The Odyssey: Listeners' Questions Special

26:49Let's hope they sailed to some nearby islands and got some more stuff. And I think, I mean, wouldn't they notice how heavy it was? Anyway, I think usually it's like...

26:58Chris Hewitt:I mean, it's just heavy, right? It's just a heavy horse. Usually it would be like a child's horse on a cart. That's how you often see it portrayed. It's drawn like a child's horse on a cart with little wooden wheels and stuff and they just have to pull it into the city. This is much more blood, sweat and toil, which you'd probably expect of Nolan. but also that sense of them just the claustrophobia and the fear inside I thought was really effective some really great race notes in that as well when they're stabbing inside the horse and then they remove the blood before the sword comes out Odysseus is like literally wiping the sword so there's no blood on it I've missed that twice I've seen the film twice now I missed it both times very much like the raid that sequence in the raid where Ico gets hit with the sword and he's literally wiping it over his fingers as it goes out I'd still do a bit more stabbing.

27:46Chris Hewitt:I'd also look at the horse for the... I'd look around the horse and I would inspect it for secret trapdoor openings. Might be smart. Yeah. I do have questions about what if they needed a wee? How long are they in there without a wee? They say that. Yeah, they do. They talk about they were in their own piss and shit. I know, but then doesn't it smell? Yeah. Aren't they vomiting because of the smell? Do they have any food? They've been in there for how long? three, four days, maybe longer, right? Because they don't know when the Trojans are going to come across and find the thing. So they get into battle readiness mode very, very quickly.

28:23Chris Hewitt:Again, Homer, page one, rewrite. Wow. In fairness, we only hear about this through Odysseus' Chronicle in Homer. It's covered in other books, but not in the Iliad. The Iliad finishes with Hector's funeral. Achilles isn't even dead yet. Troy hasn't fallen. So it's only like tangentially mentioned in Disse's own words in the Odyssey. But nevertheless, in this movie, the horse is dragged into Troy. A couple of hours later, night falls. They pop their little secret trap door, which is, I guess, maybe not visible from the outside, thanks to craftsmanship. And then they abseil down the rope and none of them have cramp.

29:10and all of them

29:11Chris Hewitt:can immediately he does a little bit nobody stretches Helen they're immediately launching into battle they're grabbing guards they're strangling them they're stabbing them he takes a moment at the bottom he does I'm with Chris on this one I'm sorry it's only a moment but he does have it he does have it oh god I've been in that horse I've been smelling other people's shit for four days but now I'm ready to fight yeah Chris I think we have to go and watch The Honest Year again to recap this moment it happens I swear I also just love like the again not going to stand up for the historicity of Agamemnon's armor but oh my god it looks so fucking cool it's so cool yeah I think that's what the kids call aura farming seriously it's so it's like a Zack Snyder character suddenly just popped up in a Chris Nolan film it is it is so cool and then to know that he's played by Benny Safdie from Happy Gilmore 2 amazing Do we see his face much in the movie?

30:11Chris Hewitt:Barely. Yeah. That's an interesting choice. The most we see of his face is as it's getting stabbed. Yes. Someone said he has resting propeller hat face. And I think that's mean. Oh, that's harsh. But also, he has a pleasant, likable face. So they have to hide it. But he is a tall guy, so that kind of works. Yeah. Yeah, so going back to the Oppenheimer, the last lines of the movie. Penelope or Penny Lope says civilization will rise again and Odysseus says and dawn will break over the darkened world and our mistakes will once again be forgotten. Odysseus is Maximus? I mean I'm here for it. Welcome to the new world of gods and monsters.

30:57Chris Hewitt:And that's you know that is that's so that's so Oppenheimer. He was so wrong to think his mistakes would be forgotten and here we are over 2 ,000 years later going boy he fucked up didn't he yeah he did it's just a tale of a man fucking up repeatedly it's so relatable in that regard and maybe that's one of the reasons why he cast Matt Damon right because if it had been if it had been someone who was six foot four with a and listen Matt Damon has a six pack not denying that whatsoever but because he's Matt Damon yes he's chasing fucking board of course he is but at the same time he's also normal-ish and relatable in that way as you can you see the guy you like the guy the guy fucks up repeatedly you go yeah I understand that and you still have at least in the earlier part of the movie he's messing up but he's still he's still far after he's still cunning and he's still sort of a guy you want to follow into battle I think you get that with Matt Damon and you also get the relatableness but you also get the Jason Bourne of it all as well I think I actually leaned over to you the first time we watched this in the final act, when he's just taken everyone down.

32:12I was like, that's Jason Bourne. Oh, shit, that's Jason Bourne. I think it's interesting because in some ways, someone like a Ben Affleck would in some ways make more sense as Odysseus. Like Odysseus is meant to be, well, maybe he's too tall. I think Odysseus is meant to be one of the shorter of the Greek commanders, but whatever. but he's meant to be you know that famous word in the opening line of the odyssey um emily wilson talks about in her review which translates as many turning like he's he's he's twisty he's turny he is hard to pin down and i think someone like a ben affleck is more that guy like matt damon seems much more grounded much more solid much more this is this is me i know who i am and i'm going to face the world like this um he's not he doesn't come across as a trickster he doesn't come across as a liar and Odysseus is both and I do take on board the criticisms of this film that you have lost a lot of Odysseus's lying and you have lost this this idea that he's a fantasist and a you know a manipulator and absolutely a liar this is the thing but I think there is I think this is a legitimate criticism I don't care but I think it's legitimate like I I really thoroughly, as you know, loved this film.

33:29Yes. And I think it works exceptionally well. But I think it is fair to note that this Odysseus is kind of Hollywoodized. He is much more moral than the Odysseus of the poem or indeed of many previous versions. He doesn't straight up massacre all the suitors. We do not see him ordering his son, Telemachus, to straight up execute a bunch of serving women, who did, or slaves, who did nothing more than do what they were told and basically sleep with the suitors, which they were told to do.

34:01Chris Hewitt:Yeah, Mia Gough's character doesn't get any closure, which I noticed. No, I think that is a nod to what happens in the poem, which is basically, it is implied that she is left in this kind of charnel house to, if she gets killed, she gets killed because she sided with the suitors and fuck that girl. I get that, but she has a moral culpability in that moment, which in the poem, they explicitly do not have. Odysseus is like, I know that it wasn't their fault, but we still need to kill them all. And then they do. They literally hang them. And their suffering is prolonged and it is significant. So they've left that out.

34:35They've left him choosing to sleep with both Calypso and Cersei. In full knowledge of what he's doing, he's not in any drug, you know, hoo-ha there. Yeah, you said on a previous podcast

34:47Chris Hewitt:that he practices safe sex in that scene with Cersei. And I didn't understand what you meant then. and I don't understand what you mean now. So basically, in the poem, she's turned, they've left him on the beach, which they can do, because they're like, dude, you're not great luck for us right now. You just stay here, we're going to go ahead and see what's up here. That's up to you. And similar, but not quite the same. So he stays behind, and they go off, and then they don't come back, and he goes looking for them. And I think Hermes finds him on the road and says, by the way, there's a witch up ahead.

