In short
Spoiler special reviewing Marvel Studios’ The Punisher: One Last Kill, focusing on Frank Castle’s extreme violence, PTSD-like hallucinations, and whether the MCU’s most violent Punisher story fits tonally and in timeline with Daredevil.
Guests (backgrounds)
Dr. Christopher Hewitt (host). Dr. Helen O’Hara, Dr. Amon Warman, Professor James Dyer (clinical psychologists/professor). They discuss the character clinically and narratively.
Key claims
Frank Castle is “fully wackadoodle,” deeply traumatized, and not okay; the special is the MCU’s most violent to date (with “corridor rampage” comparisons to Daredevil). Direction by Rinaldo Marcus Green is praised; John Bernthal’s performance is singled out as terrifying and emotionally precise. Violence is framed as catharsis that ultimately shifts from suicidal despair toward protecting others (though ending choices raise questions).
Notable examples
Frank walking to family gravestones; finance erupting around him; pencil kill; hallucinated Marines moving by windows; Karen Page appearing at 6:47pm; cemetery scene with Frank’s daughter; “fuse lit” door-kick sequence; Little Sicily as a no-go zone for cops.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Frank Castle's Mental State
0:46 to 2:47
Discussion on Frank Castle's mental health and the violence in the MCU.
“I'm joined by three clinical psychologists to discuss that question with me.”
The Nature of Violence in The Punisher
2:47 to 4:49
Examination of the extreme violence and action sequences in the special.
“But I have to say, it prompted the question as I was watching it.”
Direction and Cinematic Choices
4:49 to 7:12
Analysis of the direction and visual storytelling in The Punisher.
“But it's also, it's violence on two levels, isn't it?”
Character Exploration: Frank Castle
7:12 to 10:40
Discussion on Frank Castle's character development and psychological depth.
“and I agree with some of those quibbles.”
Controversial Actions and Moral Questions
10:40 to 14:00
Debate over the moral implications of Frank Castle's actions in the special.
“That's just broken Frank Castle suffering from, you know, veteran trauma, PTSD, all this and he's, I think he's just preparing himself for that bullet in the head and this is what it takes to turn around.”
The Punisher's Purpose and Morality
14:00 to 15:00
Exploration of the Punisher's mindset and motivations during violent acts.
“It's not necessarily the most healthy outcome, but it is healthier than where we see him at the very beginning of this one-off.”
Timeline Analysis of the MCU
15:01 to 16:50
Discussion on where this story fits within the broader MCU timeline.
“basically a fugitive wanted for multiple murders.”
Frank Castle's Downward Spiral
16:51 to 20:00
Insights into Frank Castle's mental state and his struggle with his past.
“I think we can chart the timeline by his facial hair.”
Hallucinations and Their Significance
20:01 to 21:40
Analysis of Frank's hallucinations and their impact on his character development.
“which no longer contains his wife and child.”
Karen Page's Role in Frank's Journey
21:41 to 23:20
Exploration of Karen Page's influence on Frank and their shared history.
“I think they bled into each other a little bit.”
Show all 20 chapters
John Bernthal's Performance
23:21 to 27:10
A deep dive into John Bernthal's portrayal of the Punisher and its effectiveness.
“But yeah, no, I enjoyed the hallucinations.”
Visual Effects and Realism in Action Scenes
27:11 to 28:01
Critique of the visual effects and realism of action sequences in the show.
“Our legs are absolutely on fire this podcast.”
Analyzing The Kratos vs. Diddy Kong Scene
28:01 to 29:08
Discussion on the visual effects and practical effects in the fight scene.
“I think it's the frame rate and the face replacement.”
Character Relationships in The Punisher
29:09 to 30:28
Exploring character dynamics, particularly focusing on Bubbles and the bodega family.
Discussion on MCU One-Shots
30:29 to 32:18
Exploring the significance and content of Marvel's early one-shots.
“This was for Item 47 now, I remember this.”
The Punisher's Characterization and Future
32:19 to 36:18
Delving into the characterization of Frank Castle and predictions for his future in the MCU.
“Oh, I think there's been a week cut there.”
Violence and its Consequences in The Punisher
36:19 to 42:00
A deep dive into the themes of violence and trauma in The Punisher series.
“I think pretending that she's passed and giving her name deliberately wrong all the way through is that's me level humor.”
The Shift in The Punisher's Narrative
42:00 to 43:50
Discussing the character's evolution from personal revenge to broader vigilantism.
“But I think he was seeing how intimidating he could be.”
The Potential of One-Shots in the MCU
43:50 to 45:50
Exploring the idea of using one-shot specials to revisit characters in the MCU.
“You could say it's, you know, her killing him.”
Humorous Takes on Superman and The Punisher
45:50 to 48:35
Engaging in light-hearted banter about Superman's shaving methods and related antics.
“Because some of these shows, you feel like, I love this character, but I'm not sure this series is great.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Chris Hewitt:Bangal, bangal, bangal, bangal, bangal.
0:30Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
0:35Chris Hewitt:Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Christopher Hewitt, and welcome to the latest installment of the hit podcast, Is Frank Castle OK? I'm joined by three clinical psychologists to discuss that question with me. Dr. Helen O 'Hara. Hello. Hi. Hi. Yeah. Hi. Dr. Amon Warman. Hello. Hello. And Professor James Dyer. I'm delighted to be here. Delighted to have you all here. Now, let's discuss how unwell would you say Frank Castle is? Yeah, I'd say he's fully wackadoodle. Fully wackadoodle. Now, I don't want to blind people with clinical speech like that. That's from a textbook, fully wackadoodle. But he is not with us right now, is he?
1:18I mean, both literally and figuratively. Yes. He is not present.
1:23Chris Hewitt:Not present. I should say all three of you are hallucinations. that you are not actually here either, and neither am I, which is so fucking weird. Anyway, hello, Pod. I'm Chris Hewitt. Wow. Welcome to this spoiler special for The Punisher. One last kill, joined by James. Hello, James. Yeah, hello, James. Professor James. Spoiler. Spoiler. The title is misleading. Is it misleading? We'll get onto that in a second. One hundred last kills, maybe? The last thousand kills of this afternoon is a more appropriate title. Helen, James, and Amon are all here to discuss this latest Marvel Studios special presentation.
