Data, power and dollars: financing the AI energy boom | live from the ACORE finance forum in New York

29:33And the market will adjust and evolve and find new solutions to finance those projects cost effectively. And I think for what it's worth, McKenzie are still pretty bullish actually about that power demand growth, certainly on a five-year view, a 10-year view. So as you say, if we're right about that, that will definitely continue to support that demand for solar investment. Absolutely. Yeah. I next spoke to Mona Dajani, who is the co-chair of energy infrastructure and real estate at the law firm Cooley. She's taken on that role very recently. And I asked her to explain what her appointment meant in terms of the changing nature of the industry.

30:10So Cooley is a world-class law firm known for their representing early stage and late stage and IPOs of technology companies. Also in life sciences too. All the really cool, sexy stuff. You know, the new technologies. And now we're combining that with energy because you need the energy to get all those technologies to work. So it's an interesting combination. It's not a traditional like oil and gas, as some other firms are. It's definitely at the forefront of all types of technology. Something that James Wright from CIBC was saying, we were just talking to him earlier. he was quoting Jensen Wang from NVIDIA, the NVIDIA CEO, and he was talking about AI as being like a layer cake with different layers.

31:09And he said, the bottom layer of that cake is power. That is the essential thing without which none of the rest of it works. But also clearly having that sense that it's kind of completely integrated together, that it's one cake and that energy, as you say, is the total part of it. Absolutely, yes. So that's really interesting. Yeah, that's a very good analogy, a cake. Like they're all the different layers, but they're all one unit. Yeah, exactly. And then sort of as the energy industry moves that way, the tech industry moves that way. So the legal industry, which is providing services to those industries, moves in that same direction too.

31:47Yes. Yeah, that's interesting. Some of the firms, the ones that are really advanced. Right, right, right. Of course, of course. Absolutely. So the backdrop to everything that everyone has been talking about here at the ACOR Finance Forum is data centers, electricity demand growth. How is that changing what you do in terms of transactions, deal making? What are you seeing in terms of the way the industry is evolving in response to that? It almost is turning on its head. Everything is different. What I'm seeing now is hyperscalers that are behaving like utilities. In what sense? What does that mean?

32:33They are saying that they need to have power, speed to power as much as possible. and they are scouting locations on where they can get the best power and for how long and how reliable that power is going to be, that's unusual. Whoever thought that the hyperscalers, technology companies, would behave like utilities and are scouting data centers strictly on their ability to access power? So I'm seeing that. That's a really big change. I'm seeing utilities that are behaving more like infrastructure platforms. And what they're doing is some of them are creating unregulated arms. we have some really big name utilities some of the largest here in the United States that are almost doing venture venture transactions where they're investing in new technologies they're doing joint ventures with technology companies with other utilities too as well just to service the hyperscalers.

33:52So that's really fascinating. I'm also seeing private equity. So I represent a lot of private equity and they are repricing energy security. Yes. Meaning what? In what sense? Meaning that there's an asset class now that's for how bankable is the power, the access to power for the project or for the data center for the manufacturing facility. And that security, and that also touches on cybersecurity too, will add value to the whole transaction. It's really fascinating. It really is. I mean, so they're not just the private equity. They're not just going in and buying a piece of a project or buying a piece of a data center or buying a lot of them will buy developers, data center developers or AI developers in hopes of they will expand and get bigger and then they can sell them and make money.

34:53So that energy security is something that they definitely are pricing now that they never looked at. Just, you know, five years ago, they never did. So I think that's very interesting. And then I think that, and this is very important, transmission and distribution assets now are extremely important. And my money is on those assets as the backbone, the transmission and distribution, because that's the backbone for energy, you know, and power to all these different facilities. so that's it was and this was uh because all of this was accelerated by the uh growth of ai which created this huge demand for electricity that has been pretty much flat until recently yeah that is really interesting and to your point then about um that sort of the convergence of the different sectors that is absolutely fascinating as you say sort of um you know in a sense tech companies becoming more like utilities utilities becoming more like tech companies certainly i can remember i'm sure you will as well um let's say three years ago when people in both industries started kind of waking up to the need to cooperate and uh the vital importance of energy to the tech sector yes they seem absolutely miles apart you know the cultures were so different and there was a real lack of mutual understanding I think I think there was often a lot of um I'm trying to avoid using the word arrogance but let's say there was a lot of self-confidence on the part of the people in the tech industry yes sort of looked down on the people in the utility industry and thought you know we know how to do this we know better we understand this you know we understand your own business better than you do yes and um you know we'll be able to sort this out and fix all your problems and then there was a kind of a learning period where they realized actually it wasn't quite that simple yes and so now as you see we're kind of into a phase of much more constructive collaboration companies working together yes finding solutions together much more kind of mutual understanding tech companies understanding what utilities need and how to get the best out of them utilities understanding what tech companies are asking for.

