The Ranking: Indiana Jones

22:03Chris Hewitt:Every time I look at every movie Harrison Ford made between Last Crusade and Crystal Skull, and I go, oh man, for every random hearts, we could have had a proper Indiana Jones 4 with Indianist pomp. For every Hollywood homicide, we could have had Indiana Jones 5. You know what I mean? But we have what we have. Yeah, I think just the legacy, let's call them the kind of legacy sequels, because that's kind of what they are. They just feel separate. they feel the same because of that because it was too long it feels like we should always talk about them actually and maybe go backwards because I feel like you have to if you're making an Ogan issue like that you kind of have to do what Robin and Marion did what Logan did deconstruct yeah or do something do something that's different because you can't do an Indiana Jones film with a character that old isn't isn't Jim Mangold trying to do that with Dial of Destiny yeah and I think they tried with the sort of heir apparent in in Crystal Skull as well who was that that was you know Mutt Mutt Williams the CGI gopher Mutt Williams with the CGI gopher I don't remember it's a character called Mutt in a film realising no I but they're still very much Indiana Jones films aren't they they're trying very hard to be Indiana Jones films and I don't think you should do if you're doing that character at that age I think Dial of Destiny is and it isn't I think Dial of Destiny because it gives you that opening 20 minutes with this kind of de-aged CG Harrison Ford and that bit actually feels really really quite fresh as long as you're not sitting there going oh that's a bit chunky that shot oh I'm not so sure about that oh okay it's actually quite a fun little sequence but then once it gets into indie in the quote unquote present day in the 60s I think he almost takes a back seat in his own movie because of his physical frailties because he can't do it yeah he's riding vehicles for a lot of those action scenes and you can ride a vehicle fast if you're old like you know yeah but he's not driving the action is he?

24:02Phoebe Waller-Bridge and Teddy are doing a character Teddy is it Teddy? Real Indiana Jones would be hanging on the side of the vehicle trying to get in rather than actually driving it

24:14Chris Hewitt:most of the time. I'm genuinely worried every time I've seen that film I think I've seen it three times now about him genuinely breaking a hip or just having a nasty fall and that's it. But I think there are elegaic moments in Dial of Destiny that I think actually work I think the end with Marion works I think Andy Young was being a bystander for his own movie towards the end of the movie is misjudged I don't think the failings are in the performances I think the failings in the writing really and also the action choreography I didn't expect Dial of the Destiny to be a masterpiece but I wanted some fun action scenes that have got gags in them and have got big moments and in the Adventures of Tintin movie that scene in wherever that was that incredible chase sequence with the Falcon was fantastic.

25:04I absolutely love that and it's so inventive and there's nothing that comes close to that in Dial of Destiny and I just think the action sequences are so kind of flat that there's nothing memorable. I can't remember any specific moments which I think is a big failing. And if anything the sort of tuck-tucky truck chase through the city feels too Tintin. Like it reminded me of Tintin. But without the width

25:24Chris Hewitt:and without the sort of flair. Yeah. Is there anything to be said for Dial of Destiny? because it feels like it's the last one it hasn't got the lows of Crystal Skull I'll say that for me it hasn't got the I think Crystal Skull has got some real highs but it doesn't have the highs or the lows for me it's sort of a bit just one note it's the greige of indie movies but greige is the colour he looks good in it yeah that's true I've really tried to kind of give Crystal Skull second chances and go back and have another look and it keeps annoying me there's so many You're right, the highs are really high.

26:02That's 20 minutes. I really like the waterfalls. I think the waterfall sort of escalation is like great sort of unexpected Spielbergian touch. Like, oh, we've survived the waterfall. Everything is fine. Oh, no, there's another waterfall. Okay, but we survived the second waterfall. Everything is fine. Oh, no, there's a third waterfall. I enjoyed that kind of stuff. But yeah, Mutt is so annoying. He's so annoying. And he doesn't get any less annoying as I get older. The CG is not great.

26:34Chris Hewitt:That's putting it mildly, yeah. Those sort of like, you know, swarms in the jungle do not work for me at all. My big problem with the film remains the same, that Cate Blanchett is established as having mind control powers, but doesn't use it to get the jungle animals to attack Indiana Jones at any point. Anyway, yeah. But there's a lot of potential in Crystal Skull which doesn't really get fulfilled. Like Cate Blanchett is, you know, when we saw that first image of her with the hair and everything and you're kind of like, all right, this is going to be interesting. She looks really cool, yeah.

27:03Yeah. I actually really sympathize with her request that the aliens just tell her stuff. I really, like, that is 100%, that is how I would go down. If I were a bad guy, that's what would get me. Disclosurely. I would be like, tell me all the stuff and they would be like, ha ha, explode my face. So yeah, so I have a lot of sympathy with that, but it's still not a super satisfying ending, especially when it then just rips off the mummy. there I said it

27:29Chris Hewitt:wow it ripped it does rip off the mummy where he's in a collapsing temple and he goes back for his faithless friend and his faithless friend is too busy being faithless to like hurry up and so he he gets collapsed upon while our hero gets out it is exactly the mummy but then the mummy rips off Raiders of the Lost Ark I know yeah it would probably there we go it would probably be my fourth favourite Indiana Jones film if I'm honest The Mummy? Yeah. Okay, Christ. Okay. Well, that's opening the door, isn't it? How many rip-offs were there in the wake of Raiders? Oh, that's a high road to China. Yeah, Tom Selleck.

28:12Chris Hewitt:All right, so maybe let's not go down that road. But Ian, what are the high points of Crystal Skull for you? I have more faith with it than you. I lose it around when John Hurt turns up. The space between spaces. Yeah, that character. I think the chase through academia is good. I think the opening is good. It's got great Spielberg touches, like when they get the gun pad out to find the magnetic trail that finds the head. There's some really good stuff in that opening scene. I think the fridge sequence, where the bomb goes off and there's like, that's great. Great shot with the kids, with the troops going past the bus with the kids on it.