2:05Chris Hewitt:I wish they'd bring back the one-shots. I really love those things. But I guess this kind of is. This is technically the third Marvel Studios special presentation following cold on the heels of the Guardians of the Galaxy holiday special, of course, directed by James Gunn, and Werewolf by Night by Michael Cicchino, which debuted roughly, what, two years ago? And now here we have The Punisher One Last Kill, co-written by John Bernthal, a.k.a. Frank Castle, a.k.a. The Punisher, and Rinaldo Marcus Green, who also directed. And this is 50 minutes of really interesting MCU content, folks. But I have to say, it prompted the question as I was watching it.
2:50Chris Hewitt:We know that Frank Castle isn't okay, but more than anything in the MCU, this really prompted me to ask the question, is Frank Castle okay? And I'm on the answer is fuck no. He's really not. He's really, really not. This is the most violent thing the MCU has done. Oh, but no question. Like I think the only thing, maybe the previous number one spot in the MCU violence was Kingpin crushing that man's head like a grape. I think Frank holds the previous record for that corridor rampage in season 2 of Daredevil which is yeah but that wasn't sort of MCU proper at that time I'm talking about sort of Disney plus MCU oh I see okay we're fudging it okay I got you some of the kills in this were disturbing the one last kills?
3:40Chris Hewitt:the penultimate kill? the anti-penultimate kill? there's a kill with a pen that will live long in a memory. Kill the guy with a pencil. Who does that? He can make this pencil disappear. He can see a magic trick. Well, okay, how would you rank them? So you've got John Wick. This isn't where I wanted to start, but okay. In how to murder people with stationery. You've got John Wick. Jason Bourne. Jason Bourne. You have the Joker in The Dark Knight. Actually, the best person killing with pencils is Hamlet, who asked the question, to be or not to be. so only a psychopath would write with anything other than an HB so clearly that's accurate I know but Hamlet's he's an idiot he's a maverick he's a maverick that's far too soft this is extraordinarily violent Jimbo we'll get to general reactions about the one shot I'm calling it a one shot in just a second but yeah my god I'm inured to violence I grew up in Northern Ireland in the 1980s but But even this made me go, oof, more than once.
4:46It reminded me of, this is Marvel's The Raid. Oh, very much so, yeah. But it's also, it's violence on two levels, isn't it? You've got incredibly gory, Wick-esque kills. But you've also got acts of incredibly shocking, visceral violence, like the attack at the beginning, which isn't gory, but I would say is definitely the most upsetting thing in the entire show, film, one-off dramatic event. What are we calling this? Special. Let's call it a special.
5:07Chris Hewitt:That's got one shot. Let's call it one shot. Yeah, one shot, one kill. One shot, one kill. So, yeah, we'll get into it. We'll get into the violence and the gnarliness and the grittiness of it in a second. But let's talk about it in general terms and also how it fits into the MCU. And also, you know, I love the fact that we're going to see this character next in Spider-Man's Brand New Day, where he's not going to be effing and jeffing and stabbing people with pens and pencils and all sorts. But anyway, Hells Bell's reaction to this? I enjoyed the fight scenes a lot. I thought they were incredibly well put together.
5:45Stunt work was incredible.
5:46Chris Hewitt:Jude Poyer, who works with Gareth Evans on his most recent movies, and Gangs of London, first season of Gangs of London, was the second unit director and stunt coordinator for this. That explains a lot of how it felt then. Yeah. Because it had that feeling about it, yeah. I think that really worked for me, even though it's wild amounts of violence for the MCU. and wild amounts of violence for a character who does not immediately go to prison, if I'm honest. I do think, though, that there were some tonal issues with this, not least because, yes, as you say, we're going to next see him in Spider-Man.
6:22And this guy should not be allowed near impressionable teenage boys. Like, that is just like a no-no.
6:27Chris Hewitt:Spider-Man's now in his early 40s, so it's fine. But I think, so that's weird, but also just the level of dysfunction that he has when we meet him is a significant step up from where we've seen him before. So I think I maybe would have just liked a bit more running time to sort of explain how we got there and how we get out of there again. Because I think the idea that men would rather kill a whole bunch of dudes than go to therapy is really taken to extremes in this one shot. And it does feel quite jarring, almost tonally to me, in terms of the wider story. As a one shot on its own of a guy who is totally broken, that's a bit more successful, I guess.
7:09Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I think it was pretty successful overall. But I understand those quibbles and I agree with some of those quibbles. Amon, I think this is actually one of the most impressive pieces of direction in the MCU from Rinaldo Marcus Green. There are some really, really standout moments visually. There's that great wonder where Frank is walking to, if I remember rightly, I saw it yesterday, he's only 50 minutes long, I shouldn't have memory problems in this. He's walking to his family's gravestones to take his own life. And there's that great wonder where finance is erupting all around him in this lawless little Sicily.
7:46Chris Hewitt:Hey, little Sicily neighborhood of New York. And it's just a really, really good, well-directed wonder. And there's really, really impressive moments in it. But did you concur overall? You wrote the review for this, didn't you? I did write the review. I went with four in the end. I sent you a message. I was dilly-dallying between three and four. I was in between I decided to round up rather than round down and I think I'm mostly okay with that choice John Bernthal is just incredible in this role I think we need to put him in there Robert Downey Jr. Chris Evans Charlie Cox Vincent did not feel a conversation in terms of perfect comic book castings There is a bit it's near the end when he's when he's got that guy up against the lamppost the real shithead dog murderer and he's just staring him down from about six inches away and his eyes are totally dead.
8:41Totally dead. And it is real scary. And I don't usually get scared by John Bernthal. I'm usually busy thinking other thoughts. That was really, really sad. Helen has convocated feelings about that scene. Stab me and punish us.
8:54Chris Hewitt:Stab me. Punish me, Daddy. Punish me. Oh, boy. Well, on the subject of John Bernthal, can we just give some flowers to that beautiful, beautiful beard? Because my goodness. He gives good beard. He does give good beard. He's just got great hair generally. There's a lot of it. You know, it's very fulsome. Could we say he's having a good week or a couple of weeks, let's say, because he dropped this, which he's co-written, and he dropped that episode of The Bear, Gary, which he co-wrote as well. Does he start putting a little bit of a pencil in that? Do you know what? It's totally very similar to this.
