The Fantastic Four: First Steps ft. Matt Shakman

21:40Sue is very emotionally engaged and able to articulate that far better than he is. But I think that doesn't mean it's not there for him. and I wanted that emotionality to be something that was important to the character that would come out towards the end of the movie. You know, he is someone who deeply, deeply loves his family and deeply loves his wife and deeply loves his child. And I think that's so endearing as a part of his character and that is in the comics. Like he does love his family. But he's great for all mankind but struggles with individual men. You know, he's tough at a cocktail party, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't love his family unbelievably, right?

22:25And they complete each other in that way. Like, that's why Sue is a diplomat. She is great with every individual person. She can handle those, and she can handle the big global problems. She is incredible at navigating the thorniness of human experience, and he is incredible at navigating the trickiness of science, right? And it's like how they come together is the way that Kirk and Spock work so well together. It's that same idea. Sue is very forward-footed and instinctive and able to take risks. And Reed is almost locked up, Hamlet-like, in paralysis sometimes, thinking through every possible way through it.

23:05And so, yeah, he does. He thinks about the worst case and, and the worst case ends up becoming something they have to do together as parents, right. Which is to put their child at risk. And so that scene, which we often call the marriage story sort of fight, because I wanted also, I love that movie, Marriage Story and, and the rawness of it and the reality of that. And I say, how do we get that part of marriage into our film? And how the idea of opposites attract, everyone is – that's really a charming thing to fall in love with someone who's so different from you. And then that becomes a huge challenge when you have a common goal like raising a child together.

23:47And you're like, but you think about everything completely different than I do. How is this going to work? And that's what marriage is about. And you negotiate and you do all of this. And they are so different, but they are so complete as a unit. And it was about seeing the low point of that and the vulnerability of that so that by the time we do get to the scene later in the lab where Reed explains the plan and Sue realizes the implication of the plan that it's going to involve Franklin, that she's not happy about it, but she understands it and she eventually comes around to it. and that's just a part of their story as a couple, you know, from this idea of nothing's going to change at the beginning of the movie to, you know, everything's going to change, you know, and ultimately that's what parenthood is.

24:32Parenthood is change every day. Change is a part of parenthood. You're signing up to watch this little creature learn about the world and change and, you know, trip and fall and get cuts and scrapes and you will protect that child to the best of your abilities, but ultimately their future is up to them. And you have to accept that. And no matter if you're a normal person like us or if you're a superhero, you know, who has super abilities, you all have to come to the conclusion that ultimately what's going to happen to Franklin is going to be up to Franklin, you know, and nobody's going to be able to define that.

25:04Not Galactus, who says one thing about what Franklin is, to what they think Franklin is. Franklin will ultimately write his own future.

25:10Chris Hewitt:Absolutely. And what Franklin is, I mean, in the comics is one thing and in the movies in this movie you know he is clearly a very very powerful entity what sort of discussions did you have about franklin's power levels and his awareness of that as a character how where is he what he is despite the fact he's just a baby because at the end when sue dies he seems to be very aware in that moment of everything that's going on i think it may be you know from my years of watching Disney movies, but, you know, there's something about, you know, great grief being a trigger for great power, you know, and I think it might literally be in my mind, I think it is, we don't directly say it, but I think the death of Sue is probably the trigger that releases Franklin's power.

26:07It's not there when Reed scans it. It's, you know, Franklin's not levitating stuff in the background or doing anything impressive. He's just a baby. And Galactus recognizes something in him. It's there in a way that some incredibly powerful creature like Galactus might be able to see. But I don't think it's fully released until that moment of great grief. And so, Franklin sees his mother dead on the ground. You feel the grief in Franklin that, you know, Franklin is reaching for his mother and fighting to get to his mother because, you know, that's unlocking something in him. Franklin in the comics is incredibly powerful, you know, an omega level mutant who can create his own realities.

26:53There's whole, you know, almost kind of scarily perverse sections of the comics where like he's so powerful. Reed has to put him in a coma, you know, and things like that, which we chose not to dramatize. But, you know, there's a version of Franklin that's the little kid in Twilight Zone who sends people to the cornfield, right? He's, you know, he's so powerful that you don't know which way he's going to tip, right? And that's kind of what Galactus is saying is like, come on over to the dark side, young Skywalker, you know, I will take your power. Will you be an Anakin or a Luke? Where will you go, Franklin Richards, is part of it.

27:34But also the idea that he can write his own future. And I think that's what's beautiful about Franklin in the comics. There's a great history of the Marvel Universe that Mark Waid wrote that is basically just kind of a recap, like a clip show from the old sitcoms where they kind of give you everything of the Marvel 616 universe. And the idea is that the universe is ending and a new one will be born. But the framing device for it is Galactus and Franklin having a chat at the end of the universe, right? And it's this notion that they're almost like some, you know, like Hindu gods that, you know, the beginner and, you know, the creator and the destroyer, like in a way, right?

28:11That Galactus consumes and eats and Franklin creates.

28:16Chris Hewitt:the idea that Franklin is this incredibly powerful being I know you won't be able to comment on what might happen in Avengers Doomsday but the mid-credits scene where a certain doctor shows up would seem to indicate that Franklin is of great interest to a great many people in the multiverse shall we say which brings us to Doom and the notion of Doom in this movie you have the little tease with the Latverian seats in the United Nations being empty but what sort of conversations did you have about implementing Doom into this story for example is Doom known to Reed and Sue and the FF in this film he is and that's why we put those references to Latveria in there which we wanted to nod to the idea that there is a Latveria Yeah, there is a Dr.

29:12Doom. He's absent from these United Nations style proceedings. He's not playing with Sue in her goal of bringing the world together. So clearly he's there. We wanted to nod to that idea for the fans and folks who were wondering where Doom was. He's there. But we also didn't want to involve him in our plot because he wasn't our villain. And Doom's a great character. And as I've said before, he definitely takes up a lot of space. And we were trying to establish who this family was, to introduce Franklin, to introduce how a baby changes a family. And all the other FF films have had Doom as their central villain.

29:51And it just sort of felt like, let's just chart our own path where Doom is a part of this world and he's coming and everyone will definitely have a great time when he arrives because he is a wonderful character. But in terms of what we needed to serve in this movie, I mean, heaven knows John Nokovic was in it and then cut from it. Like there was a lot to set up in this world, a lot of character dynamics to establish, world to build, because we weren't just in our world. We're in this whole other universe, this whole other retro future 60s. I mean, the task was enormous. And then we go to space.

30:25You have to establish this giant god villain that's been around. There was a lot from a narrative standpoint. And the idea of, well, let's also bring in the most famous supervillain from the FF and trying to figure out how he should be involved in this, it felt like an unnecessarily complicated task. But yes, he is known to them. Doom, of course, has great history with Reed and with all of them. And he has a strange relationship with children in the FF, you know, I mean, more with Valeria, who's a great character, their daughter Valeria, who he basically helps bring into the world. and becomes her godfather, Uncle Doom.

31:04They have a very tight relationship. And I absolutely love how really Doom's only vulnerability is his love for Valeria. It's kind of a great storyline of the comics is how connected he is. He has his own love for his mother who died tragically and who he desperately wants back. And I think there's even a comic issue where he fights the devil every year for her to try to bring her back from hell. Like, Doom has these wonderful vulnerabilities around family, which makes him connected to what the FF is all about. But of course, he's undone by his own, you know, narcissism and ambition and power, which makes him the sort of opposite of Reed.

