were kicking around where she was actually part of the main narrative. It was a weird, complicated rights issue with that. Because even though it's, you know, it's all, you know, our friends at Mattel, you know, some of that stuff is kind of like Marvel back in the day. Everything was carved up all over the place.

24:54So we were able to use her. We weren't able to use her. And finally, we got the green light. And so, but, but it fundamentally, it was outside the basic bounds of the story that we were telling. Okay. But we still wanted to make sure that we acknowledged her. And, you know, we tell a story that has middle or excuse me, a beginning, middle and end. And so Adam's journey to get to this phase in life is complete. But we did want to leave a door open for at least in people's imaginations where this could go from here. And she was a huge character. And, you know, for her to be so lucky to tell more stories in this universe, that she would play a big role in it.

25:26Chris Hewitt:Excellent. But Orko plays himself, right? Orko plays himself, yes. I thought it was a buzz. Actually getting the look of Orko right was surprisingly challenging, I have to say. In live action. Well, yeah. I mean, it's a CG creation, ultimately. I mean, we shot live action plays and whatnot, but Orko is a CG character. And it was really tricky to get him right. He looked like a Jawa for a long time. And then it's like, well, how do you do his eyes? It was a whole thing. Like we went around the bend many times on Orko's look, but I think he looks great. And yeah, it works. It works. Also, also in the movie, making an unexpected cameo was Dolph Lundgren in that scene in the gym.

26:10Chris Hewitt:Were you, was that always where you, you found a way to get Dolph into the movie? Were there other ways for Dolph to show up in this? I desperately wanted Dolph to be in the movie. You know, the film pays tribute to, you know, many different eras of Masters over the years. You know, the prime one is the original one, the one that I was introduced to when I was a kid. You know, so the toys, the mini comics, the cartoon. But the 87 movie, it was a big deal for a lot of us who grew up in that era. And Dolph is this revered figure in Masters lore. So I really did want to get him into the movie and had a couple different ideas on what that could be.

26:47ultimately the thing that made the most sense for me and for the story and kind of this passing the torch was you know the scene that happens in the gym yeah and um it uh and actually you know i developed a character with dolf like i sent up some pages i was able to convince him to be in the movie i was delighted by that but he had some thoughts on the character and we actually reworked it like we had a you know a number of different versions of that character ultimately we decided he was like this you know this this sage with a six-pack that he was like this this gym bro but he had this weird kind of meathead wisdom that actually adam doesn't understand in the at the in the moment yeah but then later is the thing that ultimately is able to rally the troops around so you know it's uh it was a joy to work with dolf he was such a good sport and uh to see the two you know cinematic he-men on screen at the same time it gave me no no small uh a bit of delight i love

27:36Chris Hewitt:that mental quality about you know the conversation about being the new guy yeah yeah yeah that must of was that an easy scene? It was a longer scene than what's in the movie as is oftentimes the case. You shoot more than you actually end up using the movie. But it was really fun to have both of them together. And, you know, Dolph is such a good sport and he's just so much fun. And I think, you know, Nick gives great performance. I love the music cues in this movie. And you do something really interesting as well. So you have a version of Boys Don't Cry, but you use it orchestrally as well. before we hear the song.

28:12Chris Hewitt:And also there's a Highlander riff that runs through the movie and you have a song from Highlander. Not to mention Brian Goddan May on the soundtrack playing guitar as well. Yes, that is one of the things I'm most delighted by is that we actually were somehow able to convince Brian May to be a part of this movie. I mean, our composer Daniel Pemberton, I love Daniel's work. I've been a huge fan of his for a long time. I've wanted to work with him for a while. And so when we started talking about the movie, the main musical touchstone that I had for the film was Queen. The 80s Flash Gordon movie was huge for me.

28:50I adored it. I absolutely loved it. And a big part of that was the Queen soundtrack. It was so, so good, the Queen score. And so I just wanted this film to have that kind of energy. I never could have imagined that we actually would have been able to somehow convince Brian May to be a part of the movie. and it gave me so much delight to actually be in his home recording studio and to watch him play his Red Special with his sixpence and hear this incredible Brian May sound come out the speaker. It was unbelievable.

29:20Chris Hewitt:Only Brian May sounds like Brian May. Only Brian May sounds like Brian May, and he was such a great sport. I thought he would maybe give us a couple of hours, but he worked with us all day and then days afterwards, and it was approaching midnight on the first day that we recorded with him, and he just walked out of the studio. I figured he was tired. He'd been playing for hours. And he comes back in and he went up to his attic. He comes back in and he's carrying two giant boxes filled with He-Man toys. It was his son Jimmy's He-Man toys from the 80s. He still had them. And he pulls them out and he knew who they were.

29:52Like, hey, here's Skeletor. Here's Manifest. I couldn't fucking believe that Brian May even knew who Skeletor was. Like, how crazy is that? And it was just one of these moments where I'm like, I could not believe what I was experiencing. Brian May playing on my movie, talking about Skeletor, and he knew who he was. It was such a trip. He was such a cool dude. It's one of those things, like, you know, when you meet your idols, I was a huge, oh, my God, I was a huge Queen fan when I was a kid, as every right-thinking person is. And so to be able to meet him and to collaborate with him and have him be such an amazing, he's such a good guy.

30:27He's such a cool guy. It really was an extraordinary experience. This whole thing, bringing this movie to life, I can't believe they let me do this. Seriously, this whole thing, really? I can make this movie? So I hope people love it because it's filled with nothing but joy and love. And that's a big part of it. Brian being a part of the score, it was just kind of the final thing on top. It made this whole experience that much cooler.

30:51Chris Hewitt:You say that Brian's a cool guy, but he might be a huge fan of Boss Man. He might be coming for your ass. That's all I'm going to say. Look, we left the door open for more Mossman. So I just, maybe... You've made a powerful enemy this day, Travis Knight. I might have, yes. And that enemy is Brian May. He's coming for you. All right. That was Travis Knight. I really enjoyed talking to him. He is a good fellow, Dan, as I'm sure you have experienced on many an occasion. Yeah, no, he's super enthusiastic. He absolutely was on board from childhood with this movie. That's the thing with him. He's just kind of like, he feels like he was born to make this movie.

