In short
A spoiler-special deep dive into Project Hail Mary, focusing on adaptation choices, flashback structure, the Grace–Rocky relationship, and how the film visualizes hard-science concepts (e.g., astrophage, infrared/atmosphere effects) without turning into lectures.
Guests (backgrounds)
Phil Lord and Chris Miller (directors; known for Lord & Miller). Helen O’Hara (film journalist; says she avoided reading the novel to be surprised). James Dyer (film writer/podcaster). Harry Stainer (podcaster; jokes about not planning to go to space).
Key claims
Lord & Miller say they preserved the novel’s ending (Grace stays with Rocky; “hands on the glass”); they built a non-linear, discovery-driven flashback structure; and they kept exposition efficient by hiding it in jokes and character beats. Guests argue the late reveal that Grace was abducted makes him relatable and makes the final sacrifice more powerful.
Notable examples
The “Muppet Babies” Rocky creatures; the beach ending where Grace is content; the rainbow lens moment during the drugging/tackle scene; the “two people at a table” relationship logic; and the third-act astrophage/taumiba explanation and synthetic-food solution.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Anticipation of Project Hail Mary
0:45 to 1:42
Discussion on the significance and excitement surrounding the film adaptation.
“that sees Ryan Gosling's astronaut, Ryland Grace, team up with a lovable alien nicknamed Rocky in an attempt to save both of their planets.”
Insights from Phil Lord and Chris Miller
1:42 to 3:55
Phil and Chris share their deep insights about the film's structure and emotional beats.
“They didn't exactly conform to a traditional movie structure, right?”
Character Relationships in Project Hail Mary
3:55 to 6:36
Exploration of the relationship dynamics between Ryland Grace and Rocky.
“competent development executive would tell you not to do that.”
Editing and Flashback Structure
6:36 to 10:19
Discussion on the editing process and the innovative flashback structure used in the film.
“We shot that on the beach at Dirtle Door here in the great UK.”
Thematic Elements and Symbolism
10:19 to 13:10
Exploration of thematic depth, including the use of rainbows and emotional contrasts in the film.
“As if the atmosphere of Rocky's side has a prismatic effect.”
Motivations and Character Dynamics
13:10 to 14:00
Discussion on the motivations driving Ryland Grace and his relationship with other characters.
Exploring Emotional Juxtaposition in Film
14:00 to 14:48
Learn how emotional contrasts enhance storytelling.
“And it's, and it's a little bit funny and makes you uncomfortable because it's also incredibly serious and dark and this like, and, and sad.”
Character Motivations and Relationships
14:48 to 16:48
Delve into the complexities of character motivations in the story.
“I mean, it seems to me that there's a connection building between him and Strat.”
Creating Visceral Moments in Film
16:48 to 19:06
Understand the significance of pivotal moments and audience engagement.
“Yeah, you never know until you put it all together, right?”
Incorporating Scientific Concepts in Storytelling
19:06 to 20:32
Discover how scientific ideas are woven into the narrative seamlessly.
“But with that scene I was just talking about, where Rocky makes his noble sacrifice play, if you will.”
Show all 30 chapters
The Passage of Time and Character Development
20:32 to 22:28
Learn about the techniques used to show character growth over time.
“And that like, that's the kind of thing that you can do to sort of like hide the fact that you're giving people exposition because, uh, because it's telling you something else.”
Jettisoning Earth: A Key Decision Scene
22:28 to 24:18
Examine the emotional weight of critical decision-making in the film.
“So he has to cut it in a way that kind of honors where the sun is.”
Using Music to Enhance Emotional Impact
24:18 to 26:58
Explore how song choices impact emotional moments in film.
“But you, the audience, want to be reminded of what he's giving him.”
Opening Reflections on the Film
28:00 to 28:31
The hosts discuss initial reactions and insights about the film's premise.
“and just syringe you in the neck and you'll wake up with no memory on a ship.”
Exploring the Hero's Journey
28:31 to 30:21
A deep dive into the complexities of the protagonist's character and choices.
“And yes, it was a death sentence that would get you many statues made and books written about you.”
Character Relationships and Sacrifice
30:21 to 33:32
Discussion on the dynamics between characters and the theme of sacrifice.
“You know, he's like, yes, I will go into space and sacrifice myself nobly for everyone.”
Science and Storytelling in Hail Mary
33:32 to 36:09
Comparison of scientific elements in the film versus the book, focusing on storytelling.
“We've all seen it once, except for Helen.”
Understanding the Plot Mechanics
36:09 to 38:04
Clarification of key plot points and scientific concepts within the film.
“why the man has to do the thing with the thing.”
Emotional Impact of the Characters
38:04 to 41:21
Exploring the emotional ties viewers have with the characters, especially Rocky.
“It feels like the movie's ending and all we're waiting for is Rocky to wake up hopefully.”
Final Thoughts and Comparisons
41:21 to 42:00
The hosts share their overall impressions and compare the film to other sci-fi works.
“You got two hours into the film and I'm like, would die for Rocky at this point.”
Reflections on Project Hail Mary
42:00 to 45:04
The hosts discuss their mixed feelings and insights about the film's emotional depth and characters.
“I would die for everyone in June what are you talking about?”
Character Choices and Sacrifice
45:04 to 48:26
The conversation explores the moral dilemmas faced by characters and their emotional journeys.
“It's very funny, but he's not yucking it up at the wrong moments.”
Themes of Connection and Humanity
48:26 to 51:58
The hosts analyze the theme of human connections and relationships in the narrative.
“It's like your alarm clock goes off at 3am.”
Final Thoughts and Insights
51:58 to 56:00
The hosts wrap up their thoughts on the film and its impact, touching on comedic elements.
“And clearly then they're on the road to saving the sun and everything's going to be okay.”
Exploring Human Knowledge and Incompetence
56:00 to 56:48
The hosts humorously discuss the value of the podcast and its place in human knowledge.
“I just don't think it would work for him.”
Emotional Moments in the Film
56:48 to 59:00
Discussion on emotional scenes in the movie that resonated with the hosts.
“Anywho, listen, we've got about 10 minutes left.”
Faithful Adaptation and Concerns
59:00 to 1:01:21
Hosts express concerns over potential changes in the film adaptation of Project Hail Mary.
“And so I was a bit worried about changes like that happening.”
Technical Achievements and Directing
1:01:21 to 1:04:16
Discussion about the technical achievements and directing style of the film.
“Yeah, there's a video up of him talking to the production designer and just talking about the fact that the sets of course had to work in sort of different alignments.”
Character Performances and Marketing
1:04:16 to 1:06:35
Hosts analyze the performances of characters and the marketing strategies for the film.
“in terms of its kind of taking the mission seriously but not the person too seriously.”
Shoutouts and Final Thoughts
1:06:35 to 1:07:36
Final shoutouts to contributors and hosts' closing thoughts on the podcast.
“I'm afraid you're in the maw of this podcast.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:15Chris Hewitt:Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to the latest in our series of spoilers special podcasts and this one is set to amaze, amaze, amaze you because it is dedicated to Project Hail Mary, the latest movie from Phil Lord and Chris Miller, aka Lord and Miller, but not aka Phil and Chris. Hmm, interesting. Wonder why. It's their first live-action movie as directors for over a decade, but has been well worth the wait, for it is an absolute belter, turning Andy Weir's novel into an epic sci-fi buddy movie that sees Ryan Gosling's astronaut, Ryland Grace, team up with a lovable alien nicknamed Rocky in an attempt to save both of their planets.
