Superman: The Team Empire Take

23:28Ben Travis:The whole DCEU in front of me. Does it make Suicide Squad look like the Suicide Squad? I'm going to say it right here and right now I think Suicide Squad is better No! What? Get out of town What? Genuinely I would be hard pressed I'm sure they exist but I would be hard pressed Aquaman 2 included to find a DCEU film I do not prefer to do this Superman This is how much I don't like it and yet I live in an alternate universe a pocket universe if you will in which you're all fucking mad and I don't understand what happens Everything you just said in the last 60 seconds It's completely and utterly fact-share.

24:05Do you want me to do it again? No. Wrong! Wow! It has been so extraordinarily divisive. I will say we did briefly tee this up as the review came through as two stars from Sophie Butcher, who I think was a great person to review this because she likes comic book movies. She has liked James Gunn's work. she did not come to this film saddled with any kind of baggage. No. She just watched it. Because he took it off before she went in. You have to put your phone in. You have to put your phone away. And she's a woman who knows her own mind.

24:41Ben Travis:She will not be swayed on things. If she disagrees, she will just fucking go ahead. Me and Alex being down on it would not have shaped her opinion of this one job.

24:50Chris Hewitt:She said on her Instagram story, I still haven't read her review, but she said on her Instagram story, I really wanted to like this movie. I'm sorry, guys. because I think she knows that people will pounce upon this review. I mean, Jesus, you know, I wouldn't put my head on a pyramid like that. Since the attack of the clones, I've learned my fucking lesson. But yeah, it's wild because you do attract, oh, she's a Marvel shill. She hates DC. She hates Superman. None of that's true. I disagreed with her review because she had a huge problem with the Mediores thing. She said, oh, I don't expect an origin story, but also didn't like the Medioress.

25:28And I thought the Medioress thing was done quite well. We know who Superman is. We know where he comes from. We know his entire supporting cast. We can give you 10 seasons of Smallville backstory if you want it. I'd really rather you do. I've seen them all. So why not? Why? We don't need to start over. We can just jump in and get this and that's okay. Now, I will say, like I say, I have some notes about this movie. I do think that there's a lot of information being dumped on you very quickly at the start, not in terms of the opening sort of text or even in terms of Superman's lost a fight and he's got to figure out, but just to sort of get your head around, okay, so there were two warring countries and now Lex Luthor is manipulating this guy who's calling himself the Hammer of Bravia, but okay, it's becoming gradually clear that's not who he is.

26:12He's somebody else, but who is he? And how do we get our head around this? And who's this engineer person? It's dense. It is dense. That first few moments is a lot to kind of get your head around, which is why I think one of the reasons I enjoyed it much more second time around. But at the same time, if you just watch the film, it explains it all. I think as well, the in media res stuff, as much as that really worked for me, one of my criticisms of the film is that as a result, he has to put in several lines at the beginning where a person will basically be like, hello, I am this person, I do this thing, and I am going to do this now.

26:49Because it throws you into this world, you can't leave audiences entirely high and dry and there's a little bit too much clunky dialogue at the beginning where characters are just having to effectively introduce themselves but for the most part the world that it introduces I fully bought and believed in.

27:06Chris Hewitt:What do you think it meant in terms of I think the central relationship of any Superman movie it is of course between Jimmy Olsen and Perry White now what do you think it meant for Lois and Clark because there's an interesting kind of little fake out whenever she goes back to her apartment just ahead of the 10-minute interview scene, which didn't quite ring true for me, where she feels like, oh, who's this intruder? Who's this intruder in my... No, not the interview scene. The interview, right. Oh, there's an intruder. Let me grab my baseball bat. Who could it possibly be? Oh, it's my boyfriend, Superman.

27:46Chris Hewitt:Of course it's your boyfriend, Superman. He can let himself in without a key, presumably. but what did you make of that relationship overall one of my criticisms of the film is that I don't think we were given enough time with Lois and Clark they basically have five scenes together in the movie there's an extended sequence in Smallville where they go back to his hometown of course but that's mainly taken up with Forge in a relationship with his parents there's the opening scene when they're in the Daily Planet there's the scene the big interview scene which is a bit of an argument a bit of a falling out then I think there's his house I think yeah but after but before that there's the scene where he lets himself in to their apartment and the dimensional imp is wreaking havoc in Metropolis outside yeah that's what I meant by his place oh is that his place that's presumably his place I thought it was their place no because at the beginning it's her place okay so that must by a process of elimination be his place it doesn't look very him but I guess it must I thought it was I thought it was her place he was letting himself into her place.