31:32Chris Hewitt:Doesn't mean he was signed on to direct it as a child. No, I think he was. This is not what Amazon MGM do. This isn't a Cain Parsons situation. No, there were a long list of other people who might have been directing this movie since the one that came out in 1987. Yes. But yes, it finally ended up with him. It finally ended up with him, yeah. So yeah, I mean, as I think he's told everyone who he's ever spoken to about this film, film, his favorite ever toy as a kid was Castle Grayskull. I'm not far off that, actually, to be honest. We'll talk about the film in a second, but when I said Eric Quote's classic cartoon, I did love this cartoon when I was a kid.

32:09Chris Hewitt:It was the 1980s that happened before you were born. But I loved Masters of the Universe. I had quite a number of the action figures. I had Ram Man. I loved that little dude. You pressed him down, and then you popped a button on his heel and he popped back up again and he was literally ramming man it was amazing what was your favorite my favorite my favorite character your favorite toy my favorite toy actual toy i think it was i think it was ram man was it although i also had many faces as well who you could oh yeah you could swirl this head around robot monster yes journalist all sorts of stuff uh i really really i had adam i had i had beast man i had all all kinds of toys i had skeletor i did have a cast Grayskull set which was sadly neglected by me Hell's Bells I didn't have obviously you're too young to really remember the cartoon let's go with that sure thanks thanks appreciate it I went over to my friend's house and played with his He-Man toys because I had yeah I was too busy spending my money on my little ponies and Care Bears because I'm very cool and yeah they were they were cool toys that I wanted to play with they were cool toys big muscular motherfuckers it was a very stupid cartoon but I watched it yeah I also watched She-Ra, of course.

33:23I haven't watched the reborn She-Ra, which I hear is actually better, but one day I will, maybe.

33:28Chris Hewitt:How could it possibly be better? Seems impossible, but here we are. So, yeah, I was open to this, but I do feel like it is really important for us to remember that these are fundamentally stupid. Oh, very silly. And Travis Knight's aware of this. Yes, and I think that's one of my favorite things about this film is that it really leans into, this is stupid, but we're doing it anyway. And the sort of the rationale that they come up with for all of these ludicrous names, I thought was very nice. I had fun with that. Yeah, I like that, that it was Adam as a kid pining for Eternia, pining for the fjords of Eternia, who came up with the names, the ridiculous names of many of these characters.

34:08Amon, as someone who was born five, ten minutes ago, what does Masters of the Universe and He-Man mean to you? I was aware of the cartoon and the movie. I have not watched either sort of fully. I've seen clips of.

34:29Chris Hewitt:You mean you didn't sit down and revisit every single episode of the cartoon? I've seen clips of the classic cartoon, but I have watched the recent animated series on Netflix that I think Kevin Smith brought to life, which is really good and has an incredible Bear McCrary score, which I really liked. Yeah, I thought you might like that. If anyone's playing the Amon drinking game he's already mentioned the score of another property which is saying something. I mean, he sent me clips he sent me clips of this just to show off how good the score is in this cartoon. I did, yes. But isn't it great? Yeah, it's very good.

35:08To be fair, it's on brand. This film literally uses the song from another fantasy franchise of the 80s. It does, yes. It does. So I feel like we're on solid ground there.

35:18Chris Hewitt:All right. Listen, before we talk about the score, and I'm on filibusters for 45 minutes talking about this, shall we go around the table and talk general reactions before we delve into specific moments and themes and issues with the film and whatnot? Amon, let's stay with you on this. Don't forget, Dan is in the pocket of big motive. So disregard everything this man says. Amon, did you like the film? Where did you stand in the film? I had a great time with this film. I think Helen has touched on what the film nails most when it comes to the tone. It is very silly, but it also has a lot of love for everything in this universe.

36:02And it leans into both of those things without becoming parody. I think that's quite tough to do. But Travis Knight absolutely nails this. and given the bumblebee 80s-ness of that, it can make sense that he would be the guy to do that and do this right. On top of all of that, this film does what I thought was almost impossible. Jared Leto is fantastic in this movie, and he might be one of the highlights of this movie. As Skeletor, I thought he was fantastic. And it's been a while since I can say that about a Jared Leto film. So, it's got that going for it all.

36:42Chris Hewitt:All right, we'll get into that down the line, I'm sure. Dan Forth? Yeah, I thought it was a blast. I thought it was nostalgic in all the right ways. I thought it was irreverent in all the right ways. And my, I suppose, my MVP of the film was actually Nicholas Galatine. I thought that's a very, very difficult role to pull off. Even if you were going to be playing it completely straight, it'd be very difficult. But he has to kind of be convincing, as, you know, He-Man, but also be a comedy doofus guy. And I actually thought he was really funny. There's some great moments of physical comedy in there that he pulls off.

37:19One of which he improvised was actually one of his, which is where he comes out of the shop and jumps over the bonnet of the car. It's an oldie but a goldie. Apparently that was him. He came up with that. If I have a criticism, it's that CG look that films have now, and it has that.

37:38Chris Hewitt:A world that would have felt fresh maybe had this movie come out as it is right now in 1987, because the 1987 movie had budget constraints, and that's probably not the least of its problems, but had Travis Knight made this movie back then, we'd have seen worlds we'd never seen before, but now everything feels a little bit like, oh, that's from Thor, that's from Avatar, you know, maybe. It actually bugs me less in this movie than many other CG-heavy environments we've seen in the last few years, perhaps because it felt so almost cartoony and silly and therefore it kind of worked better for me. I think it bugged me probably most around the palace and that endless bridge that they kept running back and forth across over to Castle Greyskull.

