Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery (ft. Rian Johnson)

20:36Chris Hewitt:you know how hard was it for you to come up with that puzzle and make sure all your i's were dotted and all your t's were crossed well it's it's it yeah it's it's hard it's not um i don't know but it's also uh it's not the hardest part it's it is hard but it's it is a bit also just kind of like constructing a crossword puzzle it's something you just kind of um put the elbow grease into and you can figure it out, you know, in terms of all the little bits and bobs of, okay, what did what and how do I set this up and how does that get paid off and the actual logistics of the murder mystery. I mean, most of the work with that is trying to figure out how simple you can make it for the audience.

21:17You wouldn't think so if I watch these movies, but believe it or not, a lot of work goes into making it simple and clear. Yeah, honestly, the harder thing is always the thing that's hard about writing any movie, which is the audience actually giving a damn about what happens. Because they won't about clue gathering and whodunit at the end. That doesn't matter really to an audience. And so you need a protagonist they care about. You need the protagonist to want something they can't get. And you need the audience to want them to get it. So it's the same building blocks. And that's always the hat trick.

21:54Chris Hewitt:You say you're a dedicated outliner. So when you sit down to write the first time, do you know, for example, Sorry, everyone. Martha and Dr. Nat are in cahoots. Yeah. All that stuff with the red devil's head. Do you know everything? No, those details I don't – well, at some point I do. I mean, it's basically essentially for me, writing is sort of like, you know, you start with Google Earth. You start zoomed way back with just a picture of the planet. You say, okay, making something that's round. It's got these clumps of land. They probably go about here. Oh, yeah, because it's sort of about this.

22:30And so I want the whole picture to add up to this. Okay, so now let's zoom in a little bit more. And so in this, that means in this first act, I need to accomplish this to get the audience on the side of the protagonist, but it needs to be this. So it should be a priest. We got to start by seeing. I don't want him to be just one dimensional and too saintly. So let's say he was a boxer as a violent past. And let's start with that. So we actually see it on screen. And then let's put him up against somebody who really represents everything that's the opposite of him, but who has all the power with wicks so that we're on his side.

23:03He's the underdog. And then that's great because then I can build my own experience of faith into all the other people in the congregation and how they feed off this person while resenting him. And then he gets murdered. And so anyway, you kind of start then building it chunk by chunk and you start zooming in bit by bit. And it's not until you zoom way in that you get into things like, okay, he was stabbed with this, the red devil head. Okay, that comes from the bar, so that means this and that. And all those little details are kind of near the last steps of it. You have to start kind of looking at the planet Earth.

23:41Chris Hewitt:Was there one that tripped you up at all? There were so many. This was really hard. But yeah, it was – I mean, the actual mechanics of the murder itself were something I only really kind of cracked very late in the game. I kind of had it in there as a placeholder because the reality – and that's what I mean. I mean, the fact that you can build one of these movies and kind of – I feel like now on the third one, I sort of realized, okay, I know I'll be able to figure that out. I just need to, what I need, and it's nice because it means in the shape of the actual story, I need the murder to feel, to be very clear visually in terms of why it's impossible that it happens.

24:29I need it to feel miraculous and feel impossible in a way that just instantly registers. And I need the mechanics of it to be such that this person did it while this person helped cover it up. And this is what all the other people saw, including Father Judd. I need to know Judd's experience of it. and so it's almost like that then defines the chessboard that you're playing on or gives you the pieces for the chess puzzle okay you have two knights and a king and a queen on the board um and then you can start drilling in and saying okay that means with those restrictions it should be this it should be that okay what if it's this okay what if this little bit in bob is there i can set that up in the first act and you start putting that stuff together yeah You're telling me, brother.

25:27Chris Hewitt:Oh, don't write, kids. Go into the legal profession. Oh, my God. There is, I think, one thing we're not told. I may be wrong about this. I've only seen the movie once. Father Judd goes looking for the hip flask, and it has been taken from his room. Yeah. I don't believe we find out who takes it. I'm guessing Martha? We had to Martha because she's the one who has access to the rectory. I actually had a, we shot that. We shot a thing during the big explanation at the end where Martha said, even when I retrieved this flask, it was easy. And you see her taking it out of the thing. The whole end sequence was just a little too long.

26:07I was trying to compact, get it, you know, tighten it up as much as I possibly could. And I thought that was one thing where, okay, if that's something you actually care about, you know that Martha has access to the rectory. You kind of can assume that she took it. But I don't know. It's one of the things of just, it's always a trade-off with pacing versus tying up every loose end. There's probably a few examples of that in the movie.

26:32Chris Hewitt:Oh, but that's the only one I noticed. I'll take it. Let's talk about Martha. We've got to wrap up in a second. But she's fascinating. And in terms of audience misdirection, she's really interesting as well. Because I guess very early on, we see her make her confession to Monsignor Wicks. And he stumbles out of the confession. And you think, what kind of crazy, kinky sex thing did she just? She also is, of course, part of the flashbacks. You established very early on that she is crucial to this story. And then look over here. There's a lot of stuff going on over here. How hard do you have to work to keep audiences' focus and attention away from Martha until the end?

27:14You don't really. I mean, that's the thing. I feel like maybe not at all. I didn't even think of that on those terms really because, I mean, first of all, because it naturally happens because you're focusing them on everyone else for everyone else's moment. You need to credibly build everybody else as a possible suspect. And so that very naturally kind of keeps Martha in her place. But at the same time, it's – I don't know. I'm never that afraid of tipping it too much. I feel like if I showed the script to friends and everybody was like, oh, yes, I know who did it on page one. That's a problem.

27:55Then that's an actual problem. I feel like it has to be really far in that direction for that to actually be a problem. Because I think I knew this – I kind of knew this person did it is not actually a problem for a movie. It's the why. It's not the why. It's that it felt satisfying that it was that person that did it at the end. And emotionally, I got an ending that felt satisfying, which is a lot different than that made sense or that I didn't guess. It's why, and I hate to this is true spoiler for your listeners, you can always or with 99 % certainty predict who the killer is going to be in any Agatha Christie book or any well-written mystery.

28:40And it's not the least likely person. It's not any of that. It's who will it be the most dramatically satisfying in this story for the killer to be? And it will always be that person because Agatha Christie is a good writer. And she knows you won't judge the book based on, I didn't guess it, you'll judge it based on that felt right to me in a way that was unexpected.

29:06Chris Hewitt:Absolutely. But it is, I think also, it is the emotional connection, the flashback, the Eve's apple, all of that stuff. Absolutely. The misogyny, the deeply rooted misogyny that she holds inside her of the resentment of this figure in the church, this harlot whore that she's projected all of her shit onto. Yeah, absolutely. And that's And hopefully Judd being able to kind of do what he's meant to do and be a good priest and show the forgiveness of Christ and lead her out of that at the end. Yeah. It's what creates that sort of genuine feeling of satisfaction. I hope that's what you actually bake into it, you know.

29:47Very much so. Ryan, I'm being wrapped up.

29:50Chris Hewitt:There's so much to talk about. Yeah. Another time. All right. Another time. Brilliant. Brian Johnson. Thanks, man. It's always a pleasure, man. Thank you. Thank you. alright that was Ryan Johnson talking about Wake Up Dead Man a a a a a a a a a a I think we're mispronouncing the title by the way okay

30:11Ben Travis:carnivores out no not that bit you idiot wake up the ad man no oh like Northern Irish yeah the ad

30:18Chris Hewitt:man wake up the ad man I suspect my pay so I do so many hate crimes in one room You can't hate your own people, Helen. I think the Northern Irish history. If the history of Northern Ireland has taught us anything, we're all one big happy family. Anyway, no, I think we're putting the emphasis on the wrong words. Most people will say, wake up, dead man. They'll just say it flat staccato like that, wake up, dead man. But when you see the film, and you know that it revolves around the possible resurrection of Monsignor Wicks, played by Josh Brolin, I think it should be wake up dead man right or it could be wake up dead man because you could also argue that a couple of characters wake up dead is this one of is this one of those things where if you put the emphasis on a different word each time it completely changes the meaning of the sentence wake up dead man not really wake you have a wake at a funeral yeah I guess but no but that's what it is it's like you know the dead man Sure, I get you.