31:48If Reed is constantly trying to remember that he has things that he loves, so he will leave his lab and stop trying to solve everything and realize that the end result of solving everything is losing your family, Doom is the other end of that spectrum where he will follow ambition and science to great loneliness.

32:13Chris Hewitt:Yeah, because it's just interesting because, you know, I was wondering if at one point you had, whenever Galactus is such a problem for Earth, whether you had a mention of Doom at some point as a scientific brain who's equal to Reed, whether Reed would have reached out to Doom or whether that was something where Doom might have gotten involved in terms of his ego. Well, this is a great problem for me to solve because I am Doom and I can do that. But I can understand it would be a lot to fit in as well. yeah it's an interesting question and yes we did we did consider something like that we didn't you know we we considered you know something like that uh a few times but ultimately for the reasons i've enumerated we we avoided that but you know hey avengers is coming uh you know i don't know the nitty-gritty of it but but you know if galactus seemed like a big problem there's there's bigger ones to come and uh other reasons to to reach out i want to talk very quickly about Johnny and Johnny's role in this movie because he is really, really fascinating because he's not just the hothead that we are used to.

33:18Chris Hewitt:This dude's got smarts and he makes that connection with the Silver Surfer and also is prepared twice to make the ultimate sacrifice. He offers himself up as a potential herald for Galactus and he's prepared to push Galactus into the portal and end up God knows where millions of light years away. So there's a really, really fascinating aspect of him in this movie. There's a lot there to talk about. There is. I mean, Johnny's a great character, you know, and I think he sometimes gets reduced to this, you know, kind of flashy celebrity girl loving guy. And that's part of, you know, Joe Quinn's version of Johnny, too, is, you know, he likes the ladies and all of that.

33:57And I think part of it is that he was a little bit unformed when he became the Human Torch. He was a young guy who hadn't quite figured out his path in life or what he was going to do. And he had this major change happen. And he probably much like I was a child actor, having that kind of fame earlier, like, oh, my God, who am I? What am I doing? How can I be fit into this world? And I think I maybe drew a little bit on that. But so he's a little bit unmoored. And I think he's enjoyed that part of his rock star life. But he's looking for something more. And I was drawing a lot from a run, which I really like, where Johnny is sort of unsatisfied and he can't seem to find the right people to date.

34:38And he meets Frankie Ray, this other human torch. And he's like, oh, my God, I found somebody like me. We can fly around, you know, and she's so exotic to him. And she actually doesn't really she doesn't really dig him that much. And then when Galactus shows up, she volunteers to be his herald and peaces out and becomes Nova. And so that is, you know, was a little bit like this idea of like seeing the silver surfer. Here's this guy who yearns to adventure and travel in space when Reed has become so afraid of space because of the PTSD of their of their horror, their transformation, what happened to them.

35:13And Johnny's like, but let's go back. Let's go back. I want to go back. I want to explore. And then he meets this woman who can fly space without a suit and who is so and does all the things that he wants to do. And so that was part of that connection and why having Shalabal was so interesting to me for the movie at large. And yeah, this idea of sacrificing. She was willing to do it. Johnny's willing to do it. If it saves his family and saves his world, he's willing to do it. and that gave him some much needed depth, I think, at least in the way our story was going to work.

35:46Chris Hewitt:And then Sue makes the ultimate sacrifice. Can you talk very quickly about that and making that choice? Yeah. I mean, she's a phenomenal character. Vanessa did such an incredible job with her, but this notion of the last full measure of the mom lifting the car off the child was something I was thinking about a lot and I was thinking about what a superhero mom would have to do. If a normal mom could lift a car off a baby, what does a superhero have to do? Well, she can throw a giant space monster through a portal, you know. But just this idea that we were building towards a revelation of Franklin's powers that sometimes had happened at the end of the second act, that Sue was going to die and be reborn at the end of the second act.

36:34And then there would be a third act fight after that. But we ended up moving that sort of to the end and figuring out a way for all of them to be involved in this and have the plan go wrong several times as you want it to in most movies. But to kind of ultimately get to this point where, you know, here's this incredible character who we've seen give birth. You know, it's a movie about birth and death and about how connected they are and see her when she's giving birth, you know, losing control of her visibility. And we see that again as she's fighting to push Galactus through, that there's this visual connection between birth and death and how difficult both of those moments are.

37:15And this idea of love and how far you would go for the – I certainly would do it for my child, and I know everyone out there would do it for theirs and what that ultimate sacrifice would be. and then the idea that that same love would kind of bring you back. Yeah, it's absolutely brutal.

37:36Chris Hewitt:I mean, just watching Reed, I watched it again last night, and watching Reed perform CPR on her was, I mean, you push that to the brink in terms of, you know, the audience might be hoping that Franklin brings her back, but that's really quite stark emotionally. It was also very hard to get right. You know, it was amazing when we filmed it, you know, Pedro gave it his all every take. So beautiful. I mean, there's one shot in the movie, which I couldn't believe it when I saw it when we filmed it. But, you know, he kisses her goodbye when he finally accepts her death. This one tear drops on her cheek.

38:15And it's heartbreaking and such beautiful acting. But it was this balance of music and sound design. because, you know, for a while, you know, we were playing that the resurrection was happening. We were playing the beauty too early. You know, we realized it finally just ended up getting completely quiet, you know, and that we were saving it until, you know, the one sound of her glove when her finger moves, you know, and it felt like because there was a sense of like, oh, people kind of know she's going to come back. You know, we everyone else she's been announced as the cast in Avengers Tuesday.

38:50She's not dead. You know, there's that thing you always fight in these in a Disney movie when you're going to have a miracle happen that people kind of know it's going to happen. How do you keep it surprising but inevitable? And and so much of that came down to just making sure nothing gave it away so that you would be hopefully held within that moment of suspense for as long as possible.

39:11Chris Hewitt:It's it's incredibly stark. No pun intended. No reference to Tony intended. Matt I do have a little to go but I just wanted to ask real quick because I haven't talked about Ben yet we talked about everyone else we haven't talked about Ben and in terms of the four is there a sense from you that Ben was the hardest nut to crack in terms of integrating him into the story there's a love interest with Rachel which you know is maybe left a little bit open ended at the end of the movie was that something that was hard for you to resolve with him And probably because that love story, you know, which is really just the beginning of something, it's really just a very, it's a very small gesture, right?

39:55Which he meets someone interesting. He tries to get the courage up to talk to her more, doesn't, and then by the end of the movie does. And that's it's small, but it's it is a big thing for him because he, you know, he's at war with, you know, how comfortable he is with himself. Right. And that's a classic trope in, you know, is that he's a bit bummed about this. You know, what's happened to him? He can't turn his powers off. He's the only one who can't just revert to his natural form. And he's haunted by that. But at the same time, I wanted to find a way to make Ben more than a sad sack, which he often is in the comics, you know, is to find a way to have that be under the surface, you know, that he'll look at himself reflected in the window on Yancy Street, see himself handsome before, see what he looks like now in his reflection, and be haunted by that and lose his courage.

