Mount Rushmore episode 2: Nolan, No Hair

0:14Chris Hewitt:Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to the second episode of the show that I'm calling The Mount slash Mount Rushmore. Anyway, it's a Mount Rushmore show basically, in which I get together with a couple of Empire colleagues and we discuss some topics that you guys have sent in to me via Instagram and we put some choices up there on our very own Mount Rushmore, just like the big old mountain over there in America. The two colleagues of such lethal cunning who are joining me today to do that are James Dyer. Hello. Hello. And Amon Warman. Hello. How are you both? Good. Are you excited about this?

0:51Chris Hewitt:I am. Nervous? Because you don't know what the topics are? I was born ready for anything, Chris Hewitt. Amon can Google anything within seconds.

1:04Chris Hewitt:How are you, Jimbo? You good? I'm good. I always approach Mount Rushmore with a certain degree of consternation because obviously I have no idea which way it's going to go. Where would you approach it from? Would you approach it from the north? I mean, I would suggest not from the top because I don't think the view would be good just looking down at the top of people's nose. Right. I think you kind of, you need to, but then equally you don't want to be at the very bottom because then you're just staring up Lincoln's nose. So from a distance would be mine. From a distance. Right, yeah. All right, so there's only three of us this time around.

1:30Chris Hewitt:So how we're going to do it is very, very simple. There are usually four massive faces there on Mount Rushmore. So we're each going to, whatever topic it is, we're going to tackle a couple of topics in this show. Whatever topic we choose, we're all going to get one choice each. Yes. And then at the end, we have to have a collective choice. so we all agree on and yes democracy rules majority wins so two votes will outstrip one that's how it works that's maths so do you want to know what those topics are? yes please so do I because I have no fucking idea so I asked Instagram for many many topics and Instagram has replied with many many wonderful topics so I'm just seeing what it made me laugh alright at lc.chambers surely you have to do a Nolan one we do have to do a Nolan one and don't call me Shirley alright so a Chris Nolan Mount Rushmore can be interpreted in so many ways of course are we choosing films are we choosing characters what are we choosing what do you think we should choose this is the first choice we have to make I feel like we should do a ranking of Nolan films We've just done that on the Odyssey Sport especially.

2:47Chris Hewitt:We're outside. Well, I wasn't here. Banging on the glass. Yeah, that's true. I wasn't available. Odyssey would not be, I don't think, in my top five. Oh. Was it in yourism one? I can't remember. It was in my top five. Okay. And it was Helen's top one. Yeah, but that's deranged. It's just actively one. Not even Chris Nolan would have it in his top one. No, I mean, he genuinely wouldn't. No. I think he would. I think he might. What came out in number one? Well, we didn't quite do it that way. We just went past, we went through. Unorthodox ranking when you didn't rank. Well, we just listed our films.

3:18Yeah. Okay. We could do Nolan characters. I think that could be interesting. Nolan characters. Nolan characters. Gee, I wonder who Amon's going to choose. Who could it be, Amon? I wonder who you'll choose.

3:30Chris Hewitt:Oh, it's a tough one. Maybe I'll run with Lockwood. All right, Amon, let's start with you. And who would you choose as your character on your Chris Nolan Mount Rushmore? And remember, Amon, this is very important. And swear to me! Look, after much deliberation... I've decided not to endorse your theme park. And much thought, I've chosen to go with Batman. Really? I know. Okay. Shocking everyone, I know. But that's my choice. Okay. So this is the Christian Bale Batman? That is correct. Okay. From which movie? Ooh. Things just got interesting. You went full Giamatti there. Paul Giamatti would have been a great Nolan Penguin, by the way.

4:21Chris Hewitt:Yeah, he would. He genuinely would. Yeah. You know what? You can't put Paul Giamatti Penguin, a character that doesn't exist, off of the Mount Rushmore. I'm sorry. I do have to have some rules. It would be the Batman from Batman Begins. The Batman from Batman Begins? Yes. You got mad about me doing this before, but this is totally right. Okay, go on. Oh God, we're not having this conversation again. We might. If we're having a conversation about Batman killing, I'm just going to fucking play the old version. I might just kill him on in the name of Batman. That could work. We're not having a conversation about that.

