The Interviews (ft. Willem Dafoe; Jujubee & Ginger Minj; Jane Schoenbrun)

0:14Chris Hewitt:Hello Pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to another episode of The Interviews. And we've got three absolute belters for you in this gorgeous September day folks. Disclaimer, may not be gorgeous or September or a day where you are. First up we have the legendary Willem Dafoe Star of Late Fame A film about an ordinary guy who experiences a bloom of recognition in his twilight years For poems he wrote in the 70s Dafoe, of course, has experienced fame for decades now Breaking through in the 80s with movies like Platoon And he's created a memorable collection of heroes, villains and, frankly, oddballs ever since then our Alex Godfrey, spoke to Defoe on Zoom recently and briefly became Willem de Friend.

1:00Chris Hewitt:Here's their chat. Enjoy. I discovered yesterday, not that I was looking for it, but it just came up that it was your birthday yesterday. Happy birthday. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Yep. Did you celebrate? I worked most of the day, but I had a nice dinner with lots of friends, so that was good. Are you a fan of birthdays? No. me neither not really no other people's i don't mind so much but

1:30Jane Schoenbrun:my one the same do you know why um well it's i don't know if you know i i remember when i was doing the film in nepal some of those there's not the same tradition of knowing when you were born some of those people don't even know where they were born you know like the country people they don't keep record of it yeah and i thought that was interesting and they didn't seem to suffer without knowing their birthday i don't know it's just you know it's like any uh it's nice to celebrate things, but I don't know. I write it off to when you grow up as a kid, the kids that have birthdays during school, okay, then it's a social time.

2:24And it means a party. But when it's in the summer, and you come from a big family, you know, it's lost. So I'm quite practiced at not celebrating my birthday in a big way. I think for me, there's something about the enforced celebration of it and the expectation that you're supposed to enjoy it and you just might not care the the prime example of that is new year's yeah i mean that's an occasion uh you're turning a page nobody can deny that but what do you do we know what most people do and if you've done that a couple of times you don't want to do it again yeah they're just calendar dates yeah um you must have had a few birthdays on set have you have you been in positions where people have surprised you and brought out cakes and things and you've yes all the time i remember on the streets of fire they brought out a step stripping gram am oh my god oh my god is right very uncomfortable oh god but i not what i wanted no no so what do you what did you do i was polite i was a polite audience well she's just she's been employed right She's just there to do her job.

3:49Yes, she was a very nice girl. I see you're at home on the farm. Is it a farm that you live on? Yeah, it's a working farm. Had you had experience of farm life before you moved into this? No, no. I'm not a, you know, I grew up in a town of 50 ,000, a paper mill town, but no. nature was close but i had nobody in my family or anyone that really uh did no and even more so i i never had pets my whole life i've never had a pet now i've got lots of animals which i appreciate what's it like suddenly being someone who lives among the animals obviously i like it because it's too much work if i don't i take care of them you know i've got lots of children now yes i'll get off this subject in a second but i'm okay yeah okay okay enough of the animals yeah okay listen i gotta tell you a story that once i was on a movie called heaven's gate and there were lots of actors and successful actors on and i was just a young kid and i had kind of a glorified extras part and i remember i was excited to be in the company of these people and that lunch i thought oh they're going to be talking about cinema and you know and and uh or dostoevsky or or action painting and they were all talking about their farms and their their houses and their animals and i thought how disappointing now here i am look what we're doing look at you now i guess it happens yeah but i can also talk about those other things yeah okay well that's me you asked me I know.

5:53Let's talk about late fame. So for those who haven't seen it, which would be most people listening to this, you play Ed Saxberger, who technically, I guess, is a former poet or an ex-poet. I was thinking about this. It's quite interesting, isn't it, how we define ourselves by our work. Some people define ourselves by what they like to do or what they want to be rather than the job that they have. some people have vocations some people just have jobs um it's really interesting how we categorize ourselves by the work whether we're doing it or want to do it and why why i say technically a former poet i can't he he enjoyed fleeting maybe fame in the 70s and 80s the film is set in present day um but he's been working in the post office for a long time um And he's sort of certainly in the early part of the film, it's he doesn't define himself by that.

