Supergirl (ft. Craig Gillespie)

26:41That's separate from Superman. There's like a fierceness in the way that she she Approaches things, but she feels totally in control And it was really fun to just go through all these iterations Absolutely.

26:54Chris Hewitt:Well Craig I've got a lot to go, but how do you feel now? Have you've unburdened yourself on spoilers? do you feel okay it's a relief thank you lovely to talk to you alright that was Craig Gillespie talking about Supergirl before we get into the film in depth as to what we always do talk about the film in general terms you guys have already expounded upon it in the review section of the most recent regular podcast so we kind of know what you think but Hellspells we should obviously of course say you were on set of this film you wrote the Empire feature for this movie correct You are in the super tank, or are you?

27:30Chris Hewitt:What did you think of this film? Yeah, I did really enjoy the film while I was watching it. I had a good time overall. I think Millie Alcock is great. Isn't she? Absolutely great in this role. She is so fucking good. I mean, I remember when, you know, she was in the first five episodes of House of the Dragon as the young Rhaenyra. And I remember almost, you know, mourning her absence when they actually handed over to Emmer D 'Alessen. It was also very good, but it took me a good couple of episodes to be like, you're not Millie Alcock, how dare you? there's an instance in this film where she is speaking Kryptonian that gave me House of the Dragon yes because they speak a little so but yeah so I think she's fantastic I actually really enjoyed Lobo who I was not sure I would enjoy I think Eve Ridley is lovely and they have a really nice dynamic between the two of them I do have some notes about the storytelling and the sort of pacing of this film however and I do think that there are some instances where I would have liked other things to happen, basically.

28:28But I had a nice time when I was watching it. It was mostly just sort of afterwards. I've been like, you know.

28:33Chris Hewitt:She's Australian, Millie. She is, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much so. So Australians are typically pretty good with accents and dialects and things like that. Because I had no idea she was Australian until I Googled it literally just two minutes ago. Because she's really, really great. Yeah, she's great. And she handles the Kryptonian stuff, I think, very, very, very, very well. I really like that. I really like that they've continued that on. We get that brief snippet in James Gunn's Superman of Bradley Cooper's Jor-El speaking in Kryptonian. It's like, of course, of course they would speak like that.

29:06Chris Hewitt:They wouldn't speak in our language. They wouldn't speak in our tongue. They're a completely different race, completely different planet. They'd have their own language and way of speaking. That makes perfect sense to me. Thank you. Speaking of that, were you surprised that Clark does not know Kryptonian? I was a little bit surprised by that. I suppose he's never had a course to learn, isn't it? They don't do a Duolingo course. But he does have, essentially, access to a Duolingo course. It's a lot of effort, isn't it? Why would you learn Kryptonian? It's like learning Latin or Klingon. It doesn't have any practical application.

29:35But people do. People do to preserve Latin and to preserve Klingon. Yeah, I kind of feel like he feels more of a jock-type character, right? Like, I don't see him being a bookworm. I don't see him sitting down and thinking, He's like a level five intelligence. I'm going to put in 10 ,000 hours learning a language I'm literally never going to use because everyone who speaks it is fucking dead. It wouldn't take him 10 ,000 hours.

29:54Chris Hewitt:The only thing that's interesting is that they don't... Would he learn it so he could try and understand what his dad is saying in that message that is on repeat? Kill everyone. Become a conqueror. But he didn't have access to the whole message. Yeah, my son, you are a wonderful son and Earth's a wonderful people. Oh, God. My dad is the best dad in the world. I love him so much. Kill them all. Kill them all. Kill them all. Oh, my dad's a dick. Anyway. Yes. I'm on. You were saying about that. Yeah, I was a bit surprised that he didn't know Kryptonian. But one of the best things about this film is their connection, Clark and Kara.

30:30I really, really enjoyed that. I agree a lot with what you're saying about Millie Alcock. I thought she was fantastic. She's from Australia. Thanks. So I've heard. But yeah, there are some elements in this film that just didn't quite work for me. I think the villain is a bit undercooked. I think the needle drops don't work. I think the action could have been better. There are some really cool action moments, to be fair, but a lot of it is quite chaotic, and we'll get into it. But there's a decision that is made in the final act of this film that I've just... Is it where Clark learns Kryptonian?

31:04He would never do that! Where Kara kills Krem, that I just... It didn't feel good in the moment, even though there were smattings of applause last night. I'm getting deja vu from this conversation, and I feel like we go around this particular course quite often.

31:18Chris Hewitt:But can I ask a question about your particular moral absolutism? Can I just play the debate you had about this in the Superman part as well? In any one that we did. But no, but in this one, I'm assuming that your position on this is less about the moral absolutism and more to do with the fact that that Karazel as a character would not do that. That's presumably your issue. I think for me, just as a blanket statement, I don't need to see anyone with that S on their chest murdering anyone in cold blood. Can I introduce you to Bradley Cooper's jaw?

31:54He's never been a super person on Earth. And for good reason, because he wouldn't be accepted as such if he came to Earth. He would be Homelander.

32:04Chris Hewitt:Yes. And we don't like Homelander. I know, I know. But that's not good. And that's not what Superman or Supergirl are. And that's the other thing that I was going to come to. because they make a big thing in this movie about being good. Good but not nice. Her mother says it and it's repeated again with Clark and Karma when they talk. I know that I'm not shedding any tears for Krim. He's an ass. But killing a defenseless, defeated person in cold blood does not come under the heading of good. Expressly for revenge. Not to stop him from committing further crimes, James, in relation to what you're about to say.