0:55Chris Hewitt:In a second, I'm going to be joined in the pod booth by three colleagues of such lethal cunning to do a deep dive into the film but first we're going to hear from Lord and Miller themselves because I sat down recently with them in a London hotel room and delved deep into the film's twists turns and big emotional beats the kind of beats that have turned the film into a huge hit since we recorded this interview and we recorded the Empire podcast bit as well and it is well in its way to be in one of the year's biggest I would say most beloved movies audiences are really really connecting with this and of course with rocky which ain't too shabby so here we go phil lord and chris miller talking about project hell mary hell to the kings baby enjoy phil chris welcome to the empire podcast spoiler special for project hell mary you assure me you've seen the film which is good yes more than once first of all a broad question about the structure of the film yeah and about the story of the film which is relatively faithful to the to the novel was that something that you decided on early on or was that something that happened organically as you were going one of the rules of this adaptation that we set up with drew goddard the screenwriter uh who's a wonderful guy was that we didn't want to make anything easier on ourselves, right?
2:18It might have made sense to tell this in a linear way, and certainly that was suggested, but it seemed to us that the architecture of Andy's novel was a great spine to build the story on and the discoveries that happened, right? They didn't exactly conform to a traditional movie structure, right? And so it meant that we would have to create a intuitive structure where you're telling a linear story about a character's development into timelines. That is harder. But more rewarding for the audience, I think, because you get something that's totally unique. Right. And there's other things that could have made our lives simpler if we didn't have Rocky have to have a different atmosphere and so it didn't always have to be behind a wall or any of those things but all of those obstructions were opportunities to tell a story in a way you hadn't seen before and so i think we we sort of just stacked hands on uh on all that stuff and then it was just about like what plot points can we can we eliminate to make the story into the size of a movie yeah but keep the relationships uh the same and keep the soul and spirit of the movie and the ending the same yeah that was like a really important thing to us so the novel ends as the movie does.
3:39Ryan doesn't go home to Earth. He stays out in space. He chooses his alien friend and he chooses to live his life in a terrarium on another planet. And that just seemed so unusual and any competent development executive would tell you not to do that. And that the audience would not go there and they would want him to go home. Let's shoot it. And, you know, we can always end it with like Rocky. He goes to save Rocky and they have their hands on the on the glass. That's the heads on the glass. And that's the end of the movie. But so we'll test it and see if people go for it. And guess what? They love the last scene.
4:22They love the Muppet babies at the end. They just they want to know those guys are going to live happily ever after. Right. And I think there's something about like a character who starts the movie. He's not like most lonely space man movies are about a guy who's got like a lot of family back home that he's trying to get back to. This is a movie about a guy who's lonely on Earth. Yeah. And he goes to space to find himself and find his person. And one of our mentors is this woman, Lindsay Duran, and she talks about, she gives this talk, but she also talked to us about like how, you know, movies are about relationships and they, the great movies, they end in like a little denouement about the core relationship.
5:04You know, she talked about like in Dirty Dancing, it doesn't actually end with them doing the lift. It ends with her reconciling with her father. Yeah. And, you know, on and on and on. And you're like, those big Avengers movie ends with them eating Schwerma together as a team, right? Yeah, those movies always end with two people at a table. Right. Like half the Mission Impossible movies, they end with two people at a table. Even like Rocky doesn't end with him, you know, like with the end of the boxing match. It's like him going up to Adrian and saying, I did it. Literally, when they announce the winner, it's like in the background.
5:36Right. Right? Yeah. And he loses, of course. It's the win is the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, that's why we sort of knew that the two of them on the beach together was what the movie really was.
5:49Chris Hewitt:And it's such a wonderful final shot as well. Can you talk about just knowing which shot to end? I love the Muppet Babies as well. I love the Muppet Babies. That's what we called them. Because we built some of these little rocky creature puppets as well. It had the team of people bouncing around and stuff, which was a very fun little afternoon. So look, the last shot of the movie is Ryan completely content. Yeah. Right. And genuinely laughing and clapping. And the idea was always, you know, he starts the movie in complete distress, upside down, in misery, with no sense of who he is. And the end of the movie is he knows who he is.
6:36Right. Yeah. We shot that on the beach at Dirtle Door here in the great UK. And what you're seeing is behind the camera is us and a couple other crew members dancing around like little Muppets. And behaving as if we were alien children. And he is genuinely delighted by the antics. Right? Yeah. And it was pretty great. Yeah. It was pretty great. That's genuine delight in his face.
7:07Chris Hewitt:I love that. You also get the sense at the end, obviously, that, you know, there is a chance now for him to go back to Earth. Yes. But do you think he might? Do you think, you know, just as... Interesting. So it's an interesting choice to do that. One of the things that we thought was powerful is that he is offered the chance to go home, but he would rather be here. Yeah. And that makes me tear up thinking about it. He would rather be with this guy. And so, like, we thought... He didn't have any core relationships on Earth. He was lonely on Earth. And even the people that he had some relationships with would, with the time dilation, be way older now.
7:48By the time he got back. By the time he got back. But why would he go anywhere when his best friend is here? The other thing is he says, can I think about it when Strat says, we need you to go on the mission? Right. Because he's going to think about it twice. Right. And so here he says, can I think about it as a way of saying, I'm glad I'm here and I don't.
8:12Chris Hewitt:Are you suggesting that Rocky might have to drug him to set the phone? Yes. Like they knock him out and put him on the ship. He wakes up and goes, not again. Yes. Rocky. No, love is a drug. Yeah. Love is a drug and he's sitting there. Now I'm many light years away from my friend. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because that is fascinating. I mean, I wanted to talk about the flashback structure. and because it is very intuitive it is very much every flashback is derived from some sort of new discovery that that that Ryland makes but was that something that you guys had a script stage or did you find any of those in the edit yes both so it was in the script and we wiggled them around on the script a million times and you know landed in a pretty decent place and then once we had it in the edit you know there were you know the original cut of the movie was like over three hours so it was hard to so it was a lot of um people trying to troubleshoot that and going like well we should move this thing all the way to the beginning and you know it was uh but we we ultimately after trying all kinds of things we wound up basically sticking to the structure that we had.
9:23There's about two or three spots that are different from what originally was scripted. And we did also, because we wanted to have these transitions from space to Earth and Earth back to space and have it feel like it was all flowing from one to the other, we did shoot some potential transitions for places we thought we might want to have one just in case. And we used one or two of those also And then we ginned up a couple because we'd moved a few things around. And we had a great editor, Joel Negron, who like tasked with this thing of having two storylines that are going at the same time, but never wanting to feel like you're stopping the story.
10:06But keeping us moving forward the whole time is a real challenge. But we felt we like worked it and worked it and then found found the right balance and try to make it feel all as one thing. That was, you know, the secret answer was lots of work. Yeah, but the final flashback, when he learns that he was sent on the ship against his will, that we went all the way around the Rosie with that, and it wound up back where it started, which is at the moment of his greatest pleasure, basically, that we undercut it there, and everywhere else we tried it didn't quite feel.
10:46Chris Hewitt:Yeah, because that is, I think, an astonishing thing, development in the story right as well because you think you know where it's going that's how I felt when I was reading the book was like yeah yeah yeah then he's gonna like say okay fine I'll do it and yeah he's gonna take he's gonna bravely sacrifice but then if he had done that then his sacrifice for Rocky wouldn't mean anything yeah and so it really hits you like oh my god I didn't realize he is a he is afraid he is a character who is a coward he balks at the word brave exactly at one point and you can kind of now you want absolutely understand why yeah but at the same time it's going back to what you said phil i mean you know a lot of development executives would have gone get rid of that get rid of it or move it earlier so it happens before the scene yeah when he gets the fuel and maybe it should be you know whatever it's like in a really affecting scene so maybe it could happen earlier to like hold our engagement right you know but um but ultimately you know we tried all those things we tried to be diligent filmmakers and partners but you know what always seemed to feel right to us was to do it there and it was hard to justify and one crazy thing about that shoot, shooting that scene was we had been shooting we had this sort of like rainbow theme happening where you know Greg had bought this like $8 rainbow lens that made these rainbow flares when we were in Rocky's environment because we wanted the world to feel different when we were on Rocky's side of the wall.