38:27But other than that, I didn't find it as distracting as I find it in a lot of other fantasy films in recent times. I had a really good time with it. I wrote a three-star review for Empire, but it is a very affectionate, warm, I had a nice time watching this three. I have now seen it twice, and I had a nice time both times.

38:47Chris Hewitt:Oh, are you maybe thinking about recanting your three-star review? You've seen it for a second time. Was that maybe tilting towards a four? It's probably a four-star experience. I would agree with that. Me too. It's really good. It's definitely a four-star experience when seated next to my husband, who was literally clapping and cheering and Amon was on the other side of him and can confirm this story. I can confirm. And he was just having the time of his life. So that may have warmed me up towards it further. I was also having the time of my life. My mate Andy loved it too. Well, there we go.

39:24I also just love that this is another sort of very big, colorful, but earnest film that again is leaning into the ridiculousness of its world. like we saw that with Mortal Kombat I know that you that's fine we're going to see that again with Street Fighter we're not that far removed from the grim dark era of what these movies turned out or could turn out to be I like that this is more fun and silly and it's really embracing that 100 % if you're trying to be sensible and dark and gritty with characters like these called Skeletor

40:01Chris Hewitt:for God's sake and yeah look you can leave out a bunch of them You know, if you just stuck to like Man at Arms and Skeletor, essentially like they did in 87 and tried to make it grittier and darker, there is a version of that that I'm sure has been discussed and developed in the studio at some point. Yeah, for sure. And I am so grateful that they didn't do that because I would have trouble looking them in the eye. Because this has actually been in development for a long, long time. And it's gone through numerous directors, but also numerous he-men. He-mans? I don't know. But who was it? Noah Centineo was cast as He-Man.

40:37And he's not going to be a street fighter instead. Is he?

40:40Chris Hewitt:Wow, that's exciting. And that was a few years ago, maybe pre-pandemic. Then Kyle Allen was cast as He-Man. And that seemed like weird casting to me. Who's Kyle Allen? You'll know him if you see him. He's been in movies. Don't ask me to remember what those movies are. But you'll know if you see him and you'll look at him and go, that's interesting casting. That was another Travis Knight, I believe. and then Travis Knight came on and Nicholas Galatine came on as well. And I agree, Dan. I think he's really, really good in this. It's such a difficult role to nail because they've made the decision to make Adam a bit of a dork for pretty much most of the movie, which I think is a really, really interesting thing to do.

41:25Chris Hewitt:It gives him a lot of stuff to play. Does that make the transition to He-Man more difficult when you're coming from a position of dorkdom or does it work nicely for you? Well, no, for me that works. I mean, if you remember from the cartoon, originally, Adam was a bit useless, even though he looked exactly the same, except he wasn't quite as tan. He had that nice white top, didn't he, with the purple? Yeah, purple. Pink and white, yeah. So he was like, you know, there were always comments about him sort of being a bit of, oh, you know, he's kind of getting things a little bit wrong and what have you, just to kind of get a contrast with He-Man.

41:59But of course, once he becomes He-Man, He's just perfect. There's nothing wrong. Whereas here, well, it's an origin story, isn't it, at the end of the day? He's learning to become He-Man. He's sort of going... Welcome the power. Exactly. He's sort of like, just sort of, he's kind of like, I don't know, like a kid with a gun. No, that sounds really scary. But you know what I mean. I don't, Dan, but let's move on. It's the kind of Shazam model of superhero-dom. Like he is someone who is blatantly inept and not up to the job in his real life. I mean, to be fair, Shadam isn't inept. He's just like 12.

42:39But, you know, then he becomes this very, he's suddenly given all this power and has to kind of figure out how to wield it. And I think he does play it brilliantly. As I've said, I'm not, I haven't been a huge Galitzin fan. I don't dislike him. I think he's been fine in things, but I wasn't like on this train going, oh my God, I'm so excited to see his, He-Man. I was like, whatever. But I just thought he was... It's such a beautiful comic performance. He gets the emotional beats right. He has that sincerity you mentioned, that earnestness. I think he's terrific in this. He's really the MVP for me.

43:16He's just so good. Impressive muscles. I mean, sure, yeah. Thank you.

43:21Chris Hewitt:Yeah, it's interesting how when he's like dorky Adam, they have to drape really, really baggy shirts over him because he's clearly ripped to fuck. Not that Helen noticed, obviously. No, no. It's a bit much, actually. Come on, the massive universe look is a bit much. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Although he's, I mean, compared with the toy, I mean, he's very slimmed down. Yeah, absolutely. There's a reason they cast Dolph Lundgren originally. Yeah. I mean, in the 80s. Travis Knight, yeah, precisely, he's a man hewn from granite, but Travis Knight is fond of saying he has arms like hams and legs like tree trunks and Galicine has actually gone quite a long way towards getting this word down.

44:02Chris Hewitt:But the earnestness is really interesting because for all the tongue-in-cheek nature of this movie, for all the glibness of this movie, for all that it nods towards the cartoon in that it has a scene towards the end where someone makes a really terrible joke and they laugh for 30 seconds. Well, bending backwards. Hands on hips. For all the Fisto gags, for all the give-em-head Ram Man references. There is an earnestness to this movie. The death of, Knight and I spoke about this at length, the death of James Purifoy's King Randor is really interesting because it comes kind of out of nowhere. He's the most dead-meat-Thompson character I've seen for a long, long time.

44:50Chris Hewitt:But when he dies, Adam gets that really interesting, earnest exchange with him as he's dying, which Skeletor just stops hitting him long enough just to stand back and go, this is interesting. Let's see what happens here. But he is, Adam is responsible for the death of his dad. I mean, I don't think you can even argue otherwise. He is, his recklessness leads to his dad's death. I think that's an interesting development in a movie as quote-unquote tongue-in-cheek as this. Yeah, like a kid with a gun, as I was saying earlier. You see? Like gun kid. Yeah, exactly. I love that one's sticking with this.