28:51I even think that if people liked the film more, they'd be more forgiving with the fridge. I don't mind the fridge. It's no more unbelievable than strapping yourself to a submarine, is it? Like Raiders. Yeah. So I think if there's more goodwill towards the film, the fridge would be less of an issue.

29:08Chris Hewitt:Yeah, this is a series that begins with the Ark of the Covenant being opened for wiping Nazis of the fame. Not all Nazis, but wiping them off the face of the earth. And people are like, yeah, I totally get that. I did not believe the bit where he climbed into a fridge to escape a nuclear bomb. They lost me there, I'm afraid. I have still very strong memories of the time I saw Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and I was in Cannes you saw the premiere almost the world premiere yeah me and an exclusive group of 2 ,000 other people saw it and I just remember being plunged into a bit of a mini depression and walking around the Quasette for like a half an hour to an hour just trying to gather my thoughts and like what had I seen and I liked bits of it I think pretty much up until the bit in academia the bit with the Henry Jones Sr.'s statue all that sort of stuff pretty much everything with Shia LaBeouf I just think he's terrible in that film and I think there are films in which he is very very good and he was coming off the year Transformers the year before but he was very very good in that movie and I think he'd already caught Spielberg's eye by that point Spielberg was the producer of that movie Transformers and went okay you're the guy you're the guy you're going to be the next you know you're going to take over the mantle of Indiana Jones and then his performance in that is so obnoxious and so objectionable that it's a bit towards the end when Indy and Marion are getting married and Indy's hat blows onto the floor and I was and this time I didn't scream out in a cinema but I wanted to I was going don't you fucking pick that hat up don't you dare pick that fucking hat up and luckily Indy picks it up because he's smart Spielberg knows you're thinking that yeah but I don't know if he is because I think Spielberg thinks that people are going to fall in love with this character Mutt I don't think he thought that people were going to have the reaction to Mutt that people did to the point where he was just killed off screen in between Crystal Skull and Dial of Destiny I didn't he's not a problem for me with the film really I think he's mildly annoying but the bigger problems the Ray Winstead there's just too many characters Jonesy!

31:13Jonesy like Ian says John Hurt turns up and then by the end of the film it's Indiana Jones and like 8 people walking around yeah but then by Dial of Destiny it's Indiana Jones and 16 people

31:23Chris Hewitt:millions of the fuckers Antonio Banderas turns up for 10 minutes oh yeah the amount of baddies in that film yeah millions of them yeah but I don't know I think there's some really classic feeling indie stuff in there and it's the last time like the scene where Indy goes through the car he's on a bike and he goes through the car moving car onto the other bike great best shot in the movie but and then weirdly the bit where the film should take off and go into orbit when he leaves America and goes off to the jungles, like, that's when it dies. You can feel it. It's just flatline. Because it goes soundstage-y.

31:58Yeah. It goes soundstage-y in a way.

32:00Chris Hewitt:And there's soundstages in the first three movies. Of course there are, but... Why didn't they go to Hawaii? Like, I get that they don't want to go to, you know, Costa Rica and shoot in the jungle, but just go to Hawaii and shoot in a jungle. Next door to a five-star hotel. I still don't get it. It was madness that they didn't do that. Yeah. Anyway, both are flawed films. I think one is... I prefer Dial of Destiny to Crystal Skull. What's your favourite scene? But really not by much. Favourite scene in Dile of Destiny? I liked the end when all the names came up on the screen. The end is interesting when he gets stuck in the war.

32:36That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah.

32:38Chris Hewitt:I liked that he got to go back and actually meet. I thought he was going to stay there. Honestly, I thought he was going to stay there and I thought that's actually a really brave and interesting and fun and pulpy ending. And then they didn't have the courage to see it through. that's what I mean they knock him out and they bring they drag an old unconscious man back to 1960s New York and because they give us that moment with Marion which you know I'm a sucker and I did kind of like I like the I like the final shot of I guess it's a final shot of Indiana Jones because we're not going to get another one now because that one didn't do that well the box office and Harrison Ford's obviously in his mid 80s now but I liked that it kind of gave us an Indy Marion reconciliation at the end I watched it again for this and it made me laugh it made me laugh that when we first meet him in New York he's woken up by the Beatles remember that?

33:27Yes and it's like he hates the Beatles and James Bond hates the Beatles because he's wearing earmuffs Isn't there Bowie in there? There's some Bowie in there as well I'm sure there's Bowie's song

33:35Chris Hewitt:I think it was I think Mangold said it was at one point it was actually more of a kind of a Beatles-y vibe to the movie wasn't it? It was almost like Indiana Jones and the Yellow Submarine it was something like that He hangs on to a Yellow Submarine and goes to Yes which you know probably All that stuff shot in Glasgow, it was great. It's good stuff. Again, it's like the potential of having a really fun chase through a moon parade in 1969. And having a moon rolling down Fifth Avenue and stuff. They could have done some cool stuff. All right, I think we spent enough time talking about those two movies.

34:06Chris Hewitt:So we talk about the three of the greatest movies ever made. Let's do that. Okay, so the raider's posse in this room. Okay, I'll start then. And I will say that... And believe me, I'm one of them. With my Goldilocks head of film criticism, Temple of Doom is too dark. Last Crusade is too light. Raiders of the Lost Ark is just right. Thank you, goodbye. I would say that, okay, I would say that Last Crusade takes a template that is established by Raiders of the Lost Ark and infuses it with heart that is perhaps sadly missing in Raiders of the Lost Ark. That's absolutely wrong. I did watch Raiders and I thought this film needs an unconvincing Scottish accent.

34:57A comedy Scottish accent.