9:25Generally, it's not as far away as I thought it was going to be. One's to take the gun, one's to take the cannoli.
9:30Chris Hewitt:He is, I think, very good. He is, I think, very, very interested in male violence and male trauma. and psychological torment. And I think it's one of the reasons why he's really, really drawn to this character. I was on set of the first season of The Punisher and spoke to him back then, weirdly enough, for a scene in which he was paired with Epimoss Bacharach, who was microchip in that first season of The Punisher. But it sounds ridiculous, but there are parallels between Castle and Mikey from The Bear because they're both PTSD. They're both in a downward suicidal spiral. And they're both wrestling with demons that they can never truly get on top of.
10:08And all they see is darkness. And I think when we meet him here, I love this as a kind of, I mean, it sounds ridiculous to call something that has no dialogue or, you know, kind of a character study. It's a study in violence. But I like the idea that we join him at the end of a very dark arc. Like he's completed his mission. He's done what he set out to do. And he was essentially postponing the inevitable. Like death was always his goal. But he's done what he needed to do. And now he's like, I'm done. It's time to finish it. Like this is it. And he has no purpose. and obviously the Punisher punishes criminals and there's crime going on all around him but he's done.
10:40The Punisher is no more. That's just broken Frank Castle suffering from, you know, veteran trauma, PTSD, all this and he's, I think he's just preparing himself for that bullet in the head and this is what it takes to turn around. Obviously, it's entertaining to me that Mar Nocky or whatever her name is, is the one who ultimately brings the Punisher back because he'd gone, the Punisher was finished and she essentially resurrected him. Those opening scenes of him walking through the streets and there's just like crime and shit all around. And he's like, I need a coffee, whatever. It genuinely reminded me of nothing more than Bo is Afraid, that Ari Aster madness from a couple of years ago where the streets scenes are objectively insane.
11:22Like they make no sense. And there were times in this where I was kind of wondering, is this real? Like, and if I were him, I'd be slightly worried. I've been having hallucinations now for days, weeks, months. we don't know, a while. And now I see a whole bunch of people coming to my building to kill me. Are these people real? Or am I still completely wackadoodle? Yeah. Anyway. I did think, is this all happening in his mind for a second watching that scene? So, agreed. But yeah, it's a really great one. And then to focus it and bring it back to Castle and just this buzzing sound. Like the chaos around him is nothing compared to the chaos that's going on in his own head, which is just really good visual storytelling.
12:10Chris Hewitt:It's such an interesting... Jim, did you like it? I did. I liked it a lot, actually. Rinaldo Marcus Green directed him in We Own the City, which is really good if you haven't seen it. Yeah, he's terrifying in that as well. But not quite this terrifying. But the action in this, I mean, we say the rape, but some of it, it's properly well choreographed, lots of single takes. I love the violence in this. It was symphonic. and, you know, obviously we can call him Whackadoodle as much as we'd like. You know, you could argue that he's engaging in healthy catharsis to deal with his destructive thoughts.
12:42I don't think that really qualifies as healthy catharsis. Really? No, no, no. Catharsis I will give you. Okay. Well, I should say, actually, Amon, before we went in, I did kind of want to say, Amon, obviously, now, he does kill quite a few people in this. Are you okay? Because, you know, if you were expecting to buy people milkshakes, that's not what this was. his name is the Punisher his name is not Batman go forth and do damage
13:06Chris Hewitt:he's the Punisher he's not the killer he doesn't have to kill these people he can punish them in other ways yeah a light spanking now we're getting back to Helen Helen I saw your eyes drift away there I saw stop it I think Helen passed out for a second there are you alright I think the Punisher is one of the few characters who violence as catharsis works for like it makes sense that he will come to some big realizations as he's knee-deep in carnage, as he does at the end of this, I was going to call it episode there, one shot. So, yeah, for Punisher, I think violence works. It does. I did have, I get that he ends this one shot in a sort of healthier place than where we started in the sense that he's decided to, you know, try and protect other people rather than just killing himself.
13:59And he has purpose again. He has a purpose. It's not necessarily the most healthy outcome, but it is healthier than where we see him at the very beginning of this one-off. I understand that. However, he then straight up guns a guy down in the street in broad daylight in the back. And I do have questions about that as a, I don't know, way of working going forward. And that has not always been the way that the Punisher was. Sorry, I just want to say, I thought that was quite interesting because obviously the way he wrote this, they were thinking, if I'm going to end this by shooting an unarmed man who's on the floor and killing him dead, we need to make sure...
14:41Oh, he's the worst guy. He's the absolute worst. And they're thinking, how can we do this? Let's get him to get a cute little dog and throw it under a bus because no court in the world will now convict him for murdering this fool. And he's absolutely right. Yeah. I guess, I hope he is. Or he'll need a really good lawyer. and the last one I know is in prison. I mean, he's already basically a fugitive wanted for multiple murders. So at this point, I guess he's like, eh.
15:05Chris Hewitt:Okay, so, all right. So let's talk about timeline. Where do you think this takes place in the timeline of the MCU? My understanding is it's supposed to be concurrent with Daredevil season two. Yeah, it's supposed to be obviously a different part of New York and just not watching the news much. Because there's a lot of civil unrest, are we supposed to think that that's connected to all the Kingpin stuff or is it just, hey, it's New York? So do you think this is the massacre that basically allowed Kingpin to push through his draconian measures and a curfew on New York City. Still can't get over that.
15:39Without opposition? I don't know. I kind of, weirdly in my head, I see this as kind of, it roughly happens concurrently, but realistically, it's kind of hand wave, hand wave. Don't worry about it. The lines don't blur. And end of sort of season two. It's tricky also because obviously you've got what this one-shot focus is on, but you've also had Frank presumably spending weeks, months slaughtering the entire Nucci family. Has that been happening between Born Again Season 1? So this was my question. What's the timeline on the Noki people? Nucci. Nucci, for the love of God. No, I've had enough pasta and it's fine.
