Nobody 2 ft. Timo Tjahjanto

0:15Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to the latest in our series of spoiler special podcasts and this one is somewhat belated but nevertheless it is dedicated to the second film in the Nobody franchise, Nobody 2, the Bob Odenkirk action franchise, which sees him return as Hutch Mantle once again and kick all kinds of ass whilst on vacation, or if you're in Britain, kick all kinds of arse whilst on holiday. And joining me to discuss this over the next 45 minutes or so are two colleagues of such lethal cunning, but hopefully that's as far as the lethality extends. Amon Warman is here. Hello. We'll see how we go.

0:52We'll see how we go. How would you take me out, Amon? What would you do? You've thought about this. Let's be honest. One of the really cool things about Hutch is that he will take anything in this vicinity and turn it into a deadly weapon. So I was looking around. Looking around the room. You would take Liam. You were fingering my pen a minute ago. Yes, I was. Making your plan. Yes, I was. So I'd take the pen and I'd just stab you with it a lot of times. That's not very inventive. If I'm going to be killed, I would like to have a little bit more elan, a little bit more elaboration than just stabbing me with a pen.

1:30I'd be like, I'd be judging you as you gouged me with the pen. I'd be like, come on, Amon, really? I mean, also, ow, but really. That'd be a poor use of your final members, I think. You could do better. All right, we're also joined by Liam Dempsey. Hello, Liam. Hello, Chris. Hello, hello. How would you take Amon out if he were to suddenly kick off. If he were to grab a pen and start having a go at me, you would naturally leap to my defense, Hutch Mantle style, and you would say, Oi, no, if you kill Chris, the quality of the Empire podcast will go inexorably up. We can't have this. So what would you do?

2:10I think as Amon's already taken my pen to murder you. It is mightier than the sword. I mean, that's a good choice. I'd have to go full born and use something that you wouldn't expect, this water bowl. Okay. Oh, would you drown me in it? What would you do? Maybe I'd grab him on and shove it down his throat in a kind of water bowl style. Wow. That's uncalled for. This was a perfectly nice game of how would you kill each other and you've ruined it. You went too far. Shame. We were all having such a great time. How would I kill you both? I mean, you would try and fail. Let's just get that out of the way.

2:55I mean, you're both... How should we say this? You're both units. You're both blocking the door and any other exits. However... There is no escape. I think I'm pretty lithe. I'm nimble. I'm noted for my wiry strength. No, I'd be dead. I'd be dead. You could use the skills you picked up during The Running Man. yeah there were no skills I picked up doing the running mag in London yesterday but how would I I would take this microphone cover and I would fire it at you no that hasn't worked that hasn't worked Mon is still alive and kicking alright while I figure out how to take down these two goliaths of podcasting let's have an interview with the director of Nobody 2 Timo Ciccanto I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago.

3:48He is, of course, an Indonesian action director. If you've never seen The Night Comes for Us, I think it's still on Netflix. Check it out. It's absolutely superb. And I spoke to him for about 20 minutes or so, and we got as deep into the film as we could in that relatively short for a spoiler special interview space of time. Here we go. Me talking to Timo, who is a lovely chap. Enjoy. I think the big question on everybody's lips after they see Nobody 2 is going to be, is Nobody 3 going to be about Hutch's hunt for the fish that eats his finger? You know what? There's a funny story about that. When we shot that scene, we were thinking about all the continuity that's going to happen the moment he lost his little pinky, or at least part of his little pinky.

4:40And then we were thinking like, hey, how are we going to pull this off for the rest of the film, you know, like, uh, we can do the fat bandage sort of like, uh, you know, uh, thing, but at the same time, what if people still think like, Oh, it looks like, you know, like it looks like there's nothing wrong with his pinky because it's just, it's still the same size. So we, we kind of like make a, like a kind of like almost like a emergency plot. What if we tell the story of Hutch actually went back into the water and then he hunts for a particular fish and managed to get his little pinky back. And then we were thinking, then we have to tell the story about him sewing the pinky back together and all that stuff.