45:25No, no, it is kind of what's kind of, you know, bubbling away under the whole thing, is this whole idea of, you know, what being a man meant to the previous generation, you know, the boomer generation, if you like. And I think there's a lot of Gen X men now who were kids that grew up at that time, who are now trying to be, I mean, I'm speaking from personal experience, to some degree, are trying to be a different kind of a father to their kids, the Gen Z kids. so it does seem to be like a kind of a sort of looking at the tension between the generations and what manhood means to them so Eternia is like the 80s, is like 80s masculinity and of course Earth is well, you know, 2020s, well that should be and that's the again, that's the thing, learning to become He-Man he is kind of like a 2020s guy who's suddenly given all the power, inverted commas of an 80s guy so yeah I thought that was really interesting to explore and of course that comes out in that scene that you mentioned Chris that moment where both the father and son kind of realised that neither of them really understood what they wanted the other to be in their lives lovely little grace notes grace notes in that fight scene which is awesome it's given you all the action that you could want but obviously at the start of the film the dad is very disappointed in Adam like he can't fight he's scrawny all the rest of it and to actually see him like oh he has the power he's fighting awesomely and that little smile that the dad has I think is really nice and it's that moment where he dies you mentioned that Chris like there's a lot of silliness in this film but it has just enough substance to make

47:10Chris Hewitt:stuff like that hit hard the silliness is parked for the duration of that speech and then Skeletor comes and goes I'll get you he-man and glows for a bit uh that stuff is really interesting the idea that uh adam is back on earth and he's pining for eternia i i could have done maybe with a little bit more uh of pining for his parents a little bit i could have been reminded that a little bit more so that the emotional impact of king randor's death had a greater impact for me well he has i mean that picture of himself with his parents and cringer for example that there's a lingering camera shot of at one point.

47:47There are those pictures among all the rest. I think the real father figure, or at least the second father figure, and maybe the more important one, is Man at Arms. And I think that relationship is the one where he's trying to work through a lot of these issues. I mean, Man at Arms has been the guy, essentially, they're somewhat comforting him because he understands, I think when Adam's a kid, he's the one who understands both sides of that equation. He understands that Adam finds it difficult, but he also understands why the king is doing what he's doing. He's the sort of missing link between them, and he can't quite get either of them to see the other's discomfort, you know.

48:25So I think in adulthood, that's also something that they're working through. But of course, he's also, by that point, got his own massive issues, which is he's never been beaten before and has dealt with it extraordinarily badly by going on a 15-year drunk. So, you know, he's also working back towards good fatherhood. His introductory scene is fantastic. I saved your grandma, I saved your grandma's kiss, I saved your grandmother's kiss. It was great. I loved that. Yeah, so are you saying that had Duncan been killed, Idris Elba, in case people aren't paying attention?

49:03Chris Hewitt:Sir Idris Elba. Sorry, Sir Duncan. Wait, that's a different show. No, that's a different show. Sir Idris Elba had he been killed then Adam would have been more upset than when his dad died or is his dad dying essentially like jazz in the first Transformers movie where Adam's like oh I'm sad but I'll shrug it off I'll get on with it it's uncomfortable but like I'm just saying that his you know his father he and his father have misunderstood each other their whole lives but he was still his dad like he cared about his dad he wanted his dad's good opinion no he did it's very clear oh Randor your sacrifice means so much to me Why do you have to go and be my guy?

49:39No, he does care. But I'm just saying that Duncan is the guy who has actually been there for him more than his father was. But the idea of competing models of masculinity is something that comes up a lot in this. And I do love that. Just his flatmate consistently watching rom-coms and then hiding them when he comes into the room. Which I think is foolish because Adam would 100 % be on board with watching 10 Things I Hate About You. He's a sensitive guy.

50:02Chris Hewitt:He works in HR. And then the fact that he works in HR as well, and the fact that he's good at it, but consistently distracted by swords. I can relate to that. We know a guy. We know a guy just like that. He should not work in HR, though, our guy. No, no. It makes the first act of the film sort of come full circle in a way. Like, I've seen some criticisms of this film that it starts slow before we get to Eternia and things really ramp up. But the whole HR, empathy as a superpower comes into play in the final act of the film in a really smart, clever way. So I enjoyed, it makes the first section of the film better for how it comes full circle.

50:51Chris Hewitt:I like that Adam is well first in conflict resolution and that is his first instinct, even as He-Man. His first instinct is not to punch Skeletor's head, clean off his shoulders, but to try and talk him down, Dan. Yeah, absolutely. And with Trapjaw as well, with that scene. Yeah. You know, he tries to go out and de-escalate the situation. Yeah, yeah. Which was really great. But that scene, of course, gives us the first transformation. Yes. I don't know about anyone. That was just really genuinely thrilling. I mean, I was quite surprised by how excited I got. I got very excited. I'm sure he's told you this, Dan, but Travis did a Q &A with me and he said he cried when he saw that.

51:32Chris Hewitt:When he was on set for the first time and Nicholas said the words, he cried. He had some tears rolled down his very manly cheeks. I didn't cry, but it was cool. Very, very cool. It was extremely cool. I had the best time. Oh, man. I wish that you were sat next to me. Oh, I'm sorry, man. I'm sorry. I'll be signing to my mate Andy. Oh, Andy. It was good. I didn't so much have the reaction to that. I really loved the fight scene before he killed his dad. I thought that was like, that was proper sort of superhero fight scene. Even like by the standards of superhero fights that we have seen, I think that was a really good one.

52:13It had so much wit to it. It had so many silly little notes, but also like a real sense of, I suddenly have all this power and I can do the thing. And now, and it's kind of all coming together for him. So it's in Skeletor's throne room. Yeah. And, you know. I've only seen the film once. So yeah, all the armed goons come in. And he takes basically all of them out. And then all of Skeletor is like, best buds. You know, the demon looking dude. Spycour. Sure. Carg. Yep. Triclops. I was about to say.

