The Odyssey: The First Reaction

8:28Chris Hewitt:It's because he's tying you so close. You're hewing so close to Odysseus and his men's viewpoint, so you see what they see. so it's not like you get a great big scene of Scylla going oh blind date you don't get her doing anything like that you get to see just oh my god there's some sort of tentacle arm type thing there and then the only shot we really probably get of that is when it's retreating and again it's from their POV it's their sailing away from it going Jesus Christ that was lucky we could have been snapped up I mean it could be POV

8:54John Nugent:but I do genuinely think like he whenever there's something fantastical he tries to tamp it down a little bit he tries to make it grounded and believable because he doesn't want to depart too much from the lived reality of the story. And actually, I think that's one of the reasons why it's so accessible and it works, because he doesn't lean into the mythology of it.

9:10Chris Hewitt:Indeed, because there is a Cyclops, but again, everything in that sequence is from the guys, the men's perspective. And I read somewhere as well, maybe he said it to someone in the interview, maybe even me, that there was a kind of a contraption. I think it was Matt Damon said there was a 60-foot contraption on set. And obviously it's Bill Irwin, isn't it, who plays the Cyclops. So there might be a little bit of mocap going on there possibly but they were in a real cave that apparently did stink of shit and there was something

9:40Nick de Semlyen:that they did have to interact with.

9:42Chris Hewitt:So I love that. I think it's really, really fascinating. I'm not entirely au fait with the Odyssey. I have a very, very vague remembrance of reading it years and years ago. I keep meaning to buy it. You've seen Our Brother Where I Are now. I keep meaning to buy the Emily Wilson version of it, the translation of it. and I will in time for the next one but I'm fascinated by a number of choices that he makes here which is this isn't so much a kind of welcome to the new world of gods of monsters more like just welcome to the new world of monsters because there are gods in and around the edges of this movie but this isn't a clash of the titans type of situation where you actually see the gods and you interact with the gods and the one god quote unquote that we do see which is Athena played by Sadea even towards the end the movie he offers an explanation for why we see her but then you also which means she might not be a god she might be a figment of odysseus post-traumatic stress disorder and uh so he's he's been really really clever with how he portrays all this stuff i think there's some really really fascinating decisions that i'd love to talk to him about but he won't talk spoilers

10:56Nick de Semlyen:I saw someone online upset that he's omitted the bag of wind. So in the original poem, Adis Hughes is at one point given a bag containing all the winds, and he tells his men, don't open the bag, for the love of God, don't open the bag. And of course, one of them is a bellend and opens the bag, and they get blown like 500 miles in the wrong direction. So that was cut. It's interesting, looking at the stuff that he has changed, he apparently considered the game of riddles that you have with the Cyclops, where the Cyclops says, who are you? And he says, I'm no man. My name is no man. And then the Cyclops, when he gets blinded, is going, no man is in here.

11:34Nick de Semlyen:And everyone's like, all the other Cyclopses are like, oh, okay, no problem. So he's cut that.

11:38Chris Hewitt:So there's a sense that Homer didn't do a second draft.

11:40Nick de Semlyen:And basically, it's a bit of a who's on first kind of thing. Yeah. Abbott Costello with the Cyclops

11:47John Nugent:is not really what he was going for.

11:48Nick de Semlyen:Yeah. Yeah. But he apparently considered putting it in and then it didn't work. Which you can imagine. But yeah, they cut the more kind of blatant or more kind of, I don't know, I don't want to say silly about Homer.

12:01John Nugent:It is silly. There is no way, I think, of portraying gods chatting to each other without it being a bit goofy, right? Because in the actual Odyssey, Hermes gets involved, Calypso is a nymph, you know, Circe is a god. All of these things elevate it to the fantastical, whereas him seeing visions of Athena who may be Athena, who may not be Athena, who may be in his mind, that works.

12:22Nick de Semlyen:But there's a lot more than there is in Troy. In the film Troy, that completely cuts because the Iliad is full of gods and magic as well. And so Wolfgang Peterson, basically, his version takes all of that out. Whereas this actually has magic, does have magic in it. It has monsters in it. It does have magic. Commits to it much more. And also, like, Zeus is never seen, but he's felt and he's spoken of. And his, like...

12:43Chris Hewitt:And Poseidon as well, with the seas. Poseidon as well. Poseidon, yeah. But Zeus' lore, I think, is the thing that sort of looms over it. And it's this idea of morality and what happens when you break with that morality. This idea, this sort of golden rule of treating others as you would yourself and welcoming strangers in. This Xenia, I think it's called, isn't it? And the whole film seems to hinge on this idea that if you break that, then the world breaks. In a way, is it for him as important a moment in human history as Oppenheimer creating the bomb? Right. Because I got a lot of overtones with that.

13:24Chris Hewitt:You get the end of the movie. By the way, remind me, I want to talk about the opening title card, A Time of Apparent Magic. We'll come back to that. But I got a lot of overlap between this and Oppenheimer because at the end of the movie, you essentially have Odysseus regretting massively what he's wrought. And he's essentially wrought the destruction of Troy and then the absence of the gods in this could be read as them shunning mankind because mankind is now given into violence and war and the corruption of war. This is a big moment in human evolution. They're standing on the precipice of what we will later become.

14:06Chris Hewitt:and Odysseus seems to recognize that and I feel that the gods have kind of turned their back on mankind as a result.

14:12Nick de Semlyen:I found that really powerful and I think Nolan has teased that out because when you read the poem, I don't think that it's sort of in there, but it's not really on the surface. Anti-war screed. Yeah, and the whole idea that he is responsible for what's happened to his home. You know, the suitors have kind of come about because of this chain reaction of what he has started and he's kind of spoiled the place he loves. I found that stuff fascinating. I think Nolan brought a lot of that stuff. Maybe because he was just off Oppenheimer, like you said. He had those themes in his head. It's a really interesting reading.

14:46They do feel like sibling films in a way, don't they? It's like Matt Damon and become death destroyer of worlds. I found that finale really moving. I think that's where the film really comes into focus. It's my favourite scene, I think. what's going on yeah that speech when he's in front

15:03Nick de Semlyen:of the screen the music the writing the camera it's really slow the intercutting with Troy it's just yeah because I didn't expect it when I first saw it like you kind of think he's going to come back and it's going to be a badass fight and then the film is going to be over and actually that last like 45 minutes slows down a lot and you just get a lot of really interesting dialogue and beautiful um what you know

15:25John Nugent:I was going to say I genuinely wondered if he was going to go full John Wick for the finale genuinely because there's 108 108 suitors. Historically, in the poem, 108 of them. So I did think he was going to go, that was it. Well, that's what happens.

