Is fusion power here at last? The imagined energy of the future is becoming very real right now

29:20I mean, Bob at CFS already has a license for their Spark and is working on that in Virginia for ARC. Our multiple other companies, too, have licenses already to get going on this. So it's really an enabling thing that's going to be really important as we scale up. Okay. So I have to ask this because this is like a, I don't have enough science background and there are going to be a lot of listeners that are like me. So I'm using these either lasers to heat something or a magnetic chamber to hold the process in place in check. So what happens if a magnet fails or the chamber that holds the reaction fails?

30:04What does that look like in particle movement? Yeah, it's really hot. It's like a star. We talk about it like that way. And you think like lava in a chamber, it's going to get out. and like it's not really what it is it's it's more like a candle in the wind and in fact if you move off the operating point the fusion reaction stops everything cools down and within within a fraction of a second it goes from the super hot plasma with one gram of hot plasma to one gram of gas and we literally in today's fusion machines we blow it out with something that's less than a breath of air. So it's more like a candle and less like a ball of lava.

30:42And so that means if you're, which, you know, mentally is sort of weird, but... No, no, that's a great analogy. I mean, I have a huge visualization now in my mind. Yeah. That's not Doc Ock. Like Doc Ock, you know, East River, Spider-Man, it's not that. And actually, we submitted to the NRC in this, We did a study looking at what is the worst possible outcome here. And in that study, we did, you know, using models from Lawrence Livermore National Lab, we did a study to say if the worst possible thing happens, all of the source fuel within the machine gets out, which physically actually can't happen because it's in a vacuum.

31:25So that means the air rushes in if there's a breach of vacuum. But anyway, say the worst possible thing happens. All of the radiation goes up the stack and goes out into the general public. Well, actually, what happens is that there is no threat to the general public. Anybody outside of the power plant is going to get a radiation dose that is less than the emergency hazard evacuation zone. So basically, this has no impact on the general public. Now, you have to do work to protect the workers on the plant from anything like that. That's really important. And getting this right and protecting people who work there is really important.

32:13So regulation is effective, important in that respect. But you can cite one of these anywhere because even if the worst thing happens, it's not going to affect people who live outside of there. You don't have to evacuate. Every business has priorities to protect, goals to reach, and decisions that need to hold up. Energy should support all of that, not become one more thing to manage. That's why Engie takes the time to understand your business before building energy solutions around it. Your operations, your goals, your pressures, your plans for what's next. Because while Engie knows energy, no one knows your business like you.

32:52And when that expertise comes together, energy becomes more than something that powers your business. It becomes part of what helps move it forward. Engie helps turn energy plans into outcomes with solutions built around real business needs. Learn more at engieresources.com. That's E-N-G-I-E, engieresources.com. Right, so fusion power has all these advantages in theory on paper, if it can be made to work. But as we've been saying, what's really interesting, what's exciting about the industry now, the reason why we're talking to you on the show today is that it's going to be moving out of the realm of the theoretical and into the practical.

33:31And there are going to be real plants starting up very soon. Bob, perhaps, I mean, could you talk a bit about what you're doing then? Specifically, the names Spark and Arc got mentioned in passing earlier on. Perhaps you could explain a bit about what those are and what the significance of those two projects is. Add to that that you have commercial partners. You've got a utility. Yeah, exactly. The whole structure is very interesting as well. It'd be great if you'd go into that too, yeah. Sure, yeah. Infusionland, Spark, and Arc are well understood. Outside, black box. Yeah, so what we're doing is we have a plant here in Massachusetts.

34:05I'm at our headquarters here. We have about a part of an army base. And we have about a billion dollar prototype plant. So it's a pilot plant. It's the largest advanced energy project in the United States. It's about 80 % complete. It's called Spark. And it builds the science that we've already done in national labs, universities, tokamaks, about 150 of those that have been done. So we understand that. It adds a couple new technologies, very high field magnets, things we manufactured. It puts it into a commercial supply chain that were very vertically integrated. And we've gone and constructed it.

34:39And we're starting to turn it on. And it's predicted by the scientific community to be about 10 times power from the fusion reaction out and in. We won't actually boil steam and make electricity, but had we had a boiler, it would actually be able to sell electricity. That plant, that's about half scale of a power plant. And that gives us a snapshot of what a power plant looks like. And so your comment, Ed, of like on paper, it's no longer just on paper. Like it's in steel in the ground and concrete. It's in factories around the world. It's in experimental facilities that are been built and operated by labs universities.