4:56But my distinction that I make is that Batman Begins is the best Batman film in the Nolan trilogy. But The Dark Knight is the best Nolan film in the Nolan trilogy. I will raise you and say that Batman Begins is the best Bruce Wayne film in the Batman trilogy. but not the best Batman film.

5:14Chris Hewitt:I will raise you one better and say that The Dark Knight Rises is the best Lucius Fox film in the Nolan trilogy. No, it's not. It's actually The Dark Knight. But anyway. But okay. That's an interesting distinction. May I say it's Batman shit insane? But I like it. I like that you've gone out there. All right, so you're putting Christian Bale as Batman from Batman Begins when he's just a little bat baby. up on Mount Rushmore. Could I offer the counter-argument that Batman isn't even the best character in the Batman films that Nolan's done? Because I would say, if you were picking a character, it would have to be Heath Ledger's Joker.

5:54I'm not sure. I'd fully agree with that. Because the Batman in Batman Begins, the focus that Bruce Wayne has, the journey of that character, I think is awesome. And Heath Ledger's performance as the Joker is incredible. But, yeah, I... weirdly but weirdly what you say there because this is why I say Batman Begins is a great Bruce Wayne film I love Batman Begins up until the burning down of the mansion and after that point I thought the film falls off a cliff I think before that moment it is a masterpiece and after that why do we fall off a cliff Master Bruce? exactly some people just want to watch the mansion burn I love all the stuff when it's Bruce Wayne and Ra's al Ghul on the mountain the training I think all that stuff is masterful but I do think it loses its way and I think that's why I have a mixed relationship with Batman Begins the weird is why I actually prefer The Dark Knight Rises to Batman Begins because The Dark Knight Rises does not have the high highs that Batman Begins has but it is more consistent that is I think The Dark Knight Rises is easily the weakest of the three films see say that again it will be very painful

7:07Chris Hewitt:alright Jimbo who are you choosing I'm not going to pick anyone from the Batman films, much as I would like to just troll them on by just picking someone random, I'm going to pick Cooper from Interstellar. Cooper. Cooper. I'm going to pick Coop. Okay. I thought it was from Super Mario Galaxy. It's Bowser, yes. He's after your coins and he's going to get them. No, it would be Coop. I just think, and I said this in my incredibly bloated and overlong review of Interstellar when I wrote it years ago, like Christopher Nolan is historically generally held correctly to be quite a cold filmmaker Odyssey is a case in point an emotionally distant filmmaker and Interstellar I think stands alone as a film that has so much heart and so much emotion in it and the scene it is the scene from that film when Cooper comes back from the water planet and he watches the video messages from Murph who's now all grown up and you know as famously he did one take, he hadn't prepared for it he hadn't watched a video before and he just reacted to it.

8:10That... It's McConaughey. McConaughey. Yeah, Matthew McConaughey. It destroyed me in the cinema and I just thought the emotional punch of that scene is extraordinary. And I love the journey that that character goes on. And look, you may or may not understand the ending of Interstellar. God knows it took me a while. But the journey that character goes on that brings him full circle, he is in many ways the architect of all his own pain. It's wild. And I just think there's something magical about that character's journey. So I would put Coop up on there in tears, looking devastated. It would be a downer for Taurus.

8:43I'm not sure that it would help that,

8:44Chris Hewitt:but that would encapsulate the moment for me. Oh, wow. Okay. That's a very good choice. I like that choice. Oh, I don't know. This is so tough. There's so many great characters from Chris Nolan movies. Do you go from, you know, Al Pacino in Insomnia to Barry Keoghan's George in Dunkirk who falls down a set of stairs? I don't know this is genuinely really really tough I really like In Inception yes Cobb who? Cobb no see and this is an interesting Inception is correctly the best film Nolan has ever done but you just presented a statement yes and then agreed with yourself I 100 % endorse my own statement there.