15:38Chris Hewitt:Yeah, well, he does. But also in the most recent version of this tale, The Return, the Hubertas Pasolini movie, starring Ralph Fiennes and Julia Binoche, which I really liked, by the way. I don't know if you guys see it.

15:49Nick de Semlyen:I saw it on the plane on the way to interview Nolan the first time I watched it. And Ralph Fiennes gets naked a lot. I wouldn't recommend watching that on a plane. You have to pause it at an inopportune moment. I had to shield the screen. But yeah, I asked Nolan if he had seen that, and he said he avoided, just as a side note, he said he avoided watching any of the Kirk Douglas one from the 50s, is it? The 60s? Yeah, 50s. 50s. He didn't watch any of that stuff.

16:14Chris Hewitt:Okay. Or Ulysses, the cartoon, or any of that stuff. But that is more John Wickie. And again, that strips gods completely from the narrative. but Ralph Fiennes in the end of that is essentially ye olde John Wick and he goes to town on the suitors in a very very satisfying way does he kick open the door of the hall and go yeah I'm thinking

16:38Nick de Semlyen:I'm back well John Wick

16:40Chris Hewitt:is a telling of the yes I'm back I'm back a little bit

16:43Nick de Semlyen:man whose dog dies and he gets revenge it's true what is John Wick there's a lot of John Wick in this but there is

16:49Chris Hewitt:I mean there's so much Greek mythology and Roman mythology in the John Wick movies it's wild but yeah But you're right, there's a lot of going to town on the suitors, but it is a bit more reflective as well. And it packs... I know, Nick, you had an emotional reaction to it, didn't you,

17:06Nick de Semlyen:the last half hour or so of this movie? I think it's my favorite third act of a Nolan film. I think it's incredible. And just on every level, I found it very emotional. I thought the flashback to Troy was spectacular. It's like saving the... You think you've seen all the Troy stuff? And then some of that camera work and the building falling behind him and everything burning. But I just found it incredibly powerful. It felt like the whole movie kind of made sense. I'd been really enjoying it, but it suddenly all snapped into focus. Because it underscores the fact that the Greeks are the villains of this story.

17:40Well, yeah, there's this thing that he introduces, which I don't think is in the poem, this idea of the sea people.

17:45Nick de Semlyen:I think it's from Egyptian. It's actually from Egypt, I think, that idea. It's like, I think, a theory that's existed in history for a while. because there's a Bronze Age collapse that happens. There's the Greek Dark Ages where civilization in Greece just sort of disappears for a few centuries and nobody quite understands why before it returns to the sort of archaic... There's archaic Greece and then there's ancient Greece, I think. And this is set in archaic Greece. And there's a theory that the sea people attacked and pillaged the archaic Greece and basically caused the whole civilization to end and Nolan has introduced this idea as like oh the sea people are out to get us and then it's revealed that maybe the Ithacans themselves are the sea people and it's just like this is you know they've destroyed the world by removing honour from from warfaring and I just think that's such an interesting way of looking at it it's interesting on a second watch the Trojans are in white so it's like you notice that like actually they look you know sinister when you first see them and then actually like on a second watch you're like like a man catches himself in the mirror is like

18:58John Nugent:am I the bad

18:59Nick de Semlyen:when you've all in black and you can't see my face when you've got a spinal column in gold on the back of your face I mean yeah he looks terrifying

19:06Chris Hewitt:is the Trojan horse kind of a stand in

19:09Nick de Semlyen:for the nuclear bomb in a way oh yeah

19:11Chris Hewitt:100 % yeah

19:13Nick de Semlyen:well because it's it's the thing that changes everything it's the object the you know this cunning thing that he creates and all of his intelligence goes into it But yeah, I mean, it's interesting. He's presented as a wily character. He's more wily, I would say, in the poem, like Odysseus. But yeah, I mean, he creates this thing and it changes everything and you can't put it back in the bottle. It's definitely the atomic bomb. It's interesting. He's wily in places, like the scene in the cave where he comes up with a plan for escaping the Cyclops is pretty smart. But then he's also quite brash and a bit of a dick because he just fires that arrow.

19:51Nick de Semlyen:In Homer's version, they disguise themselves. They go under the sheep, which they kind of do a version of. They don't fully commit to that idea where they're clinging onto the bottom of the sheep. So he's got the hand there, but he's sleeping in the film, whereas I think in the poem, he's awake and he's checking all the sheep underneath it.

20:09John Nugent:In the poem, he doesn't shoot an arrow at the side. Doesn't he insult the Cyclops in some way? He says something, doesn't he?

20:15Nick de Semlyen:Say hello to your mother. Yeah, he says something about his mom

20:17John Nugent:and it all goes a bit... And he invokes Poseidon. He invokes his father. Yeah, he gives his name away as well. He says, I'm Odysseus of Ithaca. I'm not fuck you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember the name. Please don't send your dad after me. I know, I like the fact that, you know, we talk about the absence of gods, but it's we feel the gods by their influence. And the idea that the gods may or may not exist, and the film takes no sides on it. Like the idea that, yeah, it's Poseidon's wrath, or it's just a storm, right? Oh, Zeus is furious, or we're just fucked. And that's, you know, it's a nice way of handling it, because you feel their superstition and their theology be kind of overlaid on the travails that they're dealing with.

20:58Chris Hewitt:You've got a film for the believers, but it also caters for the Richard Dawkins of this world. It does, it does. And I'm sure Richard very much appreciates that.

21:05Nick de Semlyen:Is there a reading where the Cyclops and all that doesn't exist? I don't think so. They're just tripping out?

21:10John Nugent:I think he embraces the fact that monsters are real one way or the other. I think so. Because I don't think there's any real way of saying, do you know what, he's just a bit tall. I think, no. but also he's definitely a monster there is like you could read it as like it's lots of nesting narratives right it's being told by multiple multiple narrators and you could be like ah this is just the Bard's tall tales kind of thing because it is it is being told by the Bard but it's also being told by Odysseus it's a lot of hype men someone's just going kill the Cyclops with the pants

21:46Nick de Semlyen:it's also being told by I'm not a Bard who tells tales of me Can we make that happen? Can we expense that? Probably.

21:54Chris Hewitt:Odysseus would struggle with our travel booking system.

21:58Nick de Semlyen:It would take him about 10 years to get out of time.