32:46She literally says, this is for her parents and for my dog. I mean, that's fair. But also, look, not being funny, he shot the fucking dog. And if anyone wanted killing, he wanted killing. I'm not shedding any tears over the man.

32:59Chris Hewitt:Isn't it interesting that the killing blow is for my dog bit, but it's the, you know, I'll maim you for her parents. I really care about my dog. And also, in the comics that this film is adapting, there's a panel where Supergirl is talking about the significance of wearing the S on her chest and saying that the number one rule is don't kill people. In the comics, they throw Krem in the Phantom Zone. That's how they resolve this. It's actually a bit more complicated than that. It's worth talking about what they do in this comic. Tell us. So basically, the comic is narrated by old Ruthie. Ruthie, as an old lady, tells the story of this extraordinary adventure she had when she was young.

33:40and the whole comic is framed through that device. And so at the end, you do see Supergirl killing Krem in the comic, but then it is explained. So basically, the idea is in the comic that the brigands are quite a large group of people. It's not just this one ship. There's a lot of them around and they will always go after you if you kill one of their own. And Krem has been adopted by them as one of their own. Therefore, whoever kills him is in for a world of hurt. and Supergirl lets it be spread around that she has killed him so that she will take that world of hurt and so that everyone who comes for a crime will come for her.

34:17And this, and so presumably she spends years dealing with him and no big deal because she can. Then it's revealed that he's been in the Phantom Zone this entire time and she brings him out after 70 real years, thousands of subjective years when he has learned the error of his ways and he apologizes to Ruthie and she beheads him anyway as an old lady.

34:41Chris Hewitt:Seems fair. How would an old lady have the power to do that? Because she just needs to swing a really sharp sword once. Buck off sword. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, the idea being that basically, you know, Supergirl saves Ruthie at a time when she is acting out of, you know, hot emotion, at a time when she isn't really old enough to know better. She gives her her life, essentially, to live free of the moral weight of this crime. And eventually she still decides to kill him at a time when he knows he deserves it actually as well. So it's more kind of meaningful, I think, in a weird way for both of them at that point.

35:17And he has been stopped in his rampage since.

35:20Chris Hewitt:I wonder if that was actually part of the plan originally for this movie. Craig Gillespie said that the ending didn't change, or as in what Kara does to Krem didn't change. That was always part of the plan. He did say that the movie didn't always end the way it does with Clark and Kara to have their little chat in Clark's apartment on Earth. But it ended with them getting into the Winnebago, that's what they call it, the Space Winnebago, and her going off with Ruthie on another adventure. But he also says the movie didn't open the way that it opened now, which is that sequence inside the Winnebago where we get to meet Crypto again and we get to meet Kara and she's drunk and Crypto's pissing on the paper with Clark's face on it and all that sort of stuff.

36:02Chris Hewitt:And I wonder if maybe at some point in the process that was the plan it it might have been i think it is you know as it's taken me a minute to explain it it is a more complicated ending it might not have played cleanly to certainly studio executives but possibly also to attest audiences if they tried it i get that i do but i i do feel the same discomfort as amon with just her straight up killing him again explicitly for revenge and i don't think that is particularly true to the character and i think yes she's protecting ruthie from carrying the moral weight and there is a there is an element of that reflecting some of what happens in the comics but cara herself that isn't the journey that she's meant to be on in this story and i don't think it's as powerful or as clean a journey for her to go on to just kill a dude i i mean look this may say more about me than it does about the film but when she stops Ruthie from killing him, I was actively furious.

37:01I was like, really? Again? Did you not learn from the fucking first time? So I have rarely felt a character needed killing more than Krem particularly did in this. But also, I'm fairly certain she kills that guy outside the bar at the beginning of the film as well, because she staves his fucking head in with a mace, and then pulls a sword out of his chest. So I kind of don't think that her body count is restricted to one. Yeah, no, I agree with that, but I also think that's a mistake. Well, sure, but I think I kind of my reading from this and I have not spoken to the director about this but I felt like they were positioning Supergirl as a very different sort of like strand to Clark as in the you know he is very straight down the line absolutely moral absolutely unwavering she I feel is supposed to have a little bit more edge a little bit more of a dark side to her and it felt like they were maybe leaning into that yes but I think there's a difference between having an edge having a dark side and being a murderer yeah but again I think it feels slightly reductive to be like this moral absolutism that it's always wrong to kill somebody he was you know I don't need to list like he's a serial rapist he's a human trafficker he's all these things yes you're right he was not holding any form of weapon was not a threat but equally I'm like smoke that fool but again like other options exist like the phantom zone exists like all of these things exist does she have access to that like does she have a way does she have a way to send him there well in the comics she does to be fair in this incarnation we don't know that she does

38:26Chris Hewitt:it doesn't feel like she has access to the Phantom Zone. Maybe not personally, but she has a relationship with Clark and we know that the Phantom Zone exists because they mention it in this film. So she could have easily sort of... Easily, I think, is a word. I'm not sure we can plug. We don't know how easy it is to get people into the Phantom Zone. I will concede, we don't know that she has easy access to the Phantom Zone. I will absolutely concede that. But there might be a way of, like, holding him until you can figure out a more powerful way. Or she could have made him lightly. I thought it was an interesting...

38:51Cut off a couple of limbs. I mean, one person sort of stabs someone with a needle that sort of knocked them out for a standard period of time. You could have used that on Grimm, taken them back to Earth, talked to Clark. This guy needs to go. That's a lot of admin. It's better than having, you know, blood on one hand. Again, practicality. But also, I mean, the story of the comic book, and again, look, again, I'm not saying don't ever change anything in a comic. I'm really not. But in the comic book, it's very much a story about she is disconnected, disillusioned, hasn't adjusted to life on Earth, doesn't really want to be there, doesn't know where she fits in.