35:13And now it's moving into this phase of like a near commercial. Yeah, and just to check on that, and you're planning to turn that on, what, next year in 2028? Next year. Next year, right. Yeah, next year. It's starting to turn on now, like plants are running, parts of it are running. It's almost all installed and we're just It's a big Lego set, putting a big Lego set together. So that's Spark. And then there's ARC, which is the next step. Yeah. And so that's designed to give us the last pieces of data that we need so that we can freeze the design of the first generation of power plant. And that's called ARC.

35:44And that's something that we've been working on at the company and our academic and university partners for about over 10 years of all the little details and building the supply chain toward it. And, you know, Spark gets us a lot of the way there and gets us the last data when it operates. That first, the first one of those plants, that will be built in Virginia and just south of Richmond. It's a power station there that we're, it's called Fall Line Fusion Power Station. In partnership with Dominion, large utility, Google will buy the power. ENI, a large European energy company, will buy the power.

36:20And so we're at the phase now where we're putting together the permits, the construction plans for that facility. And as soon as Spark is running, we'll take the supply chain, the manufacturing capabilities, the team, the data, and we'll move it and start building in Virginia. And that, we think, is the first fusion power plant on the grid. and that plant, it will be 400 megawatts and it will demonstrate many of these attributes that we're talking about here. Turn it on, turn it off, ramp it up, ramp it down. How do you regulate it? What's the public acceptance? How do you have a supply chain for it?

37:01How do you make this into a template for power plants? Right. I mean, for instance, one of the things I noticed with that was that you've filed an application to join the queue to get interconnection to the grid, to the pgm grid in virginia for a 400 megawatt bond that does really make it seem very real i think you know these are things which obviously this is a queue which is full of gas fire plants and solar and wind and what have you this i think you're just saying i think this is right it is the first fusion plant ever to join one of these queues in the united states or anywhere in the world that's correct yeah yeah again to that point about moving from the theoretical to the real that does make it seem very real.

37:45It also points out something that this energy gang has talked about a lot, which is in energy, the paperwork can be the leading long pole in the schedule. Yeah, absolutely. And so what is your timetable for that then? When do you hope to have ARK through that interconnection process and actually generating power, supplying it to the grid? You have to do the interconnection, you have to build it, you have to commission it, you have to operate it. But that looks like the early 2030s. And that's been a timeline to the long joke, but it's a long way away. That's been a timeline that's been very consistent with CFS.

38:20So, you know, we've said we're going to do big magnets. We're going to do Spark. We're going to do ARK. Watch it at this pace. And for the most part, we've done a pretty good job of meeting that pace. Okay. So the next step is to talk about the supply chain. You know, everything's about critical minerals, blah, blah, blah. and some things have a worse supply chain than others. So because you need to have some kind of breeding of lithium-6 to do the technology that I believe is embedded in your design, your product design, Y12 Oak Ridge facility, they're saying the construction will be finished in 31, but they won't have the first operational fuel till 2034.

39:05You've got Hexium, which is a startup in Austin. I'm going to say something. I'm going to read it from a piece of paper because, you know, physics is not my strong suit. So atomic vapor laser isotope separation, avlis process to make the lithium-6, which is sort of a US DOE original funded experimental technology. so how are you seeing this so-called lithium-6 part of the supply chain uh is that an issue uh are you worried about it yeah i'm sorry and i've been following this uh issue less than amy has i'm afraid so you might need to take a step back for my purposes and probably for quite a few people in the audience as well so what are we talking about here lithium-6 this is what the crucial fuel for the fusion reaction, is it?

39:58There's a lot of misinformation. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. So in fusion, use lithium to close part of the fuel cycle. It doesn't have to be lithium-6. You can make fusion power plants without any lithium-6. However, like lots of things in fusion, there are areas where if you put a small amount of effort in, you can make it better. So this isn't a question of can you make it work or can you scale it? It's where can you start to make it even better? And so it turns out if you like goose it a little bit with lithium six, which is part 7 % of all the lithium, you can go get it. You have to separate it, but it's not that hard to separate.