22:02Chris Hewitt:But Menelaus, for example, John Bernthal's Menelaus also tells a story to Telemachus, Tom Holland's Telemachus, and then we see his point of view, and that's where we get to see Troy for the first time, and then we get to see Troy really from Odysseus' point of view at the end. And little things like that are really, really fascinating because there's a moment where he's getting onto the boats when they're leaving Troy and I think it might be Irelicus I think it might be Himesh Patel's Irelicus who says you know do you not want to go with Agamemnon and he's like no I've basically had enough of them and yeah and you see why

22:34John Nugent:then at the end

22:35Chris Hewitt:it's like oh he killed MJ that's not good

22:37John Nugent:although we talked about this Helen has an incredibly long-winded theory about who Zendaya actually plays in this film thinks it's Cassandra and I'll let her explain that one But then, Nick, you were saying you thought she was just someone, maybe a slave girl, who was just killed, and that's the guilt that he carries, almost a personification of the rape of Troy and why he feels this terrible guilt. And I was like, when I saw it, I wondered if it was that. And then when you see the sword swing towards her neck and then the statue of Athena get decapitated, I assumed it was like a creative license, almost a personification of the god who is being decapitated.

23:10John Nugent:And I'm sure Nolan will never properly clarify. I think it was like a priestess. she was a priestess of an Athena temple or something like that. Yeah, that is correct. Because you never see her head come off do you see it swings for her head and then you see the statue's head fall. Yes. So there's something I mean it's ambiguous. It's ambiguous. I don't think you're ever

23:28Nick de Semlyen:going to get an answer to that in the same way you won't get one to the end of Inception but I liked the ambiguity but certainly my reading was that she's kind of taking the form of someone he's got guilt over you know massive guilt over.

23:40John Nugent:Which he definitely does and I like that moment as you say when he's by the screen and he reaches out and kind of touches her hand. You know, when he's thinking about Troy. If we're talking about sort of like the ambiguous storytelling, I think there's only one plot point, and we've discussed this, that I genuinely still don't fully understand. And no one I have spoken to, and I mean no one, understands this. And I do think that's kind of a problem because it comes up multiple times. He looks like Will Hunting because he's played by the same guy.

24:05Chris Hewitt:Right, well, that explains him.

24:06John Nugent:That explains him. Sorry. How do you like them apples? It's the whole... It's not your fault. When young Elliot Page and young Robert Pattinson are both up for are they going to go with Odysseus

24:18Nick de Semlyen:to fight in the Trojan War

24:19John Nugent:and they draw lots and there's some chicanery about who's trading lots with who are you paying to do that and it was very unclear to me what was happening there. Initially I thought Arpats, older, younger Arpats was trying to swap lots with young Elliot Page so he didn't have to go to war but then Odysseus intervenes and says no, no, no I'm going to take this guy you're going to look after my family and then he takes Elliot Page and leaves him behind so it's like so did you want to go but couldn't go or did you not want to go

24:46Chris Hewitt:I think he wants to go but couldn't go and that in a way is something that corrupts him over time I think the guilt about that he has I think he has survivor's guilt

24:58John Nugent:but what's the shame because like Page says

25:00Chris Hewitt:he has shame about not going he has shame about not fighting

25:02John Nugent:no no no that's not what I'm talking about I'm saying like Elliot Page says give him this make him take back his shame because Elliot Page is clearly really sore about it but if Elliot Page got to go and wanted to go that doesn't make any sense So there's something more going on here. And I just thought that was quite a muddy bit of storytelling, which wouldn't matter, except it does come up multiple times and at the end as well. So I feel it's clearly important to the story he's trying to tell. And I would really like him to explain it to me.

25:27Nick de Semlyen:Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if you're overcomplicating it. My reading was just that they switched it and he kind of cheated and Elliot Page went. Is that not what happened? I'm not sure it's quite that clear cut.

25:37Chris Hewitt:I thought it was that initially, but then I thought there was another development that made me think, oh no actually Antonius yeah Antonius Antonius no I actually I need to see it again I've only seen it once and that was what two three weeks ago now and Antonius the Arpaz character I thought the kind of twist in that was that he did want to go and actually his younger brother goes instead but you're absolutely right the take back your shame thing would make more sense if he had manipulated the lot somehow or even just blatantly swapped them out and condemned his younger brother to death.

26:11John Nugent:Yeah, and it feels like he's done something wrong because Odysseus literally makes him choke on the fucking lot at the end. Yeah. And he gives him back his

26:19Chris Hewitt:shame, but he's just like, I still don't fully understand what the shame is. So I thought it was a bit more of a kind of just corruption thing that the guilt and the shame he felt that condemning his younger brother to his dad. Is that his younger brother? That he was...

26:30John Nugent:They have a father, don't they? We see their father at one point. Nick, are they... Elliot Page and Arbatz, are they related? Is that his younger brother? Not that I am aware of. I thought they were brothers. I don't know what the fuck is going on this film at all Elliot Page's

26:43Nick de Semlyen:character Sinon is in the Iliad is not in the Odyssey so Nolan has ported that character across the Pattinson character is in the Odyssey I don't think they're related personally I think they're related in the movie right Odysseus is Sinon's cousin oh god but where does the Cyclops fit in but Odysseus is not related to I don't think Odysseus is related to Antinous. Otherwise that's getting extra weird. Yeah. No, I don't, I'm with you James a little bit. I was slightly unclear what was going on at the scene. I kind of need to watch it again. But you kind of get, I mean, it's very obvious that he's a bad guy.

27:20Nick de Semlyen:You kind of get that very quickly and sort of, the movie works whether you get the exact.

27:25Chris Hewitt:But he becomes richer as a bad guy if he's not just the one-dimensional moustache twirling ha ha ha, here's someone who's certainly younger than me. I think they're brothers in the film but I might be completely wrong about that or certainly related. welcome to the Odyssey Sparta special where none of us knows how to pronounce any character's names or indeed what's happened in the film. But I think it becomes richer if indeed there is some genuine emotional turmoil for Antonius. Antonius. Tony. We're up on him, Tony. Let's just call him R-Path. We're going to call him R-Path all the way through.

27:58Chris Hewitt:If he is genuinely in turmoil and that is one of the things that then gradually leads to the corruption of his character, then that's more interesting and just ha ha ha ha ha I've condemned my younger cousin I think that's what Nolan is going for is trying to add some sort of human dimension to what would otherwise be quite a one dimensional character and I think it sort of worked but that he's a coward isn't he I mean Antonus is like

28:24Nick de Semlyen:you see at the end and it's very yeah it reminded me of something the way he kind of stands there while everyone else is fighting and he's like go on get him get him

28:34John Nugent:he's the first to die in the poem I believe it's a bit kind of a worm tongue like he's like go on you grab a spear go go yeah the bit in Two Towers where he's just standing there going get him get him yeah it's pretty funny

28:44Nick de Semlyen:I love that I love that he just doesn't do any fighting and he even refuses to try and string the bow he doesn't even try he's just like no I'm definitely not going to do it so he's like a really interesting villain because he's very like got very low self esteem I feel like

28:56John Nugent:Nolan should have used like spy break by the propeller heads during that sequence I think that would have

29:00Nick de Semlyen:elevated it significantly that wouldn't have taken you out of the movie

29:03Chris Hewitt:it's all there's still time this is why James is our music supervisor.