28:49Chris Hewitt:That's interesting. It's not the same apartment. Oh, I thought it was. I'm not very good at spotting this. Sorry, production designer, you've wasted your time. So whatever place he lets himself into, they have that discussion and that's where he tells her that he loves her. Then they have, they don't see each other again and refreshingly, she doesn't become a damsel in distress. He becomes a damsel in distress? Or is that F1? I can't remember. But anyway, so she saves him. Then they go to Smallville. have a couple of little tiny moments there. And then because of the machinations of the plot, they are kept apart until the end where they do the big super bob, smackeroonie, floating up into the air.

29:28Chris Hewitt:He says, I love you in that scene with the dimensional imp outside. And I think James Gunn is relying on everybody bringing their own baggage with that. Well, of course he loves her because he's Clark Kent and she's Lois Lane. And that's the way the world works. I would have liked to have been shown it a little more than told it. I also would like another scene or two of them. I think I would have liked another scene or two of them, another scene or two of Superman and Lex, or just Lex being Lex. And maybe I could have done with one fewer scenes of the kaiju and or crypto. That would have made it better for me.

30:09But those to me are nits to pick rather than fundamental problems with the film. Agreed. for me I actually thought it really worked because part of the conception of this relationship is that he is going through a terrible time in this movie as Superman he has learned things about himself that are very distressing for him to understand whilst also it being other levels of like Lex manipulation to turn the whole world against him whilst Lois she's a busy woman she's got a job to do and I like that the moments you have of them together really worked for me. Oh my God. Can we talk about the kiss at the end for a bit?

30:53That was an outstanding movie kiss. I felt that so much. There were so many moments in this that made me feel a bit emotional or really kind of swept me off my feet and that, no pun intended, is one of them when they finally have that little moment together and they run off. Chris, you mentioned in The Office I think the kiss in the apartment might be even better than the final kiss there was something there was like an extra smooch factor in the final kiss I felt the chemistry between them that when they were together I believed in their relationship I believed they were early in their relationship and they were kind of figuring each other out and that also her whole thing is I'm extremely strong willed and I'm going to say my peace he is on the defensive because that kind of taps into what this version of Superman is, which I'm sure we'll discuss as we get on in the pod.

31:46But they also have their own shit going on. So they are just busy and caught up in the same tangled web, but doing their own things. And then when they do get together, I felt that strongly. I quite enjoyed the movie's shit-talking about both of their journalism. There's a lot of general shit-talking in the Daily Planet offices about whether people can write or not. We wouldn't know anything about that, would we?

32:11Ben Travis:No, it's not. It's not like us at all. No. Although we're not that specific. We don't slag off each other's adverb usage usually. Maybe you do. Attack of the Clones is a five-star film. Sorry, go on, Chris.

32:20Chris Hewitt:I do miss a little bit, I love in the Donner films that Lois is a terrible speller. And a guy you would just not get away with these days. There's only one PN rapist. You definitely would not get away. I also love that the reason, in the Donner films, the reason Perry hired him is have you seen how fast he can type? which is delightful but anyway that's obviously not the thing here but also think about this one Clark is still young enough in his career early enough in his career that he is getting congratulatory phone calls from his parents when he gets a front page story so he's not like he may be getting some of the Superman interviews but it doesn't feel like he's been you know glory hogging Superman if you like like we were he's not going full

33:04Ben Travis:Peter Parker he's sleeping his way to the top people are going to be asking questions I love the scenes between Lois and Clark I think Brosnan had is fantastic. I thought Corrin's work was really good. I thought Corrin's work was great. Yeah, I really enjoyed them together. They were my, I mean, it's a shame the rest of the film wasn't good, but these individual scenes were actually very good. And I thought they had great chemistry. I thought those scenes were constructed. I thought the interview was a kind of a masterstroke because it showed a sight of Superman that we don't often see, which is the frustration between the law versus objective morality and the fact that he's trying to do good, but he's being hamstrung by geopolitics.

33:35Ben Travis:And I think that's fantastic. I have a law point on that. Oh, hit me with it.

33:39Chris Hewitt:Is this Superman's rare? Very good. Kind of, yes, actually, it is. Here's the thing. Superman is admittedly, well, we know him to be American because we know that Clark Kent is, at the very least, presumably a naturalized American citizen or would have been under previous dreamer laws and the like. Perhaps not. Less than now. Yeah, I would 100 % be on his tail right now. But they kind of aren't. But Superman is assumed by the world to be American but is not definitely technically American and could, quite frankly, and maybe should, quite frankly, from a legal perspective, be working for the UN because his actions in Jaranpur are essentially what UN peacekeepers should be doing and what they should be empowered to do quick enough to prevent wars.