40:48But then in the very next scene, he's telling Reed it's fine to not worry about it, to joke it away, you know, to kind of laugh it away. That's Ben to me. Like he's he's a huge part of this family. Evan's performance is amazing. He's the toughest guy on the outside, but the softest guy on the inside. He's the person you would trust, as Sue does, to deliver the baby. You know, they're both calling out, Ben, come here. You know, Ben's in there delivering the baby. He's the one. Johnny wouldn't be there. Johnny would be completely grossed out. Like he's a rock. He literally is. You know, there's a line that we filmed that made it into an early trailer, but didn't make it into the into the movie, which is, you know, Sue says Ben's always been a rock.

41:27You know, that notion of like, that's who he is. You know, he's the kind of he's the only honorary family member. But boy, is he the center of that family in a way. He's the glue that kind of holds them together. He's beloved by all from Herbie to Johnny to Sue to Reed. Like he's essential to that family. So to tell his story required telling his story a little bit outside of the core story, right? And outside of the family because it was his secret of how he was feeling. So we only had a little bit of landscape to work with. And so anything that we did felt sort of too much like its own separate adventure.

42:13and again you know maybe you know in a sequel one could spend a lot more time on that but we had so much to set up in this movie that it was really just a kind of a glimpse into the sort of subtext and undercurrents of this wonderful character so that there's room to build on it as as we go

42:31Chris Hewitt:forward absolutely looking forward to a second steps and see what you might do uh down the line matt i'm gonna let you go uh it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you so much to talk about Jack and Stan's cameo all that sort of stuff but hopefully another time or should I say another timely yeah another timely comics yeah exactly well thank you Chris appreciate it amazing it's been a pleasure thanks Matt Shackman thank you have a good one bye alright that was Matt Shackman director of the Fantastic Four first steps before we get into our listener questions is there anything have you seen the movie again since it came out have you thought more about the movie has it gone up or down in your estimation where do you stand on it now and do you like the mole man those are important questions I did see it again and I took the husband who missed the the husband the husband yeah that sound you can hear is a thousand geek hearts breaking I think they'll be okay and yeah really enjoyed it again honestly I just quite liked it I have to say I haven't maybe thought about it too much between screenings yeah But I found it a really fun summer blockbuster.

43:43Again.

43:44Chris Hewitt:Take that! What about you, Amon? I have not seen it again, but I've thought a lot about it. What have you been doing? Stuff. I've thought about it a lot since then, especially in preparation for this. I think, I can't remember exactly where I stood on the immediate reaction, but I know that I enjoyed it. I'm still kind of around the high three star point for me. It's a really fun blockbuster. It does so many things well. But I remember coming out of that screening and enjoying it but feeling like there was something holding me back from full on loving it. And it was a little bit hard in the moment to sort of identify what exactly that was.

44:29Chris Hewitt:In thinking about it some more I think I've landed on two things. One it resolves its best, most intriguing, most tension-filled plot point far too quickly. And then I guess that's... Which is the people of Earth are mad at the Phantastophore's decision to not sacrifice their baby for the planet. You're saying it should have gone full Wicker Man? I'm not saying that. I'm saying we should have lived in that tension for longer and that the one speech to make everything okay again was just like a very easy resolution to really interesting trolley problem. I don't know that you could have really portrayed that realistically because that realistically ends with the people of Earth ransacking the Baxter building and breaking in and ripping the Fantastic Four limb from limb and taking their baby and then going, what do we do with this baby?

45:30Chris Hewitt:How do we let Galactus know we've got the baby? We're going to give you the baby, Galactus, but we've no way of telling him. I'm not saying we go... We have not thought this through. Also, what's to stop him taking the baby and also eating the planet? I just, you know... I would take the baby, eat the planet. but he's a reasonable guy is Galactus I'm not saying we go fully in that direction but an element of what you just said might have been interesting to give the movie more tension but don't you have that element when the mob is literally standing outside the building a little bit but I'm just saying the speech felt too need to resolution for that problem for me that's fair I think there's a moment where they're on the balcony of the Baxter building and they're looking down and I think as Johnny says they can't hurt us and I don't want to see normal folk trying to break into the Baxter building and trying to resolve this vigilante style because that would have ended badly for them but equally the Fantastic Four aren't going to wail on regular folk necessarily are they but the confidence that Johnny had there I was like well how well placed is that confidence if an army of 200 ,000 angry people will show up they're going to break into the backstab building no matter what sort of security measures you have but then will Sue just whack up a big old force field they wouldn't be able to get through it I don't know but it is interesting it's an interesting dilemma that the film does set up and I just don't think that it has the time to explore it properly well it doesn't have the time because of its own decisions in that regard I don't know in the first spoiler special I lamented that this is a sub two hour movie and anytime I see that a Marvel film has that running time I get worried because most if not all the time it's not that way for artistic purposes it's that way because we don't want a movie that's longer than two hours so we're going to cut stuff that we like I mean I've seen so many interviews with Matt Shackman and with other members of the cast like oh why did they cut that why did they cut that because they wanted to have it under two hours this is essentially the answer rather than it being a bad thing that wouldn't have enhanced the story.

47:41Chris Hewitt:So I have issues with that. But that criticism that I mentioned feeds into, I guess, my large point, which is I think this movie is a bit too safe. You mentioned just a second ago that there's a more complicated resolution that they could have had if they stayed in that tension. There's so many different things with this film that are interesting that could lead to spiky, unpredictable discussions that we don't really investigate more. And one is the one I mentioned. Another one is this idea that Reed has basically baby-proofed his world, which is very, very intriguing, but given everything that he looks to have created with this world and people basically surrendering their arms for his technology, like there's an authoritarian megalomania thing to that read that we could investigate a little bit more the film doesn't really it's not really interesting in that and I get why because it doesn't want to I guess portray the Fantastic Four as bad in any way but there's just interesting stuff there that could be I disagree with that I don't want to see that Reed Richards I don't want to explore that Reed Richards there are hints of it as you say and we talked about last time but I think that you don't need you certainly don't go that in film number one that's like there's too much it's too much is it and it's also like it's a very it becomes a very different story in a very different film and you can't tell this story effectively if you also delve into that yeah perhaps i don't think i just i the the hints were so interesting that i wanted more follow-up on them and we didn't really get that and again i get why but it for me just meant that the potentially more interesting less safe movie was not what we got.

49:39Chris Hewitt:And I do feel like this movie overall, I enjoyed it, I had fun, it is a little bit safe in the end for me. All right. A controversial viewpoint from Amon Woman, but it is interesting because... Never. Well, you know, once in a while it's nice, isn't it? But it is interesting, before we get into the listener questions, to talk about how the movie's been received and how it's done at the box office in a very, very strange summer where pretty much everything has struggled to connect with audiences to the extent that things used to. And that says to me that this is a very, very solid movie. I think it's been a pretty good year for Marvel by and large.

50:21Chris Hewitt:I know you're not a huge fan of Brave New World I'm on, but Thunderbolts I thought was terrific. I think this is very good. But it feels to me Marvel is now, the Marvel Studios is struggling to appeal to people outside the diehard fans. And the diehard fans are still showing up in numbers that will propel you to three, four, five hundred million just about. But for the real events, the real billion dollar blockbusters, they're fewer and far between than they were. Fewer and farther between than they were. So yeah, what's your take on that, guys? Maybe we're just back to, you know. Where it was?