6:58He's just a guy who goes to work. But then he is rediscovered and embraced by this group of young, arty people who know and love his work. And I guess they try and bring that out of him again. Would that be right to say? Yes, that's right. That's a pretty accurate broad stroke description of what happens. And he's not a poet anymore because he's not practicing. He's not writing, you know. Yeah. It was a period where he had a life. He had certain kind of aspirations. He was part of a scene. He was practicing. He was going out every night. He was doing readings. He knew people that inspired him.

7:43And that kind of went away. That world went away. That scene went away, or it left him anyway, and then he made the practical choice of going on with his life. And with that, in order to just make a living, I think he had a shift, and he started working on doing a job, a post office job, and stopped writing. So it depends how you look at things, about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I don't think the movie really necessarily judges it, but clearly being a young poet is sexier than, you know, sticking, you know, sorting through mail. Is this something that you've pondered or maybe wrestled with at all?

8:35Do you define yourself by what you do for a living? I think so. I don't mean to and yes and no I mean I do because I will forever be a performer because that's what I do and I've been doing it for a long time and also because of the nature of the work that I do it's a public thing so people are reminding me all the time what I do okay I'm clear there's what I do and who I am And, yeah, there's some overlapping there, but there's some things that, you know, I think very much I identify with what I do. Yeah. Because I love it. I love it. And I enjoy it. And it's always different. So, you know, I'm always different because of the nature of my work.

9:31It's interesting, isn't it? I mean, in terms of creative work and whether it be acting or writing, but specifically what you do, I guess, like you say, you're always different because of the work. It's not just a job. And because of what you do, you are influence inspired and transformed by the work. And I guess with acting, depending on your approach or methodology. Some of the characters, all the work that goes into it stays with you over the years. Yeah, you are absorbed. If you're a cook, you know, and you really love what you do, you know, you may work at different restaurants. You may learn different things.

10:15So you're different kinds of cooks, but somehow you're a cook. Yeah. That's what I do. ed ed saksbergers um was part of the new york scene soho brennage village in the mid late 70s i know it was tweaked a little bit to reflect your own experience at the time you were you moved to new york around then 76 yeah yeah exactly yeah um how much did your own experience or memories inform the form or what you could bring to it? A lot, because there's certain reminiscences he has that needed a particularity. And Sammy Birch has written a beautiful screenplay and did a beautiful thing of transposing this Viennese novella to present-day New York, which made it very relevant, at least to me.

11:23But, you know, she wasn't there in that time. And even Kent came later than I did. So there was some need to personalize some things. So I did think about those times and really what was going on and who I knew. And just in terms of he's sharing his experience, his old experience, with the characters sometimes. So I had to think about what to share and what things to reference and to root it in some sort of reality. There's something really interesting you tell me. I mean, I'm not, I'm guessing that there's not any actual, you know, autobiography involved in here, but, you know, you were able to instill some of your sense of the time and place into it.

12:13But the last time we spoke about this for the magazine, you did say to me one of the ways that you related to what he was going through is you said, I know what it's like when an era is over and you have to go it alone without the support of a community. Yeah, I saw something rise and fall. Something changed, you know. What are you talking about that era of New York? So just, yeah, there was a sense when I was in New York, when I was young, and this is, I'm not saying this is the reality for all people. It was my reality, you know, that, I mean, I continued for 30 years working downtown, you know, with a small theater company.

13:05And we did find some success. And the fact that we survived for 30 years shows a real stability. In fact, the company still exists and still is, I think, is quite well regarded. But I did see things change so rapidly. What was seen when I was young, nobody was thinking about tomorrow. There were just a bunch of young people and there was a lot of cross fertilization. And it was very interesting. I thought, and I don't know if this is unique, but for example, theater I worked at, it wasn't just a company of people that had trained in the theater. They came from different disciplines. And similarly, it really was remarkable that musicians were making paintings, painters were doing dances, poets were making films.

13:59It was all over the place. And even if people weren't hanging out together, like it's imagined, there wasn't a salon, because they were working too hard, there was an energy in this community downtown primarily that felt like a world. that felt like a world and as success came and you know like uh what happened with the art market you know what was on the street and what was happening part of your daily life all started to move uptown and go away from you and get monetized and become careers previously there was whether it's delusional or not i can't say but my experience was you weren't worried about tomorrow, you know, and you weren't worried about career.