34:28Almost all wars are illegal in international law. Superman, in international law, is innocent. So that is the law that he should be judged by, and that's the law that he should be acting under as a sort of UN representative. And if I were head of the UN, I would be signing him up.

34:48Ben Travis:Well, you do a better job than the person currently in that role. But let's not get too tied up in that particular issue. Yeah, let's not bring real-world politics into a discussion of this movie. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, let's get on to that a little bit later. But no, I really like that idea of it, And I like the idea that his frustration that, oh, because they're an American ally, who gives a shit? And he's just like, and I like that he butts up against the real politic of that. He finds it so frustrating and he loses his shit, which is something you don't see Superman do all the time. I really like that.

35:18Ben Travis:Yeah. Sorry, Ben. It was a really interesting scene for them to like cut down for the trailer because the cut down version in the trailer is like, ooh, a bit of sparky Lois Lane Superman Clark stuff. And then he's like, why is Superman so angry? This feels a bit strange. but the full version of that scene with all of the context and the back and forth and the ebb and flow of like, okay, I'm going to like cool down for a second. Let's get back into the interview. And the pushing, the prodding was so well done. I think it was a weird choice for them to use that in the marketing. But that full version was great.

35:50It's such a good film. It's a brave thing. It's very His Girl Friday and deliberately so.

35:55Chris Hewitt:Yeah. I mean, I said this to Gunn. I'm not going to spoil what he said, but I said it's a bold swing because you're basically, when I spoke to Cornswit, he said that they shot basically it's 10 % of the movie and they shot it in two days. So he would be doing some of his other Superman stuff where he'd be flying on a rig against green screen or blue screen. And, you know, you'd be standing there all day doing that. I'm holding my arms in the air as if you're flying. And you'd get five seconds of footage. And then they'd go into that and then, boom, two days, they've got 10 % of the movie. And you're slowing the movie down for a good, it's a good 10 minutes.

36:28Chris Hewitt:I asked Gunn how long it was. And it's about 10 minutes, I would say. But the preamble, not even including the scene in the kitchen beforehand. It's a good, it's a solid chunk of time. And it's a really, I think it's a really interesting and bold scene. It may be the best scene in the movie. But to do that so early in your film as well, I thought this was fascinating, to be honest. Yeah, me too. But it is interesting because it does show us the man side of Superman. And that's what this movie is interested in. Snyder and the Henry Cavill version of Superman and I'm not as down in Man of Steel as I once was I still think it gets a lot wrong in the third act but having revisited it a couple of times you know I think some of the imagery is extraordinary some of the iconography is incredible Cavill is solid as hell and then Sod turns up and it all turns to shit and also I love Hans Zimmer's score for that as do I yeah it's not a patch 100cc it's a pure Johnny Williams adrenaline but then what is But that was about Superman as a Christ figure.

37:35Chris Hewitt:So was Bryan Singer's Superman Returns, where he literally falls to earth in a Christ pose and then kind of dies for our sins. And Donner didn't shy away from the emotion of Superman because in that heartbreaking moment in Superman 1 where Lois dies and you can see the raw pain edged on Superman's face. That is something that he absolutely embraced. but you also got a sense that Chris Reeve was a living god just the way that he walked the way he held himself the way he interacted with the people he was an incredibly decent honorable man the actor and the character and there was a sense of zen almost in his Superman there was like just like a calmness like a serenity a calmness absolutely serenity now is what you would shout to that Superman but Cornsweat who I think is terrific and honestly in the trailers which I wasn't on board with I was like oh I'm not so sure about this guy I'm not so sure about this guy I really do think

38:35Ben Travis:he's terrific in this he has a fallibility that I rather liked and it's not a side of Superman we often see but it was fun it felt like a fresh take on it because to me that speaks to exactly who this Superman is and I think it's in the story I think it's in the characterization I think it's all the way through the film that this is yes a superhero he has all of these abilities he's super strong blah blah blah but he is also just a guy who is trying and he is a guy who is always trying and he's not necessarily going to make the right call or he might get into a situation like um the one that leads to that interview with him and lois where he he gets into a situation that he maybe shouldn't intervene in or that he you know underestimates the context of why that would not be a great thing to get involved in um but he will always be trying like people have pointed out that he constantly is getting the shit beaten out of him in this film.