34:59Chris Hewitt:If you are Scottish Lord then I am Mickey Mouse. That's true. Look, that's a single flaw in Last Crusade and Raiders has no flaws. Ergo, Raiders wins. What's the flaw in Last Crusade? That Harrison Ford can't do a Scottish accent. Yes, and also that responds to that Scottish accent. That does take me out of it. It's meant to be a bad accent. In my experience, kids who grew up with parents who have a different accent to them can do that accent. They may not be able to do any other accent, but they can do accents. My wife cannot do any accents at all. You try to get her to do Northern Irish, and it's just incredible.

35:36Chris Hewitt:But her mother was Nigerian. She can do a Nigerian accent beautifully. So that takes me out of the movie. That's more unbelievable than India escaping from a nuclear bomb in her fridge. There you go. I said it I've changed my mind Las Casades a piece of shit let's go Raiders it's lovely isn't it Las Casades it's like the perfect Sunday afternoon movie it's so much fun I just think it's a bit it's a bit stage bound it's a bit Roger Moore Bond film yeah that's what it is it's a little bit Roger Moore you're saying great things it's fun it's really fun and it's heartwarming and it's cheerful it's a little bit cheesy it is a little bit cheesy Raiders is cooler what's cheesy about the bit where he is trying to get to the hidden tomb in the library and so he times stomping down on the ground with the librarian stamping a book and then makes the librarian think that his stamp is making that sound.

36:29Chris Hewitt:What's cheesy about that? He kisses Alison Doody and goes, ah, Venice. I mean, come on, you'd say that if you kiss Alison Doody. No ticket. No ticket is an amazing moment. It's genuinely really funny. Like it goes for laughs a lot and it hits it. The strike rate is incredible. It's genuinely fun. I'd also suggest that some of the action is not quite as good. That boat chase fills Roger Moore Bond to me. Oh, come on. First of all, what's with the compliments? Second of all... Truck chase versus the tank chase? Well, okay. Yes, fair enough. Fair enough. The action in Raiders is next level. But I don't necessarily flock back to Last Crusade for the action every single time.

37:10Chris Hewitt:Although there are great moments. There are great moments. There are great moments. As you said, the tank chase at the end, I think, is really, really good. It is really good. It's so good. You know, shooting the three Nazis with one bullet is really, really fun. But I go back to Last Crusade for the relationship between the father and the son, which I think is as beautifully drawn as any you could name and beautifully performed by, obviously, Harrison Ford and Sean Connery, who was just 12 years a senior. And to be fair, he weaves that into that action sequence of the motorbike chase. Yes. There is that kind of...

37:42Just everything about it. Every scene, every moment with the two of them interacting is perfect. Perfect. It's absolutely off the charts. Great. You know that father stories are not, father complexes are not my favorite thing. But that one is incredibly well done. And just the way that what drives them apart is all the things they have in common. They are too close to one another to possibly get on. and I think that is just a brilliant, brilliant way of portraying that relationship. Like, they have the same job, right? They lost the same woman. It was one person's wife and the other one's mum.

38:21And it's fucked them both up in ways that has just completely driven them apart. They care about exactly the same things. They respond to problems in surprisingly similar ways, given that Indiana Jones Sr. has never been outside of the study hall before. I shouldn't remember my Charlemagne. They've also got the same name. They've also got the same name. They're the same person, but they can get on with each other. Just why they can't get on with each other. It's such a witty film as well. I mean, the opening, although everything about this character is explained in the course of 20 minutes of his life.

38:55But it's fine, you go for it, because it's witty and it's a bit knowing.

38:58Chris Hewitt:Yeah, but I mind it with something like, say, Solo, which we've talked about ad nauseum. But for some reason, the fact that, yes, it all happens to him. Yes, he gets a scar on his chin. Yes, he gets the fear of snakes. yes he gets the whip all that stuff in like five minutes and the hat the difference is that in Indiana Jones it's a jokey opening sequence and it works because it's like ten minutes and you're like ha I know that oh ha I know that scar ha I know that fear ha I recognize this guy ha I know that hat whereas solo goes out of its way to explain stuff that didn't need to be explained it's not even solo it's every freaking prequel nowadays like this is the right way to do it is ten minutes for a gag at the start of your film and you know and it's that thing is those gags that I was talking about.

39:41It's so like the idea of Indy in America and a circus train comes along and so suddenly he's facing all of these jungle animals in his neighbourhood. And it's such a brilliantly choreographed start to a film. It's one of my favourite opening 15 minutes. It's gorgeous. Incredible filmmaking. Gorgeous River Phoenix performance as well.

40:00Chris Hewitt:Yeah, he was terrific in that movie. Who knows what might have been. Yeah. I don't know whether anyone else could take on the Mandel. genuinely and he may not have been able to do it as an adult but maybe he might have been able to who knows but I love so much about Last Crusade you're talking about how it's a very witty film it's the funniest film in the five film trilogy Tom Starbarkt script in it indeed the best thing Tom Starbarkt ever did come at me come at me geeks but you know I bet he didn't write the library stamp I bet he fucking did or maybe that's a Geoffrey Boehm one because it's credited to Geoffrey Boehm who had a hell of a year I think Stoppard is the repeteer between Connery and...

