Spider-Man: Brand New Day — The First Spoiler Special

22:46So there's a sort of a mutual aid thing, even though Peter is completely unconscious. But that's what's... Don't raise your hand at me. It all makes perfect sense. Or none of it does.

22:58Chris Hewitt:Why... Okay. why is Peter or Frank or Peter and Frank battling to protect a secret identity that means nothing to anyone maybe habit in Peter's case maybe it's an expression of hope for his future I don't know maybe it is genuinely there's a sort of remnant of the spell that just makes people not care again about his identity and he's just like, well, what's the fucking point? Like, I'll just... I don't know, Chris. I know. It's like, again, this feels like I'm nitpicking. I am nitpicking a little bit, of course, but it just feels like that whole thing where he goes to see Yelena and he won't take his mask off.

23:43Chris Hewitt:It's like, well, what the fuck do you care whether she sees your face because you don't have an identity? It's funnier, though. It is funny. It is funny with the mask on. Can we talk about Frank for a minute? Yes. A wooga, because I thought he would be... He would be a cameo. Oh, okay. I really didn't think he was going to be in it nearly this much. I thought maybe like a scene or two at the beginning, a scene or two at the end, nothing else. And he's actually the closest thing to a friend. He's the... That Peter has for most of the movie. Yeah, he's the big name Marvel supporting star, and it's Banner and Yelena who are the cameos in this.

24:20Yeah. I don't know. I didn't expect that. I liked their odd couple energy. I can kind of see why I suspect that Bernthal felt a little bit defang, declawed, as this version of the Punisher. And I suspect that might be, just speculating here, why he felt the need to make one last kill around the same time. But at the same time, I quite enjoy this declawed version. Me too. I thought the odd couple energy really worked. It really, really worked. Like, there could not be anything more Unpunisher-like than his final minutes in this movie, when he's just goofing off for the crowd in a Spider-Man mask.

25:05But goddamn it, I loved it.

25:09Chris Hewitt:The chef's kiss of that is when you cut to inside the hospital room and he's still grunting in that very frank way. There's a bit where he just grunts at someone, which just made me laugh. made my laugh made my laugh made me laugh so much but I think that's one third of why the screenplay for this is actually really really smart because we were talking me and you Chris about just this film being overstuffed with the amount of plates it had to spin the amount of stuff it had to serve in a satisfying way I think the choice for having Punisher and Hulk in this movie especially and even Jean Grey they are all battling a similar thing to what Peter is going through.

25:56And so everything dovetails into that Peter storyline, which makes everything not feel overstuffed. So with Punisher, it's kind of like a bad omen of what Peter might become if he continues on this bad path. With Hulk, it's the spider mutation and Hulk trying to sort of help him out and figure a way out of that. With Jean Grey, it's the grief of having lost someone which comes into play in a really beautiful emotional way in that final act all of that is a part of what Peter is battling so it doesn't feel as overstuffed as it might have done if they were all on separate arcs I think that's really really smart because it means that the people who are in this film aren't just in for kicks and cameos and fun action scenes they're actually in it for plot and character reasons

26:41Chris Hewitt:only maybe the Yelena I think is kind of oh that's deploying a big name I'm glad she's in it as well because I think this marks her fourth appearance now on an MCU property and clearly she's going to be a big part of Doomsday so this is what the MCU should have been doing for all of the films in terms of because we've been talking about Yelena being one of the pillars of the MCU going forward this is how you treat a pillar of the MCU you have her in big films like this and then have her in a big Avengers film so yeah that's working for me still think Shang-Chi should have been in Thunderbolt I agree anyway where's Kate Bishop?

27:15Chris Hewitt:Kate Bishop where's Miss Marvel? I think she was last seen hitching a lift with Ms. Marvel aboard the Eternals rocket ship which is a real shame she's really cool what do we think about the ending and the post-credits sting so the ending I'm thinking specifically bits like Jean Grey on a bus I feel like it's coded that she's going upstate Westchester yes because she's just like I feel like that's one of those roads out of New York that goes upstate through those woods. Into the leafy glaze. Into the leafy, like, and the fact that it's like autumnal colors, that's very, like, Westchester coded to me.

27:57I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

27:59Chris Hewitt:I thought it might have ended with, like, a shot of her going up to the mansion or something like that. Or, I heard about this school for gifted youngsters. Yeah, I thought it was fine. I liked, um, I, I, I don't know how I felt about the fact that Jean was heavily rumored from the minute Sadie Sink was cast because I can't tell whether that shows a lack of imagination on fans' parts because they just go, oh, redhead, Jean Grey. And then they were right or not. But she's very, very good in the role. I think once she's revealed to be Jean Grey, it does defang that character a little bit because before she's revealed as Jean, she's a genuinely interesting adversary for Peter.