39:31But he always gets back up. He always gets back up. And to me, everything about this version of the character that comes through in that interview, that comes through in all of the action scenes, comes down to the fundamental opposite of what Zack Snyder saw with Man of Steel, where he's like, he is a god amongst men and we love him, but we cower before the power of a god who can never be one of us. And this Superman, this Clark Kent, speaks more to like, okay, well, what can we all do? We don't have superpowers. We don't have the abilities that Superman has. But if this Superman, yes, has those abilities, but also is just a guy who is trying and will try every time and will try and make the best call that he can and try and do right by the people, that fundamental essence I felt entirely in David Corrin's performance and I think it's so much in the plot and in the fiber of this film all the way through and in that speech at the end I mean he literally says as much I just love that I 100 % agree with that I think the humanity of this Superman is off the charts he is my favorite Superman including TV since Reeve

40:47Chris Hewitt:Dean Cain Tom Welling will never send you a Christmas card after this they've all been good I don't think there's been a bad Superman to be clear I don't think any of them have been bad only in retrospect at the time it was fine no I never liked him he just he always looked wrong but I don't think there's been a bad one and I think he is he is superb I think in the role and I just I love that I love that that sense that he does get up and keep trying and that he is resilient and that he inspires everyone around him it's not just Superman saving the day it's not just Superman lifting a fucking heavy thing Bryan Singer

41:25it's Superman inspiring the God help us justice gang to go out and actually do some good they're not being paid for it's Superman inspiring you know Lois and colleagues to go above and beyond to get the story and get it out there while they are literally fleeing a tumbling down city they're still working like and we'd be gone

41:46Chris Hewitt:let's be honest we'd be gone no one needs a movie podcast at this point we're out of here That's what's special about it. And that's what is impressive about this take on Superman. And I think it gets to the goodness in him. I like how relatable and how funnable he is, even in those early moments where he's getting his ass kicked by the hammer of Boravia. And the winter Superman, I think you'll find. Or Super Bucky, possibly. Someone else thought he looked a lot like Henry Cavill, perhaps deliberately.

42:18Ben Travis:I thought he was deliberately trying to be Black Noir from The Boys, which made it slightly difficult to take him seriously but carry on. That's pretty much the Ultraman look though, isn't it? Yeah. It feels like the cross between Ultraman and Bizarro was kind of mixing both of those together. You said you had some, you had something to say, you had thoughts. Oh, just on like Tyler Hoechlin and Superman and Lois which is a show that I have brought up on here before. Very good show, fantastic Superman performance. I agree. Before this, I was saying that he was the best sort of modern Superman that we've gotten like since Reeve.

42:50I put him on par with Corn Sweat here. Really, really like that. If you haven't seen that show, I highly recommend it. I have seen it, but I'm slightly further up on Corn Sweat now. Perfect.

43:00Chris Hewitt:You can't get past this double. But it's fine. That's my cross to bear. Superstouble. I really like Brandon Mouth. I know that, you know, it's, you know, easy to rag on Superman Returns for all kinds of reasons. But I really liked him. I thought he was terrific. Even if he was doing, in some ways, a Chris Reeve impression. But I think, you know. There are worse approaches to Superman. Grieve is one of the sort of the totems of Superman and that I think it's almost impossible to go up against. It's a perfect marriage of character and actor. Corn Sweat is very, very good in this, but for me, Reeve remains on the sale of us.

43:38Did we all spot the Will Reeve cameo as a reporter on the ground? Yes. I thought that was a lovely little nod to the Reeves.

43:45Chris Hewitt:Yeah, absolutely. he's the one who introduces the Justice Gang, he fills us in on who they are. What was the name of that documentary? Super Slashman. Fantastic documentary. Yeah, really, really great. And another totem of Superman that this movie really engages with is 100 seasons of pure Johnny Williams adrenaline. Does it? I was very frustrated by the music. It felt like I was being teased by John Williams' score, but they were not delivering at any point on John Williams' score. There were elements of it throughout. They leaned on it very heavily. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that. But then you also have to deliver the score.

44:25And they didn't do that. And I really genuinely struggled with that.

44:29Ben Travis:It's quite manipulative what they did there. I thought it was, and I hate them for it, somewhat effective when deployed. Because it's hard not to be. It's almost Pavlovian, isn't it? You hear it and you feel yourself swell. You sit straight in your seat. You know, it's just like, it's a can't help it. I still think

44:45Chris Hewitt:genuinely yeah I think you're going to say the same thing I still think the score deployment on Superman Returns is the reason that the person who gave that five stars gave it five stars absolutely wait I think Superman Returns five stars and Man of Steel four stars but the less said about any of these things the better Batman versus Superman colon Donna just as six stars yeah I agree entirely because because this movie leans in into a little bit the Superman credits treatment that Donner did for those movies and Richard Lester, of course. But Superman Returns really leans into the score. It leans into the credits treatment.