14:56You were content just to be hanging out with people that you enjoyed and stimulated you and were trying to make things. And who were you making them for? You're making them for yourself and your community. Your community happened to be very dense with artists and musicians and painters and dancers and musicians so i i think it was a uh a very fertile time and a really fun time for me yeah i think as things became more professional and uh things started to be uh recognized and people started making careers and they got older. And yeah, so it shifted. And poetry was never, it still is, not a way to make money.

15:55So that's one of the worlds that got left behind. Yeah. Well, I know there was a fascinating meta aspect to the production as well. where so obviously on screen the the group of young people that sort of exalt ed um and telling him how much they love you know his work and they want to really bring him into the fold and back onto the stage um are always asking him about his work and that time years ago and i think you've I think you said to me that on set, the actors were doing the same to you and asking you about your acting. And what was that like for you? Well, I had a real concrete thing in real life, in my life, with them.

16:49But that was exactly parallel to what Saxberger was going through. Because you're flattered and they're listening to you. And then you think it's important to share and speak. and then you find yourself get seduced into telling war stories, informulating stories. It begins to harden your image of yourself. You know, it's very seductive. So there I had it right in front of me with the very same people I'm playing the scenes with. And the themes, the feelings, the emotions, the reactions, the thoughts, the curiosities are essentially the same. Yeah. Yeah. So it was interesting for that. But on some level, whenever you do a movie, there's some of that.

17:37Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. Well, we're going to have to wrap up in a minute or two, but there's something else I wanted to ask you that I think is related to this in some way and the passing of time and relationships with art is that I see that you've got another film coming out at some point in the near future with Oliver Stone. um white lies uh which you shot already i think um which sounds great josh hartnett ellen barkin michael douglas news fantastic cast it's been decades since you've worked with oliver stone um born on fourth of july was 1991 platoon was 40 years ago 86 um just really interested to know what it was like going back to work with the director that you worked with so long ago in a different age and a different time when you were both younger people I said I know certainly Oliver Stone was you know on his own trip in those times and very intense but he's older and I assume maybe mellowed in some ways what was it like reconnecting with him and and sort of getting back into a a rhythm that you might have had so long ago?

18:57I don't want you to think I'm glib, but everything the same, everything different. You know, I mean, it was comfortable, but also we had to reenter and have a new relationship. But I will say I was really happy to see him making a film. I was really happy to see him want to make a film. And I was happy to be part of that because the two films that I made with him were very important to me. They were fun. And I think they were good films. So that was a treasure. But I hate to talk about that because there's so many more films before that comes out that probably won't be released for quite a while.

19:46You know? Yeah. I've got a few films coming out, which I'm excited about because everyone I like, and they're all very different, and they're all kind of auteur movies. Yeah. Well, you have Werewolf in a few months. I've got Werewolf. I've got Tenzing, which is about the summiting of Everest. Yeah. And that's very interesting because it's directed by Jennifer Peedum, who was a former mountain climber and did many beautiful documentaries, some which I did voices on. That's how I met her. And then there's Birthday Party, which is based on a Greek novel. And then there's this smaller film, but interesting, from Gaston Solnicki called Le Souffleur.

20:36and Le Souffleur and Le Fing both played at Venice last year. So now it's really nice that they're coming out now. You are extremely prolific, which I'm happy to say. You know, some take a very short time, some take a long time, some are held for... Oh, also there's one called Gonzo Girl, which is a very old movie that, quite frankly, you know, stumbled to get good distribution. And finally, they found someone that was really passionate about it. And now he's bringing it out, which is very exciting because I think it's a good movie. It's based on a novel about a woman that was based on a true story of a woman who was Hunter Thompson's assistant.

21:32Oh, wow. For some months. and but but the film is a fictionalization somewhat i mean i play a hunter thompson-esque character but there's there's no we never call him hunter thompson but there are certain things that certainly make you think of him wow so it's you know it's nice because it's done it's based on something that really happened but there are certain filters up there so it It escapes that kind of, you know, this is how it was. Yeah. The biopicness of it. So, and because he was such an interesting character and they had an interesting relationship and it was an interesting environment.

22:19It's an interesting movie, I think. And that's directed by Patricia Arquette. Oh, incredible. The first feature, yeah, which is very cool. Brilliant. Well, I can't wait. Thank you. I get embarrassed to make a list, but I'm just trying to give you the idea that it's an interesting time for me because these very different movies are being released. Some in, you know, theaters, some less in theaters or very modestly in theaters. But still, they're coming out, which I think is great. I can't wait to see them all. I'm glad you're so busy on and off the farm. So thank you very much. It's always a joy to talk to you.

22:59Thank you. All right. Take care. See you next time.

23:03Chris Hewitt:Okay, that was Willem Dafoe, and Late Fame is out now in cinemas, as is Stop That Train! Adam Shankman's riotous Sucker Abraham Sucker meets RuPaul's Drag Race spoof that sees two stewardesses thrown into danger when a stormaganza threatens a luxury train they're on. Those stewardesses, Dee Dee and Tess, are played by RuPaul's Drag Race Breakouts, Jujubee, and the wonderfully named Ginger Minj. And very good they are too. I caught up with them on Zoom a few weeks ago, and here is that often hilarious conversation in which, yes, we do zero in on Ginger Minj's name. After all, it's not every day you meet someone called Ginger.

23:45Chris Hewitt:Enjoy. Ginger Minj, Jujubee. Welcome to the Emperor Podcast. How are you both? So good, Chris. Thank you. Horrible. Are you horrible? I'm kidding. Come on. I'm fantastic. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to have you here. This is amazing. I must say, this is not the first time I've said the word minge in an interview on the Empire Podcast. You would be delighted to know. And it won't be the last. It won't be the last. There will be numerous utterances of the word minge by the time we're done here. But are they all ginger? That's the question, right? Ginger, do you know this? Amanda Seyfried has the word minge tattooed on her foot.

24:27I do not know this. I mean, I know it now.

24:30Chris Hewitt:Well, there you go. If you learn something, one thing today, it is that. That I am on Amanda Seyfried's foot. Wait, why? Why? So she can walk all over me. Is it because of Ginger Minge, or she just wanted a minge on her foot? Sadly, it predates Ginger Minge, But it's the British spelling of the word M-I-N-G-E And her boyfriend years ago was British And introduced her to the word minge And she loved it so much so It's also her Instagram handle, minge I'm still stuck on pre-date That's kind of funny for me Can you imagine a time when something pre-dated Ginger Minge? No

25:21I miss those days It's your fault Just so everyone knows It is 100 % Jujubee's fault That Ginger Minj was ever on RuPaul's Drag Race In the first place

25:36Chris Hewitt:How come? Because I convinced her to audition And if I could turn back time I would set the butterfly free are you filled with regret then what happened I'm never filled with regret I'm just filled with regret

25:56Chris Hewitt:I was wondering if there was such a thing as pre-gret but regret is so much better than any of those I've been full of pre-gret for years that's nasty I don't I think we should talk about stop that train now well we're getting too deep I don't know I'm pretty gaining myself yes let's talk about Stop That Train because I saw an interview with you guys and you were Ginger you were saying that RuPaul's Drag Race was actually harder to shoot than this movie was it? yeah I mean I think that there are certainly some parallels between it you know I mean when you're being run by the same production company there's a certain uh style there's a certain um machine that you get thrown into a routine that's a routine um but with with both of them with both of them you know i i think having been on the show so many times i was kind of ready for a schedule like that where you get your script and then two hours later you're completely in drag in front of the cameras and you got to be word perfect ready to go and I think that was the reason that we were able to pull this off in 19 days it's pretty wild uh jujube do you concur absolutely and I'll tell you why I'll give you one huge example why okay for RuPaul's Drag Race I had to plan everything myself and I had to bring all these outfits and I had to put myself in drag for stop that train there there were so many groups of people who worked on everything for us all I had to do was show up know my lines sit in a chair, get my makeup on.

27:39Somebody put my wig on for me. And I don't know if you know this about it. Don't you blame somebody else for that hairline. I had bangs, thank you. You did. Or as they would say in the UK, fringe. Fringe. I had a fringe cut. Fringe rhymes with binge. Ginger fringe, get out of here. In the grand scheme of the movie, though, it was harder in certain aspects but as far as me having to get into drag it was so easy the movie was hard but it was also easy I don't know if that makes any sense I think what you're saying I agree with in the sense that like in order to be impartial on drag race you do kind of have to be self sufficient and you don't necessarily get a lot of support from anybody from the company or whatever particularly from RuPaul because she has to stay at her distance but on this film it was so collaborative and we felt supported 100 % the entire way so I think that's what made it maybe not easier but a little less stressful

28:53Chris Hewitt:How did it come your way in the first place? How did this happen? I auditioned twice and then I had a video call I think that's what we still call it in 2026 A video call We're on one right now A video call with Adam Shankman, the director And I looked him straight in the face and I said Adam, this is mine I am Didi And I'm going to prove to you that I'm going to be the best That you've ever seen This character be and I'm going to do it And he giggled and he said Are you sure about that? And I was like, I'm going to prove it to you this is my role and i i'm so glad that i was like that i was so nervous to even be like that but what could what's the worst that could happen no right and it was a yes so i'm really glad that that happened for me but yeah i i auditioned two times because the first time was so good he asked for another video is is there a sense that the first time i don't know was was it were you a bit rusty first time or what happened it was too it was too big oh you went too big went too big yeah it was because i i approached because you know i i we do a lot of theater so my my brain went to let's play for the last row in the audience and i didn't take into account that we were on camera so he and he also drilled into ginger and and me that tess and dd are human in this movie everybody else gets to be outrageous and huge but we we need to be so grounded and that's the only way that the comedy and stop that train's going to work and yeah i loved it i love the idea because to play a human being through the through the lens of a drag queen who's acting as just a character was magical for me well it felt like everybody else was an airplane and the two of us were Thelma and Louise.

31:02That's how I approached it. It was like, it's about these women and their story, and all of this just happens to be happening around us in the moment. Mine was fried green tomatoes. That's what I thought I was in. Yeah, that's because you love food. Oh my gosh, Ginger, that's very rich coming from you. Nothing is rich coming from me.

31:29Chris Hewitt:Those are two wildly contrasting films, by the way, Fried Green Tomatoes, or Tomatoes, as we say over here in the UK, and Thelma and Louise. Tomatoes and Thelma and Louise. Did you try to have a Thelma and Louise-style ending where Tess and DeeDee drive off a cliff to their deaths? Well, maybe that's the ending we win. Tess and DeeDee will never die. Will never die. They would just bounce off the cliff and carry on. We live within you. Yeah, yeah. Of course, I'm not going to give away the ending of the film. Yes, absolutely. No, I mean, the way that I played it was in my head. It was like, we are definitely ride or die, you know?

32:09So if we go careening off of this cliff, I'm definitely going to do it with my best friend by my side, especially after the arc of these two ladies. I think there's a lot to be said about finding your person, whoever that person may be, and just truly investing in that relationship. and I think that these ladies throughout the course of everything that happens in that one day on the train really learn so much about each other and themselves and how to be a better friend so yeah the train goes through a storm of ganza but so does our friendship yes yes and we all

32:47Chris Hewitt:learn a bit about each other as well at the end of the at the end of the film uh and no one dies no one dies I don't want to spoil too much but you don't drive off a cliff to your deaths You're going to tell Derek Berry that nobody dies? That's true Nobody died? Maybe one person died Maybe one person died So what was the hardest day for you guys On this 19 day Shoot Was there a day where you were just rushing From set to set From cameo to cameo I never felt anything that was hard for myself the only one that was hard for me was the day after we did the stunt where Jujubee happens to become a victim of the storm and it's up to me to try to save her when we did the stunt the first time I landed the wire was just not where I thought it was it was all my fault but I landed wrong on the mic pack and it kind of pinched my back for the next day so meanwhile we did all the stunts and everything this day and the next day we were literally just like walking and it was hard for me to watch like oh my gosh this hurts so much you can blame me for it because you're so petite now and my body weight crushed you as you helped me survive my brittle bone it was my it was my fault that's her drag name now Ginger Boniva binge

34:28But it was one of those things like you know when you're In a situation like Drag Race if you hurt yourself even a little bit you're like I don't want to tell anybody because I don't want to get sent home so you just kind of keep it to Yourself and then finally somebody noticed and that was the Difference on this set was they came up and they were like all right we've got you scheduled for a massage You're gonna do this and then you'll be back in costume and ready to shoot and I felt so like taken care of and respected and supported and I never got a massage myself even though I was in that harness did you hurt your back though?

35:02I gave you a massage Ginger you promise you wouldn't talk about this publicly well I lied we need, Chris cut that out