28:45Chris Hewitt:you know that sort of the hidden slash fallen way of jumping between bodies is really creepy and beautifully choreographed lots of whip hands yep and what are the motives of this character what does this character really want why can't they get into Peter's mind that's because he's the hero of the film and it would be over in five minutes spider stuff spider stuff I think yeah it's interesting because in in the comics Hulk is also kind of very difficult for people to get into. Because they can't get past that anger, basically. They can't get past the anger. It's like there's a supernatural side to Hulk that has been not really tapped, certainly not in the big screen.

29:28Chris Hewitt:So the fact that she's not able to get into Peter's mind, but is very easily able to bypass Banner was interesting to me. She's able to bypass Banner's mind when he goes full Hulk mode. She tries to control Hulk and Hulk is having none of it. That is true. That's very true. That's a good point. well although he is banging away at the wall under her control first I think that's Professor Hulk that's Banner Hulk is it? because that's only when the thing comes off at that point yeah okay okay and then once he becomes Savage Hulk I mean that's not really Savage Hulk is it because it's still it's the mindless brute Hulk but it's still not Savage Hulk we've only really seen that in that amazing Johannesburg sequence in Age of Ultron still one of my favourite sequences in the MCU go to sleep go to sleep go to sleep go to sleep go to sleep I'm sorry there's so many great beats in that moment alone I said it before I will say it again Avengers Age of Ultron is underrated and I would say it's better than the first Avengers film I know that that is a hot take that is a hot take but I said it like I really like the first Avengers film it is the weakest Avengers film we've gotten that's a Helen how do you feel about the hot take I don't know if I can I don't know if I can go with that alright okay I'm going to take some time to process that I love Age of Ultron I think it's probably Age of Ultron is a better made film possibly with a weaker screenplay I don't know I've been thinking about it a lot because I'm writing a feature that incorporates that film shall we say and there's a lot of really beautifully written dialogue scenes the vision in Ultron scene at the end brilliant I was born yesterday all right okay well this is a Spider-Man brand new day spoiler I like that idea I like that thought we'll get back to it in a second and I am the one who brought up Age of Ultron of course but yeah Jean before we get to the ending I think Jean I think Sadie sings great in this I don't watch Stranger Things I'm not familiar with her work she's great I like the fact that her casting alone hints at where they're going to go with the X-Men going forward I think it partly hints and I think part of the outcome for her character this time hints that they really haven't cast the rest of the X-Men because I think if they cast their new Professor X I think we would have heard a voice in her head I think we would have had something I really don't think they've found them yet yeah Gene this is Denzel Washington can you can you hear me I think Denzel's too old now you want Denzel's Professor X he's been rumoured hasn't he that's interesting he has been rumoured Ooh, I love that.

32:10Well, I mean, that wouldn't make sense though because Ryan Krugler is casting Denzel in Black Panther 3. I know, I know. That was rumored a while ago.

32:18Chris Hewitt:I'm just thinking of people, but I think they're going to have a... They're building an X-Men team that can age with the new MCU, right? So that they're going to cast people who, you know, 10 years from now will still be in their mid-30s. What they have at the moment in the MCU is perhaps Tom Holland aside and maybe one or two others, they have a bunch of dudes in their late 40s and early 50s and in some cases even early 60s. And I wonder that they're wondering that that may not be attractive to young audiences now. Maybe some young audiences, I've heard this anecdotally from friends who've got like 12, 13, 14, 15-year-old kids that they've just kind of detached a little bit from the MCU and they'll come out for things like Brand New Day but they won't come out for Thunderbolts.

33:10Chris Hewitt:They won't come out for Fantastic Four, but they'll come out for the big stuff. So if you cast like a 40-something Professor X Magneto and then genuinely, you know, teens and 20s, that would make sense. That would make sense to me. They're going to make them do it until they're 90. Matt Smith. Matt Smith. He's Mr. Sinister. I can see that. I can absolutely see that. This next question is very on brand for me. No. Okay. Is it about the score? No. Although, I mean, Helen, if you want to talk about the score, go nuts. Jean Grey. Jean Grey. I really liked what Sadie Sink did with the character. I'm still going back and forth because it feels like she was killing some folk in her adversarial stage.

34:02And that's an interesting way to debut a character like that. I think the film is very careful to not do that. To not show that happening.

