99.9% of Conflict Arises Because People See The World Differently with Amy Shepley

0:01Light to that, Sparkfire Nation. JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire. brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like The Hustle Daily Show. Today, we'll be breaking down how 99.9 % of conflict arises because people see the world differently. To drop these value bombs, I brought Amy Shepley into EO Fire Studios, Berkman President. Amy is a third-generation Berkman family leader with 20 years of experience working with organizational behavior and perception. And today, Fire Nation, we'll be talking about the perception paradox, building a company in our own image.

0:36And we'll actually be getting really detailed about my Berkman score and oh so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Amy and our sponsors. Success Story, hosted by Scott D. Clary, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Success Story features Q &A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, and conversations on sales, marketing, business startups, and entrepreneurship. A recent episode discussing the billion-dollar health secret, with the founder and CEO of Whoop is a must listen. Listen to success story wherever you get your podcasts.

1:12I have a question for you, Fire Nation. Do you feel like your life is optimized or do you feel like you're leaving a lot in the table when it comes to health, wealth, and relationships? If you think you could use some personal guidance in optimizing your life, let me help. I've created a program called Optimize where I will personally work with you one-on-one to get to know you, your life, your goals, and your dreams. If you wanna learn more about this program, visit eofire.com slash optimize. Amy, I'm excited to chat today because as I mentioned in the introduction, 99.9 % of conflict arises because people see the world differently.

1:47That's just a fact. So I want to start today's conversation by chatting about the perception paradox. What is this and how does it apply to today's world? That's right. So as you mentioned, 99.9 % of conflict arises because people see the world differently. And so why that matters, especially in a business context, is that it's first a recognition that each person is experiencing the world in a completely unique way. And in our database, we have millions of Berkmans and we have not found two identical Berkmans. And so when you think about just that layer of complexity and based on what we measure, how differently we're all experiencing the world.

2:33And then you imagine that's not taking in a lot of other factors that are also impacting how we perceive the world, how we view the world and experience the world. But when you're building a business, the challenge is that the people that are the most valuable to you are the people that see the world most differently from you. But the paradox is the people that see the world most differently from you are inherently the people that are the hardest to work with because they are making sense of the world in such a different way. And so you have this dynamic where you need to intentionally seek out people that are very different from you and that see the world very differently from you and be able to acknowledge that those people are by definition going to be more challenging to work with because it's going to take more time to get to a solution because you're utilizing different information.

3:23You're seeing different things to solve the problem. And so that's ultimately what we call the perception paradox, why people are so difficult and why most people, when they tell you what's the biggest challenge about running a company, 99 % of the time they'll say it's the people. We're going to dive into this a lot deeper today because the Berkman method, I mean, I just love this process. I mean, it's a leader in organizational and team performance. I went through and I actually took this Berkman test. And then Amy and I actually sat. I think it was an hour long call. It might have even been like 70 minutes.

4:01And we went through this and I learned so many interesting things about myself. So take a second and step back. Tell us exactly what the Berkman method is. And then we'll maybe kind of chat a little bit about my experience with it and have some fun. Yeah, for sure. So the Berkman method is it's kind of categorized as a personality assessment. It's actually the most sophisticated psychometrically valid assessment in the marketplace. And so if you're looking for one that is rooted in science and that's reliable and valid, you know, the Berkman is going to fit in that category. And while we were sort of categorized as a personality assessment, that the truth is we are actually an assessment of perception.

4:43And so when a person fills out the Berkman questionnaire and we look at their results, we're actually getting to put on a pair of glasses and see how they are viewing the world, how they're making sense of the world, what they see about themselves, how they notice themselves, and then how they experience other people and what they expect of other people. And so what you get is you get this really whole human assessment because we're able to measure not only how a person shows up and how they're most productive in this external part of their personality, but we're also able to measure the hidden internal side of their personality that we don't immediately see and that we usually learn through trial and error about a person.