5:18So we decided like, you know what, leave it to the film, film gods that people actually buy into the hole, into the hole losing his pinky stuff, you know? And you know, so far I think it's still working, but like, we'll, we shall see once the film's out, like whether there's going to be a whole Reddit discussion about his pinky. Yeah. How much has he lost? Did he go back? Did he hunt the fish down? Exactly. That's also a question, like how much exactly did he lost in his pinky? Because like, he still have to function, you know, like pinky is an underrated digit in our, in our hands, you know, like, so.

5:49If you're an assassin, right? So you're holding your gun. You need that for balance. I presume I'm not an assassin. You need that for balance, exactly. So that's why we, we, we are very sort of like delicate in terms of just how much he lost it. Obviously, if I'm leaning to my, to my sort of more sadistic tendency, then I want Hodge to lose a bunch of fingers, but I was happy enough that Bob says, hell yeah, let's do it. So I'm like, okay, let's do it. Let's make Hatch lose his pinky. So was that a big discussion then? Was that in the original script? It wasn't in the original script, but I feel here's the thing.

6:26I do appreciate Bob for always wanting Hatch to be a guy who's not invincible, right? He's not beyond getting his ass kicked. is not beyond kind of like sometimes having a moment of carelessness and i think we kind of have to make that as a we have to make that in a more permanent sort of like uh uh we have to show that aesthetically where something is sort of like leave a permanent damage and so we kind of think like what if what if like hutch lose an eye what if Hatch broke his hand in the middle of the film? So we're kind of like, hey, what if he lost his pinky just because he started as somebody who doesn't want to fight, right?

7:16And so we pitched that to Bob and Bob says like, all right, I'm done for it. And there you go. Yeah. Well, it's really interesting that you even do that. You even go there and you cut the pinky off because there's a really interesting thematic aspect of this movie that I wanted to talk with you about, which is Hutch's temper. And, you know, this idea, we spoke about this for the magazine, I think whenever we talked a couple of months ago about this idea that, you know, Hutch is cool and he's a cool guy, obviously, and he's a top assassin and it's an action movie. I want to talk about the action scenes, But there's this subtext, I think, where you're undercutting Hutch a little bit in the movie, that his temper is something that comes back to bite him on the ass again and again and again throughout the movie.

8:09We see him trying to de-escalate situations, and then he just can't do it. He can't walk away. the arcade fight for example is one where you're going oh hutch he's back a little man because you know this is just a you know he's going in full bore on a security guard who's not prepared for this sort of stuff so is that something that you and bob wanted to explore throughout the movie of course definitely i mean we we spoke quite you know like quite deeply about like uh because you know, Bob is a father of two kids and I'm a father of two kids as well. So we often talk about, hey, you know what?

8:45There's a lot of satisfaction, almost like a primal satisfaction that comes with being able to kind of get back to the jerks, you know, like who wronged your family, you know, like in this case, like we will see it in the arcade scene where a guy simply sort of slaps the back of his daughter's head, right? And I think in a sense, you know, us fathers, like we all sort of have that mind, like, hey, if anybody else like mess with my daughter, I'm going to go crazy on them. But we often don't think about the repercussion, you know, we often don't think about how does it affect the rest of our other families, you know, like the other family members, because sometimes responding with violence is not necessarily the wisest thing, but we can't deny that there is something uh primarily satisfying about that you know we want we want there's a part of us that wants the brutality the violent side of us kind of like you know uh commit it's a kind of act of violence right yeah it's cathartic for the characters and it's cathartic for the character and also yes we we we spoke with you know like speaking with bob like he said like yeah I think there is an addiction in Hatch, whether we like it or not.

10:05That's why when the film started, he kind of goes back into the whole, I have to pay off the debt. But at the same time, we did discuss maybe secretly Hatch actually loves this thing. It's almost like a muscle memory that sort of comes back. When you haven't played basketball for a while, because you played basketball in college and you were so good at it, and then suddenly real life kind of stops you from doing it and then you kind of get back to the court and start shooting hoops there's something satisfying knowing that your body still sort of reacts to you know like the younger you you know like and that's how we talk about like yeah hutch really loves it when he can still do these things and yeah that becomes a part of the narrative without trying to sort of like dig it too deep you know it just becomes something that's the surface.