34:13Chris Hewitt:I don't think she at any point, same with The Punisher. The Punisher doesn't kill a single person in this movie. I think if we go back on a second viewing, you look at there's a lot of damage caused and she does things like walk MJ off a fucking building, but she does it guessing slash hoping, I'd imagine that Peter's going to save her. I don't think anyone actually dies as a result of this the thing that sticks in my mind is when she takes over a civilian and she walks that civilian out onto the road and then that civilian gets run over hit hard by a vehicle there is also when she has Frank under control and he shoots the two guards in the vault they certainly seem to be dead I think there's a line after that next one is in the head if you don't give it up so that's a good point but but yeah that guy on the road does seem to be fatally injured but the X-Men don't have the same restrictions that say Spider-Man does as heroes so and also knowing where Jean's story tends to take her that's the least of our worries that's the least of our worries but also will they ever go down the Dark Phoenix route given that we've had that done twice and it's turned out poorly twice but just watch the X-Men animated series I beg again but the fact that you know Jean does have that storyline potential in her and the potential for darkness I think means it was nice that we're introduced to her as quote unquote a bad guy slash gal but I just think that also by doing that the reveal of Jean Grey means that it's not going to have the courage of skin fictions ultimately you know there's going to be some sort of nuance to this and that's proved to be correct in fact I mean Trammell Tillman yes he's a bad guy but the film lacks a villain ultimately and that's not unusual these days if you look at things there's quite a lot of Pixar films over the last few years things like Elemental don't have a bad guy I think it's an interesting tact to take with a film like this I think that Spider-Man I don't know I would think that normally Spider-Man would need someone to face off against in the final act and I liked that this movie was about compassion in the end and it very much was you know playing from the Thunderbolts handbook wasn't it really it was it was taking place inside someone's head to a large degree it was about reaching out it was about building bridges you know over grief and loss and I quite like that do you think that this film needed a big showdown a city CG destroying city fuckathon no definitely not CG fuckathon no absolutely not and the ending I think is so emotional and it's very clever scheme writing again like Peter has been pushing everyone away the entire movie the way that he wins the day is by allowing someone all the way in to his mind I think that's beautiful yeah and then we still get you know a good amount of action as well as I mentioned on the regular pod that scene with the hand at the end is so cool and it feels like not just with that but with the web swinging as well like there was real thought put into what haven't we seen from spider-man yet when it comes to web swinging when it comes to angles when it comes to even giving us a camera inside the suit we haven't seen that before what can we build off on that we have seen there was some first person stuff that was very reminiscent of amazing spider-man 2 that we get a little bit of here as well with the web swinging and then the action there's so much action which we just haven't seen this from live action spider-man before we've seen it from the insomniac games which is awesome and somebody plays those games to see that on the big screen was very, very exciting.

38:01Yeah, he said he took poses and stuff from those. Yeah, poses, finishing moves. Literally, I was like, I've done that movie. That's awesome. So yeah, we still get bang for our buck, but it's a lot more emotional and mature, and that's no bad thing in my book. I did find some of the action a bit sort of just, you know, CG heavy. All right. Okay. All right. some of the bits some of the bits in the montage where he's just sort of like flying towards camera with stuff all around and some of the bits kind of going through almost was it twirls of spider web and and things like that and there was just there were just bits where you're like well nothing on this screen right now is a person or a thing this is all this is all pixels and and some of those weren't beautiful like some of them were cool moments like even when Spider-Man stops and goes, that's so cool, when the hand jumps in.

38:57Like that kind of thing was fun. But there were also bits where I'm like, well, it's not even that cool looking. It's just visual noise. It's just stuff happening on screen. And I'm not charmed by it. And I feel like some of that stuff didn't really work for me. And I was kind of, it just felt a bit muddy and gray. Not everything, but just bits, bits. Chris, I wanted to ask you, because I know that you've been definitely wanting to see more classic Hulk than what we've had in previous MCU stuff. What was your reaction when you finally saw Hulk hulking out properly? Because we haven't seen that in a while.

39:35And I did not realize how much I needed and wanted it until I was looking at it.

39:40Chris Hewitt:Yeah, when was the last time we actually properly saw the Hulk? Thor Ragnarok, right? Yeah, I guess so. Properly. Well, maybe the beginning of Infinity War. That's where we see him. And a tiny bit at the end of Endgame, but you see very little of him in that. Even then, he's Professor Hulk at that point. So he's Professor Hulk all the way through Endgame. Honestly, I feel a little bit sad for Bruce Banner because at the end of Endgame, and another thing we should talk about, whether in this podcast or not, is the timeline of the MCU because now they seem to be dating things. So if you notice in No Way Home, they deliberately obscure the date of May's death.

40:19Oh, really?

40:20Chris Hewitt:But here they show it. that is 2024 which would kind of make sense if Endgame is 2019 and then five years blah blah blah blah blah kind of makes a little bit of a sense but then so then we're now what four years on from that so we're ahead again hang on was Endgame not was Endgame not 2018 and then five years 2018 and then five years later so it was after Infinity War plus five years so it was five years plus five years I thought we ended up in 2023 after Endgame we were in 2023 I thought we were Oh, God. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It's fine. It's fine. I'm sure there's someone whose job this is.