31:24Chris Hewitt:And Monsignor Wicks, in this case, we are led to believe that he is resurrected at some point. Did anyone think that? I don't know whether that's... We'll get into it in a second, but I just think we're emphasizing the wrong part of the title. It's all. I'm not getting hung up in it. It's not like the knives out Benoit Blanc mystery type thing. You know the Benoit Blanc thing might be just because they don't trust people to be able to spell Benoit. Benoit is, for people who don't have any French, you know, not an intuitive spelling. Maybe it's that that they're worried about. No, I'm sure that's one of the reasons.

31:53Chris Hewitt:I'm absolutely sure it's one of the reasons, but it just, it pierces me. It didn't focus group well. It pierces me like a devil dagger to the back. It pierces me. Anyway, before we get into this film, the specifics of this film, let's talk about general reactions. Jimbo, I'm looking at you right now. I know that you've talked about this on the podcast. You think that this has a lack of blanc. There is a blanc space where Benoit Blanc should be.

32:18Ben Travis:Yes, much like the Taylor Swift song of the same name. Oh, that's why you love this franchise so much. it sounds churlish to say that this is my least favourite Benoit Blanc film and it is my least favourite but it's still brilliant like I don't have any I don't think it's bad

32:32Chris Hewitt:at all I love it

32:33Ben Travis:you haven't come to Superman

32:34Chris Hewitt:this you're not pissing on chips

32:35Ben Travis:I'm not pissing all over I'm not pissing kryptonite all over his chips my issue is and I talk about this quite a lot in the offices while I think Josh O 'Connor is brilliant as the lead as the star as the person investigating this who frankly could probably do it without Benny's help I don't think he can There's ample evidence in the movie to suggest

32:54Chris Hewitt:That he would not have got there in the end

32:56Ben Travis:He was getting there

32:57Chris Hewitt:It was around the time Oh I don't know if you can follow me on this one That he's turning himself in for a murder That he thinks he has committed

33:03Ben Travis:I'm not saying he was taking the most direct route It was all a fake out It was all a fake out 20 years into his prison sentence He's been 4D chess It's 4D chess You can't even compute Anyway You sit on a throne of lies Love him I think he's fantastic The Reverend Judd Duplensity or Duplentis it's Duplentis isn't it? Duplentis yeah that's right it's a great name can pronounce it absolutely really love him but crucially had I paid for a ticket that would not have been why I bought the ticket because I was there for Benoit Blanc and so when he doesn't turn up till around let's be honest 45 minutes into this film I was feeling a little bit anxious alright okay

33:44Chris Hewitt:counterpoint the model that Ryan Johnson has has cultivated for all of these movies means that Benoit Blanc is not the protagonist in any of them. He doesn't see him as the protagonist in these movies. He sees Marta in the first one and Helen in the second one. Spoilers for those two movies, by the way. And obviously Chud in this one as the protagonists. You do get Benoit Blanc in the first shot of this movie, though, right? So that keeps you going. That gives you a little bit of Blanc. It lets you know you're in the right cinema.

34:13Ben Travis:Drip feeds you a little Blanc. Crucially, Helen isn't weirdly... Not you, Helen. Sorry to take your name in vain. is not the protagonist of the second one until a goodly way into the film as well.

34:22Chris Hewitt:Yeah, that's fair. So, he's definitely the protagonist at the beginning of the film. He does that twisty, turny stuff. He does. When Blanc comes in, there's a lot of Blanc. There's a lot of Blanc liberally thrown around. There's a decent amount of Blanc.

34:32Ben Travis:There's not enough Blanc, but there's a dollop of Blanc. I think they climb Mont Blanc, to be honest. I feel like there's plenty there to be going along with. And I enjoyed Judd a lot. I thought he was great. I thought Joshua Conner was absolutely fantastic in this. Yes, he is wonderful. So I didn't feel that lack. I think that was great. I think if there is a shortcoming in this film, and I loved it a lot, it's that the supporting cast maybe don't get quite as much to do in all cases as in some of the previous films. They're not quite as vividly drawn, I don't think. But that's my biggest quibble with it.

35:07I had a great time.

35:08Ben Travis:Someone asked me this actually just before this podcast, who does Andrew Scott play in Wake Up Dead Man? And I was like, I know he's the writer but I can't tell you his name I could not could not tell you how he fit into the overall plot because I'm not sure he doesn't

35:21Chris Hewitt:he doesn't and I don't know that everyone in Knives Out for example fits into the overall plot I think Glass Onion Ben I'll bring you in now because obviously you wrote the feature for this so you're in the pocket of Big Johnson unfortunately phrased did he write you a blank check I'm going to carry on with it Glass Onion I think did a better job of making the ensemble all feel in some ways important to the plot even characters that you'd maybe dismissed revealed themselves to be quite important going on knives out though like the masturbating naughty teenager you know Jaden Martell I don't know how important Jaden Martell is to the overall story and I think if I have criticisms of Wake Up Dead Man which is a film I absolutely adore I think these films my god Johnson's three for three for this that is a criticism for me as well I think some of the characters really really pop and some of them get really really lovely moments like Kerry Washington when she's dressing down Daryl McCormack's character, Cy and characters like Samson, the Thomas Hayden Church character are withheld from the plot for again obvious reasons, we can't know Samson too well because we know him too well we'll know that he's gone missing for the second half of the movie and you might start putting two and two together, but I do genuinely think you could cut Andrew Scott out of this movie and you wouldn't miss a beat.

36:46Chris Hewitt:You wouldn't miss me. Do you miss me? Do you miss me? Do you miss me? No, Andrew, I wouldn't. And that's a shame. He's funny when he gets things to do but he doesn't contribute to the overall plot. You could argue, of course, all characters don't need to contribute to the overall plot. Especially in a murder mystery where you need some red herrings and you need lots of misdirects. I think if you just, like, put a production together that has a lot of priests and people who are hot, the hot priest is just going to turn up at a certain point and you find something for him to do. Hence why Andrew Scott is in this film.

37:19Oh, he's just naturally drawn. Yeah, like if there's a convergence of priests, Andrew Scott's going to be there. Going to turn up. That's just how that works. That does check his maths. Hot people, priests, check.

37:30Ben Travis:Andrew Scott, just naturally materialize. It's like saying Candyman in the mirror. That's how you sound like. It's like in this one, he's hot but he's not a priest but there are priests and so the Venn diagram of hotness and priests.

37:40Chris Hewitt:Is this like the priest's hotline in Father Ted? Yes. Exactly like that. Okay. Hot priests in your area are looking to slide into your confession. And actually that would explain why he has free time to do other things because priests and hotness do not often coincide in the Catholic Church. Can I emphasize enough? Not a priest in this film. Anyway, but Hells Bells, before I bring Ben in, I want to hear Ben's overall thoughts on the movie. I think you are uniquely ranked to rank the hotness of the priests in this movie. We have a number of hot priests. We have Jeffrey Wright. We have Josh Brolin.

38:13Chris Hewitt:There's another priest at the beginning, but he's not hot. And I don't remember who plays him. And of course, Joshua Connor. That's true, yes. I think Jeffrey Wright is perhaps a hot bishop. I was all the same.

38:25Ben Travis:I was going to ask Helen, as the podcast resident Catholic, can you tell me where does a monsignor fall in the overall rankings of the Catholic Church? In the top trumps, does a monsignor trumps a priest, but is trumped by a cardinal? Yes. What's the ladder? Explain it to me. Who's trumped by Cthulhu? Everyone, I think. I think everyone. The old gods. In that event. Yes, everyone. I believe that a monsignor is more senior than a priest, but less senior than, definitely less senior than a cardinal. I think less senior than a bishop. But I think they have a slightly different purview, possibly. So that's a little woolly to me.