10:57I thought it was really, really interesting that he has that. There are numerous times there's a moment where the confrontation in the warehouse with Sheriff Abel, where he talks his way out of the situation and then he sees that Wyatt's son has been kidnapped and he can't let it go. And he drives away and then he comes back and starts kicking all kinds of ass, which of course leads to the end of the film. He doesn't think that his actions will have consequences. I just thought that was a really, really interesting thread that you guys were pulling at throughout the movie. Yes, and that's all by design because what else can we explore?

11:30Because the first film really explored about, they already did such a great job about, I guess for the lack of better word, regaining your masculinity back, right? But in this one, what if your masculinity also becomes the potential seed of your downfall, right? And that's what we talk about from time to time. and i hope that sort of reflects in the film as well that warehouse action sequence uh is really funny because hutch drives back he reverses back into into shot then he gets out of his car he goes into the uh the warehouse we hear all hell breaking loose but we don't see it initially at least were you tempted to try and portray the entire fight from that static camera position before you cut to inside?

12:21Well, I was told, like, here's the thing. Like, I think by the time we kind of reach the duck boat fight, you know, which is, you know, like, it's already a testament of how physical Hodge can be. And then we also saw, like, him earlier trying to regain, trying to grab that disc from the guys in the elevator. So I was thinking, like, you know what? At this point, people already know just how bad Hodge can be. and why don't we try to show sort of like his action from a different side you know and here's the thing like i'll i'll i'll give you a confession chris like that scene is definitely uh a testament to my fanboyism to a film called the limey so uh the limey is actually one of uh an underrated film from steven soderbergh starring like the great terence stamp you know like and i I really love that film.

13:15And I remember watching it when I was probably 18 or 19 years old. And I can't let go of that one scene where he's trying to find his daughter. And he got his ass kicked. And then he went back to his car. And then he grabs a gun. And then all you hear is gunshots. And that sticks forever with me. And I was thinking, hey, I think we only have a day and a half to shoot that whole action sequence. So why don't we show it mostly from, you know, like from what's not seen, you know, and then we suddenly jump into it. Well, he's already sort of like in the middle of obliterating these, these, these Landinas guys, so to speak.

13:53So, you know, and that's what happened. And I, again, like I'm thankful for Bob. So he's so up for it. Like, Hey Timo, like just make sure when I get into that, like, you know, like that, uh, the buzzer sort of table, like I want blood to just spray on me and all that stuff. So, you know, we did all that stuff and I couldn't be happier. That's amazing. I'm glad you brought up the limey, Timo, because it was in my thoughts. Did you have a temptation to have Hutch coming out of the building and yell, tell her I'm coming, tell her I'm fucking coming? You know what, that would be great. But I think that's sort of like, at the same time, like we kind of want to sort of, here's the thing, what's interesting about that, that's what, because you said that, I kind of remind myself that the funny thing is this is one of those movies where, again, like the first film, we are trying to keep that sort of culture where, ironically, the major villain doesn't even know Hutch exists until he sort of butts into his or her sort of activity.

14:59So in a way, they're innocent in a weird sense. It's always funny how Hatch ends up snowballing his own issues and then these guys who are in the middle of nowhere like, who the hell is this guy? So we tried to keep that. Otherwise I would have done that. Tell them I'm fucking coming! But we didn't do that in the end. And of course he's not coming. She's coming to him. She's coming to him. Yeah, it would have been an empty threat. Tell her I'm waiting here. It doesn't have the same impact. But I want to skip ahead to the ending because, or the last, the big finale set piece that you have. Because again, there's something really interesting that goes on throughout this, which is Hutch doesn't kill, I mean, he kills a lot of people.

15:43He kills a lot of people. But he doesn't kill any of the quote-unquote main villains of the film. He doesn't kill Sheriff Abel. He doesn't kill Lindina's hench women, the pair of deadly killers. They're taken out by Wyatt. And then, of course, it's Becca who takes out Lendina at the end again can you talk about that a very deliberate thing on your part some deliberate design and this is all obviously I'm giving a huge props to Bob because you know again like Bob kind of you know like we talk about it like hey what's most important is what is the theme of the film you know like yes we can see Bob kind of like going or Hutch going heroically against Lendina and triumphing over her and her henchwoman or Sheriff Abel.