29:09Nick de Semlyen:We've just got one note on the film, Chris. Could you drop this track in? I really think we're just drop a bit of propeller head. It needs a bit of Rage Against the Machine. Chris, have you seen Blade?

29:18John Nugent:Just a bit of Bigby. Yes. New Order, Confusion. The Pump and a Reconstruction Mix. Let's do it. Chris, we should be in charge of this film. We should be, yeah.

29:27Nick de Semlyen:I shudder to think. You can keep your bleeps, Ludwig. Yeah.

29:31Chris Hewitt:There's worse things out tonight

29:32Nick de Semlyen:than Trojans. Like what? Like me. When they come out the horse, will play Be Here Right Now. Right here, right now. Oh, God. Okay. Where do we pick up? I don't think we do.

29:45Chris Hewitt:I think we go home now. It'll take us 10 years to get home from there.

29:50John Nugent:Another question.

29:50Chris Hewitt:Yes. We didn't help you with the last one. Let's be honest.

29:54John Nugent:But this is an interesting point. So in this, Lupita Nyong 'o plays two roles, right? So she plays the wife of Menelaus, Helen of Troy, and she also plays the wife of Agamemnon. Client and Nestor. Right. But they are historically not twins. They're half-sisters. So I thought that was an interesting choice to have her play dual roles there.

30:10Chris Hewitt:Yeah, he switches as well. Because if you're doing that, you're actually saying,

30:13John Nugent:these are the faces that launch 2 ,000 ships because they're literally two of them and they look exactly the same.

30:18Nick de Semlyen:Yeah, but they're not involved in the same situation. No, they're not. And also they make clear that it wasn't that at all. Like it's a trade route thing. That was just the pretext. You mean like the Phantom Menace? Yes.

30:28John Nugent:Oh my God, it's all coming together. The taxation of trade routes.

30:34Nick de Semlyen:In a time of apparent taxation. As soon as I heard Trade Roots, my mind genuinely didn't go to like, oh, Jar Jar's going to show up any minute now. Who is the Jar Jar of this movie?

30:45Chris Hewitt:The Cyclops? No, the Cyclops isn't enough. There is no Jar Jar energy in this movie at all. I think Telemachus should fall over more often.

30:53Nick de Semlyen:Could the Odyssey have benefited from a Jar Jar? Maybe. If you're Ollie Gibbs, every film benefits from a Jar Jar. Just a Jar Jar. Just one of Adityus' crew who is randomly a Gungan.

31:10John Nugent:After Scylla, someone just turns to Issa and says, there's always a bigger fish.

31:15Nick de Semlyen:Oh, God. Yeah, no, I... I like the change. They're twins now. Yeah, I thought it was very effective. It's not quite... It's almost a jump scare when she turns her face and you've got the scar. That was interesting. It's very understated.

31:33John Nugent:My feeling on that, and I genuinely am making this up, this may not be true, is that there are different versions of the Helen of Troy myth. And one of them, obviously, is that she eloped with Paris and ran away from Menelaus, and Menelaus essentially attacked Troy to bring her back and forced her to come back to him. But then there are other ones which talk about how actually she was kidnapped by Paris and wanted to go back. And I felt like this was to underscore that actually, no, no, no, she did not want to come back, and he forced her to come back.

31:58Nick de Semlyen:And he punished her.

31:59John Nugent:Right.

32:00Nick de Semlyen:And he mutilated her.

32:01John Nugent:And also, Bernthal plays him as a slut, a shitty guy, right? He's not a good guy. Well, there's no warmth between the two of them.

32:07Nick de Semlyen:Yeah, again, it's like the Greeks are not good people. They're not the good guys. Sorry, Greeks. They are not the good guys. I wanted a little bit more from her character, to be honest. I mean, I know she figures more in the Iliad, but it felt a little bit like, I don't know, there was quite a lot... It felt like there was a lot of talk about her character in the run-up. She's only really in a couple of scenes. I do wonder about deleted scenes, because he told us that there are two million feet of film that they shot for this and obviously for IMAX

32:38John Nugent:you can't currently go over three hours. Yeah. You can't.

32:41Nick de Semlyen:Really?

32:42John Nugent:Yeah. But isn't it also you can't go over three minutes in a scene? Like you have to reload the camera every three minutes. That must be wild. There's no one-ers in IMAX.

32:51Chris Hewitt:It's a very short one-er. They're two minutes, 59 seconds left. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Is that true? Apparently, yeah. Wow. Yeah, because the film stock physically is so big. Yeah, I can't get it into the cat into the projector. A limit that you can just fit onto a projector reel. I did not know that. That is, that's pretty wild. Yeah, release the two million feet of film cut. Just completely uncut. Just release the dailies. That's what we want to see. Release the Trojan cut because you know, it's big. Oh no. For our pleasure. You mentioned earlier on the scene where Sinan, the Elliot Page character, says, you know, give him back his shame.

33:35Chris Hewitt:And that is in, I think, one of the freakiest scenes in the entire film. Oh, yeah.

33:40John Nugent:James Remar is the... Yes! Oh, gosh. I love that.

33:44Chris Hewitt:The scene where they go to Hades. So talk me through your take on this scene, please, all three of you, because we talked about the absence of gods and we talked about that, you know, it's a time of apparent magic. Told you we'd go back to it. At the very title card of the movie, a time of apparent magic. and so you know we're seeing these things it could be supernatural we're seeing these things are you know a cyclops and a giant monster that's related to Silla Black and a giant whirlpool and all these things but it could be open to interpretation like the sirens there could be women on those rocks who are singing some sort of song that is so horrific that Odysseus has to lash himself to the mast and so he so he won't go mad or he won't you know he won't be tempted by them and then be lost forever or Calypso might be some sort of you know I guess some sort of witch or something I don't know exactly what's going on they position her almost

34:34John Nugent:just as a lonely woman

34:35Chris Hewitt:as a woman yeah but she has some sort of she drugs him there's some sort of thing going on there with her but the Hades sequence seems to me to be almost unequivocally this is not apparent magic but equally how much of what Odysseus is seeing and hearing is seen and heard by his men yeah that's true he could be ripped

34:56John Nugent:to the tits on shrooms tripping Major Balsack I mean, that section of the film is essentially the flashback of him recounting to Calypso and he's off his tits on lotus flowers. That is true. That whole sequence. So, you know, I think that's kind of like a... It's kind of the personification of his guilt and trauma, isn't it? That's how I read it. It's just him. like just looking back on this vast army of men that he has had to sacrifice but the other men

35:30Nick de Semlyen:they're all leg it like at the end of that scene like they all run away no that's true I mean it's I do like the way the dead sort of just having quite a cordial chat albeit with occasional splashes of blood that was a really interesting detail that they've got to like lick some blood before they can talk and then they're just suddenly like right well that was a good chat right we're going to chase you back to the boat

35:51John Nugent:because that's the spirit of Tiresias, isn't it? The prophet. And he's consulting Tiresias. James Remar. Yeah. And then speaks to Agamemnon.