37:19And so it does feel like that's a much more positive spirit for everybody. That's the way you're going to get actually real progress is going to be made. And so we are seeing ideas and projects and very constructive steps forward actually happening. Yeah, and they're all converging together now. And to have a really successful deal that I can structure and put together, they all have to get along. And they, you know, they can't, the utility is just as important as the technology and the tech companies and the hyperscalers and the developers and the sponsors. They're all very important. And so my job is to put deals together that make sense for all the parties together.

38:03And then we rinse and repeat and do the same deal at another location. And what I see happen is, which is interesting, the hyperscalers and the technology companies are much more agile and they're adept to pivoting pretty quickly, whereas the utilities tend to be historically much more conservative. and they feel more confident if another utility accepted that particular structure before and they said like there's precedent so to speak then they know that okay this is doable because we had this utility nearby that just accepted this so uh that should be okay here and we shouldn't run into problems yeah yeah i mean i know i think that that's really interesting and i think that's absolutely right that is definitely what's happening and the way the industry is changing yes um i always get a bit defensive of the utility industry when this subject comes up because i feel like if the utility is conservative which it is it is conservative for a very good reason which is if you try uh risky ideas and they don't come off the lights go out and people die and so it's entirely justifiable to err on the side of course Yes, yes.

39:25And, you know, what was that, the Facebook slogan about move fast and break things. That's really not what you want to do in utility. Go slowly and don't break anything. Right, right. Exactly. That's so spot on. And I would just say that the utility is a regulated industry. And that too. And they have, some of the utilities have an unregulated arm, like I was talking about, that does some investments. But it's a regulated industry. So it's highly regulated. versus the tech industry, which really isn't as not not even close to where we are with with utilities. And they have FERC and they have state regulators, too, as well.

40:04And also the other thing that that the utilities are used to and concerned about is they can't just raise their rates or price something based on a design. You know, like the tech companies do that. They say this is really cool. Cost us access is how much we think doing these focus groups. we should sell this widget for. Utilities work totally different. They have to get approval both from federal and state. And the rate payers truly have a voice. And so they're reluctant to make big moves unless it's going to benefit their rate payers too. So it's been very interesting for me and I've it's fascinating and I love it to be able to structure these deals where everyone makes money at the end of the day and that's how you have to look at it which is which is the point of the exercise right which is the point yeah to make money and to provide the power uh and it's a circle yeah and the opportunities are there to do that oh yeah and to reach agreements that's kind of that are in everybody's interests.

41:14Correct. Partly because, or maybe principally because, the market is growing then. And so all these new opportunities have been created. And the demand, yeah. Is that right? The demand. Yeah, the market is growing. The demand is pushing it. And there's a real opportunity. So everyone's working together. So what are you seeing in terms of solutions for meeting that growing demand then? I mean, are there particular technologies or particular kinds of corporate structure that people are favoring? I mean, what are the key trends at the moment? So some of the key trends at the moment right now, I'll just tell you, which is super important, is that you have to think outside the box and be very creative.

41:59You can't think of using a same corporate structure that we used even three years ago. It's totally different now. It's out the door. So there's different demands. There's different political... And why is that? Why have things changed in just three years? Because the big thing is the speed, the speed to power that has changed everything. The speed to power. And also as a result, you're seeing a lot of proliferation of data centers and manufacturing plants and such. And there's been some pushback. You know, we were talking about earlier the rate payers and the utilities being very careful that they didn't raise the rates too high.