16:18Even though it's potato. But look, genuinely, I got the impression that this is something that he'd completed, like not yesterday, but relatively recently, but a little while back. And it's taken her a while to catch up to him and he's been in this kind of final sort of death throes of his downward spiral. Yeah, his death spiral has been going on for a little while and he's just reaching the point of it. The timeline I think is interesting
16:41Chris Hewitt:because I think this could take place at any point. It could. In The Punisher's story. So this could be the origin story of The Punisher in a way. I think we, as all things, as is the grammar of television, I think we can chart the timeline by his facial hair. So at what point is he clean-shaven? where does this beard because this is this magnificent facial fuzz is not the kind of thing you whip up overnight it takes time and love and beard oil it's a great big bushy beard where's Frank Cassie getting beard oil anyway he uses gun oil he uses gun oil yeah absolutely uses gun oil but in terms of timeline obviously he hallucinates Karen Page so this is post him knowing Karen him knowing Matt Murdock I'm not entirely sure that it And I imagine John Bernthal doesn't give a shit, really, about tying into the wider MCU.
17:31Chris Hewitt:And probably rightly so. But I'm not sure that this tracks in terms of what happens at the end of Daredevil Born Again Season 1, where he escapes from the AVTF, who are a militia, essentially, who are modeled on him. And he's appalled by these guys. And he's been actively killing them left, right, and center. And then he stops Blatt. he doesn't get involved in what happens after that and then goes off to Little Sicily to hunt down the Nuccis because he fancies some potato pasta clearly James indeed sadly it doesn't make a lot of sense to me just in terms of the character and his motivations it doesn't feel like he would have left that alone yeah but he could have killed them before Daredevil season 1 I feel so Born Again season 1 so you think this is before Daredevil Born Again season 1 no no no I think he killed the Nuccis before Daredevil season 1 yeah that doesn't mean this is before Daredevil but even then that doesn't make sense.
18:23Chris Hewitt:So it doesn't make sense that he would escape from the AVTF at the end of Born Again Season 1 and then just what? Go to Little Sicily and hole up in a... Well, he's lying low. So he's left Hell's Kitchen. He's gone to a different part of New York and he's wearing a hoodie so no one knows who he is. No one will see him now. You wear a hoodie, you're invisible. He has more hair than he did when they last saw him. A hoodie and a beard. Totally invisible. But I think just from a Punisher point of view, if the new cheese are the people he's gunning for, he's not going to kick that down the road. That's his number one priority.
18:53he does that can you really again though
18:55Chris Hewitt:you're right about the timeline thing you're right about I think the Nucci's he didn't kill them all at once it maybe took him a little while to kill them because we see the Nucci's restaurant in its heyday and then we see it boarded up and shuttered and abandoned for a long time yeah so I guess it must have actually been quite a while ago so not recent at all okay clearly we don't have an interview with Ronaldo Marcus Green or John Bernthal because we could ask them these questions I'd love to ask John Bernthal excuse me John Bernthal do you mind answering a few technical timeline questions about Marvel Cinematic Universe, no, hello, okay.
19:25I did find it interesting in those early scenes where he is kind of struggling with, I think, a desire to kill himself, let's be honest, you know, suicide trigger warnings and so on. But also a sense of how does he reconcile that with duty? Has he done his duty? You know, is he quitting? Is quitting ever okay? You know, there's a kind of, he's not uncomplicatedly despairing. There's something more going on there. And I think that was quite an interesting place to put him in. That he's actually struggling with his desire to stop living in a world which no longer contains his wife and child. That's his desire, but also he feels this obligation and this weight of responsibility or something that is kind of keeping him there.
20:14and the idea of his former colleagues basically laughing at his desire to kill himself I thought was a really interesting thing as well. And the idea that, you know, how is that not quitting? It seemed to be that they were laughing at the idea that he's not quitting. Of course he's quitting if he's killing himself. And obviously he cuts through his Marine Corps tattoo, doesn't he? Yeah, as a sort of renunciation of that, which I thought was really interesting.
20:38Chris Hewitt:Those guys, a lot of them are played by actors, but some of them are actually played by Marines. I genuinely thought that just looking at them. I'm not sure what that says. Colton Hill. Because it says at the end, when it came up to the credits, it was like, some are such and such as themselves. And I was like, what? So Colton Hill is apparently a soldier or former soldier. Nick Kumalatsos is also a soldier or former soldier. The main hallucination is Curtis Hoyle, who's made by Jason R. Moore. Returning from the Netflix series. Indeed. Just like our good friend Brett Mahoney. We can figure out.
21:13Chris Hewitt:and then there's also Karen Page and Deborah Ann Wall who is the only concession to the MCU yeah in the entire thing what did he make of the fact that he was hallucinating her and that she's the one to kind of tell him some home truths about himself and that along with the fact that suddenly 6.47pm comes around she's someone who's got through to him in the past they have a connection they have a connection I think her damage and his damage kind of line up don't they yeah you're on the same page with a pencil oh dear that felt very right Karen has always been quite Punisher coded you know there's been a lot of discussions that she has had with Matt Murdock about killing and she I mean looking at her own history she has killed before and she'll kill again she'll kill again a lizard demands are met but I wanted to get your take on this James because when she popped up it's a really good 90 seconds screen time that she uses but I got did you time it with a stopwatch no I think it was around around that okay but I got Faye in God of War Ragnarok vibes a little bit because you know she always she also plays that character and she also in a very important moment in that game you guys don't get yeah I'm super into this moment in that game level two
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22:49she comes to Kratos in a dream and sort of ushers him into action and I got that sort of vibe yeah that's definitely I haven't crossed my eye until you mentioned it but yeah that makes sense because like that's Kratos' wife if you don't know I was going to say but it's like because because you know in that case he is haunted by her memory and her influence and she's kind of still his moral compass to a point and there's an element of truth to that here I think Karen is partly a moral compass for him, although, you know, she seems to... I think they bled into each other a little bit. When we last saw Karen, she had a little bit of the Punisher in her.