5:31And so by combining this external part of a person and this internal personality, you get this whole view of who that person is and how they're really experiencing the world and how they're how they're viewing the world and seeing people. And then that goes into what they think is appropriate, how they think you build trust with people or how people build trust with them, how they view respect, what they think is respectful or disrespectful. And the challenging part about it is that when we take those kind of concepts of these are big core issues, right? Trust, respect. And the reality is, is that half of the population thinks that you build respect and trust in one way.

6:17And the other half of the population thinks you build it in the very opposite way. And so how you think is the right way to develop rapport, trust, respect for somebody, you may be inadvertently doing something that they feel is very disrespectful. And this is why now we start to see how this is a breeding ground for conflict. and I think one of the most unfortunate things that I see when I'm working with leaders and teams and organizations is how often the person had really good intentions and maybe even went out of their way to do what they thought was the right thing to support somebody and it just happened to be the wrong roadmap and they end up with conflict or you know fighting or challenges and the reality is everyone was having the best of intentions.

7:09But if you don't have this recognition that, you know, we have to ask and be curious and we can't assume what we think is how you develop trust or build trust is the same way for everybody else because it's actually different for every single person. Every single person has a different roadmap for how you build trust with them. And trust is so fundamental that when it's there and it exists, your team and your company will thrive. And when it's not there, it's very difficult for a company to be successful. That was my biggest aha moment when I was going through my Berkman results with you is how you can think that you're being respectful to somebody else because that's how you view respectfulness.

7:52That's how you think people are being respectful to you. So you just kind of flip it and you're like, oh, well, if I think that's what respect is like when people are dealing with me, if I deal like that with them and I feel that way, then of course, they're going to feel like I'm respecting them. But it can be the exact opposite and it can actually be disrespectful to certain people. And that's what was really kind of fascinating to me. So let's kind of take a step and maybe say, you know, because this is the thing. I think this is fun. Like my audience, a lot of them have listened to me for one episode, 10 episodes, 100 episodes.

8:22I was just actually interviewing somebody who said, John, I found you in 2013. I've listened to thousands of episodes. Like I feel like I know you. So a lot of Fire Nation knows me on some level because, you know, we share just some personal things during our income reports and then just they come out in interviews in general. So kind of talk us through a little bit about my experience with you with Berkman because I think Fire Nation would find that interesting. One of the things that's really interesting about your Berkman that we talked about is that you have this very extroverted exterior.

8:57So you are sociable, you're outgoing, you know, there's just a lot of energy to kind of this exterior side of you, So the way we experience you as a listener, you seem like one of the most extroverted, extroverted people that could exist. But what we don't see, and maybe even the more important part of you, is that your internal personality or what we call your needs are very, very introverted. And so you need a lot of time alone. You need a lot of time to think. Probably, you know, your creativity comes out when you've got that alone time and that downtime. And that would be counterintuitive to the average person, because when we see someone that's very social, we think they want to be around people.

9:41They want to be in groups. They want a lot of social interaction. And what while that's true for you, maybe for a little while or a few hours or maybe even a day that needs to be partnered with a lot of downtime to kind of recharge those social energy batteries. and so you're probably much more introverted than your listeners would expect and I think you know that's that was one thing that that came out about your Berkman. And it was really interesting to hear that from you too because as I was listening to you say that I'm like that is so true because I really do when I'm around people and I'm talking to you right now and I'm interviewing individuals or I'm in real life with people I'm presenting on stage I feel very extroverted.

10:25I feel very energized and alive, and I love that. But then I will say, I do love just being by myself, which I think a lot of people may not expect. I can go down by my pool with a book, and I don't have to talk to anybody literally for days. I mean, literally for days. And I can be in total joy there. So I'm really kind of both ends of the spectrum, which I found really interesting that the Berkman showed that because I feel that way, but I don't always think about it because of some of the things that you shared. So that was really cool. Keep going. So what we would say is, you know, you are this highly social person, but the only way you can stay productive as a highly social person is to have downtime where you're able to recharge.