38:58Chris Hewitt:Okay, but I want you to take your purview and tell me the hotness of the priests. I want you to rank them right now. I mean... Instinct, go. number one number three let's go for number three number three right she spoiled it right O 'Connor right O 'Connor Brolin right O 'Connor Brolin that's that's exactly what I had written down on my card to be honest but with the caveat that Brolin in this film is obviously a horrible person a horrible person

39:22Ben Travis:but Helen's really superficial

39:23Chris Hewitt:so that doesn't matter too much but that money was just resting in his account or he wanted it to be resting in his account which brings me neatly back to Ben who has big Johnson money resting in his account

39:36Chris Hewitt:learning a lot today wow Ben overall thoughts on the movie finally 15 minutes in it is I think equally as great as the other Knives Out movies thanks Ben that is an almost impossible feat and I would be mad at anybody's ranking of these three films including my own if you said you think Knives Out was the worst one that is wrong if you think Glass Onion is the worst one that is wrong if you think Wake Up Dead Man is the worst one that is also wrong I can't abide any of those opinions

40:04Ben Travis:So what you're saying to keep the Catholic trend it's like the Holy Trinity they are at once distinct but also exactly the same and on a level and there is no ranking between them

40:11Chris Hewitt:So this was deliberate on Rian Johnson's part That's right It's a theological commentary on the doctrine of the Trinity Like Josh Brolin prefers things to be it is perfectly balanced As all things should be Oh boy Oh no You've activated it These films I think are such a treat as an audience member You sit down and you just know you are going to be looked after for two and a bit hours. And you are going to be told a ripping yarn. You are going to have some great fun with Benoit Blanc. You're going to meet a cast of interesting side characters. And Andrew Scott. Get some fun mystery stuff. And also see some wild narrative chicanery unfold before you.

40:53I think this one's maybe the least ambitious in terms of the narrative structure. This is why I would beef with anybody who says that Glass Onion is the weakest one. There was a weird bit of backlash against Glass Onion, I think, when it hit Netflix, that wasn't part of the initial release. Really? People are weirdly a bit down. Really? He's right, yeah.

41:14Ben Travis:I wonder whether it's tonal, it's partly tonal, because it's more overtly comedic than the other two. It is, and that's the thing that I love about it. So do I. The tone and the look of it and the feel of the film and who the characters are all in perfect sync with each other, and it is very, very specific, everything that it's doing. But the narrative switcheroo in that is insanely impressive. It was the same with Knives Out. The mystery you think you're watching, or you think you're watching a mystery at first, and then it tells you the supposed answer of the mystery, and then you follow that thread for a bit, and then it reveals, actually, there's more to the mystery, and then you're going to unspool that for a while.

41:50This one...

41:50Chris Hewitt:Like a glass onion, in fact. Like, healing back the layers of a glass onion. Wake Up Dead Man it still has lots of playfulness in it and it keeps going in directions that you're not expecting and it made it really hard to do the interviews for the magazine for this because I also had to say to everybody I need you to tell me things this is a murder mystery, you're going to want to keep your cards close to your chest, I get it, but I also I need you to tell me some stuff, but also I don't want to be spoiled I cherish the experience of getting to watch these for the first time and being taken on that ride.

42:25So I don't want spoilers. We don't want spoilers for the readers. Then interviewing Josh Brolin and at a certain point going like, well, it's called Wake Up Dead Man. He's the dead man. But then is he dead? I have a feeling that this might involve you thinking that he's dead, but then maybe he's not dead. But then can I write in the feature that he's the dead man? Because what if he's not dead?

42:47Chris Hewitt:Did you know definitively he was the victim? Or one of the victims? Yes, because the second trailer had come out that was very much, Monsignor Wicks is dead. Right. But then you go, well, can I trust that? Is he really dead? Would they reveal that if he was the dead man? Right. And so interviewing Josh Brolin and being like, I think you're the dead guy. As far as I know, you're the dead guy. Did you have to do a lot of dead guy acting in this? Was one of my questions. And he was like, yeah, there were various scenes where I was just kind of lying there. but then obviously there is more to the mystery I just think Johnson is insanely smart he is one of my absolute favourite filmmakers at this point and good movie good movie oh my god like don't get me wrong I love Brick I have a lot of time for the Brothers Bloom Tamland but I love my Brick the run of Looper

43:44Ben Travis:Last Jedi and then these three Knives Out movies holy did you I've seen that interview recently where he was saying that Star Wars was like the most wholesome experience from interacting with fans ever. Clearly not a man who goes on the internet very much. I'm quite right. If this is the result, yes. Yeah, absolutely. I love that for him because it's a fantastic Star Wars film. This is crucially not a Star Wars spoiler special, but I just thought it was a very interesting comment that he made. I agree. I think the interesting narrative switch here is the framing device, is the sort of the idea that Joshua Connor is telling this story in an attempt to inform Benoit Blanc so he can then solve the mystery.

44:21I thought that was an interesting way of coming at it rather than doing that sort of, you know, Poirot, Jessica Fletcher thing of I just happened to be at a country house and then a murder happened. I don't know. It just keeps following me around. You know, I thought that was kind of an interesting way to approach it and a different way in. And it gave you a lot of time to fall in love with Judd, you know, and plentity? Plentity.

44:44Ben Travis:Plentity. Duplentity. Duplentity, which was very fun. So, yeah, I thought that was really satisfying, actually. I do have a complaint. A serious... Really? A serious grievance. Okay. So, the second Knives Out... Yes. ...had no luxurious Aaron knit sweaters in it. Completely understandable. True. Hot climate. Impractical. However, less clement weather here. Totally could have busted out the knitwear. Didn't. What are you doing? We've still got the big coat game going on. The coat was good. The coat was good. Big coat energy. But it wasn't that... That just... I mean, that sweater. And he had his sort of Mission Impossible 2 hair with the swish, you know, so...

45:21Ben Travis:You want Benoit Blanc to bust down a jumper? No, I mean, I'm specifically referring to Chris Evans as one of the first ones. I know, but... I'm saying, you know, anyone could really wear... If you've had that quality of knitwear on hand, anyone should be wearing them. Daryl McCormick, you know, could wear a knitwear well, but do you want him to? Because he's an even bigger shithead than Chris Evans was in the first one. Is he, though? Well, okay, he's on a par with.

45:41Chris Hewitt:Chris Evans killed one person trying to kill another. I know, but this guy's just a schmuck. in a really opportunistic, craven, crappy way. Also a YouTuber. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Prison. Smash the like button. Subscribe. Like and subscribe. Yeah. All right. So a couple of things I want to ask. I want to obviously talk about the thematic preoccupations of this movie. I want to talk about the tone of this movie, which I think is very interesting and is not necessarily the tone that has been portrayed or painted in a lot of reviews. But let's talk about the, I know, I want to talk about Benoit Blanc as well.

46:19Chris Hewitt:But let's talk about the central murder or murders that are in this film. Because the body counts are going up in this franchise. What, two people die in Glass Onion, right? One off screen, which is interesting. So the principal murder of Glass Onion doesn't, we don't see it really until right near the end. Four people die in the course of Wake Up Dead Man. and there are what two killers? Am I right about that? Two killers? Just like Scream 2. Yes. Just like Scream 2. And Scream 1.

46:54Ben Travis:And how many of the other Screams? And Scream 4. And Scream 5. And Scream 6. So Scream 1 there's only one. No. No, there's two. There's one in Scream 3 and like three in Scream 6. But clearly this is not a Scream spoiler special

47:06Chris Hewitt:either. No. No, it's not. Alright, but let's talk about the murder mystery itself. Four people die in this Monsignor Wicks carks it killed by well I guess Dr. Nat right so Dr. Nat kills Monsignor Wicks I really hope people listening to this have seen the film we're so sorry yeah the second person to die is Samson yep the second person to die is Samson Thomas Hayden Church's character killed also by Dr. Nat then Dr. Nat is killed by Martha and then Martha dies Glenn Close's character administered by by her own hand. It's a fairly tricksy, topsy-turvy murder mystery, this one, obviously riffing on the idea of the locked room murder, the impossible murder.

47:57Chris Hewitt:Were you satisfied with the central murder mystery in this? Were you at any point ahead of the film, ahead of Benoit Blanc? Did you figure things out? What was going on?

