Wicked For Good ft. Jon M. Chu

22:01So it's always been this like monster of an idea that I'm like, I love that this poster is so famous and it never happens. And then the question is, what are they whispering to each other? What kind of secret is she telling each other? Or is that the nature of friendship that we're telling each other things and it doesn't matter what they're saying, that they're sharing. And I just loved that idea. And this was always a story about, yes, about the world and about the things, the bigger stuff, but about friendship. And friendship is done many times in movies. Romance is done all the time. You get marriage, you have babies.

22:39It's easy. They lived happily ever after. But friendships are more difficult. Friendships, it's not as interesting in terms of story-wise because it's up and down. It's a journey. And it's about consistency. It's about being there. It's about you're going to have fights and it's about forgiveness and then showing up again. It's just always showing up. And I just loved that we got to explore friendships, which are so present in our lives on multiple levels with multiple people. And during COVID lockdown, when we're developing it again, was this moment of like, who are my friends? Who would I call in this moment?

23:16When I'm in New York and I got to get back to LA, who do I call that has the agency to get me there? Who am I going to hang out with? Who are we going to have our bubble with? Like all this stuff was happening and we had to question ourselves. And so for good, it was getting down to the truth of these beautiful Stephen Schwartz words that we were already there about how true friendship can be. And it wasn't about the big spectacle. Was I thinking, oh my gosh, this is the finale of a giant two-part musical event in cinematic history. And this is the last song. Let's bring that technocrane in and swoop around.

24:02And was I ready for that? Hell yeah, because I didn't know how it was going to go. But when the girls started singing it, rehearsing it even in the room, we just speak it before we sing it. It just became very clear. It has nothing to do with that stuff. Um, it was about them giving each other strength that I'm going to be okay. I love you and you're going to be okay. Even if deep down they were scared as hell about what was about to happen. It's like the world is burning outside, but they're going to give each other this last gift of strength, whatever was going to happen. The song technically in the show, if you watch it, it's the, it's the most constructed like a pop song.

24:47Like it has, it's very, it's not a musical song. Musical songs have a little thing they could do it. This was like verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, you know, all that stuff in it. And so it's a weird thing because it's the moment in the show where the two big actors come out and they sing. And so it's very much accepted as that. But in a movie, you can't just do that. And so it has to be scene driven. And when we saw that, and we just started covering it like a scene, It did everything. Now, edit-wise, Myron had to be very smart about, when do you, you don't want to leave someone's face. And if two people sing each other, you're only getting a profile, you're going to miss half their face and half their emotions.

25:21So when are you on one and when are you on the other? And when do you see the reaction to what someone says? That was all like months and months of film fucking to get to the right moments. But those girls, they deserved the moment to drive our movie at that moment. And so we gave them the space. And then that last whisper was about no matter what happens, they're off into their own lands and they know that they have the power to do whatever they want to do, but they have a choice to be that. It was a question, not an answer. Movie one, we give an answer. Be who you want to be. In movie two, it's a challenge.

26:06and the whisper to me was like no matter what you do friendships will that will always be the handprint on your heart and no matter what you said to them whoever you are wherever you are that that is the essence of being a friend i'm excited i always knew i wanted to do the whisper at some point and the end was made the most sense to me did you discover that in the edit that that was the best place to put it um we had we had done it at a couple places at the very end i just didn't know, is it the last image you see, or is it the second to last image you see, or is it the third to last? There was a version where when she opens up the grimmery and it flips the pages and it's all happening, she looks in and she like gets this like astonishing look on her face.

26:47And we smash cut to silence in this field. And we don't know why we're here. And then we see them in and it's silence. You just hear the wind and then she whispers to her. And then the music comes back wicked and you smash cut to to elphaba and she's looking up and she smiles and then she walks away and the walking away was the last image we had both different versions and we were debated over and over again but the fact was that i think i just wanted to the lasting impression was to be back in there in when they're the closest um and that there wasn't going to be any confusion like if you see it in the grimmery while that's happening, it almost feels like, well, was that magic?

27:29Was that a thing? Did that actually happen? But at the end, it was just sort of like this footnote. Like, no matter what happens, like, they have their life, and no one will ever have to know about that. The funny thing is, it was attached to that, and I'm not sure if people have talked about it yet, but the main on ends, you know, it's separate, it's the main on ends. But, for us, the feeling of leaving this movie was really important. And in movie one, it's a very slow, emotional, like you're healing from this giant moment of Elphaba flying into the sky. In movie two, it was like, well, I don't want to do that again.

28:02Even though we've just gone through this long journey, we're sort of emotionally exhausted. But no, this is about possibilities. Yes, they're going away. But just like E.T., the separation is the celebration because they're different people from that. So she's walking into the desert. Who knows what's around that horizon? And who knows what she's going to do with this Grimmery and with her magic and her newfound leadership abilities and who she knows of herself to be. So I want this song, I want it to be a different song. I want it to be the grand adventure is ahead. Let's make it like a space odyssey.

28:32Like as soon as it cuts out, like bam, we're in this thing. Like whatever is out there, they're gonna, we are excited for it. So that kind of hope actually does play into how you feel when you leave that theater. I wanted to talk about,

28:44Chris Hewitt:I wanted to talk about Bach of course, but I really want to talk about Fierro and the end with Elphaba. Obviously, many, many, many people have seen the stage show and will know that Elphaba doesn't die when Dorothy, that witch-killing psychopath, throws a bucket of water over her. But how conscious were you of preserving that as a reveal for the, I guess, again, millions of people who might not have been aware of that and of the Fierro reveal as well at the end? That's a great question. You know, I had the benefit of seeing Wicked before it was ever on Broadway. I was in college. My mom invited me.

29:26She was in San Francisco. They were showing it at the Kern Theater as sort of their run before they go out there. I didn't realize it was only for like three or four weeks. So I went with my mom. I saw it without knowing anything. So I know the feeling. It was a Stephen Schwartz new musical. And I remember being blown away like, oh, my God, this is Wizard of Oz. Oh, my gosh, that's Galinda. Whoa, that's a different Glinda than I ever thought. Oh, I never thought about what this character, oh, her name is Elphaba. Oh, oh, this is not the fairy tale. This is not a Disney fairy tale. This is a very different, this is subversive.

29:58Okay, let's go. Oh my gosh, she didn't melt. What the hell? Like I remember that feeling. So I come from, and I always tapped into being that person. So as much as I loved it in the years following, that first watch is what I crystallized in my brain as much as possible because I knew that a lot of this audience out in the world would experience it like that. So I had the benefit of two sides of the coin. And so when I knew when I felt shocked when the scarecrow entered the scene and when he knocked on the floor, I was like, wait, why is he not? And then the door opens. You're like, oh my, what?