11:09And that's really what the Berkman, what we focus on is we have these internal needs. And if we know what our needs are, then we're able to honor our needs. And when we get our needs met, we stay in our productive mode. When we don't get our needs met, then we move into what we call stress behavior, which is highly unproductive and not fun for us or anyone that has to work with us. And so when we work with employees or leaders or executives, you know, the usual, yes, it's interesting to say you're a social person, but I can get on the phone and have a conversation with you. And that's pretty obvious.

11:40It's the hidden part, that internal personality, that's really the key to you being a happy, healthy, satisfied employee that is actually almost more important. And because they're hidden, it's hard to know that about a person unless you have a lot of interactions with them and you learn through trial and error. Well, and that's something I wanted to talk about before we moved on, Amy, because I did find that so interesting that if you have a team of like one person, three people, 10 people, 20 people on your team and you just know that you're struggling, really connecting with them, really making a bond, really getting through to them.

12:16And you just know that feeling and you're trying everything. Guess what? You just may be trying the wrong things. And so that's where the light bulb was me was like, wow, like if I have my team take the Berkman and then I really understand how I need to interact individually with each one of those individuals, then I could really have an impact. And I mean, it just, to me, would be so cool to kind of bring one of these individuals in that I was having a hard time interacting with, utilize what I now know about them through Berkman, and just see the change. And I could just feel the change. Like, that would be really powerful to me.

12:49And we're going to keep diving deeper into this, Fire Nation, when we get back from thanking our sponsors. If you're a marketer, then you know what it's like to feel like you're moving in a hundred different directions at any given time, like you're spread too thin. Between creating content, launching campaigns, generating and nurturing leads, and more, you barely have a moment to breathe, let alone do your best marketing. What if there was a better way? This is where HubSpot and Breeze, its new built-in AI, come in. When you combine the power of Marketing Hub and Content Hub, you can have your best quarter every quarter.

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14:00We first discovered Notion thanks to one of our sponsors, and it made it so easy to track talking points, due dates, deliverables, and more. Every time we had a question about the sponsorship, all we had to do was check Notion and all the details were laid out for us. It made the entire process simple and straightforward. That's because Notion combines your notes, docs, and projects into one space that's simple and beautifully designed. And now it has the power of AI built right inside of it, which means you don't have to jump between your work and a separate AI power tool to make magic happen.

14:30Notion AI helps you work faster, write better, and think bigger, doing tasks that normally take you hours and just seconds. Try Notion for free when you go to notion.com slash john lee Dumas. That's all lowercase letters, notion.com slash john lee Dumas to try the powerful, easy to use Notion AI today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show, notion.com slash John Lee Dumas. I have a question for you, Fire Nation. Do you feel like your life is optimized or do you feel like you're leaving a lot on the table when it comes to health, wealth, and relationships? After interviewing over 4 ,500 successful entrepreneurs, I have found that every one of them have optimized their life to a high level.

15:12In over 12 years of running a multi-seven-figure-a-year business myself, while staying healthy and raising a wonderful family, I figured out how to optimize my life to an amazing level. It didn't happen automatically. There was a lot of struggles, but through mentorship from others and a lot of intentional work, I got there. And if you think you could use some personal guidance in optimizing your life, let me help. I've created a program called Optimize, where I will personally work with you one-on-one to get to know you, your life, your goals, and your dreams. Then over a three-month time frame, we will create a fully optimized life that will set you up for a lifetime of optimized health, wealth, and relationships based off your goals and your dreams.

15:53An optimized life does not happen automatically. It only happens through intentional work and guidance from someone who has reached that level that you are striving for. My goal is to turn you into a fully optimized human based off of your life goals. If you want to learn more about this program, visit eofire.com slash optimize. We'll jump on a call. We'll discuss the specifics of the program. And if we both feel to fit, we'll talk about next steps. eofire.com slash optimize. Amy, we're back. And I mean, the Berkman, it's such a fascinating, cool project that I went through with you. And I learned just a lot about myself and the whole Berkman method in general.