48:06Ben Travis:With these, I certainly didn't. I felt the prestige was less impressive than the previous two. I don't think it was a bad reveal this isn't a spoiler special for the prestige it's not a spoiler special for the prestige either but I didn't the big reveal I was like oh okay that's fine complicated complicated fine but it didn't it wasn't one of those amazing dominoes falling oh my god kind of moments which you kind of want the little flourish it was so overly complicated I'm struggling to piece it all together how did it work again

48:37Chris Hewitt:what are you struggling to piece together I've seen it twice so am I to be able to help so he no I can't help you there he drinks the thing he drinks his little flask he drinks the little flask in the little room yeah Monsignor Wicks goes back to his what do you call it a little room I mean Heidi Hall I don't think that's okay it's not a sacristy is it like it doesn't look like a sacristy you're asking the wrong person it's basically a cupboard yeah it's a cupboard the cupboard of Christ

49:03Ben Travis:sure the cupboard of Christ compels you Indiana Jones and the cupboard of Christ I want to see that film this is not an Indiana Jones spoiler special

49:11Chris Hewitt:he goes back to the cupboard of Christ he drinks the little flask he drinks that which has been drugged by Dr. Nat falls to the floor but he's only out cold properly out cold, properly drugged I did wonder why none of that showed up in an autopsy a little odd, yes did they do one? I would imagine they would have had to I mean you would think but anyway maybe it's a drug that disappears from your bloodstream pretty quickly. Sure. Okay, so let's go with that. So then, what are you bumping up against then after that? I'm just struggling to remember. So then Nat goes in and stabs him. Goes in while Martha distracts everyone by falling over and pushing over the cross.

49:56Chris Hewitt:Everyone turns around for just long enough for Dr. Nat to swap out the devil's head which has been sewn into his garments by Martha but is so light he doesn't feel it because it's a hollow head. But then Dr. Nat takes the other devil's head which he's taken from the bar run by Noah Segan yes stabs him with it yeah and that's the killing blow but obviously he's out cold he's unconscious he doesn't feel it so the other head

50:19Ben Travis:wasn't sewn on very well because otherwise he'd have had to have been unpicking it and that would have taken time yes so he had to rip off the other

50:26Chris Hewitt:which is why there were little threads little red threads on the floor yes okay so are we good so far? yeah and the reason that Dr. Nat did that is because is because a number of reasons one they were I think disillusioned with with with Jefferson Wicks because he's a I don't want to say a c**t wow is what I was going to say but I'm obviously going to beep it out because he's a man of the cloth and I wouldn't want to be disrespectful even though he is a c**t but a holy one

50:56Ben Travis:yes a holy c**t we got a title for the podcast oh boy it's kind of making me

51:05Chris Hewitt:want to say it no Ben no don't Don't. Let me go to hell. Okay. I'll take the bullet for you. Drag you to hell. Yes, I'll drag myself to hell. So when that meeting with Jefferson Wicks has with the church, the holy rulers of the church, and he says, I'm going to burn you all to the ground. Yes, that's right. And he threatens Dr. Nat directly with ruining him because Dr. Nat's a drunk. He's an alcoholic and he's been treating people whilst drunk and he's going to have them struck off and all that sort of stuff. So that's Dr. Nat's motive. Martha's motive is that she thinks he's defiling the church, essentially, and is greedy and horrible and has got to go.

51:49Chris Hewitt:He's got to go. Anything else I can help you with before we talk about the rest of the film? Samson. Samson is in love with Martha. Where's Ryan Johnson? I'll see if I can get it. So Samson is in love with Martha and would do anything for Martha. So Martha ropes him into the plan to lie on, they swap him over, they swap the body over. So he's going to lie in there and then resurrect himself. And then therefore they're going to believe that Monsignor Wicks has returned and therefore he's going to be a miracle and that'll help revive the church's fortunes. But poor Samson, of course, he'll do anything for Martha.

52:28Chris Hewitt:But he doesn't reckon on the corrupting influence of the Eve's apple, the jewel that is retrieved from inside the body of the original priest of the church. I guessed that that was there. That's the only thing I guessed. Did you? I did not guess that.

52:43Ben Travis:Yeah, that was the only thing I guessed.

52:44Chris Hewitt:Okay. Even now, I'm just guessing. But I think that's pretty much what happens. And then obviously, Dr. Nadd wants to bump off Martha, and so he drugs her tea, but in a classic murder mystery switcheroo. She switcheroos it. Yeah. and he dies. And she melts him. She melts him. She melts him down. Hardcore. You can only tell it's him because we get to see his ring earlier on. I would argue as well, I don't think Jeremy Renner gets enough to do, especially since he is one of the killers in this movie, and Glenn Close gets a lot to do. Well, he spends a lot of time making hot sauce, so he really did have the bandwidth.

53:24Chris Hewitt:But, you know, given that, I just thought maybe he would have had a couple more standout scenes, maybe. but that for me is a murder mystery he did himself essentially come back from the dead I mean thematically casting him is a masterstroke yes so like his heart stopped a couple of times during that ordeal it's as detailed in his book so yeah wake up dead man so you know it's a very good piece of casting but also it just reminds you that he can be very fun he's not had a chance to do that much recently I wonder if Ryan was like any other Hollywood actors who've died briefly and come back but I could just fill my cast with them.

54:01Chris Hewitt:You know, like Tarantino when he filled, you know, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood with loads of Nepo babies trying to make a wider point.

54:07Ben Travis:It's like Rian Johnson goes full flatliners. Yeah, like, could you just, if you just die for five minutes,

54:13Chris Hewitt:I promise I'll bring you back. It's impossible. It is possible. Anyway, any more questions? I can answer anything. No, I just wanted to be clear in my own mind. All right, good, good, good. It's a couple of months since I saw it. Helen, you're the smartest person in most rooms you go into. I don't know about that. Obviously not this one. Of course. But were you ahead of it at any point? Were you guessing stuff? Because you like to guess. Don't you like to try and outfox the filmmaker? I don't mean to. It's just a genius at work. I'm usually very bad at whodunnits. I kind of guessed about the jewel being in the tomb because I felt like that was being signaled.

54:49Yeah, right. But everything else was very up in the air for me. And I had no idea how the locked room bit itself worked. Okay. until, well, now.

54:59Chris Hewitt:Were you satisfied with the solution once it was revealed to you? Yes, it wasn't as satisfying as the first one, maybe, I would say. But I enjoyed it. But it very much was one of those ones which had to be explained to me. I had not put enough of it together to even have an outline. It just didn't feel like it naturally coalesced in the way that some of them do, if you know what I mean. Ben, what about you? I was not really guessing. I was mainly sort of checking it against the ideas that I had while I was writing the feature, where you've got bits and pieces and you know some of the characters, and you think, oh, I wonder how this might play out.

55:34But that was also something I spoke to Johnson about, was like, when you're constructing these, do you want to give people clues? Do you want people to be able to work it out? Is that a scary thing, to give people the clues that the audience then might be ahead of where you want them to be? and his answer was along the lines of to be honest it's a myth whenever mystery writers say oh i give you all the clues so that you can work it out it's not really true it's not really what you want people to do because also as he does in this film and in these knives out movies yes he is giving you a mystery but the mystery is less the point than the story and the characters and what that reveals about the characters and the sort of the journey that you go on across the course of the film and so the mystery yes is a big part of that but it is not a puzzle box to solve as a film it is an emotional experience to be felt that then has these mystery elements in it that allow you to tell the story of these characters that those things are kind of very intertwined which i thought was a really interesting and quite honest response because it does feel like there's a myth of like hey a good mystery gives you all the clues so that you can figure it out whereas inherently you kind of do have to hold stuff back because otherwise it's not a mystery there are things that you have to uncover for the story to make sense and people

57:00Ben Travis:are not stupid and people will see these things i think a good mystery doesn't give you all of the clues to solve it but it gives you enough foreshadowing that when you re-watch it you can see the pieces that are in plain sight, even if they're not properly indicated. But afterwards, you can look back and go, Mr. Police, I gave you all the clues. Yes. But I do think that, yeah, I think it's a very, very fine line that they have to walk, because we have seen those mysteries where they do give you all the clues, and it's super boring. And there is something slightly frustrating and sometimes almost cheaty feeling about the sort of, you know, some of these, like Sherlock Holmes and Poirot and Miss Marples and so on.