45:20Chris Hewitt:It's exactly the same. It has the Planet Krypton theme going on there as well. I mean, for the first 10 minutes of that movie, you're just wallowing in nostalgia going, do you remember what it was like when you watched this movie for the first time? It was one of the greatest things you've ever seen. Strap yourselves in because it's about, oh, it's getting a lot worse. But it's still not bad. But then isn't it interesting that this film, in a lot of ways is very specific in trying to revive the feeling of the Christopher Reeve, Richard Donner films in a sense that they're using the John Williams score in their own way.

45:57Everything that James Gunn has talked about in interviews has been about bringing the hope back to Superman, making him approachable, giving you that kind of Christopher Reeve feeling, whilst at the same time, David Corrensweat's version of the character is completely different. The actual world this film presents you with is completely different to the world that you're presented with in the Donner film. I like that they are trying to get to the feeling of the Donner films, get to the essence of what Superman means in that world, whilst actually not giving you a nostalgia retread and giving you something completely different in actuality.

46:35Chris Hewitt:That music is one of the great themes. I mean, that run that John Williams was on between 1977 and that's be generous and say 1983, though you could probably extend it either way. 75, I think, yeah. But I mean, every year from 77 onwards, he produced an all-timer. 77, he did Star Wars. 78, he did Superman. 79, he did Close Encounters. 1980, he did Empire Strikes Back. 1981, he did Raiders of the Lost Ark. 1982, he did E.T. the Extraterrestrial. 1983, he did Return of the Jedi. And then he rested. and saw that it was absolutely incredible. And the Williams scene is so powerful. It's like, it's almost like a, like a black hole pulling directors into it.

47:18Chris Hewitt:You can't resist it. And it is a get out of jail free card. It does infest scenes that might not have been working that brilliantly with a little bit of Brio. And those moments when it worked for me, I didn't like the punk rock, the lead guitar, electric guitar remix of it. I wasn't that wild about that. Because in the first trailer, when it was deployed, I was like, oh, I'm not sure I liked that. Maybe it worked for me in the film. Didn't really work for me in the film. I like my Superman brassy. Yeah. I mean, you do, I think you get a nice mix of the triumphant brass trumpets and the metal electric guitar.

47:56I think John Murphy and David Fleming did a pretty good job. John Murphy has worked with James Gunn a couple of times now on Guardians 3 and The Suicide Squad. And David Fleming, his most recent club, that was actually working with Gustavo on Last of Us Season 2, which we still need to talk about, by the way. But yeah, I thought the score was fun. Really, really enjoyable. I hear what you're saying about they're not taking the John Williams score all the way, but I like that they're taking part of the leitmotif and then stretching it. No, I get that. And to a degree, I admire the restraint and the refusal to, as you say, lean on nostalgia.

48:36But at the same time, I was wildly frustrated by it. Did you feel edged? Yes, it's exactly the word I used. Because they go, but they really go, they don't give you that part. Yeah, just, oh. I always find this, I am sensitive to that. I always find it very frustrating watching, I don't know, Strictly Come Dancing or something where they shorten a song and so you're ready to sing that next verse or the bridge and then they don't do it. And I find that incredibly frustrating too. This felt like that. This goes all the way back to you hating Shallows because of this very reason, right? There needs to be a second verse.

49:17Here we go. Jesus. Anyway, let's move on.

49:20Chris Hewitt:Who is the second verse? He sings it first, she sings it first. It's not how it works. Hey, we should talk about Bradley. We should talk about Bradley. Brady Copper as someone once said that's not about the Cooper and let's talk about the nature versus nurture element of this movie and that interesting twist yeah fucking hell yeah fucking hell Superman's Yorkshire cousin you know that Jor-El and Lara his parents have actually bright burned the fuck out of him and they've sent him to this planet and to make Brightburn 2. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. Me too. For the entire film. Even when Mr.

50:04Twific said, it's authentic, I was like, no way, Luther has doctored the footage somehow. Well, he only said the footage was authentic. He wasn't in a position to authenticate the translation.

50:13Chris Hewitt:But 29 linguistic professors, 28. But that also, so what I thought was, especially when we saw Supergirl at the end, I thought, well, she's going to say, that's a pile of shit. Here's what it actually says. And I suspect, actually, that that might have been an option somewhere along the line. Because I think if you listen to the message, a lot of the translation could be translated in a slightly different way to get you quite close to Marlon Brando's speech or that message. So, you know, the sort of the thing about them being kind of stupid and weak could just be the bit about they will be weaker than you are, you'll be stronger than they are.