52:41Chris Hewitt:We're taking this for granted, but he could be making this up. Spycour, Carg, Triclops, and I'm trying to remember the other one. Okay. Goatman. Goatman. I was waiting for you, Dan. I thought, I can't believe he's forgotten Goatman. Goatman. But yeah, you know, there's fun stuff there. like the guy with the spikes on his head getting his head stuck in the wall and stuff like that. You know, he has some... And then a goon gets impaled on the spikes, which is great. I also loved He-Man using bad guys as weapons to hit other bad guys. Yes, I really like that. That's always fun to watch. Throwing bad guys at bad guys.

53:19And if he hadn't finished the fight by killing his dad, I think that would be a real win for him. Yeah. Yeah. Win some, lose some. I like how the three action scenes have different emotions underpinning them. So the first time he transforms and he has that action scene, there's a giddiness because he's the first time he's got all this power. But he's also a bit upset because he has that moment where he's like, I just ripped a guy's arm off and used it to kill all his friends. This is true. He's sitting there a little bit like, what has to happen? Anyway, sorry. He has to write himself up.

53:48Chris Hewitt:He has to report himself to HR. Rightly. I mean, that man has a disability and he has just purloined his prosthetic limb for his own ends. But even then, the doofy Adam prevails because in the ship chase, the aerial battle that follows afterwards, he's, for a large part of it, utterly useless, which I liked. He once again puts his car immediately into reverse instead of... Yeah. And then the fight scene that you're talking about, Helen, there's a rage underpinning it because he's trying to rescue his father. And then in the third and final action, he's fully come into his own. as the healthiest He-Man action scene that we get in a way.

54:29And he, I think because of that, is able to access certain skill sets and more powers and harlepunches, etc. So yeah, it felt very distinct, the emotions in each bell scene, which I think was smart. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that final fight against Skeletor, I love, like you were saying, that his instinct is to talk it out and to have a dialogue and to try and come to a compromise. and that this is just completely alien, literally and figuratively alien to Skeletor, who is just a one-dimensional bad guy. Again, I love this for the film. I love that we are, okay, we are giving our hero a bit more nuance.

55:09We're making him a little bit more, if you want to say woke or a bit more 2020s. We're trying to bring him up to date, but we are leaving everyone else exactly as they were and Skeletor is just bad. Literally, they have a line saying, why does he do the terrible things? he's got a skeleton for his face he's just mad that's all we need when Adam wants to have a face to face conversation he goes I don't have a face I mean again towards the end he has that line he just says I'm a villain that's all it is obviously that's from Shakespeare much to do about nothing Don John says pretty much exactly the same thing obviously that was what I was thinking of when you said that I thought so yeah

55:47Chris Hewitt:god damn Shakespeare whoever wrote that Shakespeare line oh don't you start with me I'm just pressing everyone's buttons today. Oh, Mercutio, your death is really upsetting me. Oh, well, over time. Jazz is dead. It's hard in Transformers. Thank you very much. I know, because they can't stop talking about him in the sequels. He's just like, you remember Jazz? Who's Jazz? Jazz, he was the guy that we hung out with. He came from Cybertron. He must remember Jazz. Doesn't ring a bell. Okay, doesn't. Okay. Oh, dear. Anyway, listen, before we talk about Skeletor and I know Amon wants to talk for 27 minutes uninterrupted about the Daniel Pemberton score you said 45 earlier now it's 27 unfortunately Amon we only have 23 minutes left in the studio I want to talk about some of the other characters in this so Dan you mentioned some of the evil warriors who are who were in this and who were summarily dispatched in that fight there are heroic warriors as well in this there's the likes of Fisto of course there's Mechaneck, there's Ram Man.

56:53Chris Hewitt:I loved seeing him. Moss Man. Moss Man, may he rest in peace. Or Mulch. Very, very sad. Oh, don't you fucking come for my Moss Man. All right. And, you know, was there anyone that you were upset not to see? There's no Manny Faces, for example. There's no Manny Faces, but I was never into Manny Faces. Slightly annoying. No Orko from Moss Man. I mean, I don't really care about Orko because... He did pop up at the end. He does pop up at the end. I'm sure we'll see more of him should there be any more of these movies. Or like his penis. I wasn't thinking any lower than the nipples. Oh, okay. I mean, because it's a PG-13.

57:33But I don't know. I would have liked to have seen Stratos. Okay. Remind me. Stratos was the bird man. He was the flying one. And this isn't an original thought. I saw someone say this. Seth Rogen would have made a great Stratos. if you put Seth Rogen's face next to the face of the toy it's a perfect match

57:56Chris Hewitt:I'll do that can I tell you my favourite piece of He-Man lore because I was reading up on some of my characters He-Lore Mecha-Neck a character who definitely wasn't backwards engineered from that pun definitely not canonically that was his name before Man-at-Arms made him a bionic neck well that's nominative determinism right there isn't it I just want that out there because it's really important to me that everyone knows that Mechaneck was already called Mechaneck and then got a Mechaneck this is putting Otto Octavius into the shade as far as I'm concerned guy with eight arms but of course they've only got these names because they're the names that Adam's given them now you see but not Mechaneck but not Mechaneck canonically but now in this world he could be like Brad he could be Brad or Jeff Although Skeletor is already Skeletor and Evil Lin is already Evil Lin.

58:53So that's a bit odd. That's right. But they come from a different realm.

58:57Chris Hewitt:So I don't know. Adam didn't idolize them in the same way that that works. But I don't know how that works. Their relationship was real kinky for a film for kids. And a bit disturbing, actually. Do you think? Yeah. He's quite abusive, too. Yeah, very much so. It's not just that she gets off on him being mean to her. He is actually physically abusive. I thought there was going to be an element of that, but then that would have been intensely, I think, problematic had she got off in some way on him literally scarring her or burning her with his touch. I thought that storyline was going to resolve with her double-crossing him, properly double-crossing him and trying to usurp his power.