40:33Just no one ever needed to do it. You can make it better. Likewise, like with materials, like we have materials today that you can put in a future power plant that can withstand the conditions. They won't last that long. They'll last long enough for the first generation of plants. But if we made better materials, then they'll last longer. And this is what you see at the beginning of an industry. You see, like, just get something that works. And then all these things that no one had any reason to work on, people go work on. And they make it even better. So you're starting to see these startups and other places do work, anticipating not just that, like, fusion is going to happen, but it's going to be a big enough industry to build a follow-on business doing a piece to make those be better.

41:16And that's super exciting. Yeah, let me jump in on that. So just last month, for the first time, the FIA hosted a trade show. This was a supply chain trade show. We hosted it out in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And when we announced it, we kind of weren't sure if anybody would come. But it turns out we had 50 booths sold out over a month in advance. We had 250 attendees. Most of the attendees were people who work in the supply chain and wanted to sell things to the developers, to Commonwealth and to all of the other members of the FIA. And so the developers sent their buyers to this, their supply chain people.

42:05And it was really a lot of energy, a lot of excitement. And the reason they're doing this, we have a supply chain survey that we do every year. The reason they're doing this is because in 2026, fusion companies are going to spend at least$600 million on their supply chain. And so that's a market. And so the companies are coming in not because it's$600 million, but because it's going to grow a lot more in the years to come. And they see getting in early and being a supplier now, being able to show that they can do this reliably for one means that when in the next decade we're building tens and hundreds of these, they're going to scale up along with that.

42:51You know, you see it in all the other technology fields and such like that. You know, who's the one who actually, you know, what's the stock that did the best because of the introduction of the iPhone? Well, Apple did pretty well, but actually Corning did really well because they supplied the glass to the iPhone. So suppliers that can come in and find this new niche, this new market, lithium is one of them. It's not the only one. There's several fusion-specific things. But actually, what's really exciting is that there's lots of these large scale companies that are coming in that are doing things that are, you know, important for other industries, whether it's oil and gas or nuclear or, you know, just general power electronics.

43:36The defense industry. And the defense industry. So all of these coming in and they want to be a part of this market. They see it as a growth area. And it's just the supply chain is exciting. But also, like, this is how markets work. If you buy things, people will turn up to sell them. OK, let's talk about Rebco tape. Let's talk about low activation steel. I mean, Bob, do you have a supply chain ecosystem set up? We have a pretty good one. So we've built Spark. So Spark, to activate that supply chain, that was over a billion dollars into the supply chain. That included Rebco tape, a superconductor.

44:16We're the largest consumer of that in the world by a very, very large margin. And we've grown that niche thing by a factor of over 40. and the process dropped the price. Because each reactor requires, I think, tell me if I'm wrong, 10 ,000 km of tape, whereas previously we're only manufacturing 7 ,000 km across the globe, no? Yeah, yeah. And we've scaled it literally, just our own supply chain effort has scaled that one market by a factor of 40 in the last five years. And that's, you know, supply chains are interesting things because like when you show up with money, people will build businesses around it.

45:01And we've shown that over and over again in the things that we build. And the big parts are if you hit a limit of the world, like where you don't have enough stuff that you can dig out of the crust. Fusion doesn't ever really get to anything like that. Because even in a full-on fusion supply chain for like a full-on fusion economy, you're talking about an industry that is not the scale of, you know, like the auto industry. It's smaller than that. And so you're not talking about building an entirely, you know, new way to dig stuff up or process things or sell electricity. You're talking about an industry that looks kind of like what the GEs of the world today are, because that's what you're replacing.

45:47And you're replacing it with hardware that just doesn't consume fuel. And so, again, for the listeners, you know, you can get Revco tape from China, but there's a company in the United States. There's suppliers in Japan. so that the whole trade war you know do i need rare earth minerals from china thing doesn't really apply to fusion correct not not really and that's a key part about all the fusion technologies like in general it's the supply chain is about higher value add component level things it's not about like just how much stuff can i put through a system how much oil can i put through a How much, you know, rare earths can I put into lots and lots of cars?

46:31It's about a laser amplifier or superconducting tape or power capacitors. Like, these are things that are generally high value add, low material input. That makes it very exciting. Go ahead, Andrew, come in. Yeah. So because this is fundamentally a manufactured product instead of a mined product or a drilled product, it's a manufactured product. But that also means that policy is important for where that manufacturing happens. And, you know, the manufacturing can happen in the United States, can happen in Europe, can happen in Japan, can happen in China. And policy has an important role to play on attracting that manufacturing.