50:51But that's it doesn't have to be pejorative. it can just be descriptive right? But you're relative the sort of thing about you know you should reproduce that or you should rule them could be you should lead them

51:04Chris Hewitt:be the light that shows them the way a lot of it could with a very small tweak actually translate back into the sort of standard Dorel advice. I don't think but I think he made a conscious decision at some point whether before or after writing the script to not do that and to go, well, it doesn't really matter what they wanted for him. What matters is who he is himself. And that is a thing that you can only get from the in-media res opening. Because if we got, if we got more traditional with this, then we know the Superman story. We know Jor-El and Lara sent him to be good and everything else.

51:42If the coming at it, coming at the story this way gives us the opportunity to get this twist and to have it to shake his world up.

51:50Chris Hewitt:I would say two things.

51:54Ben Travis:One for the immediate res. I think there's two sides to the immediate res. We didn't need another Superman Origins dragon. I quite enjoy them. I've got to be honest with you. I like the dragons in Man of Steel. We don't need... Oh, when Russell Crowe jumps onto a dragon in Man of Steel and flies off. Who doesn't love a dragon, Chris? It's the best thing. Who doesn't love a dragon? That was quite fun. I will admit that. However, if Bruce Wayne's parents walk into another fucking alley, we won't. Helen will be there with the gun. You're right. We have 100%. What happens when they go into the alley?

52:20Ben Travis:I just... We've 100 % seen enough of that. But my issue with the media res was there's cutting that off and then there's sticking us in the middle of this slightly convoluted story. And then this, and there's gods and monsters and the era of this. And there's two countries you've never heard of. And you're like, oh my God, I'm 30 seconds into this film. I've got a fucking migraine. What are you thinking about? That's complicated. Yeah, I mean, there's two countries you've never heard of, but from the avia and the poor, you kind of know where in the world they both are meant to be. Oh, the cultural stereotypes were alive and well, yes.

52:47Ben Travis:Also, we should... Like that real world stuff, baseball i thought the tone of this film didn't see that to when it made me feel very very icky but that's neither here nor there i like the idea that his parents are twats i thought actually this is an interesting wrinkle and like it is yeah it's a psychologist user and um i like that idea that he's wrestling exactly with that idea who they intended him to be his whole identity seems to have been based on this template of who he thought they wanted him to be and then he's forced to make the decision that he's actually his own person the thing that didn't ring true to me and I thought was one of the many fucking stupid things in this film was the idea that because his parents are dicks, the whole world suddenly turns on this guy who has been routinely saving them on a daily basis.

53:31Ben Travis:You don't think that people... I know, it's very Twitter. It's very Twitter. I get it. Superman gets milkshake ducked in this movie. Hashtag super shit. Hashtag super shit, indeed. And yes, a lot of it is down to Lex's monkeys, I'm sure. Enough about James' review of the film. Genuinely, I was one of those monkeys. It's true. I didn't like that at all I found that quite annoying but then I think that again comes down to what is the role of Superman in this world what is James Gunn doing to synthesize the things that aren't great about our world at the moment and synthesize them into a DC world so part of that is general like culture warship and that everybody is so divided and at each other's throats all the time and easily manipulated by random bullshit to tear ourselves apart and then to have a figure like Superman in the middle of it all who is caught up in that storm.

54:31But yeah, Lex basically tries to cancel Superman, which is a probably very modern thing to do with a Superman movie. Almost to the point where he doesn't need to kill him. Yes. He not only turns people against Superman, but fucks Superman himself up by revealing that information. And I think, to be honest, that is quite a true representation of the world. There is a mob mentality. There is so much divisive rhetoric at the moment, and people can be swayed in such huge ways by, let's be honest, people with access to big tech and platforms and hundreds of monkeys on hundreds of typewriters spewing random bullshit out there.

55:18Ben Travis:But he does act like he has absolutely no idea how to deal with this revelation. He's a professional fucking journalist. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you have a platform, do a fucking interview. Like, it feels like all of this was relatively easy to contain. No, but it's not just his public reputation. It's also his personal belief in who and what he is. That's the bit that fucks him up. Without a doubt. Then ultimately, what we have is a film that is not an origin story, but that still is like your first film with this Superman where he is deciding who I am going to be as Superman, I think that's really smart because you cut all the stuff that you've seen before while still telling a story about like, okay, who is Superman?

55:53And you also move away from any kind of destiny stuff. Like he is destined to inspire us. No, he is choosing actively to go out there every day and try to inspire us. And that's something, again, comes back to the resilience thing, the getting up every time he's knocked down thing. He is choosing every single time to try and do the right thing. Yeah, it's the most human Superman we've had on the big screen.

56:14Chris Hewitt:It's becoming increasingly clear that he should just knock the Clark stuff on the head and just be Superman 24-7. I disagree. I think Clark's important to him. Well, he is Clark. He is Clark. But that life, I mean, when he's asleep, crime is happening. When he's at the Daily Planet doing his job, crime is happening. He should just stop crime. I don't think he sleeps a huge time. I'd rather have Superman stopping crime than read another one of those dreadful Clark Kent Pant editorial pieces.