40:57Eight years later, everybody. Eight years later.

40:59Chris Hewitt:Why is it Spider-Man that always does this? Always fighting. What was your question? Hulk. Yes, so Banner, I think, had got himself into a good place and had fused the Hulk's strength with Banner's intellect. And I was a little sad, I'll be honest, to find that things had clearly regressed. but anyone who reads Hulk comics knows that inside that dude's head is not a good place to be and that the Hulk is constantly or Hulks are constantly evolving and battling each other and Banner inside his mind and so there's always a constant jostling for supremacy going on and so clearly something has happened in the time between Endgame and now to make him revert and then feel the need that he has to have an inhibitor because I think he'd find, okay, this is it.

41:53Chris Hewitt:This is the best of both worlds. But then clearly something has gone wrong. But again, because of the ridiculous right situation involving the Hulk, we'll never get that solo movie that would so clearly mark him out as one of the most interesting characters in the MCU. Instead, we just get little glimpses and snapshots of Ruffalo. But yeah, so I actually felt sad that we were seeing Hulk emerge from Banner. And I'll be honest, I also wanted him to be a little bit more savage than that. It's hard though, because you have him fighting Spider-Man and Savage Hulk, you know, Spider-Man can clearly take licks and that's very well established.

42:34Chris Hewitt:He falls great heights and then he's okay. But, you know, if Hulk can catch Spider-Man, because Spider-Man's much faster and more agile, then he'll snap his neck like a twig. He grabs Spider-Man at one point and it feels like he's halfway through doing the Loki smackdown on him and then Spidey sort of finds a way through but like that was a scary moment yeah it's not just that I'm just worried about he's just going to literally just take his head and turn it into a juicer that's what I'm worried about he's very capable of doing that but I will say I really like that that Hulk fight I'm glad that Hulk wasn't the focus of that I still think that Hulk needs his day Ruffalo Hulk needs his day on the big screen doesn't seem to be in Doomsday but if he's not in Secret Wars I'm going to be so angry I'll write three letters three letters to Feige three whole letters three whole letters there'll be more words within those letters there won't just be letters there'll be actual words within the letters and so I was I liked that scene I thought it was a very very inventive fight scene and again a bit like a bit like in A Brave New World right I think it actually captures the sheer pulse-pounding horror of what it would be like to fight one of these things when you are not as powerful as them.

43:49I enjoyed the Punisher noping on you.

43:51Chris Hewitt:That's what I was going to say. My favorite run of comics, I think, ever apart from maybe Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon's Preacher, is the Peter David run on The Incredible Hulk, which I think is just pretty much unparalleled in terms of what one writer is able to do with a character over a period of many, many years. If you've never read the Peter David run on Incredible Hulk, go back and check it out. It's amazing. One of the comics that he has, he has the Punisher face off against the Hulk. And I just, I love that comic, that issue, where Hulk basically knocks him out with a little finger. And Punisher realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew.

44:34Chris Hewitt:He throws a grenade at the Hulk, the Hulk catches it, and it just goes off in his hand. He's like, oh, fuck. I'm in trouble here. And I never thought I would see the Hulk and the Punisher and Spider-Man in one scene and that single shot there's a shot of Hulk rampaging through this corridor as Punisher slides underneath him firing his machine gun at him out of sheer desperation because what the fuck are those bullets going to do? And Spider-Man is dragging Frank along is I think one of my favourite shots in the MCU. It's like the splash page come to life. It was absolutely Yeah, it was, and I know that I'm a man of a certain age and I should be taking a bit more of a critical distance, but fuck me, it brought me back to my teenage years and it was just a wonderful, wonderful thing to sing.

45:25It drew a vocal reaction out on me.

45:27Chris Hewitt:That was awesome. Yeah, very much so. Got a big round of applause at the screening where we were at, which was great. But the Frank thing, real quick on that, because there's other stuff we have to talk about. The Frank thing, I really want to be, you know, a fly on the wall of houses where parents have to field their kids going to see Brand New Day and coming out going, oh, that was brilliant. I really like that Frank character. Is there anything more of him in the MCU? Hey, look, I'm on your menu on Disney+. And there's a film here called One Last Kill. I think I should watch that. No, Timmy!

46:09Get away!

46:11Chris Hewitt:Run, retagling. Grabbing the remote control. It's too late. The scales have fallen from little Timmy's eyes. He's traumatized. You know what I mean? It's like the Chuck's position of that is so wild to me. The Punisher One Last Kill opens where his viewer discretion is advised. Yeah. It's a bit different. A bit different. Yeah, the idea that that Punisher walks out of that short film, having done what he does to people in that, and then strolls into Brand New Day, and presumably walks to Staten Island, has his life saved by this young pup, and then kind of becomes a little bit more sunny and friendly.