47:20So it's kind of all to play for right now in that world where people get things. It is a global marketplace right now. Companies are buying these things from all over the world. But governments in 2026, everybody wants to talk about manufacturing, wants to talk about, you know, reshoring things. So industrial policy, they're putting their thumb on the scale. And so that thumb on the scale will have an impact on where these things are made and where the components are made for it. So it's really important. A lot of the work I do here in Washington and the work FIA does in Brussels and London and Tokyo and elsewhere is saying, hey, guys, it's all to play for here.

48:08Where do you want to scale this up? How do you want to incentivize this? Because if it's not, there's a chance that this thing gets invented in the United States or in Germany, UK, Japan, but then ends up getting built in China, just like the solar power economy, just like these other sorts of things. It doesn't have to be. It's not written. There is nothing that says that this is the way it's going to go. But if we just sit back, and I'm generally a free market guy, you may have heard that, but it is, if you just sit back and let the markets work, the ones who don't respect the markets are going to be the ones that put their thumb on the scale at the heaviest amount.

48:53Right, because I'm going to ask about the economics of fusion power. I don't know, Bob, do you quote a number? Do you say if you're going to be supplying power to the grid? And as you say, the early 2030s, what the cost of that might be? Yeah, we don't quote a number, but we do know that it's competitive with the PGM costs. And the reason for that is pretty fundamental. It's your infusion, you're building something. The raw inputs to this are the vast majority of that is just steel. And you have to manufacture it, you have to put it together, you have to do a lot of value add. But we're at the very beginning of that on the first of a kinds.

49:32And it's manufacturing type learning rates. And then you have this asset that you don't have to pay to continually feed every day. Yeah, okay, upkeep, maintenance people. But that's a really small cost, which means that the overall cost of electricity is really about the financing cost and the manufacturing processes. And those are both things that over time, historically in all industries have come down. So that's an interesting analogy to nuclear fission because, of course, those plants operate for 50 years and the return on them when you get past the initial build cost is quite high. So is fusion going to be the same thing?

50:14Are these plants, are they 50-year plants, 100-year plants, 10-year plants? How does that look? Probably more like 10 to 30-year plans to start, partly because they'll obsolete themselves. We're at the birth of something here. And that's what happened with fission. But over time, there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't be like today, the fission plants. But they have an important part to it, which is the fuel, much lower fuel costs, because you don't have the enrichment of uranium, or the government ties to that. And then also, the regulatory costs are much lower. And so there's reasons to believe that this could look like the economics of early fission, not the economics of recent fission.

50:56So, Andrew, when you talk about policy being important, then, in terms of where the deployment of fusion power happens, what does the industry really need then? What can governments do to make sure that they do actually attract that investment and get the growth in the industry that you say is possible? Yeah, we look at it from really two sides. One is the supply chain side and the other is the building side. And you see this in every new industry, new energy industry, new defense industry, every new major industry comes along. The government has a role in this. And let's be clear, fusion research has been government funded research for 50, 60 years all around the world.

51:39We're all standing on the shoulders of the science that has been done in that for a long time. And so governments are going to play a role in how this gets deployed and where. And so on the supply chain side, you know, when we're here in Washington or elsewhere, we're talking about tax credits, incentives to make sure that it is treated the same as any other emerging clean technology. So, for instance, under the Biden era IRA, any solar wind battery manufacturing that's done in the United States gets roughly a 30 percent tax credit. Fusion is not eligible for that. So, you know, supply chain companies that want to supply to American fusion companies.

52:26Well, if they're doing something that that is kind of similar, they're they're just going to gravitate towards doing the the existing clean energy. So we're asking for a level playing field there. So there's a bill in Congress on that that, you know, we think has a good chance of passing. And then on the other side, it's supporting the development of the pilot plants, the building of these proof of concept machines, and then especially the pilot plants. The first of a kind, the pilots are never going to be the best, right? This is the one where you show how it works and you show how you get it off the ground.