35:18She's turned your men into pigs. I'm going to give you like a potion that will mean that you don't turn into a pig. but you are going to have to...

35:24Chris Hewitt:Page one, rewrite. But you are going to have to, like, you know, get your men back and here's how you do it. And the way that he does it is basically he agrees to sleep with her, but he makes her promise, first of all, not to turn him into anything or use her magic against him and to turn his men back. So that is his version of safe sex. But in the movie, he doesn't actually practice safe sex because no sex happens. Because no sex happens. So he basically, yeah, it's kind of a Hollywood morality thing. I still want the extended cut of this movie where Odysseus explains to Penelope where he has been and what the journey is.

36:00I just want to see Penelope's reaction to this entire story. So there was a Cyclops and then there was these big Lastragerian guys and there's Calypso. What's he doing with Calypso?

36:11Chris Hewitt:Yeah, and there was a witch who turned all my men into pigs. But don't worry, she turned them back again. It's all good. And then I was on an island with Charlize Theron for seven years, but nothing happened. Nothing happened. I was very chased. I was chased. I was chased all over that island. And when she caught up with me, who knows what happened. Oh, boy. Well, in fairness, I mean, you know, mens rea, like if he did something while under the influence there, who can say? So can we unlock Odysseus by saying Fahrenheit, homecoming, 19, longing, rust. Oh, man. Boxcar? Boxcar? Furnace? I think by the way there was an entire separate island of the Lotus Eaters early on I think it's the first island that they hit in the book where everything you've said so far that he's cut I'm going yeah that's a good decision this is what I'm saying 100 % these were all good decisions so the island of the Lotus Eaters he sends a couple of people up sailors up to find if they can get food and water there and the sailors don't come back so he sends a couple more and they also don't come back and then he realizes that they're all just getting high so he sells on it's not a very He just leaves them.

37:20Wow. You know, I think he might maybe goes and gets them back. But the point is, he's like, there's nothing for us here. There's just getting high. We ain't going to do that because we got to get home, guys.

37:30Chris Hewitt:At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether he gets them back. They're all going to die anyway. Right? Yeah, on a long enough timeline, maybe. But they do die because they're a part of his ship. They're scuttled. Yeah. What did you guys make of Tom Holland's performance? Because in the wake of this coming out, there was a little bit of hate directed towards him. No, really? Yeah. People were, I mean, I think, I remember Variety did a ranking of the performances in the film and he was very, very... That's harsh. I think he's 100 % dead on. I think he has a hard path to tread because that is exactly pretty much Telemachus' written.

38:03And I think, I thought it was really fascinating actually because I watched this and he is playing that sort of very boyish, kind of Spider-Man-ish character, really well-meaning but not quite sure what to do with it, you know. and I thought that that was really fascinating and then I watched Spider-Man Brand New Day and for the first time he seemed like a growing up man to me and I thought that was really really interesting in two back-to-back films it genuinely felt like he had intentionally been playing very much younger than he now is

38:33Chris Hewitt:I mean he still is, Telemachus is 16 that's what he's meant to be, that's what Tom Holland told me in the interview, it doesn't make any sense the maths just don't check out but I should say for example that he has to be for the maths to check out, for him to have been sired by Odysseus before he left and then takes 20 years for 10 years for the Trojan War. 10 years. So he's got to be 20. He can't be 16. He's got to be at least 20. He should be 21 by the time he gets back. It's possible that those early scenes are meant to be a few years before. Like there's meant to be a bit of a passage of time in his storyline during the movie itself.

39:10Look.

39:10Chris Hewitt:It's not entirely clear though, is it? No, it's not. but I mean when has the passage of time in a Christopher Nolan film been entirely clear to you? That's a loaded question. Tenets. To anyone. To anyone I mean you know. It's one of the things I love about Nolan I actually think that he is he's really great at nailing those little shifts in chronology and time jumps and time gaps. Okay. Again I think Holland's maybe going from the poem in that because Telemachus does go several years before his dad comes back to Menelaus to ask what's going on. And there's a whole thing as well where he goes to Nestor's house, which again, you can absolutely leave out Nestor.

39:49Nestor is the oldest of the Greek commanders, Troy, and he is a windbag. And he's always talking about basically... Not a bag of wind. Not a bag of wind. Very important. Very different. And basically, he's all welcoming, but also a little bit boring. And Telemachus befriends his younger son and hangs out with him and then they go off charity at racing and stuff together. You don't need it. You know, they did right to just focus on Menelaus. Page one reason. page one rewrite I agree with you in that I think Tom Holland is is great in this my second favorite acting moment in the film is actually his it's when he realizes that he's been talking to Odysseus the entire time and he realizes it's fine it actually reminded me of his best at least pre-brand new day acting moment in the MCU which is when Tony knights him in Avenger it's a similar thing that he's doing with his face I think in terms of all that realisation that things everything has just changed I think he's really really good in that moment so yeah my favourite acting moment is still Robert Pattinson in the final act hiding behind the hand going get the shields get the shields get the swords get the wheels that was fantastic my god he is just he's just I mean best I love him so much

41:06Chris Hewitt:is it because Tom Holland you know as you said Telemachus this is the character as written, but he's not a bastion of quote-unquote masculinity. He's a young kid who's trying to live up to this impossible ideal, this impossible act to follow, which is his dad is fucking Odysseus. Exactly. And he doesn't quite have the chops, but he's a kid who's growing into his manhood, so to speak. It's a coming of age story. Yeah, and he's not grizzled or growling or he doesn't have a deep voice so he's not smoking fools left, right and centre. I can see why that would annoy a certain group of people on the internet.

41:45Chris Hewitt:But fuck him. There you go. Yeah, 100%. There we go. That is the answer to most of the quibbles about this film. I have read several very long form, not just the Emily Wilson criticisms of this film. And in many cases, I'm like, yes, you absolutely have a point. I understand leaving out the bit where he tells Polyphemus that his name is no one, which also has a double meaning in Greek and sounds a bit like I'm sly but anyway and then when Polyphemus' neighbours go hear him screaming and go hey are you okay? who's hurting you? and he goes no one's hurting me and then they're like oh okay I guess and fuck off you know you lose a little bit of Odysseus' cleverness when you lose that line but also it is a bit silly it's a bit more cartoonish than the rest of this film I understand why you had to lose it I think there are other ways that they could have maybe shown him being more of a trickster than they do but I get it.

42:36That's not the film that Christopher Nolan was really focused on making. And I think this also works and I think this is a really interesting take on the poem which is the important thing.