56:45Ben Travis:That's fair, but I like the fact that this wasn't Superman, the low-level crime fighter. Leave that shit to Daredevil, do you know what I mean? Different universe. But I like the fact that he's stopping wars. He's doing stuff that matters, because he's the fucking humanoid weapon of mass destruction. It is not his job to stop muggers. It is his job to stop invasions. It's his job to catch falling buildings. Right, 100%. Use your fucking skill set. Because I really like the sort of second big Lois and Clark or Superman scene where then the Justice Gang just in the background is fighting the big wiggly monster thing.

57:21And I love that because there was a sense of like, those guys have got that handled in a very amusing way in the background that Superman, because he's not the only superhero in this world, he doesn't have to both be doing street level stuff or playing absolutely everything. He can take a little bit of a break. I think, again, not to harp on this too much, but this is a benefit of the in-media res of the world. If people are doing a drinking game at home,

57:49Chris Hewitt:if you take a shot every time someone says in-media res in this podcast, then I'm sorry, my condolences to your family. When you edit this podcast... Only half a shot though, because you'd have already drunk some of it.

58:06but i feel like and this is just my headcanon given the way that the scene plays out but because this is a world full of superheroes because the the impression that i get is that they've handled stuff like that before and it's so low level that it doesn't need here it's literally it may look big but it clearly does not have a lot of substance or ability to damage people I think is what he's saying in that moment I actually do agree he probably would go out there and help them if he wasn't having a personal crisis also comedy but the comedy of the moment is undeniable Guy Gardner just whacking it with a pink green baseball bat from several angles

58:46Ben Travis:really made me chuckle I really I thought a lot of people were wasted in this film as I'm sure you understand but Nathan Fillion was not among them. And I enjoyed most of his scenes. Nor was Eddie Gattagy. Yes. I didn't think he'd be good. And I was not excited to see Mr. Terrific. I have no basis of love for that character to start from. I was just like, oh, he's a person who exists. But he was great. He's fantastic. It's an interesting decision though, isn't it? Because he's leaned into the, let's be honest, the goofier aspects of DC. Because DC does have a very goofy side. It's no surprise because it's James Gunn.

59:21Ben Travis:Yeah, that's what he does. But it's an interesting thing to have, like, Crypto in there, to have Mr. Terrific, and to... I mean, and to be fair, he does poke fun at it. Like, they are aware. There's a little bit of lampshading in there as well. We know it's a fucking stupid name. We're leaning into that. It's fine. Yeah, I didn't like it, but I admired the... You didn't like Mr. Terrific? No, I mean, the film and really all the aspects of it. But I enjoyed... Do you know what? That scene, the action sequence with Mr. Terrific, when he's going there, hands down the best action sequence in the film.

59:49I actually love the kaiju scene for Superman's action.

59:51Ben Travis:I really didn't. I like the heathen. I've seen that shit too many times. Yeah, but it was the fact that he was... Have you seen Superman Battle of Kaiju? I've never seen that before. And also, again, what he was doing during that scene was interesting. Like, he's holding up the kaiju to save a freaking dog. A really annoying dog at that. He wasn't even crypto. Then later, he saves a squirrel as well as saving a little girl. After having broken a dog's back with his super breath. Yeah, by blowing it into a tree. The dog gets up and walks away. Of course he does. to get up and walk. My God. Also then, the good character stuff of him being like, we should escort this thing away.

1:00:25We should just take this somewhere else when the Justice Gang is in it. Exactly. And also, like, you know, when he stops it from falling on that building and then immediately turns around and checks the people inside are okay and reassures them. This is all, like, classic Superman stuff. This is stuff that other people don't do. And this is what I mean when it says it gets the important stuff right. Because more than Justice Saving Lives, I want to feel, when Superman is on the scene, I want to feel reassured I want to know in my heart that everything is going to be okay and I get that feeling when I watch the Superman which is really great the terrific scene that felt very Yondu coded for me it's just T-Spears instead of the Yak-A-A it's a lot of fun and also even the what's the song that's in that scene?

1:01:09it's Five Years Time by Noah and the Whale of course you know that James Gunn and Lose an incongruous needle drop and even though he said going into this like this is a score movie, it's not a song movie. He still had to get a soundtrack moment in there.