23:18Not like that, Helen. I was going to say. Wow. Steady. Helen, you are so filthy. I was just sitting here. Unbelievable. That was all James. I don't know what you're talking about. But yeah, no, I enjoyed the hallucinations. I loved the way the Marines kept moving position by the windows, and it looked slightly discordant. I really enjoyed that. I like the fact that it was Addy Bernthal, his daughter, who plays Frank's daughter in the cemetery. I thought that was a really nice touch as well. Because honestly, that bit when he sees her and you see him just break at that point. Genuinely, I was very tearful at that point.
23:55It really got me that. He's phenomenal in this.
23:58Chris Hewitt:There's an element of off-off-Broadway about it. No one does an agonized bellow like John Bernthal. It is extraordinary. I mean, Helen, when Helen messages after this, she said, yeah, I wasn't expecting the grunt-to-word ratio to be quite like a thousand to one. And yet, here we are, and that is fair point. But he grunts so well. It's 30-odd full of grunt. It is. It's a hell of a thing. I mean, he genuinely does not have a lot of dialogue at all in this entire show. It's mainly vowel sounds, isn't it? No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, okay, that's probably one of his longest lines. you know he's barely coherent what was the script like?
24:46that guttural scream though as he sort of breaks through the door while on fire oh my god and you're so good and it's actually it's actually really cool storytelling because the fuse getting lit and it's actually it's him being lit and being thrown into action I like the fuse on the Punisher I love the fact although he just stands there in the petrol gives precisely no fucks and then just kicks the door down and you're just like
25:12Chris Hewitt:oh you're a fuck and then his legs magically put themselves out during the course of the shit well because he's kicking people so hard that the fire goes out yeah makes sense okay let's go with that Bernthal because I've interviewed him a few times including that time on set on The Punisher and he's a lovely lovely guy very very smart very in tune with his emotions as you might expect fuck me he's terrifying He is really, really intense. He's a very intense dude. He is. As anyone born on September 20th, 1976 is. What? Nothing. It's just a date I plucked out of the air at random. He's your identical birthday twin.
25:50Chris Hewitt:He is my birthday bro. He went left. I went right. I got the looks. He got the talent. Let's call the whole thing off. But he's really intense. Just imagine what it's like being on set in those moments. where he's at full maximum frankness and he is grunting his little... Stop it. Stop it. That's you. He's grunting his little boots off and it must be as an actor or even a crew member on watching that and the other side of that. It's impressive now with the remove of watching this through the screen. Imagine being in the same room as that. You would shit yourself. You would. You would. He's terrifying.
26:31I had a Zoom call with him last Friday and it was about the bear and I was still fucking terrified. I think he was going to kill me
26:38Chris Hewitt:with a croissant. Was he grunting? Was it him and Richie as well at the same time? Did you ask him about the Punisher? John just bellowed at the camera the entire time. I was like, John, can you... I love those guys. I love the fact that those guys have got this kind of relationship. They were Punisher and Micro. Yeah, they're doing Dog Day Afternoon. Now they're in the bear. They were in the Punisher together. I love that. You know how they met? John Bernthal was his understudy. No. Yeah, that's how they met. On what? I can't remember what the play was. Nice journalism for you. Do the bare minimum research before an interview for us.
27:08B-E-A-R.
27:10Chris Hewitt:Bare minimum, thank you. Oh, my word, we're all... We're firing on three cylinders here. Our legs are absolutely on fire this podcast. There was one moment in the fight where he falls backwards off a roof. Oh, bad CG prank. Bad CG prank. This has been everywhere on the internet, hasn't it? It's been really controversial. Everyone's saying this is shit CGI. It seems to be, from what I've read, not CGI, but an actual stuntman because you can kind of tell because they're landing on a... Yeah, they're landing on a... Like a cushion and then the CGI, they make it look like it's a metal air conditioning unit.
27:40But they've replaced his face. I think the problem is...
27:42Chris Hewitt:Do you think his limbs move in a very CG-y way? No, but the reason I think it is is that they've done this thing where it's half slowed down, not fully slowed down, and they've replaced the face so it just looks like CGI. But I think it's the... Because we're so used to seeing stuff in game stuff where people don't move at the normal speed. It is slowed down. Much like level two in God of War as you so accurately pointed out. The Kratos was fighting Diddy Kong. Exactly. And I think it's that. I think it's the frame rate. I think it's the frame rate and the face replacement. Because I bumped on it as well.
28:08I was like, ooh, that's regrettable.
28:10Chris Hewitt:Because in the middle of something that looks entirely practical, where the action is incredible, and even the blood smears and the blood splatters feel like they're not CG, they probably are. Oh, he killed these people for real. That's absolutely true. It's why the budget was so high. It's payouts to the world. He was like, stay away from bubbles, you motherfuckers. we'll talk about that in a second okay no no no go ahead I thought that he was going to have more of a role to play when I saw him Bubbles Andre Royo yeah I thought so too Bubs good old Bubs I like that and I like that it was a small run I like his relationship with the little Bodega family because it gives you that incredible and again let's not fuck about a lot like Reacher all of this stuff there is an element of just pure catharsis to this stuff you want to see really bad guys get their heads kicked in like that's just a thing but that moment where he decides like he can he can get Ma Noki he can take her down he can cover her Jesus fucking Christ I'm going to punish you in a second which and to be fair in the comic I believe he feeds her to a polar bear so he absolutely doesn't do that it does not end well for my for my new chief and so he turns away from Noki and he heads straight to the bodega because again it's like that moment where he hears her sound carries he's like daddy obviously that carries helpfully but I love that moment and it's pure catharsis he goes in he kills them all massive fucking meat neck chain guy pen action blood yeah so Andre Royo who plays Bubbles on the Wire one of the greatest TV shows of all time of course I weirdly enough met him at Comic Con a few years ago where I was interviewing Maximiliano Hernandez who plays Jasper Sitwell in the MCU and they were like best buds so he was just hanging out with his mate aww that's so cute yeah and I was like I was going will you ever be in the MCU one day this was pre like coming to the MCU will you be in one of these Marvel movies one day and he's like oh maybe so when you said I was at Comic Con the other day you meant like two decades ago I have been at Comic Con since 2017 this was around the time of it was around the time of one of the one shots right so because Sitwell was in at least I think he was in item 47 was he in a funny thing happened on the way to Thor's hammer he might have been in that as well I think he might be in The Consultant also with Clark Gregg, but he's definitely in.