47:00I'm not sure sunny is the word.

47:02Chris Hewitt:Sunny disposition. Sunny by Frank's standards. Never called the Punisher in the movie, I don't believe. But yeah, it's very well publicized that Tom Holland and John Berthold are very good friends. And I feel like you could see that friendship peeking out of various scenes in this. That scene where Spider-Man arrives at Punisher's there and they're just bickering while MJ stands there was very funny. That was great. I also like that he likes MJ because she's so dark. She's okay. Yeah, it is a little bit at odds with, in particular, One Last Kill. Yes. And some of his other appearances as well.

47:42Chris Hewitt:All of his appearances. But also, you know, I'm a huge subscriber to Gail Simone's theory that the Punisher would be prettier if he smiles more. So, like, I feel like this is great. This really works. Big Braxton Wolfe energy from this Frank Castle, I would say. Amon, where did you stand on Spider-Man being friends with the Punisher, given that the Punisher frequently crosses that moral line that Spider-Man will not. I think it works for this film, given what I said about what Peter is going through, and they have that really great scene with the Punisher and Peter where the Punisher is like, you know, you think you're me?

48:20Like, you don't know me. If I had family, if I had still people I care about, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing, and you do. Like, don't go down this path, essentially, is what he's doing. I think that really worked for the story this film was telling so for this film it works, I would love to know how it develops outside of this film, but I do love that that bromance feels earned by the end and again even though that thing with the Punisher at the end is very unpunished alike and very goofy, it feels like an earned moment for the story and I also love that Peter gets a chance to kind of see the impact that Spider-Man has had in the midst of all those people.

49:00That was a really lovely scene. I hope he took the sketch by MJ with him. That would be good. I was worried about that. I don't know if he did or not.

49:07Chris Hewitt:I hope he did. I hope he did. I think we could all see the plot development coming that Frank was going to shoot Peter from a mile away, because that's how far he was. But what did we make of that? and there's a maybe a step lost in the sequencer because Peter's bleeding out Jean's trying to stop him I guess using her telekinesis telekinesis to stop his blood from leaving his body I don't know how that works to control his breathing I would try and cram his blood back into his body using my powers of moving stuff my theory with the secret identity stuff in the hospital was more that if Jean can control the breathing from all the way where she is, she can probably mind control anyone in the vicinity to forget Peter's identity or forget what Spider-Man looks like.

50:06So that was my theory. But I like yours too, Helen. Yeah, I wasn't quite sure how her powers work to keep him alive, but sure. I thought it was some sort of telekinegas.

50:16Chris Hewitt:I thought it was that. Is he a member of the Greek football team? he's in the Odyssey you must see he's one of the Deocys' guys but I yeah I guess I guess I guess look she's very very powerful I guess it's possible I don't know and it would maybe explain that she doesn't leave town immediately she sort of stays within a certain range until he is ready to sort of re-emerge I don't know I think we'd be showing it if that were the case the last five minutes apart from the Ned scene with Peter which I think is a really lovely way to end the film I think was probably the most unsatisfying part for me because I just could not help but go, the police would arrest the Punisher now.

50:58Chris Hewitt:Not least for the fact that he shot Spider-Man. The people's hero. The people's hero. And there's an abrupt cut from Gene trying to stop Peter from dying. The Punisher, he crosses that mile distance very quickly. Real fast. is he Quicksilver? I mean, maybe. I mean, yeah. Didn't see the guy coming. I don't remember my New York geography that well. How do you get to Roosevelt Island? Practice. Yeah, okay, that's Carnegie Hall. How do you get to Roosevelt Island? I have no idea. Is there a bridge and tunnel, or is this a... I've seen cable cars going to some of the islands. Anyway, I'm just saying, like, he has to get there, get Peter, get him back to the hospital.

51:42It should take a minute. And he was a long way away, as you say.

51:46Chris Hewitt:And he was bleeding quite a lot. unless she controls somebody else to get him the first part of the way and then has you know has the Punisher take him from there I don't know oh my word I don't know but yeah even the whole thing like you know they have Spider-Man in hospital and they don't have guards on the door and he just wakes up and wanders out that stuff slightly took me out of the movie which is a shame because I was really really with it up until that point and I don't want a slightly negative reaction to the last five minutes color my opinion of the movie but then the Ned sequence was really really great so fingers crossed what do you think is happening with Banner?