16:36But at the same time, this is about a movie where we think, essentially, this is about a movie where we think masculinity can solve a lot of things, like the machismo and the ability to solve things with violence can solve a lot of things. but at the same time, this movie is essentially about the need for family to support you. And we want to kind of reflect that on the action as well. People always talk about, like, hey, what's Becca's background? How does she manage to sort of accept the fact that her husband is a is a is a as an ex-government assassin you know and there's a version of the story where we kind of delve deeper into it but at this but in the end we kind of decided you know what let that be re let that remain some sort of unspoken mystery because she is definitely capable right like we see we see becca as somebody who's capable we see her as somebody who knows how to deal with Hatch's mess as well.

17:44And I think it's important because in the end, we do agree that yeah, this is a movie where Hatch needs his backer. He is a lot of things, but in the end there's her who's always supporting him. And I think in an action movie nowadays, that's actually a sweet sort of message. That's actually a sweet sort of conclusion. you know especially with the with the music and all and all that stuff like we decide is this being too on your face but like no like this is an accumulation of his this is what makes him different he's not essentially a loon wolf right he is somebody he's the leader of the pack yes but like a leader that needs his pack to for him to to to um to prevail i guess you know absolutely i am very intrigued by their backstory uh becca says that when she first met hutch he was covered in blood, which would be a red flag for most people, but evidently not for her.

18:44She's into that, so props to her. Evidently. Maybe that'll be explored down the line. But I've got to let you go in a couple of seconds, Timo. I wanted to talk about a couple of things at the end. So as with the first Nobody, there's that framing device of Hutch being in an interrogation room, having caused all manner of mayhem. And then you have that lovely reveal that Becca is in the room with him as well um i know things may have changed throughout filmmaking but that seems to me that was something that was in the screenplay right from the off yeah there was there was definitely already there in the beginning you know like we we you know it's weird that like we always want that ending you know like because again like that's the the pretty much the conclusion of the film right like it's all about hutch and his family you know but like the weird thing like what becomes a huge discussion in that ending was what kind of animal will hutch have like as an accompanying sort of like animal like so there's a lot of discussion hey what what if this you know like in the first film is a it's the it's a cat yeah and then this one like initially it was some sort of i guess it was some sort of uh rodents of some sort but like you know uh it changed into a squirrel and then at some point like what about a parakeet and all this stuff and then we decided like hey what if you know what if we have something where like hutch he's it's sort of like a wild animal but like it's actually sweet inside you know so we decided with this wolf dog sort of like hybrid and it works well you know yeah did you consider at any point having having hutch whip out the fish that took his finger and use that as a weapon against the bad guys that fish is still living ficariously somewhere in the winnipeg river or in this film like you know down somewhere in in in in uh plumberville you know yeah absolutely yeah that fish i love it um i want to talk about the uh the needle drops in this film as well you were talking about you know the discussions i'm sure you had about using jennifer rush's iconic number one hit the power of love timo uh was that always your your first choice for that moment where becca uh so we discuss a lot about that like so it's weird right so initially when i pitch it to universal i remember like i said like hey imagine imagine once this all like the water park explode and then you know becca heroically pushes uh hatched into the water to save him and give him the bread of life i i remember pitching it with uh chicago's if you leave me now and somehow in my head it works but when we put it in the editing somehow like hey this slows down the film and and somebody else put uh somebody else pitches uh berlin took my uh take my breath away yeah and it's weird because like it works so well in the film but i never considered for once that it's that is that the that music is already an iconic music for another film, Top Gun, until we see it.

21:52And then everybody, wow, this is so cool. Who knew Top Gun music could work as well in Nobody 2? And then, hold on, this music is the Top Gun music, right? Yeah, exactly. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, we can't do that. We can't do that. So we're trying to find music after music. We did some Frank Sinatra variation as well at some point, but then suddenly the Selene version of the power of love suddenly just works so well. And for me at least, it doesn't feel, you know, like ironic. It just feels heartfelt, you know. I'm a pretty cheesy person by nature, you know. I love that mushy stuff sometimes.