30:40And I knew what it I felt like the pain of knowing that Glinda couldn't know. And there were things I wanted from that ending too. I wanted to know what's going to happen with Glinda. Does she have the power? Does she not? Because even if she does, what is she going to do? What does it take to have the power? Or she has to know herself? Or what does she have to accept? So that was my position. This is for any first-timer who watched this movie. I could not rely on, oh, we're going to just, the movie had to be bigger than just people who already know the ending to this. And by the way, you know, Scarecrow and Tin Man, those are all real makeup effects, real costumes.

31:21The amount of effort it takes to make a Scarecrow look warm and attractive and not like a scary serial killer. Where the burlap resolves itself, you know, a regular Scarecrow like comes out. But you're like, oh, that's his skin. Is that weird? Oh, we're going to have these stitches. So you know that it's that, oh my God, he looks so scary if you put stitches in. The amount of stitches, where they go, where they land was all talked about and debated. And we did many. But we had an amazing hair and makeup team and costume team, of course. And then visual effects, you know, did the joints and stuff and any sort of seams that we needed to do.

31:58But the hair, how does the hair lie? How, what do the eyes look like? You know, one of the things for the scarecrow that we had to make sure is we want her, we need to want her to be with this person we have to see johnny bailey in it so he has to be able to emote his emotions and so he had to get thinner and thinner and thinner the density of the barley how dense how not dense and he had blue eye contacts for fiero many people don't realize that and for scarecrow we took out the contacts because we're like let's just get him as close to johnny as we can get. And just taking that layer off really like, and we weren't using a wide, wide, wide lens to present this.

32:37I was like, I need to be right here. So whatever we do, we have to sell the hell out of this thing because I need to see her touch him in the same way that when she touches her skin, we're not like, oh, is it going to rub off on him? Like, no, it has to be so comfortable. And so when she touches his skin, it has to be so comfortable and we have to be able to do that on camera um so it's it was a lot of um it was a lot of effort by our whole all our crafts team which is probably the best part of the whole movie is that it involved many many people being on the same page of what story we're telling i love how you you foreshadowed as

33:08Chris Hewitt:well with the the the spell and you can see straw being flung around the around yeah i mean paul in the costume is doing crazy stuff with barley with with wheat and hay and all this stuff in the design of the of the old it's it's really incredible and you look at the hair just look at the hair pause on the hair and look at it it's amazing um this mix of what they did and even his eyebrows um it these people are insane and we did it all here in the uk you i don't think this is these creative craft people generations of people who've been studying this stuff even like the miniatures and then like i watched them paint these things by hand i watched them paint the the the butterflies on her dress by hand, just little lines.

33:51I'm like, I'm not sure we're ever going to see that in the, in the, in the frame, but I'm going to try. Um, so that was really beautiful to watch. Amazing. Generated. Let me play that. Uh,

34:04Chris Hewitt:John, I could talk to you for a lot longer, but sadly we're being wrapped up. Uh, but, uh, it's been an absolute pleasure, sir. And thanks so much for your time. Thank you. Okay. That was John M Chu, director of wicked for good. Before we get into this film specifically, let's talk about it in general shall we? Let's have some general thoughts on Wicked for Good it's done pretty well at the box office it's been out in cinemas for a couple weeks doesn't seem to be doing quite as well as the first movie does that indicate guys, perhaps, I'm saying I'm just saying, this isn't necessarily my opinion devil's advocate in it that this film is maybe not quite as good as the first one I would say yes to that wow wow you come in here like all guns blazing taking this film down right from the off I mean I think people who are fans of the stage show and I'm a very recent inductee to that I actually saw the stage show after watching Wicked part one for the first time but it's widely known or thought of that the stage show the second part of the stage show is not as good as the first part.

35:17And I think that carries over here. Wicked Part 1, that was my first introduction to this world. I really, really enjoyed it. And I really didn't feel the length of that movie at all. Here, it's a shorter movie than Wicked Part 1, but I felt the length in this.

35:39I said nothing.

35:40Chris Hewitt:I did not smirk. I did not blush. You did smirk. Come on, that is quite a revelation. You know, I think they frown upon that sort of thing. Certainly in cinemas. Or certain cinemas. It's fine. Which part were you referring to in particular? Was it the sexy Jonathan Bailey scarecrow? You should always feel that. Oh, boy. You know, I haven't done any Empire pod in two months. I think I've forgotten how to act and how to do it. Now you remember what.

36:11Chris Hewitt:we're all having fun here we're all having fun anyway so Amon you were feeling your length I felt the running time you should have said that in the first place I would also say the first film there are four or five songs that are memorable bangers that you're humming as you leave the cinema here it ends on easily the best song in the film for good which is fantastic and Cynthia and Ariana amazing but that's really the only song that's properly stayed with me the new songs they're okay I think the one that Glinda gets is better than the one that Elphaba gets oh I'd say the opposite ooh interesting excited to get into that but they don't have they don't get to a level of a popular yeah a dancing obviously Defying Gravity is all time iconic I mean, you're ending that first film on such a high.

37:09Chris Hewitt:Such a high, yeah. And there's nothing. It is, sadly, second act syndrome. Yeah. I'll also just say, like, the first film, in part because it's all focused on she's university for the most part, all the characters are together. Yeah. And Elphaba and Glinda, who are the not-so-secret source of this film, because Cynthia and Ariana are incredible. They have so many scenes together. They feel like they're going on a journey together, and we see that when they're having scenes opposite each other. Here, it feels like scenes between Elphaba and Glinda are fewer and further between. And that's an issue for me because nothing else can sort of fill that void and get to the level of them when they are together.

37:54But again, when they are together, Cynthia and Ariana are still the absolute reasons why I do recommend this film and that people should see it because they are phenomenal. But this is, in every way, a weaker film than the first film for me. Jimbo, do you concur? It's hard to argue with any of that. I mean, I've spoken about this at length, I think, on the podcast. You felt the length at which I spoke. Oh, no. It's entirely possible I cut it out. It is entirely possible. But look, yeah, the first half has the good plot bits, the first part has the good character bits, and the first part has the good song bits.

38:26So there's not that much left. This isn't as strong a story. Narratively, the songs are a little bit more generic and a little bit more bland and the central pairing, which as Mon correctly says, they are the power of this film. They're separated for most of it. So, yeah.