42:45Chris Hewitt:That scene with Polly... Polly... Polly... Polyphemus. Polyphemus. Polly wants a cracker. Do you know what really gets me is all the people whose name begins with Yuri which... You're a Locus. Eurylochus. You're a Clea. Eurylochus. You're a Clea and there's one other and then Eumaeus as well. Yuri Geller. Oh, it's too many. So the scene with Polyphemus. Polyphemus. I got this right in the first podcast. I don't know why I'm really bumping up against it now. Second time around, it tickled me because it's basically just like, you know the bit in The Dark Knight Rises where every single police officer in Gotham runs underground looking for Bane and then they get trapped.

43:22Chris Hewitt:I'm not kidding. Every single police officer in Gotham runs underground. It reminded me a little bit and you know he has people on the boats including Josh Stewart from the Collector films and also from Criminal Minds who's part of the Nolan kind of repertory company. He's in The Dark Knight Rises as well. Good actor. But at the same time, he goes to this cave and goes, right, all my men will go into this cave. Should we have a lookout? No. It's fine. You want all of us in the cave, Odysseus? Yes. Any reason? No. A little bit like that. But again, my complaint lies not with Christopher Nolan or indeed Emily Wilson, but with that hack.

44:01Chris Hewitt:Wow. Homer. Oh my God. in fairness I think he's he's planning on Zeus's law being a thing he's like no no they're going to welcome us they're going to share this delicious cheese with us at least he was smart enough to not kill the Cyclops because then they would have been trapped in the cave with no one out yeah I mean it was very close it was very very close should we have some listener questions sure alright so hopefully these will allow us to tackle other areas of the film that we haven't yet talked about alright I'm taking these on Instagram first of all ctah1976 ask people for questions they have responded here's one from Mr.

44:37Chris Hewitt:Schienbach Mr. Schienbach and James isn't here but has James figured out what the whole stick thing with Page and Pattinson was all about let's throw it open to Amon and Hells Bells so the whole stick thing there was the drawing of the lots the drawing of the lots and Antinous' shame all of that stuff it seemed a little more clear to me second time around what was going on. Then Antinous had obviously switched lots with Sinon, but had also, I think Odysseus mistakes what's happening. Yeah, it's confusing because either Odysseus mistakes it or he's trying to cover for, or he does understand, but he says as if he's mistaken it to cover for Antinous.

45:24So that's, I think, what makes it unclear because we expect our hero to be telling us the truth. and I don't think he does in that moment.

45:34Chris Hewitt:You expect the hero in that moment to go, hey, I saw what you just did. Exactly. And that's not fucking cool. I don't think he did see what happened. I think he missed it. I think that's, yes, because he clearly has a revelation later when he talks to Sinon in Hades. So I think that's how I now read it as well. But on the first viewing, it did really confuse me. And we hung out afterwards with James and we're trying to figure this out and we didn't all get it. It was unclear because even on the first spoiler special, I thought they were brothers. because he talks to I think it's Sinon's father.

46:07Chris Hewitt:I think it's Sinon's father. It's either Antinous' father or Sinon's father. And he says something that implies that they were pals, but they just happened to be standing next to each other. I don't think they were related necessarily. No, I think they just know each other. It's not that big an island. This is in the article I referenced that Ben Travis wrote about Sinon. He talked about this. This is what he says. He says, it's really compounded by the fact that Sinon never should have been there in the first place. He was drafted as a young boy in the place of Antinous, Robert Pattinson's delicacy superior suitor, who now vies for the affection of Odysseus' wife.

46:42The young Antinous' short straw was swapped for Sinon's, sending Page's character off to fight in the war instead. Another ruse in which Odysseus is complicit, agreeing that Antinous should stay home to be a companion to his son. Yeah, and the deal is that Antinous, like basically Antinous, sweetens that pot by saying, hey you know i'm going to look after your dad i'm going to pay basically pay you to go in my place so sinon believes that and says okay well i'm going off to war but at least you know my dad is taking care of my family is taking care of yes and then that is not the case so i think that's one of the interesting things about the the afterlife in the poem sinon is one of is a big fat liar and sinon is very much like odysseus himself so he goes to the trojans this is this This comes from Virgil.

47:27This comes from the Aeneid and not from the Odyssey. But he basically goes to the Trojans to tell them this whole story about how Odysseus hates him and has this big grudge against him and his family. And that's why he's been left behind. He had to, in fact, he was going to be executed by the Greeks and he ran away just before he was about to be executed because Odysseus had told all these lies about him. And that's why he's still just outside Troy with this giant horse. So when he says that they've left this bloody horse here and it's like meant as a gift. And they believe him because they're like, well, this guy clearly has no reason to lie to us because he hates the Greeks so much.

48:03He hates Odysseus especially. So he sells the whole thing. He sells the horse to the Trojans and he is knowingly lying to them. And in Dante, he's in the circle of hell reserved for liars. And he's like exhibit A in the circle of hell reserved for liars because he is like one of history's great liars. so it's really interesting that like nolan has reframed him as the most honest character in this entire piece um and then you know and then has him played by by elliot page and gives him that sort of hero role i thought it was lovely um i also think it's interesting he may he meets different people in hades but the whole method of meeting them the whole sacrificing an animal and they have to drink the blood of an animal before they can speak and all that kind of stuff i thought was brilliantly done.

48:52Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Yeah, Hades sequence is great. Oh my God, so good. All right. Timon Singh says, did anyone else want more of an actual monster or dragon from their Scylla? Oh, Graham. Rather than a leech. I thought that was interesting, like, it was more like a, what do you call those little things that stick to the rock pools? Barnacle? Barnacle, that's it. It was like a giant barnacle. Yeah. within the little tentacly things that came out, but much bigger, obviously, than normal. I thought it was very effective. And the first time I watched it, it just came out of nowhere, and I was very, I was not expecting it, and it did make me jump a little bit.

49:33Chris Hewitt:That's a James Gunn beat. I was expecting it, because that's a James Gunn beat. I know this isn't James Gunn's odyssey, but that, we made it, we're safe! And then you're just, in a James Gunn movie, you're waiting, one, two, three, this character's going to die now! And it felt that way in this, but as I said in the first one I don't want to repeat myself too much but I think it's really interesting that all the supernatural shit and Scylla is a big representation of this obviously everything is from Odysseus' POV and his men's POV so you don't get that big monster shot that you would get at the hands of I'm not going to say a lesser filmmaker but a different filmmaker who would want to glorify the creature design and have a look and maybe turn it into a bit more of a scene where they're really having a big old brush with this thing as it is it's just like it's a massive kind of tentacle thing and it's a rumor it's a whisper it's a barely glimpsed creature retreating into the cave and then it's gone the it's the whirlpool that's really interesting to me because that that felt to me like that could have been more of an extended sequence where you see them almost being sucked into its maw well the idea is that it's I think that is one example in the film of Odysseus being crafty so he's been told you either six or everyone Yeah, you either lose everybody if you go near the whirlpool, or you lose six.