42:44So there's some pushback. There's some legislation in certain states to limit the amount of data centers that are in their cities or they're in, you know, where in their state. So there's that. and as one of the solutions is you're seeing a lot of the data center operators or the data center developers saying okay we're going to do a temporary fix this behind the meter right which what do you mean by behind the meter because it seems to me i'm always very interested in this because sort of having some kind of co-located generation near where the load is yes um is very much discussed very popular a lot of buzz about it being behind the meter can cover a variety of different structures in the terms of the way you relate to the grid or indeed presumably it includes being off the grid completely being actually islanded right right um and it also seems to be an area where there's a lot more kind of talk and discussion and kind of general sort of froth than there is perhaps actual activity going on.

43:54I mean, there is some. I don't want to suggest there's nothing happening, but... Yes. Anyway, what do you think? How do you see it? Well, I think, you know, most of the data center developers, sponsors, operators want to come in and build and go fast, as fast as possible. And they don't want any pushback. So some, yes. But they do also want to be on the grid generally, don't they? Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the number one. They definitely want to be on the grid. But the problem with that is that there is interconnection cues that could take years, depending on where you're at. There's regulatory approvals, too, that could take a long time, too, as well.

44:33That is very much dependent on the state and federal environment, the political environment. So some are saying we're going to bring our own. We're going to bring our own power for now. Some do it just temporarily just to get things up and running. And that could be in the form of solar and battery and gas. I'm doing a lot of those kinds of deals. Sometimes I'm doing just solar and batteries. You know, the hyperscalers, and I will just say this, the majority of them have made pledges on clean energy. so they definitely want clean energy to be powering the data centers which is interesting because you also hear a lot of kind of rumblings that well they're actually going to have to put those commitments to one side at least for the time being because as you say speed to power is the absolute priority right and so you have to do whatever you can to get that and if at the same time right you can cut emissions then great yes you can't then okay that's just something you're to accept.

45:34Right, exactly. Well, look, it's very quick. You can build solar and batteries very quickly, very, very quickly. And if you have access to the grid, amazing. But let's assume you don't for now, only because it takes so long and there's a queue. But if you have solar and batteries that can be built relatively quickly, and let's say you have also access to a gas line, that's that's ideal and you see a lot of developers and you know when i'm talking about developers independent power producers that have now that used to be solar and wind focused now are still doing that and batteries but they're really focused on the data centers because of the huge demand that there is and that might mean that they are solar and wind and batteries and And gas as well.

46:25Everything. Right. Everything. We're even doing some pilots. I'm representing some utilities that are doing some pilots on SMRs, you know, small nuclear reactors too. That's still a ways. But, you know, it is. It's like we have to use everything. We have to use all different types of energy sources to get where we need to be. I next spoke to an executive from one of the companies that is building and operating a lot of these new data centers. John Edwards is executive vice president and head of capital markets at Switch. And I asked him first how he approached the task of securing power supplies for his data centers.

47:06So power consumption needs to be done responsibly, right? We talk about many things internally, and one of it is not impacting the consumer. And it's also about being green. So Switch today is 100 % green power. That doesn't mean we only purchase green power, but we use REX to substitute our consumption of non-green power. But it's about buying power in a responsible way, and that usually comes down to generation and how do you consume generation in a way that doesn't impact consumers. I think an interesting stat that kind of gets at this point in how we do it is in Nevada, Switch consumes roughly one-third of the power generation in Nevada.

47:47In the whole of the state of Nevada. In the whole state of Nevada, right? Right. And that provides a few benefits to the grid. One, and this doesn't get talked about a lot in the press, but data centers provide a very good baseload of demand. Right. We're consuming power 24-7, 365 days a year. So even when consumers, businesses are not consuming power, we still are. So we provide the grid a lot of stability and moving electrons around the grid. And then second is we decoupled from the grid, I think it was 2015. And what that means is we buy our generation outside of the utility, but we use the utility for transmission and distribution.

48:30So when we're buying generation, we're not impacting the consumer, but at the same time, we're using the grid to move our electrons around to our various data centers. and in 2025, consumer prices went down double digits in Nevada. And a lot of that was in part to how we responsibly procure power and we try to use that same method everywhere else we go. Right, so that's really interesting because this is something that's obviously talked about a lot, right? Anytime you speak to someone both in the power industry and in the tech and data center industry, they always sort of say we accept the principle that when we add capacity, when we add new large loads to the grid and the capacity to serve those loads, it can't have an effect on the bills of ordinary household ratepayers.