52:28well he's apparently he's in custody yeah

52:31Chris Hewitt:so some sort of supermax prison again that maybe they were like okay we realize we have this walking nuclear bomb in the middle of our society but he's a nice guy and he's smart and he's he's a tenured professor now at Empire State University so that scene was great So that's fine. Yeah, I really, really enjoyed that because it's true, most people will be in that class 100 % to hear Avengers stories from the man who, I mean, that's give credit where it's fucking due, is responsible for bringing everyone back. Yeah. All Tony did was get rid of Thanos. It's still quite important. And create the gauntlet that Banner holds.

53:13Chris Hewitt:I mean, yes, he did. But, you know, but then Bruce helped as well. Probably. He'd probably be, the science bros went, hey, hey Tony, you've soldered the wrong bit there. I think that's what you've... That was a Tony and Rocket project more than... I think Bruce helped. I think Bruce took a, he took an over, helicopter view. Anyway, but he did, he clicked, he brought everyone back. He did. He brought everyone back. Anyway, what was I talking about? Anyway, so now he's in prison. So, do we think that that is Ruffalo off the board for a while? Or do we think he's going to be in Secret Wars or what's the deal?

53:49I think he'll be in Secret Wars. I think that's presumably the way you get him out of prison. And I think we should talk about that post-credit sting, which I find, well, disappointing. I hope for more. We were told specifically to stay in our seats. Yeah. I've got to say, there was a lot of hype

54:08Chris Hewitt:generated from the intro that was not... And it was like, okay, so what are we going to get? Are we going to get a debut of Professor X? Are we going to get... are we going to get what are we going to get we're going to get some sort of huge revelation and what we got is something that is actually I think open to interpretation because I heard a couple of theories in the crowd afterwards but my reading on that is that that is Peter being taken to Battleworld that is what my reading was and that you would imagine that the next time we'll see him we'll be in Secret Wars unless we begin to see I know you've been talking about this we begin to see the formation of battle wars and people being taken by whatever force it is and I do wonder if there's going to be a beyonder or beyonders in secret wars I wonder if it might be Doom who is responsible for all of this in secret wars who is plucking heroes from across the universe multiverse to fight each other essentially on this battle world I think that's what happens to Peter.

55:15It was interesting that it just said Spider-Man will return. It did not say in Avengers Tuesday. It did not say in Avengers Secret. It was just said Spider-Man will return. Normally when they do that sort of thing they tell you when.

55:26Chris Hewitt:They do. Although not always. Peter Quill. True. Thor. Thor was just Thor will return at the end of Love and Thunder. Mind you if they said Thor will return in the Kang Dynasty. It would have been very very wrong of course yeah it's it's it's fascinating I think I think he will be in Doomsday but I think it'll be at the end but honestly I think the marketing it would have done for Secret Wars alone would have been quite something if that had gone Spider-Man will return oh my gosh and then in Avengers Secret Wars people would have gone what's that and then they found out what it is and they got really excited about it yeah maybe yeah that's what you think it is right in Hells Bells?

56:15that's what I think it is yeah and I agree with you it's either end of Doomsday or start of Sacred Wars I feel like based on absolutely nothing but I don't know I just well it doesn't make any sense within the app this is reported by users what user on Battleworld is pinging that Spider-Man has just arrived come on people this makes no sense think it through logically

56:40Chris Hewitt:Peter Quill okay alright moving on Hawkeye Keith Bishop Keith Bishop she would definitely be using this so would Kamala Khan I mean they get incredible signal in that case they get great signal the other theory I saw floated I don't think this is the case is that it's another Spider-Man but I I don't think they're going there with Secret Wars I don't think it's going to be multiple versions of the same characters fighting off against each other. I think it's going to be one universe as champions versus another universe as champions versus another universe as champions. I agree with you on that, but, and I'm not going to tell Miles to guarantee this yet.

57:23Chris Hewitt:Miles Morales. No, no, no. I was going to say, in Doomsday, I would not be surprised if we see a Tobey Maguire Spider-Man and Andrew Garfield Spider-Man trying to save their universe from another universe's heroes who are trying to end their universe. in order to survive. I would not be surprised if we saw that. My God, they've got a lot to do with these movies. They really do. I was actually heartened by seeing that apparently the runtime for Doomsday is two hours and 45 minutes because I feel like they're going to need something like that. It's just the pre-credits? What are they going to do?

58:02This thing needs to be

58:03Chris Hewitt:six hours long and I'll still be there going, more! I feel like they're going to need something like that in order to service as much as they need to in that film. There's a lot of plates that they have to spin. Is that shorter than Infinity War? No, that's longer. No, it's longer. Is it longer than Infinity War? Shorter than Endgame. Okay. A shorter than Endgame encore. Hey. Hey, hey, hey. Let's go. You didn't talk about that on the pub. Did they show any new stuff? No, they showed a trailer. But the trailer was mainly, in fact, was entirely pre-existing footage. I didn't recognize anything new and but it was also about relive the theatrical experience.