38:41Chris Hewitt:Yeah, this is the film's, the film's chief central love story is Elphaba and Glinda. Obviously, that's platonic love, but it is nevertheless the love story that powers this movie and it is not for me. And I enjoyed this film. I did enjoy this film. I didn't love it the way I loved the first one. I genuinely flipped for the first one and you did not expect to I didn't expect to I went in I almost had to be dragged into the cinema well I was the same because I don't like the stage play all I'd heard was excerpts of the songs my wife went to see it and then she was playing Defying Gravity which you can say that's a certified banger and then I heard I knew one or two others but I didn't really know it and I was basically dragged by myself into that screening to prepare for the spoiler special for the first one.

39:35Chris Hewitt:And I was just, I came out dancing on air. Dancing through life. Sorry, sorry. And I think that there are some really great moments and great sequences in this. And I think John M. Chu is really working overtime to deliver a bit of visual pizzazz to this movie. But you can't get past, Helen, the fact that the girls, as he called them, are not together for most of the movie. They're not. But I think they've tried to get them together as much as possible and to make as much meat out of it when they are together as possible. And I think you are just hampered by the structure of the second half of the musical.

40:13Chris Hewitt:Because it has to conform to The Wizard of Oz. Because it has to, yeah. Because, because, because. And genuinely, if we could just lose the Tin Man and lose all the Nessa Rose and Bach stuff with it, I think that would immediately be a leg up. But that's kind of built into the musical and it's built into obviously Gregory Maguire's book before that. And so you can't entirely lose it, but it's so thrown away here that it also doesn't work as a dramatic and really as a horror beat. So you've just kind of fallen a little bit between two stills with some of those moments. I do think they did as good a job as they possibly could, probably with the second half of that musical.

40:51I think it was the right decision to give each of the leads a new song. I think that boosted the sort of musical content of that second half, and it wasn't just reprises all the time and then for good. I know there's a couple of others. I think No Good Deed is a banger, actually. I would say that's a banger. And the... I was going to say, what's the name of the one where she just speaks in magic speak? Yeah, so that one, like, my sister sings that all the time. That is a good song. While casting spells. While casting spells, yes. Why do you think I now have the body of an ape? But... Just to be absolutely clear, Helen is wearing a sparkly gorilla costume.

41:25Yes. She's starting a remake of Trading Places later on.

41:30Chris Hewitt:Oh, boy. But I think, yeah, you can get over the fact that they are all split up because that is the nature of the story, is that Elphaba is in exile and is off on her own, completely isolated. And there is no real way to do much more than they do in terms of getting her back to face people and confront people and talk to people, which they do pretty often for someone who is Oz's most wanted criminal by the way but they can't just have her there and you really feel the lack for me it was I didn't know about the I knew that Dorothy was going to be in it and I knew we weren't going to see her face and I knew that at some point we would probably be introduced to the Tin Man and the Scarecrow you didn't know who they were I didn't know I didn't know that they were going to do that is that not so when did you see the stage play I saw the stage play for the first time a few months after watching part one but I guess I you must have forgotten it just forgotten it you were like that's so fucking wild your brain just refused to accept it and just went no no no that didn't happen because I don't have as really a relationship with the original Wizard of Oz and I think that there are some people who will come into the film feeling that way who might be a bit confused about what they watch.

42:59Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I think so. I can't, as much as I like the first one, I can't really remember the lion being in it that much. Oh, he's a lion cub and they rescued him from a cage. Right. And it didn't make a huge amount of sense to me that he would then blame them for rescuing him, which he appears to do in this film. that was again a stretch that's maybe an example of the fact that the film has to contort itself with the knots sometimes to make The Wizard of Oz make sense and to make Elphaba good yeah or the villain yeah her heart's never in it so even that song she has the No Good Deeds song you're talking about you know I don't know that I bought it necessarily like Cynthia Reaver really gives it her all but I'm like you're not you're not evil no no but she's not I mean I don't think the song is saying she's evil I think the song is saying, for fuck's sake, people, I'm trying to help you.

43:51Will you let me already?

43:53Chris Hewitt:Yeah, that's true. Which does make sense to me. But I think even trying, what I'm saying is, trying to make it so she looks like the villain to Dorothy and Friends didn't entirely work for me. Because I didn't see that, certainly in the Lion's case, that didn't make sense. Certainly in the Scarecrow's case, even if his memories are Swiss cheese, like Sam Beckett, didn't make total sense. Oh, Bach. that was that was just not entirely successful but like I say I think all of this is coming from the show I think they did you know I mean once again you know the costumes are on point the production design is very very beautiful the acting I thought by pretty much all involved was very good the singing obviously off the charts especially with the two leads but not only with the two leads even someone like Michelle Yeoh who I think would be the first to say she's not a singer I thought she did perfectly well with what she had to do.

44:48Look, I mean, she's not a singer. I might push back a little bit on that. On the scale of Cynthia Erivo to like Clint Eastwood, you know. Is that where the bar is now? I mean, you can sing better than Clint Eastwood. She's doing all right. She's better than Paint Your Wagon.

45:05Chris Hewitt:Lee Marvin in that. Lee Marvin. But what a song that is. I was born under a wandering star. And he's really low. And if you were watching at Dolby, your head would explode like scanners that's true that would be amazing but also can I just say Michelle Yeoh did her Madame Morrible Wicked Witch thing for me when I talked to her for the feature of this so she's been doing that for a while I love that she has this one joke and she has embraced it with her whole heart and what is that God bless her she does puts her hands down to create an MM Madame Morrible what happens if you turn that upside down Wicked Witch what Madame Morrible the true wicked witch of the Wizard of Oz.

45:47Chris Hewitt:Oh, is that what happens? Yeah. All right, I wasn't paying any attention. That's a morrible history. Amon, do you want to push back further on this? Michelle Yeoh can sing. I didn't say she could sing. Well, that's what I heard. I said she did a credible job for someone who is not a singer. I guess she's fine, but... Whoa! Claws are out! Hold on one second. and I'm just getting an email from the PR who want to post a quote from me on the show. Well, I've got your poster quote already. I felt the length. I'm on Warren.

46:26That's not going on anytime soon, is it? Nope.

46:31Chris Hewitt:Welcome back. Thank you so much. Oh, wonderful. Isn't it wonderful? It is wonderful. It is wonderful. Anyway, so I did not see the Bach thing coming and that scene when it happened I was I was genuinely gobsmacked I was like what the fuck and now I understand why that scene the whole scene of the exchange with Nessa Rose begins with a close up of the axe because obviously then it's signposting he's going to become the tin man slash woodcutter and when he stomps out through the door like the robot lady from Superman 3 I can see a whole generation of kids being similarly traumatized by that as I was when Annie Ross turned into an evil robot lady in Superman 3.