22:33So it works so well and voila. Lyrically, it works perfectly as well, you know. I'm your lady, you're my man. whenever you reach for me I'll do what I can and Becca said that earlier right like Hach you're a lot of things but in the end of the day you're a dad and you're still my guy you know so I think you know like she earned that music like they earned that music you know absolutely Timo on that note or those notes in fact glad you guys been a pleasure man thanks very much for your time thank you very much Chris okay that was Timo Ciccanto talking about Nobody 2 and now it is time for us to talk about Nobody 2 Amon, you wrote the Empire Review of this.

23:12I did. And you gave it three stars. Do you stand by that? And where did you stand on the first movie? The first Nobody directed, of course, by Ilya Neyshuler. Yeah. I do stand by my three-star review of Nobody 2. I would give the first movie also three stars. Okay. Okay. Give me that phone thing back. Give me that phone thing back. Oh!

23:35I was not as high on Nobody 2 as a lot of people. that's working with the fact that Chris just tried to kill me again with the phone it's not working I don't blame him after your free staff of Nobody I'm prepping the water bottle he's come in here it's like your murderers come with smiles right and he's come in here all friendly oh yeah oh Chris yeah I'll do the Nobody 2 spotter special of course I will yeah yeah you didn't tell me you had such a controversial opinion about the first Nobody which is fantastic what are you talking about It is controversial. That is not controversial. In this room, it is controversial.

24:12I'm sorry. Who's this, Nobody? Oh, my gosh. I was not... Because I know that you wrote the review for Nobody, Chris. You gave it four stars of memory subs. Did I? You loved it that much. I did not. I enjoyed certain sequences. This is generally news to me. Okay, good. Carry on, please. I mean, you gave five stars for the Nobody 2 trailer from my memory. I did. We'll get into that in a second. Hey! I fucking did. Yes, you did. I did. Oh, my word. All right. Please, continue. Okay. I thought the best sequence... What a great opening line. Oh, gosh. Better cull Saul, anyone? Oh, this smacks of Chris Hewitt.

25:00Is it four stars for Nobody, five stars for your Nobody review, in your own opinion? I'm just going through it. I'm going through it. Makes John Wick look about as intimidating as a branch of Wick's. Oh, that is labored. You're not on the shameless plug now for back issues. No, then I would do it with a silly voice, of course. Anyway, yes. I'm also incorrect that line. Let's just put that out there. I'm sorry, Hutch Mansell, he would get destroyed by John Wick. Wow. Okay. I'm saying it. I'm sorry. And again, the bus sequence in the first Nobody, that was a four-star sequence. I'll give you that.

25:39It's a five-star sequence. Yeah, five-star sequence. The bus sequence, definitely. Fair. But the rest of the film, I just thought it was fine. I'm sorry. Empire's Chris Hewitt says, and I quote, With Better Call Saul about to come to an end, Odenkirk switches gears with admirable ease, anchoring one of the most purely enjoyable action movies in ages. It's not quite a case of nobody does it better, but it'll do until somebody does. I regret ever reminding you of this review so much. As I was saying, nobody was fun, and I enjoyed the novelty of Bob Odenkirk breaking bad, as it were, and kicking all tons of ass.

26:26Oh, that's good. I should put it on my review. here is more of the same but we don't have that novelty anymore and what we get does not make up the difference enough to take it beyond three-star territory and i'd say that this is a lower three star and nobody is a higher three star there you go oh that makes all the difference yeah if half stars were able three and a half for nobody three stars for nobody too i okay i disagree very much with your take on Nobody, which I've seen a few times now since it came out back in 2021, I want to say, during the pandemic. And I just think it's an absolute blast.

27:04It obviously is from Derek Kolstad, who is the same writer who originated the John Wick franchise. And it feels very much like this is the comedy twist on John Wick. I know there's a little bit of seriousness, a little bit of drama in the Nobody films, but it kind of feels a little bit out of place. This is the more outlandish, cartoonish take I would say on action very much more of an overt comedy rather than John Wick and I just love Nobody I think it's I think it's absolutely terrific it's so much fun and yes it has You'll Never Walk Alone being played at the end well what more could you possibly want?

27:38That's why he gave it four stars isn't it? I had to hold myself back from five when Don't Do It Hewitt you know what happens when you give a film five stars Liam what's your take on Nobody and then we'll move on to Nobody 2 Yeah I really like Nobody I saw it in That's a nihilist's dream isn't it? I would also give it four stars, I saw it in 2021 in the cinema I remember that it was one of the first kind of bigger releases just out of lockdown 3 when they reopened the cinemas, I think it was around May, June 2021 maybe, I certainly remember going to see it and it felt like oh, we're back at the movies now of watching that.

28:22The movies are back. Yeah, I really, really had a good time with it. The bus sequence, I'm like, yeah, that is a five-star iconic action sequence. I actually think what you were saying is you being coloured by the tone of Nobody 2. Nobody actually has a lot of intensity to it. And there are serious moments that balance out the comedic beats, whereas the second film is far more full-on comedy than the first. I still think the first is an action comedy. But we're not here to relitigate Nobody. Four stars is Emperor Magazine. We're here to relitigate Nobody 2. And what did you think of Nobody 2 in comparison to Nobody Uno?

29:11It's a step down from the first. There's no doubt about that. I don't think there's definitely been a lot of negativity about it i don't think i'm quite there with it i enjoyed my time with it i had fun um i just think it's in when you compare it to the first film it is a step down into three-star territory from rock solid four-star territory uh but i i still enjoyed it i still had a lot of fun while i was watching it it's one of those ones when i walked out of it i was like oh yeah i had loads of fun with that and then five minutes later i was like are starting to forget the film and maybe it wasn't as impactful as I thought while I was watching it.

29:53Good thing I've asked you several weeks later to come in to do a Spotted Special on it given that you began to forget the film five minutes after you saw it. So this is the one where Bob Wooden Kirkby goes on holiday and he comes up against Sharon Stone. Ah, yes, so he's not coming back. Okay, good. Yeah, I have a very strange relationship with this movie. I was hugely excited about it. Anyone who was listening to the Emperor Podcast, the regular one when the trailer came out will know that I I went full bore and called the trailer alone the best film of the year five stars what a masterpiece it did it promised something that I think sadly we don't get which is a really fun and funny action comedy National Lampoon's Vacation with knives and lint if you will I wrote the feature for Empire I got to speak to Timo and Bob Odenkirk and Sharon Stone and that was that was great and I had a wonderful time.

30:46And I enjoyed the movie. I think the movie has got some very nice things in it. I think Timo has been maybe held back a little bit by the American action movie system. I don't think this is full Timo. I don't think he's been fully unleashed. But my main worry with it is I think that this script was not great. I'm not entirely sure that Derek Holstead's original screenplay is the one that we're seeing right now. Maybe there was a clash of tones, maybe he wrote something a little bit darker, you know, there's another writer in the movie and maybe those things just didn't mesh. Maybe it suffers a little bit from the gang's all-here-itis that I think can befall a lot of sequels.

31:33I enjoyed this movie and I think there's a really compelling story and I really like, as you heard in the interview I did with Timo, I really like some of the things it's trying to do about toxic masculinity and about the idea that Hutch is someone who just can't let it go. And if he let something go, and if he just walked away from a situation rather than try to be the big I am, then everything would be totally fine. I like that. And I like what it's trying to do with his relationship with Becca. And I like what it's trying to do in terms of, you know, a man of violence, communicating that to his son and his daughter and, you know, them trying to find the better way ahead as a family.

32:10I think it's a really compelling movie in there. What I don't think we need to do is have Christopher Lloyd crowbarred into the film. What I don't think we need to do is have RZA crowbarred into the film either. And I think the movie struggles with both of those characters, David, Hutch's dad, and Harry, Hutch's brother. Again, I had fun with some of it, and I admire Timo's staging of the action sequences. But I think everything else in between just fell a little bit flat for me. And by the end, it's almost a little bit rote. I agree with a lot of what you're saying there. I think... Thank you!