39:24and through this connection that she builds with Ruthie and through the journey that they go on, she kind of rediscovers her own purpose and rediscovers her own goodness and figures out a way to be and to be specifically Supergirl on Earth, but also just to be connected to reality again and to be connected to people and to care about people. And I don't know that that, and that is something that everybody, by the way, when I talked to them on set, that's something that they all talked about. This is the story of this film is her reconnecting. I don't know that you do that by her killing him I don't know that that is well demonstrated by her killing him that is my major issue with it because from a story and an emotional and a character point of view it doesn't feel like you're telling the story you want to tell with that action to me I don't I mean it doesn't doesn't conflict for me for me from an audience catharsis point of view I was very grateful for it uh but also I you know this kind of maybe goes to, if I'm honest, my main issue with the film, which is that had he just been an other bad guy, and his whole thing was he was a little bit murdery, and he's not a very nice guy, I probably feel similar where I'm like, okay, well that's a bit harsh, stab him in the chest and murder him, that's fine but because this takes that incredibly dark human trafficking storyline, because he essentially is middle management I don't know what his rank is, in a group of serial rapists who abduct teenage girls and force them into sexual slavery, which is a fucking wild plot point to base this film around.

40:56I was just like, you know what? Much like Creasy, my only regret was that she only got to kill him once.

41:03Chris Hewitt:Not Creasy, Robert McCall. Shit! Shit! Not Creasy, Robert McCall. Basically, any Denzel Washington character when he generally goes around murdering people, he only got to kill him once. Supergirl's art is death and she's about to paint her master. That's right. That's right. I do feel like putting rape front, and let's call it, I mean, I don't know if it's they would want us to use that word. I'm sure they wouldn't, but that's what they did, isn't it? But like, certainly, human trafficking and specifically the trafficking of women and girls to be forced into relationships with men. So that's kind of what it is.

41:36I think it is reductive a little bit to make that the focus of your female-led movie. I think it is certainly unpleasant for presumably your audience of teenage girls. That's my whole thing. It feels like, if this film had such an opportunity to be, you know, much like Captain Marvel or the Marvels, like something... Or Wonder Woman. Or Wonder Woman, like something that young girls, teenage girls could latch onto to feel empowered by, to feel that it was their superhero movie. And this feels like it alienates that audience in a really horrible, fundamental way. And I honestly think that was the most wrong-headed, misjudged thing.

42:09And maybe it isn't the comic, sure. But it isn't. You can fucking change it, right? It is mentioned in passing about the Brigands. They are an all-male group. So presumably, that kind of is built in sexist, we can go with. That's built in as an implication, but what they actually do is go on a rampage of genocide across the galaxy, and they kill entire peoples. And Supergirl spends time in the comics literally digging thousands of graves to bury the victims of genocide that they have gone on. It's not a three-day period. It's a much longer adventure that they go on. So, obviously they have a bit more wiggle room for that kind of thing.

42:47But it is she is a protector not just of women but of people and i think that it is a i said this in the main podcast but it is reductive that she is only allowed to protect women and girls here because that's that's that's explicitly what wonder woman didn't do and there is a reason that women felt empowered by watching wonder woman and there is a reason that women came out of that film there was that famous tweet that i keep quoting about you know i've just seen wonder woman and I feel like I could punch a thousand dudes is this how men feel all the time coming out of all those action movies I didn't feel like that coming out of this and I should have done because Supergirl has that in her as a character and I kind of did feel that way reading this comic because I think it does a really good job of showing her kindness and her as a strength and her moral authority as a strength and her strength of character as a you know as a physical almost strength and I wanted that from this film and I think Millie Alcock has it in her and to play that character so this and look I'm making this into we're talking about this a lot and I realize it sounds like we all hate the film I didn't hate none at all a lot a lot of the film I loved a lot of the film but I do find this particular thing really frustrating I agree 100 % this a genuinely this is this was the source of most of my anger towards this film I fundamentally I think ruined the film for me.

44:10There were other issues I had with it, obviously. And I don't know what the fuck they were thinking. I really don't. I think what it is is that thing of what can we have her address that will speak to her audience? Let's have her address a big women's issue. Do you know what I mean? And it just feels bad that that's sort of the thinking. And I really do think that this is maybe too many men in the mix with respect to those men. Because, you know, like James Gunn has created great female characters before. Craig Gillespie did a really good job with Cruella and other female-led films. You know, he can do, like, female antiheroes, female heroines.

44:44He's good at this stuff. But I'm not going to put it all in an Anna Nogueira because I don't think that she, as the screenwriter, is responsible for all of this either. So I think somewhere along the line, people have got this idea of, oh, this would be a really great sort of, you know, thematic thing for Supergirl to fight. And it absolutely isn't.

45:01Chris Hewitt:Isn't it also just about making Krem utterly irredeemable so that he does have to be put down like a dog? Isn't genocide also irredeemable? Does it have to be female-focused? I'd have been much happier with that. That sounds insane to say. I'd have been much happier with genocide. I know exactly what you mean, but I do think we have to give our female heroes in these movies the authority to save men as well. Because this is what men complain about. They think women hate them, because here's a woman who's just picking on men on behalf of women. well she should be picking on men on behalf of women and men were either of you as surprised as I was that in I think it's like the second big fight and Krem actually kills the entire family he had the daughter like I did not expect that to happen given that Supergirl was in the mix like I thought that this is the part where it's very very dark and that is why you know I said in the regular pod I liked the fact that he was a formidable opponent that managed to do stuff like that right when Supergirl was there.