50:59Chris Hewitt:Where it was. I mean, I think there was a moment where people were caught up in it and caught up in the story. And I think they were excited to see, first of all, a climax of a whole series of films like this that was coming in Infinity War and Endgame. Well, first of all, in the first Avengers movie and then eventually Infinity War and Endgame. I think there was a sense of getting caught up in the excitement following the first Avengers movie. and then you know with new characters like Black Panther they got everybody hyped but I think then seeing oh this is going to go on indefinitely I think a lot of people checked out I think there was a sense of we're building to something this is exciting I'm in it I'm really enjoying it oh my god I have to keep going forever and I think some people have noped out I definitely think there's an element of that the other element is there's been a lot of middling stuff that Marvel have put out and that is why the casuals have dropped out a little bit but I'm not too worried at this stage because the next two bullets that Marvel have in its cinematic chamber if you will are very very exciting and I don't foresee Spider-Man Brand New Day or Avengers Doomsday having these types of box office numbers.

52:30Chris Hewitt:I feel like... If they do, then that might be the end of the MCU. Even though we've been saying that it would outlive us all. But if Spider-Man Brand New Day made 500 million worldwide, people are getting fired. If Toomsday made 500 million worldwide, I'm getting fired. Never mind people who work at Marvel Studios. I don't see that happening. The last Spider-Man made a billion, and I know that part of that was the Tobey Maguire, Tobey Maguire, Andrew Garfield of it all. but Tom Holland is one of the most sort of likable biggest stars that we have and Spider-Man is part of when it comes to the general consensus superhero big three that's Batman, Superman and Spider-Man so I feel like that movie is going to be big Avengers Doomsday yeah but Superman didn't make a billion dollars this year yeah did the Batman?

53:18Chris Hewitt:did the Batman? I don't think so no but close wasn't far off okay yeah but I'm just saying I don't think anything is guaranteed anymore. I think the box office landscape has just become fragile. I think Superman, part of that was the newness of Superman. Yes, obviously he's a brand name, name quality, but that's a new character, that's a new world, especially after the way the previous situation was received. I think that played a part in it. With Spider-Man. Same with the Batman. But isn't that, if we're not getting excited by new things, but we're also not getting excited about things we've seen before.

53:56Chris Hewitt:Isn't that a problem? A little bit. It feels like we might be in a slightly problematic trend at the moment. Batman made 772 million worldwide. Do you think Spider-Man and Doomsday is going to... What numbers do you think they're going to do? I think they probably will do a billion. I mean, Leela and Stitch did a billion. So surely anyone can if Leela and Stitch... There's an inspirational cry there. But I do think we have a severe, I've talked about this ad nauseum, but I do think we have a severe problem right now, which is that people are just tired of what they're getting at the cinema. I think if they felt like they were getting more variety, then a Superman or a Spider-Man would also excite them.

54:41Chris Hewitt:I think the feeling they have, and I don't think this is right, I think there's some incredible films out there these days, but I think the feeling that people have is these are the only things we're getting and we've seen them already and I think that is a huge problem that Hollywood is utterly failing to reckon with because every time that an original film underperforms to any degree they go well look original films don't work we have to keep doing what we already know but that is also beginning to fail and that's a serious serious this is a crisis point and the industry seems to be just doing nothing about it.

55:14Chris Hewitt:We have, and I will genuinely stand by this, I think we have the most interesting, diverse, exciting crop of filmmakers that this world has ever seen right now. I think if you look at something like horror, where the budgets are still low enough for innovation to be embraced, you are seeing incredible films and incredible ideas coming through. You cannot tell me that can be done in no other genre. It is not unique to horror of filmmaking, but that's the only place that's being allowed to flourish. Horror in adjacent, you know, areas. And I just, I feel like, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

55:51Chris Hewitt:I feel like the whole of Hollywood is sleepwalking into its own death and I'm genuinely freaked out by it. It's, okay, let's have some listener questions now. Sorry. Try and get back. I'm sorry. I still love movies. I think that, I've said this before, I think that Marvel needs to cut its budget a little bit and needs to be more comfortable with the idea that something like a Fantastic Four is only going to make 500 million worldwide. And hey, this sequel might burst out beyond that in three or four years' time, especially off the back of Doomsday and Secret Wars and people might be going, oh my God, they might have fallen back in love with the MCU again.

56:31Chris Hewitt:This is the wider people. They're diehard fans. People who are listening to this right now I think we can categorize those people as the diehard fans. like ourselves. People who love these characters, who love these movies, and, you know, are, well, not rooting for them, but, you know, want them to succeed. They want them to be good. We're rooting for every movie, I think. Every movie. Every day is Christmas Eve, right? But what's happening is that there has been, for all the reasons we've just talked about, the bloom is coming off the rose a little bit, the air is being let out of the balloon a little bit, the mighty ship Marvel has been hold slightly under the waterline and it's taken on more water than I think they had anticipated.

57:12Chris Hewitt:But I think if you go back to the early on, the beginning of the summer, I was like, I think Fantastic Four might make$600 million. I was wrong about that. So, you know, it's been fascinating to see just the apathy that's out there towards these movies at the moment. And I think that will extend to Brand New Day. And I think it will extend to Doomsday. I think they will both make a billion dollars, but I don't think that Doomsday or Secret Wars is going to come anywhere near Infinity War or Endgame at the box office at the moment as things stand. I'm really intrigued to see how Avatar does at the end of this year, actually.

57:48Chris Hewitt:I'm exactly the same. I'm worried, and I hope it does brilliantly, but that's another worry. I just think there is a problem that people have been trained out of going to the cinema, and I think until people learn to re-embrace the cinema, we are all in for all films are in for a difficult time and all films are going to have to fight for a smaller and smaller piece of the pie and you know something like Fantastic Four I think Marvel maybe lost sight of the fact that just because the Fantastic Four are super important to Marvel history and to Marvel fans and are really embraced really a key part genuinely a very very key part of the comic book universe I think what they maybe overlooked is the fact that yes there is a generation now who grew up with the Tim Story movies and have some affection for them.

58:36Chris Hewitt:No one cared about the 2015 movie and no one has a huge amount of affection for these characters or had a huge amount of affection for these characters going into this movie. It wasn't pre-baked in. No, it wasn't. But I also think that I like this movie a lot. I do too. I saw it again the other night and it played better for me second time around. Some of the flaws that were there for me on first viewing went away in the second viewing, especially once I knew what was coming and especially what was about. The subtitle First Steps wasn't accidental. It is a film about parenthood. It's a film about coming to terms with being a parent.

59:14Chris Hewitt:It's a film about Franklin Richards as much as it is about any of the FF. All that stuff played much better for me a second time around. But despite that, I don't think it's a knock-out-of-the-park triumph in the way that Spider-Man Homecoming was. Back in the 2017 when, you know, They could do no wrong, Marvel Studios. And in Fiege, we trust. And Spider-Man had been a property that, the Raimi movies for the most part are brilliant, but then they'd had these two risible, amazing Spider-Man movies. And the property was in danger of becoming inert and just a bit of yesterday's Spider-Man. But we were like, oh no, now Marvel got it?

59:58Chris Hewitt:And don't worry. They're going to knock it out of the park. and Homecoming is an incredibly charming movie and those three Spider-Man movies are absolutely terrific. I don't think this is quite the triumph that Homecoming was. I don't think it's quite as sure-footed as Homecoming was. The interview I just did with Matt Shackman is really interesting in that they seem to be second-guessing themselves an awful lot. A lot of stuff was cut out of this movie. A lot of stuff was repurposed in this movie. And, you know, that's par for the course with a lot of Marvel movies, but I wonder if it does portray a lack of confidence ultimately in what they had.