1:01:24Chris Hewitt:Yeah, there's a couple of needle drops. There's the song that finishes the movie where Superman is finally embracing his adoptive parents, which I thought was a really, really lovely end to the film. And that final shot of his face bathed in the glow of Earth's yellow sun as his parents in a succession of increasingly bad wigs. they were at twilight level that was not good you know Ray's Clark through the years but that song that sequence that was terrific I think if there is a member of the Justice Gang who has not come out of this movie well served it is Isabella Merced as Hawk Girl I would agree did she have more scenes was she horribly mauled in the edit what happened I suspect there is a much longer version of this movie some characters who were given their own posters are barely given anything to do.

1:02:18Chris Hewitt:Beck Bennett is barely given anything to do in this movie. The Cat Grants we mentioned earlier on. There's a guy who shows up in the spaceship with Lois, one of the Daily Planet guys, who is in that scene. I don't know his name. I noticed this second time that you pointed it out. Because I pointed it out, yeah. Yeah, 100%. What's going on? But then, at the same time, isn't this part of the thing of like, we are, not all of these characters are mega important characters, but there will be multiple reporters working for the Daily Planet. this is part of just the fabric of his Clark Kent life. That this, to me, is why the world feels lived in.

1:02:52That there are all these random reporters, and yes, they would be along for the ride, but that doesn't mean they have to have a bunch of scenes. But I suspect there were a bunch of scenes. It does mean they need to press multiple buttons to publish a story in the... That is true. Every time we publish an article, myself, James, Harry, our social media editor, we all gather around one computer. Ideally in a spaceship. We're talking about the big picture stuff this film gets right. For this film, as many directions as it moves in, for that plot to all completely tie into the Lex Luthor-ness, whilst also then giving Superman real Superman-y stuff to do, but also have a big part of the final act come down to the journalists have to publish an article reporting on the Lex Luthor stuff, and that is what brings him down.

1:03:39That just feels correct to me. That's another big thing about this world. that like to serve Superman, to serve Lex Luthor, to serve the Daily Planet storyline and how important it is that Clark and Lois are journalists, to get all of that into this film that also has a baby Joey and pocket universes and Mr. Terrific with his fucking like battle orbs. T-Sphere. T-Sphere, sorry. Not two-dimensional, not cycles. And a crypto the super dog and to have all of that in this film but get the fundamentals right, I think is so impressive. Yeah, that would have been fabulous. I will say on the whole girl of it all, one of the things that I didn't like, I know that she literally says she's not Superman, but for a film which has such an emphasis on saving lives, her killing the dictator and then that not being followed up on in any way, that did not drive with me.

1:04:39Ben Travis:You have a very particular hang-up about this stuff. Sue me I like to see Hela saving people and not killing people but also you know and he's the reverse I'm the reverse I'm just like Helen I'm just about practicality you kill motherfuckers they don't come back but you know I liked I liked that she differentiated herself and I think also that kind of thing really underscores Superman's humanity and his absolute morality that because not everyone is him and they shouldn't be if everyone has his same morality then his morality is meaningless so I think actually it's useful to have Hawke girl be a little bit edgy and a little bit murdery.

1:05:14Chris Hewitt:She should have shoved the cactus up his arse and let that be the end of it. And speaking of the end of it, that is the end of it because we are rapidly running out of time. We may come back and do a second part which we will append to this or we may do another show down the line, maybe take some listener questions and maybe we'll come out packaged with the James Gunn interview. But as it is, that is it for this quick fire. So many things to talk about. Eve. Barely touched on Lex and Eve. Jimmy Olsen. and Eve Lex The Pocket Universe Pocket Universe Skylar Gisondo's Jimmy Olsen Oh my god Metamorpho Love him so much Lady Killer Jimmy Olsen Lady Killer Jimmy Olsen Baby Joey Baby Joey So many things So many things to talk about James' hatred of everything and everyone All of it to be discussed at another date But in the meantime thank you so much to my four colleagues of such lethal cunning Have we ever done a five-person pod before?

1:06:13I think we have. Have we? I think we did.

1:06:16Chris Hewitt:That's amazing. Go us. Look at that. Go look at us with our five mics. It's goodbye from them. It's goodbye from Amon Warman. Peace. It's goodbye from Ben Travis. Goodbye. It's goodbye from the Hammer of Baravian.

1:06:32Ben Travis:James Dyer. I have enjoyed listening to your incredibly articulate, well-reasoned, and categorically wrong arguments. Thank you very much. we haven't argued with him and how have you much

1:06:41Chris Hewitt:it's goodbye from Helen O 'Hara diddly and it's goodbye from me I am off to do an interview with myself is that ethical? would Lewis Lane really go along with that? no she wouldn't I'm taking her down taking her downtown Chris when you set this episode live do you need me and James to come to press the big button? yes we need to press the big button together? on three okay should we do it now? one two three there we go published. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.