57:39where they're like, well, we have all the pieces. Obviously, it's obvious. I mean, and you feel like Poirot's, you know, idiotic best friend going, is it? My goodness, Poirot, you've done it again. Because like so often it isn't, there's a piece of the puzzle that is absolutely essential that isn't there to normal people. It simply isn't there to normal people. And it's only after you've been told that this fact or this person or this set of circumstances exists that you can put it together. I think what you kind of have to do is yes have it make sense in retrospect once you have all the pieces most of the time the satisfaction is from identifying which pieces matter and you can go back later and go I knew that thing she said earlier meant something but you can't really solve it.

58:24Chris Hewitt:The only thing I think that that clued me up about Glenn Close was the fact that she got a flashback and that was the only thing that she's the only character who's deemed significant enough to get a flashback we see she flashes back to the harlot whore ripping apart the church and we're seeing it very much from her point of view or what we believe is her point of view early on. And so I thought, okay, there's something going on with young Martha. Young Martha has seen something. Well, yes, I mean, that's a much more extensive flashback. But we get to see the doctor with his family. We get to see...

58:55Chris Hewitt:I don't really think that's... We get to see Kerry Washington's father bringing home... That's true, but I don't consider that to be in the same ballpark as the extended... Yeah, she gets a much more extensive... It's not quite as much of a red flag as it would be if she were the only flashback. Okay. Well, because it's not the same time. They're parceled out through the rest of the film, whereas Glenn Close gets it very, very early on. So I thought, there's something about Glenn Close. There's something about that character. Keep an eye on her. I want to get talking about the emotional impact of this film in a second, but here's a question that has occurred to me after my second view of the movie, is there a chance that Benoit Blanc has blood on his hands at the end of this film?

59:40Chris Hewitt:Because there is an indication in the film that he knows pretty quickly, he doesn't know everything, but he pretty quickly susses out what's happened and why it's happened. And he's kind of dancing around waiting for all the pieces to fall into place before he can absolutely do his big grandstanding finish. And in doing so, That gives Martha the time to go and kill Dr. Nat and then poison herself as well. There's a scene where he's, you know, we've got to get to Dr. Nats as quickly as possible. And he says something along the lines of damage prevarication or something like that. So, are we meant to think that Benoit Blanc has waited so long that two more people are dead as a result?

1:00:25Ben Travis:Well, he definitely could have saved Glenn Close from poisoning herself because he realized that was happening and made no effort to call an ambulance, so. he makes it very clear

1:00:33Chris Hewitt:that nothing would have helped alright fine there is no panacea yeah once I think that's a line I think he has but at the same time I think that's something that's interesting about Benoit Blanc he is a detective he's not a policeman he has no duty in particular he is brought in to unpick the mystery and see if he can figure out the crime but he doesn't have that like jurisdiction necessarily to intervene necessarily and I think there are through these films you see I believe he would do that for Marta and for Helen in the first two films and he would do that for Judd if Judd was in danger he sees who is clearly extremely innocent and who is deserving of maybe additional care he picks up waves and strays doesn't he but I think also there's a certain level of like he lets this stuff play out.

1:01:31It's not really his place.

1:01:33Ben Travis:He is a passive observer of the truth. Exactly. And also, until he has the whole picture, if he went around, you know, accusing people too early, he might only have got one of the killers in this movie, for example. If he went too early. This is it. He's very much like Ash from Pokemon.

1:01:53Chris Hewitt:Is he a detective Pokemon? Yes. People are so obsessed with Benoit Blanc teaming up with the Muppets, but Benoit Blanc crossing over with Pokemon Detective Pikachu. And crucially, this is not a Detective Pikachu spoiler special. It should be. It should be, yeah. All right, first question on our end. Was a Pokemon Detective Pikachu movie spoiler special? Does anyone remember anything about that film? Yes. Yeah, I just... Fucking spoilers, but I think Bill Nighy did it and he like brain swaps with a Mewtwo. That's correct. It's insane. Now, is Mewtwo the final form of that particular part? Pokemon?

1:02:30Yes, because it evolves from Mew, which is like a cute little pink one. Alright, okay.

1:02:35Chris Hewitt:Okay, that's all the time we have, I'm afraid, for our

1:02:38Ben Travis:Detective Pokemon. What's it called? Pokemon Detective. I don't believe you. I think it was Monferno all along. Anyway, back to

1:02:48Chris Hewitt:Benoit Blanc. So, yes. I think there's an element of trying to catch them all and that may have made him hesitate. I think also his attitude to religion and his kind of wariness of getting drawn into the beliefs of these people actually kind of plays a part. I think he thinks, you know, there's some crazy shit going on here and I think he's almost watching it play out and hoping that they'll fall flat on their faces a little bit. I think that might be part of it as well. You know, this idea that they are trying to create a miracle, I think offends him on an almost cellular level. And I think there's an element of trying to...

1:03:29Chris Hewitt:tread wary around that and not let them get away with that either um the the i think i think ryan johnson treads exactly the right line in terms of religion i think there are people like judd who have a very sincere belief that leads them to become better people themselves and to help others and then there are people for whom belief is toxic not only to themselves but to everyone around them which i think is more the the sort of josh brolin character and i think he is absolutely right to give Blanc himself a diatribe against the Catholic Church in particular and religion in general. I think that's 100 % justified if you look at the history of the world and the present day.

1:04:11And I thought that was a nice mix. I think it is important to have both of those things in any discussion of religion, actually. That on the individual level and in terms of there being people who are very religious who do great things as a result, I think that is important to acknowledge. And it is also important to acknowledge that people have done monstrous things in the name of religion.

1:04:33Chris Hewitt:Name one. we don't have that much time we don't have much time but you know so I thought it's not having its cake and eating it I think it is showing two important sides of the same coin yes and I thought that the film did a beautiful beautiful job of that and it doesn't condemn necessarily it doesn't condemn the search for religion but it does or the search for meaning or the search for you know a better life and a better way of living but it does condemn people who as a result of that search are bad to other people, I think. It has a lot of compassion for the solace that people find in religion.

1:05:10It's the people who are twisting it and who are using religion as a tool rather than who are finding it as a guiding principle for their lives. There's a distinction there between those sections of characters in the congregation here. Honestly, I think that is the triumph of this film for me. I agree that some of the ensemble characters don't get as much time to shine, that there isn't as much of a flourish in the like, haha, here's who did it moment. but the line that it constantly writes of being so respectful to the nature of religious belief and having that be a core part of certain characters whilst never undermining that whilst also having Benoit Blanc as somebody who at his very core does not believe in any of these things he searches for rational truths to things and that is his perspective that he is changed somewhat by this experience and challenged maybe in his perception of things without it also going, well, maybe Ben Welblung does believe a little bit in kind of Catholic religion now.

1:06:25It doesn't do that. That would be such an easy way out. I don't think it comes close. I don't think there was ever a chance of that because I think he's, again, too smart a guy. The mutual respect that him and Judd have for each other and the way that it paints that, I think is incredible. But also the idea of the moment of, you know, he talks about it as a moment of grace that he extends at the end. Yes. It's not about, you know, he comes to believe she's right, he comes to respect her views, anything like that.

1:06:52Chris Hewitt:And he certainly doesn't believe a miracle has happened. He knows exactly what's happened and why. In that case, I don't think his beliefs have been, or his perception of things has been altered. No, but I think his perception maybe of, I think it gives him a bit more grace, again, to the religious. I think Judd is a really good example of someone who religion has made a better person, or at least his beliefs have led him to try very hard to be a better person. It's not punchy, though. Yes, but that's not necessarily bad, given the people he's punching.

1:07:22Ben Travis:Fair. There it is frowned upon in the priesthood, as is my understanding. Yes, and they make that clear. But this is like, you know, what he's saying is, there are good people among you, and I think he's giving them a bit more credit for that than maybe he did at the beginning of the film, actually. So I think there's a little bit of, again, kind of sympathy being extended there. I don't think for a second he ever thought it was a miracle. I think he was determined to prove that it wasn't and just, you know, for a moment challenged by his inability to immediately do so. But I don't think he ever seriously thought it was a miracle.