1:00:30Chris Hewitt:whereas you know we were hoping for something that was absolutely sure of what it was and what it was going to be and in the end maybe it got maybe it fell between two stools a little bit maybe people detected that I don't know the marketing for this was always great very confident marketing and it just doesn't seem to have really crossed over anyway let's get some listener questions please God for the love of God so this one comes from Twitter I'm going to go all over Twitter Blue Sky and maybe even threads as well this one comes from John C6666666 yes hell satan do you think the filmmakers were concerned take them in the order I'm seeing them they hadn't got the visual demonstration of Reed's stretching powers to a point they would be believable on screen in close up in the film when he uses his powers it's as if the camera is positioned at least 10 meters away from where he is or he's in darkened environments so we can fully see him this is something we've talked about a lot we did talk about this a little bit that that power can look goofy or weird or just really disturbing I thought they did a pretty good job of that like we talked about in the first spoiler, I think what this film does really well is concentrating on their sort of secondary characteristics here, which I really liked because it felt less obvious and more interesting for them as people.

1:01:41Chris Hewitt:So yeah, I put it down more to that. But yeah, you could be right. I think it's just a hard power to make look attractive, is maybe the word, even if Pedro Pascal is the one doing it. It's getting better. It's better than it was in Ms. Marvel. And end sentence. It is. You don't think so? No, I agree. I think there's moments in this I think are absolutely terrific. And they're getting very close to the Reed Richards I had in my head when I was reading the comics growing up. You know, just this incredibly bendy, stretchy dude who can do all kinds of weird and fucking freaky things with his body.

1:02:20Chris Hewitt:There's a moment where Galactus grabs him and stretches him apart like a little bendy toy, which is amazing. I wonder Wendy I wonder how far you would have to stretch Reed before he snapped in half like a piece of elastic that's something that the previous films played with as well isn't it yeah but like to see to see Galactus actually grab him and go oh this is interesting oh okay fun toy how far does he go what does this bit do oh my god those bits are cool when he's fighting in that brief montage at the beginning the red ghost super apes and he swings round and he comes about and he does a flying kick those are cool there's a moment towards the end where we see him and I talked about this last time I don't want to dwell on it too much but there's a moment towards the end where it's a closer shot of him and it's a CG Pedro Pascal and it's not brilliant but you know he's not wearing a mask so it's harder to do it if he was wearing a mask then it'd be fine but unfortunately you know they have that face we all know what that face looks like because it's a great face Good face.

1:03:25Chris Hewitt:Great face. But yes, as someone pointed out, I saw something on Letterboxd where someone had put this materialist into a subcategory of films where Pedro Pascal lengthens his limbs. Spoiler. Spoiler for materialists there. Anywho, here's one from Chris Morfu. This isn't about the film necessarily. We'll have some more film-centric questions in a second. Just take them in the order that I'm seeing them. any thoughts on the current state of the MCU post F4 versus the state of the DCU post Superman Superman for me was such a confident balance of standalone storytelling and laying the groundwork for the future the kind of thing the MCU has struggled with lately Thunderbolts and first steps felt like a return to form but the whole thing feels a little bit unwieldy probably unfair to compare movie 1 with movie 37 but go for it I actually get the same sense of good heartedness from both of them, the same sense of optimism, the same kind of throwback feel, albeit in slightly different ways.

1:04:28Chris Hewitt:I think they have a lot in common. They do. And I really, really enjoyed both of them. I don't think it's a problem with the movies themselves. I think it's a problem with the environment they're in. It's why they struggle to connect necessarily as widely as we might have hoped or that their filmmakers might have hoped. And I think when people get around to them on tape, I think people are going to really enjoy both and probably turn out for the sequels if sequels be made. I genuinely think they're both really fun movies. So I think they will find their audiences, even if they haven't quite to the extent that they've hoped in cinemas.

1:05:04Chris Hewitt:I think they're both very colourful movies. I think they're both movies that are designed within their life. I mean, the production design in both of those films is absolutely exquisite. I mean, this is, I think, one of the best-looking Marvel movies. It's just beautiful to look at. You can pause pretty much any frame and you go, oh, that's just beautiful. Retrofuturism, yes, please. oh baby and you know both also you know have a lot in common they both start in media res they both dispense with the origin story they both you know basically go here you're right in the middle of this relationship but you're not really going to get to see what it is that made these two fall in love with each other but that you're going to go with it just trust me both have a guy who's a little bit displaced but just trying his best to do the right thing both have a lovable robot both have an evacuation scene both you know there's a lot of common ground between these two movies.

1:05:53Chris Hewitt:But in terms of this being movie one versus movie 37, I guess I think that there's a really palpable feeling of Feige and co writing the ship this summer. Brave New World, hey, I like it. I thought it was fine. I thought it was fine. But the thing is, you know, it's fine. And then you see Thunderbolts and it's like, oh, that's really good. That's a film that has a viewpoint. It has a directorial viewpoint. it hasn't been heavily rewritten re-shot, re-edited in a way that perhaps Brave New World was and this one also I think has a directorial sense of purpose and figure and like I say it looks great and it's also the most accessible Marvel movie in years I mean the one that you have to know nothing about anything else in order to enjoy this movie this is what I was going to say because part of the question was the balance between the story it's telling and future laying the groundwork, I think both of these films have that balance pretty well done.

1:06:55Chris Hewitt:In this film, we only get it really in the post-credit scene. And in Superman, it's the final scene with Supergirl. That's really all the future. So yeah, I think we've lamented in the past, the MCU especially, how many post-credit scenes are not going to get followed up on at this stage. if this feels more purposeful to what is coming than it has done in the past. So I think they got the best right. I don't know. That guy who shows up at the end with Franklin, I'm not sure we'll see him again. You think? You think he's a one and done? I think he's like a Harry Styles, Brett Goldstein style one and done.

1:07:36Chris Hewitt:Okay. Let's see if that pans out for you, Chris. That's a Hugh. Better believe it, buddy. There's one thing you bring up Mr. Doom. There's one thing we didn't... That's Doctor Doom to you. He didn't go to medical school for seven years to be called Mr. Doctor Doom. There's one thing we didn't mention in the first pod, which is that I believe Fantastic Four is the first time someone has labeled a set of powers the power cosmic. Yes, that's a good point. And obviously Franklin has that. Miss Marvel. Miss Marvel? Captain Marvel? has that. Well, in the comics she has that. I think she doesn't in this.

1:08:21Chris Hewitt:You don't think she doesn't in this? No. Interesting. I don't think the Paracosmic is the same as... I don't think if you get it from the Infinity Stone it's the same as being imbued with the Paracosmic. Okay. So who else in the MCU do you think has it? Because I was going to say Franklin, Captain Marvel. Yeah. I re-watched Shang-Chi recently. I think the Ten Rings, which, by the way, are emitting some sort of beacon, which I think is going to... They've forgotten about that as well. I wouldn't worry about that too much. And the century. I would say those are the... What about the Eternals? Maybe the Eternals.