40:41Chris Hewitt:I think he is, yeah, yeah. But did he, for example, write, with any luck, he's got the grail already. Does anyone speak English? No, thank you, madam. Honestly, he's funny. He did, I believe he did, because I did a tweet when he passed away last year and I looked that up and he did that also. He wrote that. It's so good, but everything... Best cut in one of the best cuts in my history. Not kidding. It's genuinely fantastic. but it's kind of a reaction to Temple of Doom isn't it it's the idea that Temple of Doom is too dark and they were going through divorces and let's make this lighter thing but also it's a kind of it's one of the early versions of the gangs all here syndrome which I think can sometimes hamstring sequels but in Last Crusade is actually perfectly judged they bring back Marcus they bring back Salah you know and they work really really perfectly Salah in Last Crusade is a buffoon compared to the guy that he is in fact so is Marcus in fairness Marcus is a fucking idiot how does he get out of his own house let alone his own museum but it works perfectly I've just remembered the Antanx you're welcome exchange which Tom Stoppard definitely didn't write that came out in the belly of the steel beast Jeffrey Bowen it's so bad there's so much emotion at the end whenever Henry thinks that he's lost him when he's dived off the cliff and he goes I thought I lost you boy and then obviously the stuff at the end where he's dying and Indy has to save him and become a penitent man and all that stuff.

42:10Chris Hewitt:It's so great. It has the twist with Alice and Doody being the baddie. Which is great. So good. Very good. If there's a flaw and there is, it's that it starts to feel the formula. You start to feel the formula a bit in this one. It's following the beats of Raiders quite closely. And by the time you get to the booby traps in the temple in the last 20 minutes, you're a bit like, okay, this feels like... You are. I'm not. I'm like, I want fucking more of this. This is great. This is the best one. Oh, my God. Anyway, let's go backwards. Temple of Doom? Hey. Hey. I think Temple of Doom has some of the best filmmaking in the whole series.

42:48That opening sequence.

42:50Chris Hewitt:Oh, my God. Fucking precision-engineered genius. So great. Should we perhaps acknowledge that some elements have not dated that well? Yes. To be fair, I'm old. They dated immediately. there was a lot of talk at the time around racism that's not just a now thing it's portrayal of India as shot in Sri Lanka is not always 100 % accurate I think it's fair to say and you can argue that it's riffing on a certain type of film in the 40s but it's still yeah it's still not ideal but there are great bits about it I was interested that in the same way that you know I think public opinion has shifted in recent years with Back to the Future, there was a sort of, I remember back at the time, you know, Back to the Future 3 was the one that everybody loved and everybody was like, Back to the Future 2, too dark, too weird, troubling.

43:42And then public opinion seemed to just flip and all the cool kids proclaimed that they really loved Back to the Future 2 because it's more complicated and more challenging. I think there's been a little bit of a shift sometimes with indie where people will go, actually, you're underestimating Temple. Like, while we acknowledge that there are some bits of it that have not aged well or even at the time. Ian Nathan's favourite indie film Tarantino's favourite indie film you see the cool kids are all like Temple of Doom is the one I mean it just goes for it doesn't it within the first five minutes you've got a man murdered by kebab and just a man on fire in a restaurant anything goes anything goes in Club Obi-Wan that opening scene I agree with you it's incredible Wuhan, David Yip, that small little moment but I love that and you get that real sense of the end of one adventure and then the start of another one that James Bond thing

44:32Chris Hewitt:I remember watching that in the cinema and going oh my god they've poisoned Indy what's he going to do how is he going to get out of this but you don't as a kid appreciate the lavish of the production just the production there's a huge production number it's a musical number and then it turns into this wild action sequence as well and then he's a car chase and then a car chase and then he's on a plane and then Dan Aykroyd and then he has to jump out of a plane on an inflatable dinghy what an opening to a film that bit where he was where the pilots had jumped out of the plane and he's looking and Willie spots that they're coming towards the mountain and she wakes him up and all that kind of thing that was the bit that was always on TV at the time that was on Barry Norman that was the only clip that's the only clip you ever saw that what a clip because it's the only bit they were allowed to show on TV the rest was people with their hearts being ripped out is she still calling him Mr.

45:24Chris Hewitt:at that point like Mr. wake up then she says you call him Dr. Jones yeah that's right oh my god it's an extraordinary opening the energy of that and it's a rollercoaster ride that ends with a rollercoaster a cliffhanger that ends on a cliffhanger it's just it's great minecart chase has got to be one of the best action sequences it's in my top 10 action sequences obviously the truck chase is impeccable from Raiders but there's something about that minecart chase that it is literally a rollercoaster they just dropped it into a movie and it's phenomenal it's so much fun and it's got that trippiness that you get in Temple of Doom where it's almost magical realism where it's just like, there's no way this mind, there's no way this cart goes on for this long and there'd be no reason why there are gaps to jump over and stuff.

46:06Chris Hewitt:That's one thing we haven't really talked about with these movies is that, yeah, they're literally tinged with the supernatural, which I think elevates them above other films of their ilk. You know, these Saturday morning serials that Lucas and Spielberg were trying to emulate and they actually brought in, they went, no, that is the Ark of the Covenant. That is the land of the Holy Grail. But they don't overdo it though. they don't overdo it they don't throw tons of effects at you all the time and tons of magic like it's it's pretty grounded quote unquote grounded but then you you will get little bursts of magic and then it will go back well you get indie being possessed essentially yeah but mostly at the end it's mostly the last act isn't it when they've got to the place and they're facing the person or the thing you know I think I actually like him and Willy in this I think that that is a good portrayal of a perhaps not entirely healthy relationship not one that's necessarily going to be a long term relationship Willie at the time Willie was the reviews were she's irritating oh yeah they hated her yeah absolutely hated that character but I don't what I'm saying is I don't think that's entirely fair I think they're judging I think I think she's playing a line that makes a lot of sense there is no reason why someone who is a nightclub singer would in any way be prepared for any of this or would welcome any part of any of it and so that's a sensible choice to play that character that way the fact that everyone hates it says more about maybe them than it does about her as a character I remember talking to Kate Capswell about it for the the anniversary issue and the first thing pretty much she said to me was thank god it was in a box set so that people had to have that one because it was on its own no one would buy that one I think that's harsh I wonder if they had given Willie like some moments towards the end where she kind of kicks ass and actually has a bit of an arc because she kind of, it makes sense, like you're saying, that she's a bit useless at the beginning.