49:24That's something which is very well agreed. That's something which is an imperative as well coming down from the White House, the highest level of government. but very often it seems to be the case that it's easy to sort of say that it's easy to kind of say we're committed to this and not having an impact on ratepayers then when you actually look at the details of implementation there is some impact on ratepayers really the potential for an impact so but you're saying that you can in terms of what you've done in nevada you've actually managed to achieve reductions in bills. How do you do that?

50:06And do you think this is a sort of a generalizable model? Has it been something particular to the condition in that state that's made it possible to do it there? Or is there something that could be done across the rest of the country? It's certainly something that is unique to Nevada, but it's also something that can be replicated in other jurisdictions. It can't be done in every jurisdiction. I think what's important is the way that you purchase a generation, that generation consumption is not impacting the rate base. Atlanta is a location that is out there in the public. We bought a lot of land in Atlanta.

50:42We specifically went outside of the utility where we purchased that land. So we can purchase our generation from a co-op of, I believe it's 12 co-op members. And that enables us to be more selective in how we purchase that generation, which enables us to limit our impact on the ratepayers. Although then there's also a question, presumably because generation is one thing, but then transmission and distribution are another. And for the customer's bill, both are important. And so even if the generation is separate, is there not sometimes an issue then with new transmission and distribution capacity?

51:20because if there's more load on the grid, you sometimes need to build new wires to support that. And that will often have to be done by the utility, would have to come into the rate base, and therefore would affect bills generally. Or are there ways to, again, stop that investment cost being passed on to consumers? Many times you do need grid upgrades to support the generation coming to the data center. And I think there's ways that data center developers can support the utility in that construction and those costs so that it has limited impact or no impact on the consumers. And I think that's part of what we spend time and effort in working with utilities to ensure that the way it's being done is responsible and done in a way that doesn't impact the broader market.

52:10So the other thing you've mentioned is green power and having that as a priority. It feels like in general, certainly at a political level, but also across the power industry and in the tech industry, that pressure to have 100 % zero carbon energy has faded. Speed to power is the priority for a lot of data center users. The AI industry is moving very fast. No one wants to be left behind in that race. and so other objectives including emissions reduction are getting left behind. Do you think you're going to be able to maintain that commitment then to keeping 100 % green power? Is it a competitive advantage then when you're looking for customers, as you say, trying to get hyperscalers to use your services?

53:09Is it still something they look at, the question of the emissions profile and the source of the energy used to power those data centers? Yeah. So I think historically we have been 100 % green in the future. We're still trying to be as green as possible. It's hard to predict whether we'll not always be or always be 100 % green. I think when it comes down to the type of power that we're procuring, obviously customer discussions are critical to that decision-making. And many times we'll take their lead on, not their lead, but we'll work with them on finding the right mix of power and how to substitute REX to achieve those emission targets.

53:52But it is definitely a focus on our power procurement strategy. Something else that's talked about a lot in the industry at the moment is co-located generation behind the meter power however that might be structured having some kind of relationship with the grid that could even be detaching from it completely and having islanded power or having a connection but having local generation that's used to provide a lot of the supply for the facility is that something you do i mean how do you think about questions about having behind the meter power as opposed to being grid connected? So similar to the green power, we're today 100 % connected to the grid.

54:39Utility grid connected power is very important to the customers that we serve. It's the most reliable form of power, the most redundant. So historically, we have been 100 % grid connected, and that is part of our overall strategy for power procurement. Does that mean we won't in the future maybe look at behind the meter power as a bridge to utility power? yes, we will look at that. It's not something that we've executed on or plan to execute on, but it's something that it is a tool in the toolkit that we could use, but there would need to be a very clear line to great connected power for us to be comfortable with the behind-the-meter solution.

55:15Because what's your sense of how the industry is going then? And as I say, it feels to me as though a lot of talk about it, it being behind-the-meter power, perhaps rather less actual investment going in. There are a few high-profile cases that have been discussed, but in general, a lot of people seem to think that the grid connection is the right way to go. Do you think that's right? Is that still where the center of gravity in the industry is going to be? I think grid-connected power will always be the primary source. There's certainly the high-profile and the low-profile projects where you do see behind-the-meter being used to accelerate power availability at certain sites.