12:20As if the atmosphere of Rocky's side has a prismatic effect. Yeah, right. And so then we started bringing that into other elements of the shoot because we thought it was an interesting effect. And then while we were shooting, the moment where he gets tackled and drugged, a rainbow came out while we were shooting. It was the last week of shooting. And we're like, oh, my God. As we were prepping the shot. So the camera was rigged on a cart pulling Ryan when he's running down the street. And the next shot was him getting put in the dirt. So we had to quickly de-rig it and pull the camera out and throw it onto Greg's shoulder.
13:01And we just barely caught the rainbow before it disappeared. We thought we might have missed it.
13:06Chris Hewitt:But then the rainbow came back and we shot it again. It was like take two. I was so excited. and it was like it felt like kismet it felt like the movie yeah yeah it was like giving us this like this magical thing and people like we'd be like ah they put that in there and post but it was really there that was the craziest part i love that and i love also the fact that that ryan in that scene is genuinely ryanland is running away yes for his life yeah in that scene right and again that's the sort of thing you wouldn't expect to say that you know right your hero is like not every actor would be up for that right they would think it would be bad for their brand and what's interesting about that whole scene is that there's like it's like uncomfortable because some of the shots are kind of funny yeah and then like he like climbs on the bookcase and he's like running out this like little guy it depends on the crowd the audience want to laugh right because it's like he is so small of a person and you're kind of like oh this look at this coward.
14:05Yeah. And it's, and it's a little bit funny and makes you uncomfortable because it's also incredibly serious and dark and this like, and, and sad. And he's like literally clutching the earth, like not wanting to let go of the earth. When it's like the last shot of him on earth. And, and I think like, that's what is really interesting with the movies that you're, you're constantly like up against these, these different things that are like really emotionally impacting you. and then also make you laugh and cry at the same time. And I think that's... We kind of love putting that juxtaposition as much as possible.
14:47Chris Hewitt:What motivates Grace in that moment for you guys? I mean, it seems to me that there's a connection building between him and Strat. Yes. But is it as simple as that? Or is it literally just self-preservation kicking in? oh well you know yeah there's a couple ways to kind of read it one is that like it's a total betrayal you know here's somebody that he he feels like he's getting closer and closer to across the movie who's who in that amazing karaoke sequence where sandra just has like a movie star performance right and she basically lets him know like you know i care about you in another job and another time like we could be even closer but that's not the role and so here it breaks her heart but she has to send him away and he doesn't want to leave he's got the only relationship he's had in the movie I also think you know he's doesn't have anybody to be brave for yet he doesn't have anyone in his life that is worth that he is willing to like hurt himself for.
16:00The idea of him as a character is like a guy that was kicked out of academia and was like, I'm taking my ball and going home. I'm hiding from life because I don't want to get hurt again. His whole persona is about self-preservation and not getting hurt. And then it takes a lot of prodding and a relationship that matters to him to put himself in a position to to let himself get her.
16:28Chris Hewitt:Which brings us neatly onto Rocky. And there are a couple of moments in this movie that I imagine were crucial for you. When you've been watching this with audiences, do you know that you have them in terms of the Rocky-Grace relationship when Rocky seems to sacrifice himself to save Grace? Oh, yeah. Because the audience I saw it with, you had them. Yeah, you never know until you put it all together, right? Yeah. But certainly, you know, and particularly this movie, like some of those shots, you know, there's some puppet stuff in there, but it's mostly CGI at that point. So you don't really know until it's finished.
17:08Right. And that's a really, it was a really tough to execute, like Rocky, like grabbing and pulling Brian. And I think, you know, that's one of the benefits of having like the obstruction of like okay rocky can't breathe the same atmosphere as grace so there is always a wall between them he's either in a ball or there's a wall and so the moment he busts out of that containment it's visceral for you you're like oh my god they spent this whole movie like not letting these people actually touch and then for him to like break out of there for Or his friend is like, oh, it gets you.
17:49Chris Hewitt:Yeah, absolutely. We talked on the regular podcast about some of the scientific concepts that were, I imagine, tricky for you to maneuver around in this movie. How did you do all that? Things like the astrophase, explaining them to the audience without making it feel like they're at a lecture. Yeah, and we didn't want to make anything easier on ourselves. So we didn't want to excise those from the story, because it would be inconvenient you know we just think like inconveniences were really valuable to this movie they made us like you know like leap over hurdles as a film crew and pull things off that we didn't think we were capable of so it's like it's our imitating life or life imitating art i think the core thing idea was like what can we tell visually and cinematically that we don't have to tell with uh with dialogue and you know with say like centrifugal gravity right you know you will like take our time to show you how it works and and let you understand uh like the mechanics of it and like and it's interesting uh watching it and it can be really beautiful and similarly you know we talk a little bit about infrared light and astrophage but it's not telling you like see the shot where we like take literally take the filter out of the camera that blocks infrared light yeah and and show you what's really happening all around you that you understand like oh there's all these little microbes like moving around like a river of dots um we just can't see it um that's a super subjective shot because you're in his imagination of what right right You can't see what the naked eye.
19:32He theorizes his experience. Yes.
19:35Chris Hewitt:But with that scene I was just talking about, where Rocky makes his noble sacrifice play, if you will. Again, you have the visual shorthand of he is literally in a barrier from grace at all times. But there's an earlier line of dialogue about the toxicity of our atmosphere. So it's about planting those seeds. Every once in a while, yeah. We have the benefit of test screenings where we realized like things that the audience needed to know and kept asking about that we had to solve for them you know so we tried to find really efficient sly ways right to tell you that stuff and anything that they seem to understand we were able to like excise a lot of dialogue right and to because it seemed like oh they were already there right and like you hide it in a joke like so he says um my atmosphere would kill him and his me but i like to keep a wall up in my relationships anymore.
20:28Right. So now it has a purpose. And it has a character. Right. Exactly. And that like, that's the kind of thing that you can do to sort of like hide the fact that you're giving people exposition because, uh, because it's telling you something else. And then it comes back later and in the back of your brain, you're like, Oh yeah, that's right. They can't be in each other's atmosphere.
20:47Chris Hewitt:Yeah. I said there was a couple of moments with Rocky. It was about 15, but we have to, we have to wrap up in a second. But one of them, of course is Rocky's recovery. Yeah. Again, can you talk about nailing that? Yeah, we had to think of ways to keep that interesting and express the passage of time. So, Ryan, one of the big themes in the movie is they watch each other sleep on Rocky's planet, and he doesn't want Rocky to watch him sleep. It feels weird. And he consents to watching Rocky sleep, but Rocky just kind of lies there in that Hellraiser bed of Rocky's. And then when Rocky is sick and dying, it just seemed extra beautiful that he watches Rocky sleep.
21:40He holds vigil for him. He holds vigil for him. And the hope was that we would do well enough to let the audience, let the notion creep into their heads that maybe Rocky won't come back just enough. And then Greg did an amazing job of lighting that sequence so that you just had this visual interest that was happening that also suggested the passage of time. And then Ryan is so warm and lovely in those moments. And then imagines a conversation with Rocky. So it's a real feat of editing, I have to say. Joel Negron, the picture editor, he had to contend with the fact that the sun is spinning around the set in every single moment.
22:32So he has to cut it in a way that kind of honors where the sun is. Also, the lights, there's like a blue kind of cleaning light that goes through in one part. And so it's really, plus there's a conversation that's happening across time. the thing that we like were inspired by Harold and Ma there's like a scene in the like the arboretum where they start having this conversation and it bounces through time and the sentences flow from one to another and so we would shoot the dialogue in different outfits in different lighting conditions in different things. We shot the whole speech in every scenario so we had freedom of where to cut it and then in the sound mix We worked hard to make sure that it felt like they were different performances when we cut from one environment to another.