47:16Chris Hewitt:I think Bach will be that for a whole generation of other people. And then Bach, obviously, naturally, he's very angry and he loses his memory and he tries to lead this uprising or be part of the uprising, obviously, in the film. I think the problem the film has is with Fierro and with the Scarecrow because, and I understand this is the same in the stage play. I haven't seen the stage play, but this is my understanding, that they also kind of hold back the reveal that Fierro and the Scarecrow are one and the same until he goes to the castle to rescue or just, you know, to retrieve Elphaba, which is clearly a plan that they had forged off screen.

47:55Chris Hewitt:You know, by the way, things are going to happen. I'm going to have to pretend to be melted by a little girl. If that happens, you can hide in one of the many, many, many places in my castle. And then I'm going to come. I may look slightly different. Do not be scared by that. But don't worry. it's all going to work out very very nicely I think the film slightly suffers from the fact that it has to withhold that reveal and it has to keep the Jonathan Bailey of it all to one side so you get shots in the revolt where you get close ups of Bach and he's looking absolutely insane and then you kind of just see glimpses of the scarecrow and that didn't work for me I think dramatically it might have worked if we the audience had been clued in that he was the scarecrow from pretty much because the clues are there the moment that he starts to transform you see that you know there's loads of grain and corn fills the screen so the idea is that she is her magic uses whatever's around yes in the environment so it's a very nature based magic is the idea but what would what would the audience have lost what narrative impact would have diminished if we had known that he was the scarecrow I guess I would argue little yeah maybe I think the thing that you lose is the idea that she is against Dorothy and friends.

49:15And, you know, I guess what changes is then you know that Dorothy has a man, or she has a man on the inside of Dorothy's team, I suppose, and that they are kind of, but then you don't know what state he's in. You don't know, you have to do a lot more explanation, actually. You know, okay, so how does he feel about what's happened to him? Is he now anti-Alphabet? Is he still pro-Alphabet? So you have to have multiple more scenes. You could have responded to that, I think, for narrative effect, right?

49:45Chris Hewitt:So if we had a couple of scenes, and yes, I am suggesting we make this film longer, but if you had a couple of scenes where we did see that Fierro was the scarecrow, you could have absolutely played with that. This idea that, oh, is he pissed off with Elphaba? What's that going to do for the inevitable moment when they meet? and then you have that reveal at the end. Actually, this was maybe not the Scarecrow part was part of the plan all along, but he's okay with it. And that maybe he was just playing a ruse, essentially pretending to people that he was angry with Elphaba when all he wanted to do really was get back to the castle and, you know, let nature take its course.

50:25Chris Hewitt:I feel at length. There's supposed to have been a note, isn't there? With the kind of scrap of cloth. There's supposed to be something scribbled on the reverse so that she knows the plan for them to meet up again. I think really yeah I think Chu talked about that that they discussed whether or not you needed to see it and he was like we don't need to complicate this any further but I think the idea is that he has communicated to her via the scrap of fabric which is brought to her yeah I guess I mean I guess we're meant to believe that just true love saved the day and that's how they found each other and worked everything out true love and body horror saved the day yeah a little bit a little bit what is her what is her listen I don't want to be accused of bringing the tone of the Empire podcast down here we go what is her future length right Like, what's he like down there?

51:09Chris Hewitt:Is it all just barley? Ribbed for her pleasure? Oh, well, hello. Hello. I mean, basically at the end of the film, they're living in some sort of desolate barren. I think the idea is that's the sort of land between worlds and they can go to a different world entirely. Okay, it's the end of Dune. It's basically, they're on Arrakis. It's even got the little sparkly shimmer of spice on the sand, if you look for it. It does have that. How will they subsist? Maybe she can eat him. Not like that, Helen. He's made of straw. She'd have to kind of mill him and turn him into flour.

51:43This is really upsetting. She'd have to strenuously

51:47Chris Hewitt:grind him into it. And then she can maybe make a pancake. I'm very intrigued. I want to see a spin-off. Even though, and this may be a controversial opinion, Cynthia Erivo, amazing. Jonathan Bailey, very good. They have zero chemistry. Yeah, that's accurate. That is accurate. they had some in the first one I mean they're never the central love story though and I don't think you ever really feel it do you? no but there's like there's some moments in the first film where I was like alright he sees something in her that nobody else does I get it you know he's Bridgertoning hard like fine in this one I do think there was less I did like that they were a bit non-obvious with the sort of sex scene I did appreciate that they were going for something different but I'm not sure it 100 % worked but you know you don't actually need to see them both ripping off all their clothes like just having him take off his jacket and his tie kind of worked actually but steamy stuff seriously it can be but but yeah I did see you know the sex cardigan has been laughed at online and I think I think deservedly so if we're honest like I appreciate remind me of the sex cardigan so she basically is that what you're wearing right now it is my homage yes this is also shaggy and weird looking Amon just got his I don't know what this is your sex jumper I believe it's called a waffle knit you're wearing a waffle knit yourself am I?

53:10I just bought that

53:11Chris Hewitt:that's not quite waffle is it? I just bought this from TK Maxx yeah it's more of a basket weave this is probably 20 quid I'm wearing cashmere oh a bit of fancy oh yes yeah I'm wearing King Kong fuck y 'all King Kong you killed King Kong just for this jumper you skinned him so you could do this podcast this is outrageous anyway please explain the sex cardigan I don't know if I can explain the sex cardigan But Cynthia Revo did talk about it for the Empire feature. Yes. I would hope so. I worked very hard on that feature. Monster. She was basically talking about the fact that this is a sort of metaphorical nakedness, if you will.

53:48This is her, you know, letting her guard down. Describes my sex life as well. Carry on. James is a never -

54:00Chris Hewitt:Metaphorical nakedness. James escorted from cinemas up and down the land for feeling the length. Oh no. Okay, look. The sex cardigan. The idea is that she is showing vulnerability for really the first time. Certainly the first time, you know, that doesn't involve her friendship with Glinda. This is her really letting her guard down, letting someone see her in the way that she lives day to day, which is obviously wearing a big comfy cardigan instead of wearing essentially armor when she goes out on the room and she's sort of in like, not quite leathers, but kind of leathers. and sort of, yeah, ready for battle.