53:02And so we actually have a program that Department of Energy is running called the Milestone-Based Public-Private Partnership. It's built on actually how NASA supported SpaceX and the private space industry. It is milestone-based. So what that means is that when you hit a target that you've prearranged with the DOE, you get funding for that at about 50 percent cost share is what it's identified to be. The problem is, so this has been set up. There's eight American companies that are part of it. Commonwealth is one of them. And it's really important in incentivizing and growing it. The problem is, is that it's only, I think, 70 million has been allocated so far.

53:50A further 100 million or so has been appropriated, but not yet put out. And so this is actually split eight ways is not going to build you a pilot plan. It's not going to get you across the line. And you look at what's happening in advanced nuclear, where they have the ARDP program. Congress just put a further$3 billion into that in January. You look at other emerging technologies and, you know, it's in the billions of dollars scale. And so when we start thinking about how this moves forward, how to incentivize it, we need to get that going and activated. This is the way it works. Right. So something that I've heard people say in the industry, for instance, is that in terms of sort of technology readiness, new fusion plants are pretty well on a par with small modular reactors using nuclear fission.

54:47But I mean, probably a few of those projects are a bit more advanced, but certainly in terms of kind of getting to commerciality and getting to scale, those two industries are kind of on a par, you would say. And therefore, what should be treated in a similar way by policy. Yeah, exactly right. But just to make a little bit of a distinction, we're having a struggle with the halo fuel supply chain for SMRs. And what I'm hearing Bob say is that we don't need to have tritium breeding to get these early fusion plants off the ground. Is that correct? Yeah, they do it within themselves. And Andrew, I just want to get back to that point you were raising earlier about the wider industry landscape.

55:37We've obviously talked a lot about Commonwealth and what they're doing and getting this first plant online in whatever it is, five, six, seven, eight years. you're saying there are quite a few other companies. I can't remember exactly how many you said, but there are definitely a number of other companies that are on a pretty similar timescale looking to have their first plants operational. Is that right? So there is 56 fusion companies we've identified in the world. They are all moving at speed and very quickly. At this point, Commonwealth is the one that's going to be the first. There's a couple of others that are potentially going to give them a run for their money.

56:21But there is a first mover thing that's happening here. And I think they're kind of dragging a lot of the industry along with them. It's really been kind of they're almost breaking the trail. You know, when you're hiking in snow, it's hard to be the first one. And then those that follow on have a little bit of an easier way. And so I think that's kind of happening with the rest of the industry here, whether it's magnetic, laser, magneto inertial, various other ways. You know, fusion's hard. Let's not forget that. Fusion is hard. 56 companies. There's not going to be 56 commercial fusion companies in the world.

57:02A lot of them are going to fail, whether it's failing because of physics or failing because of business practices. And so there's going to be a lot of pivots, a lot of changes. Everything's going to change in the next five to 10 years in this industry as it really grows up, becomes commercial and that sort of stuff. So the answer is the industry is all aiming to get pilot plants on the grid in the 2030s. CFS is probably going to be the one that gets there first. Maybe the Chinese might be there in the 2030s, early 2030s as well. And there's a couple of American companies, a couple of German companies that are going to be giving them a run for their money in the early 2030s.

57:47when we start getting into the later 2030s, that's the timeframe when a lot of the others will be jumping on. Right. So as you say, a lot of change expected in the next five to 10 years, certainly a very, very exciting time. I want to end by thinking about the longer term perspective and where you think fusion power might ultimately get to, let's say, 25 years from now, 30 years from now as i say going back to the uh the the science fiction stories we've grown up on fusion powers everything in those kind of worlds yeah 100 they just run on exactly everything just runs like you so it's very very easy it can all be solved that way do you think we are actually going to get to that point is it ultimately going to be the case that if fusion works it is going to be the dominant source for power generation in the world.

58:44I think a bit about fission, where nuclear fission, again, probably when it first emerged in the 1960s, 1970s, people got very excited about it. People said, this is the thing that is going to dominate power generation forever. It actually got to, I think, a peak of about 17, 18 % of global power generation in the mid-90s has since actually dropped off quite a bit. Still very important, but it's probably now only about 9 or 10 % of global power. So question, what is the realistic future for fusion? Is it going to be a bit like that, where it'll be kind of part of the mix and will operate alongside fossil plants and solar and wind and whatever else?