59:36Chris Hewitt:It didn't go down that road. No, very much. If you stayed around for the post-credit scene, in fact, you saw her coming back to pick up his empty skull and resurrect him. Yeah, like in Shakespeare, like in Hamlet. Yeah. It's all Shakespeare, Dad. You know the bit of Shakespeare where Evelyn comes back and Evelyn picks up Yorick's skull and reanimates him from that. Yeah, I remember. Or in this universe, Yo-Rick. Oh, boy. Because he's called Rick and people go, and he's Yo-Yo. He feeds people with Yo-Yo's. Yeah, that relationship is kinky and fucked up. I needed a little bit more Evelyn. I did too.

1:00:12Chris Hewitt:There's a lot of tongue-in-cheekness even though he doesn't have a cheek or a tongue with Skeletor, but I thought that, weirdly enough, she was played a bit more straight than I thought. I mean, speaking from my position of privilege on this, Oh my God. I happen to know there actually was more evil in. I think there's some deleted scenes. Or are they done? There should be. Do you want to sit here, Dan? I hope. I hope they actually filmed them. But yes, yes, there was, in the script, there was more evil in. I am sure there was a four-hour assembly cut and even maybe a two-and-a-half-hour-long director's cut at some point where you had loads of grace notes for a lot of these characters, but they had to go, I think.

1:00:56I definitely felt like we could have done some more Evelyn. I'm not surprised to hear that there's probably something to leave the scenes. I would say it was similar for Teela. Well, I like the amount of Teela we got, but I was surprised that they slow-played the... Romance? And I'm thinking, again, maybe they're saving that for potential sequels.

1:01:17Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I think that's, well, we'll get to that in a second. But yeah, I think that's probably absolutely on the money. Maybe it would have slowed the movie down as well. You want to stretch out the Ross and Rachel-ness of it all rather than succumbing to that. And then where do you go from that? And also you've got the complication in future movies, should they get there, of her being Duncan's kid. so it could be interesting I thought Camila Mendes was great in this she's so capable at times in the first half of the movie I was like why is this not her movie why are we following the dorky guy instead of this really capable Helen am I right sister yes high five let's go woo yeah let's go spice up your life it's the Ant-Man and the Wasp problem isn't it like she's so obviously more capable than he is in the first film and yet no one will give her the sword or whatever.

1:02:13I do feel like here...

1:02:14Chris Hewitt:And look what happened when they did two of the greatest movies in the MCU. Okay. I do feel like we could have had maybe one more scene or half scene or just like a little moment with young Adam being kind or resolving conflict or something active. I feel like we see that he is small and, you know, doing his best and weak. But we don't necessarily see that moment of empathy, that moment of like reaching out to others, you know, that sort of little Steve standing up to bullies kind of moment that I think would have kind of maybe explained better why the sword chooses him. Because Tila is obviously more capable, but the idea is that he has understood bullying in a way that she has not, presumably.

1:02:59But we don't see that extra little bit of active goodness on his part as a kid. I as a kid I mean I would even say as a man you could have done that as a man like one of my few criticisms of this film is for the most part they get the tone right but that scene where Adam has come back to Eternia and Skeletor and his forces go looking for him and Teela and man at arms it's a little bit awkward when it goes from joking with with Adam and Tila and Man-at-Arms, to people of Eternia dying from gunfire, back to joke with Adam, Tila, Man-at-Arms, and the moment of empathy you're talking about, Helen, I think we could have nestled that in in that sequence.

1:03:50That's just action movie standard, though. I mean, you know, I've just watched hundreds of people die. Let's have a laugh.

1:03:58Chris Hewitt:I agree. I think that one more scene of him being in some way worthy of the power would have been good. Because as it is, obviously the sword isn't necessarily the thing. He is imbued with the power anyway, as it turns out. But why? And it's because he's the lead of the movie. And the script doesn't really depict the worthiness for me as ably as, say, Captain America. Or Thor. There's the moment with the sorceress where she explains why he is, She wants him to be the champion of Eternia. Yeah. And what makes him different from all the previous champions of Eternia. Yeah. And why that's valuable.

1:04:42Yeah. I suppose that's kind of doing that. Not a bad scene, but that is something you more want to feel than have it explained to you. Oh, yeah. Ideally. But I did feel it, to be honest. And your friend Andy? I don't know. I hadn't discussed that part. All right. Okay. He just liked the bit where he turned into He-Man. So awesome. And actually, just before we move on to Deep Hems, I do really just want to kind of celebrate the fact that this film was so faithful to the original toys and to that original cartoon. And we touched on it earlier, like it not going grimdark or anything. It is colourful, it is bright.

1:05:26They've made things look as much like they could have looked like the toys and still be pretty cool. You know, like the sword of power looks just like it did. in the toy. The Snake Mountain looks just like it did in the cartoon. And they've kind of like, I thought they'd just done a really good job of bringing, like I said earlier, sort of bringing the nostalgia of the original action figures and everything. And still kind of making it cool. So, you know, that was a real treat as someone who played with these toys as a kid.

1:05:58Chris Hewitt:And the colors pop, of course. This movie, I would say, obviously owes a debt to Flash Gordon. there's a bit of Highlander in there as well of course literally yeah we'll get on to the score in a second I'm on hang on we've probably you can do your seven minute filibuster in a second but it also I think it was a huge step to Thor Ragnarok do you agree? I mean it's Thor Ragnarok it's Guardians of the Galaxy it's Dungeons and Dragons on or Among Thieves it's all what a movie all these movies I love where are you know a bunch of weirdos get together and save the day and there's laughs along the way.

1:06:34But also I think its tone is very Thor Ragnarok-y.

1:06:38Chris Hewitt:It's trying and mostly succeeding, I would say, in that very, very glib meta touch that Thor Ragnarok really nailed. And for a lot of people, Thor Love and Thunder did not. And, you know, it's an interesting tone to try and to take. You know, that sort of very arch tone, very knowing tone. We know what we're doing here. Yeah. tone yeah fisting goblins you know devil's anus yeah all that stuff the taika at his best can really nail should we talk about the music can we talk about the music come on Chris let's talk about the music music music there's so much else should we talk about the mise-en-scene shall we talk about the editing should we talk about the cinematography music music there's something else what else could we talk about man I guess we could talk about where they might go in the future I I've got an idea oh yeah Should we talk about the music?