9:36It is Nolan's best film, and if it wasn't at the top of your ranking... Who are you agreeing with when you said correctly? Correctly. It is his best film, but I don't think it has the standout characters. I think it's the concept and the execution of the film rather than the characters that sell that one.

9:51Chris Hewitt:I'm honest, there's someone else in the room that we can see. Yes, James, you are absolutely right. I completely agree with you. Oh, thank you, James. See, I think... It's Drex. This may diminish my argument somewhat, right? Because I actually can't remember this character's name. That's a good start. That might undermine me somewhat. But Tom Hardy's character is just cool. You mustn't be afraid to dream a little digger dog. He's got a cool line and he looks slick and he's got a suit. Oh, so memorable. What's his name from Inception? Oh, that's great. No. Love him. Who can forget? I'm trying to remember his name.

10:29Chris Hewitt:And his name is... His name is Tom Hardy. his name is Tom Hardy his name is it's something like it's Ames it's like my name but without the J it's not Ames it is or Eames perhaps you pronounce it Eames Eames Ames oh no I don't like that at all no you changed your mind now yeah Joseph Gordon-Levitt you could call him Gary I mean I think I should I think we should I think we should go for a cane right so my favorite Nolan movie is The Prestige so yeah Hugh Jackman who could pick forget the character that Hugh Jackman plays in The Prestige. I don't... Oh, come on. Oh, this is... This is going badly.

11:10Chris Hewitt:It's not going well. This is going badly. It's not going well. It's Anjir, isn't it? Anjir, yeah. I can't remember the names of any Christopher Nolan character. Who does Matt Damon play in The Odyssey? It's like Steve something on the tip of my tongue. Yeah, Mike. At least if you're struggling to remember the name of the protagonist in Tenet, it's the protagonist. That's quite useful. I do like Robert Pattinson in that movie. Again, he's quite loose. He's quite cool. But can I remember what he's called? No. This might be telling about Nolan's character. Ah, dear. Yes, I think. I think I'm going to go for the Joker.

11:58Chris Hewitt:I was going to save him for the collective. and I'm just like you know what I can remember his name so I'm good with that the Joker from the Dark Knight alright collectively we now have to choose a Chris Nolan character maybe we can remember his name or her name but Chris Nolan so this one was certainly going to be a bloke we would remember it if it were tattooed on our bodies somewhere so I'm saying Leonard might be a good show that Leonard Shelby see not only do I remember his name I remember his full name from what was it called from Memento of course that's a good one you'd have Guy Pearce up there I will say I will say and Chris Nolan's heroes and even villains tend to be blokes he does get a lot of flack for underwritten female characters if Helen were here she would be banging on about dead wives she would is there a a a lady Nolan There's some recency bias with this, but Samadha Morton's Cersei in The Odyssey Oh, that's a good one.

13:08Is... Might be the best female character that Nolan has written and directed. Is it the best female character, or is it just an incredibly good, well-executed scene that she is in? I don't know that Cersei has an incredible amount of character depth in that film. Have you ever read the novel Cersei, which gives you an incredible amount? depth into that character. That's fascinating. Really interesting character from mythology. The spirit of Helen has taken over James. I don't think it's true. I do feel like I'm channeling Helen a little bit. But I don't think she has an awful lot of characters.

13:40It's just Samantha Morton does an extraordinary amount with what she has. So I think that's more Morton, less Cersei.

13:46Chris Hewitt:Might I also say something? You may. If we're looking at Mount Rushmore, you want icons, right? Don't you? So, Batman's up there, Joker's up there Matthew McConaughey scored in a few is up there and Guy Pearce in that movie with his dyed blonde peroxide hair is I would say pretty damned iconic as well so maybe we do stick him on there with apologies to Circe but also you know hey Chris Nolan write better roles for women yeah very true yeah But that's a solid four, I think. That's a solid four. All right. So there we go. Look at that. The Mount Rushmore of Chris... I'm actually looking to see if it's there.