55:59It's not a great long-term solution. It's not the most reliable solution. And for those reasons, I think that's why when you're looking at building data centers around major metropolitan areas, which is what Switch does, you're really looking for that long-term, stable supply of power, which behind the meter power is not the great solution. And your role is head of capital markets then. So that's an important consideration in terms of getting power supply, right? Because you need financing, you need to make commitments typically. Can you explain a bit about how that works? Sure. So before we build a data center or finance a data center, we want the projects to be de-risked, right?

56:47That means we have power secured, we have long-lead supply chain secured, we have GMPs signed. and a customer contract signed, right? And to get the customer contract signed, in most cases, you need those other factors secured as well. And once you have that package of, that development package ready to go, you're ready to put shovels in the ground and start building. And that's when you're really raising capital to, from banks or from other sources of debt financing to build the data center. But it's all about having a de-risked project to ensure as much as possible. Obviously, there can always be issues down the road, but ensuring that you're going to have a data center operating, pulling power, providing your customers the capacity they need when you expect to.

57:40Right, because your power suppliers want to know that you've been de-risked. The power suppliers want to know. And they want some kind of financial guarantee there. Yeah. So I think a big trend that we're seeing with utilities is we hear about the queues. Where are you at in the queue? Are you in the queue for 28, 29, 30? The utilities have gotten smart and they're looking at this fact pattern. They're saying, well, I'm going to have to spend billions of dollars, tens of billions of dollars to upgrade transmission, to upgrade generation, to deliver power to the data centers. I want certainty. I want credit support from those developers to ensure that they're actually going to build the data center and deliver it.

58:20And this is, I think there's this came out a few weeks ago where we raised a$2.6 billion letter credit facility supported by a bunch of our relationship banks. And this credit facility is primarily intended to be used to post credit support to utilities to effectively give them a guarantee that we will build the data center and be pulling the power from it when we tell them that we're going to. Because we don't want, the utilities don't want to be left with unused infrastructure. They're putting that capital into the rate base in many instances, and they expect to return that capital. And this is, I think, where the industry is going.

59:00And I think you're going to see a lot of issues. A lot of issues in the sense of what? So I think providing credit support is not cheap, right? If the utility is requiring one to$3 million per megawatt, if you have a 500 megawatt project, that's$1.5 billion of credit support, right? On the high end. Even a 200 megawatt project, that's still a very large number. and that's where scale and a company like Switch, we can deliver that type of credit support. Because there is an enormous amount of speculative development out there, isn't there? So people will just kind of acquire some land. Everyone's a data center developer now, right?

59:39You go and you buy 100 acres, 200 acres of land, you go and you find power and you now have a data center site. I mean, that's what you see out there a lot, but not everyone can deliver. It's all about execution, right? execution at a high level is important. Right, because sometimes when you see these very, very large numbers, about hundreds and hundreds of gigawatts of new load being added to the grid, I presume a lot of those projects are never actually going to materialize, right? That is that kind of speculative development. Yeah. And so that's for a company like Switch then, if you want to show you're serious, you are actually going to build these projects, there is going to be real capacity there.

1:00:19That's right. You need to demonstrate that. We're putting our money where our mouth is, right? If we tell the utility we're going to be pulling power in 28, 29, where we're putting our financial backing behind that to give them certainty and support them in a smart financial way to give them confidence that we will be a good partner and we'll deliver a project on time. And how do you think about risk in the industry then? We've been saying the AI business is changing very fast. There's speculation. A lot of people say it's a bubble. You know, the revenues will never be there to justify the investment that's being made.

1:00:55Who knows what kind of breakthroughs are going to come that might render current technology obsolete. Maybe if quantum computing happens or something, you know, it's going to be a whole kind of new generation of hardware that's going to be needed. How do you navigate those risks? So I think first and foremost are the tenants that we contract with, right? were primarily building data centers for the top credit-worthy hyperscalers and signing 15, 20, 25-year leases. So a lot of our credit risk is the credit risk of AA or better counterparties. And I think that gives us comfort in spending the capital and building those long-term data centers with companies that have very high credit quality and have been around for a long time.

1:01:47For Switch and for data center developers, generally, we're not spending money on the chips and the servers, which need to be refreshed every few years. What's important for us is that we're building data centers that our customers are going to be able to use today. They're going to be able to use five years, 10 years from now when NVIDIA comes out with new servers or they need to upgrade. Is our data center still going to be able to deliver what they need without significant upgrades? And if you dig into the design of Rob's EVO data centers, which is his latest data center, it is very flexible, right?