35:58Nick de Semlyen:And I think in the poem also Achilles as well. That image of James Remar has stuck with me so much. What was that noise? I don't know. I think that was my chair.

36:06John Nugent:It sounded like a small child. I know.

36:08Chris Hewitt:I thought the spirits are with us.

36:10John Nugent:Tiresias! Can you hear us?

36:11Nick de Semlyen:Hang on. Here's some blood. How do we get a load?

36:16Chris Hewitt:You know when I was replaced by Michael Biehn in Aliens.

36:21Nick de Semlyen:that image of James Remar because he never sort of stands up does he he's kind of there and he's got this dark cloak and you can't see his face like that image has really stuck with me it's really really haunting and messed up but there are so many images in this film that are really disturbing yeah it genuinely feels like a horror film at times I know he used the paintings of like Goya as a desperation it's never played

36:45John Nugent:it always comes back to play some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill.

36:52Nick de Semlyen:But yeah, the Hades secret, to be honest, it didn't occur to me that that was not real. Like, I read that as being, he's in Hades. Yeah, yeah.

37:02John Nugent:But everything is ambiguous enough that you could say, you could say. I think, I think, within the, you know, the sort of fictional universe of this film, I read it as everything being real. I think, you know, It's hallucinatory.

37:18Nick de Semlyen:it has like it reminded me of Apocalypse Now but you know when he goes downriver or upriver or whatever in Apocalypse Now and it starts off relatively normal and then it gets more and more crazy and you know maybe the Hades sequence is the equivalent of the Playboy Bunnies like it's at that point the film has just gone completely unhinged and you're

37:35John Nugent:just like why is this happening okay the siren the sirens would be the Playboy Bunnies yes

37:42Nick de Semlyen:I don't know what the Hades sequence would be but yeah it gets more and more intense and that's kind of the most intense sequence of his journey I would say it feels feverish doesn't it it feels like a fever dream and it's there's a strangeness to it and a surrealness to it that I don't think I've seen Nolan do before and they shot it in Iceland I like that instead of coming up with a very artificial kind of river of fire or whatever it just is on a black beach

38:07John Nugent:in Iceland which is really really cool and really spooky

38:10Nick de Semlyen:and you mentioned this

38:11John Nugent:in the review John like the idea that he presents Odysseus with this nice ancient Grecian trolley problem of like, do you sacrifice some men and deal with that guilt or sacrifice everyone and you all just fucking die? Is it Cersei that brings

38:25Nick de Semlyen:that up? Yeah. Yeah. Cersei who mentions that, yeah. Yeah. Also that sequence I mentioned in the review, like a lot of sequences, Odysseus spends quite a lot of time just running away, which I really enjoyed. Run away! Like Monty Python's King Arthur, but it's really interesting just how like fallible he is in this film. He's just like not, he's not always got it together you know and he's constantly on the back foot and

38:52Chris Hewitt:especially when you consider where he is psychologically yeah so we get to we get to obviously see that revelation towards the end of the film but those decisions are immediately after the sacking of Troy so he's immediately on the back foot like he's drenched in guilt although we're not that's not immediately apparent to us it is a time of apparent guilt at the beginning of the movie so when he's making those decisions it's partially motivated by okay we need supplies we need to get to that let's go to that spooky island I'm sure nothing bad will happen there but he's also he's not in his he's not in his right mind at times he's clouded by this guilt and those lead him to make is he deliberately avoiding going straight home?

39:33Nick de Semlyen:because there's that bit where they're like do we want to go the same way as Agamemnon? and he's like no

39:37John Nugent:we'll take the long way around and Calypso says the same thing she was like if you'd really wanted to go home I couldn't have stopped you there was a part of you that just wasn't ready to return and I think you're right there's probably a part of him that is so wracked with guilt he almost can't face his family because of everything that he's done

39:51Chris Hewitt:it's why he doesn't declare himself to be Odysseus when he arrives finally back on Ithaca well that's the advice

39:56John Nugent:he's given as well isn't it get the lay of the land see what's up first but I think there's also

40:00Chris Hewitt:guilt there I think there's also a sense that he doesn't feel like he deserves that name anymore he doesn't deserve that title anymore

40:07John Nugent:because that's all Athena's idea I believe in the poem she's the one who disguises him and says no no no don't walk through the front door you know be a bit subtle about it but obviously Agamemnon came in with you know walking on the petals of roses didn't end well for him it's what Bruce Wayne does in Dark Knight Rises he goes back to Gotham or comes back to Dark Knight Rises

40:24Nick de Semlyen:it does well Nolan literally said that to me in our first interview a bit in the Dark Knight Rises where Bruce Wayne comes back to Gotham and he's in disguise is literally the Odyssey that's where he got that idea from interesting yeah but I love the visuals of how he shoots when he's got his hood and you can't see his face and he's looked like almost he goes

40:39John Nugent:swear to me it had a real it had a real like comic book it did but it genuinely did it there are like comic book things you can see well Agamemnon is absolutely out of the panel of the comic book

40:48Nick de Semlyen:yeah but I thought that his beggar the DC's beggar look was so cool and striking and one of my favourite scenes in the film is when he gets into it with Arpaz and Corey Hawkins at the dinner table and there's that great face off super tense and they will throw stools at him yeah kick him around and yeah but yeah it's terrific stuff do you think people

41:09Chris Hewitt:wouldn't recognise him because Emmaus recognizes the John Leguizamo character does recognize him but you know it's not immediate do you think okay so in the return in the Pasolini Ralph Fiennes Julia Binoche version of this story that scene where he comes back he's disguised as a beggar and he has a conversation with Penelope that scene is played very ambiguously very much like oh she kind of knows that it's him but she does she's not willing to say it at that point I didn't get that from this version of it. I got this genuinely as she doesn't recognize it.

41:46Nick de Semlyen:It's been 20 years.

41:46Chris Hewitt:But would you recognize someone if you didn't see them for 20 years?

41:50John Nugent:They take a certain amount of lives. But I think Greek mythology is full of these things, like misunderstandings of people not recognizing other people. That's a very common device they use. So I think you have to suspend your disbelief a little bit.

42:03Nick de Semlyen:And they don't have the IMDb or Google.

42:04John Nugent:And she doesn't have a phone with pictures of him on,

42:06Nick de Semlyen:so she's like, I've got this carving. That looks a bit like him, doesn't it?