1:08:54Chris Hewitt:Remember the Eternals. Hey, guys, we're over here. Oh, my gosh. Someone pointed out that Giganto, who is the giant creature that is fought on the cover of the very first Fantastic Four, and we see that replicated beautifully in this movie, that Giganto was created by the Deviants. And it was like, yeah, you should make a movie about the Eternals one day. it would be really really cool unfortunately as we all know the Eternals died on their way back to their home planet I don't know the Sentry has the power cosmic the power cosmic I think is something very very different in that it is something that you are imbued with I don't think it's something that you can get as a result of being experimented on necessarily but listen hey maybe it's something we'll be talking about but I don't think that when I think about Sentry I don't think about you think that could be a new infinity star I think these are beings that might be on Doctor Dooms Well, I was thinking about this the other day, so I watched it with my wife, Paula, who liked it a lot.

1:09:50Chris Hewitt:And we were walking back afterwards and we were talking about Doom and what he might be doing in Doomsday. And, you know, my theory that he's coming for Franklin and he's coming for Century as well. So you're seeing an overlap between Doomsday and Baby's Day out, basically, because I would totally watch that. Yes, Adventures in Babysitting, but with Doctor Doom. my feeling is that the Doomsday the Infinity Stones equivalent might be people and he's collecting people rather than Infinity Stones necessarily so he might be coming for Sentry he might be coming for someone else on an X-Men world who's got the power cosmic or whatever he might be coming for Galactus he might be coming for the Silver Surfer who I'm sure will be back at some point as well it's interesting but I wonder if that's where they're going with Doomsday and what he's up to that motherfucker one interesting thing that came out of my interview with Matt Shackman there were many interesting things of course is that he said that the Doom who shows up at the end of the movie is the Doom of that world and he is known to read and because we were talking about this on the previous one I was like well he can't have been because obviously when something like as big as Galactus comes up, then Reed would have gone, okay, bygones.

1:11:18Chris Hewitt:Let's put our heads together and start a new country up. Maybe it's more like, you know, the end of Dick Tracy and the enemy of my enemy is also my enemy. He's like, okay, yes, we're facing the extinction of everything, but Doom's still an untrustworthy motherfucker. He's such a dick. He is such a dick. Having said that, they did place a table for him at their international foundation event. So who knows? They did, but they're not going to like just leave an entire country are they? No, but you know if he's essentially the one spokesman for that country you can see them snubbing him a little bit.

1:11:50Chris Hewitt:I'm sure he is stropped off many many times he's just flounced off in a huff. Doom does not like this colour. Wow. Just send a Doom bot in this place. Yeah. He's always sending Doom bots in this place. He's always sending Doom bots. What an absolute prick. I thought it was interesting because my feeling was that you know if there was a Doom in this world that maybe he wasn't as on Reed Richards' radar as he seems that he might be. But for obvious reasons, I think that they couldn't incorporate Robert Downey Jr. into this movie. He may be known to Reed without having gone full doom yet. Possibly.

1:12:26Chris Hewitt:You know, so. And four years do elapse between the end of First Steps and him showing up in, I don't know if that's going to be in Doomsday or whether that's going to be one of those classic leading into the next movie Easter eggs. but I've just got a feeling he's siphoning he likes to siphon power he's a power siphoning dickhead he does it's what he does there you go it's what he does but Chapman was really great he talked about how he's fascinated by Doom and by Doom's relationship with the Fantastic Four and not just Franklin but other children that come along later on as well but anyway let's have a This is weird, I understand.

1:13:11Chris Hewitt:Actual question about the film. Can we do that? What's this, number two? It's been 40 minutes. I'm so sorry. Curtis Gasser. What a great name. On Blue Sky. Wouldn't plan B to send Galactus off-planet via a portal, we should talk about portals, have been a much better and easier plan A compared to building teleportation devices around the globe and trying to transport the entire planet. You bring up a good point. Yes. I think the only reason that they didn't go with that instantly is, well, I guess, first of all, it is a bigger risk. It relies on you getting Galactus down to the planet. And as we see, the only way that they do that is by using their literal baby as bait, which is not an obviously first plan, plan A kind of material.

1:14:00Chris Hewitt:No. That's not your plan A, generally speaking. So much can go wrong. and so much does go wrong. But I do wonder if maybe there was another way of creating like a portable portal. I'm sorry. We should talk about portable portals. Sounds like a Jeopardy category. Or in some other way of kind of weaponizing that, you know? Could he not have, could they not have built it in orbit or something? They have faster than light travel, you know, could they not use that? Because he's clearly coming through the solar system on impulse, as it were, just to put it in Star Trek terms. they know which way he's coming yeah so can't they just like send him through a portal where were you I know 60 years ago I can't help being smarter than Reed Richards apparently but no I did think the same thing I think the real answer is narrative tension but that's always the answer to these questions isn't it but but I also think that so much does go wrong like they you know Sue dies they almost don't get him into the portal because he's not a fucking idiot the surfer like destroys all but one of the portals before getting distracted by hot, hot Johnny Storm.

1:15:08Chris Hewitt:And his terrible hair. But yeah, they're going to have an awkward conversation on the other side of that portal, don't you think? I think, yeah. I think it's not a good day to be her. She's like, so... He's like, it's time for your PDR. It's time for your performance review, Shalabal. Well, you've done generally well. You've brought me lots of planets to eat. Yum, yum, tasty planets. Can we talk about the time I kicked you through a portal? Yes, the time you kicked me through a portal. Not great. No rise this year? No rise, no. Medical? No. Dental? He might be like, as soon as I get back to your half of the universe, I'm going straight to your own planet.

1:15:51Chris Hewitt:Yeah, that's right. If I can remember which one it is. Saint-La is fucked. Yeah. Might take a bit, though. It might take a little bit. but yeah I agree there's a necessity as the mother of invention type thread to that and a father in this case because especially given their own terrified reaction to seeing Galactus for the first time I don't think it occurs to them that they might be able to take him as it were because they looked rightfully so terrified so it makes sense that they would come up with an alternate plan I still love that sequence that whole sequence from the moment they take off yes 100 % is the best part of the film no question absolutely incredible Reed's Reed's plan Reed's plan is to teleport the entire planet correct to another Goldilocks zone and he says he has a 2 % margin of error now I think a really bleak ending to this movie might have been him actually doing it but missing and then just putting the earth in Saturn outside the Goldilocks or inside another planet and everyone dies horribly and instantly how about out for is that something you want to go with that's not a super something i want to see if i'm honest no okay i don't feel like it maybe gets across the heroism of the fantastic four as much as we might want oh my god oh my god how about this oh boy read teleports earth to another part of the universe okay okay but gets it wrong.

1:17:28Chris Hewitt:Okay. The planet becomes unstable. Uh-oh. It is about to explode. Oh, no. One of Reed's colleagues, a man called Joel, and his wife, Lara, Oh, boy. send their baby boy from that planet to another planet. Uh-huh. You were doing so well. He becomes a super man. Wow. Mm-hmm. He can't go to Earth because Earth isn't there anymore. Isn't there anymore. Unless there are many Earths. What if everybody calls their planet Earth? Because Earth just means ground, right? So everybody's planet is called Earth, and they go to Earth, but it's a different word. Or Terra. That's a good name for it in comic books.

1:18:13Chris Hewitt:But that's just ground in Spanish. Is it? Those Spaniards. Latin, I think, actually. They're so clever. All right, here's one from Annalie Carlson. Annalie, lads, me on Blue Sky. I just want to say I agree with Helen that Johnny's hair is the worst. Correct. If you ever do a Mount Rushmore of shit hair in film, he'd be up there. He has some competition, I'm not going to lie. Like the entire family in Twilight. With the possible exception of Edward. Everyone else in his family is hair impaired. Hair impaired. Hair impaired. Hair impaired. Yeah, yeah. Colin Farrell in, I don't know, anything where he's not a brunette, if I'm honest.