54:33So this is her showing a different side of herself and that's the idea. It was also very important to her that in that final scene where they're crossing the desert, she's in a sort of filmy dress. So you can see the green underneath. You can see her natural skin tone. So it's her at peace with herself as a person. She has done as much as she could to assure the future of Oz. She has done her best to rescue Fiero. She's done her best. She's given up and she's now just kind of embracing herself in a way she never has before so she's willing to show her own skin in a way that she hasn't before so that was really really important to Cynthia Revo and um and I couldn't get into all of that in the future a because there wasn't room and b because it was kind of a spoiler but um but yeah I thought that was really interesting everything was very very considered in terms of those kind of costume choices and and even the way like she was very involved in decorating that space that she lived in she was very involved in trying to figure out how how Elphaba would move through the world and and you know what she would do when she had her own space really for the first time so so i i do love those elements of like consideration in the costumes in the in the production design i think all that is still just off the charts in these films and beautifully beautifully done and i love how much effort everybody involved has put into these films i think you really feel it on screen i will agree with you on the production design and the design some of the cinematography though at times you can't even make out alphabet at all it's really them do it at times.

55:59I don't, I think that's been somewhat exaggerated. I think it's been shot for maybe IMAX and stuff and maybe not entirely. I didn't have that issue when I saw it. I really didn't. Where did you guys see it? I saw it at the Odeon Leicester Square at the premiere, darling. At the premiere. Same here.

56:15Chris Hewitt:Okay. Interesting. But I didn't think it was as bad as some people have been saying. I think that's kind of just gotten around a lot online. And people did side-by-side comparisons of this in the first film. They didn't look terribly different to me. and indeed this and The Wizard of Oz. But perhaps, you know... The Wizard of Oz always feels, I don't know, brighter. Yeah, absolutely, compared to this. The muted palette of these movies is interesting to me. Really? I think so, yeah. Not only in stages, because when they're at shears, it's pretty spectacularly pink and blue and gold and shimmery.

56:46Like, it's very bright and colourful.

56:47Chris Hewitt:I still think it's suffused. It's almost shot through a layer of gauze, in a way. I do get a CG glow sometimes, like when she was running across that field in the first movie singing about the wizard you're saying it wasn't real no but you know what i mean and i think sometimes that i find distracting but the but the overall cinematography and the overall look of the thing i think the visuals of this has been one of the things i like the most about it because my one of one of my many complaints about the stage play is that it's very flat and i don't think particularly visually impressive other than the you know the great big head thing um whereas i thought this remedied that for me and it really kind of popped to me it made me feel like I was there like it brought because you want Oz to be colourful you want it to feel larger than life and magical and fairytale like and I thought it did that very well but then again this film is showing that Oz is not like she's cracked up to be so maybe that's a darker side well when you go to the actual Emerald City yes there's more of a sinister feel to it certainly and I also think I think Elphaba's meant to be lurking in the shadows a lot more in this one like she is meant to be a little bit out of remove from us we're not meant to be quite as sure of who she is and what she's doing anymore, I think.

57:56She's a bit Batman-like at times in this film. Yeah, a little bit, actually.

57:59Chris Hewitt:She must have loved it. You were thinking five stars. Could Elphaba beat Superman? No. No. Well, no. I was dilly-dallying because magic is Superman's one of the few weaknesses. And the Grimmio, nobody should ever use that book, by the way. Bad things happen when you use the Grimmio. Yeah. What is the Emerald City made of, if not kryptonite? Whoa. Emeralds. Shut up, Helen. Yeah, the clue. I actually now think about it. Might have been in the name. No, I think it's just painted. I was thinking about the wizard, actually. Weirdly, today I was thinking about the wizard in terms of a metaphor for the US, genuinely.

58:45Yes, 100%. He's a showman, right? He's a carnival barker. He's a, you know, potion salesman.

58:53Chris Hewitt:Snake oil salesman. Snake oil salesman, right? And he comes to this magical new land, and they're like, oh my God, you're awesome. And he's like, thanks, I will be. And then the first thing he meets that's weird, which is talking animals, he's like, get the fuck out of here. And, you know, as metaphors for colonialism and imperialism and those kind of ideas go, it's a pretty powerful one, actually. I think it works really well. and it's a direct indictment of specifically American attitudes rather than elsewhere. So I thought that was, if we're talking about taming the American West, very much in inverted commas, I think that's an interesting approach.

59:34I'm intrigued because I suspect that you've read the book. Yes. How much in the book is the animal element there? Because this film, a lot of what Elphaba is fighting for is the animals and they are sidelined to a huge degree in this. Are they more present in the book? Well, I mean, you have, you know, the professor and everybody in the book as well. That was not something that I was really expecting when I picked up the book initially, because I'd forgotten, I knew the Cardly Lions in the original film, but like I haven't read all the Oz books or anything. So I kind of thought, I forgot that that was a big part of Oz.

1:00:13And so this whole fight for animal civil rights, I was a bit like, oh, okay, I didn't see that coming. All right. The answer is they're not, no, they're not in the book much more. And the thing is, that's a feature, not a bug. So the idea is that the animals have all of them begun to lose their voice by being silenced. And that all of them are reverting to something closer to a sort of normal, non-talking state of nature. And even the ones that she, like she speaks to them quite early in the film and they're having to flee Oz and they turn from her. So she is rejected by them as well, even as she tries to fight for them.

1:00:53So actually, I didn't trip over that. I think that was very much meant to be that way in the story. She literally is stripped of all support, except for maybe the flying monkeys laid on. She has no one to turn to. That is very much a feature that was built into this. And I think, if anything, emphasized by the movie.

1:01:15Chris Hewitt:Let's talk a bit more about the wizard. It's interesting you brought them up there, Hell's Bells. Jimbo, he's, of course, played by Jeff Goldblum. And there's a couple of points in the movie, the song Wonderful in particular, where we sense that he actually, there might be a shot of redemption for him. And then, of course, that pans out in a very, very different way. What did you make of the Wizard's arc? And Goldblum's performance as well. It's the fact that he's played by someone so lovable as Jeff Goldblum. Does that sand off the rough edges? Well, he's lovable, but also, you know, He was channeling, I think, his Ragnarok character a little bit.

1:01:48He's lovable and nefarious, and then lovably nefarious. And I think all of that works quite well. Because he's charming while also being a despotic authoritarian. I can't even say it. It's so despicable, I can't even say the word despot. He's a tyrant. He's a tyrant. And other words I can pronounce. He's a villain. Yes, he is. I talked to Jeff Goldwyn about him and he had a really interesting take again not all of which I got into the feature so his idea was I'm glad I didn't read this now

1:02:22Chris Hewitt:sounds half-assed at best you try working with the word count I do all the time I know and your first drafts are usually 10 ,000 words long she's not wrong anyway he talked about the fact that he sees the wizard's big sin as letting the audience believe that he's a true magician rather than, or sorcerer, rather than revealing, you know, or just acknowledging that these are tricks. That is his original sin. And everything kind of follows from that. Having gone along with this, he just finds himself on this road and he's kind of a yes man. And he just goes along. And he has literally, in Goldblum's view at least, wandered into despotism.