30:32Chris Hewitt:This was for Item 47 now, I remember this. Item 47, which is one of the early one-shots. If you don't know what we're talking about, these are all in Disney +, and they were short films, like shortliness, that were made as accompaniments, kind of versions almost of the Pixar shorts that start their movies, that ran in tandem to the early MCU things. You had a funny thing happen on the way to Thor's hammer, you had The Consultant, you had item 47 where Jasper Sitwell who of course turns out to be a part of Hydra the scumbag tries to retrieve some some chachari weaponry that's fallen into the hands of Lizzie Kaplan and some bloke Jesse Bradford of course Jesse Bradford Lizzie Kaplan and Jesse Bradford and they were really good and they were really fun and I had fucking ideas for loads so they should bring them back and put me in charge amazing I want to see Thor's journey from where he is in Thor The Dark World to Greenwich.
31:28Chris Hewitt:I want to see that tube journey play out in real time. As a one shot. As a one shot. I want to see Thor navigating the tube because he's given bad directions. You want to know how the MCU differs from the real tube. Is that what you're saying? It's entirely possible that the MCU has completely different tube stations. A completely different tube man. Because if it's two stops or whatever from Charing Cross to Greenwich it's a very different situation, isn't it? It's a very, very different situation. how did we get on to this oh we're talking about Andre Royo so he was he was in that room and now he's in this I thought look I think again if this was an hour and a half which I think it should have been I think you would have had a bit more for that character to do you would have had a bit more to establish rather than just hardworking innocent family man threatened by events which is all that he basically is in this legitimizes it having an actor of that caliber it does it helps it always helps because it's I mean the story is quite comic book-y and I mean that in the kind of in the very reductive so it's not this is not plot-centric it's not concerning his character like he brings a lot to it because he's Andre Royo but he doesn't have a lot to work with there's not a lot going on it's just he's emblematic of something that means something to Frank that helps pull him back onto a path really like he's a plot device same way the little boy who lives in the building right you know is just a symbol of the innocence and the girl of course but yeah she's connected obviously too I imagine that he's not locked into just playing this one character I'm hoping that should something else potentially come on the table that he'll be considered for more roles people who are in the MCU have done multiple roles so there's that including Evermore's backrack indeed but yeah I think the action we haven't really talked about the gunplay the gunplay the axe play the bat play the knife play the pencil play the pipe play the pen play the four play sorry Helen back in the room calling all things play he falls off a lot of stuff in this he does he gets stabbed he gets shot he gets hit yeah but yeah I feel the gunplay felt very John Wickian in that he's checking the magazines and he's running out of ammo and he's picking up although although I have a question for that he takes a magazine off a guy on the floor, puts it into his AK-47, racks in around, gets up onto the roof, then immediately takes the magazine out and looks at it.
33:56It's like, dude, you've just put it in. You've shot no bullets. I suspect that was... Oh, I think there's been a week cut there. I think there's been something that was cut there. I was like, you haven't shot nothing. It's fine. I actually loved that repeated thing in this because he looks like such a fucking professional every time he does it. Every time he picks up a new gun and just makes sure... Some of them are clearly badly maintained guns that don't work very well because these guys are low-level criminal shits. I thought that was a great little repeated beat the whole way through. On that point, I mean, I know that she's mobilized the entire neighborhood, so maybe she thinks that she's got them.
34:32But if you're sending, you know the Punisher is a very, you know, he's the best killer around. Maybe send people other than just... You know who she should have sent them on? Everyone!
34:44Chris Hewitt:There's that guy who's with her, her bodyguard, Barry. I'd love to see Frank versus Barry, but in an episode of the Chukka Brothers. He's the size of a fucking house. He is, absolutely. It's a really interesting little one-shot, this, because we know we're going to see him next in Spider-Man Brand New Day. Yes. And we know from the trailer that there's a scene where he's in a truck chasing someone, and Spider-Man comes along and goes, hey, Frank, you can't do that. You can't kill anyone, Frank. That's a spot-on impression. And Frank's like, get the fuck out of my way. It's like having Tom Holland in his room.
35:17Chris Hewitt:He's Grant Groot. I'm wondering if that's a continuation of the story here, whether he's going after the Nucci's, their man Nucci in that, and whether she will be Judith Light, by the way, who was the star of Who's the Boss, a classic American sitcom from the 1980s. Someone on Blue Sky yesterday was suggesting that this should be called The Punisher, Who's the Mob Boss, for that reason. I think that... I don't know that the Nucci's will necessarily be in that. I feel like he'll be hunting the hand, presumably, right? If he's... I don't know what he's doing in that, but it might be a continuation of that.
35:52Chris Hewitt:Otherwise, it sets up a lot of stuff that it doesn't pay off. So it's about bringing the Punisher back, and so at the end, he's full Punisher. He's back on the board. But Manucci is shitting herself, and she's... In the comic book, she's a Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon creation, and she is hilarious, and she suffers a very, very nasty fate in the comic book. Do you think we'll see Armando Marnucci again? He's changed it. I mean, that one was better at least. I don't know. I think pretending that she's passed and giving her name deliberately wrong all the way through is that's me level humor. I'm liking it.
36:27Chris Hewitt:I'm just here for it. Yeah, I'm liking it. I think we will see her again. I think we'll see Barry again. But I wanted a face-off between him and Barry. I wanted a face chest-off because even Bernthal would have when he came up to his chest. Frankly, I'd like Braxton Wolfe to frankly. to call in his brother, Christian Wolfe, and kick some ass. That's what I like to see. But anyway, no one thinks about me. I think it's clear that Frank Castle has no brother. Not in the literal sense. No, but Braxton Wolfe does. I know. That's true. Yeah. Okay, yes, but I'm just saying he might be better off if he had a brother.