1:07:53Chris Hewitt:No, but what I'm saying is that, you know, because I know Ben has a big Indiana Jones theory about Benoit Blanc, and certainly Indiana Jones in Raiders and The Last Crusade goes from non-believer to believer. And I don't think Benoit Blanc ever goes to believer. at any point in this movie. But that's a different, that's a very different context. Yes, it is. But he does feel, he does see in Judd something that changes Blanc fundamentally and stops him from, you know, right on the brink of doing his big show-stopping Belmont Blanc. I'm going to explain it all to you in a really weird Southern accent.

1:08:28Chris Hewitt:Yes. Which I thought was really, really beautiful and really lovely. But that's what I'm kind of saying. Like, I think it's a decision that he makes to extend grace, to extend an opportunity to go out on her own terms, frankly, to Martha. I think that that is him kind of changing. That is him deciding to be the bigger person to a degree. Interestingly, though, that she commits suicide because that is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church. Well, I think she's in for a penny, in for a pound, right? Once again, she melted Dr. Nat.

1:09:02Ben Travis:Yeah. He did try to kill it, though. yeah I mean I feel like in terms of strictly theological she's heading down in for a penny in for a pound anyway I would say she's going somewhere hot yeah but she is meant to be a zealot and zealots historically have committed murder but not necessarily committed suicide in the Catholic tradition at least I did find that a little unusual

1:09:30Chris Hewitt:but it is meant to be a slightly corrupted form of Catholicism anyway, to be honest, that she's been raised in all these years in the Brolin family. In the Brolin, Brolin, Brolin. No, I didn't, yeah, I didn't really bump it out too much, but it gives her a nice, nice big, big old speech, doesn't it? Lovely, lovely Glenn Close. Yeah, never won an Oscar. I wonder if she'll be nominated for this. I don't know. I don't think so. I haven't seen it in the Oscar conversation. There is another scene, I wanted to talk about before we talk about our boy Benny Blanc from the Bronx which is the scene and I think in many ways it's the most pivotal scene of the film and it's the scene where Judd is so caught up in trying to solve the murder mystery with Belmont Blanc he calls up this woman Louise for information about who ordered the construction equipment to open the tomb that can only be opened from the inside and then Louise begins to ask him for help as a priest and suddenly all that stuff just fades away.

1:10:36Chris Hewitt:And it's a really unexpected moment of grace, I think, in this film, which at the moment that Judd and Benoit Blanc come together to start doing their investigation becomes a kind of wackadoodle buddy comedy for a little while and then switches gears in that moment. I was really taken by it. It's a great scene. Yeah, that has to be one of the very best scenes in the film. and the tonal shifts that occurred during the course of that scene are so masterfully done because even as that phone call begins, there is humor there in Benoit Blanc's exasperation of Judd not being able to get to the point and he's waiting for the answers and he's agitated.

1:11:17And then the transition point to Judd slowing things down and taking the time to have that conversation while you've still got a bit of Benoit Blanc's impatience and seeing then that mellow, the way it is played is just incredible. And that's a choice that Benoit Blanc, if Benoit Blanc was making that call, well, she wouldn't really be asking him for spiritual guidance. But if she had have done, he wouldn't have had time or capacity for that. And seeing this other character be able to offer that to this person who clearly needs help and to put everything else aside is not just a demonstration of the good things that religion can do for people, but also is just something that in the course of solving this murder mystery, Benoit Blanc is such a solution-oriented person, and to have a character who sees that there is also stuff going on beyond the bubble of this murder mystery, and to make time and space for that for somebody in need, is, I think, a big moment for him.

1:12:25I think that creates that moment at the end with Martha. Yeah, I agree. I think it's a really important scene, and I think it's the kind of thing that wouldn't have been included in 99 out of 100 films, maybe 999 out of 1 ,000. I think it's a really good moment because it shows also something that hasn't always been clear in the film and that maybe the film hadn't had time to fully, honestly establish, which is that Judd as well as being a good man is a good priest you know because we've seen him sent to this toxic parish that is under the control of this very toxic man and he hasn't had a chance to do a lot of ministering and we haven't seen that side of him fully kind of in action so I think it's important from from just a character point of view but I do think yeah what you're saying is right about it being an important moment kind of thematically as well because because Benoit Blanc is a very compassionate character.

1:13:20That's how he's able to read people. He has empathy. He understands a lot of people's motivations, what people are going through. But he doesn't necessarily, as you say, take the time to then sit with someone, to let them pour their heart, to really listen. He's looking for this clue and this clue, and I have this question and this question and this question. And so it is a different way of working. It's a very different moment than he would, as you say, have allowed. and I think that's really key because it shows that Judd isn't just a sort of a hanger-on in the way that many of Poirot's friends are lots of people that Miss Marple picks up he is a priest, he has a job to do and he's still trying to do that job to the best of his ability even in these horrific circumstances and in a very subtle way that is maybe one of the interesting structural points in the film because in hindsight you look at that scene and go, that's the point of the film.

1:14:18What Judd does in that moment is really the ultimate point of all of this. At the same time, not only is he putting a pause on his and Benoit's investigation to make time for that, effectively, the film stops for this character to have their moment. Everything else stops. You are caught up in the mystery, and he's going to call the thing, and they're finding this, and they're working together. The film stops, not just the investigation for that moment to happen and in the moment you kind of feel yourself understanding what they're doing and going oh wow this is an unexpected moment and wow this is really tender and the conversation that these two are having is so touching and then the film picks up and it continues and rather than let it be a characterful diversion it is the point of all of it that's brilliant and emotional It's brainy and hearty all at the same time.

1:15:14Chris Hewitt:All the food groups are covered. Jimbo. So, I've seen a lot of people say that this is a very dark film, a very serious film. And it is. I don't know whether it's the darkest. Knives, a Benoit Blanc mystery. But I think people are overlooking that it's also very, very funny.

1:15:36Ben Travis:I don't think it's a dark film from a tonality point of view. I think it's maybe dark in that there's sort of nighttime and thrashing storms and lightning, and it has a kind of gothic stylized look to it. But I don't think the themes are dark. I mean, obviously, it's about murder, which is kind of dark, I guess. But no, it's as funny as you would like. It's not as overtly comedic as Glass Onion, which is a riot from kind of end to end. And I would say it's probably the least comedic of the three, but that's not to say it isn't comedic. I don't think it's a sort of dark and serious film. I think it has a certain palette that it uses that maybe makes it feel that way.

1:16:13Ben Travis:But I was having a whale of a time. This for me, this was a good time at the movies. It wasn't just entertaining. It was fun. I guess dissolving people is a bit more violent than we've done before. I mean, Helen, is it? I would say yes.

1:16:24Chris Hewitt:It seems fine. Really? She's a frail woman in her 70s. How is she dragging Dr. Nat into that bath? There are entire economies based on the lifting power of little old ladies in black dresses. This is true. I do like that bit where the corpse of Jeremy Renner thumbles, thumbles, that's not even a word, thumps down the stairs and just kind of do it like Tom Hanks and the Burbs, but only with a dead guy instead. Very, very good indeed. But yeah, I think this movie is hilarious. I do genuinely think it's hilarious. I think it's funnier than Knives Out. And I think it's high points comedically are better than the high points in Glass Onion, which is a funnier film overall.

1:17:05Chris Hewitt:you know it's essentially a comedy from beginning to end only with a really compelling murder mystery at its centre but you know I was making a list the other day of the gags that just destroyed me no that's the that's the well I was going to say it's a jolly man with a white beard but that's what's in your wicks isn't it I guess he's pretty jolly you know at times he's pretty jolly I mean and he provides some of the funniest moments when he's describing his masturbation routines to frankly mortified Father Judd only to find out later on he can't even get a direction you know so I don't know what's going on there but there's the rocket ships guy where Martha goes these young boys painting her rocket ships on the tomb there's Martha's first appearance behind Judd where Monsignor works he goes I see you've met Martha and he goes what?