58:47Chris Hewitt:So it was showing you those images of opening nights when when Sam comes back and says on your left I'm dying. We should talk about portals. All that sort of stuff. yeah out September 25th. Okay. Very exciting. Very exciting indeed. But yes, Peter. Peter. Did the Aunt May moment hit you as emotionally hard as it did me? No. Wow. I thought it was really nice, actually. I thought it was a good way to get her back into it. I thought it was a good way to, you know, hark back to the great power, great responsibility without giving it to us again. Although I would remind you it took them two films, three films, not including Avengers, but including Captain America, to finally say the words.

59:40So I don't feel like they've overdone it in this reality, but at the same time, it was a nice little way of kind of bringing her back. And also kind of reminding us of the difference between these two characters, that he has this very solid base to start from. Yes, he'd lost his parents, but he had this incredible parental figure, whereas Jean Grey hasn't had that in this reality, clearly. And I thought that was an interesting... note to play that was like look good parents make a difference like loving your child makes a difference and I thought that was a nice kind of reminder and a nice thing to have yeah she was the mom to Jean Grey that Jean Grey didn't have and oh that it did hit me hard yeah

1:00:24Chris Hewitt:I liked that scene it didn't get me emotionally the thing that got me emotionally was the the picture Aunt May got me emotionally last time it was that scene and then the scene where and one of the best scenes in the movie where MJ has found the letter and confronts Peter about it. And the scene ends with like, you know, I don't love you and I don't know you. And just, you could feel, you could see the soul leave Peter's body. Even though he's hearing words that he knows, what was he expecting? Did he hear anything else? I think he knew that, but he just didn't want to hear it. He put on for hearing it.

1:01:02Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Which is why he was only stalking him from afar. and then until he stumbles upon Ned and follows him home. I didn't love all of that scene just because I thought there was a little bit of a contradiction really between the sort of, you know, how dare you keep this from me and also I don't know you. That felt like two separate and very distinct conversations and two separate and almost contradictory positions to hold. And I didn't think the writing for her bit of that worked brilliantly for me just as a result um but like both are fair points like you know both are you should have told me this you should have shared this earlier you've clearly been thinking about it and you have kept it from me yeah um but then to sort of lash out of like i have no fucking clue who you are you're no one to me is is do you know what i mean it's there's there's there's a tension between those two positions i don't think sits particularly well together so i I feel like there might have been a more elegant way of getting her position across.

1:02:09Chris Hewitt:I don't know that anger would have been my reaction to finding out something like that. I'd have been very, very sad. Amused, maybe. Yeah, sad for him, yeah. Curious as well. Okay, who are you? I don't think I've defaulted to, how dare you not tell me this? Yeah, that's the thing that I was a bit like, oh, is that the first reaction? really but again the whole thing I mean the spell was a desperate solution for Peter at the end of No Way Home and I also suspect for the screenwriters it was a bit of a desperate solution as well it's the same guys McKenna and Summers and I wonder if they were like oh god once you dig into this once you really dig into this it doesn't make any sense whatsoever like because she still Spider-Man still did everything Spider-Man did.

1:03:02Like, he kept saving her and Ned. Yeah. Like, they straight up say that. So, how... And I love that Ned's theory is it's either Flash or our teacher, which is fun. Yeah, that was fun. But...

1:03:15Chris Hewitt:And Peter has to have existed, otherwise Spider-Man wouldn't have existed. Spider-Man wouldn't have been created. Yeah. So, Peter is still... So, it's not a question of Peter Parker never existed. Peter Parker existed in this world. They just don't... remember him. So I think that could have been explored a little bit more. You know, when they think back to their days, is there a classmate you can't quite place? There's a guy there, but I can't remember what he looks like. What was his name? Philip? I don't know. Paul? Something? That would have been good if they'd been sort of looking through like old class lists and he's there on the list and they're just like, who the fuck is that guy?

1:03:56Like if they'd done a little bit of research beyond that, that might have been good.

1:03:59Chris Hewitt:Or imagine if they'd had like an old school photograph and he was in the photograph and they can't see him. And he's going, I'm right there. I'm right. I'm next to you guys. And you go, we don't see you. We don't see you. That kind of makes more sense than what they've done. But yeah, the contradiction of that, of course, is that Peter is raised from their memories, but Spider-Man isn't. And I quite like that that was their way into him, that Ned naturally is inclined to becoming obsessed with Spider-Man or finding his way back to Spider-Man because Spider-Man was a big part of their lives. And MJ's smart.