36:59Chris Hewitt:Amon opened the door. He said people can play two characters in the MCU. What if Jon Bernthal is Frank Castle and Braxton Wolfe? And Braxton Castle. And his brother Braxton. that is a complicated relationship oh the punisher unbreak my heart that's that's the that's the next one shot isn't it but yeah the gunplay here I thought was phenomenal and I felt weirdly uncomfortable enjoying it because I'm a huge action geek and I'm a big movie violence geek as well but also in the context of how country text of how psychologically intense and realistic the opening 20 minutes of this was and then suddenly he's smoking fools left and right in a way that's clearly meant to get you going, oof, but also, fuck yeah.
37:49Chris Hewitt:It felt a little bit, I don't know, incongruent for me. I don't know, it was a bit strange. I think this is maybe what I slightly bumped up on. Like, I get that the only way he can process his emotions in the state that he currently is, maybe not for his whole life, but right now, the only way he can process emotions is essentially through violence. Yes. And having come to the end of his righteous targets, he is feeling a little unmoored when we first meet him and then you know fate presents him with a whole bunch more righteous targets and he's like oh thank fuck and you know goes to work and you can see him coming back to life as he kills people in a genuinely almost vampiric sort of a way like it's really quite disturbing but at the same time I think that's why that moment at the end really really struck with me because I think you see and this is not something I think we'll be seeing in Spider-Man Don't try this at home We will not be seeing this in Spider-Man Brand New Day but you see that he is still deeply fucked.
38:45Oh, deeply fucked. But he does look he waits for the nod he waits for the nod before he kills him. He looks at the vet the vet gives that very subtle nod and he's like right, you're fucking dead.
38:56Chris Hewitt:We don't see him die. I mean, yes. It could just be a mere flesh where he just clips him. Clips him through the central mass. I love also that he's the Punisher and he's walking around not really in disguise He's kind of just walking around with a beard and a hoodie. And even when he's killing fools left, right and centre, the cops are just kind of like, eh, whatever. Yeah, they're just... Well, I think you established quite early on in this episode, Little Sicily is kind of almost a no-go zone for cops because the cops are reversing and then there's a burning class. It feels like the cops just don't go there because crime is just off the chain.
39:29Otherwise, you're fucking that awful dog-killing Batman. Not literal Batman. Thank you. Batman does not kill them. The man who has a bat. Right, the man who has a bat but is a man. He just operates with impunity because clearly there is no law enforcement present. So the Punisher can just walk out in a fucking trench coat and his whole outfit thing and just do his thing. That's all very well, but who's going to do the cleanup of all that blood and all those bodies? The janitor. Yes. Jason Statham. Jason Statham is the janitor. As much as I like this, I hope we can put a button on Frank's trauma in a way, because one of the criticisms that people have been levying at this, not entirely unfair, is that this is broadly familiar territory if you've watched the Punisher series and you've seen Daredevil, and that's a fair point.
40:23It doesn't progress the character that much, does it?
40:26Chris Hewitt:It feels cyclical. Yes, but at the same time, I think this makes an argument for the unrelenting cycles of grief that Frank has been caught up in. And we've been talking about cycles in Daredevil a lot as well. But he's a guy who's basically, this is him. This is the Punisher. It's the essence of the character. If you take his trauma away, he's just... Mikey from The Bear. Yes. He's not even Braxton at this point. He's a guy who's stuck on the five stages of grief. Anger, anger, anger, anger, and murderers. So I don't know that he's going to progress necessarily as a character. No. But also, again, not to be reductive, but the nature of comic book characters to a certain extent is they don't have huge amounts of character growth.
41:11That's not, I'm not saying none of them do, but broadly speaking, it's because they go on for such a long period of time, they tend to be fairly consistent. And if they do have a shift, they have a tendency to shift back. And so I don't think it's unreasonable that we could say, look, the Punisher is a guy who is stewing in trauma and kills motherfuckers. And that's just his thing. That's just how he rolls.
41:29Chris Hewitt:And this is what Rathal connects to. I mean, you were talking about it earlier on, what he's drawn to in some of these roles of his. He told me, again going back to the last episode, he told me that in preparation for playing Frank Castle for The Punisher season one, that he would walk the length of Manhattan at night with nothing but a backpack and a Frank Castle stare. A backpack full of guns. Nothing. But just that he would look threatening and basically just see if that, I don't think he was trying to incite anything or invite any violence meted out to him. But I think he was seeing how intimidating he could be.
42:03Chris Hewitt:On set, very. Yeah, very. And I was just, I think we've ended there, John. Thank you. Thank you for your time. It was lovely. Lovely chatting. Yeah, I think that the trauma is central. I think that the shift, if there is one in this one-off, is meant to be from kind of personally focused anger. He is going after the people who hurt him to a more, hopefully, question mark positive sense of vigilantism against wrongdoers generally now i'll be honest two seasons of the punisher already exists i kind of feel like we're already there but you know what we're just going to ignore that as a one-off this is i think meant to be the shift is meant to be from here are the people who hurt me i'm going after them to here are people who are hurting people yeah and i'm going to protect those people i don't know how much more narrative road there is for this character on screen.
42:58I really don't. But the thing is, I just don't care. And part of it about this episode that I loved is, there's no story. Who gives a fuck? The fact is, is that Jon Bernthal is fabulous and everything, but he's so fucking good as this character. And it is a delight to see him do his stuff. So if we have to suspend our disbelief and kind of maybe retread familiar ground to see him do it, I'm actually okay with that.
43:18Chris Hewitt:Yeah, it's a really interesting short. I'd like to see him do it again. Rinaldo Marcus Green, I thought, did a terrific job behind the camera here. it's really intriguing to see him in the MCU yeah as well and yeah more power to the elbow before we wrap this up because we have to wrap this up I'm really worried about the total inconsistencies of him suddenly showing up a brand new day but anyway we'll get to that he'll be brilliant but he'll be soaked in blood like a pro-op sequence he might snap Spider-Man's neck in the first five minutes and that might be the end of the movie that's the brand new day and he just grunted the audience for two hours Helen golly ten or ten that's not web fluid oh come on oh bad James bad one job your knocky puns and that was it I'm so sorry but let's talk very quickly you said that the title was misleading one last kill surely the one last kill refers to the killing of the the young Nucci boy doesn't it or is the one last kill referring to Frank killing himself I think it's meant To be frank, killing himself.