1:02:20You can consume two megawatts per rack liquid cooled in one chamber, and right next door, you could consume 50 kW per rack air cooled, right? It's all about flexibility. And the way the technology is going to evolve over time is not every rack is going to consume the same amount of power, right? And that's where the design element of how are you building a data center, not for today, it's not about today. Everyone can build a data center for today for NVIDIA's latest chips, but how do you do it in a smart, cost-efficient way that's going to enable you to give the big tech guys what they need 15, 20 years from now without having to invest significant CapEx to upgrade it?

1:03:00And we have a great product that we're delivering. Yeah, that is really interesting. It certainly is a very exciting time, as well, yes. Tremendous amount of change going on. John Edwards, thank you very much indeed. Great talking to you. Thank you for having me. It's been great. Finally, we welcome back to the show Leslie Hunter. She is the Senior Vice President for Policy and Engagement at our host's ACOR. And I asked her how the renewable energy industry was coping with withdrawal of tax credits for wind and solar in the budget legislation of last year. We are in a unique situation right now where there's never been as much focus on the energy sector and bolstering domestic energy as there have been in recent history.

1:03:40So there's a clear market opportunity and capital clearly wants to invest across energy technologies, but in particular in clean energy. And we have numbers out for 2025 that show that there was an uptick last year. There is expected to be an uptick this year as well as as companies look to the cliff, the July cliff associated with the start construction deadline for wind and solar. But then also, you know, there are core tax credits that remain available around energy storage, around nuclear and for storage, also applicability to hybrid generation projects as well. So we are optimistic about the potential for continued investment in the sector.

1:04:31The challenge, though, is policy uncertainty and whether investors have the rules of the road that they need to innovate in the market as policy continues to evolve. Right. So let's think about that policy uncertainty then. in terms of the wind and solar tax credits there is this cliff coming for eligibility where you have to what if you have started construction by the 4th of July of this year then you can claim the tax credit for your project right so that seems to be kind of generating a burst of activity as developers rush to kind of try and get their projects in under the wire to be eligible for that tax credit, those tax credits.

1:05:17Is that then just going to be a very sort of short-lived boost? Are we going to see activity drop off very markedly after that? Yes. So the cliff in July allows projects to start construction and retains the safe harbour that is four years for them to enter into service afterward. After July, projects would need to be placed in service. If they start construction after July would need to be placed in service before the end of 2027 to obtain tax credits. And from what we've heard in the industry, that it's difficult to construct one of these projects in under two years. So we do see heightened market activity that is really driven by that change in credits.

1:06:07But then also, I think there's a continuation of the market preference for wind, solar, and storage that we've seen over the past decade now, right? These remain competitive technologies. They're, you know, while, you know, the fewer than a two-year deadline is tough, they can be deployed more rapidly than most other technologies that the administration and others are looking to as long-term solutions like nuclear and natural gas that has not yet begun construction. When you talk about policy uncertainty, do you mean other issues then beyond the tax credits? Are there other concerns you've got or is it the tax credit that's the big thing really that you're worried about?

1:06:55So the implementation of the new rules associated with the tax credit, so the foreign entity of concern requirements still are not fully clarified by Treasury. So we are awaiting the formal proposed rulemaking. What came out earlier this year was interim guidance. It addressed some of the component level and material assistance questions associated with those rules, but did not address the taxpayer level issues such as debt issuance, such as partnerships and other issues that affect clean energy investors, utilities in particular. So we are sending a message to the administration and working with the industry to help make sure that they have the resources that they need to make the changes required to allow investment to continue to flow.

1:07:49So tax is one area, also very focused on the impacts of permitting, uncertainty with the red tape associated around approvals for wind and solar projects through the Department of War, stalling the mitigation agreements for certain projects as well. And that's particularly an issue for wind, is that right? Mostly wind, yes. Right. And what's been happening there? So many of these projects are just being held up by this really critical stage of being able to obtain a mitigation agreement to show that they would not interfere with military operations. This is part of the site and clearinghouse of the Department of War that's existed for a long time to kind of evaluate the impacts of projects and how they play a role when they're sited next to military installations and has allowed many projects to get built after rigorous review.