23:29There's like a shelf in the mix, usually, to try to make the seams more palpable instead of trying to make them feel smooth.
23:38Chris Hewitt:That's amazing. I do have to let you guys go, but I have one last thing to ask about, which is, and I know this was a big, big scene for you guys. which is the moment that Grace decides to jettison Earth and go and save Rocky instead. I think we ought to go a couple of minutes, but can you talk about that scene and bringing that home? Interestingly, the timing of the dialogue to picture was really hard to nail down. It was like the last thing we did. And I think we figured it out at the sound mix. Right. In like the last week. Wow. What's interesting about it is that where Rylan Grace is at that point, it's not a hard decision for him because he knows he has to save his friend.
24:26But you, the audience, want to be reminded of what he's giving him. That's why we shot some stuff in the don't-go-crazy room where he's looking at images of Earth and all the things that he would be going back to. and you know and there was like we spent a long time you know in rehearsals and dialogue with Ryan on that scene in particular like finding the right tone and balance of somebody who knows that this is a sort of a sad bittersweet thing and he's telling this as a message in a bottle to Strat and sort of a reveal that all of these video logs were him talking to her and sort of ending with him saying you were right about me.
25:21And it was hard to find the right balance and tone, but again having one of the great actors working today as your partner on the movie helps you all out a lot.
25:36Chris Hewitt:It helps, absolutely. Very, very quick, because I'm a big Beatles fan. and it's very rare for the Beatles to say yes to one of their songs being used, Two of Us, which is fantastic. To get the Beatles and the studio to say yes at the same time. Absolutely. No easy feat, but you know, it was such a good fit. Yes. It was eventually easy to prevail on the studio. They knew it was going to be such a boon to the picture. It'd be worth the money. It's like emotionally like perfect for the moment. and it was a suggestion our producing partner was like we were trying to figure out a song for that moment and we wanted to get the Beatles in it because the Beatles are a big part of the book and Edithia was like tried two of us and we were like I can't believe we didn't think of it and then we tried it was there an alternate that we originally don't let me down at that that's what we built the animatic to And then there was a, but it wasn't the right, wasn't the right mood.
26:43And like the hopefulness and like the, the, like the memory of like, like Paul and John's relationship through the years. And hearing them sing together. Harmonize. It just felt, it just was so. And you and I have memories. Lovely. Exactly. And then he's going home, but his home is wherever Rocky. Yep. It was very fortuitous. Fortuitous. Pleasure as always. Thanks so much indeed, Phil, Chris. Likewise, it's always fun to do this.
27:12Chris Hewitt:Okay, that was Phil Lord and Chris Miller, directors of Project Hail Mary. And now, joining me to wax lyrical about this movie over the next 45 minutes or so are three colleagues of such lethal cunning, none of whom have fisted my bump, Helen O 'Hara. Amaze, amaze, amaze. Hello. Who is so in the tank for this movie. I am basically, I am so in the tank. I am basically astrophage. That's right. She toots to scoot. James Dyer is also here. Hello, Chris. I'm 98 % xenonite, as we speak. Yeah. And Harry Stainer is here. Hello, Chris. I'm here to put the not in astronaut because I've not been to space and I don't plan to.
27:57Okay. He didn't plan to. No, he didn't. One day, I'm going to come up and just syringe you in the neck and you'll wake up with no memory on a ship.
28:05Chris Hewitt:Can we talk about that first of all? What's the abduction? Yeah, usually I talk about general reactions to films and then we ease into talking about key moments. I had not read the Andy Weir book upon which this film is based. I had the choice to. I was interviewing Lord Miller for the magazine and I thought I might read the book to familiarize myself with it. And I thought, no, I want to be surprise-ed by the movie when I see it. And I was surprise-ed because, you know, the movie sets him up as this noble hero who is doing this for the good of mankind and then there's a scene towards the end where you're like oh no he had to be literally abducted and put on the ship there was he was I don't know if cowardice is the right word but he was running for his life at that point and fuck the rest of mankind and that is a really interesting position to put your hero into I would argue I thought that was fantastic because it's a very human response isn't it ultimately Ultimately, none of us particularly want to die.
29:04And that was a death sentence. And yes, it was a death sentence that would get you many statues made and books written about you. High schools named after you. High schools and little benches in parks around the suburbs with your name engraved on them. Stuff like that. All those good things. But ultimately, you would also be dead. And do you want to die and save the world or live for however long the world has left and not? What would you do? Helen, what would you do? You would like to think you'd bravely, nobly go off into space, but I don't think it would be an easy decision. It would not be an easy decision.
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29:38Harry? You know. Oh, I'd be so gone. I'd be out of there. Gone into space? Not quite. I'd be out of that space centre within... There'd be a Harry-shaped hole in the wall. Yeah, yeah. But no, I love that part of it. So I read the book back in 2021. I can't remember where that comes in the book. That is similar. Is it similar? It's a similar time in the book. It is a late...
30:01Chris Hewitt:Because he's discovering these memories as things are triggering these memories for him. But I was really taken by that because that's the sort of thing that you would imagine that a studio, most studios would go, can we lose the part where our hero is a bit of a coward? Towards the end especially, can we do that? And ironically, that would be a very cowardly thing to do. Because actually I think it makes the character so relatable because he feels flawed and that's important. You know, he's like, yes, I will go into space and sacrifice myself nobly for everyone. this makes the sacrifice he chooses to make at the end of the film so much more powerful because he isn't a hero he's a normal guy he is I wouldn't even call him a coward he has cowardly aspects as do we all but in that moment he does the calculus that it's not just about I think it is mainly about his friend but it's not just about his friend it's about his friend's entire species as well and he's like fuck it I'm all in I think it's a replay of the same thing in a way you know he is the first time around he's asked to sacrifice himself for the whole of humanity and he can't do it.
31:03I think part of him wants to, but he just can't. He's just like, I'm not that guy. And he can't conceive of himself as that guy. He knows what that looks like and that's not him in his head. The second time around, I think there's a face, ironically, on... A face without a face. A face without a face on his failure to do it. He didn't really have any particular specific person that he was tied to. Now he has a specific person that he's tied to. He will specifically be choosing to kill Rocky by saving his own life. Yeah. Specifically. And I think that is the difference. And all of Rocky's people.
31:41And all of Rocky's people are... And Adrian as well. Well, yes, yes. Rocky's wife as opposed to the planet. Yeah. Oh. What about Apollo? I don't think they found an Apollo. Apollo presumably was Rocky's great nemesis. I don't know who that was. I don't know who that would be. Someone from school presumably. Who then becomes his great friend. His greatest friend. And they run up a beach together. And whose son he then trains. Yeah. Hang on, this is a... Is there an Ivan Drago in this? I don't know, I feel like we need to assign Rocky's larger peer group to all the characters from the Rocky films.
32:12Well, Ivan Drago would presumably be the Astrophage.
32:15Chris Hewitt:Oh, yeah. I must break it. Yes. Oh, my God. All right, well, that's it. Or maybe the Astrophage is Apollo because it's also got the capacity to be a friend. It's producing clean energy. Yeah. And in the book, am I right in saying, doesn't he eat the astrophage as well? Rocky. No, as in grace. That's what keeps him alive. Because the thing is, the whole point is when he sacrifices himself, he's not just sacrificing going home. All the food on the... Is it iridium? Is it iridium? Erid? Is that the planet? 40 eridani. Right. There. Everything there is toxic to him. So he's thinking, I will starve to death.
32:54There is no food for me where I'm going. Yes. And I believe the solution to the book is to eat the food. But in the film, they have synthetic food.