16:32So keep going here. What do you want to touch upon next? Okay. So because we're talking about conflict today, I want to talk about you and your approach to conflict. So we measure a construct, a component called assertiveness. And there are people that have a very high assertiveness score, which means they are comfortable speaking up, directing, debating, playing devil's advocate. That is something that comes very naturally to them. On the other end of that scale, you have people that are more suggestive. They like to say things in a more kind of polite, less directive, less opinionated way. And so they're on the low end of the scale.

17:14Your score, do you want to guess? Do you remember what your score is if you were high or low? I believe I was very high. Very high. So you're a 98. The highest you can get is a 99, right? So and it makes a lot of sense. Like, look what you do for a living. You know, you have to speak and banter and, you know, share your opinion. And you have this sort of persuasive podcast. And so that makes a lot of sense for what you do. But what that means is that for you, if there's an issue, you're like, hey, let's talk about it. Let's get it on the table. Let's work through it openly and go back and forth so that we can get to a resolution.

17:48And that's going to be very comfortable for you. And that's going to feel respectful for you. But if you're working with someone that has a very low assertiveness score, that's going to feel very aggressive and uncomfortable for them. So they're probably going to respond by shutting down and withdrawing, or they might just get quiet and you may think that the situation is resolved, but actually they just tapped out and decided not to have the conversation with you. You move on thinking everything is great, not realizing nothing was actually resolved. And so this is just a great example of how for you, when there's an issue, you're like, let's get in a room and talk through it.

18:27Let's go back and forth and figure out how we can work through it. And that kind of verbal conflict moment is pretty comfortable for you. And you may even find sometimes when you're debating people, you get energized by that. But what's important to know is that more than half the population is highly uncomfortable with that type of communication. It feels very uncomfortable. It feels emotionally charged. It feels like conflict. And I think this is one of the most common places where you're going to see conflict develop inside an organization. conversation and and that's why you have to be able to say you know how do we find a space where um i would love to kind of dig into this conversation and figure out what went wrong but where can we do that so that it doesn't feel like i'm attacking you and you can be heard and get your you know your point of view across to me um because a quieter more or less assertive person they're just not going to engage with you that way so you're not ever going to be able to resolve the issue because there's not a place for that resolution to happen.

19:29This was really powerful for me because I kind of realized that maybe, hey, when I'm in these situations and I'm dealing with somebody like Kate, who I really feel like needs to take the Berkman as well. I mean, she would just probably react completely different than me in that type of a situation. And, you know, hey, why would I want to cause anything but a good scenario for a situation like that? And now having some more understanding about how I operate and how she operates could really help me kind of focus and plan how to have those type of conversations or how to act in those type of engagements going forward.

20:04So man, this is interesting. Amy, keep going. So another place that you have in your Berkman that impacts conflict is a component called emotional energy. Emotional energy is how much you kind of see our emotions coming out. And that's passion, that's excitement, that's frustration, that's feeling discouraged. It's how much you kind of wear your emotions on your exterior. Everybody has emotions. It's a human condition. So it's not a measure of if you have emotions, but it's how much you openly express those emotions. And your emotional energy score is very high. Again, it makes sense, right? You're passionate, you get excited about the topic that you're discussing.

20:45And we can almost like feel the The emotional energy coming through, right? And so for you, that feels like engagement. That feels like connection. And when other people show up that way, you feel like, you know, what they're saying is resonating with you. However, again, half the population is uncomfortable with that amount of emotional energy, right? It feels like it's too much. It can feel overwhelming. And they don't, and this is always an interesting thing. It feels inappropriate, right? And so I use those words like trust, respect, inappropriate, appropriate, because this is why these things are so challenging.