42:10John Nugent:And it has been two decades. And we should mention that she's been waiting for him for two decades. And historically, Odysseus fucks his way around the Ionian Sea on his way back to her. That's true. It's not mentioned in the film, but he spends like a year with Circe. Circe, Calypso. Calypso is basically using him as a sex slave. Right, yeah. Like, he's a proper Flanderer. And I think that's sort of normal in ancient Greece. Yeah, he wanks off Polyphemus at one point. No, absolutely true.

42:39Chris Hewitt:That would be tricky. That's a real two-hander. With both hands. That's an operation in itself.

42:47Nick de Semlyen:How would you do that?

42:48Chris Hewitt:No man could do that.

42:53Chris Hewitt:Anyway, listen, we'll maybe get into that because I want to talk about logistics. Maybe that's in the two million feet of film. It's not film, it's just two million feet of. Anyway. We're doing Homer proud. Before we talk about wanking off a cyclops...

43:10Nick de Semlyen:This doesn't happen in the sight and sound. Odyssey. And it's all the horror for it.

43:16Chris Hewitt:Oh my gosh.

43:20Chris Hewitt:Let's talk, because we only have about 10-15 minutes left. Thank God. Before we're kicked out of here. By the cops. By the gods. By the gods themselves have turned our backs on us. We've angered loose. defy the

43:33Nick de Semlyen:power security

43:34Chris Hewitt:let's talk about Penelope and Telemachus and Hathaway and Tom Holland let's talk about Telemachus as well because he has an interesting storyline in this movie he goes I don't know my dad and then he goes I want to know more about my dad and he goes off to find out more about his dad and then he comes back and then they're like they're trying to kill him but then he meets his dad but he doesn't know it's his dad and then he does know it's his dad and then he fights I don't believe

43:59Nick de Semlyen:that happens in the source material I don't think they meet and team up. No, but he does reveal himself to Telemachus before the end. Right, but yeah, they've added that.

44:09John Nugent:Also, I don't know why he needed Odysseus, because bear in mind he has Mentor with him, who is an excellent mentor. But Mentor is Ryan Hurst. That's the fucking ghost of Sparta. That's Kratos from God of War. I think he had it handled. Oh, he didn't have it handled, did he? He was so inaccurate. Also, in the poem, Mentor is Athena in disguise. Is that right? Oh, okay, I'd forgotten that. I'm pretty sure Athena takes many disguises.

44:32Nick de Semlyen:Well, yeah, because the old man with the beard at the beginning, when the old man comes in right at the beginning, that is Athena in the poem. And as far as we know, it's not. This is so fucking first draft shit. Genuinely.

44:45Chris Hewitt:This is stuff that a good ancient Greek studio executive would have made. Are you saying you have notes for Homer? I've got notes for Homer. Mate, not everyone can be in disguise. she probably recognized her husband even after 20 years Chris I'm a phoenix oh shit okay but that's I mean that's a line in the film right as Telemachus says that's why the phoenix eyes it's you know you want to treat everyone as if they are a god

45:12John Nugent:in case they're a god in disguise yeah it's good advice it's good advice I myself am a god in disguise a pretty shit god but numbers

45:19Nick de Semlyen:but Telemachus is kind of a journey there's kind of a parallel there but you know in a way they're both going around in circles because Telemachus This doesn't read. Telemachus, fuck me. Wow, that's quite forward.

45:32Chris Hewitt:Sorry, I carried away there.

45:34Nick de Semlyen:I'm pronouncing it in the original Spartan fashion. Oh, I see. Okay, good. This is Telemachus. Telemachus. Telemachus.

45:42Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I got it wrong in my interview with Tom Holman and I had it be corrected. You're taken to task by Telemachus.

45:48Nick de Semlyen:So it's interesting because they kind of have dual storylines, D.C. and Telemachus. But Telemachus...

45:55Chris Hewitt:Just fucking say something. Tom Holland.

45:57Nick de Semlyen:Just say Tom Holland.

45:58Chris Hewitt:We've established we can't pronounce any of the names. Call him Tom. If you're struck by the names, I can just about manage Tom Holland. God. So just say that. So tell him a kiss.

46:10Nick de Semlyen:Tom. I didn't have any problem with this until you ruined it. How did I ruin it? You're the one who was mispronouncing it. Sorry, mispronouncing it. Tom. So the Tom Holland storyline is kind of interesting because he doesn't really achieve much on his journey. It's kind of a parallel storyline. It's given quite a lot of time. but he goes off and asks a lot of questions and hears different things and then comes back again but he doesn't really come that close to finding his dad. But that's faithful to the books, right? Yeah, very ineffectual. Is it called the Telemachy? The first five books basically don't have Odysseus.

46:39He doesn't show up

46:40John Nugent:until like a third of the way through. Because this was like 24 volumes originally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is like episodes one to four. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did they drop them one by one

46:50Nick de Semlyen:or did Homer do binge watch? There were weekly releases on Disney+. yeah Homer plus but yeah no I just that's quite interesting yeah that is there in the original material but I don't know is that effective to watch in a film that he doesn't really sort of have agency until I found it quite interesting because you get that one teasing shot of him of Odysseus on the beach that's like the very first shot I think and then he's sort of like this figure that's spoken of you know it felt like they were treating him like no I like that a lot, but in terms of Tom Holland's storyline, in terms of him quite a lot of time spent with him travelling around, but maybe not achieving that much.

47:33John Nugent:Well, the thing with Telemachus, he's... I think he's supposed to be playing a lot younger than he is, right? Because Tom Holland is... He's 60. I was about to say, there's an interesting bit of casting there. Tom Holland is great in this role, but... Does that make sense? I think you can't quite get your head around... No, you're right, it can't be 16, can it? He would have to be... He would have to be 21, wouldn't he? because his dad's been away 20 years. He leaves him as a baby. He's playing like 21, 22. But that's so weird because at that age, you would have thought, because back then you were an adult and you were like fucking 15, weren't you?

48:05Chris Hewitt:Maybe he's 16 in some moments and then he's older in others. Because Tom Holland said in the interview to me, he said, I said, how young are you playing here? He said about 16.

48:16John Nugent:It's like, well then, Odysseus isn't your dad. I don't know what to tell you. We've uncovered a whole conspiracy here.

48:20Chris Hewitt:Turns into an episode of EastEnders. He's not your dad. Telemachus, he's not your fucking dad. They don't say fucking in EastEnders, but they want to.

48:28Nick de Semlyen:Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, do-do-do-do. So, yeah, I'd say he's 21.

48:33Chris Hewitt:Let's go with that. Why?

48:35John Nugent:Because he has to be. He's got literally no evidence to be. Because he looks about one, doesn't he, when they see him playing on the rug. Look, Odysseus is away for 20 years total. So he has to be 21. So his son cannot be 16.