46:10Chris Hewitt:I needed more explanation for Krem. I needed more insight into him. Absolutely. I like this film. I think that Mateusz Schoenartz is comfortably its weakest element. I agree. I think he is in a completely different film than everyone else. He's almost panto level at times with how he's playing this character. But I needed the character to be explained more. I needed to know how this dude is the leader of the brigands I need to know how he is able to go toe to toe with Supergirl when she's got the power of a yellow sun I needed to know things like that at one point someone says one of the blue skin tech raiders says he's strength of a hundred men or something like that he's strength of a thousand men because he catches a tank doesn't he at one point I was like well where did that come from well that's again in the comics there is a reason for all these genocides that he's committing and it's that he's essentially harvesting dark magic and dark energy and then he can do a whole bunch of things like hopping from planet to planet via magical portals.

47:04Again, I get why that's really complicated. That needs to be explained here in the movie. But that's maybe too complicated as a whole thing to set out in a movie. It's going to take a couple of minutes of screen time to lay all that out. I get why they would kind of simplify that. But just he's a bad guy on a rampage doesn't really get to it. And if all they're doing is kidnapping women, well, he didn't do any of that on Ruthie's planet. Well, I think he was planning to. wasn't he? That's why he says, I want her to show me the swords, not you. And it feels like he was going to take the swords and her.

47:35Quite why he needed swords when he's got tanks, I don't know. Well, this again, they're meant to be really good swords. I think the idea is that Ruthie's dad...

47:42Chris Hewitt:I think, yeah, I was going to say, like, you know, Inigo Montoya's start. Yes. Father Dominico, I think, Montoya, you know, Dominic Montoya's level swords. Yeah. Good swords. Again, tanks. True. But yeah, obviously then his ship gets destroyed and presumably along with it, a whole bunch of his men and maybe even some of his imprisoned women are killed in that moment as well at the beginning of the movie. But I will say, that's a really effective introduction of the bad guy and his credentials. He shows up and his mere presence alone is enough to scare this guy who has designed some of the scariest swords in the entire universe.

48:17Chris Hewitt:And then it's quite an interesting scene where he just slaughters that family and then he does it again. You're absolutely right on Bill King. I feel like one of the reasons that that happens is to help set up and justified the fact that she kills him at the end because she stops Ruthie from killing him and as a result that girl's entire family and she dies. So the film's narrative is saying if she had just let Ruthie kill him the world and the universe would have been a better place and that family would still be alive. So at the end it's kind of leaning on that she has to kill him for the greater good thing.

48:46I think that's what that's there to do.

48:48Chris Hewitt:You know like when Clark snaps Saul's neck in Man of Steel. My favourite part of Man of Steel. Oh, I loved it. Absolutely spot on. He's going, no, the people. So really, this is for the greater good can we not hated it then hate it now I don't need to see Superman or Supergirl unless like you know massive asterisk to something like Doomsday okay do what you have to do Brainiac he's like he's a robot at the end of the day do what you have to do when it comes to actual why the Doomsday hey Doomsday is you know he's just a big monster Doomsday the bad guy not Doomsday Avengers. Oh no, not the film.

49:29I didn't mean to sound like that. But what has Doomsday done to upset you? Why so harsh? Doomsday is just a complete monster. All he wants is just a destruction of everything. Oh, I see. So the serial rapist can win. But Doomsday, on the other hand, I see what you're doing here.

49:44Chris Hewitt:Doomsday has hopes. Doomsday has dreams. He's got families. He owns pets. He has thoughts and feelings. Right. Unbelievable. Yeah. God, you're a monster. Does he have pets? Yes, a hamster called Gerald. Wow, that's very humanizing. Yeah. I was surprised that that family died. I was too. I really, really didn't see that coming. No, sorry. And I didn't love it. Yeah, I didn't love it as a plot point. And I think you're right. I think it is there to try and justify the murder at the end. But I still didn't love it. It's an interesting thing to do. We talked about it, Gillespie and I. We talked about, you know, and he basically thinks The whole movie is essentially setting out the idea that Kara is not Kal-El, that she is not Clark Kent, that she is on similar train tracks, but at the same time parallel train tracks that are going off and doing the crazy shit all over the place.

50:41Chris Hewitt:And so she would not do what Clark would do in that situation. This version of Clark in the DC would not have done that. There's no question about that whatsoever, but she would. And I get exactly what you're talking about, Helen, but I also think it's an interesting thing to explore we are going to see this character going forward which I'm happy about because I think Millie Alcock is tremendous in this movie and she's going to be a man of tomorrow how much we see of her beyond that I think is dependent on the box office for this movie which at the moment the prognostications are not brilliant they're fine but it's kind of maybe not even Mandalorian kind of levels of box office which is not great so we will see her going forward but if we do get to see her going forward, she'll have to live with this.

51:25Chris Hewitt:And presumably, she has exiled herself from Earth. And this is one of the stuff I really want to get into with this character as well because I'm fascinated by this. She has exiled herself from Earth and she is kind of living this life of, well, not necessarily debauchery, but she's experiencing a very, very different side of life from Clark. She doesn't have Clark as a kind of moral North Star or a moral arbiter in a way. And now she's back on Earth and there's a kind of tentative rapprochement at the end of this movie, right? And so presumably going forward now, she's going to be, Clark is going to be there as her guide, as her moral guide through the universe.