21:24It's not just like a preference or I like, it kind of digs in at who we are and it has this like reaction for us that feels, you know, either I like your emotional energy and I feel connected to you, which would be true for me because I also have high emotional energy or your emotional energy feels like it's too much. I may feel like you're trying to push ideas onto me and that it would shut me down. And so, again, it's taking something that we would assume everybody would appreciate that level of passion and excitement around the topic. And it's like, well, actually, that's not true. Half the population is pretty uncomfortable with that.

22:02And it can shut them down and make them even mistrust you. So if Fire Nation is hearing this and they're like, this is interesting, I'm resonating with what Amy's saying because I kind of feel like I know John on some levels from listening to a lot of his shows and it really is kind of clicking on his assertiveness, his just being an extrovert and all these different things. And I'm wondering what I am or my team is and how I can use that in my life. What would you say is a great way for Fire Nation to take a next step? If they wanted to learn more about the Berkman Method, if they wanted to learn more about how they can use it for themselves, their loved ones, their team, their business, tell us more.

22:37Okay. So I'm actually really excited about this. We have never done this before. So this is going to be a first specifically for Fire Nation, but we are offering for anybody that would like to go through the Berkman, take the questionnaire, and then we would give them access to the MyBerkman platform. And what's going to be fun is if they decide to take us up on our offer, you're going to be in there. So, they're actually going to be able to go in there, see their Berkman data, see your Berkman data, and get to experience how this kind of shows up in the workplace and how you would use a tool like this in the workplace.

23:14And one of the scores that's in there, it's the Berkman, it's called a super cue, but it's actually the see the world differently score. And so it tells you the percentage that you see the world differently, let's say from you. So we may see the world, you know, 98 % differently, which means we're pretty much experiencing the world in opposite ways, right? That's going to be a person that you're probably going to find in meetings like they kind of jump to a conclusion or their ideas seem kind of just out of line or not on track with what you would expect. And so now the point of that is not to say don't be around people that see the world differently.

23:54It's actually like, hey, these are the people that you need even more, right? Especially if you're building a company and you're an entrepreneur, you need to surround yourself with people who see the world differently because when they see the world differently, they're going to cover your blind spots. We each get this kind of perceptual imprint that I believe you're born with. I don't think it's developed through experience. I think you were born this way. But we all get this certain combination and no human gets all of the skills, right? We get a certain amount of skills. And so when you find someone that sees the world very differently from you, you're now able to leverage the skills that they have that may be your blind spots.

24:36Every strength has a good side and a bad side, right? So if we think about your assertiveness, your assertiveness is great. It's probably one of the reasons you're so successful. And sometimes that assertiveness can get you in trouble. You may be a little domineering or you may get bossy, right? Or you may get kind of energized by disagreeing with people. We could talk to your wife about that. But the point is, is that the more you have people around you that are different, the more you're tapping into the blind spots, the different skill sets, and you're really kind of safeguarding yourself and the company to not all be running off the cliff in the same direction.

25:15What's interesting is that we find there's this idea that people hire in their own image. We like to hire people that feel very comfortable and natural to us. Those where we're like, gosh, we just have this instant rapport. We just get each other. You know, the minute I met them, I just we got each other. And it's like that on the surface seems like a great thing. I would say you need to be careful because there's a good chance if it comes so easily to you that you are very similar to that person, which means you are doubling down on your strengths and you're doubling down on your blind spots.

25:48Fire Nation, this is why we're talking about why 99.9 % of conflict arises because people see the world differently. That is just a fact. People see the world differently. And if you put yourself in a position where you are able to see the world in a way that somebody else that's important to you, that's meaningful to you, sees it, man, it's going to be such a better interaction for all the reasons we talked about. So Amy, give us that call to action one more time. Where does Fire Nation go for this generous offer? Yes. So if they are interested, they can go to www.berkman.com forward slash Fire Nation.