48:03She's a showgirl, so how would she react in this situation? But she stays like that all the way through the film, pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. It could, I mean, she does occasionally do something right, but it's very much more by accident usually than by choice.

48:16Chris Hewitt:Yeah, she's a comic relief and a love interest at the same time, whereas Elsa in Glass Crusaders is the love interest and the villain. And Marion is the love interest's but also like a co-lead who's just every bit as capable as Indy. So it's interesting different iterations of different takes on the function of that role. But so much else to talk about in Temple of Doom before we get on to Raiders. Short Round. Yes. Yeah. I mean, Short Round is a character so beloved that when Kihi Kwan came back after so many years away that people were just raving about Short Round. I wish he had been in four or five.

48:58I think that would have been really well received by fans. Yeah, 100%. It would have been cool. I don't know why that didn't happen. Fortune and glory, kid. Yeah. That's just really sweet. I mean, the genuine warmth. And it was his first film, but the warmth between him and Ford and that on screen. And it's just really lovely. I mean, that's one of my favorite elements of the film.

49:17Chris Hewitt:We talked about relatability. I remember as a kid just going, oh, fucking hell. I want to be short round. 100%. More than Indiana Jones, I want to be short round. Yeah. because then you get to hang out with Indiana Jones. My God, are you kidding me? Like, yeah. And save him. And save him. No, it's a beautiful relationship because he's a rare, not annoying kid sidekick. And that is, that sounds like I'm damning with faint praise, but like it's a genuine, it's a genuine triumph of tone. And I think it's a triumph of performance and also just that relationship that you mentioned between the two of them, Nick, that kind of keeps it on the right side.

49:54Like he doesn't feel shoehorned in. I mean even Jurassic Park the kids are more shoehorned in feeling than Short Round is because you for some reason I just completely bought yeah obviously Indy has a local pickpocket kid who you know hangs out with him and does stuff and they don't make a big deal out of it no it's just like Indy sort of treats him like he's another member you know he treats him like an equal almost I think maybe that's the seductive thing for kids and I mean this in a very non-sexual way but like that's the that's the thing that we all wanted Indiana Jones to just want to hang out with us as well and just be our friends, just in a cool way.

50:29Chris Hewitt:I think one of the things that blew my mind about Temple of Doom, even when I saw it for the first time, was because I could read and understand numbers, was I figured out that it was taking place before Raiders of the Lost Ark. It's such a little weird quirk of the franchise, but I love that. And then when it would play the Arab swordsman joke, yes, how could that happen? Yeah. Well, maybe that's just the solution to everything, right? it's not there that's a great yeah that's a great yeah but obviously the rope bridge I mean the actually it just there's so many memorable things about this movie and original like there's no other movie that ends on a rope bridge above a chasm with the hero trapped in the middle like it drops Cindy into the craziest situations but yeah it just feels very engaged and alive and they're just going for it what about the darkness of the middle section as we were talking about earlier on the Molaram ripping out the guy's heart and he still lives going into the fire, Indy being possessed, essentially turned into a kind of brain-dead zombie.

51:33Chris Hewitt:Negative overtones, notwithstanding. What do we make of that section? It's quite harrowing, but it makes it more cathartic when they finally get out of the mines and they're back in the daylight for that last showdown. It makes it feel very, like you actually feel really relieved to be out there. It's interesting watching another Amblin film, Young Sherlock Holmes, because that has a very similar thing. if you want was it the same year because that's another one where a similar thing where you go in and there is a bunch of there's a bunch of like cultists like doing dark rituals in this big subterranean and we've got this far without talking about John Williams and that his Temple of Doom theme the chanting thing amazing so great terrifying is John Williams another reason why we were talking about these movies 45 years on yes I think the way he elevates everything he's involved with, you know, in the same way that, like, your beloved Home Alone Chris that you hate.

52:27Jesus Christ. Genuinely, a lot, I think the reason that Home Alone is around today in a way that many other hits of the time are not around. Curly Sue has not survived the same way. And genuinely, I think John Williams is a big part of that. And I think his, his indie score is obviously one of his best. Well, we did the John Williams ranking already. But it's also, it's just, it's such an, And it's just such an embarrassment of riches, isn't it? The thing that he gave Spielberg two options and Spielberg's like, yep, I'll take them both. Yep. You know, it's... It's flawless.

53:00Chris Hewitt:It feels like how these screenplays are written, by the way. It's like, oh, we can do this thing where he's, you know, he's being chased by a giant boulder and also there's a pit of snakes. We'll do both. All right, fuck it. All right. Sounds good to me. Don't know how we'll make that work, but we'll make it work. Yeah, the John Williams score. I mean, I just think about it. This has got the best of everything, hasn't it? It's got the best leather jacket in movie history. It's got the best hat in movie history. It's got the best whip in movie history. It's got the best stubble in movie history.

53:27Chris Hewitt:It's got probably the best Nazi monkey, best bad date in movie history. It's got the best hero in movie history. The best director in movie history. I'm fucking straight. The best, what are we calling George Lucas? The best bearded sidekick in movie history. The best score in movie history, possibly. I mean it's just it's an embarrassment of riches it really is it's incredible oh my god yeah do you guys like the food the banquet scene as a kid I remember absolutely adoring it the whole thing of you know monkeys brains and snakes surprise and you know little snakes slithering around the place now I think it's one of the things that has aged uncomfortably and no not so not so hot now but as a kid I was into that shit big time it's quite a nifty way to get exposition out of the way because on the other end of the table they're telling you about the free and they're doing all that these films do exposition the first three films do exposition incredibly well Raiders has got one of the greatest exposition scenes and they're literally standing in a school hall looking at a book and it should be boring but it's magical it's spine chilling a lot of that is down to Ford as well delivery of all that but it's not just Ford it's like people like William Hoodkins in the first in the first movie Don Pellows they sell it so well as well but it's Spielberg's blocking and it's camera work but it's also it's Williams Williams' score in that moment you begin to hear things like the beginning of the Ark of the Covenants thing coming in when Ford flips that blackboard shit is on like shit shit just got real shit just got real incredible okay so let's talk about Raiders they shot that in George's Cross did they?