1:07:33Chris Hewitt:Yes! Helen and Dan, what did you guys think about the music? And feel free to talk for as long as you possibly want. I think I've got at least seven minutes. I can talk for seven minutes about how good the usage of Boys Don't Cry by The Cure was. I really like that, genuinely. That was fun. I did think some of the song choices were a little on the nose. I Got the Power. I Got the Power was funny. when it was followed by Four Non Blondes. And it was just for that one line of what's going on. I didn't think that worked as well. Is that because there was a meme, a Skeletor meme or something with Four Non Blondes?

1:08:11Chris Hewitt:Was there? I believe there was. Okay. Anyway, I just thought the timing of it didn't work perfectly. And I mean, I simultaneously love that they went for the Highlander. Princes of the Universe. Princes of the Universe. Yeah, Highlander. Because how could you not? but at the same time I thought that was cheeky as fuck and actually you should have had the courage of your own convictions that you didn't need it but also on the other hand on the other other other hand the Brian May guitar felt right all through the score I loved that and the darkness doing the end credits tune which was really good but I just want to come back to Boys Don't Cry come on how good was that that was cool it starts off as a piano piece and then it goes into the original and then it goes into a whole other version of it and it was just and this is why Daniel Pemberton yeah here he comes he's a legend he's so good yeah he is so good go Amon oh I love the score so so much um and right from the beginning like it did that thing which I wish more movies did and just had the first 30 seconds or so as the opening credits are doing their thing just the music to help the music establish that relationship with the audience right from the off and it's catchy and my head was bopping before Adam even went into his opening monologue.

1:09:31That was just great. And, you know, Helen and Dan have already touched on it, but just the heavy metal vibes work so well for the score. And it is so catchy. I told Helen, as soon as the movie ended, I'm going to have this on repeat for the rest of the week. When I tell you that I have listened to that Eternia track at least 50 times since the movie ended, I am not exaggerating one bit. I'm on Spotify Unwrapped.

1:09:56Chris Hewitt:going to be just that song. Literally, it will. And I will have no regrets. It won't be, because you've also got the Daniel Pemberton score from Project Hail Mary, so he is just killing it. To be fair, this kicked that ass. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We need to slow down. Easily. Okay, time out then. I'm endlessly impressed, not just because he comes out with this level of quality regularly, but the three films that he scored this year have been completely different to one another. He had Project Hail Mary as we mentioned this you also did the score for the drama and that was a very minimalist score which is not typical not typically what he does but it really worked for the movie I'm just I'm honestly impressed with what he comes out with and any any film that he's attached to immediately has my interest and how good was the bit where it finally went you know we got the build up and we got the original theme music from the car scene that was great done in in the style of everything and he was just I was just sitting there just like yeah just buzzing away Do they deploy it only at the end, or is it deployed earlier on?

1:10:59Chris Hewitt:Only at the end. Yeah. No, I don't even think there might be some very tiny hints of it. Just a note or two. He just kind of, I think he just drops in a little bit. But it certainly doesn't go full E-Man until the end. I have the power to pick up a flower. It took me an hour and a half. Okay. Is that the lyrics? I have the power to pick up a flower. It took me an hour and a half. Those are maybe the lyrics that you sang in school rather than being the official lyrics. With his friend Andy. With his friend? I didn't go to school with Andy. He went to the thick kid's school. Oh. I don't think we'd say that.

1:11:38What? It was the 80s. The thickos. Wow.

1:11:42Chris Hewitt:It was toxic. It was fine. Andy's done well. He's done well to find a friend as good as you, Dan. Yep. As smart as you. He must look up to you. Yep. Wow. Well, I mean, Dan said he was thick and then that he chose Dan as a friend. Yeah, but Andy doesn't understand that that's an insult because he's so thick. Yeah, T-H-I-C-C thick. Okay, he's thick and swole, which is saying. Good sake. Which brings us back to Masters of the Universe. It's like Dan's other school was full of people who were hench. That's why we didn't mess with him. We ran away from him in the street. Yeah, because Dan is tiny, like a little tiny man.

1:12:22Chris Hewitt:Like a little action figure. Like a little Prince Adam. Like the Masters of the Universe toys that they have out now, which the other Masters of the Universe toys from the 80s would eat. Right. For sustenance. Like a light snack. Right. It's like when John Cena said, I look like Mark Wahlberg. Mark Wahlberg. That kind of thing. Yeah, it's exactly that. Speaking of toys, the toys of Skeletor in the modern costumes, they're going to be fun. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Him in the gym. Amazing. I love that. We're in the Nike. Nike, sorry, it's pronounced Nike, not Nike. In case you don't know, Travis Knight's dad, Phil Knight, is the founder of Nike.

1:13:02Chris Hewitt:So, you know, rich dude. Can I just check something, right? Yeah. When that all started happening, did anyone think, oh, wait a minute, all the Eternia stuff wasn't real? Did anyone think that it was a kind of a, almost a fake out of a fake out? No, I thought it was real, but I'm surprised by, how little time they actually spend on Earth, comparatively speaking. I thought it was going to be a bit more like the 1987 movie, which was almost entirely on Earth, again, for budgetary reasons. I love that they had his mum say, send him to my home. And so she opens a portal to Earth, and that's never addressed again.

1:13:37Nothing more about why his mum might be from Earth. She's an astronaut. Sure, you know that. She was an astronaut. She ended up on Eternia. King Randall fell in love with her. It's a beautiful story. I'm sure it is. I'm just saying.