1:18:53Chris Hewitt:but especially Alexander probably. Yeah. Yeah. I just think you're on... Oh, Winona Ryder's blonde wig in Edward Scissorhands. So dry. Okay. Some people are just brunettes. Okay, let brunettes be brunettes. Brewery Chris, Chris LB, regular question contributor on the podcast. A number of questions from Brewery Chris. Complained somehow but the film was a lack of conflict between the team. they all got along too well would you have wanted clashes between the family members? No. I think you can do it in future if you want but there is a reason that the Fantastic Four are Marvel's first family as opposed to something like the X-Men like they are supposed to be a loving family and I think you have to spend at least your first film pretty much establishing that.

1:19:45Chris Hewitt:There is some bickering and there is some like you know little bits of tension between Johnny and Reed in particular but I don't think this works certainly as a first film if you do that. It's the same way with people. It's a slightly smaller version of this, but people complained that Captain America wasn't racist and sexist enough. You remember that? I did not remember that. People wanted him to be more the Mark Miller version of a 1940s guy. And I'm like, how do you do that and make him the hero of your movie? You cannot, physically cannot. Oh, this was a huge thing at the time. Do you remember?

1:20:20Chris Hewitt:No. Oh yeah, there was a whole argument for that version of Cap. What? I cannot be having with it. Anyway, I think there's a similar thing here. I think if you have too much conflict between your Fantastic Four, you're like, why do these people live and work together? They seem to hate each other. At least for your first film. And there is some conflict here. There are disagreements. You've got Sue calling out Reed on his even contemplation of the possibility of giving up their kid to figure this out. but you have these moments of flash between them, not the flash. And that's important. But I just think if you have them all at each other's throats all the time, why are we doing this?

1:21:02Chris Hewitt:We have those teams. We've seen that. This is a different thing. Yeah. I could have standed a little bit more conflict. Just because you're bickering doesn't mean you don't love each other. I feel like they could have had maybe a little bit more of the conflict. As I said, I thought this film was overall a bit too safe and that might have made it a little more unpredictable in a sense. But by and large, I think they got the family balance right. I really enjoyed them together. One thing, one moment we didn't talk about last time, which was really cute, was Sue being invisible and then turning herself visible, I think, to scare, is it Johnny or Ben?

1:21:46Chris Hewitt:Both. Both. I thought that was fun. And family moments like that, I always enjoy. All right. Okay, here's one from Tass Chowdhury on Blue Sky. Ben was, in my opinion, underused. Do you think there will be a terrible Hulk versus the Thing battle in Doomsday to show the level of strength, if nothing else? I would hope that if there's a Hulk versus the Thing battle at some point in the MCU, it won't be terrible. I would like it to be good. Although, you know, I've always been a fan of when they fought in the comic books, but it's very much like mate what are you doing Ben you're not even close to the Hulk's strength levels just leave it he's not worth it just let it go dude seriously put it away put what away in this case put his his rocky peen Hells Bells do you think that thing could take this current version of the Hulk though could I think what this current version of the Mark Ruffalo Hulk yes Professor Hulk Professor Hulk Do I think that the...

1:22:46Chris Hewitt:I don't think the Hulk would feel the thing's punch. Okay, interesting. Yeah, he's... But the Hulk is the strongest one there is. It doesn't matter whether he's smart. He's still super strong. The thing did single-handedly, like, pull a... Well, there tends to be a correlation, doesn't there? There tends to be, like, a... As he gets smarter, he's underpowered physically. That's what I'm thinking. He's still massively strong. Yeah, but, I mean, this thing did pull an entire shit behind him. Like, that's Hulk-like. Yeah. As far as we've seen that. We have not seen this Hulk smash Mountain Rangers.

1:23:17Chris Hewitt:It's easy to pull a ship, though, because the waters didn't have the job. Oh, boy. That's okay. Well, it depends how deep it is. Anyway, I'm just speculating. Look, this is really nerdy. Wow, even for us, this is pretty like, who would win the fight? Oh, it's not even who would win the fight. I mean, I love Ben Grimm. I love the thing to bits, but it's always weird to me in that the Hulk just doesn't punch him to rocks. Like, there should be nothing left. There should be nothing left of Ben Grimm. Yeah, just dust. and he should pack it up in a little bag and knock on Natasha Lyonne's door and go, there's your boyfriend.

1:23:49Chris Hewitt:Wow. It's dark. This is really some dark ideas. But anyway, yes, I do think that Ben was relatively underserved here. Yes. That was my last question to Matt Shackman. Was it a struggle to fit him into the overall story? Hopefully, should there be a sequel to this, then it might be more Ben-centric. Yeah. He'll get his day in the sun. Yeah. a grim tale if you will Leonard Sultana on Blue Sky why the holy hell aren't we talking about the huge shifting relative size of Galactus in this movie I thought he was relatively consistent size wise no? well we see him yeah I think so we see him in the ship in his own ship where he is big as fuck yeah and then we see him in the city streets where he is also I think big as fuck okay I think he's pretty yeah I think I agree with you.

1:24:42Chris Hewitt:I think he's pretty consistently big as fuck. Yeah. But the Galactus, you know, he can change size. He can change size, yeah. So it doesn't have to be consistent. No. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like when he's walking around Earth, I don't know, maybe it's the camera in the distance, whatnot, but when we see him first in this ship, it's a close-up, so he looks big and fearsome, less so when he's on Earth. He's literal Godzilla-sized. It's like, how big do you consider this? He's like, that to me is really fucking big. He's about 400 feet tall. That's pretty fucking big. I'm not saying he doesn't look big.

1:25:20Chris Hewitt:I'm just saying he looks less fearsome than he does when we're initially introduced to him. Maybe that's because he's in a closed space. Maybe. Yeah, that's a great scene, the way he's introduced. Gail Simone, the comic book writer, was brilliant. Oh, big fan. She was pointing out, she's obviously a massive comic book fan, she was pointing out that she thinks that it was actually un-Galactus-like to kind of bargain with the FF or to even be kind of reasonable with them and go, all right, I'll let your planet off if you give me the baby. I think that's what she was saying, right? That is what she was saying.

1:25:57Chris Hewitt:To be fair to Galactus. To be fair to Galactus. Hear him out. Hear him out. He may have some interesting things to say. He does change his tune very quickly. like you know I will eat your planet while your child watches I think is the line and that's like 20 seconds after he's bargaining with the Fantastic Four but there's an interesting point that Gail Simone raised like Galactus oh I've got it I've got the Gail Simone tweet in the movie Galactus first appears sitting down in his space living room nook speaking calmly being needy and bargaining instead of commanding it still works but it isn't a Galactus moment I don't agree with that Fantastic Four, I'm here to bargain.

1:26:41Chris Hewitt:I think he's been, he's a fair and reasonable dude at the end of the day. Just because you love him. I love him so much. I do think it's an interesting way of very quickly for people who don't care about him in the comics. Not that I'm saying I'm one of them. Why would you get that idea? I think it's an interesting way of painting his situation as a slightly tragic one. of making it clear he is ruled by his hunger and not the reverse, that it is not just a choice that he makes. It is something that he is driven to do. And that is an interesting facet of the character. And this film gets that cross in a way that certainly the previous attempt singularly failed to do.