50:54And he's like, there's no way, I'm choosing six people. We'll make it through the whirlpool. And he's basically told, fuck no, you won't. You either lose six or you lose everyone. And so that's why he's sitting sort of almost defeated against the mast in that moment. He provokes them to essentially mutiny against him, knowing that that's the way to save all but six of their lives. it's quite yeah that's him being crafty and it's one of the few real moments of that craftiness really coming through the only thing I thought was bad about that sequence is it kind of just looks like you just sail around the whole problem yeah

51:34Chris Hewitt:you don't get the sense that this is the only way through but then again this is a crew that have been blown off course big old bag of wind relentlessly Poseidon's angry with him do you want to go out further into the open sea and you're being told no this is the way we gotta go we trust our dude our dude's not gonna fuck us up I think I'm also right in saying that in those days because of ships weren't very good and navigation was very bad so they did tend to stick very close to shorelines wherever possible I do like that beat after the monster has taken the six sailors Euronokas played incredibly by Humej Patel so good I like that he automatically knows that Odysseus knew what was going to happen and voices that.

52:23He is I think at the start of the film quite a loyal second in command and then as the Odyssey, as things get more and more foobar, he voices more and more frustration and I think that relationship and how it evolves over the course of the film I think is really great. I agree.

52:40Chris Hewitt:What is this? Some kind of Odyssey? Alright, we have many questions on Instagram and we also I have some from Blue Sky on Twitter. So I'll try and get as many as we possibly can. One more obstacle in our odyssey to get you this podcast was that the fucking computer wasn't working for a good 40 minutes before we started recording. So sadly, our time is going to be a little bit more truncated than we would have liked. So I shall shut the fuck up and give you another question. Here is one from Brian Comber 18. Was Pattinson's jaw prosthetic, or is he really that smug and grinny? He just really threw himself into the wall of a conniving, sniveling little prick, didn't he?

53:17Yeah. And he did it very well. Genuinely. Nothing but love. Nothing but love. I mean, like, hated him so much. I love that Tom Holland, who seems like one of the soundest guys in Hollywood, has been saying in interviews, it was really hard not to just punch him some days. You know, this is someone he knows and likes, and it's just like, I just fucking hated him.

53:39Chris Hewitt:Bardwell123, I think it's locked in for at least 12 Oscars. Am I right? Score. I mean that's different this is not nominations this is Oscars oh wait wins yeah I don't think so I don't think it's locked in I think there's a bit too much fantasy to be locked in we don't know everything that's coming out yet yeah I think the big three on score is going to be Ludwig for this Pemberton for Project Hail Mary and whatever Zimmer cooks up for June 3 I think out of those it is going to be this I love as you know Project Hail Mary with all of my heart. But I think this one has more Oscar-iness to it. And I think that will probably push Ludwig over the line.

54:23Chris Hewitt:I'm going to say something that's going to draw sharp and takes a breath. Certainly from this quarter over here. Can you have a quarter when there's only three of us? Anyway, shut up. Don't like the score. Helen! It was Amon who was meant to do a sharp and take a breath. Instead he's just taking off his headphones. He's walking out of the room. He's pummeling me. He's pummeling me. Oh my God. Wow. Yeah, not Lubick's finest moment, I would say. You had a good one? You look murderous right now. I cannot believe you just said that. I don't think it's his finest hour. It's like, would it kill you to have a melody in there, mate?

54:59Wow.

55:00Chris Hewitt:Wow. I'd say this to his long, luscious hair. You could not be more incorrect on this, Christopher. It's a subjective opinion, I'm on. There is no such thing as objective when it comes to this movie. Yeah, but you are wrong. Except now where I'm 100 % right. I think Ludwig incorporating the twang of Odysseus' bow into the skull is a literal and figurative masterstroke. It's so cool. I mean, okay, I did like that. Can I also say the plucking of the bow after he strings it is a thing he does in the poem. Oh my God, the detail, man, the detail. and there is melodies all around the score there's one particular track called Odysseus which is my favourite track on the score when the drums start heating up at around the 3 minute 14 second mark it just goes to another level and that track was great Ithaca is another beautiful beautiful cue the Penelope track is fantastic there's great music great musicality all over this film all over the score.

56:09Chris Hewitt:I am not saying it's not expertly performed. It is, but he has delivered better scores and perhaps recently as well. Now you're just pandering to him. I didn't love the score. I've seen it twice now and I didn't love it either time. I don't think it's his finest hour. I think it's... There you go. I said it. I also love that he does what actually Pemberton did with King Arthur, which is use ancient instruments for it, which I appreciate when people experiment and go to different lengths and try different things with that. And also bronze instruments where possible, which is, again, maybe it's on the nose.

56:46Don't care.

56:47Chris Hewitt:Age of bronze. Okay, so you think, but he's going to get nominated. He's absolutely going to get nominated. If he wins again, we're talking really rare here. To go from Sinners, even Oppenheimer, I won the Oscar. Sinners won the Oscar. Now he might win the Oscar again. and he won the Oscar for the first Black Panther 2. No, the first Black Panther, not the first Black Panther 2. And there's only been one Black Panther 2. I fell right into that one, didn't I? Yeah, he's just, he's cooking like few have ever cooked before in the composer realm. He's an amazing, amazing composer. There's no argument for me.

57:25Chris Hewitt:I just didn't, the score didn't quite connect with me. I thought it was... You're going to say the score for Mandalorian and Grogu was better than the score for this, aren't you? No. Okay, good. But the theme for Mandalorian is better than the score from this. I don't know about that. I refuse to make that choice. Anywho. Yeah, it's pretty great. I played it at my wedding. We've said it recently, but the Shikari track on Mandalorian and Grogu is spectacular. I listened to that the other day and it's just brilliant. It's going to get a lot of technical Oscar nominations, I would imagine. I think Nolan will probably get nominated for Best Director.

58:01Chris Hewitt:Best Screenplay is yet to be seen, of course. I would genuinely, I mean, I think the, honestly, I think the Emily Wilson article may have hurt his chances at best screenplay. I personally would absolutely nominate him for best screenplay just because for the same reason I've been talking about, I like all these little clever nods to the poem without feeling slavish to it, without feeling bound to every detail of it. I love that he brought in so many different little references and little nods to things. and that he was in many ways far more faithful than other people who have attempted to adapt this in the past.

58:37I just think it's a really, really clever, interesting textured work of adaptation and I would love to see him recognized for that.

58:46Chris Hewitt:It's a very, very good adaptation, especially since I really liked the, and again I mentioned this in the last one, but the Hubertus Pasolini version of this called The Return from a couple of years ago with Ray Fiennes and Julia Benocht as Penny Lope. and I... It's just painful. Come on now. Come on now. And that is a full-on two-hour movie that again issues the gods completely and takes two hours to tell basically the story of the last 45 minutes of this movie. So it cuts out the Odyssey. There's no Odyssey in The Return. It's just The Return. But all of that stuff, the fact that Nolan was able to condense it and make nice cuts and I think some very well-intentioned cuts and correct cuts.