1:17:57Chris Hewitt:and she appears from behind him and he just shits his pants so good some of the all time great Benoit Blanc moments are in this. The scooby-dooby-doo. Scooby-dooby-doo. Outstanding. The bit that cracked me up no end was when he starts the car and Skimbleshank starts blasting out at maximum volume. I love that just one of the core little bits of Benoit Blanc lore that has been casually established across these three films is that he is like a big musicals guy

1:18:28Ben Travis:because he's listening to... What's he listened to on his iPod? It's definitely Sondheim, but I'm not sure what song it is. He's obviously zooming with Sondheim, playing Among Us at the start.

1:18:41Chris Hewitt:With, by the way... Yo-Yo Ma as well, right? Yo-Yo Ma, Natasha Lyonne. No, Yo-Yo Ma is in a different scene. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Natasha Lyonne, and Angela Lansbury in that scene. That is genuinely genius. Because if people don't know, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has written Murder Mysteries. If they don't know, he's written Sherlock Holmes novels under his own name. Well, Natasha Lyonne is an interesting one because obviously Poker Face has now been cancelled after the second season.

1:19:05Ben Travis:No! But does this give him more bandwidth to focus on Benoit Blanc? No, because they're shopping have you not heard the other part of that? Tell me. They're shopping around Poker Face for a season three. He is. Replacing Natasha Lyonne with Peter Dinklage. What? Yeah, it's weird. I can see that. I don't quite know. They're saying this was sort of always the plan and we would do two seasons and then we would switch out I don't know if they would literally still call him Charlie Kale, and you just pick up and you just accept as a viewer that this is Charlie Kale, and that is a name that many characters or versions of that character can have.

1:19:45But yeah, Natasha Lyonne is not going to be part of it. The Natasha Lyonne bit in Glass Onion was filmed in her set trailer on season one of Poker Face. There we go. A little bit of trivia. I would say, though, there's a difference between listening to Sondheim, which 100 % makes sense for this character because he's like smart person in musicals.

1:20:06Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And listening to Cats which as we all know is shit. But that's the incredible like guilty pleasure blast it in your car. You don't want anyone to know that you were singing Skimbleshanks on the way here. I mean... I just expect better of him. He's not infallible. He's not infallible. I don't... Yeah. I'm disappointed in him. But not surprised. Terrible people can like Andrew Lloyd Webber isn't that right James? I don't know what you mean. Are you a big Lloyd Webber guy? No. He mostly likes Les Mis. That's just Cameron Macintosh. Yeah. Okay. I thought you liked Lloyd Webber. No. You don't like

1:20:45Ben Travis:Lloyd Webber? I have nothing against him. I'd hang out with him if he was available. Would you want to have dinner with me? I'd say yes. Speaking of Phantom that also incredible moment with the blasting a brah brah brah brah on the church organ. Yes that was very funny. Just to get Judd to shut the fuck up.

1:21:02Chris Hewitt:I love also the moment where Judd thinks he's killed Samson, which is a part of the film, the sort of hallucinatory part of the film, which I'm not sure entirely works either, but it certainly disorients you and disorients Judd. And I love that bit where they're trying to find him and he wanders into the police station covered in mud about to confess and Blanc is just like, spins him around and swoops him out immediately. No confession for you. Again, I've only seen it once, so the sort of plot mechanisms of it, I need to view it again. I'm right here, Ben, I can help you out. But again, from a character level, for Judd to fear that he might have done something as somebody who is actively trying to be, as we said, a better person, but also know that he has a capacity for violence within him, I think is a really nice character note.

1:21:55Yeah, absolutely.

1:21:57Chris Hewitt:It's such a lovely moment as well. Oh God, what other great comedic moments are there? There's so much. I went to the church in this voiceover. There I was, young, dumb, full of Christ. That is such a good screenplay. I mean, we've talked a little bit about how incredible Josh O 'Connor is, but that is, I think, the power of Josh O 'Connor, that he can be so light and funny and charming, but then he can really ground the serious moments in that gravitas as well. The range that he displays in this film alone, let alone... Everything he's done for the last, well, like two years, he's been everywhere.

1:22:33I mean, I saw this and History of Sound in the same London Film Festival, which is a very different film. And also very beautiful, beautiful Josh O 'Connor performance. He is a good actor. Look, I don't mind. I've got to go ahead and say it.

1:22:47Chris Hewitt:Hell's bells. Taking the big swings here, guys. Oh, my God. Get off the fence for once in your life, honestly. All right. I am looking through the questions I'd written down to ask Ryan Johnson. There's a sentence where I go, the scene where Benoit, and then I just stopped.

1:23:09Journalism. We haven't, though, spoken about the scene where Benoit Blanc makes his entrance, which just had me hooting in my seat because it was so perfect. Judd praying in the church, and then behind him in holy light, the door opens and the silhouette of Ben Roblox appears and you're like ah these are the moments that just make you want to fucking stand up and applaud Rian Johnson and just be like yes and Daniel Craig should we take a moment

1:23:35Chris Hewitt:to talk about Daniel Craig and this is his third go around in this movie he is having so much fun I don't know whether I'd love to know whether were there days as Bond when he had fun I'm sure there was the odd day when he had fun as Bond but otherwise he had the you know I guess the weight of the franchise on his shoulders the weight of the world on his shoulders is quite a character that can be at times quite dour then he's suddenly letting rip with this ridiculous southern accent of his which I'm just absolutely head over heels in love with and getting to say the most ridiculous things when they're doing the autopsy or they're he brings Judd in to see Wicks' body and he's going wiggly wiggly wiggly he's going flip the meat oh he's slapping the body around

1:24:20Ben Travis:flip the meat it's just it's just Brilliant. That was the moment where I was like, okay, but then he's come back to life. Maybe it was a fake out because the body seems to have come back to life, but then it was like, oh, you've shown us him. You've shown us the body. Definitely dead. Yeah, that was important.

1:24:37Chris Hewitt:I did think that it was a fake out. I thought maybe he had come back to life in some way. It was all fake out. Maybe the knife was full of poison that slowed down his metabolism or something. Ah, yes, the Romeo and Juliet poison. Yes. If it was like his own scheme to like present himself as a messianic figure, that that's the next step in his plot to kind of have a stranglehold on this church and then take it further. I wondered if that was it for a while. I think we had to suspect that. I think that had to be part of the conversation. That seemed to be the way he was going as a character. Or did he contrive this himself for the same reason?

1:25:14You had to wonder for a second.

1:25:16Chris Hewitt:Indeed. Jimbo, you at the beginning said you were disappointed by the lack of Blanc. I was.

1:25:21Ben Travis:what we did get did you like? I did I am as I think you are entirely in love with that character I find him endlessly entertaining I delight in every moment he is on screen in every syllable that he utters so yeah it's wonderful you can't have too much of a good thing is what I'm saying did you like the new look? it's quite floppy it's quite floppy but yeah the hair that is? yeah that's right I mean look I can't speak to his tumescence that's beyond the scope of this podcast but the floppy hair was it was a look I liked it I was gonna say something not about any of that but you can look at a picture of Benoit Blanc in any of these films and know what the tone and feel of the film is just by looking at like how Blanc is presented and what he's wearing and what his sort of visage is this time around I love that I thought to be honest though it was gonna be more of a Benoit Blanc in turmoil movie

1:26:17Chris Hewitt:that very first shot that Ryan Johnson shared that he took a picture of Daniel Craig on set and he had the long hair and he had the kind of, it's not a beard, but it's like stubble, five o 'clock shadow. And it was dark, it was monochrome and oh my God, was it called Wake Up Dead Man at that point? Had the title been announced? I'm not sure, but there were certainly rumors that it was going to be sitting in and around a church and we're like, oh, this is going to be, he's going to be a blanc, something's gone wrong, Hugh Grant's left him. Hugh Grant's left him. He would never. He might do. I would hope not.

1:26:47Chris Hewitt:Who knows what Philip might do? But, you know, is he going to be a miserable Benoit Blanc? Is he going to have darkness in his heart? And then he walks in, wiggly, wiggly, wiggly. Scooby-doo-wee-doo. That's the great thing. They haven't fundamentally changed who Benoit Blanc is in any of these films. And yet you do feel like you get a little bit of something different out of him each time. But then they also are revealing more sides of the character without just giving you, like, Wikipedia backstory. Like last time felt like holiday, Bonne-Moi Blanc. Like, you know, this is him. You know, he's trying to have a good time.

1:27:23Look at his wardrobe, right? He is hoping at least for a good time. Maybe, maybe not.

1:27:29Chris Hewitt:In Glass Onion or this movie? In Glass Onion. Okay. In this movie, I get the sense more that he's irritated by all these people and what the fuck and they're stupid for believing in whatever they believe in. And kind of not quite they deserve what they get, but not a million miles off that either. you know this is like this is your own fault for being in a fucking cult you weirdos and I think that there's there's an element of him having to get past that irritation in order to be able to see clearly enough to solve the murder as well to solve the mystery and also just to you know have that too strong to call it a Damascene conversion in the last scene but to have that as we've talked about moment of grace and moment of compassion I love the lighting in that I talked to Ryan Johnson about that and the fact that you know they shot the exterior of the church which is in England.

1:28:18Yes, which was a bit obvious to me.

1:28:21Chris Hewitt:To you, but most people know, and most people, really? I mean, they'll think there's New York. No, I gather it was meant to be, I could tell it was meant to be East Coast. I'm like, okay, I know that there are older fashion there, and I know it's meant to be like neo-Gothic, but it just looked like Gothic, didn't it? I mean, really, when you get down to it.

1:28:42Ben Travis:It's all I can think about. Yeah, me too. It was quite distracting, wasn't it, Chris? My cousin's wedding reception was in that garden that Jeffrey Wright has the chat with Joshua Conner at the beginning. At the same time. At the same time, yeah. We all had to stand over to one side. Like, somebody left a champagne flute in frame. It was terribly distracting. I didn't know Jeffrey Wright was in this movie. Yeah. He was not announced, I believe. He wasn't. That was a little cameo. Obviously, American Fiction was a T Street production.

1:29:10Chris Hewitt:Part of the Johnson-Rambergman family. Cinematic Universe. so he also is in the pocket of Big Johnson okay so anyway the point the reason I brought the church up was to talk about the lighting I talked about this with Ryan Johnson in the interview but the way the lighting cues change I thought was really really lovely and really subtle and they could do that because they were on set in I think Shepparton maybe I'm maybe not entirely sure where they were but they were on set and that was a huge huge set and so therefore you know when the sun comes through and shines on him and he goes you know maybe I shouldn't do my grandstanding thing maybe I shouldn't do that to give you the holy light but then also to have moments in the flashbacks where it's like we're going to have full like lightning crash mega gothic vibes I would quibble with you use the word subtle but I really enjoyed the light in those moments yeah okay so one thing Benoit Blanc this will be our last thing one thing Benoit Blanc should have done to point him in the direction of the murderer or in this case murderers plural is to look at the IMDB because all he needed to do was check the IMDB of the cast of this movie and point his finger at those who have been in the Marvel Cinematic Universe because we are now four for four folks in this franchise the killer spoiler alert for Knives Out A Balmoral Blanc Mystery is Chris Evans aka Johnny Storm the Human Torch and also some you're a monster some American captain I'm not entirely sure I don't really recall the killer in Glass Onion A Balmoral Blanc Mystery was of course Edward Norton aka the Hulk himself the greatest the greatest most incredible Hulk of them all and the killers in this movie are of course Nova Prime and Clint Barton.

1:31:13Chris Hewitt:He's got good aim. Our second Avengers. I know. But I mean, yeah, but the victim was also a Marvel character. Well, the victims, everyone who dies in this movie and everyone who kills in this movie is from the MCU. So, Josh Brolin, of course, is Thanos himself. Samson, Thomas Hayden Church. Who can forget Flint Marco and his brief cameo in Spider-Man No Way Home that officially makes him part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It's true. And of course, Nova Prime and Clint Barton, four for four. Wow. So even the Marvel rule doesn't actually reveal the killer then? It helps you narrow it down. So you can immediately discount, well, it's tricky because you can discount Andrew Scott.

1:31:53Chris Hewitt:Kerry Washington you can discount, except that she's in the original Tim Story, Fantastic Four movies. That's right. And are laying now canon in the MCU. Who knows? Who knows? In fact, who cares? I don't know. But, you know, possibly. Who else? Darren McCormack hasn't been in the MCU yet. Kaylee Spaney who we haven't mentioned at all isn't in the MCU so yeah Mila Kunis you know no she's been hanging out with bees instead in that Wachowski's movie so there you go I don't know it's not a foolproof method but next time when there is one of these made and hopefully it'll be in another three or four years he's going to do something else next Ryan Johnson boring I mean probably not no it'll probably be brilliant but I'd rather he made nothing but these movies for the rest of his life.

1:32:41I think you say that, but then you'd be like, oh, I wish he'd also made some other things. No, I don't. I want, I'm with James in this.

1:32:47Chris Hewitt:I want nothing. I want a factory line of Benoit Blanc. That's what I want. Look, he can do his next thing, which he said is a 70s-ish political thriller with a light sci-fi element. Love it. Then do another Knives Out. Then do the Star Wars trilogy. Then do another Knives Out. All right. Agreed? I'll permit those. But he has to make a Knives Out in between Star Wars. Yeah. Yeah, so Star Wars, Knives Out, Star Wars, Knives Out. That sounds like everything I want to watch. And if he wants to cross the streams of a Benoit Blanc Star War. Oh my God. Darth Blanc. May the Force be with you. That's quite good, isn't it?

1:33:28Everyone's quite good at a Blanc. Helen? I suspect.

1:33:36well getting Helen

1:33:39Chris Hewitt:did an impression this podcast is a victory in itself I would say and I think a great note on which to end that is it for our wake up dead man a nice Balmoral Blanc mystery sported special hope you guys enjoyed it there will be more sported specials coming your way including Avatar Fire and Ash this could be very very exciting and then we're going to be taking a little break over Christmas and then we'll be back in January with more spoiler specials. What are they? I don't know. But continue to subscribe anyway. So thanks for that. And in the meantime, all that remains is to say goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning.

1:34:19Chris Hewitt:Scooby-Doo-Boo. It's James Dyer. Wiggly, wiggly, wiggly. Wiggly, wiggly, wiggly. It's goodbye from Detective Pikachu Pokemon. What is it? Pokemon Detective Pikachu? I forgot it instantly. You said it to me and I still forgot it. Benoit Travis, flip the meat. I cannot speak to the tumescence. Everyone stop saying tumescence. It's too upsetting. Hell's bells? Pika Pika. Choo! That was my favorite Benoit Blancline. I was just going back to Detective Pikachu. Yes, yes. The thing is, It's really shot as like an authentic noir movie. It is, yeah. It's really good. But it's fucking Pikachu with a Ryan Reynolds voice.

1:35:08Yeah. And it's Catherine Newton and it's Justice Smith. Justice Smith is on delightful for a minute. It's lovely. It's a great movie.

1:35:15Chris Hewitt:I enjoyed that film, actually. I enjoyed that film. Yeah, good twist. Great, strong. But my little niece and nephew can watch it. Like 10 out of 10, no notes. I mean, they're not really discerning, are they? Have they seen Wake Up Dead Man? Sorry, Wake Up Dead Man. Not yet, but I hope to show it to them over Christmas. probably not with the dissolving person you don't see the dissolving person you see bits of it yeah that's not not better a skull coming out of the the skull coming out of the green goo might be scary yeah I think that might be scary alright well listen it's time for me to shove off not shuffle off that's a different thing uh shove off it's goodbye from me uh I just got a new car and I'm gonna sit in it and I'm gonna play Skimbleshanks the railway cat until my heart's content so which is not very often so about a second Because I fucking hate that song.

1:36:00Chris Hewitt:Fucking cats. And I hate that musical. Stupid cats. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye. Floop to meet. Wiggly, wiggly, wiggly.

1:36:16Chris Hewitt:Imagine if Benoit Blanc had been Northern Irish. That would have been... I suspect I'll play. There's a hole in my donut. I genuinely do kind of wish they'd done that thing where they change his accent every film. Just inexplicably. Just never address it. That would have been amazing to what it would have been. It's just dumb. Compels me, though! Right, here we go. Scooby-doby-doo.