14:36Chris Hewitt:The Mount Rushmore of Chris Nolan characters. Batman from Batman Begins. Joker from Joker Begins. We have Murph from Coop. No, we have Murph. Curve. No, we have Coop. I can't remember. I can't remember. Coop from Interstellar.

14:53Chris Hewitt:Oh, my God. We have Coop from Interstellar, and then we have Leonard Shelby from Memento. All right, good stuff. Should we move on and have another topic? This one has made me laugh every time I've looked at it because it's someone called 700 who's literally just said bald actors. Bald actors. James, for reasons I cannot think of, lead us off on this one, please. Who would be your choice? I mean, the mighty Thanos would, of course, be up there with his purple dome. He's not an actor. How dare you? It's the greatest role of a lifetime. No, of course. Bald actors. Josh Brolin has a phenomenal head of hair.

15:34Phenomenal head of hair. He is, of course, excluded.

15:35Chris Hewitt:Have you ever touched his hair? Josh Brolin's hair? Yeah. I'm sure he would let you. I've never ruffled his locks. Yeah? Yeah, he might be, but no, he's never offered me the opportunity. Bald, I mean, the greatest of our bald thespians is Sir Patrick Stewart. Yeah. I think we can all agree there is no other. um okay justify yourself he's Sir Patrick Stewart okay done no I mean look mainly because like Patrick Stewart and much like myself went bald in his younger years right so he has owned that dome of his but the thing with Patrick Stewart is like like bald people such as myself we lean into the baldness to kind of fend off the glances by shaving our heads completely like you know we will not show you the patterning of our baldness.

16:22We will just give you the dome. Patrick Stewart was like, no, no, no, no. I'm going to rock what is now known as the full Picard, where he keeps the completely grey back and sides and fucking owns it. Half moon. I'm not going to lie. That is a difficult thing to own. It really is. And he does it with aplomb. He made bald sexy. He did. Look, I'm not throwing shade at the likes of Mitch Pileggi, who also did a good job with that in the X-Files, but I just think no one has ever done that quite like Patrick Stewart. And obviously, I doff my hat to the likes of Terry Nutkins who just went absolutely all out and went for the hippie long Picard never do that never do that but no I think no one has ever looked as good with that particular back and sides than Sir Patrick Stewart

17:07Chris Hewitt:Sir Patrick Stewart is James' choice for bald actor Amon for reasons I can't even begin to think of I'm coming to you second on this not very often I'm the hairiest person in the room but I'm luxuriating it right now. Who's your choice? You know, the first person that came to my mind when you said bald actors was actually Delroy Lindo. Delroy Lindo? He does do it well. Is he fully bald or does he just choose to shave his head? Because I think there's an important distinction to be made there. He has not shared with me his hair. You've never ruffled his hair? I bet so. I can't begin to answer that.

17:48Chris Hewitt:Have you ever ruffled an actor's hair? No, it's frowned upon in interviews. I don't know that I have. This has gone down a weird path. It has. And then I was like, another actor came to mind. Yeah. J.K. Simmons. Because I was thinking of Whiplash. And there are times in that performance in Whiplash where you can sort of see the vein popping out of his head. Oh, yeah. I do think that him being bold and that actually added to the presence that his character gives you when he walks into a room, when he's berating his musicians. So between those two, I'm going to go with J.K. Simmons. J.K. Simmons.

18:36I think we need to think about it in a slightly different way. And it's like, not just, are you good bald? But would you look like a bellend with hair? So there are, no, genuinely, there are some people who you're like, you're rocking the bald look, but if you had hair, what the fuck, you'd look ridiculous. And I put it to you that Jason Statham is one such. In terms of monuments to cranial architecture, he has absolutely, we've watched as the sides of his hairline have receded at a rate of knots, but he has absolutely embraced it, and to the point where if he had hair, he would just look wrong.