33:00Chris Hewitt:They make food for him. Yeah, that's what also happens ultimately in the book. It may take a little while, but basically... There's a stopgap. I think there is a stopgap, but basically he is mostly... Basically, he's got a tiny handful of seeds with him, of which they quickly try to replicate and grow and grow and grow and make human-friendly food. There's a lot of the sort of background of Rocky's people and that kind of stuff that is dealt with pretty quickly, obviously, in the film, because you just don't have time. So there is that line, which I heard properly second time around. Helen's seen it twice, by the way.
33:32Chris Hewitt:We've all seen it once, except for Helen. Which is, you know, that basically Rocky's people don't really know about radiation, the dangers of radiation, because they're essentially rocks. Yeah, that was really interesting to me. Yeah, they live on a planet with a very thick atmosphere, and I guess their sun isn't quite as powerful or whatever. So they haven't really... This has been their first foray really into space. They haven't had to deal with radiation. They've never sort of had a Marie Curie die of cancer. So they haven't had, they just weren't prepared for that. So that's why everyone else dies on his ship because they haven't shielded anything.
34:06They've just been climbing about.
34:07Chris Hewitt:That's really interesting. The idea that they don't know about radiation. They don't know about the theory of relativity necessarily. Yet they're so advanced. They're advanced way beyond humanity. And yet there are these two almost crucial, tiny little but really really important building blocks that they've kind of just missed i think you know relativity is relativity is a more recent discovery for them and some of this has you know the death of their son has forced them to work real quickly um to catch up on a few concepts that we maybe have established earlier but we haven't had the same physical prowess that they've had harry did you uh understand all the science stuff um did you science the shit out of it's interesting because I think this compared to say The Martian which is another why would you make that comparison another Andy Weir book I feel like that film is so so caught up in the science of it all in terms of like fuck yeah Matt Damon's growing potatoes on Mars like so much of that with his own shit with his own shit yeah and everybody else's I was going to say it wasn't just his but yeah you're so caught up in like that film is so much of watching really intelligent people doing really like great things with their minds and trying to save this man.
35:19I feel like this film swaps some of that stuff out for the relationship between Grace and Rocky, and I 100 % think that is the right decision for this film because by the time the third act comes around, everything that's happening to them you are holding on to because you just want them to be okay. But it is a different, definitely a different direction because the film still, sorry, the book still has a lot of that science-y stuff in, and I think the film kind of
35:43Chris Hewitt:negates some of that. Did you understand everything? Because I'll be honest, I've only seen the film once, I need to see it a second time and I roughly knew what was happening because I read the Wikipedia entry for the book. Oh my gosh. And now I bought the book and I'm reading the book and the book is very, very good. But did you understand everything? Because initially, first time around for me, all the stuff with the astrophage and the tomoebas and all that sort of stuff, I was like, oh, I'm not entirely sure why the man has to do the thing with the thing. It's very well told by Lorde Miller, but there were a couple of things that I didn't quite understand.
36:16But again, I am very stupid. It's the Talmiba he eats, not the Astrophage. The Talmiba he eats. Sorry, that's where I got confused. So many little organisms. Right. Yeah. You can't eat an Astrophage. That's ridiculous, Helen. Why would you suggest such a thing? He was glazed in honey. Why would he get honey? Come on, think it through. Rocky wouldn't make it for him. Astrobees. Astrobees. Yeah. I was saying, as I understood it all, it was only when we started going to the third act and there's the mission that they're doing where he's going out onto the top of the ship where I was a little bit like so caught up with the Rocky and Grace relationship I was just kind of like wait a minute what where are we what's actually happening here and I do think the film does kind of skip over a few little beats with that so again it's clearer on a second viewing I would say so he's pulling out those thingies out of the box on top of the ship it's clearer she says using the word thingies immediately oh yes okay they've got a box They put a box on top of the ship, which has collection plates, essentially, in it.
37:16And they get into the Petrova line, and they measure how many astrophages are going to the planet and how many are coming back from the planet, right? Right. From Adrian. And they find out it's the same number, and it shouldn't be. It should be more coming back from the planet, because that's where they're going to spawn. So if they're not increasing their numbers coming back from the planet, that means something is eating them on the planet which is what of course is fine. A natural predator. So that's what they find so that's when they know the Taomibas are there and that's what gives them hope.
37:50Chris Hewitt:And then they get the Taomibas and they engineer the Taomibas but Grace doesn't reckon on them. Yeah, this is a whole bit in the book which again they did very, very quickly on screen because at that point you feel like okay, we've got them now. We need to go home. It feels like the movie's ending. It feels like the movie's ending and all we're waiting for is Rocky to wake up hopefully. right so but they he basically the taumibas the atmosphere on adrian has no nitrogen in it and of course our atmosphere is like 70 nitrogen i guess mercury or whatever is or is it venus which whichever one that's going to is also has nitrogen in it venus so venus so they need it to survive that atmosphere so he needs to engineer the taumiba to survive more nitrogen than they have hitherto done.
38:34So that's what he does while he's waiting for Rocky to wake up is he's engineering them to survive in nitrogen-rich atmospheres. And because he uses the xenonite stuff, they evolve to consume the xenonite. Yeah, so that's the problem. And I guess this, by the way, he knows more about Rocky's, the composition of Rocky's relevant planets at that point as well. So he knows that that's needed for Rocky's world as well. And it's been a couple of weeks since I've seen it. I've only seen it once what was the deal with the anchor slash fishing that was to collect the mebers the tau mebers it was fishing for it was fishing for tau mebers I remember understanding the rest of it I just remember that point in the film and also I will add at this point I was just so ride or die for I was just like I love you and I don't want anything bad to happen so I was all in but I do remember afterwards being like did I actually fully understand that bit
39:28Chris Hewitt:I need to see it again I'm going to see it this weekend I'm going to take the wife and hopefully all those bits will make them clear. Harry, I love the fact you put your hand up like you were in school there. Helen was talking about it and Harry literally raised his hand. I had a question. Miss, miss. And Helen answered it very well. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. So we're 15 minutes in. What did you think of the movie? I know what you thought of it. Hells will come to you in a second. Jimbo, what did you think? Yeah, it was fine. Yeah, okay. It is fantastic. When you were talking about this when we were doing it on the regular podcast and the discussion between four or five was being had i i i'm i can't decide i'm between the two i think i don't think i disagree with a five but if i were reviewing it would i have given it a five i don't know either way it's very very good it's very good i loved it but for me the core of it is it was a combination it's a combination of hard sci-fi and i quite geek out on that i do quite enjoy the kind of science bitch aspect of this like it's just inherently entertaining and because it feeds into the whole competence porn, of which Andy Witt does very, very well, people using science to do incredibly cool things under adverse conditions.
40:34You don't want your porn to be competent. I mean... Like, when you're watching actual porn... I'd rather watch that than incompetent porn. Yeah, I don't know what the attraction is there. No, I'm not... The cameras falling over, they're filming the wall. That's a foot. What the fuck?
40:47Chris Hewitt:You can't get it in. We were all thinking it. Nobody needs incompetent porn. I wasn't asking for incompetent porn. Stuck us on the lens. If you watch your porn, you want it to be a level or two above competence. I zoned out for 20 seconds. I came back in and was like, what the? I mean, that's what happened in incompetent porn, to be fair. Harry's put his hand up going, I do not know. So we're talking about porn now? I didn't sign on for this shit. Yeah. I don't even know what I was saying at this point. You said you enjoyed the competence porn. I did enjoy the competence porn. But for me, much like Harry, it was all about the relationship.