52:09So maybe what she has done

52:12Chris Hewitt:will come back to haunt her at some point. It's interesting that she doesn't need to be Superman Part 2. She doesn't need to go through the same thing, have the same moral approach to the universe. She doesn't have the same outlook on life as Clark. So I like the fact there's a little bit of an interesting wrinkle in there, that there's going to be a little bit of pain, a little bit of red in her ledger. It's not a bad thing to have, I think, going forward. I think, look, I completely agree she's a very different character to Clark because Clark knows intellectually that his planet died. Clark knows intellectually that he has a whole people that he has lost.

52:46but Clark never knew those people really except as holograms who you know he met when he was a teenager he doesn't he has an intellectual understanding of the tragedy of Krypton but he wasn't there and he didn't live through it again I think in the comic book she lives through Krypton and Argo dying and it was interesting that they had her born after Krypton falls here and that Argo did not die in this film which is interesting but anyway Argo who did not die But she has lost her people in the comic at least twice over. She has experienced unimaginable tragedy twice over on a personal level. She has lived through it.

53:26She has seen the bodies, as it were. She has lost her parents, both of them, in the comic. And so she has a personal understanding of tragedy on a level that is off the charts compared to Clark. and that is the root in the books of her kindness to others. That tragedy powers her and it's not easy and she can be a dick about it sometimes depending on the writer but generally speaking that is what powers her already.

53:54Chris Hewitt:And maybe this will be the thing that powers her. Maybe, but I... I don't get that sense that... Keeping her, starting her from this place is so unnecessary. I mean, maybe naive. I, you know, there's a whole idea that, you know, oh my God, when she says to Ruthie this is going to haunt you for the rest of your life is like, or maybe it'll just be quite cathartic. I'm not sure that she'll revisit this. I don't think she'll think twice about it. Okay, but here's something. Is there a sense that she's speaking from experience there? Well, she killed someone at the beginning of the film, so possibly.

54:21Chris Hewitt:So maybe she is already haunted. So for her, Krem is just another notch on the old bedpost of body counts. Another notch on the old cudgel of death. Yeah. So I don't think that this is the big thing that it is for Kal-El, for example, in Man of Steel, when he is forced without choice. What do I do? I don't kill this is it it was written by someone years ago that I don't kill so therefore I don't kill and now this guy is going to be out of control so I'm forced with an almost impossible choice but in this moment for for for Cara it's just sadly but it's just another it's just another dude who needs to be put down and that's I wonder if we've spent 40 minutes talking about this but you're right it's an interesting thing to talk about yeah yeah I don't get the sense that she's going to be haunted by this honestly no I think she's very much at peace with it.

55:10But equally, it shouldn't be just another dude who needs to be put down. That's not a Supergirl thing. It's not. I don't know, I'm quite into it. It's not. I like Lobo's approach to murder as well. I'm quite on board with him as well. Who we have not discussed, I should point out. We'll get there. But yeah, especially with Man and Steel, I have to kill in order to learn not to kill is a really stupid thing. It doesn't really make any sense, I'll give you that. I can't stand it. And especially when that guy is Superman, it just fundamentally goes against what I think and believe about what the character is and who and how he should be portrayed on screen.

55:47So, yeah. Batman, on the other hand. Oh, that's my point. Jesus Christ.

55:52Chris Hewitt:Anyway, Lobo. Okay, fuck it. Why not? What do we think of Lobo? Didn't love. Oh, no. Why? I didn't think there was anything particularly new or interesting about the character. That's really not. I mean, look, he is a character. He's one of those big bulky characters of the 90s that a certain kind of man loves who are not my favorite characters historically, right? Yeah. But that said, I felt Jason Momoa having the time of his life coming through the screen to me, and therefore I had fun as well. And I did think he was having a grand old time. Did he belong in this film? Probably not. Did he need to be there?

56:33I would say definitely not however

56:36Chris Hewitt:I'm glad he was he was fun and yeah I quite enjoyed that I enjoyed his intro I enjoyed when he shows up in that bar and he's given a nice anti-heroic introduction he's shot very very well and you get the sense that even Cara who is basically invulnerable is scared of this dude and I enjoyed that scene in the prison cell where he's in prison I couldn't get a grasp on what he was because I'm not a big DC fan. I think people listening to these know that. So I don't really know Lobo that much. I don't think I've ever read a Lobo comic or a comic in which Lobo has appeared as a character. So I'm not aware.

57:13Chris Hewitt:I've read, obviously, the Wikipedia and I've read stuff about him and I know he's a super, super immortal, infundable type dude. But I don't think the film does a particularly good job of setting out what exactly it is he's capable of. No. And how powerful he can be. because he gets captured and imprisoned. Yeah, I think that's kind of the problem for me. On one hand, you have Kara sort of going, don't make eye contact. He killed his entire planet. He killed his entire planet. And she could maybe hold herself in a fight with him, but she definitely doesn't want to start anything. She doesn't want Ruthie to become cracked.

57:49Yeah, exactly, because there's civilians around and there's just like a planet around that he could sort of accidentally tear up. So that was funny. That was effective. but then you just see him in this cell that a 13-year-old girl is able to get out of, ultimately. And, okay, partly that's by playing on her perceived vulnerability. But even so, it's, no, Lobo shouldn't be in the cell, fundamentally. I was trying to understand that, but I assumed it was part of, because he alludes to the fact that he's laid a trap or something, but I wonder whether he wanted to be there for some reason. Like, maybe he was waiting for the Mohawk guy to turn up or something.

58:27because I kind of assumed he could just get out. But he still asks Ruthie He does, yeah. He does just ask her. I was kind of expecting at that point for her to get out here for him to go, all right, fine and just kick the door open or something. I did enjoy the intro though not only because of what Lobo was doing but it's one of the more genuinely funny moments where Kara sort of mouthing Ruthie's introduction that she says to her. Yes. I thought that was good. My innocent and honourable family. Yeah. I thought that was fun. I could have... I wish this film were funnier than it was overall.