48:45Nick de Semlyen:So his son can't be 16. But he also can't be 21.

48:48John Nugent:What? Why? I don't know.

48:52Nick de Semlyen:I'm finding this

48:53John Nugent:maths quite challenging

48:56Nick de Semlyen:Mathematemax Mathematemax Let's

49:00John Nugent:yeah

49:00Nick de Semlyen:let's say he's a variety of ages He's a variety

49:03John Nugent:he's younger than 30 let's just leave it there

49:05Chris Hewitt:It's not even him it's just Athena in disguise That's true Fucking first base first draft motherfucker

49:11John Nugent:Also at no point when they were trying to save the dog did anyone turn to the suit and say Argos fuck yourself which they absolutely should have done

49:18Nick de Semlyen:Argo or Argo No, it's Argos. It's Argos traditionally, but Nolan has, in the credits, it's spelled Argus, which is an alternative with a U, which is an alternative spelling.

49:28John Nugent:Well, if it was Argos, once he died, they could have just ordered another one, so from collection point C. Yeah.

49:32Nick de Semlyen:Did you guys notice that a puppy got dropped off a cliff to its death? Yes, actually.

49:36John Nugent:That was really fucking harsh. People gasped in the screening I was in.

49:40Nick de Semlyen:Jesus, he took a puppy like, no, fuck him. Chucked him out of the cliff. That was a very, that was a very ancient Greek thing to do, I think. Yeah, apparently.

49:47Chris Hewitt:Life was very cheap. I did notice there was no, no animals were harmed

49:49Nick de Semlyen:during the make of this this movie disclaimer at the end

49:52John Nugent:except for one puppy

49:53Chris Hewitt:one animal was harmed no of course they did not kill any puppies for real but my god those puppies were so cute yes they were so so cute and I know that Nolan said to you that he couldn't make this movie until he was a dog lover he was a dog lover a dog owner sorry dog owner

50:05Nick de Semlyen:yeah he had his first dog Charlie I can't remember what type of dog Charlie is actually but yeah I was expecting a bit more of the dog in the film to be honest based on that but it's effective even though you only see very small glimpses. I mean, the death scene is very quick when you see August shaking his little leg and then dying. Because he dies

50:27John Nugent:and he's been waiting

50:28Nick de Semlyen:for his master. He's been waiting for Odysseus to come back and as soon as he recognizes the dog is the first person to... or the first...

50:37John Nugent:First... Kind of, yeah, because that's the thing that tips off Telemachus that that's his father. Because when August is like, okay, you're back.

50:43Nick de Semlyen:And I think it's very well done and very powerful but yeah, I may be expected a little bit more of a scene because I think in The Return there's much more of a scene with the dog there is yeah you said in your feature didn't it that the code name for this film was Charlie's Tale Charlie's Tale right that's the name of his dog Nolan's dog yeah I like it and Robert Pattinson told me that he didn't know that until I told him and he said he had just finished doing the drama in which he played a character called Charlie so he told us about him he said that was a bit bold so

51:11John Nugent:yeah it's about me yeah but yeah that was that was the code name

51:15Nick de Semlyen:Nolan traditionally names his the code names for his films his children and now it's a dog

51:23John Nugent:did when you spoke to him many times did he talk at all about the American accent choice because it feels and we talked about this a little bit in the review it feels very deliberate as a kind of parable about American imperialism and I wonder whether that was the reason where he was like no no we're not going to do the traditional English accent we're going to make you all American to really kind of underline this this theme?

51:47Nick de Semlyen:No, not, and I don't know if he would say that necessarily. No, I don't think he would either.

51:53John Nugent:It feels like he'll imply it,

51:54Nick de Semlyen:but he'll never come out and say it. His reasoning was that, you know, he wanted Matt Damon, he wanted to do something different. He wanted it to feel very accessible and modern. And so every, you know, there are no, there's no pottery in this. So there's certain things that he was like, no, genuinely, he said to me, like the one rule was like, do we not like pottery? He didn't want that kind of ancient sort of feel to it, that even though it's set in ancient times he wanted it to feel modern so Tupperware rather than hence the microwave dishes but I think yeah he wanted it to feel visceral and I think giving them American accents makes it feel more now than having doing the gladiator way where everyone's talking British accents I think also he cast Matt Damon and he wanted someone very accessible and likeable and then he built the rest of the cast around that I think it's also easier

52:42Chris Hewitt:I think to have British actors do American accents than it is to have a bunch of American actors do British accents. Not that Matt Damon can't do a British accent because he, if I remember right, in the last duel,

52:53Nick de Semlyen:he did a kind of, he did a tricky accent.

52:57Chris Hewitt:It wasn't mid-Atlantic, but it wasn't French either. I think it might have been, I need to go back and revisit that movie, good movie. But I'm sure he's done a British accent, probably British accent in the past. And obviously, people are capable, Charlize Theron, you know, is capable of doing accents, Anne Hathaway is very capable of doing accents, but it's so strange to me that this is one of the things that people bumped up against. And I know in the trailer when we first see Telemachus say, my dad's coming home. You know, it's like that felt weird.

53:23Nick de Semlyen:It's unusual, but that's why he did it. I think his point was like, people wouldn't have sounded British back then. Ancient Greeks wouldn't have sounded... They'd have been speaking

53:32Chris Hewitt:a completely different language. So it doesn't make any less sense.

53:35Nick de Semlyen:It's just our brains are so used to it. We're used to them always having British accents. That's just what Hollywood does. He was like, I'm going to do something different. I kind of respect that. No, I respect it too. I think America makes as much sense as British. And also, you know, you have to remember that the Odyssey was composed as an oral tale, as a poem to be performed to the masses. It was listened to by what presumably quite a lot of illiterate Greek people. So it's mainstream entertainment and it should be, you know, like portrayed as such. I think that's what Nolan wants to do is make it feel like something that everyone can enjoy.

54:13Nick de Semlyen:But I think, to James' point, I think that's genuinely a good point you made about, you know, that it does work for that as well. Like, in the same way you watch Avatar and the bad guys have got American accents and they're going around, you know, doing terrible things, that kind of is deliberate on James Cameron's part. I'm sure that played a part in what Nolan's kind of, you know, making out, that these people are going around the world, invading places and... But if everyone has the same accents, then that point gets somewhat diluted, I would say. But, yeah, maybe.

54:41Chris Hewitt:Maybe it is absolutely what he was going for. we have to wrap this up thankfully Helen who knows how to pronounce these names and knows what's going on will be on the next one which will be much more in depth we're aiming for around two hours or so for that one that'll be out in a couple weeks time because we can't record it until I'm back from Comic Con but we'll figure out a time we'll figure something out but Helen will be on the next one some of these guys will be on the next one as well maybe all of us will be on the next one who the thottick knows but we're doing this before the movie comes out Last thing I want to ask you real quick, before we do get kicked out of here, is A, how do you think this is going to be perceived by regular punters who paid their hard-earned cash for this movie?