41:22You got two hours into the film and I'm like, would die for Rocky at this point. Yeah. and when there's a chance where you think Rocky might be dead tears upset sadness unamaze unamaze unamaze bad bad bad bad bad yeah Harry what did you think so I saw this I saw this with James you did a few weeks ago that's true and this was like the rare film that I came out like giddy afterwards we were walking back afterwards and I felt like James was kind of looking at me like shut the fuck up I mean that's my default position oh yeah to be fair but no I just adored this I think it's the kind of feeling I got after something after Everything Everywhere all at once where I just come out so confused about the film mainly because I loved Grace and Rocky but also I just love that there was this big sci-fi film that has a lot of big ideas and has a big budget but there was also just a sweetness and an earnestness to all of it that I just feel like so much of the big sci-fi films we do love Dune but also very Mardi very Mardi as a whole You wouldn't die for anyone in Dune?
42:26I would die for everyone in June what are you talking about? Lisan Al-Gaib! Maybe the one but I just found out Maybe Chani? I don't know. Yeah, maybe. But at the end of this I was just like God, it reminded me of like classic Spielberg where at the end of it I was just like so won over by it it was so sweet and I just came out feeling all warm inside and I just feel like we don't get big sci-fi films like that anymore. No, I loved it.
42:50Chris Hewitt:I thought it was I thought I loved it with some caveats and I think those caveats are going to be ironed out by my second viewing because I went in expecting a five-star razzle-dazzle movie. This is going to be the best movie of the year, hands down, until December 18th. Did you say pants down? No, hands down. The best movie, pants down. We're back to incompetent porn again. Well, actually, no, that would be competent porn, wouldn't it? It's true. Pants are up. You are definitely doing it wrong. Anyway, no, hands down. Hands down. Hands down. And I really, really loved it, but there were just a couple of things holding me back.
43:26Chris Hewitt:but at the same time I was sitting there watching it going I think I'm seeing a Best Picture nominee from next year and if it might even be the Best Picture winner I wasn't, so weirdly I don't know that it's a nailed on Best Picture nominee and certainly not Best Picture winner, it doesn't have that maybe air of seriousness that I associate with some of that because even something like A Sinner's which is incredibly crowd pleasing and incredibly entertaining has a lot more kind of maybe layers to it. Lamination, if you're using the croissant analogy that Ryan Coogler did this week, then maybe this one does.
44:03But it is just so good-hearted. It's so techno-optimistic without being blind, you know, to like all the sort of AI nonsense that's happening at the moment. It's not engaging with any of that. It's just getting back to old school sci-fi. we can make the world better living through technology kind of an idea. And I just really like that because it has so much heart, because it has so much humor. I read some quite sneery reviews saying that it had too much humor, that it was too glib, it was too eager to please. I don't think it was at all. I think that's wrong. And I think there is humor. People make jokes at funerals.
44:44People laugh in the worst possible conditions because that's how you deal with it.
44:48Chris Hewitt:People do 10-minute eulogies. And I think that's how we get through things as humans. And it makes sense to me that you would laugh and you would try to make jokes and be silly in those circumstances. I don't even think it's a comedy. It's not even close to that comedy. It's funny. It's very funny, but he's not yucking it up at the wrong moments. He's not. He's just, that's the guy that he is. He sort of makes little jokes and makes little pop culture references and has misunderstandings with this alien and sort of laughs about it, even if he's only laughing to himself because the alien doesn't understand what the fucking point is.
45:25It's just very charming that way and very human. So I was just all in. I thought it was going to be good. I didn't go in expecting best film of the year. I really liked the book. I expected to like it. I didn't expect to love it to the degree that I do. I think without the comedy, The comedy, I think, is the glue that makes the character dynamic at the heart of it work. I think without that, this could feel like a Christopher Nolan film. No, I don't think it's a bad way, but I mean, it could feel quite clinical and cold. Like, you could feel, because there's a lot of science in here. There's a lot of, you know, quote-unquote plot going on.
45:59But I think you need character moments in there. You need to be invested in this more than it's saving the human race. You need to love these characters, and you need them to live at all costs. And I think that's where we are at the end of it. it's less about saving the sun and it's more about saving Rocky well there it is it's a callback
46:20Chris Hewitt:I'd like to say the sun as well though absolutely which brings us to another dilemma alright so Grace makes a choice at the end as you said he has a choice to go back to Earth at which point Rocky and everyone on what's the name of the planet again 40 Eridani that's the name of the sun so I think he goes with Erid for the planet. Yeah. Okay, yes, Ered. So everyone on Ered will die, Rocky will die, but everyone on Earth will live and you will be a hero forevermore. What would you do? I mean, again, I feel like you have to hope that you would choose to save an entire civilization. I feel like that's a hell of a choice.
47:00Chris Hewitt:You have no guarantee that those little missiles will make it back to Earth. But also, I think the deck is weighted. Can you weigh a deck? You can't weigh a deck, but you know what I mean. I think at this point, You can load a deck. You can load a deck. I think at this point, he has already made his peace with dying because he expected to die and then Rocky offered him hope. So I think it's less of a lurch for him to go from I'm going to save myself to I'm going to sacrifice myself. I think at this point, he'd already baked in a little bit of self-sacrifice, whether it was willing or not. And so, yeah.
47:31And also, at this point, he loves Rocky. He loves Rocky. And I think also, he has launched four probes for Earth, John Paul George and Ringo he has made every effort to save Earth you know he has no guarantee that he will survive to Earth either so it's not a clear cut I will definitely survive and thrive if I go this way and I'm definitely going to die that way it's a little bit murkier than that but he doesn't the one thing he does know for a certain sure is that Rocky and all of Rocky's peoples depend on him going that way question because you're absolutely right because the others didn't survive the journey out.
48:08Why didn't they survive the journey out? Do we ever find out? No, I think in the book it's literally just like it's imperfect technology, isn't it? So there was a very real chance he wasn't going to survive going back to not wake him up. I don't know that he can put himself fully back to sleep either. I don't know. Because he does for part of the journey and he gets woken up on the way back. It's like your alarm clock goes off at 3am. You're like, what the fuck? What's happened now? Because in the book I don't think it's ever on the way back, isn't it? Because it's the same, isn't it? He sleeps for part of it and then gets woken up in the book as well.
48:36But I don't know if it's sleep as in coma. I think it might be sleep as in just sleep. Just having a nap. Yeah, I don't know that he can put himself back in the coma and that he has the right kind of food and nourishment for that to get home. How long is the trip? I can't remember. To be fair, I read the book a couple of years ago. Is it 30 years? No, it was like, I think it was like, well, I think it's something like 10 or 11 years. It's 11 years to get a message back to Earth. So that's at light speed. the idea being so it can have taken much more than that also it was only going to be 30 years until the earth like lost most of its people so it's was there any discussion about how fast this ship goes because it's not it was meant to get up close to relativistic speeds because of the power of the astrophage but obviously you've got to accelerate up and then slow down so what I was going to mention to you is the book cuts back to earth more because there's the stuff with the ice caps so the book comes back to earth at the same time contemporaneously worse on earth so that's another kind of like pressure point whereas this kind of gets rid of all that but I think once again it's better off for it because so much of it is focused on Grace and Rocky that I think in this version it would feel a bit almost tacked on because then you've got geographic shifts as well as temporal shifts and that becomes narratively a bit confusing which I really like the little flashbacks but who doesn't love a bit Harry Styles karaoke I mean, that's just great.