1:03:04He's not a true believer in anything. He's a true believer in what the crowd will listen to. And I think that is the kind of character that Goldblum was going for with The Wicked whereas I think Madame Morrible has a genuinely maligned agenda she has an agenda yeah without a doubt you get the impression she's very focused in her malignancy and he's a little bit all over the show I did enjoy Wonderful Girl it feels like Goldblum's really having a blast with that number in particular

1:03:31Chris Hewitt:yeah I thought that was one of the standout numbers of the film actually we'll get to the rest of the songs in a second yeah there's that moment where he you feel like he actually might be about to fess up. He might be about to actually big up Elphaba. And I wondered if you guys thought that he actually meant that. I think he was tempted. I think she does bring out a desire to do good in him. Yeah. But I think he also likes power. Do you think enough was made of the fact that he's her dad? I think he got as much as he deserved of that. I think he got that moment of, oh shit, this is actually personal to me.

1:04:10Oh shit, she's mine. Oh shit, maybe I shouldn't have been such a bellend.

1:04:14Chris Hewitt:Oh shit, I've lost it all. Oh shit, I've lost it all. I think that's about as much as you want to give him because fuck that guy. But from her point of view, does she get enough interaction with him? If I'm reading this right, which I'm probably not because I'm an idiot, she doesn't know he's her dad until near the end as well, right? I believe not. Yeah. So should that have been something that was made more of? I mean, from her point of view, he's like the archetypal deadbeat dad, isn't he? And she's not had great parental figures all the way through. So I certainly get the impression that, I don't think she has unresolved daddy issues that she needs to address.

1:04:53I think she has asserted her own independence. I don't think she's looking for a father figure. And I think he's just underscored her already existing belief that father figures are bellends. Yeah, I don't think. yeah he's already let her down he's already broken her heart he was her father figure when she sang The Wizard and I in part 1 he's already destroyed that so what is there left to destroy really

1:05:17Chris Hewitt:fair point I would agree alright so let's talk about some of the other characters in this and let's talk about the Wizard of Oz we've talked a little bit about the Scarecrow and we've talked a little bit about the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion what about the Dorothy of it all this little psychopathic kid who comes in on a flying house from Kansas and then without so much as a pile of leave just buys whatever people are selling her and immediately goes oh you want me to kill that witch oh yeah of course absolutely I'll kill that witch I stole her sister's shoes so fuck it steals a dead woman's shoes she's given the shoes by Glinda steals a dead woman's shoes took them off a corpse they're still warm yeah well she puts them on And they're still toasty warm from Nessa Rose's feet.

1:06:07So you say. Okay. Look, she's a kid. She's in a land where there are suddenly talking lions. She's landed in her house, which flew through the air with her little dog, too. I mean, she's allowed to be a little... She's probably concussed, if we're honest. She's allowed to be, you know, not at full strength. Okay, Helen, I'm sorry. This is some solid PR for Dorothy.

1:06:38Chris Hewitt:This is fucking lawyer bullshit right here. Your Honor was clearly concussed. When she murdered this poor innocent woman and stole her footwear. Also, if you remember the Wizard of Oz, she does not murder the witch. She doesn't know what she's going to do when she gets there. She goes there because she's told to go. she throws the bucket of water over her out of desperation. She doesn't know that water is supposed to kill the witch. I had no idea what would happen when I pulled the trigger on this assault rifle. I object. Your Honor. How many people in Dorothy's experience have been killed by having water thrown over them?

1:07:16Your Honor, I would submit to you that that number is zero. She has no reason to suspect that water kills anybody when applied by a bucket over the head. And second of all, she in fact did not kill anyone. A fact that she may be unaware of, but we, the court, are aware of. How are you the court aware of this? The court is not aware. The court, I'm sorry, yeah. This is a double jeopardy situation. It may well be a lie, but nobody knows. That's not a double jeopardy. The film held in the film. Can I cross-examine this take? At one point in the film, the citizens are singing about how to kill Alphabet.

1:07:56Yeah, but Dorothy isn't there at that point. That's in the Emerald City at the very beginning of the film. Dorothy hasn't landed. How would she know to even bring the bucket of water She doesn't bring a bucket of water. She's been... If you watch The Wizard of Oz, she's been sent...

1:08:10Chris Hewitt:Give me a gavel. Sent by Alphabet to get the bucket of water. I've got a bottle of water here. It's the best I can do. Okay, I'm bringing this to order. Order, order, order. We are not litigating The Wizard of Oz, brackets, 1939. The people versus Dorothy. Yes, the people versus Dorothy Gale. I'm sorry. We are litigating what happens in Wicked for Good. And this psychotic little shit picks up a bucket and without so much as a buyer leave flings it over Elphaba, reducing her to smoke and ash. What say you to that? I literally have just explained. She doesn't... But you've seen evidence from another film that is inadmissible.

1:08:51Chris Hewitt:It's inadmissible in court. Look, she did what she was told to do in this film. Following orders. The classic defense. Helen, I put... She also did what Elphaba told her to do in this film, which is literally Elphaba is the one who tells her to get the order. Come on, I'm here. Kill me. Do it now. That's what she said. Helen, is this mens rea? I genuinely don't understand it. She actually doesn't have mens rea. That is part of my argument, yes. Okay. But she... Listen, she should go to... jail for a long time. Dorothy jail. Jail for Dorothy for a thousand years. Yeah. Gail jail. That's what I think.

1:09:31Chris Hewitt:Okay. Well, good luck with that. Good luck with that indeed. Okay. For the rest of you who aren't on Dorothy's side, she should do time for this. Yeah. How? For what? What harm? Murder, murder, murder. Your Honor, I put to the long trail, long trail of footprints leading out of the castle and across the desert as proof positive that Glinda's the fucking, sorry, not Glinda, the alphabet is a lie. Bang, bang, bang, order, order, order. Everybody in Oz, everybody in Oz, with the possible exception of Glinda at the end, who uses a force to discern that her friend has gone to the magical land of desert with her straw man boyfriend.

1:10:17Chris Hewitt:Good luck. I mean, what's life like in the sack when your boyfriend is the sack? I don't know how that's going to work. But anyway... You've just got to look at things in a different way, Chris. Yeah. To be fair, Dorothy was questioned under caution, was told not to leave town. Where is she? She wasn't told not to leave town. She was specifically told by the de facto ruler, Glinda, to leave town. Well, Glinda is now... Complicit. Yes. An accomplice. She's a despot. She's allowed to do whatever the fuck she wants. and she has very pretty dresses. She's Glinda the Good! Upon interview, the young lady, Dorothy Gale, said this, and I quote, there's no place like home, there's no place like home, there's no place like home.

1:11:01Chris Hewitt:I don't know what to make of it. So, anyway, no one in Oz, apart from Glinda, knows that Elphaba is alive. I'm not even sure if that's meant to be Glinda seeing that at the end of the film or if that's just for us, the audience. I think she suspects. She feels it, right? She feels it, you know, because they have such a bond. it's like at the end of Shawshank when when Andy feels magically that no when Red feels magically that Andy is alive he goes he feels the force there's a tremor in the force a dyad in the force oh boy a million oysters cried out of terror all of a sudden silence despite not having vocal cords I think Linda knows I think she suspects she feels it right come on you're with me in this surely I can see Amon I will pay you five pounds to be with me on this you're going to need to up my fee before I agree on that one I am more inclined to agree with Helen on this and that was just more for the audience than anything Glinda I mean you're in contempt of court Amon the film does end with Glinda being able to access magic now so that's it precisely she has yeah but it doesn't mean she's immediately good at it Well, she will become good, and in time she will know that.

1:12:20Chris Hewitt:Okay, so what's your argument then? Now nobody knows that Elf is alive. Therefore, Dorothy is absolutely guilty of her murder in the eyes of people in Oz, so she should hang. In the eyes of people in Oz, this was a justified execution. Wow, street justice. This is extraordinary. It's taken such a dark time. So, Wicked for Bad, which will obviously be the next film. No, okay, you can have it both ways, right? Either the Wizard of Oz is canon, and therefore it was an accident. Right. Right? Or Wicked for Good is canon, and therefore the whole of Oz wanted Elphaba dead. She is now dead, as far as they know.

1:13:01And therefore, Dorothy has enacted their will with their express authority. The extrajudicial killings. The ruler at the time deputized Dorothy to go off and kill Glinda. Sorry, not Glinda. Wow! To go and kill Elphaba. Your Honor! That's what she did. She's eight years old. She's in the clear either way. She's not in the clear, Helen. Also, Elphaba isn't fucking dead. I see. She doesn't know that. The third film has to be a courtroom drama. 12 Angry Munchkins. I want to see this happen. Yeah.

1:13:39Chris Hewitt:Dorothy. How old is Dorothy? Like 12 or 13. She's under the legal age of responsibility. Oh my God, yes. She's a juvenile. Yeah. A juvenile killer. I mean, so... And a little dog too. Even... Yes. Who presumably ate Nessa Rose. Peeled her face off with his teeth. And then Dorothy took her shoes. No wonder Box Mad. I'm not that bent out of shape about Nessa Rose. She is... She has quite a hard villain turn. She's a full-blown fascist in this film. This is wild, this podcast. She dropped a fucking house on her. And you're not bent out of shape about that? She was bent out of shape by the house. She's been basically in prison box.

1:14:31She blames everything on her sister when all her sisters are just trying to help. Oh, no, I agree. She's a terrible human being. She's a terrible human being. Awful. It's a bad way to go.

1:14:42Chris Hewitt:It's not a great way to go, but at least it's quick. house piloted. I mean, yes, we can say that Madame Morrible did it. And, you know, she flew that house with some precision, it has to be said. You try landing a house on someone, it's fucking difficult. Storm would be impressed. She really would be. But what I'm saying is that Dorothy, Dorothy, you say that, you know, yes, she was deputized by the wizard and it's fine. And, you know, maybe in the world of Oz, that's all well and good from a legal standpoint. Maybe she's fine in Oz, but she's going to fucking pay, Helen. One day, she's going to wake up three in the morning screaming, screaming.

1:15:20Chris Hewitt:Oh my God, I threw a bucket of water over someone and she fucking melted. She will never, ever get over that. Yes. But that's not her fault. It is her fault. It's not her fault. She's a psychopath. She was, as far as she knew, kidnapped. Her friends were being, as far as she knew, tortured. She threw a bucket of water at somebody. She threw a bucket of water. Oh, in extremis. and that person to her eyes melted that is obviously going to traumatize her as were the previous circumstances she's going to have so many issues with water going forward oh my god well I didn't expect that to detour but it did alright we've got to wrap this up very very soon anything you want to talk about any characters you want to talk about any songs in particular you want to talk about there are two new songs in this film what did you make of the songs where they were deployed and what they brought to the story and to their characters.

1:16:16I think they were well deployed because I think you get both characters at their lowest point. So you get Elphaba having tried her best to save the animals of Oz and them going, oh, it's not really worth it. It's not going to happen. We're just going to fuck off. And she's just like, what the fuck here, guys? These are direct quotes. And then you have Glinda having been literally left at the altar and really kind of re-examining her own life choices as well. And I think, so I think they were really, really well, well deployed, obviously really, really well sung, beautifully done by both of them.

1:16:52I don't, you know, I don't think they're the best songs in any Wicked, obviously, but they, but I did like, There's No Place Like Home. I think the little trill that Cynthia does, no, oh, please, like that was beautiful to me. That really, really worked. And I also, I don't know if we've talked enough about Ariana Grande, because I think she is just off the charts. I think she's actually maybe the MVP in this movie because I don't think we have enough Elphaba. So I think she gets more of a chance to shine. She's right there in the thick of Emerald City trying to negotiate these two, you know, powerful figures.

1:17:25Chris Hewitt:And it's a very different character this time around. She's much more mature. She's less... Yeah, and I think you can see the effect that Elphaba's had on her. You can see her reconsidering things that I don't think she would have had they happened straight after Shiv with Elphaba... without Elphaba being involved, you know, had someone said to her on her first day at Shiz before meeting Elphaba, hey, you're going to wear pretty dresses and work with the wizard and Madame Morrible in Emerald City and everyone's going to love you and call you Glinda the Good, she would have been, where do I fucking sign?

1:17:55This is great. But actually, what happened, even though on the surface that's everything that's going on, there's that little voice, the Elphaba's voice inside her going, something's fucked up here. Again, direct quote. And you can see, you can feel that in her performance. And I think she does a beautiful job of walking that line of being the Barbie doll that everybody wants her to be, but also hinting at the sort of turmoil underneath. Yeah, I would agree with you on Ariana Grande. I think this is her film in the way that the first film was more Alphabet's film. And part of what you're saying is why I prefer The Girl in the Bubble to No Place Like Home because The Girl in the Bubble, that feels like it has more narrative momentum for Glinda in that moment in terms of considering where she is, how she's got to the stage, what she can maybe do to look at things differently and act better towards Elphaba and the people of Oz.

1:18:52Feels like the garden of the bubble gives her the... We can feel that narrative character shift through that song. And it just... I felt that in a more impactful way compared to No Place at Home, which is still, you know, I'm not going to, there's a new song, a new song by Cynthia, a new song by Ariana. I'm not going to say no to that. I have ears. They like good songs. They like good singers. And Cynthia and Ariana are two of the best. But yeah, again, what you're saying reminds me of For Good and just the power and the emotion that that song gives us. You feel that these two characters have been changed for the better because of their relationship and the performances Well who can say if they've been changed for the better?

1:19:42Changed for good somewhat but yeah it's the it's the highlight of the film for me I just wish we didn't have to wade through so much stuff that wasn't quite hitting for me before we get to that moment

1:19:56Chris Hewitt:My favourite is No Place Like Home of the new songs I think Cynthia Erivo fucking belts it out and as I said vocal chords at all costs. My goodness. As I said with Chun-Hen Chu, I really admired that it didn't end on the big power note that it could have done. It's interrupted by a moment of jeopardy, I think, with the animals, if I remember rightly. And I like that. I like sometimes that this film doesn't do what you expect it to do in terms of grandstanding, in terms of audience pleasing. It takes sometimes a knotier, more complicated road. Yellow Brick or otherwise and I admired that but yeah I don't think either of the songs are at least one of them will be nominated I'm sure for an Oscar whether or not they'll win I don't know but I enjoyed them but Jimbo what did you make of the songs overall?

1:20:51I genuinely in my head can't separate out too many of them I liked For Good I like as Helen said the witchy one the name of which we cannot remember but it is quite catchy that's the one and I was humming that afterwards as well. I think they're not as strong as the first half, and many of them, I mean, I was a bit glib about it when we reviewed it, but I do find a lot of them blend together in this, and they're a little bit more generic, a little bit more bland. I think the first half has a number of sort of bangers that really stand out. Divine Gravity obviously being the showstopper, but you know, Loathing, is that the name of it?

1:21:23Is that the name of the song? No, that's the one. Do you know what I mean? They have very distinctive feels to them, and I could not pick one of these songs out of a hat. a pointy hand a pointy hand not even for good for good is I mean honestly if you pinned me down and asked me to sing it I'd be like for good I heard it said come on

1:21:43Chris Hewitt:for good is interesting to me because you I know you were saying before this film came out that for good makes you cry almost every single time you hear it in Hell's Bells but perhaps not the way it's sung by James I don't know I think it made her cry yeah different way but it still works did this version tug at the old tear ducts? Oh, yeah. I think it's, I mean, there's no arguing with the singing here. And I think they did the right thing. You know, I get why in Defying Gravity they padded it out for like 25 minutes. I do understand that. Like, I understand some of the stuff that he was going for visually there and I thought it was really impressive.

1:22:2110 minute action sequence. Yeah, for those of us who know the song, it was like, sing the next note.

1:22:27Chris Hewitt:Jeez. I mean, and when she sings the next note. I mean, it was incredible. It stayed. sung. Yeah, you're damn right it did. Wowzers! But I was, you know, if you know the song and you're just like, oh Jesus, just finish the note. Finish it! Finish the note! Finish him! Finish the note! Whereas here, I think, for good, they did the, you know, they did keep it pretty simple, and I think that was the right choice. Can I ask a question? No. That's the end of our show, folks. Yes, of course you can. What did you make of the Dark Knight-esque ending? I guess you know, this film as a stage show predates The Dark Knight but what did you make of it?

1:23:04It does predate it's not a guess it definitely does five years or so but that's that's the ending and I think the the books there are books that continue on there have been rumors slash threats of spinoffs and sequels and all sorts to this I don't think Cynthia and Ariana would be involved but they could one of the sequel books for example is Son of a Witch

1:23:31Chris Hewitt:what so there are ways that I'm sure you could go there are of course an entire series of L. Frank Baum Wicked Oz books that you could go to so hang on Elphaba's son Elphaba's son there you go so Fierro's fully functional as soon as you said Son of a Witch I knew this was going to go Chris is just thinking Scarecrow Fox I mean I I need to see this how does that how does it work how does well I mean I feel like you should have learned really in school when a witch and a scarecrow love each other very much have a special couple but the birds and the bees don't tend to land on the person who's doing the the lovemaking see I think I think I think Vieira was a lovemaker I don't think he's a I don't think it's a a fighter that's okay it begins with that okay I'm just intrigued by that yeah Son of a Witch by Gregory Maguire yeah okay alright that's exciting isn't it isn't it I think it's exciting I don't know if I'm excited for spinoffs and sequels I think that is taking the wrong lesson from the success of Wicked the success of Wicked is generations of people love this stage show if you can do it well on screen you will make lots of money that's that's the actual takeaway so what you do is you look for other stage shows that people have loved for generations and you try to adapt those and you try to make lots of money i don't think it means we have an an endless hunger for stories from the wicked universe personally sounds like they're putting money first and stories second i mean i know they always do but equally sometimes that's not the lesson the lesson is genuinely like good musicals it's not specifically Wicked to me alternatively people like them let's make more of them but we shall see what happens we shall see what happens perhaps this is the end of Wicked for good and it's certainly the end of this spoiler special podcast thank you for listening and subscribing and supporting as ever our next spoiler special podcast will be Wake Up Dead Man I believe with the director Ryan Johnson and that is a ton of fun that one film and spoiler special hope you guys enjoyed this one all that remains now is to say goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning goodbye Amon Warman peace goodbye James Dyer there's no place like home there's no place like home goodbye Helen O 'Hara who's not just a friend of Dorothy but is a defender of Dorothy, the indefensible.

1:26:26Chris Hewitt:I mean, I know that you can't really betray your lawyer, client confidentiality, but fair play to you for giving it a good go. But she's awful and evil and deserves to go to prison for a very long time. You're a monster. Wow. Somewhere over the rainbow for you. That's what I'm saying. Ellen, put that bucket of water down. Goodbye, Ellen. Toodle-oo. Splash. Splash. And it's goodbye from me. Ah, this has been a long one. I'm off to feel the length. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.