1:08:54But now over the past year, we've seen the holdup of over 160 projects. That's the core ask of the industry right now is to ensure that players have the rules of the road, that those rules won't change midstream. And they're able to deploy capital and trust the federal government when making these long term investments in U.S. infrastructure. and there's the risk, even if actions are intended to be limited to one asset class, like offshore wind, for example, that sends a signal to investors that other areas may also be risky to invest, so could have an impact on investment across other U.S. infrastructure categories as well.

1:09:43Right. And the survey then that you're publishing this week, that has some interesting results, doesn't it, on investors' views of the U.S. in terms of its attractiveness as a location for low-carbon energy investment. And that's, I mean, the numbers there are not good, right? I can't remember the data, but what does it show? Yes. So we released a report today, which contains the results of surveys of capital providers and developers in our space. Most of them invest or participate in the market at a very high level, invest billions of dollars in the clean energy sector annually and asked a wide variety of questions about the state of the investment market and clean energy finance right now.

1:10:27One of the core findings is that this year, many of them do plan to increase their investments, but as underlying that, they are viewing the U.S. as less attractive for investment, as a venue for investment than other leading countries. And this is a significant change in our previous years of conducting these surveys. So 70 % of capital providers see a decrease in investment over the past year, and many of them expect that trend to continue over the next three. And that's a decrease in investment, what, in clean energy in the U.S.? To clarify, that's a decrease in their perceived attractiveness, the attractiveness of the U.S.

1:11:14market compared to other leading markets. And, you know, as we've seen with Iran, it heightens geopolitical tension and increase in oil prices, you know, bolstering of clean energy markets in Europe and elsewhere. So there's also the risk that capital that could be deployed in the U.S. goes to other jurisdictions. So, of course, I mean, as you'll be well aware, the administration has been very sceptical about renewable energy in general, and in particular about wind, but to an extent about solar as well, and is very much stressing the importance of baseload power. And actually, sometimes that could be renewable, geothermal, is definitely a technology that's very much supported by the administration, but they also support nuclear and fossil fuel power generation.

1:12:09If you're trying to convince them that renewable energy does deserve support, wind and solar and storage perhaps specifically do deserve support, what do you say? Yeah, so speed to deploy is core to our messaging in that regard and to the economic growth opportunity associated with these technologies We've seen, I mean, wind, solar and storage have represented over 90 percent of all capacity additions, hundreds of billions of dollars of investment over the past decade and real potential for continued growth here. So by cutting off the opportunity that the sector provides, there's also a risk of ceding this investment to other countries as well.

1:13:04And what about the prospects for permitting reform in Congress? That seems to be a perennial subject, which has been talked about a lot in recent years, has never actually made it to legislation getting passed. but we seem to be coming to another moment where there is bipartisan support for some kind of reform that would help give all industries including the energy industry and including renewable energy more certainty about what they need to do to get projects built and to expedite development is that something you're expecting do you think there will be progress there in Congress? And if it did happen, would it make a material difference to renewables?

1:13:49That is something that we're hopeful for. And as you mentioned, the industry has been championing permitting reform for the past decade or longer. We came very close with EPRA a couple years ago. But the key things that we like to see through permitting reform are transmission provisions, because one of the core constraints to the expansion of clean energy right now is how difficult it is to build new transmission in this country. So that is a key focus. And also the technology neutral provisions and seeing if legislation can meaningfully address some of the red tape and slow walking around specific energy technologies.

1:14:37So this remains in play. There has been progress. The White House is interested in seeing a deal move forward. And you've seen a wide variety of, we like to call them strange bedfellows of different groups working together, all aligned around the need for permitting reform on a technology neutral basis. Lizzie Hunter, thanks very much indeed. So that's all from us from the first day of the ACOR Finance Forum in New York. Thanks also to John Edwards, Mona Dijani, Adam Altenhofen, and James Wright. Many thanks to our producers, Dan Cottrell, Molly Mermin, Toby Bingins-Gilchrist, and above all, many thanks to all of you for listening and watching.

1:15:15We really value your feedback, so please do keep that coming, and we'll be back very soon with all the latest news and views on the future of energy. Until then, goodbye.

1:15:40Thank you.