50:02I mean, that's fantastic. And also just Sandra Huller as Strat is so good. I loved her so much as well, because I feel like she treads the exact right line between being caring and not giving a shit. The consensus is we prefer you not die. Yeah. But I think that, you know, she cannot afford to care too much about anybody, including herself, and yet, you know, she's human and she can't help like caring a little bit and let's be honest probably fancying Ryan Gosling but you know she's still having to make the right decisions and just absolutely 100 % commit to every single one she makes I think that's quite a like quite a hard character to do as well like it's such a yeah like a fine line of like she's not she's not evil but the choices she especially one of the choices she makes regarding Grace is like quite harsh but there is like a coldness to her but you don't think she's out and out like nasty at any point and I quite like that about her and if you watch her in that scene she really she really cares she's wrestling with it it's Spock logic
51:09Chris Hewitt:the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one absolutely because I think she's one of the reasons that he doesn't have anyone to hold on to there's the there's the minder Carl is it? yeah and then there's this burgeoning relationship with Strat that I think he almost puffs up to be more than it is or the potential of what it might be because there is chemistry between them, there is a connection between the two of them. And that might be one of the reasons why he runs away, he decides he doesn't want to be on the Hail Mary in the first place. And she is also balancing that up as well, I think you can see.
51:47Chris Hewitt:So it's actually a very clear-headed decision that she takes at the end. In terms of the timeline of the movie, So we see an older Strat at the end of the film having received Grace's probes. Steady. We're back to Incompton.
52:07Chris Hewitt:And clearly then they're on the road to saving the sun and everything's going to be okay. But if she's older, I'd say she's, what, 30 years older? Yeah. At that point, because at that point the sun has begun to dim to the point where there's almost an ice age around the entire planet. So 15 years, 15 there, 15 back? I think it's got to be pretty much 15 each way. And I think that's why months mattered in terms of launching the Hail Mary. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in the book it says 16 years have passed. When you see him on Arid, it's 16 years later. 16 years after he made the choice to save Rocky.
52:44And it takes a long time. And it's basically in the book, at the end of the book, the sort of Arid astronomers are reporting that a soul is getting brighter, like our sun is getting brighter, like they can now see. And I think there might even be a message from Earth at that point in the book. Because there's a note it ends on, which is like, and the book does this as well, where it's like, you can potentially go back if you want to, and then it goes to him teaching the class. Can I think about it? Yeah. And he seems to be having a pretty good time, so I don't know if he will. Although the book goes a bit more into the near starvation and the difficulties of trying to survive for long enough, which they don't really do here.
53:23Chris Hewitt:They had waived a little bit. But yeah, he's had a great time on there. Would you leave? What would you do? Let's have another dilemma. This is a podcast full of dilemmas. What would you do? I don't know, like a whole life of just hanging out with your bro on the beach. He is living in a biodome though. I mean, but you're with your homies. With Stephen Baldwin and Pauly Shore. What a life. That's literally what's happening. Look, I'm not saying it's ideal, James, but he has risked his life for his mate and I feel like at that point, I'm like, ah, it's quite a nice line. They're also more attentive students, I would say.
53:53Yeah, they seem really keen on him. But then, you know, if you were like, you can be taught by one of your own kind, or this alien, you'd be like, I'll say the alien, cool. I do wonder if also, as far as he knows, the chances of surviving an artificially induced coma for long enough to get home are approximately one in three. He may not want to take those odds. That's a very good point. And sorry, that's also from Tau Ceti. He's now further away. He's further away.
54:23Chris Hewitt:But surely the technology of Rocky's people would mean he has a better chance of surviving the trip back. But you've still got relativistic time to deal with, and it would still be a long time. I don't know how many of those people are going to be alive by the time he gets back to Earth. No one. He's going to get back, and they're all going to be dead, but he's going to be still fated as a hero, right? he's going to have he's going to have free library books for the rest of his life he's already got that yeah where on Ered yeah oh yeah he's fed it as a hero there but if he wants to go like if he wants to go I want to go to the Maldives he can't do that they can probably reprogram he's got the Maldives on his doorstep yeah he's living on a hollow deck he's missed so many episodes of Law and Order SVU 2099 they can broadcast those into space oh can they this is incredible All right, I'd stay.
55:13Do you know what? I would watch the Law and Order Arid spinoff, where it's just Iridians doing Law and Order. That would be amazing. That would be amazing. It'd be more of a thump-thump, wouldn't it? Because they're, you know, rocks. Very good. Also, he didn't have much on Earth. At the end of this film, he has a pal on Earth. He didn't really have much.
55:29Chris Hewitt:Billy no mates. Billy no mates. Listen, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to add to my reputation as the prince of puerile humor, but presumably he hasn't seen any porn, competent or otherwise, for many, many years. Would that be a reason to go back? You mean he hasn't been getting his rocks off? Oh, boy. Don't. That is disrespectful to Rocky. Are we slash fictioning here? Oh, no. They cut a lot from the film. Iridian porn would be something else. It would just be like, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. How would you know what was happening? I just don't think it would work for him. No? He did say that the laptop contained the entire sum of human knowledge.
56:10I'm just saying, on the computers on the ships, they've uploaded a lot of stuff.
56:14Chris Hewitt:I don't think they've uploaded the entirety of human knowledge. Do you think they, oh my God, are we on there? Oh my God. Yes, every episode of the podcast. Do we count as human knowledge? We may count as incompetent porn. So if you're listening to this and you know nothing about science, you know no, you know, competent. If you're listening to this and you know nothing about science, you know more now than you did before you started listening to the podcast. Is it right? No. But you know more. So therefore, we are a... We're like Professor Brian Cox. Right. We are part of that sentence.
56:52Chris Hewitt:Anywho, listen, we've got about 10 minutes left. So tell me other things you liked about this movie. Harry. It takes a lot for me to cry at a film. And I teared up multiple times during this. Really? And one of the times was... Rocky's fake death? Yeah, that was one of them. And then the Harry Styles scene with the karaoke. Just because I thought it was really moving. I'd never heard that song. It's a tune. It's one of the first songs he released when he split from One Direction. The Empire listeners will not care about this. Of course they will. Of course they will. You don't know that. But what an amazing use of that song.
57:28I've never heard it used in a film or anything before, but also in what she's saying and applying it to the mission they're about to go on. and it is the one moment in the film where like that character feels like she does something very kind because all of the crew kind of get a bit of a kick out of seeing her do the song live and I just found it very emotional and as I sat behind James crying I was just like God he was going die humans die he kept on swearing at the screen it was really weird we're going to save everyone damn it but then that and the near rocky death both really got to me and you knew it was a near death I thought it was a real death I thought he was a goner
58:04Chris Hewitt:I thought he was a goner when he's like smoking us he's like the atmosphere is corroding him and the steam and he's trying desperately but the cons are such a thing yeah wonderful like Chev Chelios and E.T. he gets better he does he does which is good he recovers from death I was worried that they were going to change the ending a bit to sort of speed things up or something I thought that maybe you know for example maybe when he when they are on the mission on the planet and fishing for Taomibas, that the ship, the Hail Mary, was going to take such a hit that he would have to go with Rocky home, you know, that he wouldn't be able to try to go home himself.
58:43I thought they were going to maybe do something like that because they were taking so much damage and I got really, really stressed out that, oh no, they're not, you know, it's not going to work. They're going to have to change the end. And I love that ending because, as we discussed, like he has to make the decision. He has to make the sacrifice play. And so I was a bit worried about changes like that happening. I obviously knew Rocky was going to survive, but still, it makes you really worry. They might have changed that.
59:07Chris Hewitt:You never know. Although it is a very faithful adaptation, according to Wikipedia. It is, yeah. Oh, good Lord. No, it is very faithful. But when first watching it, I genuinely had those moments of, oh, no, maybe they're going to change a few things. I didn't think they were going to kill Rocky, though, because I refuse. People have moaned about the length of the ending. It's an ending too many, which I very much disagree with. I saw a tweet that was like, it challenges Return of the King in terms of endings. And I was like, oh, come on. It wraps the film up very nicely. There's two endings. There's two endings.