59:37Chris Hewitt:It shows it's a really, really good piece of adaptation. I'll know that even more when I reread The Odyssey. I do have the Emily Wilson on my iPhone Kindle which is waiting for me to finish my Carl Hyasson. I've never pronounced that name before. Carl Hyasson? No idea. You've never heard of that name. Carl Hyasson? I've heard of it. I haven't heard it. I'm going to say Carl Hyasson. Let's go with that. Yeah, I'm reading Bad Monkey. Once I'm finished Bad Monkey, then I'll read Bad Horse. Otherwise known as the Odyssey. Question for you, Helen, because one of my... I'm right here. I've read shit too.

1:00:17Chris Hewitt:I've read shit too. Come on. Lay it on me first. Okay, Chris. Lay it on me first, and then we'll bring Helen in. One of my favorite bits of dialogue in the film... Yeah, which film?

1:00:35is when Odysseus is strapped to the boat and the siren scene. Was any of that from the poem?

1:00:44Chris Hewitt:Sorry, Helen, I've got this. Probably. Helen? Thanks, Chris. Probably. I think the idea in the poem is that the sirens tell you the truth. oh is that the idea yeah and that they they will tell you like what happened oh so they'll basically say you're going to take 10 years to get home and you're going to be spending 7 years I think it's the idea is that they will tell him the truth of everything that happened in the Trojan War all the bits that he wasn't there for all the bits that he wondered about they will tell him what like definitively what really went on right so the idea is that it's it's you know they're offering you knowledge they're offering you absolute knowledge and that's the thing that you are tempted by And then what happens if you go over to them?

1:01:28The idea is that you either draw, I know that they're carnivorous in various incarnations, but I don't think it's specified in Homer. But you definitely don't come back, that's for sure. And I thought what was really interesting, they've got that bit of smoke in front of the rock, so you can't really see them properly. But what you can see, there are some shapes that definitely look like women and some shapes that definitely look like seals. Because there is a theory that all these stories of sirens luring sailors to their deaths were actually just seals on rocks making noises that through fog or mist sounded like home.

1:01:59Chris Hewitt:After a long time away, you've no idea how horny those sailors are. Just like, yes, yes, please. But there was that story that went around where Chris Nolan was talking about the Oscars that he had and his son was saying, well, you didn't win one for writing. Sick burn, a soldier of milk. and there's some beautiful dialogue all over this film and I mentioned that one I got the thing here Eulica says what was the song of the simons like and Odysseus says all the things you wanted to be and then all the things you wished you never wished for it was a delicious itch you want to scratch but you find it under the skin and can't reach it like that's a bar no no was cooking I honestly I think it's a really really great screenplay yeah alright let's continue around the theme of Oscars.

1:02:54Chris Hewitt:So we have a couple here from, here's one from Ramona Citrona, who should be nominated for Best Supporting Actor and who should win? And then M. Jones London asks, Best Star in the Film and why is it Samantha Morton? And then Jono McGrath 89 says, does Matt Damon's performance move on to his personal Mount Rushmore? So I think we take all three of those together through the prism of Oscars. Will Matt Damon be nominated, first of all, for Best Actor? Yes. I think probably. I don't think he'll win. And this is not about whether he deserves it or not. I just think it's not the kind of performance that Oscar tends to award.

1:03:33Not showy enough, were you? Not showy enough. Yeah. And I think they underestimate... But Kelly Murphy's not showy in Oppenheimer. I think he's showier than this.

1:03:42Chris Hewitt:You think? Yeah. And I don't mean that in a he overacts or anything like that, but it's just there is more... there are more maybe colors for him to play. I mean, so much of the different colors here, if you like, are action oriented or somewhat to do with, you know, monster scenes or fantasy scenes. And Oscar doesn't like those. Oscar as a voter, as a person. Like the voting body doesn't tend to reward those in the same way. The one sort of caveat to that is that they did give Leonardo DiCaprio credit for going through hell on The Revenant. They did. so that might help him here but at the same time I just I don't think it's that kind of film it doesn't have that texture it felt like there was a lot more than just a revenant attached to that Leo oh yeah that was an overdue narrative exactly the other problem that Matt Damon of course faces in terms of winning he's already won he's already won at the age of 25 and they hated him for it afterwards I think he might I don't know I think if he's going to win it might be for the rip I'm just going to throw it out there he's great in the road it's long overdue Euro trip recognition I think he'll be nominated I don't know he's been nominated before of course for acting Oscars but yeah I don't know that he's going to win best star in the film a while is it Samantha Morton and who should be nominated for best supporting actor slash actress of course and who should win I've read a lot of stuff about John Lucas Ammo being pushed that would be my pick for this for his role as Emeas.

1:05:17Chris Hewitt:He's very, very good in it. He's a 27 %er and he's a 27 %er even in something like this, which is pretty impressive. So yeah, I wouldn't object to that. I think everybody is bringing their A game. Everybody's like, holy shit, it's Christopher Nolan, we love him. We have to act. We have to act. Shit. And I think, as I say, I think Tom Holland has been much maligned. I think Zendaya's good with the very little she has to do. I think Lupita Nyong 'o is incredible with the tiny bit she has to do. I think Samantha Morton is off the charts brilliant in what, two scenes total. I think she is probably the strongest candidate among the women because she hasn't won before which Anne and Charlize have.

1:06:03Chris Hewitt:I don't think Charlize has got a role either that is worthy of recognition. No, I don't think that's true. I think that's absolutely true. And I think Penelope, again, this is very, very, very close to the way she is portrayed in the poem, but she is a kind of a slippery character in the poem it's not even clear and this is something that Emily Wilson talks about in her intro it's not even clear at what moment in the poem she actually recognizes Odysseus for sure there's a couple of bits where you're like does she kind of know by this point I don't think she recognizes him in this until he unfails himself until he twangs that fucking bow and she's like oh yeah only one man can twang that bow like that and that's my husband he's the bow twiner he was struggling with the bow seemingly a little bit and she actually turns away.

1:06:48Yes. And then he like finishes the bow and twinks it. He's like, oh, hold on. Hold on. I call it the Eminem moment of the film. Guess who's back? Back again. Odysseus is back. Bring a friend. There you go. His friend in this case has been Emeas? Yeah, sure. Let's go with that. But yeah, that's the moment where he's like, My husband is back.

1:07:16Chris Hewitt:He's back to bring it all. Oh, you're in trouble now, says Bruce Banner, who's something in this film as well. Yeah. I do... My one small note about the massacre that then follows, which is very, very cool. Okay. Odysseus' bow form. I've got... His bow form. His bow form is... He's not even... It's very... Trust me. Watch the film back. It is very... He's barely, like, it's got to go no distance at all, basically. I will say I have a friend who has made his own longbow. Hi, Sam. Does he string it like that? He was concerned that as soon as he hit even one person with his bow, it would 100 % break.

1:07:59Now, I think this one is probably like, you know, a special bow that's special. So we're just going to let that go. But yeah, he uses it as a cudgel quite a bit. Okay, yeah. What do you make of the fact that he gets stabbed and he's still moving? I mean, obviously he's a beast, but are they taking it a bit beyond? I think it is. He's a beast. He's a boss. Kind of a thing. Yes, I know I'm misquoting the lyrics, but I'm doing it.

1:08:27Chris Hewitt:Did you think, this is something we've discussed on the previous Supporter Special, did you think at any point they were going to kill Odysseus? Isn't that when he's got a few stabby wounds? It did cross my mind because here's the thing. The poem doesn't really have an ending. Bloody Homer. I'll give you that, actually, in this case. So in the poem, he has been told that he has to escape the curse, the lingering curse of Poseidon. He is going to have to take his oar and leave Ithaca and go to a land and then walk inland until he gets so far inland that people are like, what's that on your back?

1:09:09Is it a thresher? And when he gets that far inland, then he's supposed to set up an altar and make a sacrifice. And then he will be free of the curse of Poseidon once he's that far from the sea. And he's told to do that, but he has not done that at the end of the poem. At the end of the poem, he has done the whole massacre and everything. He has gone to also see his father, Laertes, the retired king who lives in the countryside. he's finally revealed himself to him and then they sit down they have a bit of chat about oh all the suitors families are about to want fucking vengeance on you you're in trouble now and he's like yeah that's true and then they all basically go out to meet the suitors families who have come as like an angry mob

1:09:48Chris Hewitt:look thing is and they have to talk them down yeah and so and that's kind of where the poem ends like it doesn't really end there's no and then they lived happily ever after there's no everything's fine now Sailing across the sea, chasing the sun, all of that stuff. Yeah, so the idea that he and Penelope sail off into the West to die slash save some kind of civilization is kind of fine. I did for a very, very brief second think that Odysseus was going to die when he said, like, I'm here to see my beloved Ithaca for the final time. It's like, oh, and then they do the fake out. I was like, okay, you got me, you got me.

1:10:30But there is a scenario where he could have decided, okay, Odysseus can die now because he has nothing left to do, actually. And Telemachus is now at a point where he can rule. So it kind of would have also maybe kind of worked. It just would have felt like a very Pyrrhic victory and then some. I didn't love that they desecrated the temple on the way home. I didn't think that that was something... If you're talking about dishonoring the gods having consequences, then starting a fire in Athena's temple, as they do, is not a great look. so I think that maybe story wise and theme wise wasn't my favorite bit

1:11:04Chris Hewitt:we are sadly running out of time I don't think we're going to get through all of these questions or even a third of these questions or even a sixth of these questions or even a tenth of these questions shut up Chris B B Baragazi I think I'm so sorry if I've mangled your name why no sex now this might have been just a general message to me I don't know I'm just sharing your sex now are you I think I think that's this is a Hollywood thing I don't there is sex not graphic but there is sex in the poem he does absolutely bang both Calypso and Cersei on the way home the way he reveals himself steady to Penelope steady is he knows that their marriage bed is basically carved out of a live olive tree and it's talking about that and then they bang as that's an actual quote from the poem.

1:11:57That's pretty much exact.

1:11:59Chris Hewitt:Homer's like, what rhymes with bang? Bang. Wow. Yeah. So yeah, so there is more sex in the poem and I think it is entirely down to Hollywood being quite prudish. And let's be honest, Nolan being a little bit prudish as well. And after you saw the sex scenes in Oppenheimer, do you really want more from him? I would suggest that no is the answer to that. This is, that's where I was going with it. And going through this film, just thinking about this film, I can't think of any scene that would be bolstered by a sex scene. Like, if it has, if it enhances the story in some way, then go for it. But if it doesn't do that, then I'm good with not having it.

1:12:37If the story is trauma, then I guess it doesn't really help. Yeah. Well, I mean, it does help maybe, but not. Anyway. I presume that there was a lot of sex going on with him and Calypso, but I didn't need to. Oh, yeah. She basically keeps him as a sex slave for seven years and insists on, you know, woohoo, every night. Wow.

1:12:57Chris Hewitt:A lot of sex. A whole lot of sex going on. Fast and furious, you might even say. But we don't get to see any of it. No. Had there been any, it would all have been done practically. So, that's good.

1:13:14Chris Hewitt:Purple Glitter, why did it matter who Penelope would be shacked up with if power passed through the male line? Well, because if she married, they actually discussed this in the scene with her and Pattinson, he's absolutely willing to let Telemachus inherit unless he has kids with Penelope, in which case he will 100 % murder Telemachus so his kids can inherit. So that's why it matters. Yeah, it's such a great scene. Pattinson trying, there's like fake sincerity up until a point where Penelope says, I'm not really vibing with that. and then the whole very sort of it's a whole charade anyway but it falls apart also not for nothing Penelope doesn't want to no yes Ingo Flam I agree with this I always felt sorry for the Cyclops I don't know why I started doing it in that accent Ingo Flam I always felt sorry for the Cyclops and this was no different did you?

1:14:18Chris Hewitt:yes polyphemus my pal my boy my buddy I always pronounce his name correctly he's just a great big lumbering sheepherder he's just going about his business then these fucking poison pills come in and they fuck up his whole shit break into his crib have his cheese what's going on? he does eat two of them for dinner and breakfast every day wouldn't you? it's not no I don't he's a growing boy with healthy appetites again Zeus is law Zeus is law Zeus is law Zeus is what so he should need them in case they just happen to be you shouldn't need anything then should you just in case what if a god is pretending to be a sheep you shouldn't oh come on sheep are fine you shouldn't need people there's a difference between sentient and non-sentient well he doesn't know that yes he does he doesn't how does he he doesn't engage as Odysseus says you know would you would you talk with ants would you talk to the animals I can't remember exactly what he was saying.

1:15:18Chris Hewitt:I think that's Dr. Doolittle, isn't it? Dr. Doolittle comes in. You know, he maybe doesn't recognize them as people. He just sees them as strange creatures who just happen to be very, very tasty. Yeah. Okay. I do feel sorry for him because he's just sitting there. He's fully nude. We don't see any Cyclops schlong, first of all. But he's fully nude. And he's just sitting there by the fire. these poison pills have stabbed him in the fucking eye yeah not nice I mean and he's just sitting there going oh oh oh oh I'm the son of Poseidon and it's so sad he's not really sitting there crying is he he's running after them and throwing rocks at them but whenever he gets his eye stabbed he's very much he's very much he feels very sorry for himself yeah understandably yeah also got an arrow yeah from Odysseus okay I mean yes but in fairness again the eating people thing not great true just because people are smaller than you doesn't mean you should eat them.