55:12I believe they shot that in George's Cross that school scene Really? I think so, yeah. I'm going to check it after this.

55:18Chris Hewitt:Oh, look at Sean Dretta. That's exciting. I was in Venice on a family holiday and saw the outside of the church that plays the library and was just like, oh my God, that's the Indiana Jones church. Wow. I get very starstruck by unexpected movie locations. Were you attacked by members of the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Swords? No, because I wasn't digging up the fricking grill, was I? My soul is prepared, Dr. Jones. How's yours? Anyway, Raiders. Yes, good film. I mean, just a bit. Yeah, I think it's perfect, like I said. I just think it's... Is it perfect? Yeah. Is it perfect? Where's the flaw?

55:53Pour me out a flaw and I'll just... I mean, okay. They say you can see the reflection of the snake. I have never been able to see the reflection. I think I have. Is this a flaw? Then when Indy dives into a tent, wouldn't you know Marion's there? I think the rule of cool sort of just allows us to just...

56:14Chris Hewitt:What about the old thing that's been leveled in this movie, not least by the Big Bang Theory, over the years, that Indy actually doesn't do anything. And if you could take Indy out of the movie, then the movie would still play out exactly the same way. I don't think that's true, by the way. I don't think that's true because if, right, it leaves the arc in play. It's dangerous. Because even if the arc still opens up on the island and blasts that particular group of Nazis, other Nazis might come looking for it and pick it up and they might bring it home without opening it. It's possible. And if they do that and if nobody else opens it and wipes themselves out, then the Nazis have the Ark to carry in front of their armies and maybe win World War II.

56:57I think that's got to be the answer to that whole, I don't want to use the word controversy, but like theory. He also blows up a specific plane. Who knows if that plane hadn't been blown up, World War II might have been blown up. He comes face to face with Hitler.

57:14Chris Hewitt:In 1938. And doesn't do anything. And doesn't do anything. I mean, probably. Nazis, I hate those guys. Yeah. Give me an autograph. I have your autograph, mate. Love your work. Honestly. Oh, dear. What a coward. Wow. Oh, my God. Goose to be morons like yourself. Should try reading books. Don't burn them. Well, he's done enough on that one. Let's talk about razors. Which is the most fun you can have without taking your clothes off. Yes. But do you take your clothes off already in any way? Well, I do. Yeah. I mean in this weather yeah best opening sequence of a film of all time yes most iconic I genuinely think it is the best opening the best 15 minutes yeah it's the second greatest movie Alfred Molina's ever made are you about to say Spiderman 2?

57:57Chris Hewitt:I am about to say Spiderman but mainly just to see what Ian Freer did and he did not disappoint it must be said idiot boy stupid boy but it's yeah the sound I mean the sound design in that jungle scene in the beginning is amazing It's the attention to detail, right? When he's running away from the natives, there's dust coming off his jacket, which was shot, that's the last thing he shot that scene. Is it? Yeah, that's the last. They went to Hawaii to finish on Hawaii, on a nice thing of Hawaii, finished a couple of days early on schedule, and he still remembered to put dust on that jacket when he's running away.

58:32Oh, he's good. Just everything about that film is perfect. Yeah. The shot from the mountain, the Paramount Mountain, down to the Mountain Mountain? Come on. And I will never forgive Dial of Destiny for not going from the Disney castle to a Nazi castle. You're right. You've reminded me. I got really angry about that. It was there. It was right there. Maybe it was the fact it was a Nazi castle. Maybe when they fresh that one out in the boardroom.

58:56Chris Hewitt:Does that match cut from something else or does it match cut from the Lucasfilm logo? It does something onto a box or something. It's something rubbish. Anyway, Raiders. Good film. Jock, the pilot who saves Indy. That actor, he was a real pilot and he evacuated the Jurassic Park car out of Hawaii. Oh, wow. Did he have a snake in the front of the plane? He did, yes. He was like, not snakes. But yeah, it's an amazing film. I just don't know. To me, it has a seriousness. You can put Raiders in the same class as The Adventures of Robin Hood or The Treasure of Sarah Mardrey. That's a classic adventure film.

59:36I don't think you can do that with any of the others. Yeah, it doesn't age, does it? I don't know if Grail has aged Grail? Sorry, Last Crusade has aged It doesn't feel like classic to me I think he could

59:50Chris Hewitt:I think he could show that I'd be interested to see how kids you know who've obviously got slightly different attention spans these days how they would deal with something that has the deliberate pace of Raiders because it feels relentless when you're watching it but it actually does take his time setting stuff up but there's so much about that movie that just introduces so many again iconic indelible cinematic images and ian i can't believe we've talked about spielberg but you as a spielberg fan as a spielberg author yeah you know is this his high watermark i mean the invention of things like the map the map following indy i don't know if that was something they took from serials yeah that's absolutely from serials but i love that you take something like the scene where belloc and indy are talking in a bazaar right it's this amazing framing where where it's quite close on forward.