59:01Chris Hewitt:Yeah, because it invites Guardians comparisons. Absolutely. For a number of reasons, not least James Gunn's involvement. But you have a hero who is listening to old-timey Earth songs that I don't know when she found the time to become intimately acquainted with Earth songs, given that she's been on Earth for about three minutes. She's been there a little while, to be fair. How old is she when she lands? I think she's in her teenage years. So seven years. Yeah, I would say. That's not a lot of time to get acquainted with those music. I guess the young people nowadays are listening to old iPods rather than just having music on their phones, right?

59:40But although I still think even the young people are not necessarily using those kind of over-ear headphones, that felt very Guardians to me.

59:47Chris Hewitt:It felt very Guardians coded, and I'm surprised they even went down that way because even the color of the headphones used to say, it was just like, that's the same color as Peter Quill's headphones. what are you doing but the color palette is very Guardian Sea the tone of it is very Guardian Sea one of the things I loved about the movie was how alien the universe felt like she's constantly running into people who are not just simply humanoids and I really really loved that and there's a whole smattering of alien languages and dialects and I thought that was absolutely terrific and it's not just simply with their skin people with their skin painted blue although I like that and I think there's a place for that absolutely in cinema and I did I enjoyed the movie I really did enjoy the movie I thought it was a decent entry in this fledgling universe.

1:00:28Chris Hewitt:But it also felt like it would be comfortably the weakest Guardians of the Galaxy movie, if it were a Guardians of the Galaxy movie. And I'm surprised that they unfighted those comparisons as openly and overtly as they did. Yeah, I think that's fair. Yeah. I wonder if they would have ranked it against the Guardians film slightly differently than we would. I don't know. But yes, I think that it does seem to be kind of like Guardians karaoke a little bit. And I guess Craig Gillespie was brought in in part to give it that kind of energy and needle drops and stuff that he brought to... He said he was a real fan of Guardians.

1:01:01Right. He loves those movies. And I guess that's what they were trying to do. But yeah, it does feel like a very sort of weak monochrome copy of those films. I like, to your point, Chris, that it feels as alien as it does in some respects. But why wouldn't you reflect that musically? Have no needle drops. Have something that feels otherworldly and alien when they go to the bar rather than something else. Yeah, the bar breaking into an old earth standard was bizarre. It just made the universe feel so small. That was weird. That was weird. I mean, it should have been like a cantina song or something.

1:01:33A hundred percent. Her listening to earth music, I'm totally on board with it. But the bar playing it, it's like, what is going on? The scenes are talking about music. The score. Oh, gosh. There we go.

1:01:44Chris Hewitt:Ipanepa, wasn't it? Ipanepa, what's it? Girlfriend, Ipanema. That's it, Ipanema. That's it. I like that because that's such a cliche of movies. If you're going to sing something, you might as well sing The Girl of Mipenema. But the score by Claudia Sani is solid. It's fine. I like that it comes to the fore, especially in the final action scene. I wish it was more memorable and catchy in the moment. I think some of those moments where they give scenes to needle drops would have been better said, giving it to score in order to maybe help establish that memorability with the audience. I didn't really get that on this first watch at least.

1:02:25But yeah, I think it's overall a solid score. I'm glad that they found a woman to do it for a film of this magnitude, which is in keeping with other big superhero sort of films spotlighting women that I've done it for. I think it was Pinal Toppock did the Captain Marvel score, and Laura Carpenter did the score for the Marvel. So I'm glad that they have kept up with that.

1:02:51Chris Hewitt:All right. Yeah, I'll be honest. I've seen the film a couple of times now and the score hasn't really made that much of an impact with me, especially when you're second up against Superman and the John Williams theme. Yeah. Which is a tricky act to follow. And Superman is a tricky act to follow, even if James Gunn's movie wasn't as beloved as previous iterations of the character have been. Not saying David Coren's, but he was fantastic in that movie, but I don't think that the movie is as universally beloved as, say, Richard Donner's Superman. But I still think it's a very, very solid follow-up to that.

1:03:26Chris Hewitt:And it's way better than the previous Supergirl movie. We should say that, by the way. That is a dreadful, dreadful, dreadful movie. Do not watch it unless, of course, you want some ironic chuckles. But is it an interesting choice to make for the second film in the DCU, Hellspells? Why did they do Supergirl and not say, for example, Wonder Woman or another Batman or a Flash movie or Aquaman well a couple of those have blotted their copybooks in recent years so that might be a reason Supergirl is unsullied Supergirl is unsullied and if anything is coming off a quite beloved TV show although albeit with completely recasting and rethinking and a slightly different approach to that TV show Supergirl was in the Flash of course yes Sasha Kiley yeah the show was good until it wasn't I used to really enjoy it and then it became so bad I couldn't be myself to watch it anymore.

1:04:22It reminded people that the character had potential and yet had run through that potential. That's not a bad place to start from. I can absolutely see why they went for Supergirl and I think it's not a bad thing to use the Superman iconography to launch this character but also try creates some open water between her and Supes. I think it's solid. As an idea, it's totally solid. It makes sense to me. Yeah, I still want to see more Wonder Woman, like way more Wonder Woman on screen, but we probably need to give it a minute.