59:38Chris Hewitt:What the fuck are they talking about? There are like 25 minutes of endings in Return of the King. Yeah, I don't get that at all. But another big emotional moment is when Rocky wakes up. Also, I thought it was very, very nicely done. The hug. The little hug. It was so sweet. Oh, the hug. What is happening? What is happening? What's happening? Oh, so good. can we give a shout out to Meryl Streep please this is what I was talking about a couple of weeks ago when we said that her role in Hoppers is her second best voice role of the month this is her best voice performance of the month wait wait wait is it was it actually it was actual Meryl Streep actual Meryl Streep I just assumed they'd got someone who sounded a bit like her that's incredible actual Meryl Streep just to do one line it's amazing she really can't do anything yeah very good indeed while we're giving shout outs let's give a shout out to James Ortiz and his incredible team who puppeteered Rocky and James Ortiz also provides Rocky's voice which again is you know a very very interesting bold decision on the part of Lorda Miller you know you can imagine again the studio going no that's got to be that's got to be George Clooney that's got to be a big recognizable name it's like no no no it's the guy who puppeteers this puppet who's going to be on set with Ryan Gosling.
1:00:59Chris Hewitt:Plus, it's a fucking puppet for most of the time. So we want that on-set reaction. We want someone to actually interact with Ryan Gosling on actual sets because again, very few green screen sets on this movie. They built the Hail Mary. Incredible technical achievement. It's really impressive. There's an Adam Savage visit. He visited the sets and the Mythbusters. Yeah, there's a video up of him talking to the production designer and just talking about the fact that the sets of course had to work in sort of different alignments. So it has to work in sort of zero G, it has to work in centrifugal gravity, and it has to work in the other one, I forget.
1:01:43Anyway, but it's literally three different alignments that things have to sort of play in and it made it very, very complicated for them. There's also a little sort of fake set set up in foils on the Charing Cross Road if you're in London. you can go and sit in the chair and swing around the cockpit. Oh, I know. I'm doing that.
1:02:03Chris Hewitt:But yeah, it's a great achievement. It's really well directed. It's been, as I said, 12 years since 22 Jump Street. Obviously, they had their ill-fated dalliance, shall we say, with Solo, where they were replaced during production. And that's interesting because that movie, all the rumors and reports about that have posited the idea that they were perhaps being too improvisational they were perhaps leaning too much on humor as a crutch and that doesn't seem to be the case here, this seems to be a very tightly scripted movie there's comedy in it but it's not a comedy so I don't know but it seems to me that maybe their experience in Solo has actually stood them in good stead and prepared them for this movie, which is a bit more emotional and a bit more earnest than things we're used to from them.
1:02:56I think they've got on record about that, saying they learned quite a lot from that production in terms of the improvisation and stuff. But one thing I was going to say, it's so like, I can't see the improvisation because some of the shots in it, there's a shot in the beginning where he's on the spaceship and he's framed in the top corner upside down and it hard cuts to him in the classroom in the exact same position. And I was like, this feels so planned out as a film, even between the flashbacks and I was just like, maybe between Ryan and Rocky there was some improvisation, but in terms of how it's edited and how it's shot, it feels so tight, even at two hours and 40.
1:03:31I think as well, those beautiful sideways shots for the transitions into and out of Flashback were pretty cool, but also the... I think it's just a good fit for them. I think Andy Weir's tone is just a really, really good fit for what they do and what they have done since, you know, 2021, 22 Jump Street onwards. Because, you know, those are very funny films, but there is a core relationship there. And, you know, what they've done, like the Spider-Verse films, they're really flashy, they're really showy, they're really funny, they're incredible pieces of animation. But there is also real emotion there as well as the humor.
1:04:09And I think it has all kind of built up and built up. So this just feels like a very, very good fit of subject matter for them in terms of its humor, in terms of its kind of taking the mission seriously but not the person too seriously. I also think Ryan Gosling's great in this. Really, really good. And if you see him in the press tour, he is all in on Rocky as a person on this film. He is more committed than I have seen him, I think, ever.
1:04:37Chris Hewitt:Really? He's a good asset to have, I would say, because he really does commit to the marketing campaigns, I think. He's only making really one movie a year, but once you get him, you get him. That's true. Yeah. I think this is La La Land poster recently with Rocky because he didn't like how his hand was. This has been a whole thing, the La La Hand. His hand was at a slight angle on the poster. It should have been straight with his arm. Has it reframed your opinion of the movie, Helen? You're a noted La La Land hater. I would like La La Land more if it starred Rocky. It's already got a stone in it.
1:05:09Chris Hewitt:What do you want? You want a rock? Well done, well done. Thank you. but I yeah I still don't 100 % love La La Land but anyway that's fine you can be wrong from time to time I can be right yeah and in this case I mean very wrong very very wrong but anyway okay anything else real quick before we wrap this bad boy up and inject it with astrophage I still don't know what they do I'll be honest I need to look at the film they eat sun they eat sun the energy of the sun they expel it the power of the sun and the power of my hand they expel it as infrared light as they travel from sun to sun and from sun to planet to breed.
1:05:46Chris Hewitt:They toot to scoot. They do, admittedly. What's their deal? Why are they doing this? That's just how they live. They have no mind. It's not like... It's not a conspiracy. This is just what they do. They're not evil geniuses. They're just hungry. And this is happening to our son right now. They're hungry and horny. No, Chris, this is a film. It's fiction. Oh, okay. As far as we know. Right, okay. How does the porn fit into it? Sorry, I'm very confused. Okay. All right. You have to go to Venus for that. When an astrophage and an astrophage love each other very much, they go to Venus. Head to Venus.
1:06:19Chris Hewitt:Oh, my word. Goddess of love, baby. Astrophage, you're from Venus. Astrophage, you're also from Venus. I signed out for 20 seconds again and you're talking about it. I know. It's happened about porn again. Yeah. This has been very confusing. Yeah, nothing's going to help you now, Harry. I'm afraid you're in the maw of this podcast. There's no escaping the gravity of this podcast now. anything else real quick? I want one of the Project Hail Mary t-shirts I'm just putting that out in the universe those things are gorgeous with the sort of semi-rainbow across the middle oh, yummy oh hey, we should say by the way a lot of the artwork for this movie which is really, really beautiful designed by our buddy Ollie Gibbs formerly of this parish very, very talented designer and so I just wanted to give a shout out to Ollie yeah, his posters are amazing for this I mean, he's done some great great work since leaving us well even before leaving us but this is special oh my goodness no I hope they're paying him a lot of money not least for because he still owes me the winnings from last Saturday's poker night so
1:07:26fuck you
1:07:27Chris Hewitt:pay me Chris can ask him at their next bogey boy's hiding and on that bombshell I think that's it for our Project Hail Mary reaction podcast thank you for subscribing as ever I hope you enjoyed this and all that remains now to say goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning. Goodbye, Harry Stainer. Goodbye. Goodbye, James Dyer. See ya. Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara. Okay, you can't see me, but I'm rubbing my knuckles up and down my arm. Wait, fist my bump. Now, that really is incompetent porn. In incompetent porn, they do fist your bump. Yeah. It goes horribly, horribly wrong from there. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
1:08:07Chris Hewitt:Amaze, amaze, amaze. it's time go that's my evening yes it is time go that's my evening viewing sort of thank you so much for listening see you next time goodbye
From the publisher
Project Hail Mary marks the return to live-action big-screen directing of Lord & Miller, aka Phil Lord and Chris Miller, and it's worth the decade-long wait. A joyous triumph that has become a huge hit with audiences everywhere, it's the story of Ryan Gosling's Ryland Grace, who teams up with a lovable alien called Rocky, in an attempt to save both their planets from destruction. In this spoiler special, Chris Hewitt first sits down with Lord and Miller for a deep dive into the film's key moments and thematic preoccupations, and then he's joined in the podbooth by Helen O'Hara, James Dyer, and Harry Stainer to discuss their own thoughts and feelings about the movie. In short: amaze amaze amaze. Enjoy!