1:04:37Chris Hewitt:Ned's smart. So they kind of figure it out. We were saved five or six different times in different countries by this guy. So therefore, he has to have been someone who was known to us. Still not sure how you get from that to anger. Unless it's anger about what could have been, anger about the lost years. If I really am the person, the love of your life, if I really mean this much to you, then why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you try and persuade me afterwards? I think there are lines akin to that. I think she says, you took the choice out of my hands or something akin to that. Yeah, she does.

1:05:16But at the same time, she doesn't know this guy. So why? Do you know what I mean? again I just I just feel like there was a tension between two different forms of anger in that scene and I don't think the film did a brilliant job of sort of explaining that and justifying that I think that could have been better just better done really it is frustrating I also enjoyed by the way just how clever Ned was shown to be when just figuring out how Spidey's wet fluid must work Spidey track-up I thought no Spidey I mean anybody can build an app but the Wow No, but like, especially nowadays, anybody can build an app, but like the sort of, oh, your web fluid must be this, this, and this.

1:05:56That was a really nice reminder that he's not just good at computers and can hack into the school, whatever. Like, he's actually deeply smart.

1:06:04Chris Hewitt:For the record, I have never built an app. And I wouldn't know where to begin. Organic webbing trumps whatever the web he was using. What do we think of that? We've got to wrap it up in a few minutes. We'll be back for another one. but what do we think of the Peter Puberty and the organic web shooters and not interacting with the early artificial ones etc etc I had a lot of sympathy for the Tobey Maguire films having organic web shooters because it just felt more elegant to me you know what are the chances that this guy gets bitten by a spider and gets spider powers and also develops this revolutionary polymer that works like spider web like it just felt like that's a lot of it set up and explaining.

1:06:49It's more elegant to just have. And he shoots spiderwebs, even though it would make no sense whatsoever for them to come out of his hands. Anyway, so I had, and I also enjoyed In No Way Home, like both Peter 3 and Peter 1's sort of like, what the fuck? You can do that. Reaction to Tobey Maguire because that was delightful and very funny. And they were both, especially Garfield so clearly grossed out and freaked out by it. That stuff coming out of you. But then, so then to have Peter I sort of go through this and kind of be trying to reassure himself, well, Peter II was a cool guy, so I guess it's all right.

1:07:31It was good. I think it benefited from having that sort of set up in the last film that it was a thing that some Spider-Mans could do. Yeah. And I thought it worked better than it would have done without No Way Home for sure. and it is a little bit more elegant to me but also yeah the idea that you know his general personal misery has resulted in his powers going haywire is a fine old not just Spider-Man but generally superhero trope that I thought was pretty well used here yeah

1:08:03Chris Hewitt:agreed agreed and I like the bit where he goes in the final battle where he a bit like Thor in Ragnarok becomes in charge of his own instrument oh yes It felt very, it reminded me of the moment in the first Spider-Man where Peter has the fight at the high school with Joe Manginello. There's more slow motion in this film than in any Spider-Man film, I think, but it's used pretty well. Used in that moment, used when, for a second, you think MJ might die and then he sort of grabs her. They think that's effective. Yeah. I think you have to with Spider-Man because everything happens so fast. You have to kind of slow down the world to see how quickly he reacts to things and how he can avoid bullets which is obviously something bang I'm firing something at you at 200 miles an hour missed it missed me again yeah sorry oh the third one got me sorry this is a really short film oh god oh god alright we gotta wrap it up there's so much still to talk about and we'll take listener questions next time as well so bombard me with questions for Spider-Man brand new day and Odyssey brand new 10 years please slide into my DMs.

1:09:15Chris Hewitt:I'm on Twitter as at Chris Hewitt. I'm on Blue Sky also as Chris Hewitt. I'm on Instagram as CTAH1976. We'll be recording Odyssey next week. Probably our next Spider-Man one the week after that or so. So keep them coming. Keep them coming. Let us know your thoughts, your opinions, any burning questions you may have and we will do our very best to answer them. But in the meantime, I think that is it for our Spider-Man brand new day. Reaction spoiler. Reaction spoiler. overall positive very good film yeah very good film yep where would you place it in the MCU Spidey list third third I think it would be second for me in the Spiderman films I think No Way Home just a touch better right now but I need to rewatch this to be sure we need to go back and by the time we are back again we will have seen this film a second time which is very very important but anyway all that remains right now is to say goodbye to a Mon Warman.

1:10:13Chris Hewitt:Goodbye. Peace. And it's goodbye from Helen O 'Hara. Goodbye. And it's goodbye from me. A new Chris Hewitt sighting has been reported. Wow. Yeah. Who knows where it will pop up next. Chris Hewitt will return in the Empire Podcast Secret Wars. Oh my God. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye bye.