44:25You could say it's him. You could say it's Marnocki. You could say it's, you know, her killing him. I think it's him. I think it's, yeah. He was the last one on his murder list. Yeah. Because he presumably feels responsible for his family's death as well. Yeah, 100%. And, you know, I can't remember, like, you see his murder board at one point. I recognized it because it looks a lot like mine. And, you know, it wouldn't have surprised me if he'd, like, stuck his own picture in the middle of it because I feel like that's closing out his chapter.
44:53Chris Hewitt:That's what he does at the beginning. he rips all the pictures off the wall. Locks the Punisher away. That's right. Yeah. I just love this special presentation and I think that... One shot. Shut up. I think that the MCU should use it more often not only to introduce new characters like I think Ghost Rider is itching for like a special presentation. I think that'd be great. But to check in on other characters as well. Miss Marvel. We want to see what she's been up to. That would be good. Or She-Hulk. Or She-Hulk. She-Hulk. I don't know exactly what the budget was for this, but if it was reasonable, you could do that for other characters.
45:33We've been wanting to see more of them in this new phase that we need to check in on. Do it that way if you can't do a full feature film. I think that's an excellent idea. Genuinely, I would rather see, to a certain extent, one-shots of some of these characters than them trying to put together a series when they don't necessarily have the narrative. A six-episode show. Because some of these shows, you feel like, I love this character, but I'm not sure this series is great. And I think, you know, really tight character-driven one-shots would be a fabulous thing to do. They could broaden the canvas of the characters they use so well.
46:03You could see what lands, and then, you know, I think, oh, we can do something with that later.
46:06Chris Hewitt:But, yeah, it's a great idea. As much as I enjoyed, for example, say, Agatha all along, maybe a one-hour revisiting. One hour? If Agatha could have been there. Five minutes? Whatever you like. Oh, come on. Come on. You lie and you sign yourself to lies. You were the prince of lies. Unbelievable. anyway on that note unless anyone has anything else they want to add about the Punisher one last kill I liked his haircut at the end yes he has his brand new day haircut that is true that is true but isn't the brand new day isn't he clean shaven he's fully clean shaven yeah so he still needs to lose the beard but for the sake of Helen he kept it for the last day do you think he shoots his beard off oh almost certainly he's so good he can just go well he'll do he'll just walk through a fire but only his beard will be burned even then only slightly yeah it'll be perfectly perfectly cropped stubble yeah that's how he shaves with a flamethrower it's the same way that Superman shaves with a mirror and his laser eyes doesn't he does he yeah he does so I assume he similarly the Punisher must shave with bullets yes somehow do you think Superman maintains his pubis in the similar anyway okay anyway man of steelscaping well just just you know one slip and you've got some explaining to do to Lois.
47:25Chris Hewitt:Lois, my Super Johnson's on the floor. Oh, gosh. And no one's going to reattach it. There's no hospital on this planet that can reattach Superman's Johnson. Anyway, that's it for our Punisher One Last Kill spoiler special. Hope you guys enjoyed it. And our next spoiler special in the end. What, Helen? What? Well, you'd have to use a kryptonite needle, wouldn't you? Why would... No, that would be terrible. Why would you use a kryptonite needle? Because that might make... That would actually makes holes in his skin, at least, right? It's the only thing that can pierce his skin. Actually, there's a really interesting moment in The Boys where someone has to inject something into it.
48:03And the way they do that, I thought that was particularly where he uses his laser vision to cut open his own arm. Oh my God. So that's how you do it.
48:09Chris Hewitt:This is amazing. Okay. But if you use a kryptonite needle on Superman's Johnson, Yes. I'm saying that that would affect his Johnson in a deleterious manner. Well, maybe short term. Maybe short term. But if he just goes out and sunbathes for a while, I'm sure he'll be fine. Sunbathing nude? Superman arrested for sunbathing nude. He could go to a deserted island. The cooling rays, well, warming rays, of the Earth's yellow sun on my Super Johnson. It would actually be fine. That's exactly what happened. Yeah? I say this because there was an animated film. You said it very confidently. You really did.
48:48I say this because there was an animated film called Justice League Doom, which is actually pretty good.
48:53Chris Hewitt:Does this exact thing happen? Let me explain what happens. So he gets shot with a kryptonite bullet. Right, okay. And in order to operate on him and get the bullet out, he had to get a kryptonite laser to operate on him to split his body to make a big enough hole to get the kryptonite bullet out. Right. Once the kryptonite bullet is out, the body immediately heals. Immediately heals? Yeah. So there'll be no bedroom department problems? No. for Superman going forward. Well, I'm glad we've solved that to everyone's satisfaction. And on that note, that is definitely effortlessly. Punisher, one last kill.
49:28Chris Hewitt:Sparta special, hope you guys enjoyed it. Our next MCU Sparta special, I believe, is going to be Spider-Man, brand new day. Goodbye to Helen. Totally. Goodbye to Amon. Peace. Goodbye to James. Goodbye, Chris. It's lunchtime. You know what that means? A big bowl of Marnocky. I'm up for it. I'm up for it. Helen, you coming or are you still finishing your Frank Castle fanfic? It's coming along nicely. I think I can take time after lunch. Interesting choice of words. Yes, I believe that's a quote from it, in fact. Whoa, you've read it already. I passed out on page two. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
49:58Chris Hewitt:Bye. I can't believe you wished peace on the Punisher, spoiler alert. War. Well, that went in unexpected directions, I have to say. Oh, my gosh.
From the publisher
The Punisher: One Last Kill is the third Marvel Studios Special Presentation, focusing squarely on Jon Bernthal's Frank Castle as he goes through challenges both psychological and physical in a rundown New York neighbourhood. And in this spoiler special, Chris Hewitt, Helen O'Hara, James Dyer, and Amon Warmann cast their eye over the ultra-violent 50-minute one-off, co-written by Bernthal and director Reinaldo Marcus Green, and ask the question: is Frank Castle ok? It's not the only question they ask, mind you, across the course of a fun episode that ends in a place you might not expect. Enjoy.