1:16:14And I think there's a lesson for us all there.

1:16:17Chris Hewitt:Oh, Helen, but it's okay for Odysseus and his boys to eat animals. I think you've hoished yourself by your own petard there. I think there's some double standards going on. All right, Mr. Vegan. What? That was actually a little bit of a comedic moment for me because they're told, like, you can't eat any meat. The two jokes in the film. And it's almost like these animals are just haunting them. Yeah. And yeah, I think I sent a message to you and a couple others. This film makes it really, it's an example of how hard it is to go full vegan. When there's meat right there, Artya's starving as hell and the meat is just there taunting you.

1:16:55Chris Hewitt:I'll have some kale. Thanks. Yeah, lovely. Do you have any avocado? I'd like a green smoothie, please, from me. My boys and I have been on the scene for quite some time. Is that a flaw in the movie? It's a very serious film. It's a very dour film. It's a very serious of purpose and intent, obviously. In terms of gags, it makes Dune look like airplane. It doesn't have a lot of chuckles. There's one, I think, in the cave where... The fact that you have to go, there's one, and then struggle to remember it, maybe proves my point. There's a couple of lighter moments, but that's about as far as we can go.

1:17:39You probably remember, Helen. when talking about the Cyclops and I think this is like, I think we're past that. Yes.

1:17:47Chris Hewitt:Yeah, have you tried talking to him? It's like, yeah, I think we're past that. That's a joke. Some of the patterns and stuff is funny. Yeah. Give me the shields! Get the shields! But yeah, again, you know, do we want Christopher Nolan doing comedy, which is maybe not his gift? But he's a funny guy. He can be a funny guy, but he's very dry comedy. Yeah. I've also, the Batman Begins and the Dark Knight especially, those films are funnier than what people say. Especially when it comes to some of Lucius Fox's lines in those films. And Alfred's Lamborghini line is funny. And didn't you get the memo and push-ups and there's funny stuff in there.

1:18:27Chris Hewitt:And then when Batman appears and the cops are going, oh, this is going to be fun now. Yeah. Yeah. There's another gag. It's when Sinon is talking to Odysseus and Odysseus is basically saying he's on the beach when they build the Trojan horse. No, not in Hades, on the beach. On the beach, when they're talking about the Trojan horse and he's basically saying, I need you to be the person to stand behind. And Sin is like, oh, will you tell my father of my exploits? And then Odysseus is running away. Sin goes, feel free to add some stuff. Which is, of course, a very modern idiom. And what do you make of that?

1:19:04Chris Hewitt:I asked the other guys on the last one. I'm going to ask you guys as well. what did you make of the approach to the dialogue? It's very modern, of course. And of course, the American accents. What did you make of that? As I did, like we discussed when we discussed the trailer, I did trip over Dad in the trailer. That did kind of like rankle me. But then I read the Wilson translation and... Wilson! And I didn't even notice it in that. It was so sort of baked into everything else. I don't have a problem with it. There is no inherent reason that, you know, ancient Greeks should speak received pronunciation any more than they should speak American English like why not go the full way how has this become the received wisdom exactly so didn't care really again about that particularly yeah fine also fine also fine good excellent just takes a little while to get into it because everybody is using the same accent you connect very very quickly Sam Clements hey of the 90 Minutes or Less podcast says, could Nolan ever make Never Know the Off-Brand Sam a 90-minute movie again?

1:20:14Chris Hewitt:I've been thinking about this because he is someone who's now he's locked into these big budgets, these big event movies. You go to see this movie because it's a Chris Nolan film and there are very, very few directors in the history of movies who have earned that status. It's so good to see it actually. but sometimes I look at him and I go could he make memento today I I don't would he want to because he seems to be playing in this in this realm in this ballpark I think look yeah I think you're 100 % right he is maybe the only person right now or pretty close to who can I'd say that a couple others who can pitch an original idea at this budget level and this running time and an R rating okay and get and get a sign off like Ryan Coogler can do at least two out of those.

1:21:05And I was going to go with Denis as well. But that's not original material. Sure. So, you know, again, I think he is genuinely... You're the one with James Cameron, by the way.

1:21:14Chris Hewitt:Yeah, probably actually. And I genuinely don't know if anyone else can. And I think, therefore, it is very hard to, you know, turn around and limit yourself. I think it might be, and I say this with love and respect, good for him to do a, you know, two people in a room, 90-minute, like tiny one the way the Wiesbillberg sometimes does he'll do a big one and a small one Guillermo del Toro had a one for us one for them kind of a model for a long time I don't think he did I think Guillermo's Guillermo's movies were always intensely personal they just seemed to be one for us one for them but you know the kind of thing I mean I know exactly what you mean but you know Pacific Rim from the outside looking in looks like he's doing a big commercial but it's again it's a very Guillermo it's a very Guillermo but I know exactly what you mean but yeah I think eventually it will come but not for a while there was a quote that Chris Nolan had in the wake of The Odyssey coming out where he was talking about no at some point he's going to be forced to do sort of smaller movies but while he can do big movies he wants to do big movies and that makes sense for a director who has reached a level that he's reached but especially in the wake of the major scene in this film that a lot of people talk about which is the Cersei scene and there's been a renewed desire for Chris Nolan to do a horror movie and if he finds a concept that he likes and he cracks that I can see a Christopher Nolan horror movie being at a lower budget and really really working so yeah I don't think it's coming for a while because I think he's going to be doing sort of big epic things like this for another few years.

1:23:02But I would not be surprised if somewhere down the line we get a smaller movie. And that will be a nice change of pace for him, honestly, to go small after he's been big for so long. When that comes, I think it could really work. Yeah, it is interesting. I mean, because who else would have demanded, quite frankly, a hundred million budget to do Oppenheimer. Like, that didn't feel like a movie that needed to be that expensive. It is mostly people talking in rooms. It is fascinating that he can get that even for something like that. So, yeah, I mean, look, if you can work on an epic scale, work on an epic scale.

1:23:43Whatever it is, you know, he's obviously in bed with Universal. He's got a blank check for life after the amount of money this film has made. Well, probably not, actually, but he's certainly got it for now. What would you like to see him do next? He's kind of done everything at this point. Aside from horror. He's done the superhero thing. He's done the spy thing. He's done space. He's done war. Temerara. I think he should do the Napoleonic War, but with dragons.

1:24:16Chris Hewitt:Ooh, that could work. And we actually designed the dragons in a genetics laboratory and brought them back to life. Because he wanted them all to be practical. Yeah, practical dragons. Unfortunately, incinerated half our cast on the first day, but hey-ho. But on the bright side, now we have dragons. Yes, you can't make an omelette. All right, a couple more. Here's one from, it's Megan Tron. What is your take on the criticism surrounding the version he chose to adapt? Now this is interesting because obviously the, again, received wisdom is that this is an adaptation of the Emily Wilson translation of the poem.