1:13:48Chris Hewitt:Who are his parents on Earth? is it like a Clark Kent they say he grew up in Foster County okay I also really like the Dolph Lundgren cameo oh yeah that's cute do you like that I know that some people who aren't in this room didn't like it really yeah I'm not going to name them I'm not going to name them they thought it was I'm not going to name them but they thought it was a bit on the nose and and a bit too meta you know with the do you have any advice for the new guy I liked it. I like Dolph. He's having a good cameo year. Yeah, I thought it was nice because I thought it felt like it was just...

1:14:28It felt like that bit where Arnie passes the rock going into the club in Welcome to the Jungle and goes, have fun. It felt like that, but slightly more useful. It just about made sense in context, and I like that he then repeats that line later. So there was a throwback to it. It wasn't just a totally throwaway line. I thought it was nice. yeah

1:14:51Chris Hewitt:and it means something to us yes I think there's a generation of moviegoers who'll be watching this movie who have no idea who Dolph Lundgren is or certainly no idea that Dolph Lundgren played Adam in the Masters of the Universe movie in 1987 but for us we got a little bit of a kick out of it which was nice I would have liked Chelsea Field who played Tila in the first movie as well to be in this or Courtney Cox or Courtney Cox of course yes absolutely that would have been amazing she'll be there for you. Anyway, one last thing before we wrap this bad boy up. We talked a little bit already about sequels.

1:15:26Chris Hewitt:Now we should say we are recording this on the day it comes out in the cinemas over here in the UK, in the States there's a couple of days to go. We don't know how this is going to do at the box office. The tracking is fairly soft. Not a huge opening weekend is expected. Now, does that mean that a sequel is in jeopardy or is this a movie that they're going to wait and see what happens when it hits Prime Video, which it will do in a couple months' time. Maybe even sooner than that. It's an Amazon MGM film, so it will hit Prime Video at some point. Are you optimistic about the prospects of a sequel, or is this very much one and done?

1:16:03I mean, it's primed. Sorry, no pun intended. It's primed for a sequel. Or a spin-off, possibly. Yeah. I mean, it's all there. And I would love to see one, but I'm still waiting for my Dungeons & Dragons on a Among Thieves sequel, and I don't think that's going to come and if that's not going to come then it makes me sort of feel a little bit worried about this too. But, I mean, let's see. Let's see, eh? I mean, you know, okay, if the tracking's a bit soft but you never know. There was surprises. I don't know how it's tracking now. And there might be word of mouth on this. Here in London, it's been on a lot of buses.

1:16:44The fact that there are the cartoons out there that there's a generation of kids who have watched those. Hopefully we'll get some people along to cinemas. I had a bit of a debate with the husband about whether this is a bit too scary for smaller children. You know, there's Mossman being mulched. There's the bit where Adam himself gets stabbed, which I haven't talked about, is quite violent, quite disturbing. So there might be bits that are going to upset the small kids, but I really do think that the, you know, sort of 8 to 12 contingent are going to love this. and so I hope that they I hope that they all find it and get the chance

1:17:18Chris Hewitt:yeah I've just looked it up it's tracking for a 25 to 30 million dollar opening which yes I think that sums it up really that is not sequel worthy really it might hit big when it hits prime video people might love it it might be like an obsession thing and it goes up week after week I don't think that's going to happen I'd be surprised if this thing gets even close to 100 million at the box office sadly because I'd like to see the sequel you know Dan I'm sure you know way more than I do but Travis Knight's been talking about there was a big Merman versus He-Man sequence that had to be cut out because it was incredibly expensive and he'd love to do that in the sequel he has ideas for what he'd like to do with Skeletor and his family tree and all sorts of stuff and of course She-Ra turns up at the end of this movie played by someone somebody Travis Knight won't say who it is I think that's because they just like the first Sherlock Holmes Guy Ritchie movie when Moriarty is heard at the end of that it was just a voice right and they left their options open for casting him for the sequel and of course got Jared Harris so Jared Harris as She-Ra would be interesting he really can play anything but yeah I don't know there's lots of fertile ground I think here for a sequel to this but Heart of Hearts I get this feeling that this is it it would be a real big shame if that is the case because this is so much fun.

1:18:45It just reminds me of the same thing that happened with Travis Knight and Bumblebee. Bumblebee, yeah. Because that film was great and I know that Travis Knight had plans for an Optimus Prime

1:18:55Chris Hewitt:solo movie on Cybertron, which is exactly what I've been wanting and praying for. We didn't get it. It's very disappointing. Yeah, I hear that Pemberton would have done the score with Hans Zimmer. Yeah, I hear it. That's why I hear it. Isn't that right, Dan? Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. Why are you having so damn it? There would have been a Batman cameo. animated Batman as well oh my god and then jazz would have come back to life yeah amazing you're all mean people well we are villains anyway on that note I think that is it for this Masters of the Universe a spoiler special fingers crossed to be a Masters of the Universe 2 Dan in particular is very keen for that she can write the art of the Masters of the Universe 2 to art to masters yeah in a few years time if you're listening to this other people are available to write those books I'm just going to say Helen is a published author yep you can write these books as well she can do the She-Ra book there we go oh wow you sexist pig Helen can be my princess of power oh my god Dan you're doubling down on it don't do this man it's a compliment he's Gen X you know he can't help it it's true I don't see what Andy sees in you I really don't I don't know why he hangs around with you because I play Dungeons and Dragons with him oh yeah that's fair Jonathan Jonathan should we spoil that film as well let's do it let's do it again I love it so much yeah such a good film make a sequel to that movie if you're in a position of power to do that alright that's it bye Iman good journey thank you Iman thank you goodbye Dan this podcast I think we've all learned that Chris is a very hairy man.

1:20:46Okay.

1:20:47Chris Hewitt:Thanks, Dan. Thank you. It's goodbye to Helen. Toodaloo. And it's goodbye to me. I am actually genuinely astonished that we have talked about this movie for, let me see, about an hour now, and not one of us, not one of us, not even me, has made a fisting joke. We've been so strong. We have grown as people. And I'm proud of that. Give them head, Raymond. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.