1:04:56Chris Hewitt:We are recording this, we should say, before the film comes out in the cinemas. As I said earlier, it is predicted to do a bunch of, not brilliantly, like a 50, 55 million dollar opening weekend. I don't know what it's going to do around the world. Maybe 80, 90 million, something like that so it'll get to 200 million but whether it gets to 300 million I'm not so sure yeah it's a solid choice and as we've all said like you know we do like this movie yeah and it's just tricky because we have the MCU to hold this up against in that we know this strategy the Infinity Saga in terms of building momentum between projects the way that they did that it worked and obviously that's not what they're going with here um but thinking about what we've gotten so far and thinking about what's coming up i struggle to realize and to try and connect the dots in terms of how is this going to build momentum between that between this which is creating like a shared storytelling thing that's going to lead to this this this again we're still quite early in this and i know that there's some connected the issue between Superman and Peacemaker especially.

1:06:10But I don't think Clayface, I'm not sure how that's going to fit in. I don't think it will. I don't think it will. Lanterns, I don't know how that's going to fit in.

1:06:19Chris Hewitt:I think that will because there's an RMPR in Man of Tomorrow. That is true. So I think it will. Okay, well there you go. But yeah, I'm not feeling the momentum as of yet. By the way, I'm hugely excited about. And it's really interesting because Tom King is a writer on that. and it's one of the things I've never quite understood with comic book movies why they don't just get the writers who are fantastic and phenomenally talented why didn't they get Tom King and I know they probably wanted to have a woman write this but why didn't they get Tom King to at least have a bash at it he did it pretty well first time around why not do it again or get Gail Simone or someone like that yeah yeah absolutely I'm not sure if Gail Simone wants to it sounds like she's had some conversations on some properties and she's very happy to consult with people I don't know if she She wants to write screenplays.

1:07:06Chris Hewitt:It's a different but similar discipline, of course. There may be some of that. I get like Anna Noguera has been working with James Gunn for five or six years now, since pretty much pandemic time. So they obviously have a working relationship, which is a good starting point here. But yeah, look, I think absolutely more comic book writers making comic book movies could absolutely be a cool thing. And I don't know about momentum. I mean, at this point in the MCU, we were at Incredible Hulk, right? So, you know, I'm not sure we would have necessarily, In fact, we weren't sanguine about their level of momentum at that time.

1:07:38Chris Hewitt:I think people forget just how tentative those early steps were. The next film I've got was Iron Man 2. Or, if you will, Man of Tomorrow, which is Superman 2, essentially. It's not a wildly dissimilar strategy until you get to playface. I don't think it's out of the question that Man of Tomorrow really builds on goodwill from Superman and gets close to 800, 900 million, even maybe a billion if it really capitalizes on people loving that movie. I hope so, because I love him as this character so much. Every time he was on screen, I was just like, what a great Superman he is. He's pressing all my Christopher Reeve buttons.

1:08:16I think he's fantastic. And so I just want a story and a film that lives up to his embodiment of that character.

1:08:24Chris Hewitt:But is there an argument to be made that if this film doesn't do well at the box office and Superman did it's one of those ridiculous it's one of those ridiculous things where you're going a movie that made nearly 700 million dollars at the worldwide box office is perceived as a disappointment but it was and if this doesn't do well and Clayface isn't going to be a five, six hundred million dollars it's just not it might do well I mean Christ obsession it might be it might be the obsession of superhero movies and start packing them in week after week we don't know and to be clear I'm really really excited for that film Yeah, and with all the upheaval that's going on with the Warner Brothers situation, whether it ends up at Paramount, it's Paramount at the moment, isn't it?

1:09:07Chris Hewitt:Or Netflix, or maybe we'll take it over, who knows? You know, is there an argument to be made that if Man of Tomorrow doesn't hit as big as it might or needs to, that there might not be many more steps in the DCU beyond this? Is it already on borrowed time? I think they will probably still try and keep making DC films of some sort. Obviously, we've also got The Batman 2, which is sort of outside that sort of central James Gunn-ian focus. But I do wonder if James Gunn will stick around, Peter Saffron will stick around at that point, if DC Studios will sort of cease to be effectively and semi-independent.

1:09:45Obviously, it's not independent, but its own little entity and will sort of be folded back into the main studio if there'll be less emphasis on shared worlds, if everyone will just stop trying to do what Marvel's done effectively, because it hasn't proved repeatable.

1:10:00Chris Hewitt:I mean, Marvel will stop doing it. I mean, that's arguable as well. But like, you know, Sony's universe of Spider-Man characters doesn't seem to be doing so well these days. You know, they're still making Spider-Man movies, but they're not trying to desperately to make, you know, spin things off. They've run out of spump, Helen. They've run out of spump. and I think maybe that's the way that DC goes maybe that we have a bunch more of fucking Batman movies working woke but I'm just like focus on individual stories and sure you know if you want to have crossover characters here and there do it but I think individual storytelling is definitely the way to go rather than trying to kind of reverse engineer some huge money making cross shared universe crossover extravaganza you know because lest we forget like as we've kind of already talked about the Marvel movies they didn't start out thinking we're going to make these and this is our plan to turn it into this beast it was organic and it felt organic and any attempt to replicate that has felt cynical at best I mean from the off they were heading towards the Avengers that's what we're doing but everything else has been organic since then and each step of that was very sort of if this works then we'll head towards the Avengers and there was a lot of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat and a lot of making it up as they went as well so you know but we've only got a few minutes left because our very own supergirl Helen has to leave so I've made a decision in the moment that we're going to do a Supergirl listeners question special because there's a lot of stuff we're not going to get around to talking about in the next five minutes.

1:11:26Chris Hewitt:Including Seth Rogen's cameo as a tiny little space bus driver. Love to. The action scenes which I thought some of them were absolutely terrific. The performances blah blah blah blah blah. But there's a couple of things I want to talk about real quick before we do if we can in the next five minutes. One is continuing the Lobo conversation because is Lobo's presence in this movie a cynical attempt to win over Neckbeard. Yes. Who have taken down in the past the likes of the Marvels. I don't know if he was cynical. So the reason, I guess, for thinking he wasn't cynical is, number one, when they started this story, the comic, the original idea was True Grit with Lobo as Rooster and Supergirl as the girl.