1:00:38They're sort of chanting in the background. And there's a gun travelling behind in the foreground while they're chatting behind. Just brilliant. And then the blocking of the scene where Marcus turns up at his house, all in one shot. It's fucking brilliant. There's that shot that ends with the gun being thrown into the suitcase. That is incredible. There's some real noir trappings to this as well. You feel, and the shot of the Nazi on the plane when he's behind the magazine. Dennis Murin. Yeah, Dennis Murin. it's so cool and it's got an edge of danger all the way through it like I don't think Last Crusade as much as I love it it doesn't have that sense of peril like this guy's surrounded by menace it also has a real sense of fun it has a a Nazi saluting monkey like Christopher Nolan could never could never do that if only there'd been one in Tenet Dunkirk Dunkirk needed a Nazi saluting monkey well that's what they're running from

1:01:29Chris Hewitt:if we can go back in time using the Tenet principles perhaps we can introduce a Nazi saluting monkey into Dunkirk. Okay. Fingers crossed. Hells Bells, what about you as a Spielberg guy? Big fan? Absolutely fucking love it. Yeah. You will get no complaints here. I think, I just think, like, Marion's so cool. Indy's so cool. Bellock's so threatening. Marion's introduction is so fucking cool. Oh my God. She's like, and you know, with the drinking and the out drinking all of the big scary men. Some troubling implications about you. A little bit. I mean, like, there's a lot, like, we're not going to inquire too closely into some of the backstory elements.

1:02:09We're just going to like, la, la, la, that's fine. The important thing is she's real cool and very much a role model in my own drinking. I know that I don't drink, but if I were to drink, I would want to drink like Marion.

1:02:22Chris Hewitt:Yeah. If I were to whip, I'd want to whip like Indiana Jones. Exactly. And I think, so they're well matched in that respect, you know, and just that whole introduction, her feistiness, her determination to go with him. her ability to look cool in whatever outfit she has to wear for the rest of the movie. She's just awesome. It's not a film I can really criticize sensibly. I can't think of a bad scene. I mean, the truck chase is like the best truck chase there's ever been. The propeller death of Pat Roach. Yeah, the flying wing is incredible. He's so big and scary. You're really genuinely worried for Indy, even on your 54th viewing.

1:03:02there is a bit where they're escaping the well of souls and they push the giant stone slab out and it bounces on the floor that's probably the only flaw in this film the well of souls the whole snake the snake coming out of the eyeball and they keep cutting back to it multiple times the snake going through Marion's shoe so great

1:03:30Chris Hewitt:very dangerous I mean it's you go first it's a it's a hell of a movie and it scared me shitless when I was a kid it's like that Temple of Doom thing again when the Well of Souls is like this 20 minutes in the dark with snakes that's super claustrophobic and then it's like the catharsis of coming out and it's bright light and you go straight out into this double action scene like punch up and then straight into the truck chase I love the way it goes from the fight to the chase it's so quick it's like two lines and then you're off and it's so that's my favorite bit of the film the way the John Williams score kicks in when Indy's going down the hill on the horse towards the convoy just as it's starting that is the best moment but it also has the balls and this may be the last thing as we wrap up it also has the balls to do something which is very very unconventional which is strap its hero and heroes in fact to a post for the finale of the movie and have them do nothing except close their eyes and I don't know whether that's brilliant storytelling or that's the sort of thing Save the Cat would not tell you to do, right?

1:04:35Chris Hewitt:Screenwriting manuals would go, you probably shouldn't tie your hero to a post and have him be utterly passive. Can you imagine if that's how Black Adam had ended? It would have really changed the hierarchy of the power in the DC universe once and for all. It might have been better. But I think that's about the intelligence thing again. That's about problem solving again. He knows the piece of information he needs to know to survive that moment, and he tells her, and she has enough faith in him, and their relationship is repaired enough that she listens. He is beginning to have faith also, like George Michael.

1:05:06And so these are the things, that's the character arc. And I wish that more films would take that kind of chance and not save the cat, as it were, and tie their hero to a post or a mast or whatever's handy and just let the Nazis destroy themselves as is the nature of evil. And there's a sense of a higher power, right? Which I think comes from Spielberg and his faith and he's an action hero indeed, but he's nothing compared to this higher power that's really controlling everything and all he can do is just sort of hide from it at the end, which I think is really interesting.

1:05:39Chris Hewitt:All right. Well, does anyone else want to say anything bad about Last Crusade before we start putting the votes down? I actually like the library stamp bit. I was making fun of it, but I love it. Yeah, I do too, actually. It's great. That guy's got great Alba Einstein vibes. Yeah, all right, then that's okay. ruined my attempt of doing latch for black but that doesn't matter it doesn't matter anyway alright listen it's time to put this to the vote and see which of these movies will be number one oh god the suspense is absolutely killing me I'm nervous because I know yours is not Raiders so I'm legitimately nervous do you think that either of these people any of these people will be voting for Last Crusade above Raiders I was nervous I thought yeah I thought there might be a tie I thought that yeah Well, there might be.

1:06:29Chris Hewitt:There might well be. Let's find out, shall we? We'll be back in two seconds with the Empirical Empire, Indiana Jones, Top 5. Back in a second. All right, we are back, folks. We have voted for the Top 5 Indiana Jones movies, or the only five Indiana Jones movies. And how it works is everyone's put together the Top 5s, sent them to me. I've assigned points values to your choices. Your number one choice gets five points. Your number five choice gets one point. And you can work out the rest, I would hope. And so, should we get into it? Yeah, let's. Do it. All right. So, at number five, we have something quite interesting.

1:07:16Chris Hewitt:We have a tie. Holy shit. We have a tie between Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. And I have to say, I'm surprised by that. Can I dig into this? Who voted for Crystal Skull? Last. I did. Me. So it's two last and two second last. I explained my logic. I think Kingdom of the Crystal Skull's got worse bits. I also think it's got better bits. so I would rather watch the first half an hour A Kind of Crystal Skull and then leave the room I'll be honest I didn't revisit them so I was just going off my feeling yeah my vibe that Dial was better than Crystal Skull I think yeah Dial of Destiny is just forgettable sadly and I think that's a bigger crime ultimately than gophers and fridges it's the last Indiana Jones movie or at least the last one with Harrison Ford I just think it could have been it could have been something better yeah it's hard to believe that Disney won't find another way to reinvent this franchise I think they know that there would be riots in the streets maybe not riots in the streets I have two ideas one of them is an animated series Disney Plus no brainer the other one is a short round live action series would watch bring key back bring key back those 100 % bring key back you could have Harrison Ford cameo and you could have other actors from indie cameo but you just give Key his own he can do the action he can do the comedy he'd come back at the character everyone would watch it.