1:25:00Chris Hewitt:But she's not credited. So it's not like written by Christopher Nolan based on the Emily Wilson adaptation of Homer's The Odyssey. It's based on The Odyssey by Homer. Yeah. Or based on Homer's The Odyssey. and he's drawn inspiration from, I presume, dozens of different versions and translations. The Emily Wilson is something that's given him a lot of particular inspiration, but this is not an adaptation, direct adaptation, exclusive adaptation, I should perhaps say, of the Emily Wilson. It isn't at all. I think that's given him sort of permission to loosen up the language and maybe contemporize the language a little bit, simplify the language at times.

1:25:47But I don't, it's not a direct, it's not an adaptation of that translation specifically. That's all in iambic pentameter because she's tried to maintain the poetic form, albeit a different poetic form to the one it was originally written in. But this is a prose work. There is no sense of iambic pentameter here at all. It isn't an adaptation of that. And I think as well, this is a guy who went to boarding school here in the UK, like a paid-for school. And I'm pretty certain he studied one of the older translations there. The one he studied probably starts, Sing O Muse. And so that's the one that he first encountered probably, and that's the one that is still kind of in his bones.

1:26:33Chris Hewitt:Not Travis Scott banging the floor. Not banging the floor. A face! yeah interestingly so I they just I think credit him as bard and the bard in Ithaca is a character called Femius but the one who actually who actually recites the Odyssey or the Iliad in the Odyssey is a bard called Demidocus so I'm inclined to think that's Demidocus but it doesn't really matter I guess because he's just the bard anyway but yeah I don't think it's an adaptation specifically of her and he has talked about how much inspiration he drew from her in interviews, it's not like he's trying to... He's not hiding his leg under a bush.

1:27:10Chris Hewitt:Yeah, hiding that. But at the same time, I don't think it is in any way just an adaptation of one translation. I think he's talked to himself about the fact that he read loads of translations. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's fair to say. And of course, she has quite publicly rounded on the film, criticised it, in quite scathing, excoriating terms. But, as is her right. Absolutely. and here she is now she also agrees with me about Lubick's score by the way anyway don't start with me Hewitt moving on Diona Lunn Evans says I'd love a Nolan ranking alright Christopher Colleen oh boy the Nolan sisters yeah very good yeah very hilarious quickly ran out of I can't love Nolans.

1:28:08Chris Hewitt:We've done a Nolan ranking in the magazine, but this was years and years and years ago, and I'm actually toying with doing another one very, very soon. But, okay, very, very quickly, I'm on, let's do a whole ranking, but is this top five for you? Is this top five Nolans for you? Yes. It is? Yeah. Okay. I go the Prestige one, Inception two. You're going down, you're a psychopath. Who goes down? You go up. you peak at one what are you doing man alright listeners forget that you heard him say that the prestige is his number one Amon take me through your Chris Nolan top five sure from five up to one to create some suspense sure Chris okay okay when you're listening to the top 40 they don't start with number one they don't peak and now at number 40 just saying okay number five yep Batman Begins he certainly does which I think is very underrated in the filmography I agree at no point do all the cops in Gotham run under the city and get trapped number four The Odyssey oh in with a bullet or not a bullet in with a bow twangy bow bang number three yeah The Dark Knight oh why so serious Chris Nolan number two Inception Inception yes and number one The Prestige The Prestige I did not see that coming wow it's been really cool in the wake of this film to see more people giving that film its flowers I've seen The Prestige top a lot of Nolan rankings it is still the darkest of all his films you think?

1:30:00alright there's a lot of dark stuff that happens but I just think the prestige it gets it can somewhat get smarter and cleverer the more you watch it but with Tenet I don't think that movie does enough to meet the audience halfway for me to emotionally engage with it whereas with the prestige it just feels like the more I watch it the more clues hidden in plain sight I realize and the storytelling and the screenplay just gets cleverer and cleverer to me to me it is no one's best film

1:30:32Chris Hewitt:alright Right. Hell's Bells, very, very quickly, because James is outside. I want your top five Chris Nolan films. Feel free to start at number one. Let's build some suspense. Number five. I'm trying. I'm trying. I will say that The Prestige was my number one, but has slipped since I watched it again for A Christopher Nolan Dictionary out next year. Interesting. But I think number... Number five. I know, but I'm having to work backwards from one, am I? Okay. Am I dying? It's very Northern Irish. Yeah. Okay. let's say right and then five is hard I'm not going to say that's not something I'm going to say I'm not even going to say the word just in case you cut it cleverly number five let us say following Oppenheimer Oppenheimer and number four I'm going to go The Dark Knight The Dark Knight number three The Prestige The Prestige number two Batman Begins okay and number one personal favourite The Odyssey wow wow I love the love for Batman Begins which still has my favorite ending to any superhero movie of all time, by the way.

1:31:37What, the Joker card on the roof? Yeah. That entire one-minute scene, which I know verbatim, by the way, is so... I will ever have to. It's so perfect, Chris. Everything about it is phenomenal. Sorry.

1:31:49Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Now, that's a good score. Yeah. Okay. Anyway. Anyway. Listen, he's going to win the Oscar for the most likely... Well done. Anyway, so top five. Top five for me. Top five for me. number five um Happy Guild War 2 um sorry we talked about overall movies just in general wow no I'm kidding top five for me Benny Safdie top five honestly I don't I don't like to do this I don't like to rank movies um do it do it do it alright now I've got to work backwards because I haven't really felt this through so okay that one then that one then probably that one then that one uh I'm not gonna lie to you there's two Batmans in there.

1:32:33Okay.

1:32:34Chris Hewitt:All right. So at five, at five, at five, it is Interstellar. Okay. At four, at four, it's Oppenheimer. Okay. I might be wrong. At three, none of us have said Memento, by the way, I'm not going to say Memento. At three, it's going to be Batman Begins at two it's The Dark Knight and at one it's The Prestige so there you go that is my that's my top five and on well we gotta go we gotta wrap this up this we may there are so many unanswered questions we didn't even get to Twitter we didn't even get to Blue Sky hopefully we've answered most of what you wanted to know about in a bumbling shambling kind of fashion and obviously there was Helen as well so that is it for our the Odyssey Sport Special.

1:33:31Chris Hewitt:Hope you guys enjoyed it. Thank you as ever for subscribing and supporting the podcast. It really, really does mean a lot. And all that remains right now is to say goodbye to my two colleagues of such lethal cunning. Goodbye, Amon Warman. Amazing, with the girls in school. Peace. Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara. Boing. Yes.

1:33:57Chris Hewitt:This podcast just got real sexy, real fast. And it's goodbye from me. I am off to chase the escaping sun. Oh. Great chat from the school as well. Shout out to my boy, Polyphemus. Polyphemus. Polyphemus. Oh, fuck. Penny Lope. Bye.