1:12:11And then they kind of thought it'd be more interesting if Supergirl was Rooster and they had a different girl. So there is a kind of connection between Lobo and this story. So that exists. That's a real thing. And there is also a perception, and I think James Gunn has talked about this, and certainly Craig Gillespie has also talked about this, he is the biggest unfilmed comic book character left. And that may be like, come on already, let's do Lobo. And you've got Jason Momoa openly planning, ultimately campaigning for Lobo since James Gunn was announced as taking over the DC. So that's the uncynical view.

1:12:46But yeah, I think that is probably prophylactic, if you will, in trying to stave off some of the usual sexist criticism and some of the usual, oh, I won't go see this, I don't know anyone who will. I've never spoken to a woman.

1:13:00Chris Hewitt:But don't worry, Lobo turns up! Because I do feel like he is very coded to that specific kind of comic nerd who does have a history of behaving badly, if we're honest. And look, this is hashtag not all comics nerds, right? Not all Lobo fans. Yeah, and not all neckbeards either. Some neckbeards are very nice people. I do actually know some nice neckbeards, but I think there is a crossover between the kind of guy who complains about female leads in superhero movies and the kind of guy who reads Lobo comics, and I do think there is a crossover there. Again, not all Lobo fans. The kind of people who use woke as an insult.

1:13:37Yes, the kind of people who use female when they talk about women and girls.

1:13:42Chris Hewitt:Said like a true woke female. I know, I so am. But yeah, so I do think there's maybe an element of that sort of, you know, like get your defense in early, get your offense in early. Quite possibly. But equally, and this is the last thing, and this is real, real quick, I also think the movie should be given props. I don't think it quite knows how to integrate Lobo into the story. But, you know, he's fine in it. He's totally fine. And I'd be interested in seeing him again because you're absolutely right, Momoa is a perfect marriage of character and actor. But Superman in this movie is really interesting because the easy thing for them to do would have been to turn this into a Supergirl-Superman team-up at some point and have him come in despite the optics of that situation.

1:14:27Chris Hewitt:It's all right, little girl cousin, don't worry. Superman's here and he'll save the day. So I'm so glad they didn't do that. Were you happy with how they parceled him out in the movie and the role that he did play? Yeah, very much so. As I said, any time he popped up on screen, that dynamic between Kara and Clark I think has done really, really well. and I'm excited to see more of them in the future now that Supergirl has gone on the journey that she has. So, yeah, that's good. He's such a lovable doofus. He's such a doofus. I mean, just the whole, I don't speak Kryptonian, but then just babbling incessantly at her and not really knowing what he's doing.

1:15:02Fighting her to go bowling. It's like, I've been tracking you and he's clearly like super excited that she's there but doesn't want to freak her out. Like, it's just the most Clark slash Kal-El thing you can possibly imagine and I absolutely adored that scene. So yeah, I thought their relationship was done really well because you can absolutely see why she would look at him like, are you for fucking real? Are you kidding me with this? You know, because she's been through so much, as we said, and because she's been through all of these horrendous experiences and you've got this guy who's the most optimistic creature in the universe.

1:15:34Chris Hewitt:And from his point of view, you can see exactly why he, when he FaceTimes her on her ship at the beginning of the movie and he's kind of like, I don't know how to deal with her. I have no experience of this. She's younger than me. She's from a different part of the world, universe, galaxy than me. It's like I'm speaking a different language to her and I'm handling her with kid gloves and I'm a bit scared of her, to be honest. And I find it interesting, like if you think back to Superman last year and the frustration he had with the dog and kept saying, it's not my dog, kind of does give an interesting little wrinkle to this relationship.

1:16:09He is capable of being frustrated with her.

1:16:13Chris Hewitt:There's a bond there. There's clearly love there, but it's still a relationship that has... He deeply wants a connection with her. And I think they've built some kind of connection as it's clear from that final scene. There is some pre-existing connection there, but it's clearly been strained, been imperfect. And he finds her almost, I think, as frustrating as the dog. But he will go out of his way to help both. Absolutely. I like that you can feel her admiration for him. And you can also sense that he's trying to be patient with her without it being necessarily verbally spoken about. I think that's really good.

1:16:49Chris Hewitt:He's stuffy and condescending, but that's just me. I think the super pod just called a super kettle black.

1:16:59Physician, heal myself.

1:17:02Chris Hewitt:Be more Superman, you're saying to me. Thank you, Chris. what I mean is snap people's necks yes no kill them all kill them all like a twig kill them all Kal-El on that note that is it for our first Supergirl Sparta Special there's so much more I want to delve into about this movie we will do a listener question special in a week or so after the film has come out send me in your questions ctah1976 on Instagram I'm also Chris Hute on Blue Sky and on Twitter as well slide into my DMs ask us all the things that you want us to tackle. That's basically it. But Helen, you have to run because you're hosting something quite important.

1:17:39Chris Hewitt:So I do not want to get in the way of that lest you kill me. And that's for my premiere. So goodbye to James. Goodbye. Goodbye to Amon. Murder, murder, murder. Goodbye to Amon. He said peace, so goodbye to Amon. Goodbye, Helen. Toodaloo. And it's goodbye from me. Helen, you hold the hopes and dreams of an entire nation on your back. Don't fuck it up. Goodbye. Oh God, no pressure. Solidarity. I'm in LA