1:08:50Chris Hewitt:I still think my idea for a series of Chronicles following a young Indiana Jones would be a really great idea. And you could have a scene where he plays the sax and then an icicle falls on a Nazi's head and knocks him out. Is that what happens? That's what happens. Oh my god. It's actually quite good. I genuinely like I very seriously do not think that the world is ready to recast Indiana Jones. And I don't know when and if that will happen. I'm fine with it not happening. This is not me requesting that somebody really get their thinking cap on. If anything, the reverse. I'm going to say something that some people may find questionable or objectionable, but hey, what's new?

1:09:26Chris Hewitt:I don't think they should even think about recasting it while Harrison Ford is still alive. And here's the thing. I agree. Harrison Ford's going to live for a long, long time because he drank from the Holy Grail. That's true. Yes. Yeah. But no, but genuinely, like even, like I, it's not even connected to his lifetime. I just, I don't think the world has any fraction of a wish for it. And I just... I think the character is tied to the actor and if it's not the actor, then what is the point? Do you think people were saying that around you only live twice? I don't... It's hard to know, isn't it? No, I don't.

1:10:05It's hard to know whether that... But then that was a book, there was a source there that they could still draw from. this is just Harrison Ford yeah

1:10:16Chris Hewitt:yeah I don't know I think a de-aged Tom Selleck would be a great idea yeah I don't know I don't know about recasting I wish just how much I like that Tintin animated film I wish Edgar Wright and Joe Cornish had written an indie film and I think they could have done a really good job of it yeah that could have been fun but that ship has probably sailed I believe it probably has but alright so are we happy with that being a tie yeah in a five film list. That film's right to me. All right. Nobody wants to change their rankings so that one film is definitively the worst or the least best, if you want to put it that way.

1:10:53Chris Hewitt:We're happy with that? We're all good. All right. Yeah, we're all good. And we have a tie at number four, actually. Joint number four, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and The Dial of Destiny. Number three. Could it be Temple of Doom? I think it's Temple of Doom. It is. Fortune and glory, kid. Fortune and glory has come the way of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Happy with that? Yep. All right. Okay, it just means to be seen. Because I said that your number one choice gets five points. I forgot to mention, in my case, the number one choice gets 78 points. Yeah, I forgot that. Yeah, I should have mentioned that beforehand.

1:11:35Chris Hewitt:No, only kidding. Number two, but it was close. It was close. Too close. It was close. Yes.

1:11:44Chris Hewitt:unfortunately for Indiana Jones and the last crusade it is a case of no tickets it is at number two Chris is like everyone's lost but me and latch for a blast from me you bastards the penitent man should pass not a penitent it's still very fun I'm not penitent I think that's the correct answer it is close and it should be close but it's the correct answer but a lot Jehovah spelled with an I oh dear oh my god I think I know every single one of his lines in that movie anyway yes number two is Last Crusade but Last Crusade it breaks the heart and the head but Last Crusade is not number two it is good it is a good film but at number one one of the greatest movies ever made I don't think anyone can quit with this even with me a Last Crusade truther Indiana Jones and the raiders of the Lord's hand.

1:12:42Chris Hewitt:Don't call it that. Don't call it that. Why are you upsetting? He's one of the raiders. Chris, that's for blasphemy. What? This is out of control. Kim Newman always felt that they should have called Temple of Doom Raiders of the Temple of Doom. So you can swap out Indiana Jones if you need to. They could be a general raiders. Raiders of the Last Crusade, Raiders of the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. But there were more than... Well, we're going down a rabbit hole here or a minecart, a Temple of Doom hole. But there are multiple raiders of the Ark. There is only, he's only Indy is raiding the temple, right?

1:13:17Because the rest of them live in there. Short, short round though. Oh yeah. Is the minecart sequence the most ripped off action sequence of the Indiana Jones movies? Hmm. I mean, I'm thinking obviously like Goonies. I'm thinking Journey to the Sound of the Earth. I'm thinking, I don't know how many other things, but I feel like I've seen it like a million times. I don't know.

1:13:39Chris Hewitt:I think things like the swordsman fight are pretty ripped off. But it's had an impact. It has had an impact and it's had an impact on all four of us and it is number one in our Indiana Jones ranking. Something I've wanted to do for a long, long time. So thank you guys for coming together and indulging me and making this dream a reality. All that remains now is for me to say goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning. It is goodbye from Helena Harrow. So long, Louché. I think that's a misquote. That probably is. Bye, Louché. See you later. See you later. Nice try. Nice try, damn it. Goodbye, Ian Freer.

1:14:23Goodbye, Wombat.

1:14:25Chris Hewitt:Goodbye, Danic the Semlian. I was going to do the Nazi monkey impression, but I'm not going to do that. It's problematic and doesn't work on a podcast. Bye, Chris. See you in the Temple of Doom. See you tomorrow, Indiana Jones. See you tomorrow in dinner, James. It's goodbye. Where does it hurt? Jesus Christ. It's goodbye. I'm not going to kiss you. No, it's not going to happen. Anyway, it's goodbye from me as well. I am not going to do any problematic farewells by impersonating any Nazis, monkeys, or otherwise. All I'm simply going to say to you guys as by way of farewell is this. Alan! Thanks for listening.

1:15:05Chris Hewitt:See you next time. Bye. You