19:08Whereas Bruce Willis, although again, brilliant bald, even when he still had a little bit of hair and die hard, it actually suited him like he looked moonlighting like he looked good with hair but I put it to you that Statham would never look good with hair I disagree a little dusting a little dusting sure but not like no more than a centimetre

19:26Chris Hewitt:yeah like he had he had a little bit of hair when he burst onto the scene in lock stock and snatch he wasn't fully bald in those movies not entirely but he when he has worn wigs in movies before things like Revolver and it hasn't you're actually right it hasn't it hasn't looked great an actor I think who is bald, who looks really good in wigs, is Mark Strong. Yeah, he does. He's got good wig action. And he's done it a lot as well. Whereas Corey Stoll, for example, does not look good in wigs. That is true. That is absolutely true. Something you told me on the other, the other thing we did, is sticking with me.

20:03Okay. For the other choice that I have in my mind. Because you said we're talking, we're talking about icons here.

20:09Chris Hewitt:Icons, yep. Vin Diesel. Vin Diesel. He is upsetting with hair. Genuinely upsetting. Ben Diesel would be an iconic choice. I mean, the question was just simply bald actors, not people who are upsetting with hair. But I like it. It's a distinction. You know who else? Stanley Tucci. Oh, goodness. I don't need to see the Tucci with hair. No, the Tucci is good with hair. The Tucci has hair when he's Abraham Erskine in Captain America, The First Avenger. And I think if he were rocking a big old baldy, I don't think that he would have the same sympathy for you and he's also got a he's bald he's not bald he's her suit in the core but yes generally that's your go-to those are my two I'll be doing a Tucci Mount Rushmore yeah those are those are two what's a good Delroyo Linda film the core it is a good Delroyo he's got a very good death scene he really has a great death scene in fact so does the Tucci spoilers for the core by the way but But also, I don't think it's like a shock.

21:13Chris Hewitt:I don't think if you sat down to watch the core, you'd be going, well, Stanley Tucci's making it out of this movie. You know, Aaron Eckhart's going to walk out of the movie, and so is Hilary Swank. She's not that bad. Have we mentioned Paul Giamatti? Paul Giamatti. See, is he fully bald? He's got curly back and sides, hasn't he? Was he fully bald in the Holdovers? It's a good question. No, he's balding in the Holdovers. Because there's a distinction between bald and balding. Yes. So Gene Hackman was perpetually balding throughout his career. He had like a smattering of hair on his head, and he made it look good.

21:52Chris Hewitt:He made it work. He did. Absolutely. I mean, Christ, this is tough. It really is. Sean Connery. Sean motherfucking Connery. Yeah, but he looks good with hair, though. Yeah, in The Rock, he's got a rug on his head, and it looks great. Well, as James Bond, They didn't let him walk around with a shiny dome as James Bond. Maybe they should have done. Maybe they should have done, yes. In Sardoz, for example, he's a hairy guy. You see him in that sort of mankini in Sardoz. He's got that long ponytail wig on. I had that once. But all the other hair on Sean Connery in that movie is 100 % real. Oh, sorry.

22:30I wondered where that was going, and then it was going literally exactly where I thought it was going. Have you ever ruffled Sean Connery's pubes? I was never given the opportunity to... I don't know if that was the next thing coming out of your mouth. Okay, Sean Connery's pews were never coming out of Chris's mouth. I know he's interviewed him a couple of times, but they were never that close. Just once. Oh, gosh. Sam Jackson, of course, came to fame by late in life. And he already had these sort of round, kind of moon-shaped pate when we first saw him. Yes. He never had a full head of hair. Oh, this is so tough.

23:03But he rocked a Jericho wig.

23:05Chris Hewitt:He did. Yeah. He rocked it very well. and you know Nick Fury's bald oh this is so fucking tough and we haven't gone to the collective yet because I thought this was a slam dunk I was just going to say Jason Statham and then we would do Bruce Willis for the collective but now Hackman's entered the chat no one's mentioned The Rock and The Rock is an interesting one because I think he went through a quite good hair phase but he definitely went through a very bad hair phase as well So it depends on when you catch him. I think his final form, the baldness, is definitely the best. I think baldness with sideburns is the Vox's coolest look.