59:29Or do you think it really has the capability to displace everything else and become, as I say, essentially the predominant source of power generation that everybody uses in the world. Think big. Yeah, yeah. So I have a bit of a privilege, you know, because of what CFS is, you know, it's an energy company, tech company. I have a privilege of being in different rooms. And so the question on, answer to this type of question, there's like the Sarah Week level answer, which is like, energy's hard. it moves very slow you will build lots of plants and even in that scenario where like a fusion got to 20 of world energy it's an industry that is like the size of the renewable industry and if that industry in fusion if you have like a even somewhat dominant player you get like a ramco like so like that is a great outcome for the world that's a great outcome for fusion that's a great outcome for investors and companies that's like the sarah we crowd view there's another view which is fusion has attributes that we've never seen in our energy system before that are decoupled that is not energy as a natural resource but energy as a technology truly as a technology and anytime we've seen that change we've seen drastic changes in society around it and so there's an abundance point of view that if you could build fusion power plants at rate like a single car factory like one car factory can make fusion power plants at the rate that you would like replace global energy in like 10 years like if you could do it at that level you could get to a different place as a society and so that's the intriguing part about fusion is it has this outcome spectrum that has everything from okay we get another way to boil water to we get something that looks like science fiction and we're gonna run that experiment and it's happening like right now.

1:01:28And is it by analogy then could be more like, I mean, it's not going to be as easy to build and install as solar panels, which, you know, in the sort of straighter Hormuz context, you know, we've seen Pakistan and some other countries just run with solar panels in a way that no one in the fossil fuel industry predicted. I think we're going to see the same thing with electrified vehicles. I was talking to someone the other day about Uber has some scooter, business now in Nairobi and everybody's jumping on the back of other people's scooters and that's how they're getting around and it's all electrified.

1:02:05So is there some kind of a more of a barrier because you have to build a big centralized plant? But you talked about some of these 50 megawatt plants. So just try to understand the manufacturing scale up piece. Yeah, I think it's actually going to be, Bob said, an auto factory. I mean, think of it like an aircraft factory. The Boeing factory outside of Seattle is giant and it's huge. And those are some of the most complicated machines built in human history. And they crank them out one a day and it just cranks and cranks out and you see these things flying everywhere you go. And it is a massive, complex thing.

1:02:54And there is no reason that fusion can't be doing something like that. And that's where it gets into this change. And I'm asked this question some, and I'll often say it's like when fusion comes along, first you're going to feel like nothing's happened because it's a pure plug and play. You turn off a fossil fuel plant and you put a fusion plant in its place, and really nothing's going to feel like it's changed. And then you're going to look back at some point and say, wow, everything's changed. And the fundamental way that humans interact with energy, I think it cannot be overstated, especially in a time when we're talking about the Strait of Hormuz, especially in a time when we're talking about pipelines from Russia carrying natural gas.

1:03:40This is the thing that decouples energy from geopolitics. This is the thing that means that no dictator can say, I'm using my energy as a weapon. And that's honestly the reason why I got into this. That's the reason why I think it solved so many real problems. If we as a nation or as a company can just say, hey, you need energy, I'll sell it to you. And And I'm going to sell it to you because it's manufactured, not because I happen to be on a place where there's just a bunch of oil or a bunch of minerals in the ground. It's because I have a strong scientific manufacturing economy and I'll sell it to you.

1:04:25It just fundamentally changes how we look at energy, how we think about energy. And that's really exciting. Yeah. As you say, it is a really, really very exciting prospect. It's been fantastic talking to you both about it today. Unfortunately, we do have to leave it there. But thanks very much for coming on the show. Thank you very much, Andrew. Thank you. Thanks very much, Bob. Thank you. Many thanks for joining us. Look forward to hearing more about the fusion industry as it develops over, as we've been saying, this very, very exciting period we're now coming into. Many thanks, Amy. It's just been a great discussion.

1:04:57I've learned so much. So thanks, Bob. Thanks, Andrew, for helping us understand what could be a really revolutionary industry. Yeah, absolutely. Look forward to talking to you again, Amy, I'm sure, very soon. Many thanks to our producer, Molly Merwin. And above all, many thanks to all of you for listening. Please do leave a comment, leave a review, get in touch on social media. We really value your feedback. So please do keep that coming. And we'll be back very soon with all the latest news and views on the future of energy. Until then, goodbye.

1:05:34you