55:26Chris Hewitt:Like, we're all blown away by it. But there's something about it as well that it didn't feel as accessible to me as Inception or one of his Batman movies. But then again, Oppenheimer was quite obtuse at times as well, and it made nearly a billion dollars and hoovered up all the Oscars.

55:43Nick de Semlyen:Inception is not that accessible of a film. I watched it again two weeks ago.

55:46Chris Hewitt:It's got layers upon layers upon layers but it's got really great action sequences and visuals.

55:51Nick de Semlyen:Yeah, but it's wrapped up in a genre that people know very well. So it's very, it goes down. It's appealing but it's also dense.

55:58John Nugent:It's making up entire like laws. And could I say, if you haven't seen the video of Zendaya trying to explain Interstellar to her Euphoria co-stars then I suggest you look it up because it's very entertaining. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I found The Odyssey upon, like immediately after coming out, I felt quite overwhelmed. Like there's a lot of movie. There's so much going on there. But I feel like people can handle it. I feel as well like the word of mouth on this film is phenomenally good. There's, you know, it's got, I think it's the best reviewed film of the year so far. It's like 88 on Metacritic or something, which is wild.

56:3698 on Rotten Tomatoes. It's so, it's like the buzz is huge. Christopher Nolan is just an event in himself everyone wants to see the new Christopher Nolan film so I think it's going to be absolutely massive it feels fresh

56:49Nick de Semlyen:which is weird given it's based on the older story ever made but yeah I don't know I think it's one of those films where you can watch it and kind of get everything on a certain level very easily I actually think it's more

57:02John Nugent:it's not hugely plotty is it?

57:04Nick de Semlyen:no and it's very obvious like you know you go on the surface you can go oh these are the good guys and these are the villains but then you can watch it the second time and go actually is that right or have I got it the wrong way around and actually I think it's going to be really rewatchable because I'm looking forward to seeing it a third time already but I think there's actually loads and loads of things to like drill into and think about so yeah I think it's going to be very rewatchable I wouldn't have thought

57:28John Nugent:that it would do gangbusters but then I would have sworn blind that Oppenheimer wouldn't either but then Oppenheimer was part of a cultural event with Barbie which I think really worked in its favour will this do as much money as that? my gut says no because it is long and oppressive and dour and bleak and you know huge I'll be also interested to see how it plays out on a non-IMAC screen I'm sure it's still incredible looking but I don't think you'll have that awe and that grandeur that you get on IMACs

57:55Nick de Semlyen:You said to me when you came out that you thought it was dour I don't think it is dour I think that you've much less than Oppenheimer or Tenet you've got a romance between you know you've got a love story at the heart of it and I think there's actually a lot of warmth in this film and I think he's a likeable character. I think it's a lot more accessible than his last couple, I would say. Interesting. Would you say it's dour?

58:17Chris Hewitt:I think visually it can feel a little bit oppressive. I'm not sure I would say the word dour. I found it, I mean I was absolutely at times just stunned by what I was saying in terms of the fact that we know he doesn't like CG fuckathons. He's not deploying the green screens, as you said, nary a green screen to be found. And I was just like, oh, they're actually on the sea. They're actually doing a lot of this stuff for real. And at times I was just like, I cannot believe the scale of this. This is absolutely incredible. I really, really liked the film. I came out kind of shaken by it. But I don't know where it sits in my Nolan top five.

58:55Chris Hewitt:I'm not sure if it's in my Nolan top five.

58:57Nick de Semlyen:It's in my top five, 100%. I was surprised how much of a happy ending it had because Oppenheimer does not have a happy... A lot of his films don't really have a happy ending. Or they might seem like they're happy, but they're actually quite sad. But I was surprised. You know, Matt Damon almost told me, he stopped himself during our last interview and he was like, he almost told me something about the Ithaca stuff and then he went, oh, I'm not going to stop. And I actually genuinely went in thinking he was going to die. They were going to kill the DC stuff.

59:19Chris Hewitt:I had that feeling towards the end as well.

59:21Nick de Semlyen:And then the way it actually ends is like, as upbeat as you could have, certainly much more than Oppenheimer.

59:28John Nugent:Helen says that's quite faithful to the episode.

59:31Nick de Semlyen:Yeah, because I wondered if they might change it and make it more, I wondered if they might have changed it and made it more downbeat. Do they sail off to the west in the poem? Into the west. To the escaping, off to the escaping sun. Yeah, with Gandalf. They've gone to the undying lands. Yes, Bilbo's in the boat. Made me think of Return of the King. Something about that ending made me think of Return of the King. I think Tom Holland comes out with his sort of gold head thing. His little circle thing.

59:58John Nugent:There was something a bit end of Return of the King-y of that.

1:00:01Nick de Semlyen:My friends, I bowed to know one. I genuinely think you come out of that and you feel on a bit of a high. Like it's not a downer of an ending or even like Inception where you come out going, ooh, I need to process that. You come out.

1:00:13John Nugent:Yeah, I think it's a lot of his films, especially Interstellar and Inception, you come out and you're just trying to wrap your head around what happened and it kind of haunts you. The ending of this doesn't haunt you but it feels like after the literal odyssey and the ordeal of him getting home, it's very satisfying to see it finish that way. So actually, I think it works brilliantly.

1:00:29Chris Hewitt:Yeah, absolutely. I hope he gets a new puppy as well.

1:00:32John Nugent:Yeah, so do I.

1:00:33Chris Hewitt:Yeah.

1:00:33John Nugent:Like John Wick. and not one that is immediately punted off the nearest cliff. Do you think if his first dog is called Argos, will his second dog be called Sainsbury's? Because they've mostly moved into... That's quite a niche joke, John.

1:00:47Chris Hewitt:It's not niche. Sainsbury's and Argos are huge. What are you talking about? Major retailer, actually. He's got lots of nectar points. Wow. Yeah. On that note. On that note. All right. So there will be another one coming up in a couple of weeks' time. If you have any questions for the team, do send them in to us and we will take care of those. But all that remains right now is for me to say goodbye on this, the first of our The Odyssey supporter specials to my three colleagues of such lethal culling, all of whom are in the process of being turned into pigs. Nick the Semelian. Back into my disguises.

1:01:22Chris Hewitt:John Nugent. Goodbye. And James Dyer. See you next time. Oh, lovely. Ah, Graham. And it's goodbye from me. I am off to get Homer and make him write a second draft, you lazy motherfucker. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye.