The Interviews: The Odyssey Special (ft. Matt Damon & Tom Holland; Himesh Patel & John Leguizamo)

0:14Chris Hewitt:Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to a very special episode of The Interviews and this one has been 10 years in the making folks. Well, maybe a couple of weeks. Well, actually, when you factor in the editing time, it's only really been a couple of hours. But nevertheless, it has been an epic journey because this is our interview special for The Odyssey. That's right, Christopher Nolan's eagerly awaited adaptation of the epic Homer poem, in which Matt Damon's Odysseus embarks on a torturous 10-year journey home after the Trojan War. It's finally here. It's been years in the making. It opens in cinemas today, Friday, July 17th.

0:53Chris Hewitt:You may even be watching it as I record this, you lucky, lucky people, because it is very much worth the wait. I spoke to two pairs of actors for the special, and you're going to hear them in the order in which I did them. First up, we have Himesh Patel and John Liguizamo, who play two men whose loyalty to Odysseus manifests in very different ways throughout the film. Patel, who is returning to the Nolan Fold after appearing in Tenet, plays Eurylochus. Odysseus' right-hand man on the journey home. And Ligozamo, a Nolan newbie, plays Emmaus, a sheepherder who stands fast on Ithaca, awaiting Odysseus' return.

1:34Chris Hewitt:I spoke to them both about the Nolan experience, and while we don't do any major reveals, there is some discussion about certain scenes and specific moments. So maybe do wait to hear this until after you've come back from your own Odyssey Odyssey. Oh, and obviously we start off by talking about the World Cup, which may be coming to an end now, but back then was in full swing and Ligua Sammo had just been seen at a game along with Matt Damon. Had a blast doing this. Do please enjoy. Hi, Mesh. John, welcome to the Emperor Podcast. How are you both? Great, yeah. Awesome to be here, yeah. Good, good, good.

2:09Chris Hewitt:Before we talk about the film, I want to talk about the World Cup because obviously this movie opens on the weekend of the World Cup final and John, I know you were at a game recently. France, Sweden, and Colombia, Portugal. Two games. Two games. Holy shit. I'm going to the finals, but a club, a special club. Oh, my God. That's pretty amazing. How was it? Oh, my God. Colombia winning was insane. And Matt came down. Right. Because, you know, he wanted support. It was incredible. Everybody was flipping out. There was so much yellow at the stadium in Florida because every Colombian in America went there.

2:45It was like 70 ,000 people.

2:47Chris Hewitt:Wow. Do you lose yourself when they score? Oh, my gosh. Screaming, yelling, crying. How can you not, man? It's an emotional sport. It is. Emesh wouldn't know that he's a Spurs fan. He wouldn't know. Trust me, I know emotions. I know emotions. You're a Spurs fan? Mostly I know, oh, why? Pain. We won a trophy. Yeah, that's true. Like just over a year ago. That's very, very true, indeed. But you didn't get to the World Cup, did you? Because the last time we spoke, you were heading to New York for an event, but you didn't get to go to a game. But I watched the England game the other day during our lunch break in New York when Harry scored that amazing winner.

3:27And I just thought, like, that's why he's one of the greatest of all time.

3:33Chris Hewitt:That's football out of the way. Let's talk about the Odyssey. When did your Odyssey begin and how did it begin? Himesh, obviously you'd worked with Chris Nolan before. So did you get a phone call? I got a call from my agents saying, you know, Chris is offering you a role in his next movie. And I was like, are you kidding me? Like, just an offer? Because I auditioned for Tenet. And I didn't think I was like, but, and then I had to wait a few days for him to call me and tell me what it was, because my agents had no idea. No one knew at that point. And he told me what it was that we were doing, the role I was playing.

4:09And he told me that I might want to do a few pushups. And I tried, but. and yeah and then and away we went about a month or so later oh wow

4:21Chris Hewitt:so now once you're in the Chris Nolan Club you audition once and then he just calls he just goes I want that I mean it seems to be the way for me I feel eternally privileged you know to have been a part of a movie like this and not have had to audition is just such a huge privilege and I'd be thankful for it for the rest of my life amazing and John what was your experience was it a clandestine meeting in an underground car park or did you get a call It was kind of like that, actually. Yeah, because you're not going to call. He was stood in the shadows. Waiting for the code word. Code word is UMass.

4:52Chris Hewitt:UMass. You know, they said he was interested in me for a role. And then we met for lunch. He had to meet with me first to see, I guess, if I could eat properly. I'm not sure what it was. But he started to talk to me about the role and what it demanded. You know, there was a lot of exposition. Can you make it conversational? He's the most loyal character in Western literature, yada, yada. I'm getting too excited. And at the end of the two-hour lunch, he offered me the part, and I tried to act cool and whatnot. I'm like, yeah, that's great. But inside, I was like, I ran home, called all my friends, hugged my wife, kissed her, whatever.

5:32It's a big deal once you get into the Norman camp.

5:36Chris Hewitt:Yeah. How much did you know about Emmaus, first of all, before that meeting? I mean, I read the Odyssey as a kid, and I read it in college again, but I didn't remember Eumaeus as the most – I didn't remember Argus. Yeah. You know, those are like harder parts to like absorb. But the way he created this role, this real guy who protects his son, teaches him about his dad, takes care of the dog, the property, and feels like he's a surrogate son to him. When he comes back, he's filled with so much pain and emotion and vulnerability that that's what I had to live up to. And it's Eurylochus, the Israeli character, Himesh.

6:12Chris Hewitt:And what did you know about him? Did you do a lot of research once you were offered the role? I mean, I read the Odyssey having never read it in its full form. And I was just waiting for Eurylochus to be mentioned. And then he's mentioned like once when he does something very stupid. And then that's it. so I was very thankful that he'd beefed the roll up in this adaptation but what it adds I think is that it adds a level of depth to him in a sense of people know him as this guy who does a thing that isn't a great idea and doesn't help the cause of trying to get home but the reality that we built into this version is that it's the culmination of this erosion of faith in his king, in his leader and it's actually a really heartbreaking thing that he that he decides that this isn't working yeah and i'm gonna have to take matters into my own hands we are gonna have to take matters into our own hands you know i really love that moment before cersei's um cersei's palace would you call it but um when he's you know he asks is this a mutiny and heurilicus says that's up to you you know that's that's it's really heartbreaking and it's i mean it's an example of his great writing.

7:26Chris Hewitt:It strikes me that both characters in a way are both examining the concept of loyalty because they're both very loyal to Odysseus and until, in your case, you're not. But even then you can see the conflict in that relationship whereas Eumaeus is someone who is absolutely, unflinchingly, unstintingly loyal to this guy. And I know, John, from previous interviews you've done that you felt that that was fairly easy to be loyal to Matt. You know, Matt is like, you expect this movie star, you know, with attitude, you know, privilege, entitlement. But that's not Matt. Matt's a regular guy, hangs out, cracks jokes.

8:09It takes care of you. He's an amazing dude. So it was easy to transfer my feelings of my own kids to Matt and making my surrogate son. And then with Chris being there, you know, Chris stands right there at the camera. so when you're doing these intimate scenes you really feel like you're in great hands and safe hands to be as vulnerable or as emotional as you have to be and I let myself go I let myself be as painfully vulnerable as I could be

8:39Chris Hewitt:How much older than yourself are you playing? I'm playing like hopefully 30 years older maybe not so much I look haggard as fuck Yeah and he's obviously a man who's sight impaired as well. Right, right. They built these contacts. Louisa Abel, who's a brilliant makeup artist. You know, they're hand painted by only one person in LA. And, you know, and then I can't see at all. You know, I have to be taken to places to the bathroom. Oh, my God. I mean, I can find myself in the bathroom. I just need to be taken. You don't need an assistant. Yeah, the other stuff feel good. Yeah, I got that. I got that.

9:16Chris Hewitt:I'm sure I mean you guys are put through the ringer in this there's a lot of physical stuff a lot of physical action a lot of water as well a lot of being shunted around yes on the open seas fun day at the office so fun though very fun yeah hard of course physically the most demanding thing I've ever done thank god you did those push-ups yeah yeah well did I but um I'll let the audience to be the judge of that um but uh yeah it was it was a thrill you know it was tough of course at times it was tough yeah but that's because chris wants that sort of visceral quality which we all know from his filmmaking but this takes it to another level when you see us at sea when you see the boat sort of crashing over the waves it is doing it is actually doing that you know and some of the guys are not feeling great in that boat um you know what do you call it vomit on one side yeah so there was a point where there was a day in scotland where the boat was moving quite a lot in the water, but it was still deemed safe for us to go out.

10:14But that's where we got a lot of that sort of the movement on the boat. On one side of the boat, you've got a bunch of the guys throwing up who just, they get seasick, they can't help it. On the other side of the boat, a bunch of us were just staring at these dolphins that had come out alongside the boat. So yeah, we were just talking about this vomit and dolphins. Vomit and dolphins is kind of... That's the theme of the whole movie. We were saying that'll be our hearts of darkness. It'll be called Vomit and Dolphins. Because it is that beautiful to be in all these locations, but they're tough locations, man.

10:42I mean, being on, in fact, 900 feet above sea level, you had to climb up that thing. I mean, I can only do it one day because it's like an hour. And I took the helicopter the following day, but everything was poisonous on top of there. You could fall off this cliff, but it was safe. We had the most amazing stunt crew that in the history of stunting who made sure that we were all safe at all times.

11:04Chris Hewitt:Wow. And Chris obviously leads from the front as well. Absolutely. There have been stories over the years that the chairs are banned on Chris Nolan sets. Obviously, you're sitting on chairs right now. This is luxury for you guys. Yeah, I sat on rocks and stones. Yeah. You're welcome to sit down on whatever's available. They're not going to deny you that. Yeah, but they're not going to carry a chair. No. Do you get fined if you're on a chair or something? No, because whatever you're sitting on is available for you to sit on. So, you know, I imagine when you were filming in the palace. Yeah. Oh, there were seats everywhere.

11:39Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were benches and stools. Yeah, yeah. Whatever was period and available, that's what you're going to sit on.

11:44Chris Hewitt:You're going to have a sneaky sit down. What's the best piece of direction Chris Nolan gave you both? I mean, sometimes you just need the simplest form of the note. And there was a shot in Greece where it's myself sort of interrogating this one Greek guy. It's an amazing actor. and we ran it once and then we were going to go again and obviously with these IMAX mags there's only two and a half minutes in a mag so Chris had to ask the camera assistant how long is left in the mag and she was like look if they do it like that we're going to go over it's going to roll out but we could go a bit faster or then Hoyter was like well I could try this and some of the other guys were like well we could try this and Chris just went and just pointed to the three of us in the scene and went faster, faster and we got it You know, sometimes it is that simple.

12:31Yeah, very George Lucas. I love that.

12:34Chris Hewitt:John? For me, it was a scene where Matt has come back, and I'm not sure it's him, but I think it's him. And I'm in the bed, and I'm freezing cold. And I said, I want to try this thing. And I'm not sure. So, you know, this sort of feverish dream, barely audible. And he said, go for it. Just do it. And then we'll see. We can always do another take. And so you felt so safe to try stuff. If it doesn't work, then I'll be more audible and more articulate. But, you know, it was good that I was able to bring it down to a place that may not even be heard. Amazing. Because I guess when you take a role like this and you don't audition per se, I mean, you had a lunch with Chris and Himesh, you got the call after having worked with him previously.

13:19Chris Hewitt:When you get to set on day one, is there a sense of fear? Because you haven't auditioned. you haven't necessarily placed yourself in the role before you get to set. So what's your preparation like? Do you turn up the set going, can I do this? Well, you've been with Chris a lot. I mean, you spend a lot of time. Chris is very hands-on and he wants reality. He wants things to be truthful. And so he's checking the hair, the special effects makeup, the contacts, the costumes, everything. He's there with you. So you feel protected. So you feel like we're going after the same thing. It is pure reality.

13:55so you you feel so confident on day one the only thing that was different for me was i never worked with the imax camera i know you did yeah so that was kind of daunting just because you know it's the size of it you know your face is going to be like extra extremely large so you you are aware then you feel like this extra extra little bit of pressure to make sure that everything's extra real yeah all right one last question for you both um do you have an odyssey in your lives do you have

14:20Chris Hewitt:something that has consumed you for 10, 15, 20 years that maybe you still haven't achieved? I mean, look, I'd love to, you know, I'm working on writing right now, but trying to sort of like give yourself that confidence to go, okay, I can do it and just give it a go. You know, I've been trying to write scripts since I was like a 16-year-old, like since I've learned what that is and that you can do it. but I haven't yet sort of done anything that sort of ended up being made or that I felt the confidence to do, and I've barely written anything really. So kind of the odyssey for me is sort of just building that confidence and sort of permission to oneself to do it.

15:02Amazing. John? Well, I'm an activist in America, so I've been trying to get equal opportunity for Latin people in America, and I've been doing that my whole life. My mom was an activist as well. You know, we're the largest ethnic group in America after white people. And yet we're virtually invisible.

15:22Chris Hewitt:I wish you all the best with that. Thank you. As well. And Himesh with your writing. Thank you. Guys, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much. Thanks. Sorry to bring us all down. No. I was like, all of a sudden I killed the energy in the room. And that was Himesh Patel making his second Empire podcast appearance in just a matter of weeks after playing Dr. Watson in Enola Homes 3. and John Leguizamo, who has taken nearly 10 years to fix John Wick's car. One day. One day. Last, but certainly not least, we have Odysseus himself and his son, Telemachus, which I can say now, but I banjaxed royally during this interview, with Matt Damon, who plays Odysseus, the grizzled warrior battling a sea of torment and doubt as he tries to make his way home, and Tom Holland, who plays Telemachus, the son eagerly hoping to reconnect with the father he never knew.

16:12Chris Hewitt:This is Damon's third Chris Nolan rodeo, having appeared in both Interstellar and Oppenheimer. And Holland's first and the father-son duo were on cracking form. Enjoy. Matt, Tom, welcome to the Emperor Podcast. How are you both? Yeah, great. Good to see you. Good, good, good. You getting some nice father-son bonding time in? That's it, yeah. There wasn't a lot of time spent together on the set of this movie for obvious reasons. Yeah, we didn't have a lot of scenes together till the end. But we were around. Tom was nice enough to come to dinner with my daughters, which was quite the event in the Damon household.

16:50But yeah, no, I love the structure of the movie and really of the poem because of how it brings them together. Tom, what was your recollection of that dinner around Matt's?

17:03Chris Hewitt:We had a lot of fun. We did have a lot of fun. We were at a lovely little Italian restaurant in Favignano. Oh, I thought Matt had cooked. No, no, no. I wouldn't subject him to that. Tint of spaghetti. No, it was lovely. It was really nice. One of my favorite things about meeting your kids was the way they chat about your friends. Because they'd be like, do you remember that time when Brad came over? And then I'd be sat there like, I wonder if they're talking about Brad Pitt. Or just some dude named Brad. Or just some guy named Brad. Or when Ben came around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ben's do you know.

17:34Chris Hewitt:But did it help? Did it help in terms of the bond? Oh, absolutely. It's a strange one because Telemachus can never get that right. He obviously has never really met Odysseus. He's pining for him. But there's still a bond of sorts there. Yeah, absolutely. We had some time before we started shooting in prep where we were fight rehearsing and doing archery training and that sort of thing. And then what is so great about the way Chris works is that he wants everyone to be ready and available. So even on days where I wasn't working, I would be on location. You know, there were periods of time where I didn't work for two weeks, but I was still out there on location, staying in the same hotels.

18:13Should, you know, Mother Nature decide to rain for three days and they want to pivot to a different scene. And that meant that, you know, every night everyone's eating in the same hotel. Everyone's waking up. We're all bumping into each other in the gym. So there really was a strong sense of camaraderie and family, even for the people like myself that weren't on set all day, every day.

18:33Chris Hewitt:And Matt, obviously, you had a bit of a head start on this movie because Chris called you before he gave you the script. You had, what, two weeks or so to immerse yourself? Yeah. Something like that in the poem? Yeah, yeah. I went out and read it again. And it's so interesting the way it changes for you depending on the age you are when you read it. and and and what you it's just so dense it's so full of uh it's why it's the original story it's the foundational story it's kind of appears in every other story that we tell and um and uh and the adaptation that chris did i thought was uh really remarkable i i keep saying i i he's he's he's undervalued as a writer because he's so impressive as a director um but i've now read three of his screenplays with Interstellar Oppenheimer in this one.

19:24And the two adaptations, you know, that Oppenheimer book was very dense. It won the Pulitzer Prize. And he really did a remarkable job adapting that. And I felt that same way about, you know, this very big story and how he sets everything up and ties it together. And it's just built like a Swiss watch. It's just a great piece of writing.

19:47Chris Hewitt:How did he describe Odysseus in that script? Do you remember? How did he describe him? Yeah. Oh. He looks like Matt Damon. I don't recall. I don't think there was much description. I mean, Homer describes him, of course, as a complicated man. Yes. Like Matt Damon. Yeah, exactly. Like all of us. Like all of us. How did he describe Telemachus? I got it right this time. I got it right. Well done. Thank you. I got a cookie. I remember in our first conversation, one of the things that he... felt was very important was to maintain his youth and vulnerability. You know, it's very easy to read that character and try to find a way to make him feel overly masculine and aggressive and, and feel like a man, you know, but I think it's really important that in those early scenes, when you meet him, you are really seeing a boy and a boy that is pining for his daddy, as Rob says so well in the film.

20:45Yeah. And he's supposed to be 16. Okay. And so for me, that was one of the things that we spoke about the most was finding ways to make him feel very youthful and vulnerable. So that as the movie goes on, what's so cool is I have these three fight scenes and each fight scene to me feels like a step in the right direction to becoming a man. And one of the coolest things about Chris is that he's a real collaborator. You know, he knows what he wants and he has a real clear sense. But there was a portion of my story that happened very much in the middle, which we ended up saving for the end. And I think that doing that just really was a nice bookend to my character arc for the rest of the film.

21:29Chris Hewitt:Matt, obviously, we're flitting back and forth in time here. We're seeing Odysseus at various stages of his life, apart from things like hair colour, beard colour, length, things like that. How did you track those changes? You're going day to day, right? Yeah, it's day to day and they're very clear in the script. And sometimes we'd have to do a change midday. But yeah, it was, you know, I had my beard and so it would just be, if I saw the little thing of lacquer come out, I knew we were going young. It smelled blue. You know, it was dark in the beard and dark in the hair. And but but obviously we're shooting out of order and we're shooting, you know, every day.