1:27:26Chris Hewitt:The gas cloud. One of the scenes I think they could probably have cut is the scene where Shalabal makes it back to Galactus' ship. She gets out of the singularity. she manages to escape from the black hole. And it's very much a mustache twirling, bring me the child, I must eat the child because the child is going to be yummy and tasty or something like that. Or the child will free me from my hunger and then yum, yum, yum, yum. And then I can go off and I can see the sights. I've never been to Bangkok. I hear it tastes lovely this time of year. So, you know, Galactus as a normal man going around tourism, doing tourism stuff.

1:28:05Chris Hewitt:Would he be licking buildings? Well, if he's not hungry anymore, maybe not. But the hunger would be kind of like a residual hunger. Would it stay in him? So he'd be going, like, you know, would he be just like trying to bite a door handle every now and again? Just for all time's sake. Yeah, just, you know, just... Just to... As part of his five a day. I don't know. Is it five people a day? It could be five people a day. Snack. Is Hannibal Lecter Galactus? oh god who knows who the futtick knows but that scene I felt was a little bit on the nose whereas everything else I thought they pretty much nailed Galactus I thought he was he was excellent and I liked the way he threw Ben into space he just went yeah fuck off threw him into space and then of course Johnny caught him and then how does Johnny how can Johnny hold the thing that's not a sex thing by the way how can Johnny hold something as heavy as Ben Grimm well just shut up he's got momentum on his side alright okay like Girls 5 ever and he and flame doesn't really hurt rock I suppose well he's he's not burning his hands he's got his hands on human hands well I think we have to assume he has a level of two podcasts back to back my brain is fried I think we have to assume he has a level of strength and stuff as well yes yeah what time has it been I'm not going to say it Johnny what time is it I'm not going to say it it's clumbering time thank fuck he's gone because my arms were breaking did that work for you the clumbering time bit I felt like I've seen it before yeah it did not work the sort of the sort of oh I'm not going to do the thing oh do the thing no I'm not going to do the thing and then eventually does the thing I feel like we've seen it in other films it was cute but it did feel a little stale didn't make me want to picket the cinema didn't want to like boycott everything that Marvel are doing alright we have to wrap it up I have two last things here's one from HK Phil on Blue Sky I enjoyed it up until the point where they decided to sacrifice and gamble all of humanity and the entire planet in exchange for their child it's not a Sophie's choice when the odds are 8 billion versus 1 I couldn't see them as heroic from that point on just deeply selfish parents wow okay interesting I think there is that argument and I think Reed was right to think about it if I'm honest I think he should have thought about it I also understand why it wasn't something that he could actually do because it isn't equal it's the trolley problem it is literally the trolley problem like that is what the whole film is about and what many of the best superhero dilemmas come down to it's do you save Lois Lane or the world you know it's do you save your baby or the world although your baby would have trouble growing up with either world i'm just saying um so sometimes it can be uh badly handled like a lot of the umbrella academies where they're like i don't care if the world's ending i have to save my marriage and i'm like dude where do you think you're going to be married anyway i do think that maybe the film needed to reckon with it more 100 but i thought they did a pretty good job of laying it out from the confines of a summer blockbuster where you never seriously believe for a serious moment that they're going to sacrifice a literal baby to save the world.

1:31:38Chris Hewitt:An encounter to all the, you know, John Stuart Millsian, you know, do the best you can for the most possible number of people. We have the Star Trek 3 slash Child of Omelas argument that actually even the one life matters and you can't sacrifice one life for the collective and still call yourself a good person. That isn't okay. Because it's not your life you're sacrificing, it's somebody else's and that's not okay. I agree with that. So that's why ultimately the film had to make the choice that it made and why anything else is going to feel like a fake out. And the more time you spend on it, the more people are going to roll their eyes and go, you're wasting my time with this, I know you're not going to do it.

1:32:20Chris Hewitt:potentially but I still feel like there was a lot that they a lot more that they could have done with that plot point what though what did you want to see what person's talking about the crowd storming the building and pull in Reed apart like Lacta does at the end again I don't want to go that far they stretch him around the world until he snaps I think an element of that would have served the story I truly do Interesting. All right, we're going to wrap it up because I've got to run, sadly. But this has been a lot of fun, apart from the bit where Helen declared the cinema was dead. That was fun.

1:32:59Chris Hewitt:We're going to give the final questions real quick to Bruby Chris. She's given her ranking of the 2025 superhero films. Thunderbolts number one, Fantastic Four number two, Superman number three, Captain America Brave New World number four. Do you concur or do you conshucur? I would say Thunderbolts number one that's what she said okay good Superman number two alright Fantastic Four number three Brave New World number four alright house bells

1:33:40Chris Hewitt:Thunderbolts Superman Fantastic Four Brave New World I am going to go Brave New World in a big gap no I'm going to go exactly where Bruy Chris did Thunderbolts FF Superman Brave New World and last question from Bruy Chris do you think we'll see the FF in the 616 universe in Doomsday and if they get another solo quote unquote outing do you think it'll be back in the 828 or will they be stuck in 616 after Secret Wars I think they'll be stuck in default single universe I think they will and I think that's a bit of a shame I would have liked to have seen a second movie in this world at the start of doing this day we'll see 828 which is the universe they're in now but they're not going to end the movie there and they're not going to be in that universe again post that movie I think it's a shame I would have liked to have seen a bit more of them in this world we get little hints at all the super villains that they have who I imagine have cropped up because sometimes of the FF you know that escalation thing you know we get to see him old man a little bit but we don't get to see him not really he's a ridiculous character but you know but it could be quite fun here's a dark thought what if they go off so if we assume it's doom on their ship at the end of Thunderbolts yes what if the foursome go off chasing him and they never get home what like Sam Beckett yeah and Franklin's at home ooh yep pretty dark well I think well my feeling is Franklin might be be on the ship with Doom.

1:35:17Chris Hewitt:Possible. Real quick, I'm just going to say I've very much enjoyed the summer of Paul Walterhauser. Between this and Naked Gun, he's been a lot of fun. Not the summer of Sarah Niles? Also that. Summer of Pedro Pascal? I mean, yes, 100%. Sarah Niles, I wish that she had more to do in this film. I'm a big fan of her. I wish she had more to do in her form. Imagine how she feels. As well. but she's always a well about the summer of Julia Garner yeah yeah but like you know some have more big roles in those films than others this is true this is true and don't forget Sarah Niles was also in Heads of State yes she was yes she was alright so Sarah Niles wins no no I mean Pedro still has three films alright it's a draw alright we'll call it a draw and on that note that is it for our Fantastic Four listener questions special sorry we didn't get to all your listener questions but Helen was pronouncing cinema very much dead on arrival.

1:36:16Chris Hewitt:Oh, it's my fault. So, yeah. But, yes. Yes, it's your fault. But I hope you enjoyed it anyway. I hope you enjoyed the Matt Shackman interview. All that remains is to say goodbye to Amon Warman. Peace. Peace be unto you, my friend. It's goodbye from Helena Hara. Toodaloo. And it's goodbye from me. I'm off to Subterranea just to lie low waiting for this whole thing to blow over. Who's coming with me? I'm good. I don't know. I think it's okay. All right. Okay. Feel hurt now. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.